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View Full Version : Should Twins have Revere play every day in Rochester?



John Bonnes
03-25-2012, 08:26 PM
Darin Mastoianni could be the 4th OF and Revere could be playing everyday in Rochester and figuring out ways to get on base, whether it be bunting, taking pitches, etc. I gotta say, this makes a lot more sense to me than him hanging around the dugout giving high 5s and occasionally replacing Willingham in left field. Or worse, tempting Gardy to start him in right field.

Seth Stohs
03-25-2012, 08:30 PM
I like that idea better. Revere is still a little younger than Benson, Parmelee and Dozier who we obviously believe need to play every day. Mastroianni already was optioned, so they couldn't promote him again until Opening Day. The other thing is the Mastroianni can play 3 OF spots and he's been playing mainly 2B since he got optioned.

Rochester OF of Revere, Benson and Tosoni sounds good to me too. With Wilkin Ramirez and Matt Carson getting some time and DHing.

silverslugger
03-25-2012, 08:43 PM
Is Revere at best a 4th outfielder who will be used as late inning defensive and baserunning replacement? If so, he stays in the bigs. If not, and if you want to increase his value as a starting MLB OF then you may want to send him down to learn some things. I cringe at your option though. The Twins should want to bring the best 25 north and DM is not one of those, period, end of sentence.

Neinstein
03-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Fantastic idea all around. Revere could definitely benefit from playing everyday and focusing on a few skill sets.
His speed would be missed, but if Mastroianni was #4... Darin can steal base also!

Harrison Greeley III
03-25-2012, 09:06 PM
I like his defense and his speed. They aren't exactly missing out on much if he's mainly a pinch runner and late inning defensive sub till an outfielder gets hurt. It's just kind of an embarrassing way to use a former first round pick.

Twinsoholic
03-25-2012, 09:22 PM
I agree with Harrison. Having a speed merchant and a fly ball defensive wiz is a greater than great plus on a team. Revere can get plenty of coaching about bunting on the Twins, he can spell Span some days as well as replace Willingham in left or Parmalee or Doumit in right field in tight ball games. He can be a stolen base threat in the late innings of tight games as a pinch runner. He can also be used as a bunter in tight games to get a ball down and put pressure on the defense to get him out as he moves a runner along. He can create havoc. Plus, he has hit at all minor league levels. If he hits the cutoff man with his throws on singles and doubles, he should be fine.

Jeff P
03-25-2012, 09:33 PM
Is Revere at best a 4th outfielder who will be used as late inning defensive and baserunning replacement? .

I think that is the key and the assumption of most here that he is a 4th outfielder. He has some important strengths but the arm and lack of any power have people questioning his upside. I would like to see him stay and I think he can get a fair amount of action filling in for Span and Willingham, as well as late game replacement in the outfield and as a pinch runner.

Bark's Lounge
03-25-2012, 09:36 PM
If Ben Revere is the best candidate for the 4th OF role, then he should be the pick. I'm not sure much more seasoning is necessary as he is what he is. He is fast, has a knack for making a fantastic defensive play, has no arm, can hit a little, but without any pop, does not walk and seasoning from what I have seen does not teach patience at the plate. He is more suited to start the year as a back up than Benson or Mastroianni. Benson has to start as his upside is pretty big and he has a chance to be an impact player. Mastroianni is not an answer, he is AAA material. Although Revere was a late round 1st round pick, he was more projected to be a 2nd-3rd round pick, but he is definitely not a bust. The MLB draft is for the most part a crap shoot. The Twins were criticized for picking Revere in the 1st round, but he has value and he has not disappointed. A 4th outfielder is better than a minor league washout.

jorgenswest
03-25-2012, 09:47 PM
I had the same thought. Given Span's and to a smaller extent Morneau's uncertain health outlook, Revere will likely be needed on an everyday basis at some point this year. I wonder if he will perform better in that role following regular play in Rochester. They certainly could give him 4-8 weeks in AAA.

John Bonnes
03-25-2012, 10:00 PM
Here's the thing: Revere never mastered AAA. He only had 141 plate appearances there and was rushed to the majors last year because of all the injuries. Through AA, his OBP was never lower than .371. Read that last sentence again.

In his short time in AAA, it was just .338 and then it went to .310 in the majors. With that kind of OBP, he's just a fourth outfielder. But if it gets anywhere near the level it was, he's an elite leadoff hitter who plays killer defense. I don't know why we would throw away that future just to have a slight upgrade at a roster spot that means next to nothing to the success of this team.

Bark's Lounge
03-25-2012, 10:28 PM
By no means am I insulting Ben Revere. Juan Pierre has a lifetime .345 OBP and from what I have seen he projects to be pretty much the same kind of player, It is definite that he will have to hit, hit, and hit. It is no guarantee that Revere can match Pierre's production. The Sabremetricians seemingly think Pierre is a worthless player. Revere will have to pick up his game a bit. As far as throwing away his upside... are we killing the next Rickey Henderson? Are we inhibiting the next Tim Raines?

Seth Stohs
03-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Juan Pierre was a very good player the first 4-5 years of his career. When he got the big contract that free agency brought, he was way overpaid for that style of play, especially once the SB and the OBP started to drop. I think if Revere can be what Pierre was the first 5-6 years of his career, that would be great.

Bark's Lounge
03-25-2012, 11:22 PM
It would be great, I hope it happens. But it is theoretical.

asmus_ndsu
03-25-2012, 11:31 PM
I completely understand where everyone is coming from on this topic, to the seasoned analytical fan this definitely makes sense for the team.

The thing that tears me apart is the fact that Ben was the main reason for me (and I'm sure many other fans) To get exited to watch a game in last years dismal season. Nobody can refute that this kid can single handedly make a twins game exciting to watch.

I understand that he could definitely learn in triple-a but how can you keep a guy like that out of the camera? I guess this has got to count for something but makes this a tough topic.

scottz
03-26-2012, 12:05 AM
By no means am I insulting Ben Revere. Juan Pierre has a lifetime .345 OBP and from what I have seen he projects to be pretty much the same kind of player, It is definite that he will have to hit, hit, and hit. It is no guarantee that Revere can match Pierre's production. The Sabremetricians seemingly think Pierre is a worthless player. Revere will have to pick up his game a bit. As far as throwing away his upside... are we killing the next Rickey Henderson? Are we inhibiting the next Tim Raines?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...The next Rickey Henderson? The guy who had 297 home runs and a .401 OBP and an .820 OPS in his career? THAT Rickey Henderson? I'm pretty sure we're not killing the next Rickey Henderson.

And Tim Raines? 170 home runs and a .385 OBP with an .810 OPS? Nope. Not killing the next one of him either.

Revere's career OBP is .305 and his career OPS is .606. Also, he is currently 297 HRs behind Henderson and 170 HRs behind Raines for his career. Opposing outfielders started playing so far in last year that opposing teams had to start doing extra laundry for the infielders uniforms to get the tobacco stains off their backs. And let's not even talk about assists...or rather, let's talk about them. After Thome got traded last year and came back to Target Field as a member of the Indians, he was on second base when a ball got hit to Revere; JIM THOME scored EASILY on a ball that Revere had to charge.

I like watching Revere run around the bases and the OF, and he made a few really A+++ catches last year. But I think the fields in Williamsport, PA annually see hitters with more power and better arms. The idea that it somehow is a travesty that he might only play in the last two innings of a game is really baffling to me. He should enter the game in the 7th or 8th inning as a pinch runner, steal a base, score on a bloop single, then play defense. He should play CF and depending on the other fielders in the game, Span should move to either RF or LF. While he is in the game, the 2B and SS should know that on any ball hit to CF, they need to make their cut-off position 50-100 feet deeper, depending on where the ball is hit.

SEC
03-26-2012, 03:48 AM
If Revere isn't going to play every day, what is he going to learn by sitting the bench? I think it would be more beneficial for his career development for him to play every day in Rochester. On the other side, who is going to give Span a day off in this situation? The Twins almost need him in the bigs as a back up who can "play" (not big on the idea of him playing RF) all 3 outfield positions.

071063
03-26-2012, 07:38 AM
I think he has to start on the major league roster until the OF of Willingham, Span and Parmalee / Plouffe prove they can handle it defensively. Then, if they prove that, the Twins can think about sending Revere to AAA to play everyday.

diehardtwinsfan
03-26-2012, 10:19 AM
As I see it, the question for Revere is whether or not he can develop some gap power and keep outfielders honest. As it is right now, the guy is going to get lots of strikes simply because pitchers don't fear him. I agree he needs to take more walks, but what I don't see is opposing pitchers fearing throwing strikes constantly because they know he won't make them pay.

As such, the career OBP of .371 that John mentioned is a bit misstated. In the minors, lots of pitchers are working refining secondary pitches and control issues. As such, he's going to get more walks. Despite this, the OBP John mentioned was largely driven by contact, not walks. I don't see these things happening in the big leagues... I just don't. No one is going to nibble with the guy when they know that 1/3 of his plate appearances are weak grounders to the pitcher and the bulk of the remaining ones won't make it out of the infield.

Then you have to deal with his arm. I don't trust him in center or right because it's that bad. I could see an 8th/9th inning replacement/spot start where the goal is to keep guys off base to start those innings. I'd put Revere in left and dramatically upgrade the defense.

So to me, it comes down to whether he can develop some gap power. If he can, pitchers will nibble more, and the idea of him taking a walk is suddenly more likely. If that's the case, I'd send him to Rochester. But at this point, I'd think the org should have a pretty good idea if it can show. I'm betting against it. He's a 4th OF (and a pretty good one).

Jim Crikket
03-26-2012, 11:55 AM
To me, this comes down to what role the Twins see Revere playing over the next 3-4 years.

If they really believe he's Span's heir in CF, whether that be later this year following a trade or a year or two from now, then I agree that he's better off playing every day in CF at Rochester than being the 4th OF in Minnesota.

BUT... Benson is going to be in Rochester, too, right? And aren't there indications that the Twins believe Benson has greater potential to take over CF for Span? Wouldn't Revere then be taking CF innings away from Benson in Rochester?

If they do feel Benson is more likely to be their CF over the next half-decade or more, then "4th OF and late inning guy" may be all that the organization is expecting Revere to be going forward. In that case, he might as well start filling that role right now.

Shane Wahl
03-27-2012, 02:53 PM
Revere, Benson, and Tosoni should be the opening OF in Rochester. People shouldn't overlook AAA as a learning environment. Revere needs time there instead of playing 20 innings a week at most for the Twins.

spideyo
03-27-2012, 03:42 PM
I love how people are so ready to jump all over Ben Revere's offensive stats. Has everyone forgotten he hasn't even played a full year of Major League Ball? We've got a pretty small sample size of anything he's done above the AA level

Yoshii
03-27-2012, 04:05 PM
There is no way Revere is going to be sent down before the start of the season.

Shane Wahl
03-27-2012, 04:25 PM
There is no way Revere is going to be sent down before the start of the season.

Well, Mastroianni couldn't be called up until opening day anyway.

Seamwoker
03-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Revere is not destined to play in Target Field. He needs to play in Center Field to be fully optimized, and Span blocks him now and Benson/Hicks/etc will pass him up later. He can not produce the numbers at a corner outfield spot. He should be at AAA for showcasing and hope for the best.

tsteff36
03-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Revere is certainly exciting to watch cover ground in the outfield, but if all he really does well is run and catch, he may not have the kind of versatility the Twins need from practically every player they bring north. It both fascinates and frustrates me that my favorite baseball team leans on the versatility card. I'd love to see them have the sort of lineup they could trot out everyday (with mix and match as needed), but injuries and payroll concerns create that need. Alot of these guys like Hughes, Plouffe and Parmalee are still unproven with small sample sizes to show they really belong. Revere should probably be here, though, until guys like Joe Benson and Aaron Hicks are ready to make the jump. Late inning defense and pinch runner and hopefully good enough with the bat to lay down a sac bunt every now and then would be how I would use him, with a spot start on occasion.

Shane Wahl
03-27-2012, 04:51 PM
Hopefully, the demotion comes for the start of season, although I suppose Rochester starts a bit later, right? Revere could be up for a few games and then switch with Mastroianni. They should not simply give up on the guy as many here are already doing. Keeping him around as a 4th OF is basically giving up on him.

Ultima Ratio
03-27-2012, 06:05 PM
As I see it the plan for Revere is this: 4th outfielder until 1) Span is hurt or concussion symptoms or otherwise plays lousy 2) Twins stink it up and trade span THEN 1 of 2 lead to Revere taking over CF. If not 1 or 2, then Revere remains the 4th OF until Willingham is made full time DH, Plouffe and Parmelee show they can't handle a cover OF spot. I still think Revere gets plenty of ABs this seasons, with Plouffe relegated to LHP spot starts in right or left only.

Ultima Ratio
03-27-2012, 06:07 PM
Unless they plan on trading Revere, I see no advantage to him showing off and saving MLB service time in AAA. And since he's the only real CF backup available, he is the 4th OF.

shawntheroad
03-27-2012, 06:57 PM
If the Twins see Revere as an everyday player long-term, they should send him to AAA. If they see him as a 4th OF only, he would improve the team by being on the roster.

birdwatcher
03-27-2012, 06:57 PM
Are we overvaluing the learning potential for Revere in Rochester vs. Minnesota? If he spells Willingham and Span often enough, and replaces Willingham defensively in left often enough, won't he get enough reps to improve in those areas that he has any potential for improvement? His power, even gap power, is unlikely to improve a great deal. His arm won't get much better. He will not increase his walks significantly against MLB pitching. BUT, he's a nice 4th outfielder right now despite these flaws. I want the Rochester reps to go to the underrated Tosoni and to Benson. And who knows? Any one of Hicks, Arcia, or Morales could have a monster year and be knocking at the door in Rochester. I personally don't project Revere to be much more than a 20% better version of what he is, and that's pretty good.

Thrylos
03-27-2012, 08:24 PM
Let's see where does Rochester's OF stands as of today: Benson, Tosoni, Mastroianni, Carson, Dinkelman, Ramirez. At least there is some breathing room with the releases of Dustin Martin and Scott Pearce, but still I do not see all those guys getting lots of PAs other than 1 or 2. Would a swap of Mastroianni with Revere make sense? Sure. or Maybe.

But here is the problem: The Twins' are suposedly set at LF including the 2014 season and at CF including at least that much and maybe 2015 (with Span.) Revere cannot play RF. He has 2 more option years left so in 2014 he will be out of options. Benson will be knocking on the door hard in 2013 and Hicks/Arcia/Morales in 2014. It very quickly becomes a numbers game...

lecroy24fan
03-27-2012, 08:24 PM
Send him to Rochester to learn 2B.

spideyo
03-28-2012, 08:42 AM
I still think that if they can get Revere on base more, most likely by getting him to focus on beating out ground ball hits rather than trying to hit for power, our best OF right now is Revere in CF and Span in RF.

The first time I saw Revere hit, he hit a ground ball to the 1b and beat it out for a single. That's exciting baseball, and that's something that not many guys can do. He needs some Willie Mays-Hays batting lessons, and he can be a very dangerous weapon

Shane Wahl
03-28-2012, 09:12 AM
I still think that if they can get Revere on base more, most likely by getting him to focus on beating out ground ball hits rather than trying to hit for power, our best OF right now is Revere in CF and Span in RF.

The first time I saw Revere hit, he hit a ground ball to the 1b and beat it out for a single. That's exciting baseball, and that's something that not many guys can do. He needs some Willie Mays-Hays batting lessons, and he can be a very dangerous weapon

Well it is alarming that Josh Willingham could force a total realignment because he can't make a simple transition as a veteran professional baseball player. It is certainly true that Span is better in RF than Revere, who it would be insane to put in RF, but Revere in CF is a problem. If they are concerned about his defense, how in the hell does it make sense to keep him around as a defensive replacement late in games? When I originally read the news, I did not see (somehow) that Revere was actually being considered as the RF instead of being sent to AAA to start the year.

spideyo
03-28-2012, 09:16 AM
Other than his arm, are they really that concerned about his defense?

Harrison Greeley III
03-28-2012, 09:16 AM
Dude is a swinger. He's good at making contact, and when you have his speed you're going to have a relatively high BABIP in the long run because he's beating out tapped ground balls that are outs for other guys. He's not going to walk and he's not going to strikeout. This is the kind of hitter he's going to be, the organization should not even bother trying to turn him into something he's not. I think he makes for a great OF depth play in the case of an injury or two as well as a pinch runner/late inning defensive replacement. That's the ceiling here and he's already near it. I say bring him north.

shaggybaj
03-28-2012, 09:44 AM
Here's the thing: Revere never mastered AAA. He only had 141 plate appearances there and was rushed to the majors last year because of all the injuries. Through AA, his OBP was never lower than .371. Read that last sentence again.

In his short time in AAA, it was just .338 and then it went to .310 in the majors. With that kind of OBP, he's just a fourth outfielder. But if it gets anywhere near the level it was, he's an elite leadoff hitter who plays killer defense. I don't know why we would throw away that future just to have a slight upgrade at a roster spot that means next to nothing to the success of this team.


I think this is the key. I would send him down. If he can learn to bunt and get a handful more walks he might be able to get the on base percentage to a place where he is a viable lead off hitter. This would make him more marketable as a trade chip. Remember the only real strength the Twins have in the minors is a large number of outfielders. They need to use some of them to fill other holes. If Revere has some potential to be a lead-off guy, that potential should be developed. He then gives them more viable trade options.

BeefMaster
03-28-2012, 11:13 AM
Revere is not destined to play in Target Field. He needs to play in Center Field to be fully optimized, and Span blocks him now and Benson/Hicks/etc will pass him up later. He can not produce the numbers at a corner outfield spot.

I'm not entirely willing to concede this. Obviously, the offense isn't there, but there's a decent chance that Revere could be a league-average left fielder even with replacement-level offense - he put up a UZR of almost 15 last year (yes, small sample size) in less than full-time duty. If he can be 15-20 runs above average in left field over a full season while getting the OBP up to around .330, he's an acceptable starter - no star, but at or above league average.

Are we completely certain that he can't play right? Yeah, weak arm, but surely the fact that he gets to basically every ball hit in the air outweighs the time or two a week where a guy goes from first to third when he wouldn't have otherwise, right? I'd put him there over Cuddyer in a heartbeat, noodle arm or no.

Harrison Greeley III
03-28-2012, 12:59 PM
I really don't care about a weak arm. Cuddyer had a great arm and he was still costing the Twins runs defensively in RF. If Revere can chase down balls that average fielders can't chase and not embarrass himself playing the bank off of the limestone, then he can play right field in the 8th after pinch running for Parmalee as much as possible.

mike wants wins
03-28-2012, 01:39 PM
The weak arm is an issue, but it's more important to catch a ball than to keep a guy from advancing. How often will a guy be on first with no outs, and get to third on Revere when he wouldn't have gotten there on another player? One time a week, two? How often will those guys then score? IF his OBP were higher, he clearly has a great shot to be at least league average as an OFer in terms of offensive+defensive production. I don't get the whole "4th OFer means they are giving up on him or holding him back" thing at all. Play him 1 time a week in LF, one time a week in CF, pinch run and defensive substitute the games they are ahead, let him hit late in the game when they are way behind and likely won't come back.....there are plenty of ABs and defensive opportunities for him to continue to grow, even as a 4th OFer.

Besides, Benson is a few months away from being up on a regular basis, if he cuts down on his SO% at all. If not now, when, for Revere?