PDA

View Full Version : Minor League Cuts



Jeremy Nygaard
03-22-2013, 08:10 AM
TwinsDaily has learned that the Twins have made their first rounds of minor league cuts this morning. Leaving the organization - but wishing them luck on their journey - are:

- LP Cole Nelson, 23, who played his prep ball at Peterson HS in Edina was acquired in the Delmon Young trade from the Tigers. Nelson played collegiately at Auburn and pitched 82 innings for the Miracle last year. The 6-7 lefty spent most of last season in the starting rotation.

- OF/C Danny Rams, 24, was the Twins 2nd round pick in 2007 and was considered one of the most powerful prep bats in the draft. He was never able to make it past Fort Myers, where he spent his last two seasons.

- P Patrick Arnold, 24, was signed by the Twins out of the Frontier League (Indy Ball) on January 12th of this year.

- P Tyler Herr, 22, the 6-8 right-handed was one of the last remaining players from the 2009 draft, quite a feat for the 44th round selection out of Katy, Texas. Tyler pitched out of E-town's bullpen last season.

- P Gerardo Ramirez, 19, was signed as an international free agent on March 12, 2011 and played two seasons for the GCL Twins. Despite posting a 4-1 record last season, he walked almost as many batters (10) as he struck out (13) and recorded an ERA of 6.62.

Best of luck to these young gentlemen as they take the next steps in their lives.

The Roster & Payroll (http://twinsdaily.com/1272-minnesota-twins-roster-payroll-2013.html)page will reflect these - and the rest of today's moves - shortly.

stringer bell
03-22-2013, 08:32 AM
I took note of Rams last week at spring training. He is a good sized guy and he took some good BP swings, but I think the die was cast when he no longer was considered a catcher.

Rosterman
03-22-2013, 09:33 AM
Rams needed to catch, and he's all but stopped. Sad...he does have a decent bat. be interesting to see if he stays alive in indie ball. Tyler Herr is the son of Tommy Herr! Be interesting to see what other names disappear between now and early April.

ashburyjohn
03-22-2013, 11:40 AM
So the dumping of Delmon comes down to just Oliveros after all. Just a little more salt rubbed in the wound.

ashburyjohn
03-22-2013, 11:47 AM
With Rams and Nelson, I guess the lesson is that repeating high-A and not excelling the second time does not do wonders for your resume. With the other two, it's not clear to me from their record that they had proved they could not develop - and the clock wasn't running out for them, e.g. having to be added to the 40-man, was it?

maxisagod
03-22-2013, 02:27 PM
With the other two, it's not clear to me from their record that they had proved they could not develop - and the clock wasn't running out for them, e.g. having to be added to the 40-man, was it?
No, if they were released it had more to do with someone better and probably younger also was in line for a spot on the roster. Between free agents and minor league free agents it becomes a numbers game. They look at the rosters and make the call and 19 times out of 20 it never comes back to bit you in the behind.

Seth Stohs
03-23-2013, 06:45 AM
Rams is a very good guy. He can hit a bit, when he makes contact, but the fact that he wasn't catching anymore did hurt when his other position is left field. I think that he just couldn't have played at AA and that's why he was let go. He would have been a minor league free agent after the season. I hope he gets picked up somewhere.

Oliveros still has a chance to be good. I think that the Twins got plenty for Young and it was addition by subtraction. The Tigers may wonder if they gave up too much for him.

Gerardo Ramirez is only 19, but he wasn't particularly good in his second season at the GCL and certainly doesn't profile to improve much.

Halsey Hall
03-23-2013, 08:06 AM
It was mentioned to me by one of the workers here that Danny Rams hurt his shoulder and they wanted him to have surgery, but he declined, all but ending his playing here.

ashburyjohn
03-23-2013, 12:08 PM
Oliveros still has a chance to be good. I think that the Twins got plenty for Young and it was addition by subtraction. The Tigers may wonder if they gave up too much for him.

I'm assuming this is at least in part a response to my "salt in the wound" comment, and just to clarify, the "wound" in this case is the whole Delmon saga, and I recognize that he turned in at least one passably strong year for the Twins during his reign (of mostly terror). I don't think another GM could have gotten more, and the "salt" is just that whatever was gotten at the time, it now turns out to be less.

Mr. Brooks
03-23-2013, 01:34 PM
I'm assuming this is at least in part a response to my "salt in the wound" comment, and just to clarify, the "wound" in this case is the whole Delmon saga, and I recognize that he turned in at least one passably strong year for the Twins during his reign (of mostly terror). I don't think another GM could have gotten more, and the "salt" is just that whatever was gotten at the time, it now turns out to be less.

Couldn't have gotten more even if we had traded him in the offseason after 2010, when his value was the highest it was going to be?
Just once I wish our GM would sell high on someone, instead of selling low every dang time. (Young, Liriano, Hardy,)

IdahoPilgrim
03-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Couldn't have gotten more even if we had traded him in the offseason after 2010, when his value was the highest it was going to be?
Just once I wish our GM would sell high on someone, instead of selling low every dang time. (Young, Liriano, Hardy,)

I don't think you can include Liriano in that - to sell him at the high you would have had to make a deal after 2010, when he was 26 and just put up the best season of his career. Can you imagine the outcry there would have been, on this board and elsewhere, if they had traded him then?

After that time, the gig was up. Everybody knew he was erratic at best and there was no market for him. I give Ryan credit for getting Escobar in return.

Also, if I remember, everybody was hoping that 2011 we would be in contention. You don't sell your top players in the offseason when you're hoping to make a postseason run the next year.

Mr. Brooks
03-23-2013, 03:51 PM
I don't think you can include Liriano in that - to sell him at the high you would have had to make a deal after 2010, when he was 26 and just put up the best season of his career. Can you imagine the outcry there would have been, on this board and elsewhere, if they had traded him then?

After that time, the gig was up. Everybody knew he was erratic at best and there was no market for him. I give Ryan credit for getting Escobar in return.

Also, if I remember, everybody was hoping that 2011 we would be in contention. You don't sell your top players in the offseason when you're hoping to make a postseason run the next year.

Bolded #1: An MLB GM should not be making moves based on what is/is not going to please the message board posters.
There were people in the media who thought that he would never repeat 2010, and should be traded.
In fact, the FO themselves refused to offer an extension, and there were reports of trade offers from the Yankees that Spring, so its not like they didnt consider it.

Bolded part #2: The Rays do this all the time. Its smart business if you are going to be a small to mid market team.
The FO was never going to lock him up long term. When the Rays FO makes that determination, they move a player while their value is high, they dont wait, just because they want to make sure they can contend, they trust their scouting and their prospects and they know they can make the trade, re stock the farm, AND still compete.

As loaded as our farm system is now, just think how loaded it would be if they traded both Liriano and Delmon at the peak of their value.

stringer bell
03-23-2013, 04:29 PM
I think that by the time Delmon wore out his welcome in MN, his value was not much. Witness his free agent contract after an outstanding postseason in 2012. I remember one sportswriter (Souhan) lobbying for a Delmon trade after his big year, but the CW at that point was that he had turned a corner and was a potential All-Star. I don't know what the problem was with Hardy. Publicly he wasn't a problem, but he didn't hit much and suffered with nagging injuries. Why the team decided to trade him at that point is mystery to me, unless it was purely a contract issue.

Rosterman
03-23-2013, 04:41 PM
Hardy was a contract issue. The Twins thought he would get $8-10 in arbitration and just didn't feel he was worth it. Hardy ended up signing a friendly extension with the Orioles. Go figure. I think the Twins were set to sign Liriano long-term, just wanted to see what his 2011 was like. It wasn't. They thought, let's see 2012. It wasn't. There were big hopes that he would be worthy of a long-term extension. Young, the same arbitration issue. He was going to get large dollars because of his high signing while with the Rays. Yes, the Twins needed to trade him during the off-season, they didn't. They got something from the Tigers, who actually thought about not resigning him, but he had the great post-season. Interesting where both of these players ended up and at what cost.

But I would agree that now was the time to move on Willingham...except you don't want to give the signal that we sign free agents to friendly deals and then trade them, or do we? I still like the option, when you look at the big picture, to get a good look at Parmelee and decide if you want to keep or trade Morneau during the season, with the open-ended option that you can always offer him $13+ million and make HIM refuse it and still get a draft choice.

IdahoPilgrim
03-23-2013, 05:38 PM
Bolded part #2: The Rays do this all the time. Its smart business if you are going to be a small to mid market team.
The FO was never going to lock him up long term. When the Rays FO makes that determination, they move a player while their value is high, they dont wait, just because they want to make sure they can contend, they trust their scouting and their prospects and they know they can make the trade, re stock the farm, AND still compete.

As loaded as our farm system is now, just think how loaded it would be if they traded both Liriano and Delmon at the peak of their value.

And I have no problem with that if you are projecting to finish middle of the pack or on the fringe of contention. But if you are expecting to make a run at the world series, you don't get rid of your best pieces just before the start of the campaign. In hindsight, they weren't in contention, and I know there were those who were very skeptical going into 2011, but they were very clearly in the minority. I wasn't participating on this site then (and indeed it didn't exist) but I remember the anticipation prior to 2011. It wasn't all just promotional hype; many ordinary and average fans (and I assume many within the organization) expected 2011 to be better than 2010.

At some point you have to stop selling and try to make a run; you can't be in perpetual rebuild mode. In hindsight they (seriously) miscalculated, but I can't fault their decision during that offseason.

The past two offseasons, of course, are a different matter.

Thrylos
03-23-2013, 05:55 PM
As loaded as our farm system is now, just think how loaded it would be if they traded both Liriano and Delmon at the peak of their value.

Substitute "Liriano" and "Delmon" (it is history and nobody can change this) for "Morneau" and "Willingham".
Same?
Any reason for Ryan not to trade Willingham and Morneau any time soon?

jorgenswest
03-23-2013, 06:33 PM
Substitute "Liriano" and "Delmon" (it is history and nobody can change this) for "Morneau" and "Willingham".
Same?
Any reason for Ryan not to trade Willingham and Morneau any time soon?

I agree. I would add Burton, Perkins, Doumit and Carroll to that list.

Perkins probably has the most value. The best predictor of future arm injuries is previous arm injuries. Perkins isan injury away from no value. What would he a Tigers part with to get him?

Burton may have been a one year wonder. The Twins signed him to an extension buying next year when they didn't need to. He was under team control. Let's find someone to take him and next year's contract soon.

Can they find anyone else who believes Doumit is a catcher? If they can, get something and get out of the two year commitment. If you watched today's game, you saw he Twins, Doumit's and Correia's frustration with the strike zone. Post game comments about Correia's need to throw more strikes. No argument from me there. I think our catcher needs to give more help.

It might not be long before the Dodgers or Cardinals feel the need for a temporary solution at SS. Andrus and Hardy will be expensive. Maybe they will see Carroll as a better short term solution.

stringer bell
03-23-2013, 10:30 PM
I posted on another thread that I think a Morneau trade is a near certainty. Not as sure on The Hammer, because he has another year on his contract and is playing for well less than market value. I am not a great catching mind, but Doumit isn't a perfect fit here. It is nice that he has some versatility and is a switch hitter, but he should be paired with a righthanded defense-first guy. I think that two of three of Doumit, Morneau and Willingham will be gone by 8/1. Burton could go at the deadline as well, but I think he will do a good job as long as he is healthy. I would think that Duensing would have deadline value as well and would be a trade candidate.

kab21
03-23-2013, 11:45 PM
Substitute "Liriano" and "Delmon" (it is history and nobody can change this) for "Morneau" and "Willingham".
Same?
Any reason for Ryan not to trade Willingham and Morneau any time soon?

These are completely different situations. The Twins should be trading Willy and Morneau this season but that doesn't mean they should have traded Young and Liriano for prospects after their best seasons. They were a competitive team and despite not really liking Young ever you don't trade him only to put an unknown out there.

old nurse
03-24-2013, 04:50 AM
Bolded part #2: The Rays do this all the time. Its smart business if you are going to be a small to mid market team.
The FO was never going to lock him up long term. When the Rays FO makes that determination, they move a player while their value is high, they dont wait, just because they want to make sure they can contend, they trust their scouting and their prospects and they know they can make the trade, re stock the farm, AND still compete.

As loaded as our farm system is now, just think how loaded it would be if they traded both Liriano and Delmon at the peak of their value.

The Rays have to trade because they do not have financial resources to resign their players. Minnesota should be in a little different boat. As with the Santana trade, if the Twins were trying to maximize their return , potential trading partners went elsewhere.

jokin
03-24-2013, 07:12 AM
Bolded #1: An MLB GM should not be making moves based on what is/is not going to please the message board posters.
There were people in the media who thought that he would never repeat 2010, and should be traded.
In fact, the FO themselves refused to offer an extension, and there were reports of trade offers from the Yankees that Spring, so its not like they didnt consider it.

Bolded part #2: The Rays do this all the time. Its smart business if you are going to be a small to mid market team.
The FO was never going to lock him up long term. When the Rays FO makes that determination, they move a player while their value is high, they dont wait, just because they want to make sure they can contend, they trust their scouting and their prospects and they know they can make the trade, re stock the farm, AND still compete.

As loaded as our farm system is now, just think how loaded it would be if they traded both Liriano and Delmon at the peak of their value.

Spot on X Deux, Mr Brooks.

jokin
03-24-2013, 07:21 AM
These are completely different situations. The Twins should be trading Willy and Morneau this season but that doesn't mean they should have traded Young and Liriano for prospects after their best seasons. They were a competitive team and despite not really liking Young ever you don't trade him only to put an unknown out there.

No, it's not the point to put an unknown out there- but to remain a "competitive team" as a mid-market franchise, you constantly have to be reloading from one of your few areas of strength- as you are at distinct disadvantages in: 1) luring the top free agents, 2) flexibility to expand the payroll as your core top players look to re-up, and 3) being repeatedly hampered by unfavorable draft position as a perenially winning team.

jokin
03-24-2013, 07:26 AM
At some point you have to stop selling and try to make a run; you can't be in perpetual rebuild mode. In hindsight they (seriously) miscalculated, but I can't fault their decision during that offseason.

The past two offseasons, of course, are a different matter.

No, you don't have have to be in constant rebuild mode, to put a fine point to how it is done by the Rays- constant reload mode.

And I do fault their offseason considerations sinde 2010, especially starting out in a brand new ballpark.

kab21
03-24-2013, 07:39 AM
No, it's not the point to put an unknown out there- but to remain a "competitive team" as a mid-market franchise, you constantly have to be reloading from one of your few areas of strength- as you are at distinct disadvantages in: 1) luring the top free agents, 2) flexibility to expand the payroll as your core top players look to re-up, and 3) being repeatedly hampered by unfavorable draft position as a perenially winning team.

The Twins had a payroll of 100+M that season. There is absolutely no reason that they should have unloaded two starters for prospects to stock the farm system when they were a contending team. If anything you do the opposite.

Rosterman
03-24-2013, 09:17 AM
The Twins need to handle free agents better, their own (Nathan, Cuddyer, Kubel, Liriano) as well as create an environment where others will want to sign. We keep talking about the Twins NOT getting such-and-such pitchers this off-season, who signed reasonable contracts elsewhere. Would they have done the same in Minnesota?

roger
03-24-2013, 09:43 AM
Well that was a lot of reading looking to see if there have been any more cuts!

Too Much Twins
03-24-2013, 09:55 AM
Well that was a lot of reading looking to see if there have been any more cuts!

+1. And I may have gleaned from my skimming that Thrylos declared Delmon and Morneau comparable.

Mr. Brooks
03-24-2013, 11:06 AM
And I have no problem with that if you are projecting to finish middle of the pack or on the fringe of contention. But if you are expecting to make a run at the world series, you don't get rid of your best pieces just before the start of the campaign. In hindsight, they weren't in contention, and I know there were those who were very skeptical going into 2011, but they were very clearly in the minority. I wasn't participating on this site then (and indeed it didn't exist) but I remember the anticipation prior to 2011. It wasn't all just promotional hype; many ordinary and average fans (and I assume many within the organization) expected 2011 to be better than 2010.

At some point you have to stop selling and try to make a run; you can't be in perpetual rebuild mode. In hindsight they (seriously) miscalculated, but I can't fault their decision during that offseason.

The past two offseasons, of course, are a different matter.

You don't think the Rays go into every season expecting to compete for a WS?
I couldnt disagree more.

Mr. Brooks
03-24-2013, 11:10 AM
The Rays have to trade because they do not have financial resources to resign their players. Minnesota should be in a little different boat. As with the Santana trade, if the Twins were trying to maximize their return , potential trading partners went elsewhere.

My point wasnt to compare payrolls with Tampa, my point was that it CAN be done. You can trade some of your major pieces at their peak value AND still be competitive. You just have to have very competent scouts and FO people.

jokin
03-25-2013, 04:09 AM
The Twins had a payroll of 100+M that season. There is absolutely no reason that they should have unloaded two starters for prospects to stock the farm system when they were a contending team. If anything you do the opposite.

Who said anything about "only" stocking the farm system? Get better players to improve areas of weakness, by being smart and trading guys at peak value in career years for prospects and/or immediate help***- AND through FA acquisition with all of the supposed new-found, "50% of revenues" and $114M "payroll flexibility" that Target Field afforded them.

***See- "Tampa Bay Rays"

jokin
03-25-2013, 04:10 AM
My point wasnt to compare payrolls with Tampa, my point was that it CAN be done. You can trade some of your major pieces at their peak value AND still be competitive. You just have to have very competent scouts and FO people.

For the umpteenth time, why hasn't someone on the Tampa Bay staff been hired away? Apparently too much culture clash and possible computer-sharing down-time taken away from the grey-haired guys upstairs at One Twins Way playing PacMan, Donkey Kong and Pete Rose Baseball on their Atari 2600s and Colecovision.

Mr. Brooks
03-25-2013, 07:31 AM
For the umpteenth time, why hasn't someone on the Tampa Bay staff been hired away? Apparently too much culture clash and possible computer-sharing down-time taken away from the grey-haired guys upstairs at One Twins Way playing PacMan, Donkey Kong and Pete Rose Baseball on their Atari 2600s and Colecovision.

So you dont think the Rays have good scouts and FO people?
Do you think that they just luckbox their way into being competitive year in and year out in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees, on 1/4 to 1/3 of the payroll?

jokin
03-25-2013, 09:53 AM
So you dont think the Rays have good scouts and FO people?
Do you think that they just luckbox their way into being competitive year in and year out in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees, on 1/4 to 1/3 of the payroll?

Uhh, are you responding to the wrong person? As my comments indicated, I'm most definitely in your camp on this issue.

Mr. Brooks
03-25-2013, 02:49 PM
Uhh, are you responding to the wrong person? As my comments indicated, I'm most definitely in your camp on this issue.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment. I thought you meant something like, "if they are so good, why hasnt anyone hired them away........."
My bad.

kab21
03-27-2013, 08:42 PM
Who said anything about "only" stocking the farm system? Get better players to improve areas of weakness, by being smart and trading guys at peak value in career years for prospects and/or immediate help***- AND through FA acquisition with all of the supposed new-found, "50% of revenues" and $114M "payroll flexibility" that Target Field afforded them.

***See- "Tampa Bay Rays"

The Twins had a payroll nearly twice that of the Rays. Your comparison sucks.

you are operating completely in hindsight using Young and Liriano as examples. Especially Liriano. He was pegged by many as the playoff ace that the Twins really needed. You don't trade that away when you are trying to advance in the playoffs and the rest of the staff is mostly made up of contact pitchers.