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View Full Version : Miller: Gardy wants more pop off the bench....



John Bonnes
02-21-2013, 02:41 PM
...and isn't necessarily committing to a 3rd catcher.


He said something else interesting after workouts, too: He's tired of feeling like he has no options in the late innings. Light-hitting infielders and spare catchers aren't enough, and Gardenhire said he hasn't even decided yet whether a third catcher will be necessary. "I'm going to have a better bench this year," Gardenhire said. "I told Terry [Ryan, the general manager], I'd like to have more pop off the bench."

First, I'll believe it when I see it. But it will be interesting to see of Ryan would consider signing a bench bat if Gardy has the guts to leave Butera waiting in Rochester.

I don't know if any of these guys look especially productive, but Carlos Lee, Derrek Lee and.....Jim Thome are all still unsigned.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/192323891.html

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 02:45 PM
It sounds like, if Gardy is going to take the fall for this team, he's going to do it on his terms. I like it.

mike wants wins
02-21-2013, 02:50 PM
Gardy should 100% have say in how the bench is made up, and Ryan should be responsible for getting him that bench. Of course, the Vikings said they'd use Allen in a rotation more to keep him fresh this last season......so like John, I'm in a wait and see mode.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 02:54 PM
Did he mean speed instead of pop? :-)

Boom Boom
02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
Replace Butera with a 24 pack of Diet Rite.

twinsnorth49
02-21-2013, 03:04 PM
It sounds like, if Gardy is going to take the fall for this team, he's going to do it on his terms. I like it.

+1, like it.

snepp
02-21-2013, 03:04 PM
First, I'll believe it when I see it.

Second, I'll believe it when I see it.

CDog
02-21-2013, 03:10 PM
I could maybe go back and try to find some evidence on my own, but can anyone remember what changed between the end of Spring Training '12 and whenever it was that Butera came up? They broke camp last year with only Mauer and Doumit as catchers. That makes me think it's possible they could do it again, but I would feel better if I could remember the reason (whether or not it's a good one) that they changed the situation, and especially if that reason had reverted to its state of last year at the end of spring.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 03:13 PM
I could maybe go back and try to find some evidence on my own, but can anyone remember what changed between the end of Spring Training '12 and whenever it was that Butera came up? They broke camp last year with only Mauer and Doumit as catchers. That makes me think it's possible they could do it again, but I would feel better if I could remember the reason (whether or not it's a good one) that they changed the situation, and especially if that reason had reverted to its state of last year at the end of spring.

I believe it's when Morneau was shelved for a couple weeks at the beginning of May that brought that along...

Riverbrian
02-21-2013, 03:17 PM
This is exactly what I personally wanted to hear.

I have high hopes for the offense this year... I think the starting lineup can score some runs... Knock some balls out of the park... I think the offense will do very nicely even with our SS's and 2B options.

However, Someone will have to be able to pinch hit for our lighter hitting options and we don't have that guy on our roster right now. It's our biggest offensive need in my opinion.

It's odd I know... But... having someone to pinch hit for our SS and 2B spots is a bigger issue than having a SS or 2B who needs to be pinch hit for.

They got to find someone... Thome... Derek or Carlos Lee... Vlad the Impaler... Jack Cust... Dallas MacPherson... Clement... Tie Domi... Someone with Power.

Oldgoat_MN
02-21-2013, 03:33 PM
II would be delighted with more pop off the bench.
Wonder where that will come from...
Arcia?

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 03:37 PM
Vlad is an interesting name. Righthanded, pull hitter, still 38.

He would be a horrible example to the younger guys of plate discipline though.

johnnydakota
02-21-2013, 03:40 PM
...and isn't necessarily committing to a 3rd catcher.



First, I'll believe it when I see it. But it will be interesting to see of Ryan would consider signing a bench bat if Gardy has the guts to leave Butera waiting in Rochester.

I don't know if any of these guys look especially productive, but Carlos Lee, Derrek Lee and.....Jim Thome are all still unsigned.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/192323891.html

Nice post John impressed ...

crarko
02-21-2013, 03:42 PM
Maybe that's why they were saving Molitor.

CDog
02-21-2013, 03:59 PM
Vlad is an interesting name. Righthanded, pull hitter, still 38.

He would be a horrible example to the younger guys of plate discipline though.

Counter-examples are sometimes very effective! Kind of like satire. Or something. "Here's what we were telling you not to do. You see it now?"

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 04:03 PM
Counter examples are only effective when the guy looks bad doing it though. A distant possibility, Vlad would be the best hitter on the team.

Riverbrian
02-21-2013, 04:04 PM
Counter-examples are sometimes very effective! Kind of like satire. Or something. "Here's what we were telling you not to do. You see it now?"

lol... What happened to the "Like" button... I don't want to post anything... I just want to like this comment!

TheLeviathan
02-21-2013, 04:40 PM
Man I want to believe this so bad......just can't. Gardy has defeated my will to believe in rationality with this team's roster construction. Fingers crossed.

diehardtwinsfan
02-21-2013, 04:44 PM
I'd like to believe this... wouldn't mind seeing Thome back here if he wanted to return...

Kwak
02-21-2013, 05:14 PM
Here goes. Twins wouldn't need "pop off the bench" if it was put in the lineup in the first place. Gardy probably has figured-out that every game situation late in the game Morneau will face a LHP and he needs a RHB who "has some pop". Had the Twins figured this out a few weeks ago, they could have signed said RHB "with some pop" for about $1MM plus some incentives--or shall I say re-signed.

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 05:19 PM
What's that? They should have re signed Delmon Young to pinch hit for Morneau?

PatMearesFan
02-21-2013, 05:29 PM
i know i bashed gardy in the other thread, but this is good to here. i am very glad he wants "pop" off the bench, which is a nice change of pace from the "POOP" that has been on our bench the last few years!!!!!

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 05:29 PM
i know i bashed gardy in the other thread, but this is good to here. i am very glad he wants "pop" off the bench, which is a nice change of pace from the "POOP" that has been on our bench the last few years!!!!!
A poop joke?

snepp
02-21-2013, 06:12 PM
What's wrong with poop jokes?

Thrylos
02-21-2013, 06:16 PM
.
I don't know if any of these guys look especially productive, but Carlos Lee, Derrek Lee and.....Jim Thome are all still unsigned.


I think that the Twins should fill the bench spot from the inside. Absolutely no reason to bring anyone that old (other than selling tickets if that is Thome) where they are. Colabello/Ramirez/Romero probably have more pop than Thome and the Lees at this point. Give them a chance.

old nurse
02-21-2013, 06:24 PM
Is Vladamir Guerro alive and well? To add pop from within, there was no AAA bats worth mentioning so why would you want another inferior bat, AA player, bat only? Colabello maybe.

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 06:43 PM
lol... What happened to the "Like" button... I don't want to post anything... I just want to like this comment!

+1, brother.

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 06:44 PM
What's wrong with poop jokes?

I honestly misread the headline to this article, in exactly that way.

Otwins
02-21-2013, 06:45 PM
A bench bat does make sense if you are going to have Florimon start at SS. I would not assume that gardy will part with Butera.While I like the idea of the minor league guys getting a chance, pinch hitting is a skill that takes time to develop. I doubt that our minor league players could adjust to the majors and pinch hitting. I read that Scott Rolen would like to play again but that Cincy was not interested. Wonder what he thinks of the Twins. If Plouffe struggles Rolen could spell him at 3B.

Seth Stohs
02-21-2013, 07:11 PM
II would be delighted with more pop off the bench.
Wonder where that will come from...
Arcia?

I can pretty much guarantee that Oswaldo Arcia will not be the bench bat. He needs to play!

righty8383
02-21-2013, 10:36 PM
Chris Colabello would be my choice for sure. limited in his fielding options. But I would love to see him get a shot.

Rick Niedermann
02-21-2013, 10:46 PM
Jeff Clement should be thrilled to hear Gardy say that. PH-1B-Emergency Catcher with Long Ball Power.

twinsnorth49
02-21-2013, 11:24 PM
http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/praying/smileys-praying-929024.gifI believe, I believe, I believe....

70charger
02-21-2013, 11:34 PM
What's wrong with poop jokes?

They're pretty ****ty.

snepp
02-22-2013, 12:08 AM
They're pretty ****ty.

Well that stinks.

CDog
02-22-2013, 03:01 PM
I believe it's when Morneau was shelved for a couple weeks at the beginning of May that brought that along...

Yes, that's WHEN Butera came up, but it doesn't solve the riddle of why (or more importantly why he stayed from then on). Morneau returned, and Butera stayed. Not to mention, there isn't even a direct link since they don't play the same position (the obvious indirect link is the primary catcher also plays 1B). At any rate, this question got stuck in my craw, so I decided to look at box scores to see if I could shed some light on what underlying difference in the lineup made it OK to start the season with no Butera, but made him stay once he got there. Bear with me...

The first fairly interesting observation I made, was that Doumit never DH'd in the first 20 games of the season. And Mauer only did four times. Morneau was DH'ing essentially every day.

Parmelee made the team out of Spring Training as the starting 1B. He started there 18 of the first 28 games. The general situation was Parmelee at 1B, Morneau DH'ing, Mauer catching. Doumit got an occasional start in RF, and otherwise would Catch while Mauer played 1B. After Game 22, Morneau went out for a couple of weeks. It seems like Mauer may have been banged up, but not fully injured as he caught Game 21, had 22 off, and then DH'd four games in a row.

Butera debuted in Game 25. From Game 29 to 36, Parmelee only got three starts at 1B, and with Morneau out that meant Mauer was playing half 1B and half C, while BUTERA caught the other half the time and Doumit DH'd. In Game 37, Doumit caught and tweaked his calf, remember? So he only DH'd from then until Game 49. Game 37 was also Morneau's return, but now he had been made the 1B instead of the DH (they were heading to interleague play AND Parmelee was sent down because he started out pretty awful).

What's this all mean? Well, as near as I can tell, the difference between pre-Butera, and when Morneau got back is that Morneau moved back to 1B making Doumit the frequent DH. When Doumit wasn't DH'ing after this point, it was often Mauer. It seems like MAYBE "they" felt OK with just two catchers when they had someone else DH'ing most of the time, but when the DH role was filled primarily by one of the two catchers, "they" felt there should be a third on the roster. To me, all this means it's likely there will be a third catcher if Doumit is the presumed first option at DH.

ThePuck
02-22-2013, 03:10 PM
Yes, that's WHEN Butera came up, but it doesn't solve the riddle of why (or more importantly why he stayed from then on). Morneau returned, and Butera stayed. Not to mention, there isn't even a direct link since they don't play the same position (the obvious indirect link is the primary catcher also plays 1B).

I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

Just my opinion

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

CDog
02-22-2013, 03:37 PM
I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

Just my opinion

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

Did Gardy get Mauer to go along with pretending the foul tip hit his knee and then keep him from catching for a week while Mauer went paitiently along with it? Who doctored the footage to make it look the ball hit just above the shin guard? Just wondering how deep this conspiracy theory goes. (That was meant to be funny before you, or anyone else, gets all upset about it.)

CDog
02-22-2013, 03:46 PM
I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

Just my opinion

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 22 games before Morneau's injury, and 5 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

mcrow
02-22-2013, 03:46 PM
If by "Pop" they mean some old guy , then Gardy is likely to get what he wants.

ThePuck
02-22-2013, 03:55 PM
As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 21 games before Morneau's injury, and 4 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

Funny as in peculiar...He only played 5 games when Morneau took his break in March...which was the time frame I specified in my post.

I'm gonna back away from this, because you seem to be getting testy and I'm not overly interested in having it escalate

Kwak
02-22-2013, 04:10 PM
As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 21 games before Morneau's injury, and 4 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

If I may be allowed to jump into your conversation let me introduce some other facts and see if they are illuminating to form a conclusion to your discussion concerning Butera, et al. Mauer's injury did heal and Morneau played regularly at 1B with few off-days. Butera played far more than "an emergency catcher". Butera's hitting for the rest of the season was substandard, but he was not demoted to AAA like Parmalee--he stayed with the Twins. Hermann was promoted in September but hit poorly in but a very small sample of ABs (18 I think).
Considering neither Hermann's nor Butera's 2012 season was strong at the MLB level why didn't the Twins sign "competition" for them? Why was Parmalee's poor hitting deemed for banishment but not Butera's? To respond "he needed AAA experience" isn't any more relevant to Parmalee than for Butera. To me, the real answer is derived from "Why was anybody signed to compete with Butera (and Hermann) to be a bench catcher for the Twins?" Those guys are plentiful, cheap, and can easily be dismissed without issue. The answer is easy.

CDog
02-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Funny as in peculiar...He only played 5 games when Morneau took his break in March...which was the time frame I specified in my post.

I'm gonna back away from this, because you seem to be getting testy and I'm not overly interested in having it escalate

Not feeling testy at all (which is why I made the extra point out to indicate that in my first reply). I'm assuming you meant May, not March. My point was that during the games Morneau was out (which corresponded to when Butera first arrived), Mauer basically filled in for him. Up to the point he went out hurt (21 games), Morneau played almost exclusively DH with a few (four) games at 1B sprinkled in. During the 14 games he was out, Mauer started at DH 4 times and 1B 5. The original "starting first baseman" was Parmelee and he continued to be when Morneau was out.

CDog
02-22-2013, 04:47 PM
If I may be allowed to jump into your conversation let me introduce some other facts and see if they are illuminating to form a conclusion to your discussion concerning Butera, et al. Mauer's injury did heal and Morneau played regularly at 1B with few off-days. Butera played far more than "an emergency catcher". Butera's hitting for the rest of the season was substandard, but he was not demoted to AAA like Parmalee--he stayed with the Twins. Hermann was promoted in September but hit poorly in but a very small sample of ABs (18 I think).
Considering neither Hermann's nor Butera's 2012 season was strong at the MLB level why didn't the Twins sign "competition" for them? Why was Parmalee's poor hitting deemed for banishment but not Butera's? To respond "he needed AAA experience" isn't any more relevant to Parmalee than for Butera. To me, the real answer is derived from "Why was anybody signed to compete with Butera (and Hermann) to be a bench catcher for the Twins?" Those guys are plentiful, cheap, and can easily be dismissed without issue. The answer is easy.

No, this conversation is being held in the Private Section....oh, wait, nevermind....

I think your post gets at a lot of things that are different than what I was wondering about in this topic, though. My angle was to take the original post's thought that Gardy wanted more pop, presuming that a good place to do that would be to replace Butera, and then to try and see how likely this was based on what was different at the start of last year (when he wasn't on the 25-man) and the remainder (when he was).

Your facts that Butera played more than "emergency" levels is undisputed, but my point was to figure out WHY. I maintain it's because Morneau moved from DH where he started the year to 1B when he returned from injury. This left Mauer and Doumit DH'ing frequently (almost always one or the other), and I believe THAT is the reason Butera was kept and played (I have made no conclusion about whether this is right or wrong, simply that it was "the reason").

My guess as to why Parmelee was demoted when he hit poorly and Butera was not: Parmelee had been the STARTING 1B. His replacement became Justin Morneau. Butera was the third-most-frequently used catcher. His replacement was...Hermann?

My guess as to why nobody from outside the organization was brought in to possibly be that third catcher instead of the aforementioned group: (This space intentionally left blank)

ThePuck
02-22-2013, 04:54 PM
Not feeling testy at all (which is why I made the extra point out to indicate that in my first reply). I'm assuming you meant May, not March. My point was that during the games Morneau was out (which corresponded to when Butera first arrived), Mauer basically filled in for him. Up to the point he went out hurt (21 games), Morneau played almost exclusively DH with a few (four) games at 1B sprinkled in. During the 14 games he was out, Mauer started at DH 5 times and 1B 4. The original "starting first baseman" was Parmelee and he continued to be when Morneau was out.

yes, I meant May, and I was specific about what I was saying...you changed the scope. Remember what my original argument was as to why Butera was brought up? Mauer at 1st, Doumit at catcher, Butera up. I said that, but then also pointed out the amount of games Mauer played at first when Morny was out was five. Meaning, I was pretty much saying that although that my original thought process was Butera was brought up to be insurance for catcher so Mauer could play 1B, the fact Mauer only played 5 games at 1B while Morny was out hurts my original argument making it funny (peculiar, not haha)

CDog
02-25-2013, 02:46 PM
yes, I meant May, and I was specific about what I was saying...you changed the scope. Remember what my original argument was as to why Butera was brought up? Mauer at 1st, Doumit at catcher, Butera up. I said that, but then also pointed out the amount of games Mauer played at first when Morny was out was five. Meaning, I was pretty much saying that although that my original thought process was Butera was brought up to be insurance for catcher so Mauer could play 1B, the fact Mauer only played 5 games at 1B while Morny was out hurts my original argument making it funny (peculiar, not haha)

Now I'm just plain confused.

Your first post in this thread, in its entirety, said Butera came up when Morneau went out for a couple of weeks. There was no additional commentary as to why or anything about the Morneau-Mauer-Doumit-Butera chain. From there I wanted to get at what was different, especially when Morneau came back. Since Butera stayed, it didn't seem as simple as Morneau Out = Butera In.

In response to my attempt to look at what changed, you replied that Gardenhire wanted Butera all along and used Morneau going out as his excuse. I still don't see how that makes sense, and don't see where you made the arguments that you seem to wonder how I missed. Was it in a different thread? I don't see it here. I apologize if I'm missing it somehow.

All of that is outside the topic of the thread, though, and I'll re-state the essence of where I was going to hopefully get us out of the mire here: Butera was kept on the roster after Morneau came back because the DH was almost always Doumit or Mauer. Before Morneau went out, it wasn't necessary because Morneau was the DH (and, therefore, Doumit was not). So if the hope is that there is "more pop off the bench" in place of a third catcher, it seems unlikely to me unless A) someone other than Doumit is the primary DH, or B) the popper can also fill in at catcher.