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View Full Version : Bollinger: Florimon is the favorite to start at shortstop



John Bonnes
02-21-2013, 01:51 PM
I don't know if we already knew this, or just figured it was the case. But Rhett Bollinger of MNTwins.com is reporting that Pedro Florimon is the favorite to be the shortstop on Opening Day.


Gardenhire added he's been impressed by Pedro Florimon at shortstop, and he remains the favorite to win that job heading into Grapefruit League play.


"He's the incumbent and I like Florimon," Gardenhire said. "I love the way he catches the ball and the way he plays. He's stronger. We'll see how he does swinging the bat. I rely on my shortstop to control that infield. I like the way he goes about his business."



History tells us how he's going to swing the bat: like someone visually challenged.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130220&content_id=41819358&notebook_id=41819384

twinsnorth49
02-21-2013, 01:55 PM
"We'll see how he goes about swinging a bat"? We've already seen it Ron, it ain't pretty.

TheLeviathan
02-21-2013, 04:35 PM
One of these days I'd like a detailed description of what this "control the infield" thing is. It's what sunk Bartlett early and has been repeated many times. It's so vague I'm not sure what it is.

Seth Stohs
02-21-2013, 04:40 PM
Pretty sure we knew that already, didn't we?

TwinsArmChairGM_Jon
02-21-2013, 04:42 PM
One of these days I'd like a detailed description of what this "control the infield" thing is. It's what sunk Bartlett early and has been repeated many times. It's so vague I'm not sure what it is.

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with organizing the carpool to the Teresa Mauer ice cream sundae parties. In all fairness, Bartlett did suck at that.

Seth Stohs
02-21-2013, 04:43 PM
One of these days I'd like a detailed description of what this "control the infield" thing is. It's what sunk Bartlett early and has been repeated many times. It's so vague I'm not sure what it is.

That's a great question, Leviathan! And, I don't know if there is really an answer to that... However, when I went to Beloit the first time 3 years ago... I saw James Beresford control the infield. He was playing second base that particular day. He was clearly the leader in that infield. And again, it wasn't yelling. It wasn't being loud. It was just very clear. He went in to talk to the pitcher a couple of times. He was seeing something. I remember immediately after that, the pitcher got a double play, and walking off the field, the pitcher went over and thanked Beresford.

That's one example of something that can't really be explained very clearly, but when you see it, you just can tell.

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 04:56 PM
It's kind of like when people want to have scientific things explained to then in 'plain english'. What that usually means is they don't understand the english words that are being used in the original description they're confused by. The concept is baffling to lay people, because they lack the experience required to have a shared frame of reference. Of course, people who generally disagree with the person doing the confusing often will then use their confusion as evidence that the confusor doesn't know what they're doing.

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 05:03 PM
It's kind of like when people want to have scientific things explained to then in 'plain english'. What that usually means is they don't understand the english words that are being used in the original description they're confused by. The concept is baffling to lay people, because they lack the experience required to have a shared frame of reference. Of course, people who generally disagree with the person doing the confusing often will then use their confusion as evidence that the confusor doesn't know what they're doing.

Unless you've played the game at some certain level, you have no business on a discussion forum. We get it already.

Han Joelo
02-21-2013, 05:14 PM
I played one season of tee ball (I was a year younger than the other prospects in my league) but spent the rest of my childhood summers driving a tractor, sometimes listening to baseball or maybe catching a couple of innings during lunch on Saturdays. Does that qualify me to join a discussion forum?

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 05:17 PM
Unless you've played the game at some certain level, you have no business on a discussion forum. We get it already.
Obviously you don't 'get it'. That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying we regulars don't know what 'controlling the infield' means, but that won't stop some people from saying that its an indication Gardy is full of it.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 05:17 PM
I played one season of tee ball (I was a year younger than the other prospects in my league) but spent the rest of my childhood summers driving a tractor, sometimes listening to baseball or maybe catching a couple of innings during lunch on Saturdays. Does that qualify me to join a discussion forum?

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express at any point in your life? :-)

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 05:21 PM
Obviously you don't 'get it'. That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying we regulars don't know what 'controlling the infield' means, but that won't stop some people from saying that its an indication Gardy is full of it.

I've always took it to mean if there's a pop up in the IF, and the shortstop can get it, the shortstop gets it. Bartlett often let the 2B go get balls he clearly should have gotten. He also positions the IFs. He's helping position the OF by putting his hands behind his back and signaling (some teams used to do that...I did back in the day.). In other words, no doubt he's in charge. Watch Tulo or Jeter. No doubt who is in charge of those IF.

snepp
02-21-2013, 05:31 PM
Hardy wasn't athletic enough to be in charge.

Han Joelo
02-21-2013, 05:44 PM
I did. I woke up with an epiphany: RBI totals are meaningless. I also learned the secret statistical formula describing the definition of a "True" Ace, but I can't tell.

TheLeviathan
02-21-2013, 07:12 PM
Obviously you don't 'get it'. That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying we regulars don't know what 'controlling the infield' means, but that won't stop some people from saying that its an indication Gardy is full of it.

I understand what is generally meant by the term - calling out positioning, relaying calls, taking charge, etc - what I don't understand is the Gardy version of it. I don't think this is a layman's misunderstanding.

If you want evidence of that - Jason Bartlett was a pretty established ball player and didn't apparently have a clue what it was either.

Badsmerf
02-21-2013, 10:42 PM
Anyone on the Gardy bandwagon still had better take a minute and digest this.

righty8383
02-21-2013, 10:46 PM
Pretty sure we knew that already, didn't we?

Bollinger is the King of writing stuff that we already know.

Oldgoat_MN
02-21-2013, 11:08 PM
I played one season of tee ball (I was a year younger than the other prospects in my league) but spent the rest of my childhood summers driving a tractor, sometimes listening to baseball or maybe catching a couple of innings during lunch on Saturdays. Does that qualify me to join a discussion forum?
We don't necessarily all feel the same way.
As far as I'm concerned all are welcome. Now, I'm just a lowly former catcher from back in the deadball era, but I still post and people are pretty nice to me.

RodneyKline
02-21-2013, 11:48 PM
That was very funny. All these baseball boards are usually made up of 49.99% people who played less baseball then you, 49.99% posers who never played at any advanced level but say they have and maybe one guy that played above high school who would never bother posting, because he knows the rest of us are tools... so you are OK to post away!!!

Funny side story...I coached a lot of Little League and I always had Dads that told me that they played pro or college ball so I would say "Oh that's great Mr Jeter, I will definitely want you out on the field to help me". I would then roll a ball to them and immediately see that they never even played t-ball. Hahaha!!! They played a few years of beer ball and they think that they can carry off that lie. So funny...

It ranks right up there with when big stupid meatheads who may or may not have been in the Navy or the Army for a couple years, says "oh yeah, I was a Navy Seal (or Army Ranger)". I almost burst out laughing because I know that they don't want big physical guys in the elite forces and I know they make those guys commit to 10 years minimum because of the millions they spend training them, so I know immediately that they are lying. The only "muscle" that they are looking for in those guys is the one between their ears. I am not saying that those guys are not in good shape but that is not what they are looking for in potential recruits. They want the brilliant guys. I don't know why I went off the subject of baseball there. Sorry about that...Ever since I had to leave my pro baseball career to join Team six of the Navy Seals and I was tortured by the Viet Cong at the Hanoi Hilton, I go off subject easily like this sometimes...anyway

Semper Fi to all my fellow sixers! Uh rah! (That's what we say all the time on team six...wait, I am so embarrassed, that was not in the Navy Seals that we said Semper Fi...we said that when I was the starting shortstop at Miami when I played D1 baseball before I joined the Army Rangers...I mean team six when we shot Obama bin Laden. Semper Fi meant "hey check out those hot cheerleaders". I would have you hit me some ground balls and show you or kill you with one finger but you know all that torture and stuff...


I played one season of tee ball (I was a year younger than the other prospects in my league) but spent the rest of my childhood summers driving a tractor, sometimes listening to baseball or maybe catching a couple of innings during lunch on Saturdays. Does that qualify me to join a discussion forum?

Shane Wahl
02-22-2013, 12:41 AM
Jamey Carroll and Brian Dozier make the better tandem to be starters. And if I hear anymore whining about the $2 million Carroll option for 2014, I am going to lose my mind. Florimon is ok enough to play some. His bat is not going to be *that* bad and his defense is good enough. He needs focus to be able to make routine plays. If he develops that, then he can be the starter for the time being.

Nick Nelson
02-22-2013, 01:51 AM
I understand what is generally meant by the term - calling out positioning, relaying calls, taking charge, etc - what I don't understand is the Gardy version of it. I don't think this is a layman's misunderstanding.
Right. It's not hard to understand what he's getting at it -- the shortstop is the captain of the infield and certain responsibilities come along with that. What is hard to understand is why we should accept the Twins continually putting so much stock into an intangible quality with no discernible value. James Beresford might be great at controlling the infield but that doesn't overshadow his larger weaknesses. Ditto Pedro Florimon.

Han Joelo
02-22-2013, 08:27 AM
That was very funny. All these baseball boards are usually made up of 49.99% people who played less baseball then you, 49.99% posers who never played at any advanced level but say they have and maybe one guy that played above high school who would never bother posting, because he knows the rest of us are tools... so you are OK to post away!!!

Funny side story...I coached a lot of Little League and I always had Dads that told me that they played pro or college ball so I would say "Oh that's great Mr Jeter, I will definitely want you out on the field to help me". I would then roll a ball to them and immediately see that they never even played t-ball. Hahaha!!! They played a few years of beer ball and they think that they can carry off that lie. So funny...

It ranks right up there with when big stupid meatheads who may or may not have been in the Navy or the Army for a couple years, says "oh yeah, I was a Navy Seal (or Army Ranger)". I almost burst out laughing because I know that they don't want big physical guys in the elite forces and I know they make those guys commit to 10 years minimum because of the millions they spend training them, so I know immediately that they are lying. The only "muscle" that they are looking for in those guys is the one between their ears. I am not saying that those guys are not in good shape but that is not what they are looking for in potential recruits. They want the brilliant guys. I don't know why I went off the subject of baseball there. Sorry about that...Ever since I had to leave my pro baseball career to join Team six of the Navy Seals and I was tortured by the Viet Cong at the Hanoi Hilton, I go off subject easily like this sometimes...anyway

Semper Fi to all my fellow sixers! Uh rah! (That's what we say all the time on team six...wait, I am so embarrassed, that was not in the Navy Seals that we said Semper Fi...we said that when I was the starting shortstop at Miami when I played D1 baseball before I joined the Army Rangers...I mean team six when we shot Obama bin Laden. Semper Fi meant "hey check out those hot cheerleaders". I would have you hit me some ground balls and show you or kill you with one finger but you know all that torture and stuff...

I was an international baseball scout when the Agency recruited and trained me. We worked together on bringing down that Columbian drug lord. I was also in on the Wilson Ramos rescue...if only we could have rescued him from the Capps trade, it could've justified both my professions.

Seriously, this forum needs more humor like yours and less of the sixth-grade-turn Drew Butera's name- into-Peew Butt-aira type stuff.

snepp
02-22-2013, 08:31 AM
Four months ago I would have cared about Carroll's option vesting, but that was before it became apparent they have little intention of maintaining an acceptable payroll. Now it doesn't matter, they aren't going to spend that money anywhere else.

USAFChief
02-22-2013, 08:59 AM
"Florimon is the favorite to start at shortstop" Who's Favorite? Not mine.

mike wants wins
02-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Right. It's not hard to understand what he's getting at it -- the shortstop is the captain of the infield and certain responsibilities come along with that. What is hard to understand is why we should accept the Twins continually putting so much stock into an intangible quality with no discernible value. James Beresford might be great at controlling the infield but that doesn't overshadow his larger weaknesses. Ditto Pedro Florimon.

They put all kind of stok in intangibles and unmeasurables. It is why butera is on the roster, despite any numbers they believe he is great with pitchers. Despite the numbers and a track record, they think Correia is a gamer and innings eater and is "better than his numbers". It is why Cuddeyer was loved here, a great interview. Intangibles and immeasurables are super important to this team. Me, I prefer guys that product results.

mike wants wins
02-22-2013, 09:04 AM
Four months ago I would have cared about Carroll's option vesting, but that was before it became apparent they have little intention of maintaining an acceptable payroll. Now it doesn't matter, they aren't going to spend that money anywhere else.

This. At this point, who cares, because they don't.

Boom Boom
02-22-2013, 09:15 AM
They put all kind of stok in intangibles and unmeasurables. It is why butera is on the roster, despite any numbers they believe he is great with pitchers. Despite the numbers and a track record, they think Correia is a gamer and innings eater and is "better than his numbers". It is why Cuddeyer was loved here, a great interview. Intangibles and immeasurables are super important to this team. Me, I prefer guys that product results.

Intangibles get played up for players who don't put up great (or in Florimon's case, acceptable) statistics.

TR and Gardy are basically saying about Florimon, "Ignore the tangible evidence that he's no good and take our word for it that he'll be just fine."

grover738
02-22-2013, 09:28 AM
Oy. Just thought of those Butera at catcher days with Dozier, Florimon and Butera batting 7-8-9. There should be an asterisk on the opposing pitcher's ERA, not sure he deserves one full IP for getting through those three. Ok, that was harsh, but man. Those three at 7-8-9 is something that should only happen in August when everyone is hurt, not sometime in April when everyone is healthy.

Oldgoat_MN
02-22-2013, 09:28 AM
That was very funny. All these baseball boards are usually made up of 49.99% people who played less baseball then you, 49.99% posers who never played at any advanced level but say they have and maybe one guy that played above high school who would never bother posting, because he knows the rest of us are tools... so you are OK to post away!!!

Funny side story...I coached a lot of Little League and I always had Dads that told me that they played pro or college ball so I would say "Oh that's great Mr Jeter, I will definitely want you out on the field to help me". I would then roll a ball to them and immediately see that they never even played t-ball. Hahaha!!! They played a few years of beer ball and they think that they can carry off that lie. So funny...

It ranks right up there with when big stupid meatheads who may or may not have been in the Navy or the Army for a couple years, says "oh yeah, I was a Navy Seal (or Army Ranger)". I almost burst out laughing because I know that they don't want big physical guys in the elite forces and I know they make those guys commit to 10 years minimum because of the millions they spend training them, so I know immediately that they are lying. The only "muscle" that they are looking for in those guys is the one between their ears. I am not saying that those guys are not in good shape but that is not what they are looking for in potential recruits. They want the brilliant guys. I don't know why I went off the subject of baseball there. Sorry about that...Ever since I had to leave my pro baseball career to join Team six of the Navy Seals and I was tortured by the Viet Cong at the Hanoi Hilton, I go off subject easily like this sometimes...anyway

Semper Fi to all my fellow sixers! Uh rah! (That's what we say all the time on team six...wait, I am so embarrassed, that was not in the Navy Seals that we said Semper Fi...we said that when I was the starting shortstop at Miami when I played D1 baseball before I joined the Army Rangers...I mean team six when we shot Obama bin Laden. Semper Fi meant "hey check out those hot cheerleaders". I would have you hit me some ground balls and show you or kill you with one finger but you know all that torture and stuff...

That is so very cool RodneyKline! Great to have you on the site.

I was a playground supervisor once, so, you know, we're like brothers!

twinsnorth49
02-22-2013, 10:05 AM
Intangibles get played up for players who don't put up great (or in Florimon's case, acceptable) statistics.

TR and Gardy are basically saying about Florimon, "Ignore the tangible evidence that he's no good and take our word for it that he'll be just fine."

Exactly right, intangibles are a way for organizations to make excuses for poor personnel decisons, despite all the evidence to the contrary,"we know something about this player that actually makes them valuable, we just can't tell you exactly what that is, but trust us, it's there".

twinsnorth49
02-22-2013, 10:10 AM
Funny side story...I coached a lot of Little League and I always had Dads that told me that they played pro or college ball so I would say "Oh that's great Mr Jeter, I will definitely want you out on the field to help me". I would then roll a ball to them and immediately see that they never even played t-ball. Hahaha!!! They played a few years of beer ball and they think that they can carry off that lie. So funny....

They must have loved having a smart ass, condescending jerk coaching their children. I'm going to try this when coaching my son's team this year, should make me really popular.

ThePuck
02-22-2013, 10:17 AM
Funny side story...I coached a lot of Little League and I always had Dads that told me that they played pro or college ball so I would say "Oh that's great Mr Jeter, I will definitely want you out on the field to help me". I would then roll a ball to them and immediately see that they never even played t-ball. Hahaha!!! They played a few years of beer ball and they think that they can carry off that lie. So funny...

Did that make you feel better about yourself?

LoganJones
02-22-2013, 10:26 AM
What is hard to understand is why we should accept the Twins continually putting so much stock into an intangible quality with no discernible value.
Just because you can't discern it doesn't mean it isn't there.

twinsnorth49
02-22-2013, 10:37 AM
Just because you can't discern it doesn't mean it isn't there.

If you cant discern it, how do you know that, are you a mystic?

Boom Boom
02-22-2013, 10:45 AM
Exactly right, intangibles are a way for organizations to make excuses for poor personnel decisons, despite all the evidence to the contrary,"we know something about this player that actually makes them valuable, we just can't tell you exactly what that is, but trust us, it's there".

Conversely, the Twins don't talk about Joe Mauer's intangibles very much because he puts up eye-popping statistics.

twinsnorth49
02-22-2013, 10:56 AM
Conversely, the Twins don't talk about Joe Mauer's intangibles very much because he puts up eye-popping statistics.

And even more conversely, Mauer critics often cite his lack of "intangibles" as a way to denigrate him, despite all the hard "tangilbles" that actually show he is a great baseball player.

Nick Nelson
02-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Intangibles get played up for players who don't put up great (or in Florimon's case, acceptable) statistics.

TR and Gardy are basically saying about Florimon, "Ignore the tangible evidence that he's no good and take our word for it that he'll be just fine."
And while I'm willing to believe that there is more than meets the eye with some players, it's awfully difficult to lend any credibility when the Twins use this type of reasoning to make blatantly horrible decisions like choosing Castro over Bartlett, Nishioka over Hardy, or Casilla over anybody. At what point do they take a step back and say, "We need to start reevaluating how we assess the shortstop position"?

Boom Boom
02-22-2013, 11:47 AM
And while I'm willing to believe that there is more than meets the eye with some players, it's awfully difficult to lend any credibility when the Twins use this type of reasoning to make blatantly horrible decisions like choosing Castro over Bartlett, Nishioka over Hardy, or Casilla over anybody. At what point do they take a step back and say, "We need to start reevaluating how we assess the shortstop position"?

Probably when Gardenhire is no longer the manager.

FrodaddyG
02-22-2013, 12:13 PM
At what point do they take a step back and say, "We need to start reevaluating how we assess the shortstop position"?
I'd say not having a former no-hit middle infielder running the show who has a soft spot for, and "sees the value in" current no-hit middle infielders might be a start.

Nick Nelson
02-22-2013, 12:17 PM
I'd say not having a former no-hit middle infielder running the show who has a soft spot for, and "sees the value in" current no-hit middle infielders might be a start.

He's not the one constructing the rosters, so I'd say the problem goes beyond him.

FrodaddyG
02-22-2013, 12:19 PM
He's not the one constructing the rosters, so I'd say the problem goes beyond him.
No, but he's been the one constant throughout his reign, and I doubt he had no say in Castro over Bartlett or Hardy getting the fast track out of town.

Boom Boom
02-22-2013, 12:26 PM
No, but he's been the one constant throughout his reign, and I doubt he had no say in Castro over Bartlett or Hardy getting the fast track out of town.

Gardenhire favorites Punto, Tolbert, and Casilla couldn't play themselves out of a spot no matter how hard they tried.

ashburyjohn
02-22-2013, 12:45 PM
Obviously you don't 'get it'. That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying we regulars don't know what 'controlling the infield' means, but that won't stop some people from saying that its an indication Gardy is full of it.

OK, "if you have to ask, you'll never understand" works just as well as a synopsis. That you go on to talk about stopping people from saying certain things is also indicative.

TheLeviathan
02-22-2013, 04:06 PM
And while I'm willing to believe that there is more than meets the eye with some players, it's awfully difficult to lend any credibility when the Twins use this type of reasoning to make blatantly horrible decisions like choosing Castro over Bartlett, Nishioka over Hardy, or Casilla over anybody. At what point do they take a step back and say, "We need to start reevaluating how we assess the shortstop position"?

Exactly. The Castro over Bartlett one still stands out to me. I don't think anyone disagrees with Gardy in a general sense, I think the disagreement is in how this phrase is used to elevate lesser talents and denigrate others. In fact, I think Casilla was an example of it being used for and against him.

I like how others have phrased this and it's an angle I never even considered -these vague intangibles are really being used too heavily to construct our rosters. They are foolish replacements for actual talent and production.

Nick Nelson
02-22-2013, 05:55 PM
No, but he's been the one constant throughout his reign, and I doubt he had no say in Castro over Bartlett or Hardy getting the fast track out of town.
True, but there are plenty of people that have to sign off on these decisions and the GM is the one executing them. This is an organizational thing; the Twins seem to evaluate shortstops in a different (and - if the results bear it out - worse) way than other teams in the league. Florimon is a sign that they're staying on that same path, which is frustrating.

Thrylos
02-22-2013, 06:37 PM
I think that the Twins just do not have many options here.

If not Florimon, then who?

55 year old Carroll?
Dozier?
Escobar?
Danny S?
Beresford?
Good Rum?

Who?

Kwak
02-22-2013, 07:09 PM
Oy. Just thought of those Butera at catcher days with Dozier, Florimon and Butera batting 7-8-9. There should be an asterisk on the opposing pitcher's ERA, not sure he deserves one full IP for getting through those three. Ok, that was harsh, but man. Those three at 7-8-9 is something that should only happen in August when everyone is hurt, not sometime in April when everyone is healthy.
You forgot Valencia in April 2012--ughh that was brutal. The Twins had many horror stories in April 2012, sorry to dig him up, but I thought he batted 6th, so it was 6,7,8, and 9!

Kwak
02-22-2013, 07:15 PM
True, but there are plenty of people that have to sign off on these decisions and the GM is the one executing them. This is an organizational thing; the Twins seem to evaluate shortstops in a different (and - if the results bear it out - worse) way than other teams in the league. Florimon is a sign that they're staying on that same path, which is frustrating.

+1. Remember when Smith was walking out the door (leaving his head in a basket) and quipped "I wasn't the only one who signed-off on him, only the last signature." Perhaps there should have been several more heads in that very same basket.