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John Bonnes
02-19-2013, 06:29 PM
Judd Zulgad writes about how Ron Gardenhire has at least one believer in the organization. And it's an important one: his boss.


While Gardenhire will be under pressure to turn things around in 2013, he also knows that Ryan believes in him and, maybe even more importantly, appears to have ultimate say on baseball matters within the Twins' organization.

It will be interesting this season to see how Gardenhire ends up. With Terry Ryan at the helm, I don't think Gardy will be judged bases on wins and losses. He might get fired based on other things. But it isn't going to be just because of a 90-loss season. Ryan knows the talent level on this team. And he knows he put Gardy in a tough situation by building for the future instead of the present.

And that's the way it should be, IMHO.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Zulgad_Presence_of_Terry_Ryan_as_GM_is_good_news_f or_Ron_Gardenhire021813

FrodaddyG
02-19-2013, 06:48 PM
But it isn't going to be just because of a 90-loss season.
How about 3 of them?

Kwak
02-19-2013, 08:41 PM
Gardenhire is a Ryan disciple--or he would never have been manager in the first place--his job is safe.

Top Gun
02-19-2013, 08:58 PM
When the sheet hits the fan someone has to take the fall.

John Bonnes
02-19-2013, 10:20 PM
When the sheet hits the fan someone has to take the fall.

I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.

johnnydakota
02-19-2013, 10:37 PM
How about 3 of them?

totally agreeing 3 of them , yeah thats the ticket fire all 3 of them ST.Pete,Ryan and Gardy

johnnydakota
02-19-2013, 10:43 PM
I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.
What has he done John?
He traded 2 mlb starters for a sore armed starter, a double A struggler and a single A pitcher?
Or are you referring to his payroll slashing moves?While the moves were decent I believe other generals could have done as well or better.
If nothing else he should have gotten Washington to throw in Lannon , a player they were going to non tender any way....

bl
02-19-2013, 11:04 PM
It's an interesting situation. Figure that Gardy's primary goal is maximizing wins this season while Ryan needs to play a longer game.

So what happens if, say, Hicks looks awesome in spring training and Gardy wants to start him in CF April 1, but Ryan wants to hold him in AAA for service time reasons? I suppose this stuff happens all the time and they probably have a decent working relationship/arbitration process, so it's not like I'm expecting him to him to punch in Ryan's door. I'm just sure Gardy's going to be real pissed if he doesn't get all the tools he wants (see also: starting rotation) and yet ends up without a job, and I wouldn't blame him.

I don't think that managers make much of a difference, but I do feel a twinge of pity for a guy who saw us through so many pretty awesome years.

nicksaviking
02-19-2013, 11:09 PM
I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.

You think Ryan would take the bullet for Gardy? I'm not so sure. I'm sure Ryan would rationalize it thusly: If I take the hit and spare Gardy, they'll replace me and my replacement will then want to get a new manager anyway. No reason for us both to go down with the ship.

Oldgoat_MN
02-19-2013, 11:09 PM
I appreciate loyalty, but I don't know if it is really the same in the sports business.
Sometimes even good managers/head coaches have to go to make a statement to the team.
You can't fire ALL the players.

nicksaviking
02-19-2013, 11:14 PM
I appreciate loyalty, but I don't know if it is really the same in the sports business.
Sometimes even good managers/head coaches have to go to make a statement to the team.
You can't fire ALL the players.

No but you can fire the guys who made the decisions to acquire those inadaquate players instead.

Kwak
02-19-2013, 11:28 PM
This "arrangement" is safe for three more seasons at a minimum. The Payroll is falling, the minor leagues are building, and time was granted to turn the ship around. These two will get three more years minimum for the "Prospects" to reach the Twins and for the rotation to settle-in-place. If the ownership wanted immediate action--a whole new Front Office would have been appointed and lots of money spent on players. Since that didn't happen it is safe to assume the "slow and easy course" (with the required slash/burn or payroll) will be used--at least three years and maybe four.

Mark_RM
02-20-2013, 12:11 AM
I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.
I agree that as long as TR stays, Gardenhire probably will too. If TR thinks that its OK to have a manager that values bunting ability in a #2 hitter, another loosing season isn't going to change his mind.

glunn
02-20-2013, 02:06 AM
I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.

John Bonnes
02-20-2013, 07:41 AM
I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.

It could play out that way. I feel like Gardy is way too competitive and wants to see this thing through. You'll recall that TK, when he stepped down, waited until he got through the dark times. 2001 was when things came together, though they finished poorly.

Brock Beauchamp
02-20-2013, 07:50 AM
I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.

I've suspected it could play out this way. After all those wins, I doubt Gardy is crazy about the idea of losing another 90 games in 2013 but unless something goes horribly wrong this season, I don't think he'll be fired.

On the other hand, I think anything over 75 wins almost guarantees he stays on and gets an extension. If there is hope for 2014 and beyond, I can see Gardenhire wading through one or two more losing seasons with the payoff of seeing another contender emerge mid-decade.

And really, I'm okay with that. Gardenhire drives me nuts at times but every baseball manager not named Joe Maddon drives me nuts at times. It's the nature of the job and in the end, I think Gardenhire's reported ability to run a tight clubhouse is just as important as his (IMO) failures in game management.

Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).

nicksaviking
02-20-2013, 10:34 AM
How is this going to play out though if this is another disaster season? Gardenhire's contract is up after 2013, are they really going to give him a two or three year deal after three consecutive 90 loss seasons? I don't know that they'd want to make that kind of statement to the fans. The other option is continually giving him one year deals, but that is a rarity in the MLB, neither the manager or the team would want a lame duck status rolling over annually for their manager.

LoganJones
02-20-2013, 10:48 AM
.. but every baseball manager not named Joe Maddon drives me nuts at times. It's the nature of the job and in the end, I think Gardenhire's reported ability to run a tight clubhouse is just as important as his (IMO) failures in game management.
Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).

I bet if you really followed the Rays with the same passion you followed the Twins, Maddon would drive you just as nuts. I agree he's the best of the bunch, by the way. But hop over to a Rays board and you find just as many 'Maddon is the reason we don't win it all' posts.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 10:53 AM
Gardenhire's contract is up after 2013, are they really going to give him a two or three year deal after three consecutive 90 loss seasons? I don't know that they'd want to make that kind of statement to the fans.

Well, no Twins team ever lost as many games in back to back seasons as the Twins have done the last two seasons...and no MLB manager has ever led his team to more consecutive playoff losses either...yet he's still with the team. I'm not sure they worry too much about what they're saying to the fans by keeping him.

Brock Beauchamp
02-20-2013, 11:01 AM
I bet if you really followed the Rays with the same passion you followed the Twins, Maddon would drive you just as nuts. I agree he's the best of the bunch, by the way. But hop over to a Rays board and you find just as many 'Maddon is the reason we don't win it all' posts.

I doubt it. I get annoyed when the manager doesn't do EXACTLY as I expect but if I can see the reasoning behind his actions 90% of the time or better, I generally let it slide. In the case of Maddon, I'm even willing to go farther and give him the benefit of the doubt because he does so many things right that I'd second-guess if I was missing the reasoning behind a move.

With Gardy, not so much. The guy is predictable and some of his in-game habits are... not bright and rather indefensible. On the other hand, the guy seems to be a great clubhouse manager and in baseball, I think that counts for nearly as much as in-game management skills (maybe more on some teams). All in all, I think Ron is a pretty good manager because of baseball's unique position of being a 162 game season of individual performances. In baseball, a lot of the time the best thing the manager can do is keep everyone pointed in the correct direction and just get the hell out of their way.

Willihammer
02-20-2013, 11:02 AM
Shifts baby. Shifts.

Kwak
02-20-2013, 11:53 AM
Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault. If 2013 is yet another 90+ loss season some reason must be used to hang this around Gardenhire's neck. Can't use starting pitching (again)--that one would be on the Front Office. Injuries? Could happen, but can Gardenhire be blamed for that? No.

Consider when Boston axed Francona: he was blamed for losing control of the team and the end-result was a September collapse that left Boston out of the playoffs. I think that might have been used on TK but to use it this year? Well the Twins would first have to seriously contend, make a significant mid-year addition, and then collapse at the end for that. Buy a Powerball ticket instead, the probabilities are about the same but the payoff is much higher. If Gardenhire were to be sacked, a medical reason would likely be cited. First, it's happened before, second, well to be kind Gardy isn't a shining example of fitness, and third it can be surmised that he has "had enough" of MLB managing anyway and doesn't need the money. I don't believe the Twins would axe Gardenhire and blame him for the losing seasons, they would use a different reason.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 12:07 PM
Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault.

But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?

twinsnorth49
02-20-2013, 01:12 PM
There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 01:34 PM
There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.

Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.

Kwak
02-20-2013, 01:49 PM
But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?

They're not Gardenhire. They were bit players and were the equivalent of LOOGYs and 3rd string-catchers in the scheme of things--not responsible for results and unknown to all but a few.

johnnydakota
02-20-2013, 01:59 PM
I agree that as long as TR stays, Gardenhire probably will too. If TR thinks that its OK to have a manager that values bunting ability in a #2 hitter, another loosing season isn't going to change his mind.

wish we had bunting ability in our #2 hitter last year and hope this year he will be an improvement in that department...
last years team we a joke when i came to laying down a bunt

twinsnorth49
02-20-2013, 02:06 PM
Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.

Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.

johnnydakota
02-20-2013, 02:10 PM
Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.

Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)

twinsnorth49
02-20-2013, 02:17 PM
Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)

I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation.There's a difference between throwing guys under the bus and just being honest, developing a good relationship doesn't mean you have to stick your head in the sand and treat everyone with kid gloves.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 02:22 PM
I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation.There's a difference between throwing guys under the bus and just being honest, developing a good relationship doesn't mean you have to stick your head in the sand and treat everyone with kid gloves.

I remember one postgame interview. Valencia had a very good offensive game...even had a homer. No kudos for that...not a peep...all Gardy wanted to do was talk about how he misplayed a bunt...he kept talking about it. Thing is, if the bunt had been laid down properly, Danny would have made the play...

twinsnorth49
02-20-2013, 02:28 PM
I remember one postgame interview. Valencia had a very good offensive game...even had a homer. No kudos for that...not a peep...all Gardy wanted to do was talk about how he misplayed a bunt...he kept talking about it. Thing is, if the bunt had been laid down properly, Danny would have made the play...

Valencia had likely patted himself on the back enough, Gardy didn't feel like he needed to.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Valencia had likely patted himself on the back enough, Gardy didn't feel like he needed to.

Cute :-)

ashburyjohn
02-20-2013, 02:41 PM
If nothing else he should have gotten Washington to throw in Lannon , a player they were going to non tender any way....

Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods, a view that Washington later seconded.

ThePuck
02-20-2013, 02:44 PM
Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods

Didn't stop him from signing Corriea to a two year deal...

Maybe Ryan didn't want him cause he didn't have any real DL history....

LoganJones
02-20-2013, 02:45 PM
Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods, a view that Washington later seconded.
I might buy that, if not for the fact that he signed Pelfrey and Correia. I'm guessing that he felt Meyer was such an overpay for Span that he got out of there quick.

CDog
02-20-2013, 03:00 PM
I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation....

Amen and then some.

USAFChief
02-20-2013, 03:15 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think there's a real possibility this is Gardy's last season as Twins manager. If they lose 90 again--and they certainly could--my guess is he's gone. They might not call it a firing, but there'll be a new manager in the dugout in 2014. Gardy's had a good run, but a new manager to go along with the youth movement will be too appealing to pass up.

CDog
02-20-2013, 03:32 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think there's a real possibility this is Gardy's last season as Twins manager. If they lose 90 again--and they certainly could--my guess is he's gone. They might not call it a firing, but there'll be a new manager in the dugout in 2014. Gardy's had a good run, but a new manager to go along with the youth movement will be too appealing to pass up.

I don't know who has the majority, but I agree that 90 losses lead to this being Gardy's last season. I've also been back and forth about a dozen times on whether I feel like it's right. I know I'll think it sucks if it comes to pass that way, for a variety of reasons.

gunnarthor
02-20-2013, 03:43 PM
Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).

The funny thing is that, by pyth w/l, Maddon's Rays have generally underachieved. He's only had one season where he won more games than his pyth W/L record would have guessed.

drjim
02-20-2013, 03:45 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think there's a real possibility this is Gardy's last season as Twins manager. If they lose 90 again--and they certainly could--my guess is he's gone. They might not call it a firing, but there'll be a new manager in the dugout in 2014. Gardy's had a good run, but a new manager to go along with the youth movement will be too appealing to pass up.

I agree with this take completely. I actually think barring a .500 record he's gone.

Molitor is the logical successor. He should have been added to the staff this offseason but they probably wanted to avoid in-season speculation and to keep Molitor free of the taint if another mediocre season.

They brought new coaches in to begin the transition and will finish it next offseason.

ashburyjohn
02-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Didn't stop him from signing Corriea to a two year deal

/rimshot :)

LaBombo
02-20-2013, 09:49 PM
The funny thing is that, by pyth w/l, Maddon's Rays have generally underachieved. He's only had one season where he won more games than his pyth W/L record would have guessed.

Yes, but he's averaged 85 wins a year in the toughest division in baseball. He's managed one of the two cheapest rosters in four of his seven seasons, and bottom ten in the other three. AL manager of the year twice to Gardy's once despite four fewer years as manager, and a playoff record that, while below .500, dwarfs Gardy's.

If you were just pointing out an anomaly with the pythag disparity, good find. It's certainly interesting, especially since Tampa has usually had an excellent bullpen during his tenure, and I don't have a theory why they've undershot their expected wins under Maddon.

On the other hand, if you were citing it as evidence that he's overrated, agree to disagree. He'll probably always be a polarizing figure as a proponent of sabermetrics in a job where his peers have mostly either downplayed their significance or, in cases like Dusty "walks clog the base" Baker, have just plain gone flat earth on them.

snepp
02-20-2013, 10:54 PM
Valencia had likely patted himself on the back enough, Gardy didn't feel like he needed to.

I got a very respectable chuckle out of this.

one_eyed_jack
02-20-2013, 11:37 PM
I think it's more likely than not this is Gardy's last season with the Twins. A winning record probably saves his job, but that's probably not going to happen, I'd bet on a new manager in 2014.

There seems to be a sense that Molitor will and should be the guy. I've never quite understood that. Where is it written that being a popular local boy who had a great playing career means you have a God-given right to a job on the coaching staff with the hometown major league team upon request?

I don't have any particular objection to Molitor, maybe he'd make a great manager, but I'm not seeing the kind of track record of success in that field to convince me that we should assume he will be. Is he such a clearly better candidate than anyone else out there that we should give him the job just because he wants it?

Hiring Molitor would kinda feel like it were being done in the interest of making the fan base happy (or at least less angry) as opposed to giving the team the best chance to win.

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 09:14 AM
Yes, but he's averaged 85 wins a year in the toughest division in baseball. He's managed one of the two cheapest rosters in four of his seven seasons, and bottom ten in the other three. AL manager of the year twice to Gardy's once despite four fewer years as manager, and a playoff record that, while below .500, dwarfs Gardy's.

If you were just pointing out an anomaly with the pythag disparity, good find. It's certainly interesting, especially since Tampa has usually had an excellent bullpen during his tenure, and I don't have a theory why they've undershot their expected wins under Maddon.

On the other hand, if you were citing it as evidence that he's overrated, agree to disagree. He'll probably always be a polarizing figure as a proponent of sabermetrics in a job where his peers have mostly either downplayed their significance or, in cases like Dusty "walks clog the base" Baker, have just plain gone flat earth on them.

The theory backed up by the evidence could be that Maddon gets his teams to overproduce with his wizardry. His winning formula does backfire once in a while (as is prone to happen in all things) and cost them one or two winnable games?

drjim
02-21-2013, 09:37 AM
The theory backed up by the evidence could be that Maddon gets his teams to overproduce with his wizardry. His winning formula does backfire once in a while (as is prone to happen in all things) and cost them one or two winnable games?

Or he has had a nice run of elite starting pitching. That makes most managers look competent.

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 10:01 AM
Yes, but he's averaged 85 wins a year in the toughest division in baseball. He's managed one of the two cheapest rosters in four of his seven seasons, and bottom ten in the other three. AL manager of the year twice to Gardy's once despite four fewer years as manager, and a playoff record that, while below .500, dwarfs Gardy's.

If you were just pointing out an anomaly with the pythag disparity, good find. It's certainly interesting, especially since Tampa has usually had an excellent bullpen during his tenure, and I don't have a theory why they've undershot their expected wins under Maddon.

On the other hand, if you were citing it as evidence that he's overrated, agree to disagree. He'll probably always be a polarizing figure as a proponent of sabermetrics in a job where his peers have mostly either downplayed their significance or, in cases like Dusty "walks clog the base" Baker, have just plain gone flat earth on them.

Pyth. +/- would seem to speak to in-game managing skill. There is also the question of how the runs scored / runs scored + runs allowed equation comes to be.

Baseball prospectus has a statistic called Defensive EFficiency (H-HR)/(AB-SO-HR+SH+SF). The Rays are consistently among the top 1 or 2 teams in Defensive Efficiency due to their shifts - employed by the Maddon braintrust. They score even better when you factor in park effects.

edit: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?search=DEF_EFF

LoganJones
02-21-2013, 10:31 AM
Or he has had a nice run of elite starting pitching. That makes most managers look competent.
Pshh. That makes too much sense.

johnnydakota
02-21-2013, 10:48 AM
Maybe it never occurred to Ryan to ask for a pitcher he didn't think has the goods, a view that Washington later seconded.

And kevin Correia is that much better? If nothing else it saves signing a minor leaque filler, or maybe a fresh start and Lannon has a decent season for us , or is trade bait for colorado or san diego

beckmt
02-21-2013, 10:59 AM
Do not know if Molitor is the sucessor, they wanted him out of the way in case things went south. Our Rochester manager might have just as much of a chance. Molitor may have failed at some point in time and also does not have a lot of manager experience, with young players, that may be the factor.

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 11:43 AM
And kevin Correia is that much better? If nothing else it saves signing a minor leaque filler, or maybe a fresh start and Lannon has a decent season for us , or is trade bait for colorado or san diego

I'm no Correia apologist, but he doesn't have much to do with this trade. Lannan spent the year in AAA and did not distinguish himself at all, while Correia contributed at the major league level. If we're asking why Ryan didn't get something else in the Span trade, it may be because both the Twins and the Nationals view Meyer as a potential front-line starter and Span even-up was the correct deal, and Ryan wasn't interested in trying to add mere filler if he'd have to give anything whatsoever to the package.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 11:46 AM
I'm no Correia apologist, but he doesn't have much to do with this trade. Lannan spent the year in AAA and did not distinguish himself at all, while Correia contributed at the major league level. If we're asking why Ryan didn't get something else in the Span trade, it may be because both the Twins and the Nationals view Meyer as a potential front-line starter and Span even-up was the correct deal, and Ryan wasn't interested in trying to add mere filler if he'd have to give anything whatsoever to the package.

Nationals were/are pitching heavy....that's why he was the odd man out. Lannan is absolutely worth having and he stays health too. I imagine he'll do pretty well in Philly. Won't ever be a star, but he's a decent pitcher.

FrodaddyG
02-21-2013, 11:52 AM
Nationals were/are pitching heavy....that's why he was the odd man out. Lannan is absolutely worth having and he stays health too. I imagine he'll do pretty well in Philly. Won't ever be a star, but he's a decent pitcher.
Thankfully, the Twins are also loaded with pitching depth, and thus don't need guys like Lannan.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 12:27 PM
Thankfully, the Twins are also loaded with pitching depth, and thus don't need guys like Lannan.

yeah, thankfully :-)

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 12:33 PM
Thankfully, the Twins are also loaded with pitching depth, and thus don't need guys like Lannan.

We keep talking about signing players who can later be flipped. Then here we are with Lannan, characterized as decent but simply an odd-man-out, and the Nationals weren't able to do anything with him except DFA him. This doesn't add up.

ThePuck
02-21-2013, 12:37 PM
We keep talking about signing players who can later be flipped. Then here we are with Lannan, characterized as decent but simply an odd-man-out, and the Nationals weren't able to do anything with him except DFA him. This doesn't add up.

and then he was signed by Philly. I'm not a huge Lannan fan per se, but to say he wasn't worth getting, or not better than Correia cause he got sent down by the Nationals (as opposed to Correia who just got sent to the pen by the Pirates), doesn't make much sense. He's better than Correia and younger than Correia

Riverbrian
02-21-2013, 01:00 PM
the Nationals weren't able to do anything with him except DFA him. This doesn't add up.

Thats a great point... Doesn't this speak volumes over his value. The Nationals could not complete a trade with anyone for Lannen. They had to DFA him and get nothing in return... I have no idea but it does seem to say something.

FrodaddyG
02-21-2013, 01:07 PM
Thats a great point... Doesn't this speak volumes over his value. The Nationals could not complete a trade with anyone for Lannen. They had to DFA him and get nothing in return... I have no idea but it does seem to say something.
It probably says "other teams knew he'd be available due to roster space, and weren't going to give up something when they could try and get him for free".

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 01:17 PM
Thats a great point... Doesn't this speak volumes over his value. The Nationals could not complete a trade with anyone for Lannen. They had to DFA him and get nothing in return... I have no idea but it does seem to say something.

I think there may have been a contract issue involved. Without the DFA, Lannan was likely due a raise over his $5M 2012 salary, by either the Nats or whoever acquired him. Once he was DFAed, he could sign with anyone for any (lower) amount.

In any case, all this moaning over a pitcher whose K/9 is on a (low) par with other pitchers who can't miss bats that we love to complain about, and who did not do well in AAA, baffles me.

ashburyjohn
02-21-2013, 01:19 PM
It probably says "other teams knew he'd be available due to roster space, and weren't going to give up something when they could try and get him for free".

And then it's Lannan's choice with whom to go, so if there's bidding for his services you take a chance on losing out. Question then is whether it's worth paying his arbitration-based salary in 2013, to assure having his services.

snepp
02-21-2013, 01:26 PM
In any case, all this moaning over a pitcher whose K/9 is on a (low) par with other pitchers who can't miss bats that we love to complain about, and who did not do well in AAA, baffles me.

The problem is that we guaranteed our version of Lannan, for no good reason, 2-years and $10 million.

Riverbrian
02-21-2013, 01:34 PM
I understand his pending arbitration situation and the role it played... And the bidding war afterwards stopped at 2.5 million.

Needing pitching will inflate value of pitching. Most teams need pitching and his value stopped at 2.5 plus bonus. It speaks volumes to me as for his value.

30 teams 2.5 million. The GM's collectively don't seem to value Lannan as high as some of us do.

Big City
02-21-2013, 01:51 PM
One thing to consider in new management is Gardy's previous success at ushering in new prospects. He's got a pretty spectacular track record and over the next couple of seasons the Twins will be promoting more prospects than ever before. Do you really trust that Molitor or any other new manager for the Twins would do better than Gardenhire at this and shouldn't this be considered more than W's and L's for a rebuilding franchise?

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 02:08 PM
I don't trust Molitor to be better at anything compared to Gardy. Why should he be, because he's from St Paul?

Identify an upgrade, then hire him. Don't fire Gardy just to fire him.

gunnarthor
02-21-2013, 02:34 PM
One thing to consider in new management is Gardy's previous success at ushering in new prospects. He's got a pretty spectacular track record and over the next couple of seasons the Twins will be promoting more prospects than ever before. Do you really trust that Molitor or any other new manager for the Twins would do better than Gardenhire at this and shouldn't this be considered more than W's and L's for a rebuilding franchise?

I agree with you but the you are going to get flamed very soon.