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John Bonnes
02-18-2013, 10:35 AM
Phil Miller finds out from Dave St. Peter that the first day of single game ticket sales wasn't great, but St. Peter doesn't see too precipitous of a drop:


Still, the Twins sold 50,000 tickets on Saturday, St. Peter said, and have moved more than 1.8 million for the season. They remain on pace, St. Peter said, for the equivalent of 19,000 season tickets sold.

"We remain confident we'll continue to be one of the best-drawing teams in baseball," St. Peter said.


That confidence would seem to be misplaced. Last year, the Twins drew 2.77 million - and ranked 12th overall. Last year, the dividing line between the top 15 and bottom 15 was about 2.35M. Would the Twins sink that low?

Consider that season ticket sales have gone down from 25,000 to 19,000, which is a 24% drop. A similar drop in overall sales would put the twins at 2.1 million this year.

Early indications show decreased demand for Twins tickets | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/191619141.html)

mcrow
02-18-2013, 10:38 AM
Would serve them right by stuffing money in their pockets and putting out a poor quality product. As loyal as Twins fans are eventually they will stop paying to see this team.

Oldgoat_MN
02-18-2013, 11:27 AM
One thing I do not understand about the business side of baseball is how they can put bad product on the field several years in a row.
The Orioles had a great season in 2012, but had a hell of a time getting people to come out to the ballpark. Although attendance jumped in the second half, the results were well below average for the year. They had not been competitive for years and lost fans.
Once fans stop coming to the park it is difficult to get them to start coming out again.
Putting a non-competitive team on the field 3 years in a row can be very, very costly.

Willihammer
02-18-2013, 11:28 AM
This 81% figure came up again on your podcast this week John. Maybe St Peter arrived at that figure because some people changed their plans from full season to partial-season, and thus aren't counted in your 19,000 figure of full-season ticket sales above?

FrodaddyG
02-18-2013, 11:30 AM
This 81% figure came up again on your podcast this week John. Maybe St Peter arrived at that figure because some people changed their plans from full season to partial-season, and thus aren't counted in your 19,000 figure of full-season ticket sales above?
I'd imagine the "equivalent of" 19,000 full season tickets would incorporate the partial season ticket packages used as some percentage of a "full season" package.

Willihammer
02-18-2013, 11:45 AM
That would make sense. Must be that 81% of season "ticketholders" renewed, but actual sales were only 76% compared to last year.

Brock Beauchamp
02-18-2013, 12:34 PM
One thing I do not understand about the business side of baseball is how they can put bad product on the field several years in a row.
The Orioles had a great season in 2012, but had a hell of a time getting people to come out to the ballpark. Although attendance jumped in the second half, the results were well below average for the year. They had not been competitive for years and lost fans.
Once fans stop coming to the park it is difficult to get them to start coming out again.
Putting a non-competitive team on the field 3 years in a row can be very, very costly.

I've been saying this for awhile. It took ten years to build up the goodwill this team has with fans and now they're pissing it away.

But there's no changing it now. They made their bed.

mike wants wins
02-18-2013, 12:42 PM
If I was governor, I'd push for a law requiring the Twins to pay the state and county for every dollar below the last year on the dome, adjusted for baseball inflation. They wanted money, if they won't spend it, pay back the taxpayers.......

I hope no one goes this year, if they are bad again. It is the only power we have to get changes made.

John Bonnes
02-18-2013, 01:55 PM
This 81% figure came up again on your podcast this week John. Maybe St Peter arrived at that figure because some people changed their plans from full season to partial-season, and thus aren't counted in your 19,000 figure of full-season ticket sales above?

Yeah, I thought of that as we were wrapping up that discussion, bue decided to move on. I suspect the difference is people downgrading their ticket packages.

I suspect that amount is more than the 5% difference between 19% annd 24%. At the media luncheon before twins fest, St. Peter said the season ticket sales were about 18,000, and that's about when he said 81% renewal, too. That would be 28%. And that also doesn't take into account any new season ticket holders.

drjim
02-18-2013, 04:07 PM
If only they signed Saunders, Marcum and another middle infielder - ticket sales would be through the roof!

drjim
02-18-2013, 04:11 PM
If I was governor, I'd push for a law requiring the Twins to pay the state and county for every dollar below the last year on the dome, adjusted for baseball inflation. They wanted money, if they won't spend it, pay back the taxpayers.......

I hope no one goes this year, if they are bad again. It is the only power we have to get changes made.

Two problems. The state didn't contribute any money and payroll is higher than the last year in the Dome.

snepp
02-18-2013, 04:11 PM
If only they signed Saunders, Marcum and another middle infielder - ticket sales would be through the roof!

Yup, putting a better team on the field would be disastrous for attendance, both now, and in the future. Those marginal upgrades couldn't possibly help one bit.

crarko
02-18-2013, 04:20 PM
If I was governor, I'd push for a law requiring the Twins to pay the state and county for every dollar below the last year on the dome, adjusted for baseball inflation. They wanted money, if they won't spend it, pay back the taxpayers.......

I hope no one goes this year, if they are bad again. It is the only power we have to get changes made.

Well, I plan to attend a few games this year. Sorry if that offends anyone's tender and delicate sensibilities.

Okay, I'm really not sorry.

mike wants wins
02-18-2013, 04:21 PM
Adjusted for baseball inflation...ok, give the money to the county.

mike wants wins
02-18-2013, 04:21 PM
Why would that offend me?

twinsnorth49
02-18-2013, 04:39 PM
If only they signed Saunders, Marcum and another middle infielder - ticket sales would be through the roof!

You're right, it was a good decision not to do anything the fans might want to buy tickets to see. I guess if the Twins are content to just wait for the future, I'll wait until then as well.

Brock Beauchamp
02-18-2013, 05:35 PM
If only they signed Saunders, Marcum and another middle infielder - ticket sales would be through the roof!

How long you gonna keep banging that drum?

drjim
02-18-2013, 05:40 PM
How long you gonna keep banging that drum?

Probably as long as people think any of those moves would make much of a difference in attendance this year.

I agree with you that they made their bed, but only in the sense that they have sucked the past two years and the organization is in pretty bad shape as far as young talent in the majors is concerned. That is what keeps people away, not signing Correia instead of Saunders or Marcum.

Rosterman
02-18-2013, 05:46 PM
Let's see if the Tins p.r. machine can spark some interest and that someone like Hicks makes us want to see the Twins try and win in 2013. I don't think the return of Bruno and Steinbach should be a Twins 2013 selling point.

silverslugger
02-18-2013, 05:50 PM
I was able to attend my first game at Target Field last July. My wife bought tickets in early April, back when some still thought they had a chance for a bounce back year, at face value. I'd like to go to a game again this year. We won't be dumb enough to pay face value as I'm relatively certain their will be an abundance of tickets available on the secondary market by July.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 05:54 PM
I would imagine by August you'll be able to pay between 10-25% of face value. And, as a former season ticket holder, I can tell you prices like that will drive season ticket holders away which will hurt the team's available budget.

A few of those "marginal" upgrades were not only 2013 investments, they were investments in the 2015-217 fanbase as well.

FrodaddyG
02-18-2013, 05:58 PM
Probably as long as people think any of those moves would make much of a difference in attendance this year.

I agree with you that they made their bed, but only in the sense that they have sucked the past two years and the organization is in pretty bad shape as far as young talent in the majors is concerned. That is what keeps people away, not signing Correia instead of Saunders or Marcum.
Yep, why even try to get better in any increment and give people the hope that if they are on the fence about going to a game that the team they could go see will be acceptably decent? Hell, why sign Correia or anybody at all? 25 minimum salaries or bust! It doesn't matter!

Willihammer
02-18-2013, 05:58 PM
Am I the only one that thinks these figures seem high?

twinsnorth49
02-18-2013, 06:15 PM
Probably as long as people think any of those moves would make much of a difference in attendance this year.

I agree with you that they made their bed, but only in the sense that they have sucked the past two years and the organization is in pretty bad shape as far as young talent in the majors is concerned. That is what keeps people away, not signing Correia instead of Saunders or Marcum.

No, sucking the past two years, not much young, MLB ready talent, razor thin SP and doing absolutely NOTHING to address it, despite ample funds and opportunity, from a paying customers perspective, is what keeps people away.

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:19 PM
Yep, why even try to get better in any increment and give people the hope that if they are on the fence about going to a game that the team they could go see will be acceptably decent? Hell, why sign Correia or anybody at all? 25 minimum salaries or bust! It doesn't matter!

They did bring in three new starters and a couple of bullpen arms. I think they are trying to get better while also balancing against avoiding bad contracts and not blocking young players.

I understand people don't like the Correia signing - I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
I understand people don't lime the Correia signing -but I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd.

Ticket sales are linked to fan enthusiasm. This offseason gave the fanbase ZERO reason to be enthusiastic about next year. So you can cherry pick any names you want to say "that guy wouldn't have done it" but it's intentionally missing the entire point.

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:27 PM
No, sucking the past two years, not much young, MLB ready talent, razor thin SP and doing absolutely NOTHING to address it, despite ample funds and opportunity, from a paying customers perspective, is what keeps people away.

If you think adding three new starters to the opening day rotation is nothing I don't know what to say. I agree that the upgrade could have been marginally better with McCarthy or Marcum but to virtually all fans that difference really wouldn't register and certainly wouldn't impact decisions to buy tickets.

twinsnorth49
02-18-2013, 06:31 PM
They did bring in three new starters and a couple of bullpen arms. I think they are trying to get better while also balancing against avoiding bad contracts and not blocking young players.

I understand people don't like the Correia signing - I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd.

Ok, I'll agree the performance on the field the last 2 years plays a role in the decrease, but thinking the Twins doing pretty much nil to address that in the interim, despite said pathetic performance, is beyond absurd.

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:32 PM
Ticket sales are linked to fan enthusiasm. This offseason gave the fanbase ZERO reason to be enthusiastic about next year. So you can cherry pick any names you want to say "that guy wouldn't have done it" but it's intentionally missing the entire point.

I disagree. I think the bigger point is there was very little Terry Ryan and the front office could have done this offseason to change fan enthusiasm and the overall ticket sales trend.

The names I "cherry picked" were the very guys we have been talking about all offseason.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 06:33 PM
Ok, I'll agree the performance on the field the last 2 years plays a role in the decrease, but thinking the Twins doing pretty much nil to address that in the interim, despite said pathetic performance, is beyond absurd.

Marginally absurd. Because apparently "significant" = "marginal"

twinsnorth49
02-18-2013, 06:34 PM
If you think adding three new starters to the opening day rotation is nothing I don't know what to say. I agree that the upgrade could have been marginally better with McCarthy or Marcum but to virtually all fans that difference really wouldn't register and certainly wouldn't impact decisions to buy tickets.

I'm sorry but that viewpoint is laughable considering the overwhelming difference of opinion on this site alone.

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:34 PM
Ok, I'll agree the performance on the field the last 2 years plays a role in the decrease, but thinking the Twins doing pretty much nil to address that in the interim, despite said pathetic performance, is beyond absurd.

You say pretty much nil I say three starters and a couple other intriguing arms on minor league deals.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 06:36 PM
I disagree. I think the bigger point is there was very little Terry Ryan and the front office could have done this offseason to change fan enthusiasm and the overall ticket sales trend. The names I "cherry picked" were the very guys we have been talking about all offseason.

You're right, we should wait for Mike Trout. Then we'll get the fans going again. Your positions on these issues are maddening. I'm not sure how to approach something so absurd as "Nothing they could've done to add talent to this team would make fans excited"

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:37 PM
I'm sorry but that viewpoint is laughable considering the overwhelming difference of opinion on this site alone.

Fair enough but as you can probably tell I'm a little skeptical of the conventional wisdom on this site of how big an upgrade these guys would represent.

crarko
02-18-2013, 06:44 PM
Of course, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with external factors.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/consumer/cash-strapped-global-consumers-spent-and-saved-less-in-q4-2012/

Nope.

drjim
02-18-2013, 06:46 PM
You're right, we should wait for Mike Trout. Then we'll get the fans going again. Your positions on these issues are maddening. I'm not sure how to approach something so absurd as "Nothing they could've done to add talent to this team would make fans excited"

Outside of signing Greinke or a huge overpay I unfortunately think this is true. Only two things will really excite a fan base -success or a young core. The first wouldn't happen this year even with all the moves suggested on this site and the second is (hopefully) a year away.

You can say with other moves the team would be significantly more successful. I disagree. It made sense for a couple of signings to bridge the next wave and you can nitpick said signings but it does little to change the underlying reality of the state of the team. They are a year or two from relevancy so they want to avoid bad contracts and not block younger players.

ThePuck
02-18-2013, 06:58 PM
what happened to the 'like' option on this site?

FrodaddyG
02-18-2013, 07:04 PM
If you think adding three new starters to the opening day rotation is nothing I don't know what to say. I agree that the upgrade could have been marginally better with McCarthy or Marcum but to virtually all fans that difference really wouldn't register and certainly wouldn't impact decisions to buy tickets.
Maybe not on Opening Day, but if they bring in better pitchers, there's a better chance that the fans haven't been completely turned off by the additions' poor performance by early summer.

twinsnorth49
02-18-2013, 07:15 PM
Outside of signing Greinke or a huge overpay I unfortunately think this is true. Only two things will really excite a fan base -success or a young core. The first wouldn't happen this year even with all the moves suggested on this site and the second is (hopefully) a year away.

You can say with other moves the team would be significantly more successful. I disagree. It made sense for a couple of signings to bridge the next wave and you can nitpick said signings but it does little to change the underlying reality of the state of the team. They are a year or two from relevancy so they want to avoid bad contracts and not block younger players.

What bad contracts are you speaking of and who on God's green earth would they be blocking?

Thrylos
02-18-2013, 07:16 PM
Probably as long as people think any of those moves would make much of a difference in attendance this year.

I agree with you that they made their bed, but only in the sense that they have sucked the past two years and the organization is in pretty bad shape as far as young talent in the majors is concerned. That is what keeps people away, not signing Correia instead of Saunders or Marcum.

Signing another mediocre pitcher or 2 (who the average person who buys tickets does not know from Adam) would not have helped the Twins' attendance...

What would have helped? (and they have money to burn allegedly this season) :

- Trade with the Mets for the last season of Johan Santana under contract (let them eat half of his salary and just give them a marginal prospect back - The Twins would have to pay as much as they gave Correia guaranteed)
- Sign Jim Thome (still a free agent) and keep him on the bench instead of Butera.
- Make sure that you showcase and let some of the kids who are the future of your organization (Meyer, Gibson, Hicks) play instead of so-so veterans.

People will pay and put their butts on TF seats for that. Not to watch Correia and Mastroianni (but also not for Sanders and Marcum...) If Harden is healthy, people will pay to watch him pitch.

And if you do not believe me with the above assessment, go back in history and see what happened when the Twins signed the ghost of Lefty Carlton's past, as far as attendance went in games he pitched....

ND-Fan
02-18-2013, 07:18 PM
The Twins history on this is classical they are going to build this team from within like they did in 90's and weather it makes good busines sense or not. The Twins after the 1991 world series drew 3 million people but with aging team retrirements and injuries they were down to poor team being filled in with low cost replacement player but they had 1.5 million draw until they turned team around in 2000's. I betting they are going to have same thing happen again your 2.1 million probably will be
pretty close if they have the year everyone thinks there going to have. It could be even worse than 2.1 million because alot of the tickest may be sold but know one showing up for the games. If things are bad this year next years tickets sales are even going to be worse people will go on lark if ticks are cheap and are not going invest in tickests until this team is prooven to turning things around. I would just love to hear how baseball operations explain this to business side of twins when revenues are falling for puttting a poor team out their with money left in the budget to improved this team for the coming year. Terry Ryan philosphy of not spending on free agents and just be patience of building from within has to be supported by ownership on least amount risk to the organiztion.

JB_Iowa
02-18-2013, 08:05 PM
Am I the only one that thinks these figures seem high? They seem high to me as well. I'm sure the All Star game has had a positive influence. But I'd also discount the figures somewhat simply based on the fact that the information is coming from Dave St. Peter. You know that he is always going to spin, spin, spin.

Highabove
02-18-2013, 08:55 PM
Has anybody heard the (50% of revenue is for payroll) line this year??
It will probably be brought out again next year when needed.

Kwak
02-18-2013, 10:50 PM
Declining ticket sales? What do people normally spend their entertainment dollars on? Is it bargain-priced performers--say at the small venues around town? To be sure some do, but the bulk of the money goes to productions with recognizable stars. Movies, music, theature, and definately sports. Presently configured the Twins are clearly lacking in "star" quality. It is unreasonable to expect Mauer to fill Target Field all by himself. Declining tickets sales should be expected--but it also illustrates the out-moded thinking of the Twins. Broadcasting revenues is where the big money resides. The Yankees (and now the Dodgers) have been maligned for "overspending" by the sour-grapes crowd. But Steinbrenner rebuilt a decrepit franchise into a financial powerhouse by spending, spending, and media attention. Consumer product companies spend enormous sums to "build their brand"--but the Twins cut budget. Budget cutting might have made sense when they were winning because the success would build and retain the fan base--but with the team clearly in a "decline phase" it is foolish. There is little to induce excitement for the fanbase and the "ho-hum" results of this off-season only excerbate the problem. Quality players won't retard franchise growth but rather assist said growth. If "someone is in the way" (makes me laugh right now!) that person can be moved easily enough. That problem has been solved by other franchises, so the Twins can just use a known solution. That excuse of ("blocking young players") is simply smoke and mirrors to lamely try to justify their myopic strategy of slash-and-burn.

drjim
02-18-2013, 11:59 PM
Has anybody heard the (50% of revenue is for payroll) line this year??
It will probably be brought out again next year when needed.

I don't know if they have said it explicitly but all the comments of St. Peter and Ryan suggest they are well below budget (as in payroll is not at 50% of projected revenues). I don't think they are trying to hide it.

drjim
02-19-2013, 12:05 AM
Maybe not on Opening Day, but if they bring in better pitchers, there's a better chance that the fans haven't been completely turned off by the additions' poor performance by early summer.

Fair point, but I am still skeptical that the moves that have been talked about would be clearly better pitchers. I know people disagree with this. It would have been nice to bring in another representative arm that could start the year in the rotation but for a variety of reasons the Twins failed to do so.

edavis0308
02-19-2013, 08:52 AM
Fair point, but I am still skeptical that the moves that have been talked about would be clearly better pitchers. I know people disagree with this. It would have been nice to bring in another representative arm that could start the year in the rotation but for a variety of reasons the Twins failed to do so.

All I know is that I live in Iowa, and in previous years, if I would choose on a whim to come up to a game, I would check pitching matchups and try to pick the best pitcher to come see. In Liriano's dominant year, I tried to get tickets to see him pitch. Am I a little over the top compared to others? Probably, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that others, if given between game A and game B, would choose to see the better pitcher (or the non getaway day lineup).

Fast forward to this year. Yada Yada Yada. Maybe Gibson.

drjim
02-19-2013, 09:10 AM
All I know is that I live in Iowa, and in previous years, if I would choose on a whim to come up to a game, I would check pitching matchups and try to pick the best pitcher to come see. In Liriano's dominant year, I tried to get tickets to see him pitch. Am I a little over the top compared to others? Probably, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility that others, if given between game A and game B, would choose to see the better pitcher (or the non getaway day lineup).

Fast forward to this year. Yada Yada Yada. Maybe Gibson.

I did the same thing with Liriano and Santana. I don't think Saunders or Marcum would inspire a similar following had they signed.

fairweather
02-19-2013, 09:13 AM
What do the Twins expect? They signed 2 of the 3 worst FA pitchers available. No one knows why the Twins signed these guys but everyone is pretty sure they don't want to watch Pelfrey or Correia pitch. There was only 3 FA pitchers that they could have signed that wouldn't have been an improvement over the kids they had pitching last season and the Twins signed 2 of them because they're cheap.

edavis0308
02-19-2013, 09:18 AM
I did the same thing with Liriano and Santana. I don't think Saunders or Marcum would inspire a similar following had they signed.

Well, no, you are correct. However, I also wouldnt go out of my way to make sure I wasnt going to their games like I will with Correia & AAA filler callups. That's worth something too.

ThePuck
02-19-2013, 10:13 AM
'"I don't think there's any question the Tigers will be favored on paper," Twins general manager Terry Ryan said. "But the Royals have done quite a bit, the Indians have done quite a bit, the White Sox were competitive for about five and a half months last year. This division has improved, and there's a lot of optimism in a few towns here, I know that."

Notice the team Ryan DIDN'T mention?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130219&content_id=41779112&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:27 AM
Probably as long as people think any of those moves would make much of a difference in attendance this year.

I agree with you that they made their bed, but only in the sense that they have sucked the past two years and the organization is in pretty bad shape as far as young talent in the majors is concerned. That is what keeps people away, not signing Correia instead of Saunders or Marcum.

Better players generally help teams win more games. Teams that win more games generally stay in contention longer. Staying in contention longer generally increases fan attendance.

With a few lucky breaks and a couple more good players, the Twins would have an outside shot at contention in 2013.

Except they didn't find a couple more good players, which means that they have to roll sixes ten times straight to contend this season.

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:30 AM
They did bring in three new starters and a couple of bullpen arms. I think they are trying to get better while also balancing against avoiding bad contracts and not blocking young players.

I understand people don't like the Correia signing - I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd.

Two years to Correia.

One year to Marcum.

One year to Saunders.

These aren't complaints about "pet signings". There were over a dozen guys on the market better than Correia. The Twins didn't get a single one of them and then gave Correia an extra year.

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 10:37 AM
They did bring in three new starters and a couple of bullpen arms. I think they are trying to get better while also balancing against avoiding bad contracts and not blocking young players.

I understand people don't like the Correia signing - I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd. I'll tell you what's "absurd." The idea that "not blocking young players" is a reason the Twins didn't sign major league pitchers this offseason is "absurd." First off, who would be blocked? Secondly, since when is it bad to have too many good players? What possible damage could be done to the Twins if they had too many quality players? What's the worst that could happen? Rochester would have quality starting pitching, dominating AAA, just waiting for the chance to shine in the big leagues? Waiting for an injury or trade to open up a spot in Minneapolis? Sheesh. This whole "blocking players" line is one of the most poorly thought out excuses imaginable. We should be so lucky as to have good players "blocked."

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:41 AM
I'll tell you what's "absurd." The idea that "not blocking young players" is a reason the Twins didn't sign major league pitchers this offseason is "absurd." First off, who would be blocked? Secondly, since when is it bad to have too many good players? What possible damage could be done to the Twins if they had too many quality players? What's the worst that could happen? Rochester would have quality starting pitching, dominating AAA, just waiting for the chance to shine in the big leagues? Waiting for an injury or trade to open up a spot in Minneapolis? Sheesh. This whole "blocking players" line is one of the most poorly thought out excuses imaginable. We should be so lucky as to have good players "blocked."

Now now, Chief. If the Twins picked up too many starters, here are a few of the players who might be blocked.

1. Kyle Gibson
2. Liam Hendriks
3. Kyle Gibson throwing left-handed
4. Drew Butera
5. ???
6. Profit?

edavis0308
02-19-2013, 10:50 AM
Now now, Chief. If the Twins picked up too many starters, here are a few of the players who might be blocked.

1. Kyle Gibson
2. Liam Hendriks
3. Kyle Gibson throwing left-handed
4. Drew Butera
5. ???
6. Profit?

Dont forget Scott Elar-whatshisface.

snepp
02-19-2013, 10:52 AM
I'll tell you what's "absurd." The idea that "not blocking young players" is a reason the Twins didn't sign major league pitchers this offseason is "absurd." First off, who would be blocked? Secondly, since when is it bad to have too many good players? What possible damage could be done to the Twins if they had too many quality players? What's the worst that could happen? Rochester would have quality starting pitching, dominating AAA, just waiting for the chance to shine in the big leagues? Waiting for an injury or trade to open up a spot in Minneapolis? Sheesh. This whole "blocking players" line is one of the most poorly thought out excuses imaginable. We should be so lucky as to have good players "blocked."

Like.


Now now, Chief. If the Twins picked up too many starters, here are a few of the players who might be blocked.

1. Kyle Gibson
2. Liam Hendriks
3. Kyle Gibson throwing left-handed
4. Drew Butera
5. ???
6. Profit?

Like.


Dont forget Scott Elar-whatshisface.

Like.

drjim
02-19-2013, 12:12 PM
I'll tell you what's "absurd." The idea that "not blocking young players" is a reason the Twins didn't sign major league pitchers this offseason is "absurd." First off, who would be blocked? Secondly, since when is it bad to have too many good players? What possible damage could be done to the Twins if they had too many quality players? What's the worst that could happen? Rochester would have quality starting pitching, dominating AAA, just waiting for the chance to shine in the big leagues? Waiting for an injury or trade to open up a spot in Minneapolis? Sheesh. This whole "blocking players" line is one of the most poorly thought out excuses imaginable. We should be so lucky as to have good players "blocked."

Nice rant but I have never suggested they don't sign another starting pitcher. Ever. In fact my previous post said they had failed in this endeavor.

There are more positions than starting pitcher were the Twins actually have young guys worthy of getting a shot (especially Plouffe, Parmelee, Dozier, Hicks, Arcia)

drjim
02-19-2013, 12:23 PM
Acgually I want to edit my statement slightly. When the Twins missed on Saunders I think I wrote that he would have blocked Gibson and that might have been undesirable. I would walk back that posting to the point that I would be in favor of another representative starter in camp right now.

I would still be skeptical that an extra starter in camp would lead to a higher ticket demand right now.

greengoblinrulz
02-19-2013, 12:27 PM
Personally wont spend any $$ to the Twins for tickets (have to on concessions) as i will buy tix off the streets(as will many) so they wont make additional income off of that
This thought will cost Twins hundreds of thousands in tix sales from disgruntled fans who want to see a better attempt from mgt

Willihammer
02-19-2013, 01:01 PM
Personally wont spend any $$ to the Twins for tickets (have to on concessions) as i will buy tix off the streets(as will many) so they wont make additional income off of that
This thought will cost Twins hundreds of thousands in tix sales from disgruntled fans who want to see a better attempt from mgt
You better hope those tix aren't sold before you buy them. A guy can sell his tickets for download to someone on stubhub, then take the physical tix to the corner, and sell those too.

drjim
02-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Two years to Correia.

One year to Marcum.

One year to Saunders.

These aren't complaints about "pet signings". There were over a dozen guys on the market better than Correia. The Twins didn't get a single one of them and then gave Correia an extra year.

Trust me on one thing - you don't have to convince me the Correia contract was a bad one or that the Twins had better options they could have signed.

Our fundamental disagreement stems from my position that if instead of Correia the Twins signed one of the other guys advocated for on this board (ie Saunders and/or Marcum) it would only be a marginal upgrade (1-2 wins, maybe 3 if everything breaks right). This is not nothing but hardly a reason for the weeping and gnashing of teeth that has overtaken this board.

Also, as it pertains to this article/thread specifically - even if Terry Ryan did everything you advocated it would have done very little (if anything) to reverse the trend on ticket sales for reasons I have already laid out.

edavis0308
02-19-2013, 01:13 PM
Trust me on one thing - you don't have to convince me the Correia contract was a bad one or that the Twins had better options they could have signed.

Our fundamental disagreement stems from my position that if instead of Correia the Twins signed one of the other guys advocated for on this board (ie Saunders and/or Marcum) it would only be a marginal upgrade (1-2 wins, maybe 3 if everything breaks right). This is not nothing but hardly a reason for the weeping and gnashing of teeth that has overtaken this board.

Also, as it pertains to this article/thread specifically - even if Terry Ryan did everything you advocated it would have done very little (if anything) to reverse the trend on ticket sales for reasons I have already laid out.

I think I posted the question elsewhere but, how many wins do we need to improve by before the improvements are worth doing? 5? 8? 10? 15?

twinsnorth49
02-19-2013, 02:46 PM
There's this


Fair point, but I am still skeptical that the moves that have been talked about would be clearly better pitchers. I know people disagree with this. It would have been nice to bring in another representative arm that could start the year in the rotation but for a variety of reasons the Twins failed to do so.

but there is also this


They did bring in three new starters and a couple of bullpen arms. I think they are trying to get better while also balancing against avoiding bad contracts and not blocking young players.

I understand people don't like the Correia signing - I don't either! But to take a decrease in season tickets sales and to suggest the reason is because of some pet signing they didn't do is absurd.

I'm not really sure where you stand and I still don't get the blocking issue, blocking who?

twinsnorth49
02-19-2013, 03:06 PM
You better hope those tix aren't sold before you buy them. A guy can sell his tickets for download to someone on stubhub, then take the physical tix to the corner, and sell those too.

This is a bit of needless fear mongering, while there may be an outlying instance of this happening, it's exceedingly rare. In any case, if that's a concern just buy them on StubHub, they'll be cheap there as well and god knows once you're in you'll be able to sit pretty much wherever you want.

drjim
02-19-2013, 03:09 PM
I'm not really sure where you stand and I still don't get the blocking issue, blocking who?

I admit this is a little unclear as I tried to limit the length of my responses. I am talking about blocking position players moreso than starting pitchers. I would generally subscribe to the theory that you can never have enough starting pitching.

I think the following position players should have significant playing time this year - Parmelee, Dozier, Plouffe, Hicks, Benson, and then Arcia and perhaps Herrmann and Santana later in the year. I do not think the Twins should have signed a free agent at any position except for possibly SS and maybe the right CF on a one year deal. With these limitations there were few (if any) position players that would have made sense to sign. So what I was trying to say, that as the Twins were looking to make improvements this offseason, it was limited what could happen on the position player side to avoid blocking any of the young players listed. There were some MIs that were suggested, but I'm not sure they were any better than Carroll at this point. Brignac would have been a nice guy to take a flier on but I wouldn't have given anything of much value for him.

For pitching, they did fill three slots and could have easily filled a fourth, perhaps they should have. As has been pointed out, this is especially true because most of the pitchers are coming off surgeries in the past year and Gibson has an innings limitation. However, if all the new pitchers stay healthy through spring training and are ready to go (and that is a big if right now), and if the Twins had signed a fourth new starter (say Saunders or Marcum), both Gibson and Hendriks would have started in the minors, so in essence they would have been blocked. This would have been fine, but I am also of the opinion that Gibson should probably just start the season in the rotation so I'm not especially devastated by the fact that the Twins didn't sign another pitcher.

I hope this would also answer the question from edavis. I would sign anyone that improves the win total so long as the signing falls within the following parameters. The signing would have to not block a younger player and it would have to not be a contract that could be a potential hindrance in 2015. That would leave the following possibilities for the Twins as currently constructed:
1. Another starter on a 1-2 year deal or Greinke (which wasn't going to happen). The Twins failed at this but we don't have all the information. Quite frankly the only three guys that I felt got away were McCarthy, Marcum and Saunders. McCarthy seemed to want to stay west, it was reported that Saunders pretty much didn't want to come to Minnesota, and the Marcum situation is a mystery that has been speculated on to death.
2. A one year deal for a stopgap CF - I don't know if this type of player was really on the market
3. A SS - same as the CF, didn't really exist on the market
4. Another RP - this would have been fine with me, but I wouldn't go more than a year and I generally think the bullpen is currently in acceptable condition

StormJH1
02-19-2013, 03:26 PM
Gonna try to keep this post about ticket sales, rather than Twins personnel decisions...

I go to an average of about a game per month, so something like 5-10 games per year. Despite my wife not being a particularly huge sports fan, she enjoys live baseball and the ballpark experience. Through her company, we had put in for raffles for outfield seats and paid face value for them the first 3 years of the team. So, probably about $200 - $300 for the whole year (not to mention the absurd beer and food prices and parking), but even in retrospect, I feel that was good value for a great experience at the ballpark. I don't hunt or fish, and we aren't cabin people. While everyone and their grandpa uses summer weekends to get as far away from the Cities as possible, we view that as the time we want to be in the city going to a ballgame, eating/drinking outside, etc.

But this year we finally wised up and did not get tickets in advance. (Well, except for the opener, which is cool to see any year). First, our seats were in the OF and were a lot of day games, and summer day games in LF can be fairly brutal, as hard as that is to conceptualize in mid-February. But given that this is probably about a 70-win team again, I'd really just like to try doing the same-day StubHub thing and seeing how cheap we can get in the park. It'd be more interesting to sit in different parts of the park anyway, and we can just walk around and get beer.

Long story short - I'll still be there even if the team remains bad because I like the experience. But I'm done paying face value for those tickets. They make enough money off concessions as it is.

twinsnorth49
02-19-2013, 03:55 PM
Long story short - I'll still be there even if the team remains bad because I like the experience. But I'm done paying face value for those tickets. They make enough money off concessions as it is.

At the end of the day these are my sentiments exactly, well stated.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 04:13 PM
At the end of the day these are my sentiments exactly, well stated.

Yup, after being one of those people selling on Stub Hub the last season and a half, time for me to get some cheap tickets. I love the experience and love the team, but I'm going to take the same approach to my ticket buying that the team did with payroll.

I just worry about the future payrolls when it matters.

Highabove
02-19-2013, 05:49 PM
Breaking News

The Twins will not allow a Ticket on Stub Hub to be listed under $3.00

The Twins must be protecting their Season Ticket Holders.

Willihammer
02-19-2013, 05:55 PM
I know there is some flexibility for teams to do their own thing but are you sure? This says the min. is actually $6

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8732189/major-league-baseball-stubhub-renew-secondary-ticket-market-deal

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 06:03 PM
All setting a minimum price does is guarantee some people in some markets get nothing for their tickets. At times last September I was happy to get $3.

Willihammer
02-19-2013, 06:13 PM
"Under StubHub's new pricing model, customers will pay a $2.25 delivery fee per ticket up to $10. That's compared to a flat $5.40 delivery fee before. The service fee was lowered to $3 for tickets under $50, and is a percentage of the price above that number."

I looked it up. I paid $10.45 in fees per transaction last year. Now fees are going to be half that, on tickets under $10 anyway.

$3 min. sounds like a net win for everybody actually. $6, not so much.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 06:18 PM
I looked it up. I paid $10.45 in fees per transaction last year. Now fees are going to be half that, on tickets under $10 anyway.

$3 min. sounds like a net win for everybody actually. $6, not so much.

I do like the fees dropping, that was a real irritation last year.

CDog
02-20-2013, 11:55 AM
Despite my wife not being a particularly huge sports fan, she enjoys live baseball and the ballpark experience...

I'd really just like to try doing the same-day StubHub thing and seeing how cheap we can get in the park. It'd be more interesting to sit in different parts of the park anyway, and we can just walk around and get beer...

Long story short - I'll still be there even if the team remains bad because I like the experience.

I've been in a fairly similar situation. The one thing I like about getting several games (we do about once a month) set ahead of time is that it avoids the all-too-common situation where you just don't get around to going as much as you'd think. When you have the tickets already, it forces you to go. Especially with a wife that isn't all that tied to the team or the sport, it gets really easy for us (especially in the summer) to have this, that, or the other come up and get in the way of going to games.

Having said that, the StubHub route can be a really good way to find something cheaper than it normally would be and get into different areas of the ballpark like you mention. I've managed to sit in nearly every area now, and it's fun to mix it up with a different view and perspective. Best of luck in the endeavor this year. And if the fees on SH are coming down a little bit, even better.

Willihammer
02-20-2013, 08:14 PM
OK now stubhub is telling me there is in fact no minimum price.

Also there is a new "MLB Transfer fee" of $1.50 per transaction

Also saying the deliver fee is $2. Not $2.25

Kwak
02-20-2013, 09:32 PM
"Overpay". "Block young players". "Worry about future payrolls". ?????
It makes me wonder if there is some kind of Stockholm Syndrome happening or if there are shills posting as average fans on this site. I have lived in quite a few cities around the nation, interacted with fans of many different (professional) teams and I must say I just don't recall anybody (but a claimed Twins fan) express concern if the owner "overpayed" for a player. Almost always I hear complaints that they have a [disappointing] team and/or their "cheap/dumb (xxx) owner won't spend more to improve their team. Universally all agree atheletes are "paid too much" but aren't at all concerned about the owner's profit margin.

Gernzy
02-21-2013, 08:49 AM
I have a 20 game plan that a few co-workers buy some of my games. I'll go to at least 10 of the games. It's still a good deal I don't plan on getting rid of my tickets just because the team is back. Going to Target Field on a beautiful summer day is still a blast.

Plus I plan on going to all the All Star events next year.

Willihammer
02-21-2013, 09:23 AM
I agree with you Gernzy, and I would question the idea that 1.8 million sold tickets as of last Saturday is very muted at all. I wonder what sales were last year at this time?

drjim
02-21-2013, 09:28 AM
"Overpay". "Block young players". "Worry about future payrolls". ?????
It makes me wonder if there is some kind of Stockholm Syndrome happening or if there are shills posting as average fans on this site. I have lived in quite a few cities around the nation, interacted with fans of many different (professional) teams and I
must say I just don't recall anybody (but a claimed Twins fan) express concern if the owner "overpayed" for a player. Almost always I hear complaints that they have a [disappointing] team and/or their "cheap/dumb (xxx) owner won't spend more to improve their team. Universally all agree atheletes are "paid too much" but aren't at all concerned about the owner's profit margin.

This is probably why you wouldn't want most fans anywhere near the front office.