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View Full Version : Bollinger: Herrmann Hopes to break camp as 3rd catcher



Seth Stohs
02-16-2013, 08:14 AM
Herrmann looks to break camp as third catcher | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130215&content_id=41690418&notebook_id=41690524&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min)


"There's always a chance, but it's not going to be handed to me," Herrmann said of making the team. "Just because I was up there last year doesn't mean I'll be up there this year. So I'm trying to find a way to work my back up there again and hopefully stay up there."

LaBombo
02-16-2013, 01:41 PM
Showing up early doesn't necessarily correlate straight up with motivation or effort. That being said, I think I'd still feel like dog poo if I showed up at camp later than Dozier and my last name rhymed with 'Blorimon' or 'Blescoblar'.

John Bonnes
02-16-2013, 02:03 PM
Unless someone gets hurt, I gotta think there is no chance for Herrmann breaking with the club. And even if someone is hurt, they might not. They might want him to get some time at AAA, and I have no problem with that.

Seth Stohs
02-16-2013, 02:46 PM
Yeah, nothing in his 2012 New Britain numbers say that there is any reason to push up him to the big leagues to start 2013. His value comes in his ability to catch and his versatility. He was drafted as a catcher, then played LF a lot up to Ft. Myers, and played infield and outfield positions in college. He also takes very good at bats. So, I think he can be that #3 catcher while also playing some LF. there's value in that.

TheLeviathan
02-16-2013, 02:51 PM
The reason to push Herman is that our current third catcher is totally inept at a crucial portion of the game.

snepp
02-16-2013, 03:01 PM
Maybe it'll work out like this....


Morneau hits really well, but the team stinks, they trade him in June.

Hermann hits well at AAA, shows that it's time for a call-up.

Butera gets sent packing, Hermann becomes the primary backup catcher, Doumit serves as 3rd catcher while using some of the 1B/DH time vacated by Morneau to remain in the lineup.


And then we flip heads 8 consecutive times in the pitching staff to be a contender.

twinsnorth49
02-16-2013, 03:04 PM
Showing up early doesn't necessarily correlate straight up with motivation or effort. That being said, I think I'd still feel like dog poo if I showed up at camp later than Dozier and my last name rhymed with 'Blorimon' or 'Blescoblar'.


And if my last name rhymed with Buterrible, Hermann showing up early should make me feel like dog poo, but it doesn't and that's a problem.

LaBombo
02-16-2013, 03:37 PM
And if my last name rhymed with Buterrible, Hermann showing up early should make me feel like dog poo, but it doesn't and that's a problem.

Funny that I haven't seen that derivation of his name until now. My brain will automatically be appending that from now on.

in all fairness to Floribar and Escomon, for all I know they may have risked life and limb in some godforsaken south of the border league, trying to add some semblance of offense to their game.

On the other hand, I have it on remarkably poor authority that Byooty has taken the unconventional offseason measure of working on only his head first slides into first with Little Nicky, a process certain to push his OPS north of the .500 mark that will ensure, along with his defensive rep, a decade of one year backup gigs, or at least ST invites.

drjim
02-16-2013, 05:41 PM
I think it would be a terrible role for Herrmann to break camp as a third catcher. He could use the defensive reps and at bats playing everyday in Rochester.

I still think if either Doumit or Mauer gets hurt Herrmann will come up to take their roles while Butera would stay in the third catcher role.

drjim
02-16-2013, 05:42 PM
Showing up early doesn't necessarily correlate straight up with motivation or effort. That being said, I think I'd still feel like dog poo if I showed up at camp later than Dozier and my last name rhymed with 'Blorimon' or 'Blescoblar'.

Might have something to do with the country they reside in and the amount of winter league ball they played.

ThePuck
02-16-2013, 05:45 PM
Showing up early doesn't necessarily correlate straight up with motivation or effort. That being said, I think I'd still feel like dog poo if I showed up at camp later than Dozier and my last name rhymed with 'Blorimon' or 'Blescoblar'.

That was funny :-)

Thrylos
02-16-2013, 05:48 PM
Maybe it'll work out like this....


Morneau hits really well, but the team stinks, they trade him in June.

Hermann hits well at AAA, shows that it's time for a call-up.

Butera gets sent packing, Hermann becomes the primary backup catcher, Doumit serves as 3rd catcher while using some of the 1B/DH time vacated by Morneau to remain in the lineup.


And then we flip heads 8 consecutive times in the pitching staff to be a contender.

For Butera to be sent packing, Gardy needs to be sent packing. And unless both happen, Herrmann has no chance to make the team bar injuries.

stringer bell
02-16-2013, 06:03 PM
What is the projection for Herrmann? I've gotten the feeling that the team doesn't see him as more than a backup catcher or a third catcher/utility guy. If that is the case, why not have Herrmann make the club if he is demonstrably better than Butera and just about anyone can see that Herrmann can and will hit better than Son of Sal.

Jim H
02-16-2013, 08:53 PM
Actually, in his brief callup Herrmann didn't show that he can hit better than Butera. Still, Herrmann is young and probably needs work on both his offense and defense. I suspect that he will never be more than a big league backup, but it is too early to make that call. I think he needs to be at AAA working on his game. I also think that for the couple of extra hits Herrmann might provide over the 100-150 AB's that Butera will get, well I'd rather have Butera. He is clearly the beter defensive catcher, right now.

Thrylos
02-16-2013, 09:41 PM
What is the projection for Herrmann? I've gotten the feeling that the team doesn't see him as more than a backup catcher or a third catcher/utility guy. If that is the case, why not have Herrmann make the club if he is demonstrably better than Butera and just about anyone can see that Herrmann can and will hit better than Son of Sal.

Here is the thing about Herrmann: In College he played C and 3B. (Despite what you might hear - and I doubled checked my 2009 draft logs - the Twins disregarded that and drafted him as an OF. And that's where he played exclusively in 2009 and mostly in 2010 (he caught some then) at 2011 it was about half C, half OF and in 2012 was mostly C. No 3B but he could play there too. He can and has hit better in any level than what's his face. As far as where he projects, hard to tell, but I think that Doumit light might be a fair analogy (but this comes from someone who remember the days when Doumit was projected to be the next catching stud.) So ceiling probably Doumit with probably little better fielding. (which is something that Drew cannot even dream to be.)

nicksaviking
02-16-2013, 09:44 PM
I think half of us assume Butera will get the job because we love to complain about the coaching staff and the front office ignoring the "no scholarship" clause they said was implemented last year (full disclosure: me included). The other half of us probably think Butera will get the job because Herrmann would rarely play and he needs reps at AAA.

Looking at the camp situation now, I think we are making this situation out to be much more simplistic than it really is. For one, jobs are clearly on the line this year; if Herrmann has a great spring and Butera does not, there will be pressure to bring north the best players. Secondly, Herrmann has position flexibility. If neither Hicks or Benson impress enough to break camp on the 25-man and they go with another option, say Boggs, Thomas or an outsider like Posednik, they could chose Herrmann as the 3rd catcher as he may be the preferred choice to be the 4th/5th OF and save Doumit from doing so.

Kwak
02-16-2013, 09:50 PM
Why are we even discussing who got outhit by Butera?

The Wise One
02-16-2013, 10:21 PM
Showing up early doesn't necessarily correlate straight up with motivation or effort. That being said, I think I'd still feel like dog poo if I showed up at camp later than Dozier and my last name rhymed with 'Blorimon' or 'Blescoblar'.

Good lord, bastardizing people's names as a way to ridicule them. We did that in grade school. We also grew out of it

TheLeviathan
02-16-2013, 10:28 PM
Good lord, bastardizing people's names as a way to ridicule them. We did that in grade school. We also grew out of it

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate - should not be the topic of any conversations on this forum. But, unfortunately, he remains a part of our team and thus our discourse about them.

But perhaps an analogy would be better. Some of us learned that if we touch a hot burner, we get burned and learn to stop it. Apparently the Twins have not "grown out of" touching the hot burner. They keep repeating some of the same mistakes, perhaps you should take up that issue with them as well.

twinsnorth49
02-16-2013, 11:03 PM
Good lord, bastardizing people's names as a way to ridicule them. We did that in grade school. We also grew out of it

Good lord, get a sense of humour. We're talking about baseball, since when did that equate to growing up?

The Wise One
02-16-2013, 11:28 PM
Good lord, get a sense of humour. We're talking about baseball, since when did that equate to growing up?

I have a fine sense of humor, there is nothing funny in denigrating people. I would love to see Leviathan in the batters box against Drew Butera pitching. I think that could be real funny. The venom spewed forth this winter by people on this site. It is only baseball

TheLeviathan
02-16-2013, 11:37 PM
I have a fine sense of humor, there is nothing funny in denigrating people. I would love to see Leviathan in the batters box against Drew Butera pitching. I think that could be real funny. The venom spewed forth this winter by people on this site. It is only baseball

I'm sorry, but this is insanity. If you bring your car into the mechanic and he returns it to you with three wheels, no brakes, and a broken windshield....do you avoid critiquing his performance because you're not a mechanic?

Where, in my post, where did I denigrate Butera the person? If you feel bad for Butera because of harsh critiques, perhaps you should suggest to him to stop playing a highly public game he's not very good at? At least then your efforts will be both rational and helpful for our favorite team.

LaBombo
02-16-2013, 11:55 PM
Actually, in his brief callup Herrmann didn't show that he can hit better than Butera. Still, Herrmann is young and probably needs work on both his offense and defense. I suspect that he will never be more than a big league backup, but it is too early to make that call. I think he needs to be at AAA working on his game. I also think that for the couple of extra hits Herrmann might provide over the 100-150 AB's that Butera will get, well I'd rather have Butera. He is clearly the beter defensive catcher, right now.

I'm all for having Herrmann start in AAA rather than catch one game a week with the Twins. But the idea that 18 at bats shows anything about a player sounds pretty far-fetched to me. I'd rather trust 1500 minor league AB's that say Herrmann has a good chance to put up an OPS at least 100 points higher than Butera's in the majors.

LaBombo
02-17-2013, 12:15 AM
Might have something to do with the country they reside in and the amount of winter league ball they played.

A possibility I acknowledged in my next post. But their winter ball league ended in mid-January. Also, Dozier played a little in the Venezuelan winter league.

As I said, I don't place much stock in who shows up early, or really any other story from week one of spring training other than injuries. But since the middle infield is basically an open casting call this year, it's a little surprising that they weren't there early to collect some easy brownie points. This has zero meaning to me about their motivation, preparation or anything else.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
02-17-2013, 01:12 AM
I think Herrmann could potentially be more valuable than Doumit at home plate. At least I hope so. The one article posted here about Doumit's squeeze costing us 20 runs really affected my view on him. Is Herrmann much better behind the plate? I doubt he's a significant upgrade, but I hope it's the other way around. Both SHOULD be able to produce with the bat, but I do like the Doumit can switch hit.

old nurse
02-17-2013, 07:45 AM
I'm sorry, but this is insanity. If you bring your car into the mechanic and he returns it to you with three wheels, no brakes, and a broken windshield....do you avoid critiquing his performance because you're not a mechanic?

Where, in my post, where did I denigrate Butera the person? If you feel bad for Butera because of harsh critiques, perhaps you should suggest to him to stop playing a highly public game he's not very good at? At least then your efforts will be both rational and helpful for our favorite team.

You said he has a scholarship like he doesn't deserve the money he makes. Butera does not decide where he plays. He comes to work and does his job, others decide when and where and thus how much he gets paid. No where have I ever read where there is a problem with his work ethic. If he was the personal catcher for some pitchers then he must have been doing something right.

TheLeviathan
02-17-2013, 08:48 AM
You said he has a scholarship like he doesn't deserve the money he makes. Butera does not decide where he plays. He comes to work and does his job, others decide when and where and thus how much he gets paid. No where have I ever read where there is a problem with his work ethic. If he was the personal catcher for some pitchers then he must have been doing something right.

The scholarship reference has been used for over a year on BYTO and TD. It's in reference to roster spots as the Twins stated that there would be no more "scholarships" and roster spots would need to be earned. Though I'd also argue that Butera isn't earning his pay either, hard to do that when you are historically inept at what you do.

An MLB bench should be versatile and capable. Butera is half capable at best, whereas at least Hermann is versatile and (in all likelihood) a more capable all around player.

old nurse
02-17-2013, 09:19 AM
The scholarship reference has been used for over a year on BYTO and TD. It's in reference to roster spots as the Twins stated that there would be no more "scholarships" and roster spots would need to be earned. Though I'd also argue that Butera isn't earning his pay either, hard to do that when you are historically inept at what you do.

An MLB bench should be versatile and capable. Butera is half capable at best, whereas at least Hermann is versatile and (in all likelihood) a more capable all around player.

I don't give a rat's ass when the term scholarship was first used. The point it it is used in regards to Butera. Doesn't change facts Butera is a poor hitter and he has a roster spot. . He has been a poor hitter his whole career. Whoever makes the decisions on the Twins roster knows that. Butera has a spot because someone wants three catchers and Butera has earned that spot over other players. When Hermann shows he is better than Butera, Butera will be demoted. Hermann has not shown that at the major league or the AAA level. Butera at least has earned his money. No one criticizes his effort. The lack of effort like Valencia showed is what brought out the scholarship quote.

TheLeviathan
02-17-2013, 09:39 AM
I don't give a rat's ass when the term scholarship was first used.

Well, perhaps you should so you don't ignorantly reply to posts referencing it. The rest of your post really doesn't warrant a response.

Shane Wahl
02-17-2013, 10:03 AM
The reason to push Herman is that our current third catcher is totally inept at a crucial portion of the game.

Haha. Well in that case he should have been promoted to Rochester midway through last season. There was no reason not to other than to see Herrmann and Hicks operate 1-2 in the order successfully. Herrmann's time is coming though.

John Bonnes
02-17-2013, 01:53 PM
I don't think anyone here is going to argue that Butera isn't a terrible hitter. He's historically bad.

That said, I'd still rather have him on the roster than Herrmann. Herrmann isn't ready. One could argue that Butera isn't either, but Herrmann has a chance to be ready if he continues his development, and I see no reason to risk that development, even if it means he ends up as a backup catcher.

I'll also say this - Butera's defense is valuable. It might be especially valuable for a team that has two starting catchers that can hit but struggle defensively. The pitch framing thing is one aspect, but beyond that, it's nice to have an additional tool in your toolbox that is different than the other tools. There are games where having a defensive specialist might be handy. That raises ta player's value above the statistical correlations upon which we all lean.

schalaky
02-17-2013, 02:31 PM
Butera has awesome hair. Maybe that's all it takes to warrant a cather's roster spot?

TheLeviathan
02-17-2013, 04:12 PM
I'll also say this - Butera's defense is valuable. It might be especially valuable for a team that has two starting catchers that can hit but struggle defensively. The pitch framing thing is one aspect, but beyond that, it's nice to have an additional tool in your toolbox that is different than the other tools. There are games where having a defensive specialist might be handy. That raises ta player's value above the statistical correlations upon which we all lean.

I don't buy this argument. If Carlos Gomez was still here and playing a phenomenal CF then this argument makes sense. His defense makes up for the inadequate play of our corner OFs, but catching - not so much. It's a one man job.

Hell, petition MLB to let Butera catch and Mauer hit for him for 9 innings and we kill two birds with one stone! But in order for his defense to play, he has to hit and that hurts the team.

The Wise One
02-17-2013, 04:17 PM
I'm sorry, but this is insanity. If you bring your car into the mechanic and he returns it to you with three wheels, no brakes, and a broken windshield....do you avoid critiquing his performance because you're not a mechanic?

Insanity? The guy said I didn't have a sense of humor. I said what I thought would be funny. I leave you to guess what I think is insane and inane.

Where, in my post, where did I denigrate Butera the person? If you feel bad for Butera because of harsh critiques, perhaps you should suggest to him to stop playing a highly public game he's not very good at? At least then your efforts will be both rational and helpful for our favorite team.

Insanity? The guy said I didn't have a sense of humor. I said what I thought would be funny. Nothing more, nothing less. I will leave it up to you to guess what I think is insane and inane.

The Wise One
02-17-2013, 04:21 PM
I don't think anyone here is going to argue that Butera isn't a terrible hitter. He's historically bad.

That said, I'd still rather have him on the roster than Herrmann. Herrmann isn't ready. One could argue that Butera isn't either, but Herrmann has a chance to be ready if he continues his development, and I see no reason to risk that development, even if it means he ends up as a backup catcher.

I'll also say this - Butera's defense is valuable. It might be especially valuable for a team that has two starting catchers that can hit but struggle defensively. The pitch framing thing is one aspect, but beyond that, it's nice to have an additional tool in your toolbox that is different than the other tools. There are games where having a defensive specialist might be handy. That raises ta player's value above the statistical correlations upon which we all lean.

Glass half full optimism says in 48 AB under the watchful eye of Bruno Butera did well at the plate last year. Statistics whizs will have an argument with you, but one never knows.

TheLeviathan
02-17-2013, 04:21 PM
Insanity? The guy said I didn't have a sense of humor. I said what I thought would be funny. Nothing more, nothing less. I will leave it up to you to guess what I think is insane and inane.

Then it appears that "the guy's" assessment was right.

raykinsella
02-17-2013, 05:20 PM
What a novel idea it would be to carry a third catcher that could play other positions and hit above .186.

Pius Jefferson
02-17-2013, 10:27 PM
Good lord, bastardizing people's names as a way to ridicule them. We did that in grade school. We also grew out of it


Welcome to the internet. The grade school lunch room only wishes it could be so immature.

glunn
02-17-2013, 11:19 PM
Insanity? The guy said I didn't have a sense of humor. I said what I thought would be funny. Nothing more, nothing less. I will leave it up to you to guess what I think is insane and inane.

Please my brothers. You both have valid perspectives about Butera. Let's focus on baseball, not each other.

old nurse
02-17-2013, 11:45 PM
I don't buy this argument. If Carlos Gomez was still here and playing a phenomenal CF then this argument makes sense. His defense makes up for the inadequate play of our corner OFs, but catching - not so much. It's a one man job.

Hell, petition MLB to let Butera catch and Mauer hit for him for 9 innings and we kill two birds with one stone! But in order for his defense to play, he has to hit and that hurts the team.
There is just a little difference between being the starting centerfielder and third string catcher

Nick Nelson
02-18-2013, 01:05 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role. He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time. The problem with using anybody with any kind of upside in that role is that he'll have a hard time ever reaching that upside while getting a handful of at-bats per week. Any player with legitimate ability might object to the unglamorous nature of the role but Butera knows it's a miracle he has a major-league job so he keeps happily plugging away and working his ass off.

Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom). But it's not the most indefensible thing I've ever seen. I'm really tired of seeing it constantly regurgitated as some proof positive that everyone running the Twins is an idiot. At the end of the day Butera has very little impact on the success of this team one way or another.

Seth Stohs
02-18-2013, 07:08 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role. He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time. The problem with using anybody with any kind of upside in that role is that he'll have a hard time ever reaching that upside while getting a handful of at-bats per week. Any player with legitimate ability might object to the unglamorous nature of the role but Butera knows it's a miracle he has a major-league job so he keeps happily plugging away and working his ass off.

Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom). But it's not the most indefensible thing I've ever seen. I'm really tired of seeing it constantly regurgitated as some proof positive that everyone running the Twins is an idiot. At the end of the day Butera has very little impact on the success of this team one way or another.

Perfectly stated!

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 08:12 AM
There is just a little difference between being the starting centerfielder and third string catcher

Um...that was the point. Is this some kind of bit?

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 08:17 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role.

Right, so he's getting his spot regardless of how he plays. Isn't that precisely the point of the scholarship quote?


He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time.

This is such a poor argument. If having a quality player in the 25th roster spot isn't important - why do we have it? Why does every other team find a functional use for it? Why is the 24th spot more valuable? Why don't we line our bench with Butera, Tony Batista, the corpse for Rondell White, and a few others? It is so annoying to hear that it's ok to have bad players on the bench. It's not ok and it shouldn't be ok.



Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom).

This is precisely why it's a scholarship issue. If they want a third catcher so bad, sign Inge. He provides versatility, the same "gamer" qualities of Butera, and some offensive ability. The Twins are content and happy with Butera. That's the problem - they overlook his complete inability to be a functional baseball player because they are citing the same intangibles you are.

one_eyed_jack
02-18-2013, 09:04 AM
I want Butera gone because I'm tired to the incessant griping about him. You'd think his lack of production in 122 PA's last year was the reason for another awful season. I'm not defending his value as a player, but with all of the other problems on this team, I just can't get that worked up about a guy who plays so infrequently.

For what it's worth, I get the sense that he is pretty well liked and respected by coaches and teammates. And though he can't hit, he seems like a fairly sharp guy who has a good understanding of the game. It wouldn't surprise me to see him go the coaching/managerial route one day and do well at it.

Hmmmm......, maybe we need to keep him in the organization just in case that happens. Picture a scenario a dozen years from now where a Son of Sal managed Tigers or White Sox team was coming in here and beating the snot out of the Twins on a regular basis? That would not be good for the collective sanity of the Twins fan base.

Brock Beauchamp
02-18-2013, 09:14 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role. He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time. The problem with using anybody with any kind of upside in that role is that he'll have a hard time ever reaching that upside while getting a handful of at-bats per week. Any player with legitimate ability might object to the unglamorous nature of the role but Butera knows it's a miracle he has a major-league job so he keeps happily plugging away and working his ass off.

Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom). But it's not the most indefensible thing I've ever seen. I'm really tired of seeing it constantly regurgitated as some proof positive that everyone running the Twins is an idiot. At the end of the day Butera has very little impact on the success of this team one way or another.

I come down hard on Butera but I also can't really argue with this post. Butera's ability to hurt the team with his anemic offense is extremely limited. I'd rather see the team carry two catchers than trot Butera out there once a week but given the state of the team, it's way down my list of priorities.

I view the retention of Butera as something that is indicative of how this franchise is run and that's where my problem really lays... Not so much with Butera himself, though I often rage at the guy whenever I see that horrible, awful stat line. If the rest of the team was headed in the right direction (they picked up a decent starter, made ANY attempt to shore up the middle infield), I wouldn't care about Butera but in a world where the key free agent pickup was Correia, it just compounds the problem with the Minnesota roster in my eyes.

USAFChief
02-18-2013, 10:08 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role. He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time. The problem with using anybody with any kind of upside in that role is that he'll have a hard time ever reaching that upside while getting a handful of at-bats per week. Any player with legitimate ability might object to the unglamorous nature of the role but Butera knows it's a miracle he has a major-league job so he keeps happily plugging away and working his ass off.

Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom). But it's not the most indefensible thing I've ever seen. I'm really tired of seeing it constantly regurgitated as some proof positive that everyone running the Twins is an idiot. At the end of the day Butera has very little impact on the success of this team one way or another.Carrying Butera amounts to playing a major league season with a 24-man roster, with 12 or 13 of those spots already given to pitchers. Your post says as much. Why do the Twins do that to themselves? And why do people continually try to justify it? It's baffling. It costs the team games, both in terms of what Butera can't do when he IS in the lineup, and in terms of what they don't have available to them when Butera is what Gardy sees when he looks down the bench for a getaway day lineup or a short term injury replacement. Carrying Butera hurts the Twins. It's as simple as that, and it's self inflicted injury. THAT'S why people object to Drew Butera.

birdwatcher
02-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Carrying Butera amounts to playing a major league season with a 24-man roster, with 12 or 13 of those spots already given to pitchers. Your post says as much. Why do the Twins do that to themselves? And why do people continually try to justify it? It's baffling. It costs the team games, both in terms of what Butera can't do when he IS in the lineup, and in terms of what they don't have available to them when Butera is what Gardy sees when he looks down the bench for a getaway day lineup or a short term injury replacement. Carrying Butera hurts the Twins. It's as simple as that, and it's self inflicted injury. THAT'S why people object to Drew Butera.

I see the merit in both Nick's and Chief's arguments, although I really wonder about how many games the Butera "injury" costs us. This is at best a .500 team right now, and I can't get worked up about Drew Butera. Besides, I find him to be a likeable chap, especially in his golf duds.

What works me up a bit is why our beat writers don't ask the hard questions. The Twins must disagree with you guys. Why don't we have a solid explanation about why they think Butera offers enough to offset his obvious offensive deficiencies?

Nick Nelson
02-18-2013, 11:47 AM
Right, so he's getting his spot regardless of how he plays. Isn't that precisely the point of the scholarship quote?
Wrong. If he stopped playing good defense and working well with pitchers, he wouldn't have a job. Your problem is that you equate "how he plays" strictly with offensive production, and clearly the Twins don't see it that way. They're looking for different things out of a third catcher. You can disagree with their evaluation in that sense but it doesn't mean he has a "scholarship."


This is such a poor argument. If having a quality player in the 25th roster spot isn't important - why do we have it? Why does every other team find a functional use for it? Why is the 24th spot more valuable? Why don't we line our bench with Butera, Tony Batista, the corpse for Rondell White, and a few others? It is so annoying to hear that it's ok to have bad players on the bench. It's not ok and it shouldn't be ok.
Plenty of teams have a bad hitter occupying the last spot on their bench. Plenty of teams have managed to succeed despite this relatively minor hindrance. Hell, the Twins won 94 games and the division in 2010 with Butera soaking up 150 plate appearances.


It costs the team games, both in terms of what Butera can't do when he IS in the lineup, and in terms of what they don't have available to them when Butera is what Gardy sees when he looks down the bench for a getaway day lineup or a short term injury replacement.
Theoretically this is true but quite honestly I can't remember one instance last year where I said, "Man, if the Twins had a different crappy, end-of-the-bench player available instead of Butera they'd be way better off!" The decision to carry 13 pitchers bears as much responsibility for the Twins' bench inflexibility as the decision to carry Butera.

I haven't even heard anyone suggest a credible replacement for Butera on the roster. Brandon Inge? Come on. Chris Herrmann? The same guy who hasn't played above Double-A in the minors and hasn't hit especially well there? Quite honestly this has to come to seem like complaining for the sake of complaining. I'm not really trying to defend Butera because I think he's pretty lousy and would prefer if he weren't on the roster, but it simply doesn't matter enough to justify the constant whining and the attempts to equate it to the organization's high-level problems.

Boom Boom
02-18-2013, 11:48 AM
Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom).

I don't really see the wisdom in carrying the third catcher. Doumit's a nice offensive player but he doesn't need to be in the lineup every day. If the Twins could find a platoon partner for Doumit, and make it a point to never have both Doumit and Mauer in the lineup when one of them is the DH, the third catcher becomes a non-issue.

Dilligaf69
02-18-2013, 11:56 AM
The scholarships quote is not applicable in this situation. In the mind of Twins coaches, he is a good fit for the third catcher role. He plays excellent defense, he has a good rapport with the pitchers and nothing is hurt by his sporadic playing time. The problem with using anybody with any kind of upside in that role is that he'll have a hard time ever reaching that upside while getting a handful of at-bats per week. Any player with legitimate ability might object to the unglamorous nature of the role but Butera knows it's a miracle he has a major-league job so he keeps happily plugging away and working his ass off.

Personally I wouldn't give a roster spot to a guy with as little offensive ability as Butera and I probably wouldn't even carry a third catcher (though with Mauer and Doumit leading the depth chart I can see the wisdom). But it's not the most indefensible thing I've ever seen. I'm really tired of seeing it constantly regurgitated as some proof positive that everyone running the Twins is an idiot. At the end of the day Butera has very little impact on the success of this team one way or another.


Great post!

jorgenswest
02-18-2013, 12:26 PM
How can the Twins best use the 25th roster spot?

The argument for a pinch hitter.

The Twins will likely have three very poor bats in the line up in many games. Two of Florimon, Escobar and Dozier could be in the game. Mastroianni had large splits in the minors .831/.687 L/R OPS. It would be beneficial to have a left handed bat on the bench.

The argument for the third catcher.

Doumit is an awful defensive catcher. A DH/PH/emergency catcher role may fit his skills better. The lack of interest in him last winter might indicate there are several teams that would not give him a regular role as a catcher. The Twins need a real catcher backing up Mauer.

So if you believe that the Twins need a back up catcher, who brings more value? Butera or Herrmann?

Butera has more experience and is at least average defensively. He will never be used as a pinch hitter. Herrmann has more offensive skills and bats left handed. He is likely a better hitter against right handed pitching than Carroll, Escobar, Florimon, Dozier or Mastroianni. He would be useful as a pinch hitting option.

Herrmann may do the better job of fitting both needs but possibly neither well enough. Based on catching only, Butera is the better option. If a bat on the bench is the need, there would be better options.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 05:51 PM
Your problem is that you equate "how he plays" strictly with offensive production,

Wrong. I have repeatedly stated that his problems are on a critical component of the game (offense) never that he was a completely inept player at all phases. That is just a blatant mischaracterization.

Butera's defense does not "complement" any other catcher. This isn't the outfield where the CF can complement a corner OF with bad range. Or a SS that complements a 3B with poor range to his left. When he plays - his historically awful offensive abilities hurts the team.


Hell, the Twins won 94 games and the division in 2010 with Butera soaking up 150 plate appearances.

And the 2006 Twins gave nearly 400 at bats to Rondell White and still had a strong team...what's your point? The problem with your arguments is that if you even take them and apply them to anyone but Butera they look ridiculous. (They look ridiculous with Butera, but somehow you're missing that)

Butera is a symptom of the larger problems. The Twins are too focused on bizarre loyalties rather than actual talent. That, and this thread started talking about third catcher options. Seems odd for you to come in here complaining that people are complaining about Butera. Did you expect a thread about the "third catcher" was somehow not going to be a discussion of Butera?

He's a bad player, he shouldn't be on the roster, and the Twins need to stop handing him a spot.

Nick Nelson
02-18-2013, 06:25 PM
Butera's defense does not "complement" any other catcher. This isn't the outfield where the CF can complement a corner OF with bad range. Or a SS that complements a 3B with poor range to his left. When he plays - his historically awful offensive abilities hurts the team.
Except that he does complement certain pitchers on the staff, or at least the Twins and those pitchers believe that. Catcher is an awfully important defensive position that interacts with several others. Not sure why you're downplaying that with some convoluted point about range.


Did you expect a thread about the "third catcher" was somehow not going to be a discussion of Butera?

He's a bad player, he shouldn't be on the roster, and the Twins need to stop handing him a spot.
I'm fine with discussion of Butera. I'm just tired of seeing him repeatedly associated with the scholarships quote. It doesn't apply. Like it or not, the Twins believe he's earned the chance to be on the roster by doing what is expected of him.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 06:31 PM
Except that he does complement certain pitchers on the staff, or at least the Twins and those pitchers believe that. Catcher is an awfully important defensive position that interacts with several others. Not sure why you're downplaying that with some convoluted point about range.

Because people, including you, say it's wise to keep Butera because he complements Mauer and Doumit's abilities. That isn't "complementing" them. It's a completely irrelevant point that sounds good, but means nothing. Doumit's offense doesn't help Butera's and vice-versa with defense. The only thing it allows you to do is pick which absent skillset you want to play that day. I don't call that an advantage.


I'm fine with discussion of Butera. I'm just tired of seeing him repeatedly associated with the scholarships quote. It doesn't apply. Like it or not, the Twins believe he's earned the chance to be on the roster by doing what is expected of him.

The very fact that they are insistent upon having a third catcher and brought in zero alternatives to compete with him, makes that quote perfectly reasonable to use here.

Thrylos
02-18-2013, 06:41 PM
Carrying Butera amounts to playing a major league season with a 24-man roster, with 12 or 13 of those spots already given to pitchers. Your post says as much. Why do the Twins do that to themselves? And why do people continually try to justify it? It's baffling. It costs the team games, both in terms of what Butera can't do when he IS in the lineup, and in terms of what they don't have available to them when Butera is what Gardy sees when he looks down the bench for a getaway day lineup or a short term injury replacement. Carrying Butera hurts the Twins. It's as simple as that, and it's self inflicted injury. THAT'S why people object to Drew Butera.

^^^^^ This, which is also accentuated by the fact that the Twins regularly have an one-person plus Butera bench because they have so many injured guys day to day to week before they do anyting.

Riverbrian
02-18-2013, 07:49 PM
To me this is real simple. Butera is simply no longer necessary.

In my opinion... We don't need a 3rd catcher... Period... If I could take one thing out of Gardy's head and toss it away... It would be his irrational fear of having to lose the DH spot for a game in the case of injury.

However... Since Gardy has this fear... The Twins need a 3rd catcher.

In my opinion... for that 3rd catcher role(that only the Twins need)... Butera is no longer necessary and here is why... We have Jeff Clement to play that role.

Clement is most likely going nowhere so we don't have to worry about killing his development with no playing time but the thing that Clement has over Butera is that Clement can pinch hit for Florimon in the ninth when the team is down by a run because he has the ability to reach the seats. He can also fill in at 1B so that's an extra bonus. This is better economizing of the 25th spot on the roster.

Clement has been a terrible hitter but he has been better than Drew. .648 Career OPS to Drew's .497.

No doubt that Drew is the better defensive catcher and defense at the catcher position is very important in my mind.

But... Defensive value is only valuable if he plays... He won't play enough for his defensive skill to truly help the team.

That emergency catcher spot should go to someone who can park one and also strap on the pads in a pinch and only in a pinch. Defensive skill would be down on the list of priorities for that role in my opinion.

snepp
02-18-2013, 08:06 PM
I don't think Clement can be considered a catcher anymore, can he?

Riverbrian
02-18-2013, 08:23 PM
I don't think Clement can be considered a catcher anymore, can he?

I honestly don't know... But... The role is emergency catcher. If Doumit is DH and Mauer tweaks a hamstring. The third catcher can strap it on and finish the game. He wouldn't have too catch much or at all.

Only the Twins seem to need this 3rd catcher... Might as well find someone who can pinch hit for Florimon when needed.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 08:39 PM
Only the Twins seem to need this 3rd catcher... Might as well find someone who can pinch hit for Florimon when needed.

Exactly.

stringer bell
02-18-2013, 08:48 PM
The optimum would be to have two versatile catchers and an emergency third catcher, who is also versatile. The Twins don't have that and they don't have lefty-righty balance either (Doumit is a much stronger LH hitter). Mauer is a franchise player and as long as he is a catcher, everything needs to be built around him. Doumit is a good hitter for a catcher and acceptable as a DH and he can spell someone in the outfield. His defense doesn't have many admirers. He would be best paired with a gold-glove type righthanded hitter. Butera doesn't hit well enough to be a major leaguer. There are equally proficient defenders to be had, who would have a far better chance to do offensive damage than Drew Butera.

Seth Stohs
02-18-2013, 09:46 PM
I think people need to stop calling Butera the "3rd catcher" because in reality, on most every single day, he is the backup catcher. Mauer is the catcher. Doumit is the DH. Or those two switch. Butera is the backup catcher. Every team has a backup catcher. Most team's backup catchers are defensive-minded players. It's really that simple. The last three World Series champion backup catchers were Hector Sanchez, Gerald Laird and Eli Whiteside, none of which can hit much and certainly don't bring as much to their teams defensively as Butera does.

I really like Chris Herrmann, and even I'm not shouting for him to replace Butera at this point. As Nick has said way better than I ever could, it's completely a mute point. The Twins brass deems Butera worthy of essentially a league-minimum contract (close enough that it's not worth worrying about) because of his defense, his leadership, what he provides on the bench and to the pitchers. And, when he gets five at bats a week, it's just not a concern. If he gets 5 plate appearances, he'll get on once. If Mauer gets five plate appearances, he'll get on base twice.

It's in the same category as complaining about Correia getting a 2-year contract. It's fun to whine about it for awhile, but it's done. It's not being reversed. Doesn't it get old continuing to talk/write about the same thing.

It's really such a non-issue.

Seth Stohs
02-18-2013, 09:47 PM
Also, I think that the plan for 2014 (or even later in 2013) would be for Chris Herrmann to be deemed ready, and then you have your backup catcher who can also play multiple positions. The Twins will then have three versatile catchers.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 10:09 PM
The last three World Series champion backup catchers were Hector Sanchez, Gerald Laird and Eli Whiteside, none of which can hit much

Shall we compare their OPS to Butera's? You know how this conversation would die more easily? If some didn't try to argue that Butera is worth a roster spot. If no one is arguing the contrary, all you'll get is a few complaints, not a discussion.

Seth Stohs
02-18-2013, 10:45 PM
Shall we compare their OPS to Butera's? You know how this conversation would die more easily? If some didn't try to argue that Butera is worth a roster spot. If no one is arguing the contrary, all you'll get is a few complaints, not a discussion.

No, I looked at their OPSs, and they were 100 points higher than Butera, but as Nick and I have said, there is so much more to the role of backup catcher than offense. In fact, I think most teams and most GMs would argue that it ranks well down the list of things they are looking for in a backup catcher.

TheLeviathan
02-18-2013, 10:50 PM
No, I looked at their OPSs, and they were 100 points higher than Butera, but as Nick and I have said, there is so much more to the role of backup catcher than offense. In fact, I think most teams and most GMs would argue that it ranks well down the list of things they are looking for in a backup catcher.

As your examples point out, you can have both. There are plenty of catchers that provide good defense that can manage more than a .500 OPS. Historically, few players have been given this many at-bats while being this inept offensively. The Twins have straddled themselves with this issue, let's stop pretending otherwise. No matter how great he is defensively, it's not helping the ballclub when he's this bad as a hitter.

If he's this good in the clubhouse, sign him to be the bullpen catcher then. Or put him in AAA to work with young pitchers. But he's not a worthwhile MLB player.

Seth Stohs
02-18-2013, 10:56 PM
As your examples point out, you can have both. There are plenty of catchers that provide good defense that can manage more than a .500 OPS. Historically, few players have been given this many at-bats while being this inept offensively. The Twins have straddled themselves with this issue, let's stop pretending otherwise. No matter how great he is defensively, it's not helping the ballclub when he's this bad as a hitter.

If he's this good in the clubhouse, sign him to be the bullpen catcher then. Or put him in AAA to work with young pitchers. But he's not a worthwhile MLB player.

K........

Nick Nelson
02-19-2013, 09:42 AM
Because people, including you, say it's wise to keep Butera because he complements Mauer and Doumit's abilities.
This quote really gets to the core the issue. I haven't said it's "wise" to keep Butera. I don't really see anybody on this thread saying that (a few have said they'd prefer having him on the roster to Herrmann, which makes plenty of sense strictly from a developmental standpoint). All I'm saying is that it's not as mind-numbingly indefensible as you and some others continually make it out to be. Quit exaggerating and fabricating opposing views in order to vindicate your tirades. I don't think anyone is in disagreement with your fundamental point, just your extremeness.


Butera doesn't hit well enough to be a major leaguer. There are equally proficient defenders to be had, who would have a far better chance to do offensive damage than Drew Butera.
People say this a lot like it's a given, but I wonder if it's true. The Twins tried out a couple inferior options when Mauer was down in 2011 (remember Steve Holm and Rene Rivera? yuck) and last year I didn't really see anyone clamoring for Towles as a significant upgrade. Now we're hearing Jeff Clement mentioned -- come on, the dude isn't even a catcher. You want a player in this role who can come in during a blowout to save Mauer's knees, play good defense and keep the game moving.

Catcher defense is difficult to quantify but clearly the Twins have a bunch of people on their staff who think he does enough there to provide value. I tend to disagree but I don't have to squint to hard to see what they're thinking. If Butera works well with pitchers, makes them more comfortable, controls the running game and is a good teammate, I can see why you'd take that in his role over the extra handful of hits that another incrementally better but still terrible hitter might provide.


Only the Twins seem to need this 3rd catcher... Might as well find someone who can pinch hit for Florimon when needed.
That seems like a weird requirement. You want your third-string player at the worst offensive position on the field to be a pinch-hitter candidate? How many backup catchers are used as pinch-hitters around the league?

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 09:51 AM
I think people need to stop calling Butera the "3rd catcher" because in reality, on most every single day, he is the backup catcher. Mauer is the catcher. Doumit is the DH. Or those two switch. Butera is the backup catcher. Every team has a backup catcher. Most team's backup catchers are defensive-minded players. It's really that simple. The last three World Series champion backup catchers were Hector Sanchez, Gerald Laird and Eli Whiteside, none of which can hit much and certainly don't bring as much to their teams defensively as Butera does.

I really like Chris Herrmann, and even I'm not shouting for him to replace Butera at this point. As Nick has said way better than I ever could, it's completely a mute point. The Twins brass deems Butera worthy of essentially a league-minimum contract (close enough that it's not worth worrying about) because of his defense, his leadership, what he provides on the bench and to the pitchers. And, when he gets five at bats a week, it's just not a concern. If he gets 5 plate appearances, he'll get on once. If Mauer gets five plate appearances, he'll get on base twice.

It's in the same category as complaining about Correia getting a 2-year contract. It's fun to whine about it for awhile, but it's done. It's not being reversed. Doesn't it get old continuing to talk/write about the same thing.

It's really such a non-issue.

1. People call Butera the 3rd catcher because that's what he is. If Butera is on the 25 man roster, there are 3 catchers, and he's the least desirable to have behind the plate, and will get the fewest opportunities behind the plate. Ergo, he's the 3rd catcher. When Mauer is behind the plate and Doumit is DH'ing, there is no reason Doumit can't also be the backup catcher, at the same time, and vice versa. There is no need to have a backup to the backup, when roster spots are limited and you're carrying 12 or 13 pitchers. 2. "Every team has a backup catcher." Yes, they do. How many will carry TWO backup catchers in 2013? 3. "The last three World Series champion backup catchers were Hector Sanchez, Gerald Laird and Eli Whiteside..." Who was the 3rd catcher on those teams? 4. "The Twins brass deems Butera worthy of essentially a league-minimum contract (close enough that it's not worth worrying about) because of his defense, his leadership, what he provides on the bench and to the pitchers..." How can his defense be worthy when, as you say, he's not going to play much? What, exactly, does he "provide to the bench?" to "the pitchers?" 5. "And, when he gets five at bats a week, it's just not a concern. If he gets 5 plate appearances, he'll get on once. If Mauer gets five plate appearances, he'll get on base twice" This is so...ill conceived...an argument it's not worth a response, but here goes anyway: your argument amounts to "he's so valuable because his defense is so fantastic, but we don't need to worry about his historically poor offense because he'll never play." Face it...he's a wasted roster spot. If, for some reason the Twins need to carry 3 catchers, the 3rd catcher needs to provide more than Butera does, because in today's game, bench spots are too valuable to waste on a guy who cannot be used anywhere except catcher. He costs the Twins games when is IS in the lineup, and he costs the Twins games when he ISN'T in the lineup. This is so simple, it's baffling that people still try to justify it. While this isn't the Twins primary roster problem--lack of talent is--that doesn't mean it's not a problem, or not worth discussing. Getting better pitchers isn't simple. This is. Don't carry 3 catchers. Problem solved.

Boom Boom
02-19-2013, 09:55 AM
A difficulty with building your franchise around a superstar catcher is that the drop-off to the backup catcher is going to be magnified. The difference beetween Mauer and Butera is probably greater than the difference between the starting and backup catcher on any other team. Also your superstar is going to get his catchers' rest so the backup is going to see more playing time than if Mauer was, say, a left fielder.

As for Hermann, I think he has a better chance to replace Doumit than Butera.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 09:57 AM
This quote really gets to the core the issue. I haven't said it's "wise" to keep Butera. I don't really see anybody on this thread saying that (a few have said they'd prefer having him on the roster to Herrmann, which makes plenty of sense strictly from a developmental standpoint). All I'm saying is that it's not as mind-numbingly indefensible as you and some others continually make it out to be. Quit exaggerating and fabricating opposing views in order to vindicate your tirades. I don't think anyone is in disagreement with your fundamental point, just your extremeness.

What tirade and what extremeness? I just looked over the thread, I'm not exaggerating or fabricating anything. I'm not on a tirade. I'm not being extreme. Pretty unfounded accusations there, yeesh.

Keep historically bad hitters on your team is indefensible. That's a pretty simple point, but feel free to mischaracterize it however you'd like. That appears to be your go-to on this topic.

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 09:59 AM
A difficulty with building your franchise around a superstar catcher is that the drop-off to the backup catcher is going to be magnified. The difference beetween Mauer and Butera is probably greater than the difference between the starting and backup catcher on any other team. Also your superstar is going to get his catchers' rest so the backup is going to see more playing time than if Mauer was, say, a left fielder.

As for Hermann, I think he has a better chance to replace Doumit than Butera.Butera is not the backup catcher.

Boom Boom
02-19-2013, 10:03 AM
Butera is not the backup catcher.

Until he's not on the 25-man roster, he may not be THE backup catcher, but he is A backup catcher.

I thought the Doumit signing made a lot of sense at the time, but now I feel like it's not as great of a fit as I thought. The problem Gardy had before was keeping Mauer in the lineup at DH when Butera or Redmond caught. Since Doumit's the default DH, Gardy still has the same problem of using a catcher at DH but it's compounded by the wasted roster spot.

zenser
02-19-2013, 10:18 AM
The first part of spring training will be crutical. Mauer will be with Team USA and Butera will be the starting catcher for Team Italy. Butera will be getting probably more ABs there than he would in the spring training games with the Twins so that opens up Herrmann to get plenty of ABs to start the spring season. Hopefully, Herrmann takes advantage.

Personally, I would prefer they only carry Mauer and Doumit to start the season and using the roster spot for a pinch hitter or bullpen arm. Lord knows we will need both. If it so happens that we would lose a DH for a game and have to have a pitcher bat once, is there any difference to having Butera bat? Then after the game, you could call up Butera. But in that scenario, Butera and Herrmann would be splitting ABs in AAA and if the FO has plans for Herrmann going forward, I could live with Herrmann being in AAA and Butera taking up a roster spot with the big club.

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:21 AM
Until he's not on the 25-man roster, he may not be THE backup catcher, but he is A backup catcher.

I thought the Doumit signing made a lot of sense at the time, but now I feel like it's not as great of a fit as I thought. The problem Gardy had before was keeping Mauer in the lineup at DH when Butera or Redmond caught. Since Doumit's the default DH, Gardy still has the same problem of using a catcher at DH but it's compounded by the wasted roster spot.

There should be zero hesitation to use a catcher at the DH spot. ZERO. Worst case scenario, you lose the DH for nine innings if/when your starting catcher gets injured.

I just can't wrap my head around why this is a problem. If you pinch-hit for a catcher or pinch-hit using a catcher, that guy is out of the game for good which can put you in a bind if you run out of catchers. But if you DH a catcher, all you risk is losing the DH for part of a game.

It should be a non-issue.

FrodaddyG
02-19-2013, 10:26 AM
There should be zero hesitation to use a catcher at the DH spot. ZERO. Worst case scenario, you lose the DH for nine innings if/when your starting catcher gets injured.

I just can't wrap my head around why this is a problem. If you pinch-hit for a catcher or pinch-hit using a catcher, that guy is out of the game for good which can put you in a bind if you run out of catchers. But if you DH a catcher, all you risk is losing the DH for part of a game.

It should be a non-issue.
But what if you had to have a pitcher hit for an entire game! You can't take the chance of throwing away ABs to a terrible hitter, so you need Drew... Butera? Wait a minute...

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 10:29 AM
It should be a non-issue.

It should all be a non-issue. Historically bad hitters shouldn't be on your roster. But apparently that's an "extreme" position.

Boom Boom
02-19-2013, 10:31 AM
There should be zero hesitation to use a catcher at the DH spot. ZERO. Worst case scenario, you lose the DH for nine innings if/when your starting catcher gets injured.

I just can't wrap my head around why this is a problem. If you pinch-hit for a catcher or pinch-hit using a catcher, that guy is out of the game for good which can put you in a bind if you run out of catchers. But if you DH a catcher, all you risk is losing the DH for part of a game.

It should be a non-issue.

I get that it should be a non-issue, but for our Manager of the Year it's a big issue, worthy of dedicating a 25-man spot for an unlikely contingency scenario. I'm trying to figure out a way to take the security blanket away from Gardy.

For the record, I'm pretty sure Gardy's not so much worried about losing the DH as he is about having a pitcher hurt himself trying to bat or run the bases.

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:35 AM
I get that it should be a non-issue, but for our Manager of the Year it's a big issue, worthy of dedicating a 25-man spot for an unlikely contingency scenario. I'm trying to figure out a way to take the security blanket away from Gardy.

For the record, I'm pretty sure Gardy's not so much worried about losing the DH as he is about having a pitcher hurt himself trying to bat or run the bases.

Which is really silly. The NL manages to play most of its games without a reliever seeing an AB and they do it with a 25 man roster. Chances are, your catcher won't be hurt in the first inning and you'll only have to cover a couple of pitcher ABs with your bench.

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 10:42 AM
I get that it should be a non-issue, but for our Manager of the Year it's a big issue, worthy of dedicating a 25-man spot for an unlikely contingency scenario. I'm trying to figure out a way to take the security blanket away from Gardy.

For the record, I'm pretty sure Gardy's not so much worried about losing the DH as he is about having a pitcher hurt himself trying to bat or run the bases. Good point. Are we going to forfeit interleague games from here on out?

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:43 AM
Good point. Are we going to forfeit interleague games from here on out?

I heard the Twins invested heavily in cardboard stand-ups of movie actors and those are expected to receive the majority of pitcher ABs in 2013.

Boom Boom
02-19-2013, 10:44 AM
Good point. Are we going to forfeit interleague games from here on out?

Might as well forfeit some of the intraleague games while you're at it.

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 10:45 AM
I heard the Twins invested heavily in cardboard stand-ups of movie actors and those are expected to receive the majority of pitcher ABs in 2013. I can tell this is snark...you used "Twins" and "invested heavily" in the same post.

Brock Beauchamp
02-19-2013, 10:47 AM
I can tell this is snark...you used "Twins" and "invested heavily" in the same post.

Well, luckily for them Battleship tanked or they would have had to spend at least $75 more to get all those cardboard cutouts of Liam Neeson, who in early tests has now become the Twins' fifth most-feared hitter.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 10:48 AM
Well, luckily for them Battleship tanked or they would have had to spend at least $75 more to get all those cardboard cutouts of Liam Neeson, who in early tests has now become the Twins' fifth most-feared hitter.

Don't be modest.

USAFChief
02-19-2013, 10:48 AM
Might as well forfeit some of the intraleague games while you're at it. They're already doing that by keeping Butera on the roster.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 10:51 AM
They're already doing that by keeping Butera on the roster.

Just wait until that first Twins-patented approach to injury happens where they wait 2 weeks out of a 3 week injury to put someone on the DL and Butera gets heightened at-bats in that stretch. Haven't even touched on that one yet.

Nick Nelson
02-19-2013, 11:11 AM
What tirade and what extremeness? I just looked over the thread, I'm not exaggerating or fabricating anything. I'm not on a tirade. I'm not being extreme. Pretty unfounded accusations there, yeesh.

You? Never.

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

The presence of a third catcher itself is obnoxious but I’ve come to terms with it. It’s just something Gardy wants with two older, injury-prone players who often fill in at other positions atop the depth chart. I’d love it if people were attacking the idea of a third catcher more (like Chief's recent post) rather than misguidedly attacking Butera constantly. The idea that there’s some meaningful difference in what you’re going to get offensively from a .500 OPS guy and a .600 OPS guy over 150 plate appearances is silly. Neither is giving you any offense, and as far as the Twins are concerned that’s fine. Perfectly fair to call that out as an issue. Lame to continually talk about how horrible Butera is at his job. He does the job just fine -- the problem is that the job exists.

ericchri
02-19-2013, 11:20 AM
It's been covered already, but I'll just add my $0.02 because I have a hard time not piling on the Butera issue. Which isn't actually a Butera issue, per se, but as was noted previously is really a Gardenhire issue. His irrational fear of having to bat a pitcher for a few at-bats in a game when his second catcher is DH'ing and his starter gets hurt. It's not about whether Butera's 150 AB are a massive dropoff from somebody else who's only worthy of 150 AB, it's that he's getting those 150 AB because Gardenhire is afraid of a pitcher having to get 2-4 AB. In a season. In the era of interleague play.

We don't need a 3rd catcher. Repeat after me. We don't need a 3rd catcher. Even if we like to DH our backup catcher, we don't need a 3rd catcher.

I don't want Herrmann to start the season in the majors, he should spend some time at AAA. That is incidental to the fact that I don't want Butera to start the season in the majors either. Neither deserves to.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 11:37 AM
Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

It's NOT extreme. Historically he's one of the worst hitters IN BASEBALL HISTORY. It's not hyperbole, it's factual. He IS utterly useless at the plate. He IS woefully inept at a major portion of the game (hitting), and he IS an embarrassment to the franchise to continue to hand a historically awful hitter a roster spot. It's not extreme because it's factually accurate. He IS that bad of a hitter.


You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

No, the arguments are that he "complements" other catchers. Having two players who can't play at the same time who are deficient at a portion of the game is not a "complement" and if you carried that thinking to the rest of the roster would be incredibly foolish. Yet somehow that argument has been trotted out at least twice in this thread. You keep saying no one is defending Butera, and yet that is precisely what has happened repeatedly. From he doesn't get enough ABs to matter, to the 25th roster spot is irrelevant, to the idea he's a good "complement". I'm not fabricating any opposing positions, you just choose not to see your defense of Butera as a defense. (Which, as Chief's response indicates - more than I am interpreting it as such)

Attacking the idea of the third catcher is no different. You want to give that some kind of higher standing but the truth is, there is no greater purpose to that ridicule as long as Gardy is here. So quit pretending otherwise. (You're trying to minimize my position over it which is frustrating and completely baseless)

I've come to grips that we have to have a third catcher as long as Gardy is here - now I want one that isn't terrible offensively. I fail to see how your position has some grander status.

mike wants wins
02-19-2013, 11:39 AM
A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

stringer bell
02-19-2013, 11:45 AM
If the club feels they need a third catcher, aren't there better options available at the cost? Drew Butera is a woefully inept hitter. Isn't there someone out there who is a defene-first catcher, but can top .600 in OPS? That is my gripe with the Butera issue--the argument can be made that given the other two catchers and where they play, that the Twins are one of the few teams that can use a third receiver, but if so, can't they do better than Drew Butera?

snepp
02-19-2013, 11:47 AM
A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

The word of the month is, "marginal."

Replacing Butera would be a marginal improvement, Marcum and Saunders would be marginal upgrades, getting a middle infielder with a pulse would be marginal, another reliever with a prayer of striking someone out is marginal, attendance improvements would be marginal. So on and so forth.

TheLeviathan
02-19-2013, 11:48 AM
Apparently now the count is at least 5 people that have found the same arguments I have "fabricated" and "exaggerated". Strange, must be telepathy. Though, I guess maybe my argument is extreme in the sense that Butera is "extremely" bad at hitting.

But whatever, I'm done, Nick can rant away and mislabel me however he wants from here. Butera is a bad hitter, if we have to be strapped with a third catcher (an assumption imbedded in the original article) then I wish we had one that at least brought some versatility and non-historically-awful play to the table.

mike wants wins
02-19-2013, 11:51 AM
Thank you snepp....that's what I tried to type....

Riverbrian
02-19-2013, 01:45 PM
Now we're hearing Jeff Clement mentioned -- come on, the dude isn't even a catcher.

That seems like a weird requirement. You want your third-string player at the worst offensive position on the field to be a pinch-hitter candidate? How many backup catchers are used as pinch-hitters around the league?

For clarification... I'm not here to bury nor praise Drew Butera... I agree that we are attaching too much of the clubs woes on his shoulders. People do that... It is what it is...

My point is mainly centered on the need for a 3rd catcher. I understand why Gardenhire requires a 3rd catcher and I accept it... I just don't see the acuteness of that need personally.

Gardy requires it and if that's the case... I'm simply saying that I would take Clement over Butera. If those are my two choices and right now they are our two choices... 3 choices if you include Hermann.

I'd take Clement because he can reach the seats and that need for some pop off the bench is much more acute in my opinion. I have no problem with Florimon starting at SS if he brings the leather but there will come a time when they are down a run with the bases empty and two outs in the ninth and Florimon or Carroll or Mastro or Castro at the plate. The current Twins don't have a one swing late inning option at this time. It doesn't help much to pinch hit Castro for Florimon. Gardy and I disagree on this issue... We need pop on the bench more than a 3rd catcher. Its just my opinion.

Clement could be that guy... A .215 hitter who can park it. At the same time Clement can be catching insurance for the injury to Mauer while Doumit is DH'ing and vice versa.

As for... Is Clement a catcher anymore... I don't know... The Pirates had moved him to 1B but he was a catcher for Seattle for 5 years and a Catcher at USC before that. He has more experience at Catcher than anywhere else. He can certainly strap on the tools of ignorance and finish up a game if an injury or ejection happens to Mauer or Doumit. That's all I'm asking for... Can someone just strap the pads on and finish a game so we don't need to carry a third catcher.

Seth said that Butera is not a third catcher.... He is the backup... In concept that may be accurate... However... In 2012... Mauer caught 74 games... Doumit caught 59 games and Butera caught 41 games. None of the 3 catchers were call ups to fill in for an injured catcher in 2012. That makes Butera the third catcher... I really can't see it another way and the Twins are the only team that does it.

I hope everyone understands that i'm not downplaying the importance of defense at the Catcher position... I think it's extremely important... I believe that Catchers on average are not very good hitters kinda proves that most clubs value defense at catcher over offense. That's why everyone has weaker hitting backup catchers in my opinion. In the end... Most clubs don't carry 3 catchers because it just weakens the offensive options off the bench cuz they are defensive specialists for the most part.

I just believe that the third catcher shouldn't play that much so his defensive value to a club is questionable. That third catcher position would serve the club better if he can provide something we are missing... Like power off the bench or at least the ability to play another position.

He just has to strap the pads on in an emergency. I'm also not here to praise Clement nor bury him... I just choose him over Butera and I'd take a Shoppach or a Fox over Clement.

glunn
02-19-2013, 01:49 PM
You? Never.

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

The presence of a third catcher itself is obnoxious but I’ve come to terms with it. It’s just something Gardy wants with two older, injury-prone players who often fill in at other positions atop the depth chart. I’d love it if people were attacking the idea of a third catcher more (like Chief's recent post) rather than misguidedly attacking Butera constantly. The idea that there’s some meaningful difference in what you’re going to get offensively from a .500 OPS guy and a .600 OPS guy over 150 plate appearances is silly. Neither is giving you any offense, and as far as the Twins are concerned that’s fine. Perfectly fair to call that out as an issue. Lame to continually talk about how horrible Butera is at his job. He does the job just fine -- the problem is that the job exists.

I have received a complaint about this thread and am respectfully asking Leviathan and Nick to be a bit more respectful of each other's positions. You are both making good points and the discussion is worthwhile, but it would be even better if you could tone this down a notch in terms of the personal jibes. Arguably, neither of you has crossed the line yet, but you have both come close, and I am merely asking that you keep your passion while toning down the rhetoric just a little bit. I have great respect for both of you and hope that you are not offended by my request.

one_eyed_jack
02-19-2013, 05:47 PM
I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

Shane Wahl
02-19-2013, 06:05 PM
You know this is a false dichotomy between Herrmann and Butera. There are likely several better catching options available than Butera.

crarko
02-19-2013, 06:09 PM
I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

crarko
02-19-2013, 06:13 PM
You know this is a false dichotomy between Herrmann and Butera. There are likely several better catching options available than Butera.

I'm thinking Doumit, especially if Mauer catches a few more games this season.

My favorite hope for the bench is only carrying twelve pitchers, and call ups if a guy gets hurt, and not the eternal day to day status.

Willihammer
02-19-2013, 06:28 PM
I suspect the whole premise for having Butera on the roster is to carry *only* 12 pitchers, given Butera's history of being able to get one or two starters on track and hold them there during the season. Pavano in 2010 and Liriano in 2012 being the best (only?) examples.

I would be surprised if they have Butera and 13 pitchers.

glunn
02-19-2013, 08:59 PM
I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

Jack, you are an exemplary member, I value your opinion and agree that we don;t want this to be like Romper Room.

Please note that we are trying to maintain a balance here where we can foster passionate debate while minimizing personal attacks and feuding. My post was intended to be both proactive and gentle. As a moderator, I have been given powers to assess infractions, to delete posts and to ban people in order to maintain the balance, BUT I never want it to get to any of that. Leviathan and Nick are both great members and I think that we will all benefit if such great members thoughtfully consider the benefits from giving each other just a bit more respect.

glunn
02-19-2013, 09:00 PM
I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

You are correct my friend.

Physics Guy
02-19-2013, 11:41 PM
I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

Ya think? AAAA catcher thread redux...

twinsnorth49
02-20-2013, 12:09 AM
Funny thing is you're both right. We don't need a 3rd catcher, but if we're forced to accept one, we could do a whole lot better than Butera.

I'm exhausted on this one, it's like punching yourself in the face.

glunn
02-20-2013, 02:02 AM
Funny thing is your both right. We don't need a 3rd catcher, but if we're forced to accept one, we could do a whole lot better than Butera.

I'm exhausted on this one, it's like punching yourself in the face.

I think that you have done a great job summarizing this thread.