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edavis0308
02-12-2013, 04:19 PM
Oof. At least we have Mauer..

Offseason report card: Twins - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/32879/offseason-report-card-twins)


Outside of the Astros, the Twins may have the least talented 25-man roster in the major leagues ... and that's with two former MVPs on it.

Brock Beauchamp
02-12-2013, 04:22 PM
Ugh. I can't even think about this offseason without getting angry anymore.

There's. Just. No. Reason. For. This. To. Happen.

Marcum or Saunders and a middle(ing) infielder and we're all happy as clams. Instead, we want to spend April drinking ourselves to death.

TheLeviathan
02-12-2013, 04:24 PM
So yeah, it's not just some of us that are pretty down about this squad.

edavis0308
02-12-2013, 04:28 PM
I don't get his dislike for Parm (offense wise), but I guess he needs to show more at the major league level. Calling Morneau a platoon player is a bit over the top too. Id like to see him play healthy and not rely on the past few years of his post concussion shell of his former self.

Winston Smith
02-12-2013, 04:28 PM
But but Terry said........

snepp
02-12-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't get his dislike for Parm (offense wise), but I guess he needs to show more at the major league level. Calling Morneau a platoon player is a bit over the top too.

Those two things stood out to me as well. He crapped on Parmalee's offense while offering no justification. The Morneau remark I can understand (a bit), an outsider looking at the splits wouldn't necessarily see his dramatic improvement over the course of the season against lefties.

rickyriolo
02-12-2013, 04:38 PM
i think Mr. Schoenfield pretty much hit the nail on the head with his overall grade of "D" for our twinkies

Oxtung
02-12-2013, 04:44 PM
Those two things stood out to me as well. He crapped on Parmalee's offense while offering no justification. The Morneau remark I can understand (a bit), an outsider looking at the splits wouldn't necessarily see his dramatic improvement over the course of the season against lefties.


Is there anywhere to track his monthly averages against lefties? I couldn't figure out a way to do it on either FG's or BR.

ThePuck
02-12-2013, 04:49 PM
'Remember ... the Twins' pitching was bad a year ago with Span and Revere out there regularly. I shudder to think what could happen this year.'

jokin
02-12-2013, 04:51 PM
Oof. At least we have Mauer..

Offseason report card: Twins - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/32879/offseason-report-card-twins)

Schoenfeld assigned the letter grade of "D" for the Twins offseason activity- when so much more could have been done with just the hint of an organizational pulse showing signs of life- this is simply unacceptable. In point of fact, you generally cannot transfer a "D" grade on a course for credit when transferring to another university- so it in reality represents a FAIL on the part of an organization so recently injected with a beautiful, revenue-stream paying ball-park, and a club still replete with 2 former MVPs still near the prime of their careers.

jokin
02-12-2013, 04:59 PM
This "depressing" quote was widely known and teeth-clenchingly accepted by Twins fans:


Aside from those trades, it was basically a bunch of depressing moves like hoping on rehab guys such as Pelfrey, who wasn't that good when healthy, and Harden, who is never healthy anyway. And as it was pointed out to me on Twitter, they gave Pelfrey, coming off Tommy John surgery, as much as the Mets gave Shaun Marcum (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/6427/shaun-marcum), a guy with a 3.62 ERA over the past three seasons.



But this I had forgotten about, and is laughingstock-worthy:


Heck, they even signed Scott Elarton (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/3869/scott-elarton), who hasn't pitched in the majors since 2008, had a 5.41 ERA in Triple-A with the Phillies and basically had two decent seasons in the majors back in 2000 and 2001. The point isn't that Elarton is going to pitch for the Twins, but that their minor league system is so devoid of anybody resembling a major league pitcher that the front office felt compelled to sign a guy who hasn't been good in over a decade.

After erroneously downplaying Parmelee's potential upside, and then "shuddering" about an OF now devoid of one proven outfielder- leading to utter pitching disaster, Schoenfeld throws Twins fans a "lifeline bone" of positivity:


Let's be nice here: These guys are placeholders. Even Scott Diamond (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/_/id/30985/scott-diamond), who pitched so well as a rookie (12-9, 3.54 ERA), is likely ripe for a sophomore slump unless he improves his strikeout rate that ranked 85th among 88 qualified starters. No. 86? Kevin Correia, one of the players the Twins signed in the offseason. ]

Remember 2012? Good times....

snepp
02-12-2013, 05:06 PM
Is there anywhere to track his monthly averages against lefties? I couldn't figure out a way to do it on either FG's or BR.

Not that I'm aware of.

Dance with Disco Dan
02-12-2013, 05:49 PM
Schoenfield really piled on when he said that only the $23 million-dollar Astros roster is between the Twins and the bottom of the talent pile, He's right but still. A decent human being doesn't tell the sweet fat girl she looks terrible in her prom dress. A decent human being tells her that her hair looks really nice.

I guess Schoenfield should get some credit for the D- grade for the pitching staff. That was a social-promotion passing grade if I ever saw one. Move on to 2014 Twins pitchers - you are the new teacher's problem now.

Jerr
02-12-2013, 05:58 PM
A brutal honest take on what the Twins, did or didn't do, but there's a reason you play the game:)
Spring Training and we are all tied for first, GO TWINS!!!!!

luke829
02-12-2013, 06:10 PM
A "D"? Whatever, they're a "D+" easily.

Kwak
02-12-2013, 06:18 PM
Reading that article was like jumping in the frozen lake after a session in the sauna. I was looking for the 90+ wins category on the SN vote--but I couldn't find it.

The Wise One
02-12-2013, 06:41 PM
I don't think the author spent much time looking at the Twins when said to make Perkins a starter. I will grant the negative people out there that there is not much there to look at with the Twins. Likewise to the rose colored glasses fans, Pelfrey wasn't a bad pitcher, Hendricks and Dozier have a litlle promise. If you think you have to drink to watch the Twins, go hng out in Elliott Park with your new friends.

Thrylos
02-12-2013, 06:53 PM
I don't think the author spent much time looking at the Twins when said to make Perkins a starter..

^^^ that

I doubt that Schoenfield watched more than 3 Twins' major league games in 2012 or any Twins' MiLB games to be able to talk about the "talent level" of the organization, including this gem:


but that their minor league system is so devoid of anybody resembling a major league pitcher

Yes, again, Ryan has been his spendthrift self as far as P FAs go, plus the Twins signed a whole lot of over the hill MiLB FAs, like they do evey season, but this does not mean that the Twins do not have enough talent in their minors as far starters who can contribute in 2013 go.

I really take what most National writer types say, with a huge grain of salt, unless I know that they actually know the team they are talking about.

This off-season was kinda disappointing, but for the wrong reasons (namely the Twins did not blow the whole thing up and went for a rebuild and did the half-rear end thing again; and not because they did not sign Bourne and Greinke and the such...)

drjim
02-12-2013, 07:05 PM
Marcum or Saunders and a middle(ing) infielder and we're all happy as clams.

I would speak for yourself on this one. Two marginal upgrades and everyone here would be happy? Do you read the majority of postings?

TheLeviathan
02-12-2013, 07:15 PM
I would speak for yourself on this one. Two marginal upgrades and everyone here would be happy? Do you read the majority of postings?

Speak for yourself on that one.

jokin
02-12-2013, 07:21 PM
I would speak for yourself on this one. Two marginal upgrades and everyone here would be happy? Do you read the majority of postings?

I'm not sure how happy a clam can get, but I know that if they'd bothered to addressing both of those areas- with Marcum and a real major league Shortstop- my Twins happy meter would have gone off the hook.

snepp
02-12-2013, 07:21 PM
Calling Marcum a marginal upgrade is marginalizing his upgradiness.

one_eyed_jack
02-12-2013, 07:25 PM
I would speak for yourself on this one. Two marginal upgrades and everyone here would be happy? Do you read the majority of postings?

---Saunders or Marcum would have been more than marginal upgrades to the rotation. Let's not forget how truly godawful our starting pitching was. An average starter is a lot better than most of what we saw last year.

And an average shortstop would probably give us a lot more than Florimon will.

I don't know about "happy as clams", but a little more help would have made me a lot happier than I am now.

beckmt
02-12-2013, 07:30 PM
Agree with the people who felt the observations were shallow. Twins are going through rebuild without calling it rebuild. This year could be bad, but better times are coming hopefully next year.

crarko
02-12-2013, 07:31 PM
This is Mnnesota, not New England. The proper term is "happy as a pig in slop."

johnnydakota
02-12-2013, 07:45 PM
Schoenfeld assigned the letter grade of "D" for the Twins offseason activity- when so much more could have been done with just the hint of an organizational pulse showing signs of life- this is simply unacceptable. In point of fact, you generally cannot transfer a "D" grade on a course for credit when transferring to another university- so it in reality represents a FAIL on the part of an organization so recently injected with a beautiful, revenue-stream paying ball-park, and a club still replete with 2 former MVPs still near the prime of their careers.

Mr.Ryan acomplished just what he wanted to do....

johnnydakota
02-12-2013, 07:47 PM
A "D"? Whatever, they're a "D+" easily.

D- easy

ThePuck
02-12-2013, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure how happy a clam can get, but I know that if they'd bothered to addressing both of those areas- with Marcum and a real major league Shortstop- my Twins happy meter would have gone off the hook.

I remember the offseason before the 2010 season, when we got Hudson and traded for Hardy, I was booming happy. It really doesn't take much to make some of us happy...the FO has conditioned us to expect offseasons like this one, so when offseasons like the one before the 2010 season happened, it was like XMas!

Oxtung
02-12-2013, 08:12 PM
I'll just chime in to say I'd have been happy with Marcum + Saunders

Kwak
02-12-2013, 08:46 PM
I guess some can be happy with mediocrity. One really useful FA signing rather than a bunch of "arms" would make far more sense to me. I wouldn't have been "happy" but would have pleased that management was going to try to address systemic problems while making some improvement for the 2013 team. I miss Span, but disagree about retaining him because he has "three years of value-service remaining". That feature was likely essential to obtain Meyer in the first place. It is time to see what the other CFers have rather than to continue with Span (and Revere). The "consensus opinion" (whatever) is that the franchise has better OF options than those two and can improve the team by replacing Span and Revere--so to me trading them made sense for both the long term and the short term.
Trade Willingham this off-season? (Add Morneau to this discussion). I counter for what? I would continue that couldn't the same return (or even better) be obtained by waiting? Since I don't know what was offered (for either) I couldn't form an opinion--but I would hate to see Wllingham traded for 1 high-upside, Class A pitcher and then watch the Twins sign Kevein Correia-type OF to replace Willingham until the MiL affliates produced his replacement. The 2013 team will be bad enough with Willingham, replacing him with a placeholder (and a pitching prospect) would be disastrous.

diehardtwinsfan
02-12-2013, 09:28 PM
Mr.Ryan acomplished just what he wanted to do....

yes, I'm sure Mr. Ryan's goal was to build a losing team... I'm not terribly happy about the offseason, but there are some extremes on this board that border on ridiculous. I'd give Ryan a pretty poor grade for 2013 for much the same reasons everyone else did, but he set this team up very nicely for 2014/15 and beyond, and given the state of the team, that makes far more sense than spending everything to win now. Hopefully, come this July, he's flipping Morneau and Willingham for a SS and an SP that can help as well.

drjim
02-12-2013, 09:31 PM
Hey, I would have preferred Marcum and/or McCarthy over Correia, but people are vastly overrating those guys (and Saunders) if they think it would have been much more than a marginal upgrade (win or two, maybe three if they have a great and healthy season and Correia completely collapses). If that is enough to have made you so much more happy with this offseason then your standards are much lower than I thought.

TheLeviathan
02-12-2013, 09:36 PM
Hey, I would have preferred Marcum and/or McCarthy over Correia, but people are vastly overrating those guys (and Saunders) if they think it would have been much more than a marginal upgrade (win or two, maybe three if they have a great and healthy season and Correia completely collapses). If that is enough to have made you so much more happy with this offseason then your standards are much lower than I thought.

This response was pretty predictable. Calling them "marginal" upgrades is a bit silly not because they are great players, but moreso because our options last year really were THAT awful. Even signing an average pitcher is more than a marginal upgrade. Much less Marcum who has been well above average.

edavis0308
02-12-2013, 09:46 PM
Sign two SP, SS, and 2B each that can post a 1-2 WAR improvement (shooting from the hip only here) and all of a sudden we could be approximately 8 wins better. Where is the line between "only a few extra wins" and "enough wins to matter"? I yearn for competent competitive baseball To watch all season, even if its not winning baseball.

one_eyed_jack
02-12-2013, 09:47 PM
Going from godawful to mediocre is more than a marginal upgrade.

Now in the case of Correia, you're talking about going from godawful to just plain awful. That's a marginal upgrade.

Ultima Ratio
02-12-2013, 09:50 PM
Going from godawful to mediocre is more than a marginal upgrade.

Now in the case of Correia, you're talking about going from godawful to just plain awful. That's a marginal upgrade.

But he's been awfully durable. :p

TheLeviathan
02-12-2013, 09:52 PM
Sign two SP, SS, and 2B each that can post a 1-2 WAR improvement (shooting from the hip only here) and all of a sudden we could be approximately 8 wins better. Where is the line between "only a few extra wins" and "enough wins to matter"? I yearn for competent competitive baseball To watch all season, even if its not winning baseball.

I guess the conclusion I'm drawing from drjim's argument is that we have to wait to sign players that are 5-6 WAR before we bother? I'm not sure what qualifies as more than "marginal".

nicksaviking
02-12-2013, 09:55 PM
What about Marcum and Haren? That would have bred some optimism in my soul. Maybe the Twins and Astros are just both angling for Carlos Rodon come the 2014 draft.

Ultima Ratio
02-12-2013, 09:57 PM
I guess the conclusion I'm drawing from drjim's argument is that we have to wait to sign players that are 5-6 WAR before we bother? I'm not sure what qualifies as more than "marginal".

Right, but then we can't even give money away to get them. :)

Top Gun
02-12-2013, 10:36 PM
More BEER!

ashburyjohn
02-12-2013, 10:36 PM
I'm not sure how happy a clam can get

Geico probably has an ad in the works that covers this.

Top Gun
02-12-2013, 10:37 PM
More beer!!

Twins Twerp
02-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Reading that article was like jumping in the frozen lake after a session in the sauna. I was looking for the 90+ wins category on the SN vote--but I couldn't find it.

For me, it was like that first freezing football practice where your hands are frozen. Then you go inside and tell the guys from dlwn south that u need to immediately put those hands under hot running water. I got that tingly feeling in my head and stomach. Needles. All said tho, this is oneguys opinion and I even read that the twins got a vote from a top executive for most improved al team. Espn even

FrodaddyG
02-12-2013, 11:36 PM
I even read that the twins got a vote from a top executive for most improved al team.
It is kind of suspicious that that vote claimed the Twins did some "pretty darn good executiveing" this offseason. Hmmm...

ThePuck
02-13-2013, 06:52 AM
..and I even read that the twins got a vote from a top executive for most improved al team. Espn even

Do you have a link so all of us can read it?

drjim
02-13-2013, 07:51 AM
This response was pretty predictable. Calling them "marginal" upgrades is a bit silly not because they are great players, but moreso because our options last year really were THAT awful. Even signing an average pitcher is more than a marginal upgrade. Much less Marcum who has been well above average.

I was thinking more in regards to upgrade on what they had already done as opposed to upgrade on tbe slop from last year.

I just find the premise hilarious that if the Twins did what Rocketpig suggested that people on this board would be happy.

Brock Beauchamp
02-13-2013, 08:05 AM
I was thinking more in regards to upgrade on what they had already done as opposed to upgrade on tbe slop from last year.

I just find the premise hilarious that if the Twins did what Rocketpig suggested that people on this board would be happy.

Many would. Most of the board is thrilled about the trades. Had Ryan made anything more than token offers on the free agency market, I think the board's attitude would be generally positive.

Most of us realize that we're in a bridge year to the future. Only delusional people expecting the Twins to make a run at Greinke.

Badsmerf
02-13-2013, 09:02 AM
Only delusional people expecting the Twins to make a run at Greinke.

I hate you so much right.

This article is a joke. This guy obviously knows nothing about the Twins. I don't disagree with everything he wrote, but blasting Parmelee, not even mentioning Benson, suggesting Perkins should start, not even mentioning Hendriks, this guy is clueless about this team. The only "D" grade I can agree with is starting pitching, even then I say it is a D+ with potential to be better with some luck. I'm as disappointed as anyone about the lack of attention to the ML roster, but at least there is promise here. This team could be competitive as early as next season. I'm hoping JR is saving money this offseason to sign some good starting pitching next....

silverslugger
02-13-2013, 09:27 AM
Like it or not, this article is probably a good barometer of the national perception surrounding the Twins right now. Let's face it, our 25 man roster doesn't exactly strike fear in any opponents. I'm not exactly happy with what Ryan accomplished in FA. I am happy with the trades and very excited to watch all of our young talent continue to develop. It just means I'll be paying that much more attention to what's going on down on the farm and probably that much less attention to what's going on at Target Field.

ThePuck
02-13-2013, 09:35 AM
Like it or not, this article is probably a good barometer of the national perception surrounding the Twins right now. Let's face it, our 25 man roster doesn't exactly strike fear in any opponents. I'm not exactly happy with what Ryan accomplished in FA. I am happy with the trades and very excited to watch all of our young talent continue to develop. It just means I'll be paying that much more attention to what's going on down on the farm and probably that much less attention to what's going on at Target Field.

Reality is a tough pill for some to swallow.

fairweather
02-13-2013, 09:54 AM
These are the kinds of articles that should be in the star trib every day. Their should be no end the the public berating and belittling of the Twins ownership and front office by the media for their off season actions.

ND-Fan
02-13-2013, 11:08 AM
The twins didn't need to sign the top of free agents lists for pitchers to improve this team but put much more effort into signing some of one year deals with free agent pitchers. First they had payroll fexibility to do so and even if season was a bust they could trade these pitchers for
a prospect or for a player that might fit into organization longterm planning. Aslo there have been a few middle infielders they could have signed to upgrade the level the twins have. Another possibility they could have traded for SS prospect that is major league ready and would still fit with total
rebuild the Twins are in now.This use of one year deals would not affected longterm goal or rebuilding and would still leave club option when this team is really ready to compete. This use of short term contracts would have left twins with a club that would have played 5oo ball and on outside chance they may have made the playoffs something for fans watch and optimism of future to come. The bottom line is philosophy of Twins and Terry Ryan is build within and be patience to get where your at. The Twins did well with this plan back in Terry's first stint as GM and this will probably work well again to building a team with least amount of dollars spent. The other side of this is what does it do to the revenue stream for club in the future by lost future attendance and Tv revenue if
Twins go through dark period like last time it makes Twins brand name less desireable product to put on TV. I think this was little bit of what you saw was difference with Bill Smith and Twins ownership he wanted use free Agent market to build team in near future but costs look to risky from ownership. Also Bill Smith track record on player aquitions were poor and had shown no where of improvement. I think Twins do wonderful job of scounting and identifying talent under Terry Ryan's leadership but when it comes to free agents Twins really fall down on this
because their behind on the curve. They are not using sabermetrics on prooven players to determine where they are at in their carreers but still using scounting and what they think they can be. Until they update this part of organization and start using it we are left with a team rebuilding from within waiting until they get right mix of playes to compete again.

Nick Nelson
02-13-2013, 11:43 AM
I just find the premise hilarious that if the Twins did what Rocketpig suggested that people on this board would be happy.

What makes you say that? They made pretty much the smallest dent possible in the free agent market (short of not signing anybody). It's just not an impressive group of additions from any perspective really. If your assertion is that people are going to complain about anyone the Twins sign, you should probably go back and take a look at the responses to the Willingham and Doumit signings last year.

snepp
02-13-2013, 11:57 AM
I just find the premise hilarious that if the Twins did what Rocketpig suggested that people on this board would be happy.

Is it more hilarious than taking what's obviously an extreme position, while being absolutely convinced that it's right?

mike wants wins
02-13-2013, 01:10 PM
I would not hold my breath on local writers holding the team that accountable. D for 2013 sounds about right. They are likely worse at two OF spots, did nothing to improve the infield, and added bad starters to the rotation. B sounds about right for the future.

ThePuck
02-13-2013, 01:40 PM
B sounds about right for the future.

If we assume Worley. May and Meyer all work out, absolutely.

diehardtwinsfan
02-13-2013, 01:52 PM
If we assume Worley. May and Meyer all work out, absolutely.

You cannot really look at it that strictly. Odds are good one of those guys won't work out... that's just a fact. The team desparately needed pitching, and it went and got some. You are going to have to take some risks... Hopefully, Ryan did a better job doing one of those type of "trade from surplus" trades than what Smith did for his. As his two big pitching surplus trades look really bad right now.

I'd also add that Worley has ML time at this point and you know what his floor is. Looking at his minor league numbers, the guy could still improve a bit too.

ThePuck
02-13-2013, 01:55 PM
You cannot really look at it that strictly. Odds are good one of those guys won't work out... that's just a fact. The team desparately needed pitching, and it went and got some. You are going to have to take some risks... Hopefully, Ryan did a better job doing one of those type of "trade from surplus" trades than what Smith did for his. As his two big pitching surplus trades look really bad right now.

I'd also add that Worley has ML time at this point and you know what his floor is. Looking at his minor league numbers, the guy could still improve a bit too.

So, give them a grade of B for the future based on something other than the results of the players they got for the future? If they end up dogs, still give them a B?

mike wants wins
02-13-2013, 05:08 PM
You should judge the trade twice.....first in what you know at the time of the trade. Second, years later. But, really, the most fair is the first, given what you know now, would you make the trade? Anyone can make a good decision five years later. Now, that said, we do not have the same information as Ryan....so that makes it a bit harder.....if all three out pitchers work out, it is an A for the future......

LoganJones
02-14-2013, 12:40 PM
The Twins outlook isn't surefire rosy, but this is a crap article. They have at least as much on-field talent as every team in the division except Detroit. That isn't saying much, I know.

edavis0308
02-14-2013, 12:46 PM
The Twins outlook isn't surefire rosy, but this is a crap article. They have at least as much on-field talent as every team in the division except Detroit. That isn't saying much, I know.

No, they really dont.

LoganJones
02-14-2013, 12:58 PM
No, they really dont.
I'm looking at the rosters. I'm not seeing any really talented teams out there.

nicksaviking
02-14-2013, 01:41 PM
I'm looking at the rosters. I'm not seeing any really talented teams out there.

Being objective and realistic about our favorite team doesn't make you any less of a fan.

terencemann
02-14-2013, 01:54 PM
I'm looking at the rosters. I'm not seeing any really talented teams out there.

The Indians have a better offense than the Twins with decent defense. Their rotation is probably as good as the Twins. The Royals are average to above average in left field, center, third, short, first, DH, and catcher. They made some improvements to their rotation, too. The White Sox are pretty much the same team as last season, which is still better than the Twins. This season for the Twins is more about getting the chance to bring up some minor leaguers and put the team on track for being better in 2014 than it is about immediate success. I find the 68 win projections to be very accurate.

crarko
02-14-2013, 02:03 PM
For my nickel I think there could be a logjam for second place in the AL Central between teams with nearly identical losing records. It wouldn't take much. Could be the most favorable inter league schedule determines it.

But that is, as they say, why they still play the games.

mcrow
02-14-2013, 02:06 PM
I think the roster is better on paper than last year but not by enough to result in a significant number of wins above what they had last year.

FrodaddyG
02-14-2013, 02:22 PM
I'm looking at the rosters. I'm not seeing any really talented teams out there.
This is an excellent point, and the Twins are obviously as good top to bottom as every other team in the division.

(Big Brother is watching, kids.)

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-14-2013, 02:24 PM
I'm looking at the rosters. I'm not seeing any really talented teams out there.

LOL this is basically the same as going up to the fat girl at the beach and telling her "you are the most beautiful woman here" while there are solid 718's, 818's and 919's all over the place.

Listen, I am as big of a homer as they come when they come to the Twins, and I still hold hope that ALL goes right and they compete this year, but the Twins on field talent on paper is pretty weak, they have question marks arguably at the following positions (SP,SP,SP,SP, RP, 1B, 3B,SS,2B, RF, CF)

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
I think the roster is better on paper than last year but not by enough to result in a significant number of wins above what they had last year.

I am going to disagree with you, we lost Span, Revere, Baker, Pavano and replaced them with Worley and Correia for the most part. However I think we will get more wins then last year, because injuries hit us HARD last year.

twinsnorth49
02-14-2013, 02:29 PM
I would speak for yourself on this one. Two marginal upgrades and everyone here would be happy? Do you read the majority of postings?

Yeah, that would have went a long way in being happier, at the very least it would have indicated they were willing to TRY.

snepp
02-14-2013, 02:30 PM
I am going to disagree with you, we lost Span, Revere, Baker, Pavano and replaced them with Worley and Correia for the most part. However I think we will get more wins then last year, because injuries hit us HARD last year.

Getting healthy......is just like making a trade.

terencemann
02-14-2013, 02:31 PM
For my nickel I think there could be a logjam for second place in the AL Central between teams with nearly identical losing records. It wouldn't take much. Could be the most favorable inter league schedule determines it.

But that is, as they say, why they still play the games.

LOL. This could be very true. Indians, Royals, and White Sox are all hovering around it each other it seems.

twinsnorth49
02-14-2013, 02:49 PM
"Basically, check back in 2015."

This is basically the gist of the entire off-season, and it didn't have to be that way.

Outfield is a huge question mark, MI is completely unproven, 3rd base is a work in progress but wishful at best, we all know about the pitching, the leadoff and bottom 3rd of the order is a big prayer and the we get to the bench.

He definitely has a shallow understanding of the organization as a whole and knows very little about the ceiling on the prospects we expect to see this year. The rest is just a matter of reality bites, you can hope he's wrong about most of it but that's about it.

LoganJones
02-14-2013, 03:13 PM
LOL this is basically the same as going up to the fat girl at the beach and telling her "you are the most beautiful woman here" while there are solid 718's, 818's and 919's all over the place.

Listen, I am as big of a homer as they come when they come to the Twins, and I still hold hope that ALL goes right and they compete this year, but the Twins on field talent on paper is pretty weak, they have question marks arguably at the following positions (SP,SP,SP,SP, RP, 1B, 3B,SS,2B, RF, CF)

LOL this is the same as going to read something and failing to comprehed. I am saying that the Twins are just as talented as the 3 other relatively talent-free teams that will fight for the AL central basement. Obviously ther are all sorts of good teams in baseball, just not in the AL central.

FrodaddyG
02-14-2013, 03:19 PM
LOL this is the same as going to read something and failing to comprehed. I am saying that the Twins are just as talented as the 3 other relatively talent-free teams that will fight for the AL central basement. Obviously ther are all sorts of good teams in baseball, just not in the AL central.
This is an excellent point, and you obviously have a very deep reserve of talent evaluation. Thank you for your brilliant insights.

mike wants wins
02-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Who cares if they are awful but not as awful as Cleveland? I do not think finishing with 72 wins, but ahead of Cleveland, is anything to be happy about.

edavis0308
02-14-2013, 03:23 PM
Who cares if they are awful but not as awful as Cleveland? I do not think finishing with 72 wins, but ahead of Cleveland, is anything to be happy about.

I can say with pretty high certainty that the Indians finish at least 5 games ahead of us this year.

mike wants wins
02-14-2013, 03:27 PM
That was not the point people were making above.

edavis0308
02-14-2013, 03:28 PM
That was not the point people were making above.

Valid point haha.

mcrow
02-14-2013, 03:31 PM
I am going to disagree with you, we lost Span, Revere, Baker, Pavano and replaced them with Worley and Correia for the most part. However I think we will get more wins then last year, because injuries hit us HARD last year.

We are worse in CF but given there was no Pavano or Baker due to injury for a good chunk of the year the pitching staff is improved over what we saw most of the season last year. If you have a healthy Baker and Pavano at the same time last year's rotation is better than this year's but based on what we actually saw on the field I think the rotation is better this year.

I don't think we replaced Baker, but I think Worley could potentially be an improvement on Pavano though he might not be the 220 inning type of guy. I think if Baker is health this year he can be a good #2 pitcher. Hard to replace a #2.

I think that Diamond + Worley+ Correia+Pelfrey+ Hendriks is better than Diamond+Liariano+Blackburn+Devries+Hendriks/Deduno

LoganJones
02-14-2013, 03:38 PM
I can say with pretty high certainty that the Indians finish at least 5 games ahead of us this year.
How? Do you have any concept of how really really bad Cleveland was last year? They out performed their pyrec by 4 games and only won 68.

crarko
02-14-2013, 03:39 PM
How?

Cerrano learns how to hit the curveball.

jokin
02-14-2013, 03:40 PM
LOL this is basically the same as going up to the fat girl at the beach and telling her "you are the most beautiful woman here" while there are solid 718's, 818's and 919's all over the place.

Listen, I am as big of a homer as they come when they come to the Twins, and I still hold hope that ALL goes right and they compete this year, but the Twins on field talent on paper is pretty weak, they have question marks arguably at the following positions (SP,SP,SP,SP, RP, 1B, 3B,SS,2B, RF, CF)

I concur. Also better than a fighting chance at having the worst bench in baseball.

Proof that both the biggest homer and biggest critic of their favorite team are seeing the same data sets and demanding different approaches and levels of acceptance in the velocity-of-urgency and mindset-approach at addressing these glaring deficiencies.

snepp
02-14-2013, 03:41 PM
How?

By winning more games?

jokin
02-14-2013, 03:44 PM
Yeah, that would have went a long way in being happier, at the very least it would have indicated they were willing to TRY.

Careful there, you might join us mouthbreathers with that kind of talk:roll:

LoganJones
02-14-2013, 04:01 PM
Cerrano learns how to hit the curveball.
You no help me hit curveball. Well I say, get allstate, Jobu.

edavis0308
02-14-2013, 04:02 PM
How? Do you have any concept of how really really bad Cleveland was last year? They out performed their pyrec by 4 games and only won 68.

Seeing as how bad we were, and how many more additions they made to their team......you know what, youre right.

crarko
02-14-2013, 04:10 PM
You no help me hit curveball. Well I say, get allstate, Jobu.

Bats switch to Geico. Bats no longer afraid.

TheLeviathan
02-14-2013, 04:27 PM
How? Do you have any concept of how really really bad Cleveland was last year? They out performed their pyrec by 4 games and only won 68.

Cleveland's version of LoganJones just ignored you. Strange how anything but optimism about our team is frowned upon by you, but nothing short of rampant pessimism about another team is shunned.

twinsnorth49
02-14-2013, 05:12 PM
Careful there, you might join us mouthbreathers with that kind of talk:roll:

I was cautious not to say they didn't care,I saw how that turned out. Apparently it's a very fine line.

LaBombo
02-14-2013, 05:22 PM
How? Do you have any concept of how really really bad Cleveland was last year? They out performed their pyrec by 4 games and only won 68.

They sucked and then got better in the offseason. The Royals sucked and then got better in the offseason. The Twins sucked and then got worse in the offseason. That's how.

Cleveland added a net 8 wins above replacement or so just to their outfield alone, while snaring one of the better pitching prospects in baseball. Shields has a good chance to give the Royals more wins above replacement than the Twins will get from their entire rotation.

I liked the Revere trade, and respect at least the intent of the Span trade, if not the result. It's a rebuilding year despite Ryan's refusal to admit it publicly, so who cares whether they lose 90 or 100? But I liked the Cerano thing. Time to dig that out for the annual spring training screening.

diehardtwinsfan
02-14-2013, 05:28 PM
So, give them a grade of B for the future based on something other than the results of the players they got for the future? If they end up dogs, still give them a B?

Ask any propspect person... There is no such thing as a pitching prospect. Period. Aquiring one is inherantly risky, and like everyone else has stated, no one gives up the best ones because of how valuable they are. Looking at it today, Ryan got a top 50 pitcher and a guy who is border top 100 (and could return to it) out of that surplus. I doubt he would have gotten much better elsewhere.

lee_the_twins_fan
02-14-2013, 06:57 PM
Schoenfeld just doesn't get it. Neither do many of the posters here.

The Twins had BAD pitching last year. When your top pitcher is a rookie and wins only 12 games, it tells me none of the veterans did very well. All of our veteran starters (other than Diamond) from last year are gone. We have new talent coming in. Regardless of who gets picked for the other four starting pitching positions, they will be different from last year. The Twins were not going to go out and sign the top FA pitchers – When have we ever done that? It would be a huge waste of money – even if we could convince them to come here.

Getting pitchers like Correia, Pelfrey, Worley, Harden and now Perez, among others, is a complete re-vamping of our starting pitching staff.

One poster listed all of the places where there are question marks. There were fewer question marks two years ago, when the Twins lost 99 games. Question marks bring competition, which helps keep players sharp and on their toes. Yes, it's nice as a player, like Morneau, to know he's starting at 1B. He deserves that. But other than Mauer, Morneau, Doumit and Willingham, no one among our projected position players should be too comfortable. If I were even Parmelee, I'd be looking behind me at all the talent in the minor leagues ready to replace me – Hicks, Arcia, Benson and others. If I were Plouffe, I'd be working like crazy on improving my defense, and being consistent on offense. Dozier, Florimon, Escobar and even Carroll should know they're fighting for a roster spot, if not for a starting position.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think the Twins will be much better than Schoenfeld projects. Remember that while others in the AL Central also improved, they'll be playing a lot of games against each other. I think there's more parity in the Central than last year.

Yes, no one will be fearing the Twins as the season starts. No one feared us last year either, or in 1987 or 1991. Until we see how this team does – as a team - we really won't know what we have.

LaBombo
02-14-2013, 06:58 PM
Ryan got a top 50 pitcher and a guy who is border top 100 (and could return to it) out of that surplus. I doubt he would have gotten much better elsewhere.

The Indians basically got Bauer, Stubbs, and two relievers for a year of Choo and 3 years of a middle reliever. Ryan gave up three years of Span for Meyer, who is by most estimates a lower upside pitcher than Bauer.

ThePuck
02-14-2013, 07:10 PM
Ask any propspect person... There is no such thing as a pitching prospect. Period. Aquiring one is inherantly risky, and like everyone else has stated, no one gives up the best ones because of how valuable they are. Looking at it today, Ryan got a top 50 pitcher and a guy who is border top 100 (and could return to it) out of that surplus. I doubt he would have gotten much better elsewhere.

I've always understood the common thought process concerning trading for prospects, especially pitching ones. My point is, it's a complete guess. I personally liked the trades myself, but I'm also keenly aware they could end up busts.

twinsnorth49
02-14-2013, 08:01 PM
Schoenfeld just doesn't get it. Neither do many of the posters here.

The Twins had BAD pitching last year. When your top pitcher is a rookie and wins only 12 games, it tells me none of the veterans did very well. All of our veteran starters (other than Diamond) from last year are gone. We have new talent coming in. Regardless of who gets picked for the other four starting pitching positions, they will be different from last year. The Twins were not going to go out and sign the top FA pitchers When have we ever done that? It would be a huge waste of money even if we could convince them to come here.

Getting pitchers like Correia, Pelfrey, Worley, Harden and now Perez, among others, is a complete re-vamping of our starting pitching staff.

One poster listed all of the places where there are question marks. There were fewer question marks two years ago, when the Twins lost 99 games. Question marks bring competition, which helps keep players sharp and on their toes. Yes, it's nice as a player, like Morneau, to know he's starting at 1B. He deserves that. But other than Mauer, Morneau, Doumit and Willingham, no one among our projected position players should be too comfortable. If I were even Parmelee, I'd be looking behind me at all the talent in the minor leagues ready to replace me Hicks, Arcia, Benson and others. If I were Plouffe, I'd be working like crazy on improving my defense, and being consistent on offense. Dozier, Florimon, Escobar and even Carroll should know they're fighting for a roster spot, if not for a starting position.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I think the Twins will be much better than Schoenfeld projects. Remember that while others in the AL Central also improved, they'll be playing a lot of games against each other. I think there's more parity in the Central than last year.

Yes, no one will be fearing the Twins as the season starts. No one feared us last year either, or in 1987 or 1991. Until we see how this team does as a team - we really won't know what we have.

Nobody was seriously thinking we would be going to go after the top free agent pitchers, just some of the mid tier guys that would have been a vast improvement over the staff last year. When most of these guys signed for 1 and 2 year deals (one of them our own), how is that a big waste of money?

It's one thing to revamp your pitching staff, it's quite another to improve it. As far as this year is concerned I don't feel they have done that and if it does it hinges on the fragile health of Harden, the unknown durabilty of Worley and the performance of Pelfrey, I won't even mention Correia. Sorry if that doesn't fill most people with confidence.


Yes, there were fewer question marks two years ago and the Twins lost 99 games, most of those question marks still remain, especially in the pitching department. What exactly have the Twins done to answer those questions with increased competition? Guys like Correia, Pelfrey and Harden count as competition just because they represent something different and have a pulse? You're absolutely right in stating that a number of players should not be too comfortable, specifically the MI and realistically 3rd base, but what have the Twins done to prevent that? NOTHING, no competition to try to improve what we already had.

The talent is coming in the minors, in places, not all of it that soon and we're talking about 2013 anyway.

I'll go along with the naive part, you're right on that one.

........My brother.

Twins Twerp
02-14-2013, 08:34 PM
........My brother.


Nice my brother. This thing is catching on. Remember two years ago when everyone was talking about Tsyoshi. People had mixed feelings about him, but I don't think anyone could have seen him been as bad as he was. There is nothing to compare him to because he is the thing you use when using similes (like or as, thanks Mr. Steiner 9th grade English). Expectations were so high that year. Now, we know we are going to be horrible...mind as well get better for the next year instead of trying to be a middle of the road team for the next decade.

nicksaviking
02-14-2013, 09:23 PM
LOL this is the same as going to read something and failing to comprehed. I am saying that the Twins are just as talented as the 3 other relatively talent-free teams that will fight for the AL central basement. Obviously ther are all sorts of good teams in baseball, just not in the AL central.

The Indians and Royals made significant upgrades to their MLB talent this off season. The White Sox stood still, but so did the Twins. All three clubs were more talented and more competitve than the Twins last year, how could the Twins possibly have pulled even with them?

It's a game made largely of chance so anything could happen, but there is no doubt that the Twins are the least talented team in the AL Central. Least talented pitching staff, least talented OF, least talented infield. They win at catcher, and we can be generous and say they are only the second worst on defense, but as you have conceded that Detroit is more talented than the Twins, then yes, they are the least talented defense of the remaing four teams too.

Nick Nelson
02-15-2013, 12:49 AM
It's just crazy to me that people can try to state with authority the number of games the Twins will win this year. Everyone's entitled to opinion, but must understand that they're ultimately random guesses.

No one expected the Twins to win 85 games in 2000. No one expected them to lose 99 in 2011. No one expected the Orioles to win 93 last year. The Twins might have the worst team in the AL Central on paper (though I think Schoenfield exaggerates their lack of talent quite a bit), but the composition of this roster isn't all that different from some that have won the division before. When you really take a hard look at the players on this roster, is it really that hard to believe the Twins could be respectable if healthy?

edavis0308
02-15-2013, 08:16 AM
The Indians basically got Bauer, Stubbs, and two relievers for a year of Choo and 3 years of a middle reliever. Ryan gave up three years of Span for Meyer, who is by most estimates a lower upside pitcher than Bauer.

They just signed Bourn and got Swisher also. And they signed Brett Meyers.

edavis0308
02-15-2013, 08:21 AM
It's just crazy to me that people can try to state with authority the number of games the Twins will win this year. Everyone's entitled to opinion, but must understand that they're ultimately random guesses.

No one expected the Twins to win 85 games in 2000. No one expected them to lose 99 in 2011. No one expected the Orioles to win 93 last year. The Twins might have the worst team in the AL Central on paper (though I think Schoenfield exaggerates their lack of talent quite a bit), but the composition of this roster isn't all that different from some that have won the division before. When you really take a hard look at the players on this roster, is it really that hard to believe the Twins could be respectable if healthy?

Fair point. Though it is a bit ridiculous to state that the talent on the Twins roster is on par with the other teams in the division after the offseason moves that have been made. Things could break their way for once and they could surprise us all (we all hope actually). And that last part, well, obligatory medical and training staff comment.

mike wants wins
02-15-2013, 08:34 AM
I don't think it is a random guess to say the Twins are likely to win 70-75 games. Likely is a lot different than certain. It is also likely the earth will continue to rotate, that my water will work, that planes won't crash, that processes at my work will run about as efficiently as they did yesterday. Nick, you are almost arguing they should not add good players, because it is only a random guess that, say, Zack Grienke will be better than Kevin Correia, since we can't know with certainty what will happen. Odds are, Zack will be better.

TheLeviathan
02-15-2013, 10:53 AM
The problem with the optimistic take around here is that it ignores the fact that other teams have a right to be optimists. Where you see the difference in roster talent is that if things go right for the Twins - we're relevant. If things go right for the Indians - they could be a playoff team and win the division.

It bugs me when people insist on looking on the rosy side of everything with our team, but don't even try an objective, similar take on another team. With the additions the Indians made and the past success some of their starters have had, they have MUCH more reason to hope than we do. It's really as simple as that.

Willihammer
02-15-2013, 10:55 AM
I don't think it is a random guess to say the Twins are likely to win 70-75 games. Likely is a lot different than certain. It is also likely the earth will continue to rotate, that my water will work, that planes won't crash, that processes at my work will run about as efficiently as they did yesterday. Nick, you are almost arguing they should not add good players, because it is only a random guess that, say, Zack Grienke will be better than Kevin Correia, since we can't know with certainty what will happen. Odds are, Zack will be better.

The 2013 team will bring back everyone from the 2012 bullpen. The bullpen was good for a ERA- or 100 last year. Perfectly average.

They will bring back most of the batting order. The offense had a wRC+ of 97 last year.

Obviously, the 2013 bullpen and offense isn't a lock to be as good (or as bad) as the 2012 squad. If nothing changed year to year then you would be right, there would be no point trying to compete with the Angels and Tigers of the world. Some guys will regress, others will get hot. But, I think there is a reasonably strong basis to expect something like a repeat from those squads as a whole (bullpen and offense), since aside from Span and Revere, they will be losing almost no one (barring injury).

That leaves the starting pitching. Good for a 133 ERA- last year. Dead last.

If you bring that up to even average, to match the rest of the team, then you at least open the possibility for a little Pythagorean luck to take you over the top. 3 teams outperformed their Pythagorean record by 6 games or more last year. 4 teams in 2011. Likewise, as many teams underperformed their pythagorean record.

Then there are injuries and hot streaks, suspensions, whatever. All the other crazy things that happen over the course of a season that change the divisional races.

And, what did this free agent class have an abundance of? Starting pitching. What did the Twins have a lot of to spend? Money.

But they spent it on Kevin Correia, holder of a career 115 ERA-, and Mike Pelfrey, holder of a 109 ERA- when guys like McCarthy (ERA- 92), Baker (97), and Saunders (98) fell off the table for only a few dollars more than the Twins were willing to spend. Its maddening to me.

Now, instead of needing only a few breaks to go their way - breaks that happen for teams every year, they will need to play a perfect season to have a prayer - and still might come up short.

terencemann
02-15-2013, 11:56 AM
I would debate the point that the Twins have much of a chance to have an Orioles-like season. First of all, the Orioles basically tied math to a chair and beat it senseless last season leading to them finishing 11 games better than their pythag. Secondly, the Orioles are built around a bunch of young players entering their prime who were seen to have exceptional ceilings coming up. Guys like Adam Jones and Matt Wieters may have beat their pre-season projections but putting up 4+ win seasons at this age would have been expected of them a few seasons ago.The Twins, on the other hand, have a team that will be carried by players on the wrong side of 30.

The thing about watching a team without a lot of talent is it gives you the opportunity to root for the little things to go right. Mauer and Morneau might still be fun to watch. It'll be fun to see if Willingham can repeat his 2012 numbers. It'll be fun to see what happens if Hicks is brought up. There are plenty of interesting things to watch for in 2013, I just don't think the W-L column is going to be that great.

Willihammer
02-15-2013, 12:11 PM
The '06 Cardinals had a Pythagorean record of 82-79 in the weakest division in baseball, finished first, and won the world series. The '03 Marlins had a Pythagorean record of 87-75. The 2000 Yankees were 85-76, all world series winners. You just have to be good enough to get to the postseason and the Twins have the luxury of playing in one of the weakest divisions in baseball.

Nick Nelson
02-15-2013, 12:20 PM
Nick, you are almost arguing they should not add good players, because it is only a random guess that, say, Zack Grienke will be better than Kevin Correia, since we can't know with certainty what will happen. Odds are, Zack will be better.
I'm not saying that at all. I was clearly very frustrated with the approach they took this offseason, and think they would have given themselves a much better chance at a .500+ finish by acquiring higher caliber players. But the fact that they didn't does not mean they are sure to fail.


The problem with the optimistic take around here is that it ignores the fact that other teams have a right to be optimists. Where you see the difference in roster talent is that if things go right for the Twins - we're relevant. If things go right for the Indians - they could be a playoff team and win the division.
Why is that a problem? From my perspective, relevance is the goal this year. My form of "optimism" is believing that the Twins can be a competitive team that keeps things interesting and provides some promising signs for the future along the way. It's a low and attainable standard that is appropriate after a 95-loss season. I'd be perfectly satisfied with that in a bridge year, and while I know some people have a "playoffs or nothing" attitude, there would be many positive ramifications from that type of season. I agree that Indians fans have "MUCH more reason for hope" as far as winning the division or contending for a championship. All four teams in the Central probably have a better team on paper, as I've said. That doesn't mean it's certain, or even likely, that they will all finish ahead of the Twins.


I would debate the point that the Twins have much of a chance to have an Orioles-like season.
I agree. It's an extreme and unlikely example. The Orioles improved by 24 wins from one season to the next. However, if the Twins even did HALF that they would be close to .500 which I'd view as a success.

70charger
02-15-2013, 12:36 PM
It's just crazy to me that people can try to state with authority the number of games the Twins will win this year. Everyone's entitled to opinion, but must understand that they're ultimately random guesses.

No one expected the Twins to win 85 games in 2000. No one expected them to lose 99 in 2011. No one expected the Orioles to win 93 last year. The Twins might have the worst team in the AL Central on paper (though I think Schoenfield exaggerates their lack of talent quite a bit), but the composition of this roster isn't all that different from some that have won the division before. When you really take a hard look at the players on this roster, is it really that hard to believe the Twins could be respectable if healthy?

You have a little kool-aid stain on your mouth.

...there, you got it.


(Kidding, I actually agree with all of this.)

Kwak
02-15-2013, 01:19 PM
They just signed Bourn and got Swisher also. And they signed Brett Meyers.

But that required dipping into the "expensive free-agent market" where teams must "overpay" for players--and Ryan knows that's "not the right way to build a baseball team".

ashburyjohn
02-15-2013, 01:29 PM
The Indians basically got Bauer, Stubbs, and two relievers for a year of Choo and 3 years of a middle reliever. Ryan gave up three years of Span for Meyer, who is by most estimates a lower upside pitcher than Bauer.

I don't know if Bauer is really a comp for anyone right now. There seems to be a wide range of front-office opinion about him, with some teams (CLE evidently) focusing on his huge talent, while others (including AZ) apparently viewing him as something like the second coming of Nuke LaLoosh, breathing through his eyelids or whatever. I think Terry Ryan is in the camp that views makeup and clubhouse chemistry highly, so it's possible that he would not have traded Span for Bauer straight up, in favor of getting Meyer instead.

I realize Nuke is a fictional character, so Bauer would actually be the first coming. And like many guys who go their own way, Bauer's not that similar to Nuke in terms of specific traits. Just that he seems to be a handful, for the wrong manager.

mike wants wins
02-15-2013, 01:37 PM
Bauer is 21...not sure what people are expecting in terms of maturity.

Kwak
02-15-2013, 01:50 PM
The '06 Cardinals had a Pythagorean record of 82-79 in the weakest division in baseball, finished first, and won the world series. The '03 Marlins had a Pythagorean record of 87-75. The 2000 Yankees were 85-76, all world series winners. You just have to be good enough to get to the postseason and the Twins have the luxury of playing in one of the weakest divisions in baseball.
$2 will buy you a Powerball ticket--we can all dream brother!

70charger
02-15-2013, 01:59 PM
But that required dipping into the "expensive free-agent market" where teams must "overpay" for players--and Ryan knows that's "not the right way to build a baseball team".

You say this like it's bad, but I think the Indians made some terrible deals this offseason in the vain hope that they're just a player or two away (they're not). I would never pay mid-30s Nick Swisher up to $70 million for 5 years. That's just dumb. And I would be even less likely to pay Michael Bourn (a.k.a. Chone Figgins 2: Electric Boogaloo) $48 million for 4 years. And on top of that, they gave up a draft pick to do it. Again, that's just dumb.

This probably has little to do with the philosophy of building a team, with regard to how much should be allotted to drafting, free agency, international, etc., and at what times the amounts should change. But comparing the Indians' offseason approach to the Twins, it's hard for me to see how they did as much better as some people here choose to believe they did. I'm not even seeing how you could say they did better at all.

mike wants wins
02-15-2013, 02:16 PM
Why is it dumb? If you never spend the money, because Every FA contract is an overpay, you never spend money. How is it bad for the Twins, this year and next and the following year, if they had "overspent" on 1 player for the next three years? They never spend the money, ever.

There is a limit to draft money and international money now, so FA and re-signing your own players are the only way to spend real money now.

So, why is it dumb to spend the money, rather than pocket it? What are you saving that money for, if you will never spend it?

The Indians tried to be better, they are mostly filled with young cheap players, so they added veterans that cost money around them. Had the Twins signed Jackson and Sanchez, how would that have hurt them the next 4 years? They have no where else to spend the money......they are getting $25MM more in revenue, every year, starting next year.....they will likely have 1 player on their roster next year making more than $5MM per year, one.

How is it dumb, if there is no where else to spend the money, and you make your team better?

Nick Nelson
02-15-2013, 02:25 PM
You say this like it's bad, but I think the Indians made some terrible deals this offseason in the vain hope that they're just a player or two away (they're not). I would never pay mid-30s Nick Swisher up to $70 million for 5 years. That's just dumb. And I would be even less likely to pay Michael Bourn (a.k.a. Chone Figgins 2: Electric Boogaloo) $48 million for 4 years. And on top of that, they gave up a draft pick to do it. Again, that's just dumb.
Dumb how? The Indians had something like $30 million come off the books this year with Hafner, Sizemore, Lowe and others departing. There's new TV revenue pouring in next year and beyond to help out with the back ends of the deals. The alternative to "overpaying" (or, more accurately, paying market rate) for these guys is to pocket the money and trot out a terrible outfield. As it stands, the Tribe is a credible contender in the division even though they're retooling to some extent. Swisher and Bourn are pretty good players.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-15-2013, 02:55 PM
How is Michael Bourn Chone Figgins version 2.0? Also Swisher is a good bet to stay pretty solid for the next 3-4 years.

snepp
02-15-2013, 03:38 PM
How is Michael Bourn Chone Figgins version 2.0?

Because it supports the "don't bother spending any money" narrative.

TheLeviathan
02-15-2013, 04:44 PM
Why is that a problem? From my perspective, relevance is the goal this year. My form of "optimism" is believing that the Twins can be a competitive team that keeps things interesting and provides some promising signs for the future along the way. It's a low and attainable standard that is appropriate after a 95-loss season. I'd be perfectly satisfied with that in a bridge year, and while I know some people have a "playoffs or nothing" attitude, there would be many positive ramifications from that type of season. I agree that Indians fans have "MUCH more reason for hope" as far as winning the division or contending for a championship. All four teams in the Central probably have a better team on paper, as I've said. That doesn't mean it's certain, or even likely, that they will all finish ahead of the.


You misunderstand. Being relevant is a good thing. In addition to what you said there is the issue of falling revenue as fans get apathetic which hamstrings the future. My beef was more with this obnoxious bent some are on here to dismiss the rest of the AL Central while at the same time imaging all goes right for us. Without some objectivity its hard to take an opinion serious.

The Indians discussion reflects that. They could be pretty damn good if things break right in even small ways.

jokin
02-15-2013, 06:40 PM
You misunderstand. Being relevant is a good thing. In addition to what you said there is the issue of falling revenue as fans get apathetic which hamstrings the future. My beef was more with this obnoxious bent some are on here to dismiss the rest of the AL Central while at the same time imaging all goes right for us. Without some objectivity its hard to take an opinion serious.

The Indians discussion reflects that. They could be pretty damn good if things break right in even small ways.

Plus they have someone like Francona at the helm to shake the "Indians Way" culture and continued tendency to keep shooting themselves in the foot.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
02-15-2013, 06:40 PM
Swap Correia for Marcum and add a remotely decent infielder and I give them a B. But I'd say D+ with what actually happened. The Revere trade went really well, but in hindsight I'm not as sure if I like the Span one. You give a young 3.5 WAR a season player for a likely bullpen arm?! They dropped a lot of dead weight, but not all of it. And of course, I'm pissed about the salary cap like everyone else. Craig Leopold, please buy the Twins too!

jokin
02-15-2013, 06:48 PM
Swap Correia for Marcum and add a remotely decent infielder and I give them a B. But I'd say D+ with what actually happened. The Revere trade went really well, but in hindsight I'm not as sure if I like the Span one. You give a young 3.5 WAR a season player for a likely bullpen arm?! They dropped a lot of dead weight, but not all of it. And of course, I'm pissed about the salary cap like everyone else. Craig Leopold, please buy the Twins too!

Did you get your M&M boys mixed up? We'd all be sorely disappointed if the guy they have tabbed for future ace, Meyer, turns out to be the likely bullpen arm of the two.

jokin
02-15-2013, 06:56 PM
You say this like it's bad, but I think the Indians made some terrible deals this offseason in the vain hope that they're just a player or two away (they're not). I would never pay mid-30s Nick Swisher up to $70 million for 5 years. That's just dumb. And I would be even less likely to pay Michael Bourn (a.k.a. Chone Figgins 2: Electric Boogaloo) $48 million for 4 years. 1) And on top of that, they gave up a draft pick to do it. Again, that's just dumb.

This probably has little to do with the philosophy of building a team, with regard to how much should be allotted to drafting, free agency, international, etc., and at what times the amounts should change. But comparing the Indians' offseason approach to the Twins, it's hard for me to see how they did as much better as some people here choose to believe they did. 2) I'm not even seeing how you could say they did I'm not even seeing how you could say they did better at all.

1) The Indians retained their top pick. Giving up a top 40 pick is far less risky than giving up a top 10 pick. That's smart baseball if you're trying to win and make a media splash and impact the fan interest sooner rather than later, which obviously is the intention of Francona and ownership.

2) Your screed reads much more like wishful thinking than objective analysis. Most, if not virtually every objective person that knows anything about baseball and followed this offseason's developments , didn't "choose to believe it", they just made objective comparisons of on-paper superiority in talent acquisition relative to the money available (of which, the Indians were in the same position as the Twins).