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View Full Version : Souhan: Being A Twins Fan Requires Patience



John Bonnes
02-11-2013, 05:47 PM
The Twins couldn't have spun things better themselves. And I mean that as a compliment. Souhan argues that Terry Ryan and the Twins are solely focused on the future, even if he won't admit it.


The Twins' unwillingness to spend more money on this year's team is a signal that Ryan doesn't think this team is one player away from winning, whether he'll admit it or not. Think of this year not as 2011, when the Twins fell apart, but as 1999-2000, when Ryan began feeding playing time to his best young players while accepting the losses that followed.

Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)

I'm still dissappointed in the free agent strategy this offseason, and I think Ryan really blew it on a couple of moves, but Souhan's paradigm is an enticing one.

Souhan: Forbearance serves Twins and their fans well | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/190532921.html)

Willihammer
02-11-2013, 05:50 PM
They aren't mutually exclusive

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 08:15 PM
Wow..he might as well work for the Twin PR department...there has been a full load of carp coming out of the Star Tribune lately...this one dares to tell people how to be fans....and labels certain fans...nouveau.

one_eyed_jack
02-11-2013, 08:40 PM
All right, who slipped the Twins Kool Aid into Souhan's morning coffee. Fess up.

I do not understand the whole "Yeah we suck now, but that's OK, because we've got these great prospects who will be able to help us in a year. Or two. Or maybe three." Souhan can point to the '99-00 Twins, I can point to the Royals and Pirates of the last 20 years.

Howard Sinker had it right. Building for 2015 is great. Refusing to build a bridge to 2015 is unacceptable. Why would we as fans tolerate the Twins' refusal to put a quality team on the field? What other business says to its customers "Yeah, we know our product sucks. We've got some great improvements planned, but they won't really make it to production for another 2-3 years. Still we expect you to keep buying from us until then." It's ludicrous.

Especially in this division. A couple of other decent, reliable players could really have made a difference in the outlook this year. But instead, we're going in with question marks all over the place, and it's not likely the answers will all be in our favor.

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 09:36 PM
Through this lens, the year's blunderous free agent pitching strategy doesn't look that important. In fact, it looks like side concern, because the priority needed to be getting young players. (In fact, one could argue it's even a decent strategy, as it leads to a higher draft pick.)



Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."

Brock Beauchamp
02-11-2013, 09:36 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

jokin
02-11-2013, 09:42 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

Yeah, but then, collectively as this generation of fans, we couldn't have been educated and lectured to on the extreme value of "forbearance". What a load of excrement, as Souhan hits another new low.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:04 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.

Wow Brock, never thought I'd see you join the ranks of the mouth breathers crew on this site but you just gave it a good shot. Carroll has no trade value and is much better then any internal option, they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers, I wouldn't be shocked if he was traded later this year and plus, the twins can compete in 2014 when he is still under contract. Perkins is still young and could be a big piece moving forward, unless you wanna go out and overpay for a closer when the Twins do compete again.

iMO the only terrible decision made this off season was giving Corrieia the 2nd year. But at least that is only 5 mil

TheLeviathan
02-11-2013, 10:08 PM
they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers,

Source?

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:10 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.


Failure begets failure. It's not so easy to get young prospects accustomed to losing to suddenly become winners when the front office says, "okay, now we'll try and win."
Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:12 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.


Source?
Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)

PseudoSABR
02-11-2013, 10:12 PM
The thing is that they're not even rebuilding, really. Why is Caroll still on this team? Why wasn't Willingham shopped aggressively? What about Perkins?

If you're going to blow it up, then blow it up properly. Don't ride the fence and expect fans to be okay with the decision. I'm fine with going one way or the other. I'm not okay with half-assing both sides and then asking for my money in ticket sales.You're being pretty assumptious that the guys you mention would receive maximum value this offseason. All those guys can still be traded.

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 10:16 PM
Are you serious? Have you followed baseball for long? Rebuilding is a part of it, young prospects are going to be hungry to kick ass regardless, not just to "win" but to keep playing for that big contract down the road and even to keep their major league paycheck. The idea that a rebuilding team will teach young prospects to "not win" is simply absurd and has no historical basis to back that up.

If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 10:19 PM
The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.

They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 10:20 PM
They don't have our braintrust or our manager :-)

Nor a super cohesive, quiet clubhouse -- I'd bet.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:27 PM
If the strategy is to really go after that first pick, then why not really try and put rookies out there, up and down? That will get you the most losses and the first pick.

The Royals and Pirates are two examples of teams that have had plenty of time to rebuild and somehow never get it done, not even close. They lose, get high picks, and keep on losing.

Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 10:36 PM
Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.

The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, he was in charge the first time 14 years...why not include it all?

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 10:36 PM
Nobody is suggesting they are going after the first pick or should be, you can rebuild and not try to be the worst team in baseball FYI.

The Pirates and Royals are lazy and stupid examples, the Twins currently have the #2 system in all of baseball (according to Law) and have a GM that won them 5 division titles in 8 years, not to mention they have the payroll flexibility to be one of the top 10-12 teams in the league when it comes to total dollars spent, the Pirates and Royals have had neither of those during their 2 decades of suck.

Sure I would have loved the Twins to bring in a better pitcher then Correria and brought in another starter and MI to boot, but in reality this year has always been a rebuilding year, the nice thing is it is very possible the rebuilding process could be very short and we could be competing as soon as 2014.

Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:39 PM
The GM won them 8 division titles in 8 years? The GM? First, your info is incorrect. They didn't win 5 division titles in 8 years while he was in charge. Second, the players win.
They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 10:43 PM
They won those division titles with the team he put together through draft/trades etc. Once he left **** started to goto hell, see: Johan trade, Garza trade etc

Second your argument that "the players win" is ****ing retarded: So what you are saying is: When the team sucks it's the GMS fault, but when the team is good its the players that win, and the GM has nothing to do with it??

So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...took him 9 seasons to win his first division

And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up.

BTW, I'm sure you'll give Smith some credit too since many of our best prospects were brought in under his watch...

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:44 PM
Fair enough, but I was responding to Bonnes assertion that the quizzical signings this winter were, perhaps, a good strategy to try and get higher picks. I would think that the players, though recognizing that these are rebuilding years, would be pretty pissed that the strategy for this year is to go battle your tails off, just no too much that we win a bunch of games. I think that's a blow to morale longer term and the kind of damage to a team's culture and competitiveness that could lead to stagnation and apathy that takes some real rooting out.
These players are professional players who get paid a lot of money for what they do, yes sometimes you have crappy seasons but I imagine any of the guys signed for longer then this year understand the plan, and even if they don't its in their best personal interest to play as hard as possible to win every game.

Need an example? Look no further then the 1990 and 1991 Minnesota Twins, finishing in last place didn't seem to destroy the 91 Twins morale to much, ya know?

TheLeviathan
02-11-2013, 10:47 PM
Numerous mlbtraderumor posts that stated such, and then stated that the twins couldn't get much in return at the current time for him (I believe one GM was quoted as them only being able to get a back end rotation type back for him, which we certainly don't have enough of currently!)

I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:47 PM
So why not include his whole body of work? 14 years the first time...

And I took out the 'players win thing' because yes, he deserves SOME credit for the winning (not all) and SOME of the fault for the losing as well .

But I do like the '****retarded' comment...so grown up

Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 10:48 PM
Fine, 5 division titles in 14 years, still a hell of a lot better then what the Royals and Pirates have done, no?

Try to re-fraise/back away from your orginal comment all you want, after you get called out on it. As you said before "the players win", so stick by it champ.

And yes it was a ****ing "stupid" comment. I apologize for using the word retarded, it was inappropriate. But it certainly was stupid.

well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write. I though it was dumb of me to say so I changed it. Notice I didn't deny saying it..

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:48 PM
I followed that pretty closely because I felt we were really missing out on an opportunity and I never heard any such thing. He was shopped, but all we know is that the Twins felt they didn't get good value. But I never read anything about what those offers were.

It came out that an opposing GM said Willinghams value was that of a back end rotation guy, because most teams (like most of us fans) realized that Willingham was very unlikely to duplicate his excellent 2012 moving forward. Plus the guy has very little defensive value and injury issues. I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.

Also FWIW: I think Ryan in his past stint and this off-season has shown how he is at least good at gauging correct value for trade targets, I think most of us are happy with the hauls for Span and certainly Revere, why not at least give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to trading additional veterans? (Especially when everyone is going to crucify him for everything else)

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:51 PM
well, 5 division titles in 14 years if you extend two more years out...16. Heck, why not give him credit for 2010 too. Right after 2009.

I backed away from it before you 'called me on it'...before I ever read your post...so don't flatter yourself. Believe me, nothing you say will make me feel bad about what I write
Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.

TheLeviathan
02-11-2013, 10:54 PM
I can try to look up the exact quote later, but it was certainly featured on MLBtraderumors and discussed here at the time I believe.

Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 10:55 PM
Frame it however you want champ, its still not as dumb as comparing the Twins organization to that of the Pirates or Royals.

Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:58 PM
Never saw any such thing. I have trouble believing that quite frankly. I don't doubt Ryan's ability to gauge the value he is getting in return for a trade - I question how hard he was looking. I think he sees Willingham as a "core" guy that they aren't all that interested in moving.
Nov 9th MLB trade rumors:

The Twins might not receive much more than a No. 4 starter in exchange for Josh Willingham (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo03.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com), an AL executive tells Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities Radio (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_If_Twins_trade_Willingham_the_return_might_ be_underwhelming110812). "There's no doubt Josh has a very good contract, but I really doubt a team would trade a viable starting pitcher for a guy with a strong bat but who is limited defensively," the executive said. "It's a lot easier to find a left-field or DH-type than to trade a good starting pitcher for one and then have to backfill the rotation spot." The 33-year-old Willingham is owed $14MM through 2014 and posted an .890 OPS last season, but another AL executive says Denard Span (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spande01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) is a better trade chip for Minnesota.
Read more at Josh Willingham Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/josh_willingham/#dALxYjoLTW6RWYSF.99)

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-11-2013, 10:59 PM
Alright champ...I'm sure your faith in Ryan will be confirmed when they win 90+ games...as you're predicting...

I'm not predicting they will win 90 games... I voted and commented on that as an obvious snark/joke.

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 11:02 PM
Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

ThePuck
02-11-2013, 11:06 PM
Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

Pure poetry...by a person thinking the quality of posts/posters have gone down so much since the good old days :-)
Nothing brings up the quality of posts quite like that kind of poetry...

Ultima Ratio
02-11-2013, 11:09 PM
Pure poetry...by a person thinking the quality of posts/posters have gone down so much since the good old days :-)
Nothing brings up the quality of posts quite like that kind of poetry...

I find this irony as queer as smoking while on a cannula of oxygen.

TheLeviathan
02-11-2013, 11:09 PM
Nov 9th MLB trade rumors

Thanks....you do realize that quote isn't at all what you've portrayed it to be....right?

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-12-2013, 12:01 AM
Thanks....you do realize that quote isn't at all what you've portrayed it to be....right?

There were numerous other reports out there saying the Twins were shopping Willingham, but were waiting for the right price, just like the numerous reports that said they were shopping Span and waiting for the right price, the reality is there is no huge rush to trade Willingham at this point anyways, the OF just lost 2 of its 3 starting people this off-season so off the bat plenty of rookies (or near rookies) such as Benson, hicks, Parmelee will get there shot in the OF, if the Twins are out of it (most likely) they will def have Willingham back on the block, my question to you is: would you rather have traded him back then for sub value, or waited until his value went up a bit to get rid of him?

FWIW: I don't mind them holding onto him heading into the season, if by some small chance the Twins are able to compete Willingham will be a big reason why. I think it was pretty obvious the Twins were rebuilding when they choose to trade both Span and Revere this off-season for players who for the most part won't be able to help in 2013 (the exception being Worley who arguably wasn't the center piece of that trade anyways)

Again I will keep faith in Ryan because he has had a solid track record in the past building teams and because the Twins suddenly have at op farm system in baseball along with a decent core of players at the major league level who have some talent (albeit the ones without a lot of talent are pretty bad!)

SpiritofVodkaDave
02-12-2013, 12:02 AM
Lazy, stupid, retarded, dumb, ****: The seminal arrows in a logician's quiver -- Aristotle

LOL who is being the condescending prick now? Instead of playing the holier then now schtick how about you respond to the actual arguments at hand?

Oldgoat_MN
02-12-2013, 12:45 AM
Does anyone remember what the article was about? Oh yeah, Souhan.

I believe more could have been done. I think more should have been done.

The article (remember the article?) is a whitewash. We will certainly cheer for the Twins, but the fans deserved better.

TheLeviathan
02-12-2013, 06:43 AM
There were numerous other reports out there saying the Twins were shopping Willingham, but were waiting for the right price, just like the numerous reports that said they were shopping Span and waiting for the right price, the reality is there is no huge rush to trade Willingham at this point anyways,

Right, so going back to what I said - we only know it "wasn't the right price" - we have no idea what prices were being offered. The problem with this thinking is that Willingham is only going to get less valuable in all likelihood. He might maintain his value, but it's quite unlikely. A rebuilding team with this many OF options shouldn't be concerned with moving an aging player like Willingham. It's a mistake to not be aggressive about shopping him. I fear we are far, far away from being aggressive about it.

If it's so obvious we are rebuilding, why is the OF in the twilight of his career coming off a career year still on this team? That's the mistake being pointed out and you really don't have an answer for that short of "I trust Ryan". That's fine, but that's all it is. It's a valid point to see not moving him as a mistake.

mike wants wins
02-12-2013, 07:53 AM
Easy for Jim to write....he is not a fan. He does not pay for tickets. The Twins had money to spend, and refused to do so. They also refused to do so when Ryan was the GM before. I do not think this is a coincidence. This is who Ryan is. I feel had for Mauer. At least Morneau can leave after this year.

birdwatcher
02-12-2013, 07:54 AM
Souhan never seems to miss an opportunity to act like a snarky little brat. I doubt he has much conviction about what he wrote. It was probably much more about taking a pot shot at bloggers and us commenters, the noveau fans. Just another exercise in triteness by Souhan for the most part.

The thread sort of digressed into a discussion (again) about rebuilding, and whether they're going about it in the "right way". My thought is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I don't think any of us noveau fans believe they're NOT rebuilding.

Baseball can't happen soon enough, my friends. We're rehashing three themes constantly:

1. Are they rebuilding the right way?
2. Did they lie to us?
3. Are we entitled to more?

In his snarky way, I think Souhan was taking his biggest pot shot at those who constantly bitch about the second two points, not the first. As much as I dislike Souhan, I can fully understand this.

Let's play ball.

Brock Beauchamp
02-12-2013, 07:57 AM
You're being pretty assumptious that the guys you mention would receive maximum value this offseason. All those guys can still be traded.

I'm not saying they should be traded but if this is the course the franchise is taking, they should have been publicly available. I understand that trades don't happen overnight but there is plenty of talent to shop on this roster if the team is planning a full rebuild.

And if they're not planning a full rebuild, they should have spent some money. That's my issue with this offseason. They're straddling the fence instead of committing to one course of action.

Brock Beauchamp
02-12-2013, 08:01 AM
Wow Brock, never thought I'd see you join the ranks of the mouth breathers crew on this site but you just gave it a good shot. Carroll has no trade value and is much better then any internal option, they actively shopped Willingham and didn't get any good offers, I wouldn't be shocked if he was traded later this year and plus, the twins can compete in 2014 when he is still under contract. Perkins is still young and could be a big piece moving forward, unless you wanna go out and overpay for a closer when the Twins do compete again.

iMO the only terrible decision made this off season was giving Corrieia the 2nd year. But at least that is only 5 mil

Yes, Dave. I'm a "mouth breather" by stating that the team should either try to win (within reason) by spending some money on the free agent market or they should blow up the roster and liquidate players. It wouldn't have taken much to pick up quality FAs. Skip Correia, pick up Saunders and Marcum instead, then pick up a mediocre middle infielder. All of that would have cost a grand total of $15m. I'm not asking for the world. I'm asking that the team not try to shovel crap down our throats and expect us to appreciate the gesture.

And I saw absolutely zero evidence that Willingham was shopped this offseason.

Brock Beauchamp
02-12-2013, 08:06 AM
Nov 9th MLB trade rumors:

The Twins might not receive much more than a No. 4 starter in exchange for Josh Willingham (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo03.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com), an AL executive tells Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN Twin Cities Radio (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_If_Twins_trade_Willingham_the_return_might_ be_underwhelming110812). "There's no doubt Josh has a very good contract, but I really doubt a team would trade a viable starting pitcher for a guy with a strong bat but who is limited defensively," the executive said. "It's a lot easier to find a left-field or DH-type than to trade a good starting pitcher for one and then have to backfill the rotation spot." The 33-year-old Willingham is owed $14MM through 2014 and posted an .890 OPS last season, but another AL executive says Denard Span (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spande01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) is a better trade chip for Minnesota.
Read more at Josh Willingham Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/josh_willingham/#dALxYjoLTW6RWYSF.99)



That was before Span was traded. It's pretty obvious that once Revere and Span were gone, any chance of trading Willingham was off the table (if it wasn't off the table from the get-go). My point is that if the team isn't going to spend even a moderate amount of money on the FA market, the front office should put everyone on the trade block.

I don't even mind that Willingham wasn't traded. My point is that they didn't try. It's very possible that nobody want Willingham right now. That's understandable, given his breakout (and probably career) season in 2012. But unless you're going to make a legitimate attempt to build a decent roster, everybody should be available.

jokin
02-12-2013, 03:16 PM
Yes, Dave. I'm a "mouth breather" by stating that the team should either try to win (within reason) by spending some money on the free agent market or they should blow up the roster and liquidate players. It wouldn't have taken much to pick up quality FAs. Skip Correia, pick up Saunders and Marcum instead, then pick up a mediocre middle infielder. All of that would have cost a grand total of $15m. I'm not asking for the world. I'm asking that the team not try to shovel crap down our throats and expect us to appreciate the gesture.

And I saw absolutely zero evidence that Willingham was shopped this offseason.

This somewhat accurately sums up what many of us are saying (between breaths), plus I will add that pretending to "fire" members of the coaching staff, retaining marginal-to-no-talent players year-after-year, and offering Butera anything other than a minor league contract seemed a blatant disregard of the fans.

ashburyjohn
02-12-2013, 04:11 PM
It's very possible that nobody want Willingham right now. That's understandable, given his breakout (and probably career) season in 2012.

And that he did not play in any of the final 8 games due to a bum shoulder. That's more than just a day-to-day situation, and he might have been DL'ed if it wasn't September. If I'm another team's GM I wait-and-see until mid-March at earliest.