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John Bonnes
01-31-2013, 05:12 PM
The Strib's Howard Sinker does a thought-by-though breakdown of the Twins. He's a little crabby:

Section 219: Breaking down the Twins (because someone asked me to do that) | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/189222891.html)


On a yearly basis, many have written about how the promising youngsters in the Royals organization were finally going to end their more than quarter-century of postseason futility. Ever year, in talking about the upcoming season, I've been among those saying the Royals were going nowhere. Dermal (Dee) Brown? Luke Hochevar? Eric Hosmer? It's all well and good to hold out hope that reinforcements will soon turn around the Twins' fortunes. But I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime, I'll try to use the phrase "Kansas City North" in describing the Twins as infrequently as possible.

TheLeviathan
01-31-2013, 05:18 PM
Can LoganJones ignore him...that's what I'm on the edge of my seat about.

ThePuck
01-31-2013, 05:20 PM
Can LoganJones ignore him...that's what I'm on the edge of my seat about.

Howard must not be too self aware :-)

ThePuck
01-31-2013, 05:22 PM
I love reading Howard Sinker's stuff.

raindog
01-31-2013, 05:49 PM
Yep, he's definitely right about this year. The Twins will be just as terrible as the past two seasons. I'm still pretty optimistic about the youngsters though.

edavis0308
01-31-2013, 06:09 PM
Yep, he's definitely right about this year. The Twins will be just as terrible as the past two seasons. I'm still pretty optimistic about the youngsters though.

No! Sunshine and rainbows! Pots o gold and unicorns! No accepting the fact this currently constructed team has a snowball's chance in Hell of making the playoffs!!

it is a good article though, I agree.

Highabove
01-31-2013, 07:14 PM
The Twins owe their Fans a much improved product. They gave very little effort in making it so.

Just two years ago, the Twins sold more tickets then twenty six other Teams.

How quickly they forget.

mike wants wins
01-31-2013, 07:15 PM
Dude has always been Mr negative and clearly is not a real fan. /s

glunn
01-31-2013, 08:24 PM
I am still holding on to a faint hope that the Twins will surprise everyone.

jokin
01-31-2013, 08:49 PM
I am still holding on to a faint hope that the Twins will surprise everyone.

Give it time, you are currently where Howard was just about two months ago...and birdwatcher was just a month ago...and where ol'nurse will be a month from now....

glunn
02-01-2013, 02:04 AM
Give it time, you are currently where Howard was just about two months ago...and birdwatcher was just a month ago...and where ol'nurse will be a month from now....

I concede that you are probably correct, but I am trying to enjoy the postseason for as long as possible until reality takes over in April. I am still harboring fantasies of Deduno winning game 7 of the 2013 World Series by striking out 10+ Dodgers.

jokin
02-01-2013, 02:16 AM
I concede that you are probably correct, but I am trying to enjoy the postseason for as long as possible until reality takes over in April. I am still harboring fantasies of Deduno winning game 7 of the 2013 World Series by striking out 10+ Dodgers.

That's what the apologists doniti't seem to register. Baseball does have oodles of possible outcomes along the Bell Curve. I'm sure you've watched as much baseball as me, and every single year, there are multiple instances of witnessing events that you've never seen before. Deduno could easily be a one-year wonder who captures lightning in a bottle. RA Dickey was an afterthought to virtually the entire cast of MLB teams back in 2009 and now he's a Cy Young winner in his late 30s. If Deduno or Hendriks or, even Hermsen, for heaven' sake, somehow caught fire, the rankest cynics on TD would love to be completely wrong and they would be pulling just as hard as the apologists for a Worst-to-First run like 90-91.

crarko
02-01-2013, 08:24 AM
Who here remembers 1982, and the surrounding years? Then you've seen this all before, and lived to tell the tale.

panolo
02-01-2013, 10:11 AM
I had season tickets in the 90's when they were terrible and I will have season tickets again this year even though they are going to be terrible. Even though we won't be competitive there are still many things I look forward to watching and see develop. And if by some stroke of luck we do compete this year than it's a bonus for me.

deanlambrecht
02-01-2013, 10:17 AM
I used to love reading Howard's articles and analysis. Not so much anymore. It's one thing to be unhappy about the state of the team. It's quite another to be bitter about it and draw a salary for putting that bitterness into print. One need not expect unicorns and rainbows in order to write thorough and personalized-yet-objective analysis about the strengths and opportunities of the ballclub, which is what the TwinsDaily chief writers demonstrate day in and day out. (And it's why this site is my go-to for information about the team - I've given up almost completely on the Strib).

twinsnorth49
02-01-2013, 10:26 AM
I used to love reading Howard's articles and analysis. Not so much anymore. It's one thing to be unhappy about the state of the team. It's quite another to be bitter about it and draw a salary for putting that bitterness into print. One need not expect unicorns and rainbows in order to write thorough and personalized-yet-objective analysis about the strengths and opportunities of the ballclub, which is what the TwinsDaily chief writers demonstrate day in and day out. (And it's why this site is my go-to for information about the team - I've given up almost completely on the Strib).

Where was he not objective? I think you are expecting Unicorns because nothing Howard wrote is unobjective bitterness, it's the truth.

ThePuck
02-01-2013, 10:40 AM
I used to love reading Howard's articles and analysis. Not so much anymore. It's one thing to be unhappy about the state of the team. It's quite another to be bitter about it and draw a salary for putting that bitterness into print. One need not expect unicorns and rainbows in order to write thorough and personalized-yet-objective analysis about the strengths and opportunities of the ballclub, which is what the TwinsDaily chief writers demonstrate day in and day out. (And it's why this site is my go-to for information about the team - I've given up almost completely on the Strib).

'Startribune.com digital sports editor Howard Sinker used to cover the Twins and now shares season tickets with friends in Section 219 of Target Field. He blogs about baseball from the perspective of a long-time fan who loves the game, doesn’t always believe the hype and likes hearing what others think.'

Winston Smith
02-01-2013, 10:48 AM
In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism. (http://twinsdaily.com/quotes/quotes/s/spirotagn162091.html)
Spiro T. Agnew (http://twinsdaily.com/quotes/quotes/s/spirotagn162091.html)

Good job Howard staying in the long line of nattering nabobs! That is meant to be a compliment.

LimestoneBaggy
02-01-2013, 11:02 AM
This team has hope, but it's a fair assessment to be upset (from a fan's perspective) about some decisions and what the fan base was fed. I think this team has a chance to contend, with a bunch of breaks, but it depends upon a lot of good breaks and statistical breaks (or suprise performances). It can be done, much like proclaiming "So you're saying there's a chance?"

Go Glunn/Go Twins!

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 11:29 AM
Give it time, you are currently where Howard was just about two months ago...and birdwatcher was just a month ago...and where ol'nurse will be a month from now....

Apparently, being more optimistic than the insufferable jokin means one is an "apologist". Even when, unlike jokin, one makes his case citing actual facts and logic rather than a bunch of blather that really isn't very clever.

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 11:44 AM
As a fan Howard is right on. The Twins stink because the F.O. wants them too. The fans have no say and ownership doesn't care.

LoganJones
02-01-2013, 11:55 AM
Lots of 'boo-hoo' in that article. There is seriously no point to following something that makes you miserable. None. Then again, the poor guy does still work for a newspaper, and the Twins are a big part of his job, so I imagine his life is pretty well full of gloom and doom all day. Spending your days on the constant edge of finding out this is the week that the powers that be have decided you're out of work would turn anyone into a bitter person.

Howard's major logical failing, along with all the people who seem to enjoy baseball doomsday prophecy, is that uncertainty does not predict failure. Past performance does not predict future results. The evidence currently suggests the 2013 Minnesota Twins will not win many of those 42 'difference maker' games, and thus this season will be yet another disappointment.

Thing is, 29 teams every year ultimately have disappointing seasons. Fan bases all over the country have had to live with much more 'disappointment' than we. Yet with two whole down seasons behind us and staring at what might (ok, probably will) be another one, people are crying like babies. It's almost as though it's been 20 years since the team has had a winning record. You'd think that our top player signed with a division rival, and another top player was facing a 50 game PED suspension.

Oh the owners are spendthrift misers who just love to make you miserable? They are cheap, no denying it. But with all the head banging you'd think they just traded the whole team to a business buddy in canada for pennies on the dollar. Or that they signed an aging steroid user through age 43 and still owed him more than whole team's annual payrolls.

Everyone has misfortune in baseball, but in the end it's a drama, that gets better when things you don't expect happen. By all means be miserable about it if that's how you roll. Feel entitled to howl at the ownership because they didn't sign this free agent or spend x amount of money. You have that right if you buy anything in Hennepin County. I'm not going to tell you you can't. I am going to disagree with you, though.

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 11:59 AM
Here's why I believe Howard should be slightly more optimistic:


1. The team'll probably go something like 78-85, but that means that, game to game, we'll have a better chance to witness a victory. Now, that's not good enough for some, and that's understandable. Most of us are quite tolerant of each other's thinking. But for me and many others, that improvement would be meaningful. Now, it may not happen. OK, jokin? You can be pessimistic. It's OK. Just try not to be snotty and mean about it.

2. The team will be more fun to watch.

To back up my first point:

1. Anything is better than last year, including and especially the starting pitching, which, in my opinion, may be just a tad better than what the consensus believes. I base that on the health of Gibson and Pelfry and the expectation that Diamond, Hendriks, and Worley all come to work healthy. Florimon and Dozier will be decent up the middle. Hicks will be OK at the plate and stellar in center. Parmelee will be better defensively than many people think, in line with his past history in right field. Morneau appears to be healthy, as does everyone else. Plouffe is more likely to improve than not, defensively especially. Gardy can't possibly manage as poorly as he did last year. He had a bad year, like many players. I anticipate better energy from the field staff.

2. Hicks, Arcia, Gibson, a healthy Morneau, an improved Hendriks, better defense overall, intrigue at the trade deadline, maybe some nice surprises by guys like Benson Dozier, Robertson, and then, so much to watch for ithe minors.

So, while my expectations are rather modest I believe, I'm going to have fun watching this team play baseball in 2013.

By the way, jokin, what's the opposite of an apologist?

twinsnorth49
02-01-2013, 12:07 PM
The evidence currently suggests the 2013 Minnesota Twins will not win many of those 42 'difference maker' games, and thus this season will be yet another disappointment.

I am going to disagree with you, though.

Isn't that what Howard just pointed out? What exactly are you disagreeing with?

The only bitterness I see is from you, towards anyone who dares try to remotely criticize the direction this team is headed.

We're all Twins fans, get off your sanctimonious high horse and grab a dose of reality.

70charger
02-01-2013, 12:20 PM
As a fan Howard is right on. The Twins stink because the F.O. wants them too. The fans have no say and ownership doesn't care.

The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.

mike wants wins
02-01-2013, 12:21 PM
Questioning the fandom of a season ticket holder who had his wedding at the stadium.....priceless.

LoganJones
02-01-2013, 12:28 PM
Questioning the fandom of a season ticket holder who had his wedding at the stadium.....priceless.
One's fandom is only as valid as they think it is. If someone telling you you're not a true fan raises your hackles, you've got some issues that you need to investigate.

ThePuck
02-01-2013, 12:28 PM
Here's why I believe Howard should be slightly more optimistic:


1. The team'll probably go something like 78-85, but that means that, game to game, we'll have a better chance to witness a victory. Now, that's not good enough for some, and that's understandable. Most of us are quite tolerant of each other's thinking. But for me and many others, that improvement would be meaningful. Now, it may not happen. OK, jokin? You can be pessimistic. It's OK. Just try not to be snotty and mean about it.

2. The team will be more fun to watch.

To back up my first point:

1. Anything is better than last year, including and especially the starting pitching, which, in my opinion, may be just a tad better than what the consensus believes. I base that on the health of Gibson and Pelfry and the expectation that Diamond, Hendriks, and Worley all come to work healthy. Florimon and Dozier will be decent up the middle. Hicks will be OK at the plate and stellar in center. Parmelee will be better defensively than many people think, in line with his past history in right field. Morneau appears to be healthy, as does everyone else. Plouffe is more likely to improve than not, defensively especially. Gardy can't possibly manage as poorly as he did last year. He had a bad year, like many players. I anticipate better energy from the field staff.

2. Hicks, Arcia, Gibson, a healthy Morneau, an improved Hendriks, better defense overall, intrigue at the trade deadline, maybe some nice surprises by guys like Benson Dozier, Robertson, and then, so much to watch for ithe minors.

So, while my expectations are rather modest I believe, I'm going to have fun watching this team play baseball in 2013.

By the way, jokin, what's the opposite of an apologist?

Did we switch to a 163 game season?

LoganJones
02-01-2013, 12:30 PM
The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.
Seriously, man. Why even waste your time directly replying to stuff like that? It's obviously from someone who either is actively saying obnoxious stuff or from someone who can't think things through properly.

twinsnorth49
02-01-2013, 12:34 PM
Did we switch to a 163 game season?

One game playoff to determine who finishes last, the Twins or the Astros.......................KIDDING!!!!!!

ThePuck
02-01-2013, 12:35 PM
One game playoff to determine who finishes last, the Twins or the Astros.......................KIDDING!!!!!!

That'd be hilarious!

twinsnorth49
02-01-2013, 12:38 PM
The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.

Same place they filmed 9/11.

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 12:45 PM
Geez, I write a friggin treatise and get picked apart for my arithmetic. /s

nicksaviking
02-01-2013, 12:49 PM
One's fandom is only as valid as they think it is. If someone telling you you're not a true fan raises your hackles, you've got some issues that you need to investigate.

A true fan loves the team enough to question poor decisions and to demand better when better is attainable soley to establish an enjoable, winning and enduring product. A lackadaisical fan says Que sera, sera. That's the difference between tough love and enabling. How are your hackles?

Bombo Rivera
02-01-2013, 12:55 PM
I had season tickets in the 90's when they were terrible and I will have season tickets again this year even though they are going to be terrible. Even though we won't be competitive there are still many things I look forward to watching and see develop. And if by some stroke of luck we do compete this year than it's a bonus for me.

That is probably the right attitude to have going into this season. But it sure is fun to complain about the seemingly lack of improvement that the teams appears to have this off-season.

Bombo Rivera
02-01-2013, 01:01 PM
Here's why I believe Howard should be slightly more optimistic:


1. The team'll probably go something like 78-85, but that means that, game to game, we'll have a better chance to witness a victory. Now, that's not good enough for some, and that's understandable. Most of us are quite tolerant of each other's thinking. But for me and many others, that improvement would be meaningful. Now, it may not happen. OK, jokin? You can be pessimistic. It's OK. Just try not to be snotty and mean about it.

2. The team will be more fun to watch.

To back up my first point:

1. Anything is better than last year, including and especially the starting pitching, which, in my opinion, may be just a tad better than what the consensus believes. I base that on the health of Gibson and Pelfry and the expectation that Diamond, Hendriks, and Worley all come to work healthy. Florimon and Dozier will be decent up the middle. Hicks will be OK at the plate and stellar in center. Parmelee will be better defensively than many people think, in line with his past history in right field. Morneau appears to be healthy, as does everyone else. Plouffe is more likely to improve than not, defensively especially. Gardy can't possibly manage as poorly as he did last year. He had a bad year, like many players. I anticipate better energy from the field staff.

2. Hicks, Arcia, Gibson, a healthy Morneau, an improved Hendriks, better defense overall, intrigue at the trade deadline, maybe some nice surprises by guys like Benson Dozier, Robertson, and then, so much to watch for ithe minors.

So, while my expectations are rather modest I believe, I'm going to have fun watching this team play baseball in 2013.

By the way, jokin, what's the opposite of an apologist?

I like some/most of your comments. However, Florimon-Dozier up the middle will NOT be decent. I can't think of a worse middle infield combo in all of baseball. Those 2 might set a record for worst WAR in any one season if allowed to play all year.

Blackjack
02-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Posts like these, bickering at each other for being positive or negative, makes me wonder why I even bother reading the comments. I should just stick to reading Seth and some of the other main posters articles and leave it at that!!!

Riverbrian
02-01-2013, 01:14 PM
I like some/most of your comments. However, Florimon-Dozier up the middle will NOT be decent. I can't think of a worse middle infield combo in all of baseball. Those 2 might set a record for worst WAR in any one season if allowed to play all year.

You may be right... You may be wrong... It might be somewhere in between... Personally... I can't wait to find out...

If I think about April really hard... Is there any chance it will get here faster? :)

ThePuck
02-01-2013, 01:39 PM
Geez, I write a friggin treatise and get picked apart for my arithmetic. /s

I'm sorry, I forgot to put a smiley. I was just kidding.

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 03:37 PM
Dude has always been Mr negative and clearly is not a real fan. /s

why?

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 03:41 PM
That's what the apologists doniti't seem to register. Baseball does have oodles of possible outcomes along the Bell Curve. I'm sure you've watched as much baseball as me, and every single year, there are multiple instances of witnessing events that you've never seen before. Deduno could easily be a one-year wonder who captures lightning in a bottle. RA Dickey was an afterthought to virtually the entire cast of MLB teams back in 2009 and now he's a Cy Young winner in his late 30s. If Deduno or Hendriks or, even Hermsen, for heaven' sake, somehow caught fire, the rankest cynics on TD would love to be completely wrong and they would be pulling just as hard as the apologists for a Worst-to-First run like 90-91.

Come April 1st, i will keep the makings of a crow sandwich handy, i happy last year to admitt that lil Ben was better then i thought...
Im always happy to be wrong about twins players i think are worthless....With that in mind , im hoping to be wrong about Correia, Butrea,Robertson,florimon and Blackburn this year

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 03:45 PM
The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad. You say sabotaging. I say don't care, maybe they care more about the 30M in the pockets and another high draft pick. It's all about a bright future but pay the price now. Every day is a bad day when Twins lose and a happy one when they win for me. Hope you have a good day!

JB_Iowa
02-01-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm bookmarking a number of threads to reopen in October.

We can all review them to determine who is a real "fan".

Time to quit arguing over how dismal this team is -- or will be -- time for pitchers and catchers to report. Then we can all see whether the optimists were right or whether the "nattering nabobs of negativism" (of which I'm one) should keep nattering.

ashburyjohn
02-01-2013, 03:58 PM
I'm bookmarking a number of threads to reopen in October.... Then we can all see whether the optimists were right or whether the "nattering nabobs of negativism" (of which I'm one) should keep nattering.

If the nabobs are right, a quick revisit at the end of May could be long enough to wait.

TheLeviathan
02-01-2013, 04:02 PM
Lots of 'boo-hoo' in that article. There is seriously no point to following something that makes you miserable.

Yeah....ignore him! That'll show em!

ashburyjohn
02-01-2013, 04:05 PM
Baseball does have oodles of possible outcomes along the Bell Curve. I'm sure you've watched as much baseball as me, and every single year, there are multiple instances of witnessing events that you've never seen before. Deduno could easily be a one-year wonder who captures lightning in a bottle.

The bell curve is shaped the way it is for a reason. Yes, someone will likely be a one-year wonder; the odds that it's specifically Deduno are not so "easily" seen.

Saying Deduno could easily be the one to break out is along the same lines as saying the Twins either will, or won't, win the World Series in 2013, therefore the odds must be 50-50 on either outcome.

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 04:10 PM
Who here remembers 1982, and the surrounding years? Then you've seen this all before, and lived to tell the tale.

Dont mean we have to like it or accept it ....kind of like asking who remembers the flood of 69 or 2011....most remember , but those who do remember dont want it to happen again...=)

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 04:13 PM
This team has hope, but it's a fair assessment to be upset (from a fan's perspective) about some decisions and what the fan base was fed. I think this team has a chance to contend, with a bunch of breaks, but it depends upon a lot of good breaks and statistical breaks (or suprise performances). It can be done, much like proclaiming "So you're saying there's a chance?"

Go Glunn/Go Twins!
i totally agree we need some breaks, Verlander,Miggy fielder,konerko Peavey ,Shields all to break there leggs , then we have a shot..
But probally not a good shot

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 04:16 PM
Here's why I believe Howard should be slightly more optimistic:


1. The team'll probably go something like 78-85, but that means that, game to game, we'll have a better chance to witness a victory. Now, that's not good enough for some, and that's understandable. Most of us are quite tolerant of each other's thinking. But for me and many others, that improvement would be meaningful. Now, it may not happen. OK, jokin? You can be pessimistic. It's OK. Just try not to be snotty and mean about it.

2. The team will be more fun to watch.

To back up my first point:

1. Anything is better than last year, including and especially the starting pitching, which, in my opinion, may be just a tad better than what the consensus believes. I base that on the health of Gibson and Pelfry and the expectation that Diamond, Hendriks, and Worley all come to work healthy. Florimon and Dozier will be decent up the middle. Hicks will be OK at the plate and stellar in center. Parmelee will be better defensively than many people think, in line with his past history in right field. Morneau appears to be healthy, as does everyone else. Plouffe is more likely to improve than not, defensively especially. Gardy can't possibly manage as poorly as he did last year. He had a bad year, like many players. I anticipate better energy from the field staff.

2. Hicks, Arcia, Gibson, a healthy Morneau, an improved Hendriks, better defense overall, intrigue at the trade deadline, maybe some nice surprises by guys like Benson Dozier, Robertson, and then, so much to watch for ithe minors.

So, while my expectations are rather modest I believe, I'm going to have fun watching this team play baseball in 2013.

By the way, jokin, what's the opposite of an apologist?

Pssst dont be a Bogart , pass it =)

snepp
02-01-2013, 04:16 PM
i totally agree we need some breaks, Verlander,Miggy fielder,konerko Peavey ,Shields all to break there leggs , then we have a shot..
But probally not a good shot

Well, the Twins could hire a leg-breaker, but I'm afraid that would push them over budget.

S.
02-01-2013, 04:16 PM
Even though we won't be competitive there are still many things I look forward to watching and see develop. And if by some stroke of luck we do compete this year than it's a bonus for me.
This right here. I'm certainly going to continue to express my discontent when i disagree with the actions or lack thereof of the FO, but at the end of the day i'm still going to be watching and happy for baseball season.

I have a lot of friends who aren't serious fans and they often ask me how I managed to watch or listen to 100-120+ games the last two years. I always tell them that even if it is a terrible loss, there is a high likelihood that some good or entertaining things are gonna happen. Whether it be a sweet hit, a great catch, Nick Punto diving into first base, whatever. And even if it's one of those games where everything goes wrong, it's still baseball and I love baseball.

I think sometimes people on here take some of the arguments too personal...or conversely, make some of the arguments too personal. Yeah, most of us are pretty pissed about the current state of the Twins major league roster, but there is still some good to be had and no reason for so many threads to devolve into shoving matches. I'm guilty as well, to be fair, and I assume a lot of it will die down pretty soon here with spring training and us actually having things to talk about.

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 04:18 PM
"Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw."

johnnydakota
02-01-2013, 04:18 PM
Did we switch to a 163 game season?

163 games? kewl we get to see Blackburn pitch another decent game ,and maybe get a long term contractagain...

mike wants wins
02-01-2013, 05:56 PM
Not sure if the earlier question to me was serious, but /s is short for "everything before this was sarcasm".

jokin
02-01-2013, 06:01 PM
This right here. I'm certainly going to continue to express my discontent when i disagree with the actions or lack thereof of the FO, but at the end of the day i'm still going to be watching and happy for baseball season.

I have a lot of friends who aren't serious fans and they often ask me how I managed to watch or listen to 100-120+ games the last two years. I always tell them that even if it is a terrible loss, there is a high likelihood that some good or entertaining things are gonna happen. Whether it be a sweet hit, a great catch, Nick Punto diving into first base, whatever. And even if it's one of those games where everything goes wrong, it's still baseball and I love baseball.

I think sometimes people on here take some of the arguments too personal...or conversely, make some of the arguments too personal. Yeah, most of us are pretty pissed about the current state of the Twins major league roster, but there is still some good to be had and no reason for so many threads to devolve into shoving matches. I'm guilty as well, to be fair, and I assume a lot of it will die down pretty soon here with spring training and us actually having things to talk about.

I heartily endorse (and resemble) these remarks.

jokin
02-01-2013, 06:11 PM
Apparently, being more optimistic than the insufferable jokin means one is an "apologist". Even when, unlike jokin, one makes his case citing actual facts and logic rather than a bunch of blather that really isn't very clever. 70charger (http://twinsdaily.com/members/70charger.html) likes this (of course he did!)

Apparently, a poster can't even find even one moment for a little levity. It must be sad to be you.

For the record, I have submitted many posts citing actual facts and logic to project optimism when it's warranted- even you would have to admit that the opportunities to post in such a manner have been severely limited the last few years.

To further that thought; I believe it was you who had faith that TR was going to take advantage of his experience and favorable payroll situation to make an offseason fix to the SP staff, similar to the fixes he employed to the RPs and field lineup in the 2011 offseason. You have gone on record on more than one occasion, stating that his efforts haven't met up to your expectations.

panolo
02-01-2013, 06:48 PM
That is probably the right attitude to have going into this season. But it sure is fun to complain about the seemingly lack of improvement that the teams appears to have this off-season.

I guess I look at it a little different. I'm pretty excited about some of the things that are setting up to play out in the next year or two. I was born in the 70's and my first memories were in the early to mid 80's and seeing things like Kirby's infectious smile are drilled into my knoggin. I'm fine with all the moves, or lack there of, that happened this off season. Sure I think they could have done more however I think that it sets things up to get us some of the younger guys to the big leagues sooner and show what they have. When we start winning again it will be because of the home grown talent we cultivated or used to acquire other talent.

Riverbrian
02-01-2013, 07:07 PM
"Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw."

I know that one... "Trees" by Rush... Album Hemispheres 1978... Lyrics by Neil Peart... I didn't even have to Google it.

Back to the discussion.

Riverbrian
02-01-2013, 07:13 PM
The thing I like about Jokin is this:

He gives me things to google cuz I have to trace down a bunch of his references... There is value in that!!! and Jokin I do appreciate it.

one_eyed_jack
02-01-2013, 07:40 PM
I think Howard nails it when he talks about how building for the future is great, but refusing to build a birdge to the future is hard to accept or justify.

The Twins have money to spend. They are in the weakest division in baseball. We may be a ways off from being a legit threat to win it all, but I think another solid starter and a competent middle infielder or two could have given us a shot to hang in the division race for a while with an outside chance to win it if some things broke our way.

But as I look at the roster now, I see a 70-75 win team.

Thrylos
02-01-2013, 07:56 PM
This time of year it is about hope. All teams are tied, every one has the same chance to win the world series. There still is a flicker of hope. Two seasons of miserable performance (cumulatively the second worst back to back season in Twins' history by a single win) plus 21 since the last trophy, tends to make people less hopeful.

And more and more people are having negative outlooks. At least more and more people are trying to look into root causes and try to see why things happen. This is a positive. I think that every single fan should want their team to win every single season. And if their team plainly sucks, they should be upset. And if their sucky team does nothing to improve, blames the last 2 seasons on Jerry and Stelly and the people who drove the team to this condition have no accountability, they should really be wondering about the direction this team is going...

But there is still hope.
Twins Win! (but otherwise TR, and Gardy and Andy and Co have to go)

IdahoPilgrim
02-01-2013, 08:06 PM
Well, the Twins could hire a leg-breaker, but I'm afraid that would push them over budget.

What's Tonya Harding doing these days? She couldn't cost that much.

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 08:09 PM
Pssst dont be a Bogart , pass it =)

Be specific, not snarky, johnny. It'll help you mature.

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 08:15 PM
This time of year it is about hope. All teams are tied, every one has the same chance to win the world series. There still is a flicker of hope. Two seasons of miserable performance (cumulatively the second worst back to back season in Twins' history by a single win) plus 21 since the last trophy, tends to make people less hopeful.

And more and more people are having negative outlooks. At least more and more people are trying to look into root causes and try to see why things happen. This is a positive. I think that every single fan should want their team to win every single season. And if their team plainly sucks, they should be upset. And if their sucky team does nothing to improve, blames the last 2 seasons on Jerry and Stelly and the people who drove the team to this condition have no accountability, they should really be wondering about the direction this team is going...

But there is still hope.
Twins Win! (but otherwise TR, and Gardy and Andy and Co have to go)

Glad to see you've had a complete reversal, thrylos. Just months ago, you described the situation as a glass not half full, but shattered to pieces on the floor. Remember?

Thrylos
02-01-2013, 08:27 PM
Glad to see you've had a complete reversal, thrylos. Just months ago, you described the situation as a glass not half full, but shattered to pieces on the floor. Remember?

I think that you missunderstood me.
I am hopeful. I am always hopeful esp this time of the year.

But

the last 2 seasons were (as I said 3 posts up there) cumulatively the second worst back to back seasons in Twins' history by a single win. Then the cherry on top was blaming those to Jerry and Stelly (also mentioned above). Thus the glass not only half empty but "shattered to pieces".

No reversal at all. Hopefulness for tomorrow and truthful assessment of yesterday (and today) can co-exist...

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 08:34 PM
Apparently, a poster can't even find even one moment for a little levity. It must be sad to be you.

For the record, I have submitted many posts citing actual facts and logic to project optimism when it's warranted- even you would have to admit that the opportunities to post in such a manner have been severely limited the last few years.

To further that thought; I believe it was you who had faith that TR was going to take advantage of his experience and favorable payroll situation to make an offseason fix to the SP staff, similar to the fixes he employed to the RPs and field lineup in the 2011 offseason. You have gone on record on more than one occasion, stating that his efforts haven't met up to your expectations.

Absolutely. I said I thought Ryan should, and probably would, add three SP that equalled or even exceeded the Diamond standard. I predicted one would come by trade (and Worley did) and two via FA (in my uninformed opinion, none of the FA acquisitions are better than Diamond). So, I've expressed my dissappointment, shared by most of us.

So, because it was Pelfry and Correia instead of, say, McCarthy and Marcum, I've tempered my optimism. Are you OK with that, jokin, or do you want to continue to single me (and others) out when you comment in your customary derogatory tone?

No need at all for you to feel sad for me, jokin.

Alex
02-01-2013, 08:35 PM
I think that you missunderstood me.
I am hopeful. I am always hopeful esp this time of the year.

But

the last 2 seasons were (as I said 3 posts up there) cumulatively the second worst back to back seasons in Twins' history by a single win. Then the cherry on the top was blaming those to Jerry and Stelly (also mentioned above). Thus the glass not only half empty but "shattered to pieces".

No reversal at all. Hopefulness for tomorrow and truthful assessment of yesterday (and today) can co-exist...

You reminded me of how I felt this time last season. And while I was still frustrated they cut payroll, I was far more hopeful than I am this season.

The Twins had signed a two excellent hitters, a middle infielder who at least be solid, and Morneau and Mauer likely had to be more productive than they were the previous year. The pitching staff wasn't a big change, but Baker would be back in the rotation and hopefully Liriano could figure things out. Their back end of the rotation signing wasn't all that exciting but it was just the 5th starter. Capps was a frustration on many levels, but there was a back-up plan. Of course, we all know how the starting pitching went, but I had far more hope prior to last season than I do this, even though the team is bound to improve; it's sort of by default.

birdwatcher
02-01-2013, 08:42 PM
When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?

FrodaddyG
02-01-2013, 09:04 PM
When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?
Well, when guys get fired, generally it's because they weren't doing their job. Nobody else's heads rolled but Smith, so we can draw the conclusion that the failures of the the first base and bullpen coaches were the most unforgivable on-field sins from teams that sniffed 100 losses two years running.

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 09:24 PM
Anyone that has ever played baseball know that winning is contagious. So is being a fan. Losing destroys everything, it's unexceptable this year or any year. That is why being a Twins fan I expect the team to win this year, not maybe some year in the distance future I should know 52 years of being a Twins fan, and baseball fan is along time.. You know I will be cheering for every win again this year because it matters to me.

FrodaddyG
02-01-2013, 09:27 PM
Anyone that has ever played baseball know that winning is contagious.
Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement.

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 09:51 PM
Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement. You learn that in little league, winning streaks losing, hitting, slumps, control a frame of mind. I say once you acquired that skill you own it. It's what makes you great.

FrodaddyG
02-01-2013, 10:08 PM
You learn that in little league, winning streaks losing, hitting, slumps, control a frame of mind. I say once you acquired that skill you own it. It's what makes you great.
I've played baseball at every level from T-ball to three years of college ball. I coached everything from T-ball to Legion ball for ten years. I've obsessed over baseball since I could walk, mostly thanks to my grandfather, who played professionally back in the 40's. It's drivel.

Talented teams win, bad teams don't. "Winning is contagious" just another mindless sound byte thrown out to try and sell hope for bad teams, when the actuality is this: winning is symptomatic of talent. I've played for and coached good teams, and I've played for and coached bad teams. Many of them were essentially the same teams, minus the turnover of a few players. When good players leave teams get worse, even if they won before. When good players get added to bad teams, they get better, even when they lost before. That isn't "winning" rubbing off, it's the effect of superior talent doing what it does, which is performing better. Baseball may have less "scheming" than any team sport, due to the mano-a-mano nature of it. No amount of success by the hitters around him will make Drew Butera hit better. Put Butera on the '29 Yankees and he's still one of the worst players ever to be paid to play the game of baseball. To genuinely think otherwise is simply foolish.

Kwak
02-01-2013, 10:41 PM
When this thread reappears between the 2013 and 2014 seasons I wonder how much the comments will change? How many will have changed "sides"? Someone should keep track.

Top Gun
02-01-2013, 10:58 PM
Yes you do need talent, no question about that, but you need team work too. Talent brings team work and everyone better, Bad players just bring bad play and hopelessness. Talented teams don't always win The talent of Kirby Puckett & Jack Morris made everyone play better.

The Wise One
02-01-2013, 11:08 PM
Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement.

As Lombardi, or was it Jery Kramer. said, Winning isn't the only thing but it sure in the hell beats whatever comes in second.

FrodaddyG
02-01-2013, 11:13 PM
Talented teams don't always win The talent of Kirby Puckett & Jack Morris made everyone play better.
So it was Morris' amazing job on the mound that made the Twins play so awesome during game 7 that they needed 10 innings to score one run? Inspiring!!! Contagious!!!

jokin
02-02-2013, 12:37 AM
Absolutely. I said I thought Ryan should, and probably would, add three SP that equalled or even exceeded the Diamond standard. I predicted one would come by trade (and Worley did) and two via FA (in my uninformed opinion, none of the FA acquisitions are better than Diamond). So, I've expressed my dissappointment, shared by most of us.

So, because it was Pelfry and Correia instead of, say, McCarthy and Marcum, I've tempered my optimism. Are you OK with that, jokin, or do you want to continue to single me (and others) out when you comment in your customary derogatory tone?

No need at all for you to feel sad for me, jokin.

Working from the backend of your post to the beginning:

1) Not a "feeling" at all, just an observation.

2) I'm not sure what is derogatory about placing you with the same sentiments as someone with as distinguished a baseball pedigree as Howard Sinker, and qualifies as singling out in a "customary derogatory tone." No need to attack when we've pretty much reached a general consensus on the offseason.

2) We've all shared and expressed our hope and optimism about the early deals and our disappointment in the overall FAIL that was this offseason. The difference is, with no intent of self-back-slapping, there were many of the realists on TD who predicted it would be a FAIL, based on a simple examination of the evidence in how the Twins ownership and FO operated during past events and their most recent actions and statements.

How many kept ranting that "TR won't let this team continue to be a bottom dweller", "trust in Terry to fix the rotation and right the ship", "only an $80-85M payroll in 2013? preposterous! TR would never do that!" ie, in response to the obvious trend that the Twins would continue to cut the payroll and pay lipservice to the concept of "fielding a darn good competitive team"- all this, despite having a future HOFer and a former MVP under contract in a brand new stadium that the paying public was assured meant a new day for the Twins to compete with the big boys? In the meantime, you will continue to attend cocktail parties with the Pohlad's and laugh from on high at the rest of the hoi-polloi who provide(d) the revenue to pay the team and build the stadium.


3) The blame-shifting in the fake-firing-fiasco of Gardy's closest cronies and TR's failure to recognize available talent and value within his own specified paramters for acquisition and his most recent toss under the bus of his ML scouting staff regarding the Correia deal are further evidence that this FO group's time has passed.

johnnydakota
02-02-2013, 12:45 AM
The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.

Agent scott boras has suggested to more then 1 team to tank a season or 2 to improve there team ....
also if you eliminate 33 million in payroll from your team over 2 years without having compitent replacements ready , what do you call it?
Clearing a path way for guys 1-4 years away from joining the big team?

johnnydakota
02-02-2013, 12:50 AM
Be specific, not snarky, johnny. It'll help you mature.

If i mature any more ill be farting dust

jokin
02-02-2013, 12:51 AM
I think Howard nails it when he talks about how building for the future is great, but refusing to build a birdge to the future is hard to accept or justify.

The Twins have money to spend. They are in the weakest division in baseball. We may be a ways off from being a legit threat to win it all, but I think another solid starter and a competent middle infielder or two could have given us a shot to hang in the division race for a while with an outside chance to win it if some things broke our way.

But as I look at the roster now, I see a 70-75 win team.

I'm with you all the way, but I think 75 is the absolute optimistic ceiling. The margin for success is now as thin as it has been in some time. While they likely won't have the complete physical breakdown of 2011, it only takes one key player going down and another having a subpar season and this could easily be another team threatening 100 losses. I think the 17 scheduled games with the Astros, Mets, Marlins and Brewers are the main thing going to sustain hope for 75 wins and prevent the Twins from 100 losses.

johnnydakota
02-02-2013, 12:58 AM
When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?

So they fire the black guy and another guy whos entire job is to answer the phone and tell a pitcher to start warming up?
The pitching coach who has shown a lack of ability to cultivate any thing other then meatball city pitchers, is safe so that
the manager of back to back 95plus loss seasons will feel more comfortable?Personally after the 1st 95 loss season he should have felt very uncomfortable....

jokin
02-02-2013, 01:09 AM
The thing I like about Jokin is this:

He gives me things to google cuz I have to trace down a bunch of his references... There is value in that!!! and Jokin I do appreciate it.

Initial inspiration came from Grand Forks way.

jokin
02-02-2013, 01:15 AM
The bell curve is shaped the way it is for a reason. Yes, someone will likely be a one-year wonder; the odds that it's specifically Deduno are not so "easily" seen.

Saying Deduno could easily be the one to break out is along the same lines as saying the Twins either will, or won't, win the World Series in 2013, therefore the odds must be 50-50 on either outcome.

It's safe to say that both Glunn and I were talking tongue in cheek after midnight. We all "know" that Deduno won't be pitching in the World Series, just sayin' that when optimism still rides high in preseason, that he was just confounding enough in2012 to be eminently qualified to pin down as a one-year lightining in a bottle kind of guy.

Riverbrian
02-02-2013, 06:50 AM
So they fire the black guy and another guy whos entire job is to answer the phone and tell a pitcher to start warming up?
The pitching coach who has shown a lack of ability to cultivate any thing other then meatball city pitchers, is safe so that
the manager of back to back 95plus loss seasons will feel more comfortable?Personally after the 1st 95 loss season he should have felt very uncomfortable....

Who's the Black guy? Do You mean White? :p

Riverbrian
02-02-2013, 06:53 AM
Initial inspiration came from Grand Forks way.

:cool:

one_eyed_jack
02-02-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm with you all the way, but I think 75 is the absolute optimistic ceiling. The margin for success is now as thin as it has been in some time. While they likely won't have the complete physical breakdown of 2011, it only takes one key player going down and another having a subpar season and this could easily be another team threatening 100 losses. I think the 17 scheduled games with the Astros, Mets, Marlins and Brewers are the main thing going to sustain hope for 75 wins and prevent the Twins from 100 losses.


---Yeah, maybe 75 is optimistic, but I expect a bit of an uptick in wins. The way I see it, it's similar to last year's team, but with better starting pitching. Not great, but better.

It's hard to overstate how bad the starting pitching was last year. So many nights we were down by 4 or 5 runs before half the fans had settled into their seats. It's really hard to win games that way. So better starting pitching should be good for a few W's.

And I could be totally off on this, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Canadian is poised for a monster comeback year that will make the Twins regret not extending him when they may have been able to do so for a more reasonable price.

Top Gun
02-02-2013, 11:20 AM
Oh, it could have been alot worse without Diamond.

Riverbrian
02-02-2013, 11:31 AM
---Yeah, maybe 75 is optimistic, but I expect a bit of an uptick in wins. The way I see it, it's similar to last year's team, but with better starting pitching. Not great, but better.

It's hard to overstate how bad the starting pitching was last year. So many nights we were down by 4 or 5 runs before half the fans had settled into their seats. It's really hard to win games that way. So better starting pitching should be good for a few W's.

And I could be totally off on this, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Canadian is poised for a monster comeback year that will make the Twins regret not extending him when they may have been able to do so for a more reasonable price.


That's the only way that I can see it... I'm not blind to all the concerns that many of us have. I seriously wouldn't be opposed to placing a big question mark somewhere in the team logo this year because of all the questions marks that we have at this moment in time.

My expectations are measured in my opinion. I'm not going to declare the Twins pitching staff on par with the rest of the league. I simply expect that it will be better through strength in numbers... Or at least Mediocre through Numbers.

As long as Gardy doesn't trot a struggling pitcher out there time and time again waiting for improvement from the struggler.

If the team is serious about turning to the next pitching option instead... If a goal of average pitching can be produced in 2013 by avoiding the really bad pitcher.

The games will be closer... The daily battles will be tighter and then we get a chance to find out what everybody else can do. If the team is fighting for wins instead of the air getting taken out of the balloon early in the game. We will begin to know who can help us and who can't going forward.

"To believe is to be strong... Doubt Cramps Energy... Belief is Power" Last year's pitching staff left the team doubting way too often last year.

This is how the Twins can shock us all... even me. I'm not betting on a winning record. I'm just hoping for progress and a feeling... even if it's a small tiny little feeling that we can win on any given night because without that feeling... It will be a long year because "Doubt Cramps Energy".

I simply choose to believe that just average pitching could have a big effect on the outcomes of our squad. Not looking for a WS Title this year... Just improvement and a reason for the players to compete because it's 4-4 in 8th inning instead of 6 to 1 in the 4th.

Willihammer
02-02-2013, 11:50 AM
I'm just hoping Gardy can get his his horses through ST without losing anyone. It has been cruel to this team in recent years.

one_eyed_jack
02-02-2013, 12:17 PM
That's the only way that I can see it... I'm not blind to all the concerns that many of us have. I seriously wouldn't be opposed to placing a big question mark somewhere in the team logo this year because of all the questions marks that we have at this moment in time.

My expectations are measured in my opinion. I'm not going to declare the Twins pitching staff on par with the rest of the league. I simply expect that it will be better through strength in numbers... Or at least Mediocre through Numbers.

As long as Gardy doesn't trot a struggling pitcher out there time and time again waiting for improvement from the struggler.

If the team is serious about turning to the next pitching option instead... If a goal of average pitching can be produced in 2013 by avoiding the really bad pitcher.

The games will be closer... The daily battles will be tighter and then we get a chance to find out what everybody else can do. If the team is fighting for wins instead of the air getting taken out of the balloon early in the game. We will begin to know who can help us and who can't going forward.

"To believe is to be strong... Doubt Cramps Energy... Belief is Power" Last year's pitching staff left the team doubting way too often last year.

This is how the Twins can shock us all... even me. I'm not betting on a winning record. I'm just hoping for progress and a feeling... even if it's a small tiny little feeling that we can win on any given night because without that feeling... It will be a long year because "Doubt Cramps Energy".

I simply choose to believe that just average pitching could have a big effect on the outcomes of our squad. Not looking for a WS Title this year... Just improvement and a reason for the players to compete because it's 4-4 in 8th inning instead of 6 to 1 in the 4th.

---Yeah when you're starting pitching is that bad, it makes everything more difficult. It burns out your bullpen. It keeps your defense on the field for long stretches. (God I remember some innings that just seemed interminable last year.) And the offense feels like they've got to put up 8 runs every night. So hopefully better starting pitching will ease things up on everyone. I'm still not terribly optimistic about this team, but like you said, it could at least mean more competitive games. I think we'll probably come out on the wrong side of a lot of those, but it's better than the game being over by the 5th inning.

Nick Nelson
02-02-2013, 12:44 PM
I think fans tend to get overly accustomed to a certain vibe and lose their perspective.

In the 2010-2011 offseason the Twins were coming off three straight winning seasons. I remember disliking many of their moves and expressing a foreboding feeling about the coming year. I was constantly accused of being overly negative for no reason. And even my most pessimistic premonitions fell short of what actually took place.

The last two years have been as bad as can be. Assumptions are that experiments will go poorly and injuries will pile up. That's reflected in Howard's tone, which is understandable.

But the Twins have two former MVPs, under 32, as healthy as they've been in years, and a bunch of potentially solid pieces around them. It's just not that outlandish to think the pitching could be around average and this team could hang around .500, which would make it an interesting and (IMO) satisfying season. All they need is some good breaks and, while we haven't seen many of those the past couple years, they do happen. Look at the 10 years prior.

one_eyed_jack
02-02-2013, 06:30 PM
Well Nick, as someone who spends his winters following the Timberwolves, I'd sure as hell like to see some good breaks for the Twins in 2013. Because this T-Wolves season, so filled with early promise, has been one bad break after another. It's been maddening to watch.

I don't think you're wrong about being able to hang around .500. But I feel like another decent arm and a solid middle infielder would have increased our ceiling from '.500 team' to 'outside division threat', and it's frustrating that the team couldn't or wouldn't figure out a way to make that happen. Yes, the rotation is better and you've got a couple of studs in the lineup, but there's too many question marks entering the season for me to be too optimistic.

At least at this point. It's still to early and too damn cold. I'll be more in the hope-springs-enternal mode as the ice starts to melt and opening days is in sight.

Kobs
02-03-2013, 01:06 AM
a bunch of potentially solid pieces around them

Who?