PDA

View Full Version : Souhan: Ryan's Future Might Be Tied To Gardenhire's



John Bonnes
01-28-2013, 11:56 AM
Souhan: Ryan sees himself, manager in same boat | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/188615461.html?refer=y)


Ryan could fire Gardenhire this season. Sunday, he seemed to be hinting that he won't. One reading of Ryan's comments is this: Either he and Gardenhire will turn the Twins around together over the next couple of years, or they'll leave the organization joined at the hip.


I wouldn't have thought this was the case at the beginning of the offseason, but after this offseason, it might be. It's certainly not fair to judge Gardy give the team that Ryan has assembled. And given that he had money and didn't use it, the talent level on this team falls squarely on Ryan's shoulders.

Winston Smith
01-28-2013, 12:05 PM
This was from Ryan in the Mackey story;

" We think we have a pretty good lineup one through nine, so I can tell you our expectations are to compete and to contend."

This would tell me that Ryan feels he has done his job and now it's up to Gardy to deliver!

Badsmerf
01-28-2013, 12:21 PM
The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.

Boom Boom
01-28-2013, 12:30 PM
Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but it sounds like Gardy and Ryan will decide when they leave, and nobody else is going to tell them.

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 12:34 PM
This was from Ryan in the Mackey story;

" We think we have a pretty good lineup one through nine, so I can tell you our expectations are to compete and to contend."

This would tell me that Ryan feels he has done his job and now it's up to Gardy to deliver!

I wonder if Ryan's office is padded?

mnfanforlife
01-28-2013, 12:40 PM
I would have to agree with the article. Gardy may be around in 2014. Heck, he may even get a shot at managing Sano? The Twins will lose 85 games next year, but not their manager.

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 12:58 PM
The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.

Man, posts like this drive me nuts. Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once). Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league. In fact, since he became our manager, we've had the youngest lineup 3 times, 2nd youngest 3 times, 3rd youngest 3 times and only one season where they weren't among the 5 youngest lineups in baseball. He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short. (cue paranoid Machiavellian Gardy theories now). The 5 teams that the Twins have lost to in the 1st round have averaged 101 wins/season but let's act like the 86 win Twins team should've beaten those Yankees.

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 01:01 PM
I don't think Gardy is the problem but I think he's also respected enough around the league that I could see him leaving the Twins after the year to manage somewhere else. I don't think that will happen and think it's more likely that the Twins extend him, but I could see him going to a NL team.

nicksaviking
01-28-2013, 01:07 PM
I've never been much of a Gardenhire appologist, but I hope he and Ryan are not joined at the hip, simply because when this awful club blows up, Ryan needs to be the first to go.

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I've never been much of a Gardenhire appologist, but I hope he and Ryan are not joined at the hip, simply because when this awful club blows up, Ryan needs to be the first to go.

I haven't been a Gardy supporter since around August 2007. Coincidentally, Ryan lost me in 2007 as well, though earlier.

kirbyelway
01-28-2013, 01:12 PM
The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.

LOL, do you really believe what you just posted? The only thing you said that made any sense was the handling of young players. I do think he needs a little help with young players and their ups and downs. People throw Drew Butera in their like he is an everday player, when the truth is he batted a little over 100 times last year.

mnfanforlife
01-28-2013, 01:14 PM
Coaching Jobs are not meant to be secure. But this job has been one of the most secure in baseball since TK started way back when

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 01:17 PM
Quick question...in today's day and age, if the Red Sox, Angels or Yanks manager led his team to 12 straight playoff losses, regardless of the opponent, would that manager stay the manager, or would he be canned?

mnfanforlife
01-28-2013, 01:21 PM
Oh! Pick me! I know this one!

Kwak
01-28-2013, 01:23 PM
My take on the article is different--Gardenhire will be tendered another contract. Ryan is guiding the team under a management-approved plan and Gardenhire is Ryan's guy--and always was! Back in the days (2001) when Kelly was to replaced the "discussion" was between Gardenhire and Ryan. I believe Gardenhire pledged heart, mind, body, sole, and baseball philosophy to Ryan to get the job. Molitor didn't (plus he had the BB creds to "disagree" with Ryan)--so Buh-bye to Molitor. No one ever accused the Twins of ignoring loyalty to the boss as a praise-worthy quality. Some heads had to be "put-in-a-basket" after last season, so a contract extention was not practicable. But anything signifying improvement, or turnaround can (and will) be used to justify tendering another contract to Gardenhire. This statement by Ryan is termed "foreshadowing" and serves to refute any who might claim "Deux es Machina" when something "unexpected" occurs in the conclusion.

S.
01-28-2013, 01:23 PM
If they weren't canned after those 12 straight playoff losses, the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 01:26 PM
If they weren't canned after those 12 straight playoff losses, the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.

It was a trick question, the managers of those teams would have never even reached 12 straight playoff losses before they were canned :-)

And you are definitely right about 'the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.'

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 01:27 PM
Quick question...in today's day and age, if the Red Sox, Angels or Yanks manager led his team to 12 straight playoff losses, regardless of the opponent, would that manager stay the manager, or would he be canned?

Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 01:27 PM
Oh! Pick me! I know this one!

ah man, didn't see your post before I gave the answer...sorry buddy :-)

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 01:31 PM
Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?

No, I'm comparing playoff results...you wanna give them a pass for losing 12 straight cause of payroll issues, cool...good on ya...but the team managed 94 wins with a payroll under 100M...and couldn't scrap out even one playoff win. Other teams have gotten to the second round and even into the W Series with a lower payroll than ours...

and heck, it could easily apply to ANY team, especially when you throw that in with consecutive seasons with at least 95 losses.

MLB record for consecutive playoff losses is 13.

2006 we have the MVP, the batting champ, the CY Young winner, HR hitting and gold glove wearing CF, a top 3 closer, Cuddy knocking in 100 RBI...and we get swept by Oakland.

jokin
01-28-2013, 01:34 PM
Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?

Are you really as obtuse as oldnurse? Really?

greengoblinrulz
01-28-2013, 01:53 PM
This is a 90 loss team IMO & if im right & Gardy gets a new contract.....fans that are left will revolt

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 02:00 PM
No, I'm comparing playoff results...you wanna give them a pass for losing 12 straight cause of payroll issues, cool...good on ya...but the team managed 94 wins with a payroll under 100M...and couldn't scrap out even one playoff win. Other teams have gotten to the second round and even into the W Series with a lower payroll than ours...
.

Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).

TwinsFanInPhilly
01-28-2013, 02:02 PM
Man, posts like this drive me nuts. Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once). Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league. In fact, since he became our manager, we've had the youngest lineup 3 times, 2nd youngest 3 times, 3rd youngest 3 times and only one season where they weren't among the 5 youngest lineups in baseball. He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short. (cue paranoid Machiavellian Gardy theories now). The 5 teams that the Twins have lost to in the 1st round have averaged 101 wins/season but let's act like the 86 win Twins team should've beaten those Yankees.

How can we blindly hate on everything Twins-related if we have to rely on facts? You obviously don't understand us!

mike wants wins
01-28-2013, 02:03 PM
I don't think any of us knows the situation....imo, the most likely is that Ryan has his job until he does not want his job. I do not have a theory one way or the other with Gardenhire.

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 02:03 PM
This is a 90 loss team IMO & if im right & Gardy gets a new contract.....fans that are left will revolt

What if the team is surprisingly competitive to near the break. Like 40-42. And then Ryan trades off Morneau, Perkins and Willingham and the team finishes 34-48 for a 74-90 record? Think they'd blame Gardy?

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 02:22 PM
Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).

Wow.

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:27 PM
Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).

My premise of relative obtuseness was misplaced. You tend to dig far deeper to find your rationalizations (and go glaringly out of your way to obtusely demonstrate your historical blind spots) than olnurse.

nicksaviking
01-28-2013, 02:58 PM
What if the team is surprisingly competitive to near the break. Like 40-42. And then Ryan trades off Morneau, Perkins and Willingham and the team finishes 34-48 for a 74-90 record? Think they'd blame Gardy?

Wouldn't happen. Ryan is way to indecisive. If the Twins somehow have a record like that, Ryan will imply that the Twins will be buyers at the deadline but in fact will do nothing because asking prices will be too high. By the time the trade deadline passes and it is clear the team is out of it, he will have sat on his hands too long and will have moved no vets for prospects.

Willihammer
01-28-2013, 03:07 PM
2002-2010 playoffs
twins
opponents


Runs
75
124




The Twins actual record under Gardy/Jr: 6-18
The Twins Pythagorean record under Gardy/Jr: 7-17

Its probably not Gardy's fault for the Twins playoff failure. Those teams Jr constructed just weren't good enough.

birdwatcher
01-28-2013, 03:18 PM
Man, posts like this drive me nuts. Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once). Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league. In fact, since he became our manager, we've had the youngest lineup 3 times, 2nd youngest 3 times, 3rd youngest 3 times and only one season where they weren't among the 5 youngest lineups in baseball. He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short. (cue paranoid Machiavellian Gardy theories now). The 5 teams that the Twins have lost to in the 1st round have averaged 101 wins/season but let's act like the 86 win Twins team should've beaten those Yankees.

Careful, gunnarthur. There are a few indisputable facts involved in your comments. Not sure that's allowed. Unless they shed Gardy and Ryan in a poor light.

darin617
01-28-2013, 03:19 PM
Hopefully this is true. Nothing like killing 2 birds with 1 stone. We need new blood in this organization. The old Twins way needs to be put out of it's misery.

Every team needs to just have a clean break and start over. 2015 with the right direction could be the time for the Twins to take back the AL Central for many years to come.

birdwatcher
01-28-2013, 03:24 PM
Are you really as obtuse as oldnurse? Really?

Classy comment.

Boom Boom
01-28-2013, 03:27 PM
Careful, gunnarthur. There are a few indisputable facts involved in your comments. Not sure that's allowed. Unless they shed Gardy and Ryan in a poor light.

I missed the part that was positive about Ryan.

gunnarthor
01-28-2013, 03:29 PM
Wouldn't happen. Ryan is way to indecisive. If the Twins somehow have a record like that, Ryan will imply that the Twins will be buyers at the deadline but in fact will do nothing because asking prices will be too high. By the time the trade deadline passes and it is clear the team is out of it, he will have sat on his hands too long and will have moved no vets for prospects.

I'm not so sure. Smith was clearly indecisive in 11. Cuddy might have gotten a nice haul back. So might have Kubel. But Ryan did move Castillo in 07 when the Twins were 54-51 and 7 GB. Didn't go over well with players or fans.

jokin
01-28-2013, 03:45 PM
Careful, gunnarthur. There are very few indisputable facts involved in your comments. Not sure that's allowed. Unless they shed Gardy and Ryan in a poor light.


Fixed it for you, but you're right, gun needs to be more careful in his forgetfully omission-filled apologistic rants.

PseudoSABR
01-28-2013, 03:58 PM
Look, we shouldn't credit Terry Ryan or Ron Gardenhire for winning seasons, but we should hold them accountable for losing seasons and the paltry playoff record. It is obtuse to try to put both the winning and losing into context, because it might work against the board's metanarrative that the Twins don't know what they are doing (and never have).

Optimism is blind; pessimism is clear-eyed.

S.
01-28-2013, 04:15 PM
Or, we could be realistic. I'm pretty sure most of the folks on this board would like nothing more than a Twins team and FO that inspired optimism and confidence, but unfortunately that isn't the position we find ourselves in today. TR and Gardy have done plenty of good over the course of their tenures with the Twins, but at this point it just feels like we're smashing our faces into the same wall and hoping for different results. Clearly our approach to pitching hasn't been working, yet here we are doing the exact same dumpster diving and making excuses for why pitchers wont come here, even though we aren't making any competitive offers. Clearly our MI has been terrible, yet here we are watching them trot out the exact same type (is "bad" a type?) of players year after year.

I can't say I speak for all the pessimists here, but I assume most of us have things we're happy with. The offseason trades for May, Meyer and Worley? I'm happy with all of those, but that is no excuse for our FA moves (and the lack thereof).

Badsmerf
01-28-2013, 08:46 PM
I can't handle it. Too many frustrations in this thread.


Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once).

Lol you took the most facetious part of my post and argued against it. Good times.


Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league

Really!!!??? All the young players like Cuddyer, Kubel, Bartlett, Lohse, Parmelee, could throw in Delmon and Garza for the heck of it. He has a terrible rap with young players. He hasn't been as bad lately, but the Twins have also sucked so he hasn't had the chance to be a dick.


He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short.
First of all, the Twins haven't lost much talent since Gardy took over. Guys that fit your bill: J.J. Hardy, Pierzynski (was pretty good when he left), Bartlett, Garza, Lohse, we could be adding Kubel soon too, luckily they have Perkins or he would be on the list... That isn't incredibly short.


People throw Drew Butera in their like he is an everday player, when the truth is he batted a little over 100 times last year
OK, the year the Twins sign a legit back-up catcher and Butera still finds a way to get 111 AB's. The year before he got 234 AB's and 142 AB's in a year the Twins won 94 games (2-8 the last 10) and got swept in the playoffs.


But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.
The Texas Rangers had a 92m payroll in 2011 and went to the WS. The Twins that year was 112m... in 2010 when the Rangers made the series they had a payroll of 55m, the Twins had 97m. Tampa Bay in 2008 had a 43m payroll. Detroit Tigers had a 82m payroll in 2006 and went to the WS. 2005 Chicago White Sox 75m. Is that enough yet to change your mind? I can keep going with examples if you'd like.


sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed
Ohhhh. So what has changed? The people making the decisions? The organizational philosophies? Pretty sure JR said in a quote that they will continue to do what they have always done. Nothing will change until there is new blood making decisions and changes.

clutterheart
01-28-2013, 09:12 PM
The T-wolves firing of Flip and the Gopher's firing of Mason shows that change for the sake of doing something is no way to run a business.
It can often backfire. Also I enjoy Gardy. In my opinion he is the manager for as long he wants.

But I do think the game has passed Ryan by. I think the money in the game is just too much for his sensibilitties and he is sticking to his internal measuring stick on what a guy should be worth. In my dream scenario it would be Bill Smith who signs Free Agents and negotiates pay. That guy knew how to spend the Pohlad's money.

But the FO would never let him trade again.
Ever.

LastOnePicked
01-28-2013, 09:25 PM
The few cheapshots notwithstanding, I'm enjoying this thread. I haven't been happy with Gardenhire for years, but I've had a hard time putting my finger on why. He seems so different from TK. I once described it as the difference between reason over emotion and emotion over reason. Too me, Gardy's too much heart, and not enough brain. I cannot imagine him leading a team to the WS. And he's worked with a great deal of talent in some of those Central Division titles, to very little result. So, for those who champion Gardy, at least I'm getting a better picture of why -- even if I admit I'm not yet in agreement.

silverslugger
01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
Wouldn't happen. Ryan is way to indecisive. If the Twins somehow have a record like that, Ryan will imply that the Twins will be buyers at the deadline but in fact will do nothing because asking prices will be too high. By the time the trade deadline passes and it is clear the team is out of it, he will have sat on his hands too long and will have moved no vets for prospects.

This!