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Nick Nelson
01-27-2013, 05:53 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1335-What-in-the-Hell-is-a-Pedro-Florimon

jm3319
01-27-2013, 06:46 PM
It's reminders like this that make me glad the NHL came back.

Jim H
01-27-2013, 07:06 PM
I too am surprised that Ryan didn't acquire a shortstop over the winter. It seems that He believes that Florimon or Dozier can fill that job. Clearly Carroll seemed to prove that utility man should be how he is used and there is no indication that Escobar is much more than an utility option. I would be happy if Florimon could provide the kind of superior defense he showed flashes of, but I am a bit doubtful that will be the case.

If the Twins have said, I haven't heard it, but I assume there will a competition between Dozier and Florimon for the shortstop job. If Florimon wins it, Dozier may be slid over to 2nd. But realistically I don't know if either is a major league starting middle infielder.

Dance with Disco Dan
01-27-2013, 07:51 PM
Now that Casilla is gone, Gardy needs a new guy he can bench for a week for making a loose play in the field. Examples must be set in the name of playing the game the right way or TK the Warlock will loose a 100-year curse on the team. Ryan knows this and has offered up Florimon to be soul-crushed in this fashion. Hoping Florimon satiates Gardy's appetite for shaming the physically-talented, Ryan will sneak Hicks and Arcia into the clubhouse. If all works as planned, these players' confidence will be protected and nurtured by the rational acceptance of any fundamental mistakes they might make. Without Florimon as the staked-goat bait, who knows what happens the first time Hicks over-throws a cut off man? Ryan is a smart man and clearly knows what he is doing.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 08:13 PM
25% strikeout rate? Man I didn't think he was THAT anemic on offense..

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 08:22 PM
Notice TR didn't say "he's the type of baseball player" you want at shortstop......sigh.

snepp
01-27-2013, 08:31 PM
Notice TR didn't say "he's the type of baseball player" you want at shortstop......sigh.

At least they accomplished what they set out to do at the position, get more "athletic." That has to count for something.

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 08:42 PM
just another reason to cheer for the front office....
Marcier Izturius could have been added at around 4 million a year ...

drjim
01-27-2013, 11:14 PM
just another reason to cheer for the front office....
Marcier Izturius could have been added at around 4 million a year ...

If that is the best alternative we can come up with I'm not that offended by Terry Ryan not adding a SS.

cmathewson
01-27-2013, 11:37 PM
Anybody can see he's no offensive threat. But that is not why you have shortstops. You have shortstops to turn as many ground balls up the middle and in the hole into outs as possible. And he is the best at this skill we've had in a while. JJ hardy was very good at catching the ball and I lament his unceremonious exit. But, other than him, the Twins have not had a shortstop who could cover as much ground as Florimon since Guzman was 21. He's no star. But he will hold his own at the position. Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. Dozier will hit better, but he's no match for Florimon with the glove, and that is what matters on this team. Anybody who watched the team last year will tell you that.

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 11:56 PM
Anybody can see he's no offensive threat. But that is not why you have shortstops. You have shortstops to turn as many ground balls up the middle and in the hole into outs as possible. And he is the best at this skill we've had in a while. JJ hardy was very good at catching the ball and I lament his unceremonious exit. But, other than him, the Twins have not had a shortstop who could cover as much ground as Florimon since Guzman was 21. He's no star. But he will hold his own at the position. Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. Dozier will hit better, but he's no match for Florimon with the glove, and that is what matters on this team. Anybody who watched the team last year will tell you that.

Most teams that carry a light hitting middle infielder , have enough offense and solid defense . we dont ....

snepp
01-28-2013, 12:10 AM
"At that age" Gagne OPS'd better than a league average shortstop twice already.

Florimon can only fantasize about hitting as well as Gagne did.

Top Gun
01-28-2013, 12:23 AM
Now is the time to let Florimon & Dozier play them selfs off the team for good.

FrodaddyG
01-28-2013, 12:29 AM
Now is the time to let Florimon & Dozier play them selfs off the team for good.
3151
"Hi. I was paid $4M a year by the Twins as recently as 3 seasons ago."

glunn
01-28-2013, 12:40 AM
According to Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1499859-ranking-the-top-players-still-available-this-winter-at-each-position/page/5), the best remaining free agent shortstops are Alex Gonzalez, Ronny Cedeno and Jason Bartlett. Gonzalez sounds risky, but with a high upside. Are any of these guys worth pursuing?

old nurse
01-28-2013, 07:47 AM
Could it be that what was available on the free agent market was not much better than Floriman so there was no need to discuss bringing in competition?

Dance with Disco Dan
01-28-2013, 09:02 AM
Could it be that what was available on the free agent market was not much better than Floriman so there was no need to discuss bringing in competition?


This was my thought. I like to think that Ryan judiciously conserved his cash after determining that the "affordable" free-agent options were not worth the marginal upgrade. It would be easier to think this if a Correia-sized albatross wasn't roosting on his shoulder. But still...

I was hoping the Reds would be in on Span and that we might get Didi Gregorious as part of the deal. Maybe they were and Ryan just liked the Nats offer more. Looking forward to seeing how the Choo/Bruce center-field combo works out. I think the Reds will kick themselves for not giving whatever kicker it took to get Span or Revere.

Boom Boom
01-28-2013, 09:08 AM
I don't see why the Twins couldn't bring in some waiver wire pickups or minor league free agents to compete with Florimon. The Twins shortstop cupboard is barren in the high minors, and it sounds like they're serious about moving Dozier to second base permanently.

twinsnorth49
01-28-2013, 09:13 AM
Nothing about Florimon's game should hint at him getting anywhere close to comfortable that he is a shoo-in SS. At the very least some minor league FA's to at least send the message to him that they're open to the idea of playing someone else, as they should be.

ScottyB
01-28-2013, 09:43 AM
Floriman is a prototypical Twins shortstop - think Jackie Hernanadez, Lenny Feado and Sergio Ferrer, and dare I say Ron Washington (although he hit a little beter).

USAFChief
01-28-2013, 09:44 AM
Anybody can see he's no offensive threat. But that is not why you have shortstops. You have shortstops to turn as many ground balls up the middle and in the hole into outs as possible. And he is the best at this skill we've had in a while. JJ hardy was very good at catching the ball and I lament his unceremonious exit. But, other than him, the Twins have not had a shortstop who could cover as much ground as Florimon since Guzman was 21. He's no star. But he will hold his own at the position. Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. Dozier will hit better, but he's no match for Florimon with the glove, and that is what matters on this team. Anybody who watched the team last year will tell you that. Ah, the old "if everyone else does their job, he doesn't have to hit" gem. Thanks for that, cmat, it's been too long since someone trotted that out. Well played.

Chance
01-28-2013, 09:47 AM
The problem is most note that Dozier would be the starting SS if Florimon can't hold it down. I believe in Dozier as a serviceable major leaguer but feel he is better off at 2B where we also don't have a starter. I can't believe competion for Plouffe was a bigger priority than a middle infielder.

what if Carroll and Florimon or dozier get hurt? You have Escobar and what?

Brock Beauchamp
01-28-2013, 09:50 AM
Anybody can see he's no offensive threat. But that is not why you have shortstops.

Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciaparra, Hanley Ramirez, Elvis Andrus, Jose Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki, et al disagree.

This is not 1986, people. The shortstop position has changed and it's time for Ryan to acknowledge that fundamental shift in the way baseball is played in 2013. The Twins shouldn't try to roll out Greg Gagne simply because it worked in 1987.

Boom Boom
01-28-2013, 10:00 AM
Ah, the old "if everyone else does their job, he doesn't have to hit" gem. Thanks for that, cmat, it's been too long since someone trotted that out. Well played.

I remember all the same things said about Nick Punto... who is a vastly superior player to Florimon.

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 10:20 AM
I remember all the same things said about Nick Punto... who is a vastly superior player to Florimon.

Wow, how bad does someone have top be where PUNTO is a vastly superior player...

nokomismod
01-28-2013, 10:49 AM
Could it be that what was available on the free agent market was not much better than Floriman so there was no need to discuss bringing in competition?

I think this is the reason. Ryan isn't feeling the expectation to win this year. He still has Carrol signed for around $3million and if either Florimon, Dozier, or the other guy can't nail down SS, Carrol will play the majority and they will look to improve the position next offseason when there is more of an expectation to win and maybe better free agents.

Bombo Rivera
01-28-2013, 10:56 AM
Whoever the Twins plug in at these positions will be out-making-machines. Unfortunately I mean with the bat....not with the glove. Can we DH for either of these positions?

nicksaviking
01-28-2013, 11:11 AM
Ah, the old "if everyone else does their job, he doesn't have to hit" gem. Thanks for that, cmat, it's been too long since someone trotted that out. Well played.

Yeah, I know the guys around my office who don't pull their weight are really popular.

Hope no one was hoping for Kelly Johnson to make the decision easier for the middle infield. He signed with those free spending Rays.

Nick Nelson
01-28-2013, 11:40 AM
Anybody can see he's no offensive threat. But that is not why you have shortstops.

Everyone understands that SS is a defensive position and the offensive expectations there are lower. That's why the average production there is lower than most others. But Florimon (like most guys the Twins have trotted out there over the past decade) is well below even that reduced average. Is it that much to ask for a guy who can play defense and at least has a chance to be average with the stick?

ALessKosherScott
01-28-2013, 11:57 AM
Aaah, Xerox Houston Jimenez. You're just a copy of every other Houston Jimenez I've ever booed.

Badsmerf
01-28-2013, 11:58 AM
Another example of JR's inability to run a successful ML team. His moves this offseason look good for the minor league system, but have once again left the ML club bent over with a strap on aimed at them.

mike wants wins
01-28-2013, 12:36 PM
He just did not have the resources to fix all the problems this off-season, so he fixed the pitching this year....next year he will fix the infield....

twinsnorth49
01-28-2013, 12:38 PM
He just did not have the resources to fix all the problems this off-season, so he fixed the pitching this year....next year he will fix the infield....

You're kidding right?...I mean tell me you are...please.

greengoblinrulz
01-28-2013, 01:58 PM
Everyone freaked on Dozier's age but Pedro is older than Bryan.
Part of the reason they are a 90 loss team

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:11 PM
Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciaparra, Hanley Ramirez, Elvis Andrus, Jose Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki, et al disagree.

This is not 1986, people. The shortstop position has changed and it's time for Ryan to acknowledge that fundamental shift in the way baseball is played in 2013. The Twins shouldn't try to roll out Greg Gagne simply because it worked in 1987.

But.... then we couldn't eagerly and expectantly ponder the Cmathweson notion of "the Promise of Florimon"!

From what we saw last season, plus his minor league comps, hardly makes me think he is even up to the 1987 version of a SS in Twinsland.

Florimon minor league slash: .249/.321/.354/.675

Gagne's minor league slash: .259/.333/.406/.739

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:12 PM
Everyone freaked on Dozier's age but Pedro is older than Bryan.
Part of the reason they are a 90 loss team

Temper your enthusiasm, green...

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:15 PM
Yeah, I know the guys around my office who don't pull their weight are really popular.

Hope no one was hoping for Kelly Johnson to make the decision easier for the middle infield. He signed with those free spending Rays.

I saw that and I feel now that Ryan and Pohlad were just mocking the fans at their weekend media appearances.

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:16 PM
Whoever the Twins plug in at these positions will be out-making-machines. Unfortunately I mean with the bat....not with the glove. Can we DH for either of these positions?

Sign Dontrelle Willis and Carlos Zambrano, then it would be a no-brainer.

jokin
01-28-2013, 02:19 PM
I think this is the reason. Ryan isn't feeling the expectation to win this year. He still has Carrol signed for around $3million and if either Florimon, Dozier, or the other guy can't nail down SS, Carrol will play the majority and they will look to improve the position next offseason when there is more of an expectation to win and maybe better free agents.

Why, 2 years of ineptitude wasn't enough?

Don't let Ryan off this easy, there were more than enough options available for upgrade, either by FA or trade.

drjim
01-28-2013, 03:26 PM
People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

drjim
01-28-2013, 03:29 PM
Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter, Nomar Garciaparra, Hanley Ramirez, Elvis Andrus, Jose Reyes, Troy Tulowitzki, et al disagree.

This is not 1986, people. The shortstop position has changed and it's time for Ryan to acknowledge that fundamental shift in the way baseball is played in 2013. The Twins shouldn't try to roll out Greg Gagne simply because it worked in 1987.

It's also not 2003to anymore. There is a serious shortage of high quality SSs in baseball right now. I appreciate you mentioning several hall of famers but those are relatively rare and hard to acquire.

FrodaddyG
01-28-2013, 03:34 PM
It's also not 2003to anymore. There is a serious shortage of high quality SSs in baseball right now. I appreciate you mentioning several hall of famers but those are relatively rare and hard to acquire.
But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

jokin
01-28-2013, 03:37 PM
People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1499859-ranking-the-top-players-still-available-this-winter-at-each-position/page/5)

Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.

jokin
01-28-2013, 03:39 PM
But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

That one still leaves a mark amongst the apologists...:s-instagib:

Nick Nelson
01-28-2013, 03:49 PM
People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."

The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.

drjim
01-28-2013, 03:54 PM
Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1499859-ranking-the-top-players-still-available-this-winter-at-each-position/page/5)

Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.

I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?

drjim
01-28-2013, 03:57 PM
But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!

Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.

jokin
01-28-2013, 03:59 PM
I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?

Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.

FrodaddyG
01-28-2013, 04:05 PM
Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.
No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.

drjim
01-28-2013, 04:07 PM
The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.

I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

drjim
01-28-2013, 04:10 PM
Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.

Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.

jokin
01-28-2013, 04:11 PM
No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.

Yes, but it begs the question of: how are we sure that he isn't in a coma now?

jokin
01-28-2013, 04:12 PM
Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.

Uhhh, you can't be serious.

TheLeviathan
01-28-2013, 04:13 PM
I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

No one expects them to have Tulowitski. It'd be nice, but that isn't the expectation. How about .650 OPS as a starting point? Can't count Carroll either, guy doesn't have the range to be an everyday SS. So the bar being set is pretty damn low and the team is still failing to meet it.

Boom Boom
01-28-2013, 04:13 PM
I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

He didn't say have a solution in place, he said have had a solution in place at some point since 2004. Subtle difference.

drjim
01-28-2013, 04:30 PM
Uhhh, you can't be serious.

Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

Nick Nelson
01-28-2013, 04:34 PM
I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.

Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.

Dance with Disco Dan
01-28-2013, 05:13 PM
Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.

jokin
01-28-2013, 05:21 PM
You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.

The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.

jokin
01-28-2013, 05:23 PM
Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.

This.

And it's scary how much of NN fanboy I'm becoming.

drjim
01-28-2013, 05:26 PM
The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.

Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

jokin
01-28-2013, 05:39 PM
Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?

Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

jokin
01-28-2013, 05:41 PM
Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

lee_the_twins_fan
01-28-2013, 05:57 PM
According to Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1499859-ranking-the-top-players-still-available-this-winter-at-each-position/page/5), the best remaining free agent shortstops are Alex Gonzalez, Ronny Cedeno and Jason Bartlett. Gonzalez sounds risky, but with a high upside. Are any of these guys worth pursuing?

Of the three, I'd rather have Bartlett back. Maybe back in the AL he can find his stroke again.

The other two are not worth pursuing.

I doubt the Twins will go after Bartlett or anyone, though.

USAFChief
01-28-2013, 06:23 PM
People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

Dance with Disco Dan
01-28-2013, 06:33 PM
Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.

That was my conclusion too. The Twins would have to open up the top end of its prospect list for a "Pick any four" type deal to get the Rangers off the idea of flipping Andrus or Profar for young, superstar-level talent like Price or Stanton. There is no individual or combination of Twins major-leaguers that would interest the Rangers in a trade for one of their stud SS. In my estimation, as great as it would be to have a top flight SS, it wouldn't be worth gutting the minor league pipeline. We have too many holes. That is the type of move a franchise makes when it is ready to make a run at the Series.

Dance with Disco Dan
01-28-2013, 06:36 PM
So you say. I said a combo of veterans and prospects.

What combo plate would you offer the Rangers? I can imagine that only Willingham and maybe Perkins would interest them in such a deal. And I think that pair would only save us one top prospect. What do you think might do the trick?

Jim H
01-28-2013, 07:22 PM
"Florimon reminds me of Greg Gagne at that age, who could barely get the bat on the ball, but he could sure get his glove on it. And when he got leather on it, he made outs. That is the promise of Florimon. I'm not saying he will be the next Greg Gagne. But he has a chance to fill the position until Santana or Polanco are ready to take over. " Quote from cmathewson

Florimon doesn't really remind me of Gagne. Gagne was younger and actually showed promise of a good bat while making a lot of errors and not showing the range he later exhibited. There was even talk of moving Gagne to 3B to take advantage of his bat and because some thought he really wasn't a shortstop. Gagne's bat never really developed, although he had his moments and often started the season well but seemed to wear down.

Florimon is quite a bit older than Gagne was as a rookie. Florimon actually may have better tools than Gagne although I doubt if I am a good one to judge that. It just seems that he should be more consistent defensively than he is, since he is already in his mid twenties. I would be happy if settles in as a superior defensive shortstop, and can get over the Mendoza line as a hitter. I am not sure that will happen, however.

The Wise One
01-28-2013, 07:32 PM
Boaggerts, Iglesias (his glove will make you forget Florimon), Marrero (AZ St. 1st round pick, starts in Hi-A, will likely jump to AA or even AAA w/ a good season and a Boaggerts call-up, would have to have been a PTBNL) and they just got Brock Holt besides, who has played plenty of SS (blocked by Pedroia @ 2B). Boaggerts may have been too young for the spotlight in Boston, but he would have been more than ready on the Twins, any of these others are more than ready, today, to offer significant upside in 2013 or 2014 over what the Twins plan to roster this year and next.

Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

drjim
01-28-2013, 07:42 PM
If it's your contention that filling SS is too hard for the current Twins' GM, then can I assume you're also calling for his replacement? Or is "it's too hard" an acceptable excuse in your book?

I'm not making excuses, I'm stating facts. It has difficult to find good SSs, and I was more talking in the realm of what Brock suggested. I will not defend their inability to develop a SS.

2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)
2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)
2008 - SS free agent (Everett)
2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)
2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)
2011 - SS in first round (Michael)
2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

This is the best I could think of resources (high draft pick, trade, international above $750k, free agents, waivers) off the top of my head used in an attempt to acquire SSs in the past 9 years and that doesn't include lower round picks (Dozier) or lower priced international free agents (Santana, Beresford). They have put resources in, I'm not sure why they haven't been able to develop a SS out of this mess (outside of the one year of Hardy).

Trading the only two respectable SSs the team has had since Guzman for minimal return is probably not another feather in the cap of Bill Smith.

drjim
01-28-2013, 07:44 PM
Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

snepp
01-28-2013, 07:52 PM
I would trade Perkins in a heartbeat if it filled SS for several years. I don't think he has that kind of value.

We just need to find another front office that, for reasons that cannot possibly be comprehended, treats the position like a complete after-thought.

edavis0308
01-28-2013, 08:27 PM
Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

Riverbrian
01-28-2013, 08:49 PM
Reportedly Justin Upton couldn't pry Simmons from Atlanta. It took Bauer to acquire Didi.

The Rangers have two young SS's and would not part with either to acquire Justin Upton.

I have no idea what kind of trade it would take to bring in a SS but there appears to be some shortstop hoarding going on.

I suspect the price is gonna be Higher than Cheech and Chong circa 1978.

drjim
01-28-2013, 09:05 PM
Good thing we are contending and can't trade veterans for useful prospects to build for the future.

I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

Brock Beauchamp
01-28-2013, 09:14 PM
2004 - SS in first round (Plouffe)
2005 - two SSs in the second round (Kelly, Thompson), SS free agent (Castro)
2008 - SS free agent (Everett)
2009 - two high priced SSs in international market (Polanco, Sano)
2010 - SS in trade (Hardy), SS in second round (Goodrum), high priced international market (Pimentel)
2011 - SS in first round (Michael)
2012 - SS on waivers (Florimon), SS in trade (Escobar), SS free agent (Carroll)

You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop". Carroll has played the majority of his games at short once in his career. There isn't a scout on planet earth who projected Sano to stay at short. Michael has been called a second bagger by almost everyone who has watched him play. Likewise, Plouffe couldn't hack it and most scouts were unsurprised by it.

Everett is the type of shortstop that makes fans cringe and the front office's collective loins moisten. Unsurprisingly, he tanked. Juan Castro was so bad that we still laugh at his play over half a decade later.

In the "I don't suck" department, what's that leave? Hardy and Polanco? Great. So we have a guy in rookie ball and a guy the team traded away for pocket lint and a cardboard cutout of Rick Vaughn.

edavis0308
01-28-2013, 09:19 PM
Personally I would have tried to buy low on Yunel Escobar but since he's a big meanie then that would have never happened.

It's fairly obvious we don't have the fire power to pull Off a trade for a top shelf SS but... If you're going to be all Smug about things..I'm sure we can trade Morneau or Willingham for a so so guy that has a hell of a lot more upside than Pedro freaking Florimon. I wouldn't advocate such a move Though. Might hurt our chances to win this year.

ThePuck
01-28-2013, 09:28 PM
You're playing pretty fast and loose with the term "shortstop".

There's always a bunch of shortstops drafted. Like 120 or so just last year...as opposed to maybe 50 2Bs. Shortstops often get converted...they may have played SS at whatever school they played before, but they get moved in the minors. They're targeted because of their athleticism. So for anyone to say we were really pushing to fill our shortstop need cause we drafted some and signed some cheap FA shortstops nobody wanted (Everett, Castro) is just grasping for straws. And if they actually believe hat, then they need to point out the pure incompetence of the people signing/drafting them. Either way, it doesn't look good...

It's like the whole thing about how we really addressed pitching cause we drafted so many pitchers...no, we didn't...we didn't draft an unusual amount of pitchers.

TheLeviathan
01-28-2013, 09:32 PM
I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

I'm sorry drjim, but the more you go here the more you are definitionally making excuses.

Whether through the draft, FA, trades, or whatever other means....the team has failed to get a shortstop of any competency for a decade and appear content to have the position waste away. It IS hurting the team and needs to be fixed.

Dance with Disco Dan
01-28-2013, 09:40 PM
I would love to hear what value you think our veterans currently have and how it would remedy the current SS situation (or any other organization weakness).

In my opinion, if we are in for a penny with Span and Revere, we should be in for a pound and move Willingham, too. Signed for two more years at $7 million/per means that he has, by far, the most market value on the MLB roster. I know that Ryan has tickets to sell in 2013 and someone has to produce some runs. That said, Willingham's production will entertain but will not carry the Twins into the range of contention. This is the time to plug our collective noses and move all marketable assets. Willingham is coming off a career year and will not retain the value he has now as we move through next two years.

Remember the fantastic poo poo platter that one-year of Santana brought back? GMs just wont give back much for one year of control for anyone. And given the contracts Shane Victorino and Cody "Who's that?" Ross got this off season, I have to believe that Willingham is considered a deep-discount option worthy of prospects from teams interested in contending. Hello, Yankees? I believe you are short about 90 home runs.

Nick Nelson
01-29-2013, 12:06 AM
I'm sorry drjim, but the more you go here the more you are definitionally making excuses.

Whether through the draft, FA, trades, or whatever other means....the team has failed to get a shortstop of any competency for a decade and appear content to have the position waste away. It IS hurting the team and needs to be fixed.
I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

jokin
01-29-2013, 12:14 AM
Boston signed Drew to a one year deal for a reason, Bogaerts should be ready in 2014. I love how people on this board fantasise about trades that have so little likelyhood of happening. To get a Bogaerts one would have to be giving up a couple top 10 prospects. The belief that any Twins veteran left without a no trade clause or closes games will fetch much this off season is another fantasy. Also like the wish for a player who was in high A ball as a solution for shortstop while complaining of this year's players. The black hole of the Twins will continue.

Comparing Boston to the Twins in terms of Drew is a fool's errand. Boston wants, and needs in the AL East, an immediate infusion of relevancy.

Or a blockbuster trade with Boston drooling all over a Mauer-related deal involved in the mix. Or get one of the other 3 ideas I suggested for much less that you conveniently ignored. Much like the acquisition of Meyer and Mays, the Twins have already half-way acknowledged that 2015 is their rebuilding goal season. Holt is already major league-ready and blocked, the other 2 I mentioned project to 2014 or 2015. Who is in denial here, really?

jokin
01-29-2013, 12:16 AM
I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

In other words, the Twins continuing ad nauseum in their self-imposed comfort zone of Middle Infield Mediocrity.

RodneyKline
01-29-2013, 03:14 AM
I honestly do not understand what Terry Ryan is thinking. I want to support him and his vision but he is doing nothing to help us believe. He has a project at 2B, SS and 3B in the infield and in two of the three outfield positions. He is saying he wants to be competitive but his actions say that he is rebuilding when he has two superstars in their prime.

Everything I have been hearing is that Mauer and Morneau are ready to have great years this year and it will be wasted because he missed the opportunity to surround them with a team that can compete. He has a brand new stadium with two MVPs in their prime and he supports them with a third 90+ loss supporting cast! Any other GM that has two MVPs in their prime would be making sure that they surround them with a World Series caliber team but he chooses to cut payroll.

If he were to go get a quality short stop or second baseman and an ace to anchor the rotation with the $30 million he is down in payroll vs. the first year at Target field and we are competitive with any team in baseball when Mauer and Morneau have a huge year that I bet they have. What a waste! He didn't even try to land Grienke or any of the top starters and I didn't hear any rumors of him talking to any middle infielders. He has improved the farm system but by the time those players can help, then Mauer will be declining and Morneau will be gone. There is no guarantee that any of these farm hands will be the next Mauer or Morneau or the next ace pitcher and even if they are, he will let them go to another team once the get to their prime and/or not surround them with the talent needed to win.

This is just not a smart financial plan in my opinion. He is going to save $30 million or more in payroll and lose three times that in lost revenue at. It will be 30 years or more before they have another new stadium also. He is wasting a huge opportunity to take the Twins to the next level. Having a new stadium and two MVPs is not something that comes around very often and he is blowing it. TR could be a great GM if he could somehow learn to not be such a cheapskate. They will lose so much money this year with a third season in a row where we are the worst team in the AL and it didn't have to be this way. He just needed to think big but I don't think he is capable of thinking big or understanding that you get what you pay for and dumpster diving may net you a couple good surprises but we need about six miracles (no pun intended) to happen to not be in last place again.

drjim
01-29-2013, 08:19 AM
I don't think you two necessarily disagree. He already said that their inability to develop/acquire shortstops has been inexplicable, I think he's just pointing out that this offseason wasn't necessarily the most opportune time to address the situation. And he may be right. Pitching needed to be their highest priority, and the area they concentrated their assets. Short of signing Stephen Drew, they weren't going to be adding a quality shortstop without trading too much away.

That said, I don't understand why they didn't at least bring in a Bartlett type or two to give them some potential options. I'd like to get behind what they see in Florimon, but to me he just looks like another ill-equipped minor-league caliber player that they're putting their faith into, following in the footsteps of Nishioka, Casilla, Dozier and more.

This is a pretty good summary of my position on SS. Im not defending their record or making excuses but trying to understand what they have done and why it has failed. Just saying they have done poorly or saying they have to get someone better isn't that interesting to me.

I'm also not convinced adding slop to the current slop is all that helpful - they already have Carroll for that role. Might as well see what people have. Not expecting much from Florimon but Dozier and/or Escobar could surprise.

Brock Beauchamp
01-29-2013, 08:36 AM
This is a pretty good summary of my position on SS. Im not defending their record or making excuses but trying to understand what they have done and why it has failed. Just saying they have done poorly or saying they have to get someone better isn't that interesting to me.

I'm also not convinced adding slop to the current slop is all that helpful - they already have Carroll for that role. Might as well see what people have. Not expecting much from Florimon but Dozier and/or Escobar could surprise.

To be fair to Ryan, Smith traded the last two legitimate shortstops the team had on the roster (yeah, he acquired one of them but then turned around and gave him away for virtually nothing).

Still, I think this comes down to how this organization is run and what they look for in middle infielders. There's a reason why they continually fail to produce middle infielders who can play above a replacement level. I don't know what that reason is but after 15 years of scuffling at two key positions on the field, it's obvious that they're doing something wrong.

What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

drjim
01-29-2013, 08:44 AM
In my opinion, if we are in for a penny with Span and Revere, we should be in for a pound and move Willingham, too. Signed for two more years at $7 million/per means that he has, by far, the most market value on the MLB roster. I know that Ryan has tickets to sell in 2013 and someone has to produce some runs. That said, Willingham's production will entertain but will not carry the Twins into the range of contention. This is the time to plug our collective noses and move all marketable assets. Willingham is coming off a career year and will not retain the value he has now as we move through next two years.

Remember the fantastic poo poo platter that one-year of Santana brought back? GMs just wont give back much for one year of control for anyone. And given the contracts Shane Victorino and Cody "Who's that?" Ross got this off season, I have to believe that Willingham is considered a deep-discount option worthy of prospects from teams interested in contending. Hello, Yankees? I believe you are short about 90 home runs.

I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason. Probably similar or even less than Span. Teams will be hesitant to acquire him for the same reason we would want to trade him. If he stays healthy and produces close to last year he would probably have more value than he does now. It is reasonable to wait.

Dance with Disco Dan
01-29-2013, 09:30 AM
I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason. Probably similar or even less than Span. Teams will be hesitant to acquire him for the same reason we would want to trade him. If he stays healthy and produces close to last year he would probably have more value than he does now. It is reasonable to wait.

I agree that Willingham's trade value at this point in the off-season is very uncertain. I think they needed to move him before all the free-agent signings started. It is probably best to keep him at this point. I just worry that our oppotunity to maximize his value in trade has passed. Every game he plays for the Twins shortens the below-market control that comprises a good deal of his value. For that reason, I hope that the Twins entertain the idea of trading him at the trade deadline. Unfortunately, Willingham is an injury risk and is almost certain to regress, so we don't know how he will be viewed mid-summer. Hopefully, he comes out banging homers and some contender is looking for outfield power. We'll see.

Boom Boom
01-29-2013, 11:24 AM
To be fair to Ryan, Smith traded the last two legitimate shortstops the team had on the roster (yeah, he acquired one of them but then turned around and gave him away for virtually nothing).

Still, I think this comes down to how this organization is run and what they look for in middle infielders. There's a reason why they continually fail to produce middle infielders who can play above a replacement level. I don't know what that reason is but after 15 years of scuffling at two key positions on the field, it's obvious that they're doing something wrong.

What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

All those guys can really pick it. If everybody else does their job, they don't need to hit.

ashburyjohn
01-29-2013, 12:26 PM
I have no problem trading Willingham but I question his value in the offseason.

I may be wrong, but the fact he ended the season hurt leads me to think his offseason value became low and it won't rebound until he gets a month under his belt proving there are no recurring issues.

And anyway his value to the Twins may be more as a player who helps bridge to the next generation in 2015 by making 2013-14 tolerable than in a medium quality prospect at best that he might bring in trade.

cmathewson
01-29-2013, 01:34 PM
Ah, the old "if everyone else does their job, he doesn't have to hit" gem. Thanks for that, cmat, it's been too long since someone trotted that out. Well played.

Thank you. I appreciate your compliment. Seriously, it would be great to get a shortstop who does both. But those guys are pretty rare and really expensive. Also, the Twins have been really bad at developing them over the years, something I have repeatedly blamed on Gardy. And when they did get one, they let him go for peanuts--one of Bill Smith's biggest blunders.

So here we are, without many good alternatives and the closest prospect two years away. The free agent market looks thin. I would have signed one of those guys to at least be competition for Florimon. But I don't think any of them is better overall than Pedro. That is controversial, I know, but that was the gist of my post. I was reacting to a post that criticised his offense and said little about his defense. In that, it seemed to miss the point. His glove makes up for a lot. Relative to a guy who will hit .250/.280/.320 (my projection for the best FA out there), he's better overall.

And yes, we have enough offense to absorb a #9 hitter who hits .230/.280/.300, as long as we pitch better. Offense wasn't our problem last year. Pitching was. Florimon will actually help this contact pitching staff by getting to more balls.

mike wants wins
01-29-2013, 01:58 PM
Minnesota was 10th in runs scored in the AL last year....so offense was part of the problem.

ThePuck
01-29-2013, 02:32 PM
Minnesota was 10th in runs scored in the AL last year....so offense was part of the problem.

and we lost our table setters...

Riverbrian
01-29-2013, 04:40 PM
To be fair to Ryan, Smith traded the last two legitimate shortstops the team had on the roster (yeah, he acquired one of them but then turned around and gave him away for virtually nothing).

Still, I think this comes down to how this organization is run and what they look for in middle infielders. There's a reason why they continually fail to produce middle infielders who can play above a replacement level. I don't know what that reason is but after 15 years of scuffling at two key positions on the field, it's obvious that they're doing something wrong.

What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

I'd love to argue this point... But I can't... I think it's on the nose and a completely fair comment. I don't know what the reason is either... But after this much time... You'd figure that we would have drafted and developed something... Even by accident. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread... The Twins have not drafted and developed a solid SS... ever?

My god... Is there a Solid MLB SS that I'm not thinking of that was drafted and developed by the Twins but traded and did good things for another squad?

TheLeviathan
01-29-2013, 04:55 PM
What's most damning is that they refuse to acknowledge this shortcoming and compound the issue by bringing in the likes of Juan Castro, Adam Everett, and Pedro Florimon and expect something good to happen.

Right, regardless of what was available this offseason, I'm not sure it would have mattered. This team, under Ryan, has had a really awful approach to filling that position regardless of how they attempt to. Their vision for the position is the problem, not the availability of solutions.

cmathewson
01-29-2013, 05:26 PM
What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.

I hear ya. They have been "pretty good" over there in three of the last 10 years, by my estimation: Bartlett's two good years and Hardy's year. Otherwise, it's been a revolving door of horse hockey that belied the other success we had. And I thought they would try to upgrade, at least to give Florimon competition. But apparently Ryan wanted to just focus on pitching this offseason. I can only hope they get someone in on a minor league deal before spring training. But whoever they get is not likely to be much better than Florimon. Perhaps they think he earned a shot to start based on his decent play in the last two months with the Twins (one really good month and one sub-par month). The only other thing is I know several of the coaches are very high on him despite his numbers, including Gardy and Bruno.

If Florimon tanks it, I'm sure SS will be tops on the list for a midseason acquisition. I expect Ryan to be active. I would think Willingham will fetch a decent shortstop plus a prospect.

FrodaddyG
01-29-2013, 05:30 PM
Perhaps they think he earned a shot to start based on his decent play in the last two months with the Twins (one really good month and one sub-par month).
I'd hate to see what a "bad" month looks like to you.

snepp
01-29-2013, 06:00 PM
I'd hate to see what a "bad" month looks like to you.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9836/29436.png


"Hi."

FrodaddyG
01-29-2013, 06:02 PM
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9836/29436.png


"Hi."
To be fair, Drew probably falls under the "decent" category if Pedro's 2012 stint did.

jokin
01-29-2013, 06:16 PM
But apparently Ryan wanted to just focus on pitching this offseason.



Multi-tasking be hard.

jokin
01-29-2013, 06:22 PM
I'd love to argue this point... But I can't... I think it's on the nose and a completely fair comment. I don't know what the reason is either... But after this much time... You'd figure that we would have drafted and developed something... Even by accident. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread... The Twins have not drafted and developed a solid SS... ever?

My god... Is there a Solid MLB SS that I'm not thinking of that was drafted and developed by the Twins but traded and did good things for another squad?

The other clubs were probably too busy building their own MI depth chart. If you look around the league, SS prioritization is evident on many teams' 40-man rosters, depth charts and minor league prospects. Good teams, and teams that prioritize actually getting better instead of paying lip service to the concept, stockpile pitching arms and SSs.

Ben B
01-30-2013, 02:27 AM
I'd love to argue this point... But I can't... I think it's on the nose and a completely fair comment. I don't know what the reason is either... But after this much time... You'd figure that we would have drafted and developed something... Even by accident. I hadn't really thought about it until this thread... The Twins have not drafted and developed a solid SS... ever?

My god... Is there a Solid MLB SS that I'm not thinking of that was drafted and developed by the Twins but traded and did good things for another squad?

The Twins acquired Bartlett when he was in single-A. Same for Gagne. So they had a hand in developing those two, but otherwise...