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View Full Version : Source: Twins have 1 yr offer to Saunders; never made offer to Marcum



Willihammer
01-25-2013, 04:27 PM
Source: Twins want Joe Saunders on 1-year deal, waiting to hear back | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Source_Twins_want_Joe_Saunders_on_1year_deal_waiti ng_to_hear_back012513)

According to Darren Wolfson's source

jokin
01-25-2013, 04:30 PM
Source: Twins want Joe Saunders on 1-year deal, waiting to hear back | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Source_Twins_want_Joe_Saunders_on_1year_deal_waiti ng_to_hear_back012513)

According to Darren Wolfson's source

Doogie has so many "source's" out there, he's bound to get one of them right at some point.

If this comes to fruition, it somewhat softens the self-inflicted blow that the Twins have done to themselves, but it's pretty sad that I get sucked into finding any solace whatsover in hoping the trigger gets pulled here. At least it would only be a one-year deal.

snepp
01-25-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't believe for one second that the Twins never made an offer to Marcum. They always make competitive offers, and are always rejected.

TheLeviathan
01-25-2013, 04:40 PM
I don't believe for one second that the Twins never made an offer to Marcum. They always make competitive offers, and are always rejected.

Well yeah, they made a proposal to Marcum. Idiot journalists are just not giving them proper credit. All a conspiracy to cover up the fact that all MLB FAs are in cahoots to spurn our every advance.

Alex
01-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Well yeah, they made a proposal to Marcum. Idiot journalists are just not giving them proper credit. All a conspiracy to cover up the fact that all MLB FAs are in cahoots to spurn our every advance.

I bet the Twins offered Greinke more, too, but we don't have enough real fans in Minnesota, so he turned them down.

...

(too much?)

John Bonnes
01-25-2013, 05:01 PM
Doogie's sources, for the most part, seem to be agents. He's also, imho, the best local inside info reporter locally. If he's saying the Twins never offered a contract to Marcum, I believe him.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-25-2013, 05:02 PM
I really wanted Marcum on this club, but with the contract he got from the Mets it is clear his injury is rather serious/concerning. Plus the Twins have already brought in multiple guys coming off significant injuries this off-season in Worley, Pelfrey and Harden (though he doesn't really count as much) so it makes sense trying to bring in a guy like Saunders instead.

I don't get all the Saunders hate, he isn't sexy by any means but he will give you 180+ IP and a slightly above league average ERA. (103 ERA+ career) 4.15 career ERA. He basically becomes what Pavano was for us when healthy (which was pretty good to be honest)

jokin
01-25-2013, 05:19 PM
I really wanted Marcum on this club, but with the contract he got from the Mets it is clear his injury is rather serious/concerning. Plus the Twins have already brought in multiple guys coming off significant injuries this off-season in Worley, Pelfrey and Harden (though he doesn't really count as much) so it makes sense trying to bring in a guy like Saunders instead.

I don't get all the Saunders hate, he isn't sexy by any means but he will give you 180+ IP and a slightly above league average ERA. (103 ERA+ career) 4.15 career ERA. He basically becomes what Pavano was for us when healthy (which was pretty good to be honest)

Last 3 years, the SP ML xFIP is 4.04. Saunders 3-year xFIP is 4.38. Correia's 3-year xFIP is actually a better shade of below-average mediocrity, 4.26. I know you're not saying this, but let's not hold much pretense that Saunders would come in and be the key catalyst in a dramatic Twins turnaround. Although it's a lot like getting a date with Miss Hospitality, it is significantly better having Saunders' innings out there than the alternative. Again, sadly, the biggest benefit to this proposed deal is the one-year nature of it.

Willihammer
01-25-2013, 05:39 PM
This sort of thing makes my blood boil


"just a matter of their interest in us," Ryan said. "I don't know why somebody wouldn't want to come here who's a legitimate starter."

If the offer is truly for just 1 year, then, I don't know, maybe its not Minnesota. Maybe its the offer!

edit: no, wait. Correia turned down more money to come to Minnesota. Therefore, Minnesota must be in fact, more desirable than other places. So much more desirable, in fact, that FAs should just play here for a discount even though there's not payroll restriction anyway.

jokin
01-25-2013, 05:42 PM
He's also, imho, the best local inside info reporter locally..

Considering the "competition", this really isn't much of an accolade.

drjim
01-25-2013, 06:23 PM
I'd take Saunders but I don't think he is much more than a lefthanded Correia.

Willihammer
01-25-2013, 06:43 PM
He's all that's left!

nicksaviking
01-25-2013, 07:36 PM
Wow is this a crock. No one is bringing up the obvious. No way does Saunders take a one year deal from the Twins, because if it is only one year, the Orioles will likely match it and he will go back to Baltimore where he pitched and succeded last year.

Ryan knows this, but he can once again play the no one wants to come here card.

Has he stopped to think that if he keeps laying this line of BS, free agents might actually start believing something is wrong with Minnesota?

jokin
01-25-2013, 09:06 PM
Wow is this a crock. No one is bringing up the obvious. No way does Saunders take a one year deal from the Twins, because if it is only one year, the Orioles will likely match it and he will go back to Baltimore where he pitched and succeded last year.

Ryan knows this, but he can once again play the no one wants to come here card.

Has he stopped to think that if he keeps laying this line of BS, free agents might actually start believing something is wrong with Minnesota?

It would indeed be ironic if Duqette ends up with both Jurrjens and Saunders in the rotation and effective, with a combined one-year salary less than what Correia is guaranteed for two years. Not a big fan of Saunders except as a #5 and on a year-to-year basis, and you're right Nick, Ryan will never try to win a bidding war, even on a no-brainer situation like this one.

And yes, I don't think he's ever read any econ books about The Law of Unintended Consequences. This "woe is me" act is really pathetic and insulting to Twins fans.

Knotholemike
01-25-2013, 09:15 PM
No way does Saunders take a one year deal from the Twins, because if it is only one year, the Orioles will likely match it and he will go back to Baltimore where he pitched and succeded last year.

The Orioles have moved on. It is unbelievable how many people on this board simply do not do the math or examine the specifics of what other teams are doing/have done. Saunders has only 3 different options left: Seattle, San Diego and Minnesota. I said this previously to all those wannabe GMs who wanted to give Saunders $10M to $12.5M per year for multiple years. BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.

Joe A. Preusser
01-25-2013, 09:40 PM
The Orioles have moved on. It is unbelievable how many people on this board simply do not do the math or examine the specifics of what other teams are doing/have done. Saunders has only 3 different options left: Seattle, San Diego and Minnesota. I said this previously to all those wannabe GMs who wanted to give Saunders $10M to $12.5M per year for multiple years. BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.

I couldn't disagree more. If we have a good team and are willing to pay market value, we can attract big name free agents. A few might shy away because of the reduced capacity for endorsements, but all else being equal, most will come play here. Right now we are not competitive and aren't willing to pay top dollar because of it, so they are looking elsewhere. It's as simple as that.

IdahoPilgrim
01-25-2013, 09:42 PM
I have no trouble believing that Minnesota is not considered an attractive market for free agents, and the only way to get them is to seriously overpay (of which I am not in favor). Let's not forget what a member of Ricky Rubio's family said when he was playing over in Europe and the thinking was he was lobbying for a trade to an east coast team: "Bottom line, why would Rubio go to Minnesota?"

Personally, I love living here, and I'm going to be sad to leave it when I move in February, but I was also born and raised here. As far as sheer glamour, for those who weren't, we can't top New York, LA, Chicago, etc. That's not to diss Minnesota; that's to recognize how we are often perceived by outsiders (rightly or wrongly).

johnnydakota
01-25-2013, 09:46 PM
I really wanted Marcum on this club, but with the contract he got from the Mets it is clear his injury is rather serious/concerning. Plus the Twins have already brought in multiple guys coming off significant injuries this off-season in Worley, Pelfrey and Harden (though he doesn't really count as much) so it makes sense trying to bring in a guy like Saunders instead.

I don't get all the Saunders hate, he isn't sexy by any means but he will give you 180+ IP and a slightly above league average ERA. (103 ERA+ career) 4.15 career ERA. He basically becomes what Pavano was for us when healthy (which was pretty good to be honest)

Why? Heading into the off season you thought , if only we could get Saunders and Correia we could make a run at the divisional title?
No we all knew we needed 2 front of the rotation starters, and what did we get? a big pile of steaming horse ploop and Ryan cuts more payroll... same ole song and dance...

Kwak
01-25-2013, 11:00 PM
Did I miss something?--Like "The Handbook of Values for Major League Baseball Players" that lists what salary (including incentive clauses) that each player is "worth". I read all these comments about "overpay" and I wonder "...hmm, how does [he] know what constitutes 'overpay' "?
Though some sort of comparision to the salary of other players is inevitable there clearly needs to be adjustment for where/when said player played, changes in health, and "woe is me" adjustment factors for changing to a new team with a different competitive situation and location, etc. Or, are salaries determined by plain,old, supply and demand? and "overpay" is simply a term invented by unbidders (and non-bidders) to disparage the player and his new team and salary?

howeda7
01-25-2013, 11:46 PM
Doogie's sources, for the most part, seem to be agents. He's also, imho, the best local inside info reporter locally. If he's saying the Twins never offered a contract to Marcum, I believe him.

Doogies the 'best local reporter' in the same way that Saunders would be the Twins 'ace'.

lightfoot789
01-25-2013, 11:54 PM
I couldn't disagree more. If we have a good team and are willing to pay market value, we can attract big name free agents. A few might shy away because of the reduced capacity for endorsements, but all else being equal, most will come play here. Right now we are not competitive and aren't willing to pay top dollar because of it, so they are looking elsewhere. It's as simple as that.

That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

lightfoot789
01-26-2013, 12:01 AM
I have no trouble believing that Minnesota is not considered an attractive market for free agents, and the only way to get them is to seriously overpay (of which I am not in favor). Let's not forget what a member of Ricky Rubio's family said when he was playing over in Europe and the thinking was he was lobbying for a trade to an east coast team: "Bottom line, why would Rubio go to Minnesota?"

Personally, I love living here, and I'm going to be sad to leave it when I move in February, but I was also born and raised here. As far as sheer glamour, for those who weren't, we can't top New York, LA, Chicago, etc. That's not to diss Minnesota; that's to recognize how we are often perceived by outsiders (rightly or wrongly).

That's all I'm saying - I Love MN and my Twins
That's not to diss Minnesota; that's to recognize how we are often perceived by outsiders (rightly or wrongly).[/QUOTE]

DelawareTwinsFan
01-26-2013, 12:02 AM
BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.

Not sure I agree for the following reasons...
If my memory serves me correctly, major league baseball is played in the summertime. I also think players aren't required to live in Minnesota even during the season. During the summer, Minnesota is actually a rather lovely place, particularly areas north of the Twin Cities. I hear the hunting and fishing is pretty good. Pardon me if I've stated anything particularly obvious.

LaBombo
01-26-2013, 12:07 AM
That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

If it makes it easier for you to stomach the Twins' offseason in free agency to believe that players are giving up millions to avoid a half dozen April games that might be 5 degrees cool than Detroit or Chicago or other northern cities, go for it.

By the way, how much of a premium are teams like Texas paying to have free agents come to play in 2+ months of hellish heat, as opposed to a handful of cold games?

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-26-2013, 12:09 AM
Why? Heading into the off season you thought , if only we could get Saunders and Correia we could make a run at the divisional title?
No we all knew we needed 2 front of the rotation starters, and what did we get? a big pile of steaming horse ploop and Ryan cuts more payroll... same ole song and dance...
We also got Pelfrey, Worley, May, Meyer, Harden.... Not all will help immediately but the Twins did bring in pitching depth currently, and some real talent for the future.

Kwak
01-26-2013, 01:06 AM
That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.
What cold weather? The games are played from April to October, with temperatures very much the same as any other city. True, there aren't very many truly "hot" and humid days, but that is normally considered a "good" thing. Winter? Players generally don't live in the same place year-round anyway--often seeking states that have low or zero state income taxes. This cold weather excuse just doesn't cut it for baseball.

Shane Wahl
01-26-2013, 01:21 AM
OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .

Kwak
01-26-2013, 01:52 AM
OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .
But Ryan believed he had the leverage and that Baker owed the Twins--he was wrong. That setback coupled with the non-acceptance of any other offer made (though we can't say for sure that there were any offers, only guess) a more aggressive offer was made to KC. I don't believe that any of the "top FA pitchers this year" were ever on his radar.

Top Gun
01-26-2013, 02:23 AM
Ryan just wants to show the fans who is boss, Dumb Twins fans.

jokin
01-26-2013, 05:28 AM
Doogies the 'best local reporter' in the same way that Saunders would be the Twins 'ace'.

Early morning LOL TD highlight of the day.

jokin
01-26-2013, 05:41 AM
OK. I am flabbergasted. If the Twins had simply made the Revere traded even for Worley alone, signed Baker to the same incentive-laded deal, and signed Marcum to the same incentive-laden deal while still throwing the flyer at Harden, it would have been a big ass improvement over what actually occurred. Baker at 5.5 million plus 1.5 million and Marcum at 4/4 would mean 15 million HOPEFULLY for one year and some leverage in resigning. That's better than 8.5 million now for Correia and Pelfrey, plus making that $13 million automatically anyway. Marcum is OBVIOUSLY a lower health risk and is OBVIOUSLY a higher upside than Pelfrey. And then it's Baker vs. Correia . . . .

In retrospect, the Baker fiasco started the Def-con 5 All Hands On Deck Panic Mode to sign a Correia, the numbers certainly fit, and so does the mis-evaluation of "a pretty darn good pitcher" (Not...). How do you then follow that up a few days later and throw a one-year deal at a TJ pitcher and not get a team option on the 2nd year, you know, the year when he most likely would be effective? It appears that Ryan got completely pwned on both deals.

How else but panic-mode do you explain how they missed this badly on Marcum? I am severely dissenting on the notion floated recently on TD that Ryan is still a sharp operator. He certainly hasn't acquitted himself very well with any distinction concerning addressing the starting pitching this offseason

jokin
01-26-2013, 05:57 AM
We also got Pelfrey, Worley, May, Meyer, Harden.... Not all will help immediately but the Twins did bring in pitching depth currently, and some real talent for the future.

Actually, at least 4 out of 5 won't "help immediately". It's highly likely one or more may never "help" in any difference-making way. Once again, the Twins have placed themselves in a position with only a pallid "Plan A" in place, wherein virtually every variable has to come up "Aces", merely for the team to have a shot at mediocrity.

TheLeviathan
01-26-2013, 07:07 AM
That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

My god man, some of this crap is getting borderline certifiable. Is this a plea for help of some kind?

twinsnorth49
01-26-2013, 07:49 AM
That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

Name someone who's ever turned down top dollar because he was afraid he was going to freeze his nuts off during a couple of games....in April.

Knotholemike
01-26-2013, 07:52 AM
During the summer, Minnesota is actually a rather lovely place, particularly areas north of the Twin Cities. I hear the hunting and fishing is pretty good. Pardon me if I've stated anything particularly obvious.

Shhh....Don't let anyone else know. This is our little secret. Why would anyone want to spoil it? Having lived all over the country, I can't think of places that offer what Minnesota has to offer. It is just reality that a lot of pro athletes and their agents want the media attention and endorsements of a big market. The perception is that Minnesota is just fly-over country. The Twins would have to overpay for top free agents which they smartly will not do.

Jim H
01-26-2013, 11:14 AM
One of the advantages of being a free agent is you have at least some choice where you end up playing. It is fine to speculate on what it would take to lure certain free agents to play in Minnesota, but I suspect it depends on the free agent. Some would like to come to Minnesota "all other things being equal" some would not. Saying you have to "overpay" to lure top free agents to Minnesota, may be true in some cases, but probably isn't universally true.

What I think is true, is that Ryan makes his own evaluations, based on what his scouts and other advisors tell him. Clearly, his evaluations don't always dovetail with what many experts and bloggers believe. I don't believe he was willing to give some of the so called medium tier free agents what other GM's were willing to give, and I expect that in a few cases he may of made competitive offers and those free agents decided to take a similar offer elsewhere.

I also don't believe that Twins don't leak much information about contract offers and such to the media. Such leaks occur in other at other points, such as agents or maybe personnel in other organizations. How accurate that type of information is, depends on what you want to believe, in some cases.

Personally, I think a lot of these guys will turn out to be "overpaid" in the sense that their performance will not come very close to matching their cost, and there will have been "bargains" out of this group of free agents who will perform quite well for the money paid. Trying to perdict which will be which, which many are doing, isn't likely to be very accurate. I just hope Ryan managed to get a "bargain" or 2.

Willihammer
01-26-2013, 11:52 AM
Obviously people have preferences where they want to play, that's why agents bargain for things like limited no-trade clauses.

One local boy the Twins missed out on was Edwin Jackson, he was born in Neu-Ulm.

SDTwinsFan
01-26-2013, 12:39 PM
What is really sad is that when I saw this post, I thought: "Saunders might be a Twin??? That's great!" And 2 months ago, the thought of Saunders being a Twin would have made me sick.... At least the FO is good at lowering our expectations.

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 12:40 PM
I don't understand how this discussion can be presented in black and white. The signing of a Free Agent is Grey every time. Every case is different.

These guys spend their younger years under team control. If they want to play for another organization. They can't. They must wait for Free Agency. Once they reach Free Agency... The now have options that they didn't have before... They are all of sudden personally responsible for the decisions that will shape the remainder of their career. There is no black and white in this... It's only Grey... You can't say that Free Agents won't sign with Minnesota because Minnesota is a cow pasture compared to New York... And you can't say that Minnesota has a fair shot at all Free Agents. It's grey area and if Minnesota wants a Free Agent... They have to make it a good career decision for the player by either paying them more or presenting a situation where the player can advance his career.

Each Free Agent is going to sign with a team that wants them and the team that makes sense for them.

Dan Haren was reported to be a West Coast Guy being from California. He signed with an East Coast Team. I have no idea why... I'm guessing that the Washington offer was near the top of the offers financially and pitching well for a contender could lead to a bigger pay day next year. So the deal was right for him and he said goodbye to his beloved West Coast. Maybe he signs an extension with Washington going forward or next year he signs with Dodgers for 6 years and 100 Million. His next move will be a move that Haren feels is best for this career and if that means playing for Kansas City next year. That's what it means and only Dan Haren knows.

Greinke was reported to suffer from a Social Anxiety Disorder. It has been argued that he would never sign with the gigantic Markets because the spotlight would turn him into a Tony Shalloub Monk character or something. What did he do... He Signed for 6 years smack dab in the middle of the Hollywood spotlight. Why did he do it? I don't know... I'm guessing that 6 Years and 147 Million was the best thing he could do for his career at this point.

Does Minnesota have to overpay for Free Agents... Yes they do... Every team has to overpay for signing Free Agents... Can it be argued that the Dodgers had to overpay for Greinke... I'd say that they had to cuz Greinke sure got a boat load of money. Looks like an overpay to me.

I'm guessing that Kevin Corriea was probably not happy with getting knocked out of the rotation in Pittsburgh. He was looking for a team where he could stick in the rotation because that would be best for his career. I think he labeled Minnesota has the best place for that. I think Pelfrey labeled Minnesota has a good match because he would have an opportunity to pitch and revive his career. Harden same thing. These are just guesses but they make sense to me at least.

Marcum... Who knows... I really wanted the guy... Maybe Terry Ryan didn't... Maybe Terry Ryan wanted him but Marcum didn't want Minnesota. Who knows. 4 Million sure doesn't seem like much but I'm pretty sure that there was more that went into Marcum going to the Mets than I'm aware of...

Throwing rocks at the Franchise because a player signed elsewhere will never make much sense to me. The Players have Freewill and all 30 organizations are trying hard to build an organization for success.

It's incredibly easy for us to say we have 30 Million to spend... OK... I want him... him... him and her. Saying... There ya go... I fixed the Twins like you are walking through the supermarket loading canned goods into your cart and the canned goods have no choice but to go along with you.

Even the Astros have a plan... I'm sure the Twins do as well. I don't know what the plan is and I don't think Mackey knows either and I don't think a single poster on Twinsdaily knows either. I'm bummed that we didn't get one of the perceived above average arms. I'm shocked that Marcum went for 4 million... I really am... I'm just saying that I don't have the details and there are always details.

2013 is gonna be what 2013 is gonna be. Is it April yet?

Brock Beauchamp
01-26-2013, 12:55 PM
Throwing rocks at the Franchise because a player signed elsewhere will never make much sense to me. The Players have Freewill and all 30 organizations are trying hard to build an organization for success.

For me, it's not about a single free agent. I would have been happy with anything from Greinke to Marcum. There were about ten decent options that ranged from very good (Greinke) to good (Sanchez) to mediocre (Jackson) to question marks with upside (Marcum).

The problem is that Ryan didn't get any of them. With more pitching options on the market than I've seen since the mid-2000s, Ryan failed to get even a mediocre pitcher and instead relied entirely on gambles such as Correia (well below average once you factor in league disparity) and Harden (whose arm could fall off the next time he opens a car door a little too vigorously). No matter how you look at the situation, it's a fail.

Which is really too bad. The Twins had a lot of money to spend and Ryan did an exemplary job with the Span and Revere trades. If he could have just done an "okay" job with the free agent market, I'd be pleased as punch going into this season. Instead, I want to scream.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-26-2013, 12:59 PM
Last 3 years, the SP ML xFIP is 4.04. Saunders 3-year xFIP is 4.38. Correia's 3-year xFIP is actually a better shade of below-average mediocrity, 4.26. I know you're not saying this, but let's not hold much pretense that Saunders would come in and be the key catalyst in a dramatic Twins turnaround. Although it's a lot like getting a date with Miss Hospitality, it is significantly better having Saunders' innings out there than the alternative. Again, sadly, the biggest benefit to this proposed deal is the one-year nature of it.

In each of the past 5 years Saunders has outperformed his xFIP and FIP by a significant margin, yes xFIP and FIP are useful tools, but they aren't an end all be all, 5 years in a row isn't luck, its a trend. So I am not very worried about the fact that Saunders doesn't strike a lot of guys out or that his HR% isn't the best.

Kwak
01-26-2013, 01:08 PM
In the title of this thread is a claim that the Twins never made an offer to Marcum, and unless people start disputing said claim then we must conclude that "Ryan didn't want Marcum". My take on the discussion was the "why not?" The disclosed terms don't appear to be outside the acceptable parameters to the Twins. Marcum's statistics appear to be better than others who were signed--so why not? It would be way too glib to dismiss Marcum as "damaged goods" when the Twins have made offers to, and even signed, pitchers who fall into the "damaged goods" category. We can also reasonably conclude that the Twins didn't (and are aware of it) solve all of their pitching problems, so there must be another factor(s) that caused the Twins to "pass" on Marcum (yet sign Correria, Pelfrey, and the others).

jokin
01-26-2013, 01:10 PM
What is really sad is that when I saw this post, I thought: "Saunders might be a Twin??? That's great!" And 2 months ago, the thought of Saunders being a Twin would have made me sick.... At least the FO is good at lowering our expectations.

And many of our fans are more than happy with it:

[QUOTE=JimH;} ...." I just hope Ryan managed to get a "bargain" or 2......" Riverbrian (http://twinsdaily.com/members/riverbrian.html), PseudoSABR (http://twinsdaily.com/members/pseudosabr.html) and 70charger (http://twinsdaily.com/members/70charger.html) like this[/QUOTE]

Willihammer
01-26-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm guessing that Kevin Corriea was probably not happy with getting knocked out of the rotation in Pittsburgh. He was looking for a team where he could stick in the rotation because that would be best for his career. I think he labeled Minnesota has the best place for that. I think Pelfrey labeled Minnesota has a good match because he would have an opportunity to pitch and revive his career. Harden same thing. These are just guesses but they make sense to me at least.

Why would Correia think that? Last year, the Twins DFA'd Jason Marquis after 7 starts to make room for Cole DeVries.

The Twins made an offer to Correia that was competitive. That's why Correia, Pelfrey, and Harden are here, and not Marcum or anyone else.


Each Free Agent is going to sign with a team that wants them and the team that makes sense for them.

Look at the no-trade clauses of the guys traded this winter. Upton had on his Seattle, Toronto, Boston and the Chicago Cubs. Asdrubal had on his, the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Giants, Nats, and Mets.

It is possible any given FA doesn't want to play in MN. Its highly unlikely that an entire crop of FAs doesn't want to play in MN.


Even the Astros have a plan... I'm sure the Twins do as well. I don't know what the plan is and I don't think Mackey knows either and I don't think a single poster on Twinsdaily knows either.

No, but it doesn't take a genius to recognize patterns. 2013 looks an awful lot like 2012. So either Jr expects better results this time, or the timeline for his plan is so stretched out that he's willing to punt 2 or more seasons before it kicks in. That's not acceptable, not when there's $20m or more still on the table.

Shane Wahl
01-26-2013, 02:13 PM
Willihammer with the hammer straight on the head of the nail above. Well done.

The only question remaining for me is: how much whiskey do I need to drink to forget this whole situation?

jokin
01-26-2013, 02:30 PM
In each of the past 5 years Saunders has outperformed his xFIP and FIP by a significant margin, yes xFIP and FIP are useful tools, but they aren't an end all be all, 5 years in a row isn't luck, its a trend. So I am not very worried about the fact that Saunders doesn't strike a lot of guys out or that his HR% isn't the best.


I'm not sure the "trend is your friend". If you would have said he'd done what you said he did in 2 out of the last 7 years, I might have been persuaded:


YEAR ERA xFIP
2006 4.71 4.37
2007 4.44 4.39
2008 3.41 4.59
2009 4.60 4.74
2010 4.47 4.50
2011 3.69 4.38
2012 4.07 4.25

His ERA over the last 3 years is 4.07, not really a big premium over his 4.38 xFIP, even with the big year of 2011 averaged in.


Given the current state of the Twins Swiss Cheese defense, a veritable Pitch to Contact Zenmaster like Saunders should be the last pitcher the Twins should covet on a likely overbid necessary to obtain him.

And I know you mentioned his HR% at least as a concern, but don't try to gloss over the fact that RH batters will be licking their chops as they look to become very familiar with the the Left Field stands at TF plus with a chance to increase on their already lofty .804 career OPS against him. (In effect, every RHB averages out close to the equivalent of a Bryce Harper). Besides his high Gopher ball rate against righties, his career FIP against them is 4.95.

I am resigned to attempting to sign him, but not for the numbers bandied about on TD, and not long-term.

jokin
01-26-2013, 02:42 PM
Look at the no-trade clauses of the guys traded this winter. Upton had on his Seattle, Toronto, Boston and the Chicago Cubs. Asdrubal had on his, the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Giants, Nats, and Mets.

It is possible any given FA doesn't want to play in MN. Its highly unlikely that an entire crop of FAs doesn't want to play in MN.



.

Sometimes, you forget that you know what you know.

Thanks Willihammer for remembering the most cogent point yet in shutting down this ridiculous argument foisted upon us by Ryan and dutifully perpetuated ad nauseum on TD.

edavis0308
01-26-2013, 02:53 PM
Those guys aren't good examples. You can only use Guys that have Minnesota on their list in this discussion to prove your point.

Boom Boom
01-26-2013, 03:11 PM
So we'll jump at the chance to sign Correia for two years, but with Saunders we're going to draw a line in the sand at one.

snepp
01-26-2013, 03:14 PM
So we'll jump at the chance to sign Correia for two years, but with Saunders we're going to draw a line in the sand at one.

I think they realize that they screwed the pooch with Correia and aren't looking to conduct a repeat performance.

jokin
01-26-2013, 03:50 PM
I think they realize that they screwed the pooch with Correia and aren't looking to conduct a repeat performance.

Would that be addition by inaction?

That could be the best move since trading for Meyer.

Kwak
01-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Hmm, let's see, what's worse signing a marginal FA pitcher from the NL to a 1-year contract or nothing? What would happen to the "saved" $5MM or so?--do we fans recieve any benefit? Like maybe a $1 off a ticket if we sit in the designated b--tching section, or maybe a bag of peanuts to remind us of who we are and where we are sitting?

USAFChief
01-26-2013, 04:39 PM
I think they realize that they screwed the pooch with Correia and aren't looking to conduct a repeat performance.
I'd feel somewhat better if I really thought they realize they screwed the pooch with Correia. But I don't, so I don't.

Rosterman
01-26-2013, 04:44 PM
Hmm, let's see, what's worse signing a marginal FA pitcher from the NL to a 1-year contract or nothing? What would happen to the "saved" $5MM or so?--do we fans recieve any benefit? Like maybe a $1 off a ticket if we sit in the designated b--tching section, or maybe a bag of peanuts to remind us of who we are and where we are sitting?
If you renew your season ticket package, you get 10% off your spending on CONcessions or on Twins Stuff. Your Kevin Coreria jrsey will be cheaper than any Twins jersey your purchased on-site last year. Hey, any Liriano jerseys left at Twinsfest, or were they apckaged as twofers with Valencia or Baker jerseys.

Highabove
01-26-2013, 04:56 PM
If you renew your season ticket package, you get 10% off your spending on CONcessions or on Twins Stuff. Your Kevin Coreria jrsey will be cheaper than any Twins jersey your purchased on-site last year. Hey, any Liriano jerseys left at Twinsfest, or were they apckaged as twofers with Valencia or Baker jerseys.

The best part of a season ticket package is the telephone conferences with Terry Ryan. Always insightful.

snepp
01-26-2013, 04:59 PM
I'd feel somewhat better if I really thought they realize they screwed the pooch with Correia. But I don't, so I don't.

Ryan's comments concerning Correia have at least hinted to a bit of buyer's remorse. Whether that perceived remorse means anything moving forward or not, well, I doubt anything actually changes.

The Wise One
01-26-2013, 05:17 PM
It is possible any given FA doesn't want to play in MN. Its highly unlikely that an entire crop of FAs doesn't want to play in MN.



No, but it doesn't take a genius to recognize patterns. 2013 looks an awful lot like 2012. So either Jr expects better results this time, or the timeline for his plan is so stretched out that he's willing to punt 2 or more seasons before it kicks in. That's not acceptable, not when there's $20m or more still on the table.

While it is indeed unlikely that all free agents don't want to sign here it is reasonable to think that the high end free agents wouldn't want to play here. Why would you want to go to a losing team if given a choice. If they are any good as a player they have already earned a ton of money. Unless they have the spending habits of Bryant McKinney they don't have to sign for the most money. The marginal talent available to sign leads me to think who cares? They could sign a dozen players the caliber of a Padilla.

jokin
01-26-2013, 06:32 PM
While it is indeed unlikely that all free agents don't want to sign here it is reasonable to think that the high end free agents wouldn't want to play here. .

I think the debate on TD hasn't gone on longer than the sum total of about 3 minutes regarding the lack of signing the high end FA by the Twins. Only the rubest of rubes holds out some silly wanderlustic notion about a Greinke, Sanchez or Pujols signing in Minnesota. Do you consider the likes of Jackson, Blanton or Marcum, Myers, McCarthy "high end"? These are tier 2/3 guys, slightly above mediocre to good, and all better than anything the Twins envision in their rotation. What the heck, Francis and Lannan for peanuts would have been a huge depth upgrade at the back end of the rotation.

.You're conflating "marginal" talent with "serviceable" talent.

You talk about "marginal talent available", the Twins pitching staff depth chart has "marginal" written in the margins, and everywhere else on the roster page.

The Twins only have 4 returning pitchers from 2012 (Diamond, Duensing, Burton and Perkins) who were more than a sneezful above replacement level. With the exception of Hendriks, their bottom 7-in-terms-of-WAR pitchers (Blackburn, Swarzak, Deduno, Walters, Burnett and DeVries) could all come down with a case of career-ending River Blindness tomorrow and it would have no significant negative effect on the team's prospects, that's why they are termed (at, or below) "replacement level".

Spot on, on Padilla, you could sign 4 mythical, but desciptively "marginal", but still "serviceable", Padilla-like RP's who had a 0.5 WAR in 2012, for less than $10M total, dump the whole bullpen except Duensing, Fien, Burton and Perkins and your WAR goes up by 2.0 versus the -1.2 for the guys you dumped--------

Remember, the Twins entire bullpen net WAR value for 2012 was only 2.5. The likes of a guy who couldn't even get a contract in the States like Padilla, could be the key to vaulting the 3rd worst bullpen in 2012, as rated by xFIP, into nearly the top quintile bullpen group in all of baseball (behind only 6 teams @ 6.0 WAR , for only $10M invested (net cost, $6-$7M). You don't even necessarily have to find another Burton, just 4 guys who would average out for you the 0.5 WAR score/man like Padilla rated in 2012.

You would get 200 innings (+ additional 2013 innings factored in throughout the pen) with an xFIP of 3.69 from Padilla versus the 278 innings of ~5.00+ xFIP dreck from Gray and the gang in 2012. A huge upgrade for little marginal increased cost of say $6-$7M.

Money well spent? Flippable assets created from a new-found position of strength? I think so.

lee_the_twins_fan
01-26-2013, 06:42 PM
The Twins made an offer to Correia that was competitive. That's why Correia, Pelfrey, and Harden are here, and not Marcum or anyone else.

Mike Pelfrey said yesterday at ESPN 1500's booth at Twins Fest that his wife has family and friends here. That was an inducement for him. The money was probably also a factor.

Not every FA wants to avoid Minnesota; just like not all want to avoid Texas or Seattle, or New York.

Then there's guys like Joe Mauer, whom I believe wants to stay in Minnesota for the rest of his career.

Sometimes it's the location. Sometimes it's the people involved. Sometimes it's the organization or the organization's recent record.. Too often it's the money. All of these are considerations for FA – some to one degree or another.

Ultimately, it's up to the FA. Of course, there are some areas which are more populated – like LA, New York, Chicago, etc. There are simply more people, so more chance that someone will want to play there.

Lots of factors. To say no major FA wants to play here is a crude overstatement. But no FA wants to be underpaid.

TheLeviathan
01-26-2013, 06:59 PM
To say no major FA wants to play here is a crude overstatement. But no FA wants to be underpaid.

Exactly. And so long as our GM prefers to stay in the camp of the second sentence I quoted, we'll have trouble enticing FAs. All those other factors are irrelevant when you aren't willing to be competitive with your offers.

The Wise One
01-26-2013, 07:14 PM
I think the debate on TD hasn't gone on longer than the sum total of about 3 minutes regarding the lack of signing the high end FA by the Twins. Only the rubest of rubes holds out some silly wanderlustic notion about a Greinke, Sanchez or Pujols signing in Minnesota. Do you consider the likes of Jackson, Blanton or Marcum, Myers, McCarthy "high end"? These are tier 2/3 guys, slightly above mediocre to good, and all better than anything the Twins envision in their rotation. What the heck, Francis and Lannan for peanuts would have been a huge depth upgrade at the back end of the rotation.

.You're conflating "marginal" talent with "serviceable" talent.

You talk about "marginal talent available", the Twins pitching staff depth chart has "marginal" written in the margins, and everywhere else on the roster page.

The Twins only have 4 returning pitchers from 2012 (Diamond, Duensing, Burton and Perkins) who were more than a sneezful above replacement level. With the exception of Hendriks, their bottom 7-in-terms-of-WAR pitchers (Blackburn, Swarzak, Deduno, Walters, Burnett and DeVries) could all come down with a case of career-ending River Blindness tomorrow and it would have no significant negative effect on the team's prospects, that's why they are termed (at, or below) "replacement level".


Remember, the Twins entire bullpen net WAR value for 2012 was only 2.5. The likes of a guy who couldn't even get a contract in the States like Padilla, could be the key to vaulting the 3rd worst bullpen in 2012, as rated by xFIP, into nearly the top quintile bullpen group in all of baseball (behind only 6 teams @ 6.0 WAR , for only $10M invested (net cost, $6-$7M). You don't even necessarily have to find another Burton, just 4 guys who would average out for you the 0.5 WAR score/man like Padilla rated in 2012.

Flippable assets created from a new-found position of strength? I think so.

Baltimore Orioles bullpen for example had a WAR somewher around 6. Are you really thinking in terms of WAR that 3.5 games is going to make a turnaround in a team? Some of the starters you mentioned did not even start last year for their teams. Do you really think that a Lannanor a Francis is going to make a differenceon the Twins? More # 5 starters? Do you even know what the teams need if that is what you want.
There are plenty on this board who think that Jackson, Marcum and McCarthy are all in the very good catefory. Very good doesn't necessarily want to pitch in a losing environment.
Doublecheck your trade ideas on flippable assests. What do you get in trade for your 1 WAR players.

Kwak
01-26-2013, 07:15 PM
Without a contract offer ensures said FA will not play here.

jokin
01-26-2013, 07:43 PM
Baltimore Orioles bullpen for example had a WAR somewher around 6. Are you really thinking in terms of WAR that 3.5 games is going to make a turnaround in a team? Some of the starters you mentioned did not even start last year for their teams. Do you really think that a Lannanor a Francis is going to make a differenceon the Twins? More # 5 starters? Do you even know what the teams need if that is what you want.
There are plenty on this board who think that Jackson, Marcum and McCarthy are all in the very good catefory. Very good doesn't necessarily want to pitch in a losing environment.
Doublecheck your trade ideas on flippable assests. What do you get in trade for your 1 WAR players.

On flippable assets, you're not really getting this. You build depth from below, in that you then create expendable tradeable & coveted assets- these theoretically become Perkins and Burton- if they continue their progression. Hopefully, they can be traded for prospects at positions of weakness as the position players come off the books and the draft picks move up to take the place of your tradeable assets from a now-developing position of strength. The WAR question in your first paragraph is key, it's not so much a goal as "turning a season around" all by itself. Create areas of strength and depth in as efficient a manner as possible, thus developing incremental improvements in each aspect of the team. Making a proposed turnaround in the bullpen in the proportions close to what I outlined is certain to make the 1000s of players and agents around the various levels of baseball sit up and take notice, particularly the bounty of potential FA starters this offseason, for example, in making the Twins recognized as a team serious about developing a consistent winner.

Range of opinion on the SPs I proffered? Their numbers and projections suggest how mediocre to very good they are, opinions may vary, sure. Jackson went to the Cubs, Marcum to the Mets, McCarthy to the D-Backs. Sorry... but Winning/Losing wasn't the make or break factor on ANY these deals. Nuff said here.

On the proposed SP pick-ups, even those such as the lowly #4-5 projections like Lannan and Francis, they sadly all represent potential upgrades, to at least some, if not most, on this lowly Twins pitching depth chart, and they were available for spit, and represented potential value when compared to Correia or Saunders. Again, incremental improvement-seeking, building the franchise back up one brick at a time, finding the next Burton, Dickey, Diamond along the way is all part of that dynamic process.

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 08:19 PM
For me, it's not about a single free agent. I would have been happy with anything from Greinke to Marcum. There were about ten decent options that ranged from very good (Greinke) to good (Sanchez) to mediocre (Jackson) to question marks with upside (Marcum).

The problem is that Ryan didn't get any of them. With more pitching options on the market than I've seen since the mid-2000s, Ryan failed to get even a mediocre pitcher and instead relied entirely on gambles such as Correia (well below average once you factor in league disparity) and Harden (whose arm could fall off the next time he opens a car door a little too vigorously). No matter how you look at the situation, it's a fail.

Which is really too bad. The Twins had a lot of money to spend and Ryan did an exemplary job with the Span and Revere trades. If he could have just done an "okay" job with the free agent market, I'd be pleased as punch going into this season. Instead, I want to scream.

I agree with you... Marcum was the bottom of the upper rung in my assessment... And the last one available... I wanted one of those guys and getting one of those guys was my personal litmus test for the off season. I'm bummed... But... It was my assessment and my plan. TR isn't following my plan and I won't throw rocks at him because he isn't.

Cdog... North... Glunn... Chief... Jokin... Puck... Shane... Hammer... Nurse and Charger would all have different plans than I... And different plans from each other.

For reasons past our understanding... This is TR's plan and come what May.

TheLeviathan
01-26-2013, 08:35 PM
So, your point is that this is TR's plan? Well, yes, thank you for that. No one is saying otherwise.

His plan is still subject to criticism and evaluation by fans. Comes with the job. So back to the discussion then?

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 08:41 PM
Why would Correia think that? Last year, the Twins DFA'd Jason Marquis after 7 starts to make room for Cole DeVries.

The Twins made an offer to Correia that was competitive. That's why Correia, Pelfrey, and Harden are here, and not Marcum or anyone else.



Look at the no-trade clauses of the guys traded this winter. Upton had on his Seattle, Toronto, Boston and the Chicago Cubs. Asdrubal had on his, the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Giants, Nats, and Mets.

It is possible any given FA doesn't want to play in MN. Its highly unlikely that an entire crop of FAs doesn't want to play in MN.



No, but it doesn't take a genius to recognize patterns. 2013 looks an awful lot like 2012. So either Jr expects better results this time, or the timeline for his plan is so stretched out that he's willing to punt 2 or more seasons before it kicks in. That's not acceptable, not when there's $20m or more still on the table.

i don't know what Correia was thinking... But most don't think they are going to pitch like Marquis did for us but yes I agree... The Twins made a competitive offer and that is why they are here. I would never argue against that.

I also agree with you that simply saying Free Agents don't want to come here is way to simple a statement. Like I said... It's not Black and White... It's Grey... If the Twins seriously wanted someone... They could have got serious and landed someone. I simply don't know how serious they were and that I file under Terry Ryan's plan. I'm just saying that whatever the plan is... I'm pretty sure it's not to remain in last place forever. The goal has to be to get better at some point.

Does TR think this year is the year or is the timeline pushed down the road. I don't know... Seems to me that the timeline is down the road... I think we can all see that. Well most of us... At least.

Terry Ryan is quoted as saying that he won't call this a rebuilding year because its an excuse to lose. Some interpret that as an example of lying. I call it an example of what you are supposed to say in a rebuilding year. You don't send a "we are going to lose" message to a ball club or fan base even if the odds are long.

I'm not going to throw rocks. I'm gonna watch as many games as I can... Just like I do every year. My rocks will be hurled at the White Sox like every year.m

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 08:45 PM
So, your point is that this is TR's plan? Well, yes, thank you for that. No one is saying otherwise. That was three incredibly content-free paragraphs stating nothing but the obvious.

His plan is still subject to criticism and evaluation by fans. Comes with the job. So back to the discussion then?

I'm asking nicely... Please put me on ignore.

TheLeviathan
01-26-2013, 08:49 PM
I'm asking nicely... Please put me on ignore.

Why? And miss out on being informed that...*gasp* Terry Ryan is the one with the plan for this offseason?

Where else will I get such amazing content if I'm not reading your posts? My "trying to find the point in a sea of irrelevance in a post" skills would really start to fade if I did that!

Thrylos
01-26-2013, 08:53 PM
For reasons past our understanding... This is TR's plan and come what May.

I beg to disagree. My biggest issue (maybe) with TR is that he does not have a consistent plan, but he does half rear end reactionary moves to say that he did something: He trades his 2 CFs for a 25 and two 23 year old (in 2013) pitchers with upside (excellent), so the Twins can compete in 2014-15ish, but keeps his aging first baseman and left fielder, extends his aging DH/C, signs Blackburn's reincarnation (Correia) to a 2 year deal overpaying, and signs a couple of SPs close to 30 with lots of health questions.

If this were a plan, it is made by a schizophrenic individual.

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 09:26 PM
Why? And miss out on being informed that...*gasp* Terry Ryan is the one with the plan for this offseason?

Where else will I get such amazing content if I'm not reading your posts? My "trying to find the point in a sea of irrelevance in a post" skills would really start to fade if I did that!

This is my third request... Please put me on ignore.

Willihammer
01-26-2013, 09:28 PM
Terry Ryan is quoted as saying that he won't call this a rebuilding year because its an excuse to lose. Some interpret that as an example of lying. I call it an example of what you are supposed to say in a rebuilding year. You don't send a "we are going to lose" message to a ball club or fan base even if the odds are long.

I will lap up the Twins koolaid again too. Heck I am already on the hook for about 4 or 5 gallons of it.

The only thing that gets me is, when he makes promises like this with one eye closed. Obviously its possible the Twins could win the World Series this year, if they play a perfect season, everything breaks right, and maybe JV goes down with TJ. And so technically, on the dotted line, you could justify this as not a rebuild year (again), just like you could every year.

But as far as a plan goes, there's obviously not one for 2013. The best I can figure, at this point, is that the hope is one or two of the guys inked for 2013 play good enough to reject a qualifying offer next October, and the TWins come out with comp picks. Keep kicking that rock down the road, as per vintage Jr.

That was not supposed to be how the Twins did things in the post-TF era.

h2oface
01-26-2013, 09:31 PM
Players rejected offers from the Nationals for several years....... and they were often better than the ones they took. Of course it is happening to the Twins now.

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 09:32 PM
I beg to disagree. My biggest issue (maybe) with TR is that he does not have a consistent plan, but he does half rear end reactionary moves to say that he did something: He trades his 2 CFs for a 25 and two 23 year old (in 2013) pitchers with upside (excellent), so the Twins can compete in 2014-15ish, but keeps his aging first baseman and left fielder, extends his aging DH/C, signs Blackburn's reincarnation (Correia) to a 2 year deal overpaying, and signs a couple of SPs close to 30 with lots of health questions.

If this were a plan, it is made by a schizophrenic individual.

I'll admit its my biggest fear... Kind of like limbo land... Not fully rebuilding and not fully building. I understand where everyone is coming from.

All plans are subject to change so there would have to be some on the fly decisions but personally... I don't know why we couldn't have landed a closer to the top tier pitcher. I just refuse to believe that TR is out of his mind. There has to be a reason and I don't think any of us know.

TheLeviathan
01-26-2013, 09:43 PM
That was not supposed to be how the Twins did things in the post-TF era.

Brace yourself for a post detailing you in 6 paragraphs (with lots of ....) that TF is located in Minneapolis!

Smith showed us that a lot can happen with this team with an aggressive GM at the helm. His aggression ended up hurting the team in many ways, but it was also a boon for the team in many ways. Smith was aggressive, Ryan is generally more patient. JR has openly stated that he isn't a fan of long contracts to pitchers. All these conspiracy theories and excuses ignore the fact that Ryan has long since stated his intentions in FA. It's to be cautious and invest in no-risk, no-upside players typically with one trait: reliability. In trades he is far more aggressive and has been in the past.

So basically, we got classic Terry Ryan. Nothing more.

Kwak
01-26-2013, 09:43 PM
I beg to disagree. My biggest issue (maybe) with TR is that he does not have a consistent plan, but he does half rear end reactionary moves to say that he did something: He trades his 2 CFs for a 25 and two 23 year old (in 2013) pitchers with upside (excellent), so the Twins can compete in 2014-15ish, but keeps his aging first baseman and left fielder, extends his aging DH/C, signs Blackburn's reincarnation (Correia) to a 2 year deal overpaying, and signs a couple of SPs close to 30 with lots of health questions.

If this were a plan, it is made by a schizophrenic individual.

The only reactionary move I saw was the Corriera contract, and he might have been on the target list all along (seems like he's a Twins-type pitcher). The trades of CFs for more pitching is indicative of a two-part plan--rebuild for the near future, but make some cosmetic improvements for 2013. You may argue that the trade of two MLers for one plus prospects is a degredation. But, I consider Revere to be replaceable from within as well as not part of the longer-term plan (or what I perceive Ryan's plan to be). No, I don't think Ryan has done enough, even within the team-imposed salary reduction (budget cut being part of the plan IMO).

Trading Morneau? I wouldn't be surprised to find that was attempted, but Ryan was "displeased" with the results. There is also the part of the plan (IMO) of competitiveness in 2013. Clearly this roster is disappointing but to trade Morneau (a fan favorite) and not return results acceptable to the fan base would be a PR nightmare. I also believe the FO thinks they can make an acceptable trade of Morneau in mid-season. I don't think they can, but I wish them well.
Blackburn's reincarnation? Disagreeable to be sure, but they are committed to pay him $5.5MM so I'm not surprised that they would give another shot to Blackburn. My take on the TD poster response to Corriera is that Blackburn might (before surgery issue) provide similar results, so try it. Blackburn would most likely have failed IMO. The signing of the "health questionable"?--consistent with the plan to significantly reduce budget yet make cosmetic improvement on 2012. I don't think any of them will make as much of a contribution on the field as they do now as a PR device.

To sum up, yes I do believe Ryan has a plan, but I disagree with the salary reduction/diminished expectations part, and I believe he could have done better than he did, even using the team-imposed constraints.

Riverbrian
01-26-2013, 09:45 PM
I will lap up the Twins koolaid again too. Heck I am already on the hook for about 4 or 5 gallons of it.

The only thing that gets me is, when he makes promises like this with one eye closed. Obviously its possible the Twins could win the World Series this year, if they play a perfect season, everything breaks right, and maybe JV goes down with TJ. And so technically, on the dotted line, you could justify this as not a rebuild year (again), just like you could every year.

But as far as a plan goes, there's obviously not one for 2013. The best I can figure, at this point, is that the hope is one or two of the guys inked for 2013 play good enough to reject a qualifying offer next October, and the TWins come out with comp picks. Keep kicking that rock down the road, as per vintage Jr.

That was not supposed to be how the Twins did things in the post-TF era.

I'm a Kool Aid guy obviously... This batch doesn't have enough sugar in it but down the hatch.

My hope will be simple. Keep the 6 plus ERA guys off the mound. If anyone is throwing 6 plus... replace him with the next option. If they can do that. This team will be much better and more importantly... We can find out about the rest of the team... Because they will be in ball games... If they are in ball games... We can better assess what they have to offer and what we have for 2014. This could be TR's plan. Or not.

johnnydakota
01-26-2013, 10:02 PM
We also got Pelfrey, Worley, May, Meyer, Harden.... Not all will help immediately but the Twins did bring in pitching depth currently, and some real talent for the future.

So we applaud 3 m.a.s.h.victums a future reliever and a single A player?

johnnydakota
01-26-2013, 10:06 PM
Ryan's comments concerning Correia have at least hinted to a bit of buyer's remorse. Whether that perceived remorse means anything moving forward or not, well, I doubt anything actually changes.
Personally i think Terry is setting it up to blame the scouts if Correia fails and to take credit for him if he is mediocre.

johnnydakota
01-26-2013, 10:13 PM
I agree with you... Marcum was the bottom of the upper rung in my assessment... And the last one available... I wanted one of those guys and getting one of those guys was my personal litmus test for the off season. I'm bummed... But... It was my assessment and my plan. TR isn't following my plan and I won't throw rocks at him because he isn't.

Cdog... North... Glunn... Chief... Jokin... Puck... Shane... Hammer... Nurse and Charger would all have different plans than I... And different plans from each other.

For reasons past our understanding... This is TR's plan and come what May.

yup he got May

twinsnorth49
01-26-2013, 10:33 PM
RB, I'm a TR fan, I think he's a shrewd baseball man and has a firm grasp of his plan regarding the big picture. But I think it's fair at this point to lay some criticism at his feet in the way he has handled this off-season as it relates to 2013.

One of two things are evident, the plan he strongly indicated he was going to implement early on, was never really a plan and he was in full spin mode or he actually thinks he fulfilled that plan and is satisfied with the results. Either way, it's unacceptable as it relates to payroll, the players he's acquired and the message he's trying to send the fans.

old nurse
01-26-2013, 10:36 PM
I agree with you... Marcum was the bottom of the upper rung in my assessment... And the last one available... I wanted one of those guys and getting one of those guys was my personal litmus test for the off season. I'm bummed... But... It was my assessment and my plan. TR isn't following my plan and I won't throw rocks at him because he isn't.

Cdog... North... Glunn... Chief... Jokin... Puck... Shane... Hammer... Nurse and Charger would all have different plans than I... And different plans from each other.

For reasons past our understanding... This is TR's plan and come what May.

I would think that I won't get too many boulders thrown at me for no proof but I think most on this board have an attachment for the aTwins. Many on this board have ideas and a plan about what should be done. All are fairly confident in their thinking. None of us have any power for those plans. TR had a plan when he took over. It worked fairly well even though it took a while. Is there a plan now? He isn't going to share. What players you target and why only gives information to others that they could use against him. If you project out what players might be available that you like it might be considered tampering. It might cause other teams to take a harder look. He does tell you which of his players he likes.

Top Gun
01-26-2013, 10:42 PM
Before Shaun Marcum signed a one-year contract with the Mets on Friday, he had talks with both the Rangers and Mariners.

This would seem to indicate that both squads are still in the market for a starting pitcher. The Rangers indicated on Thursday that they aren't pursuing Kyle Lohse, widely regarded as the top free agent starter remaining on the market.
Related: Mariners (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/sea/mariners), Rangers (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/tex/rangers), Kyle Lohse (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/mlb/3293/kyle-lohse)

howeda7
01-26-2013, 11:03 PM
That would have to mean you were never competitive or you have never offered market value. Name someone who has ever come? Players view the cold weather as a negative. History as everyone tells me doesn't lie. That's the Sabermetrics of this situation.

The weather? Maybe for the Timberwolves. An MLB player won't be in town until April 1st and can be long gone by November 1st at the latest. Zero reason to avoid signing with the Twins because it's 'too cold.' Even folks who buy the misconception about the weather generally aren't going to be afraid of living here during the summer.

In general, there's no reason the Twins can't be similar to St. Louis, both in terms of payroll and marketability.

The Wise One
01-26-2013, 11:23 PM
On flippable assets, you're not really getting this. You build depth from below, in that you then create expendable tradeable & coveted assets- these theoretically become Perkins and Burton- if they continue their progression. Hopefully, they can be traded for prospects at positions of weakness as the position players come off the books and the draft picks move up to take the place of your tradeable assets from a now-developing position of strength. The WAR question in your first paragraph is key, it's not so much a goal as "turning a season around" all by itself. Create areas of strength and depth in as efficient a manner as possible, thus developing incremental improvements in each aspect of the team. Making a proposed turnaround in the bullpen in the proportions close to what I outlined is certain to make the 1000s of players and agents around the various levels of baseball sit up and take notice, particularly the bounty of potential FA starters this offseason, for example, in making the Twins recognized as a team serious about developing a consistent winner.

Range of opinion on the SPs I proffered? Their numbers and projections suggest how mediocre to very good they are, opinions may vary, sure. Jackson went to the Cubs, Marcum to the Mets, McCarthy to the D-Backs. Sorry... but Winning/Losing wasn't the make or break factor on ANY these deals. Nuff said here.

On the proposed SP pick-ups, even those such as the lowly #4-5 projections like Lannan and Francis, they sadly all represent potential upgrades, to at least some, if not most, on this lowly Twins pitching depth chart, and they were available for spit, and represented potential value when compared to Correia or Saunders. Again, incremental improvement-seeking, building the franchise back up one brick at a time, finding the next Burton, Dickey, Diamond along the way is all part of that dynamic process.

A 1989 K car with 200000 miles on it would be an upgrade over 1 1981 K car with 240000 miles on it. Incremental improvement and you are still left with a piece of junk.
Flipable assests. You are going to trade starting with a a bobby pin. 400 trades later get a Porche? You watch too much TV
Good night. I am done with this topic. Go post the last word as you always apeear to do.

Riverbrian
01-27-2013, 01:56 AM
RB, I'm a TR fan, I think he's a shrewd baseball man and has a firm grasp of his plan regarding the big picture. But I think it's fair at this point to lay some criticism at his feet in the way he has handled this off-season as it relates to 2013.

One of two things are evident, the plan he strongly indicated he was going to implement early on, was never really a plan and he was in full spin mode or he actually thinks he fulfilled that plan and is satisfied with the results. Either way, it's unacceptable as it relates to payroll, the players he's acquired and the message he's trying to send the fans.

i don't know if fair is the right word but I certainly understand the criticism.

If no one was criticizing... This forum would float away into nothingness... If no one was defending... It would sink to the bowels of hell.

I am at the point where I can't even say that I'm defending his moves in total thus far. I'm defending his right to finish the job. At some point... You gotta make a call one way or another... Terry Ryan can rebuild this club or he can't. I'm trying to trust that he can.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 04:57 AM
I'm a Kool Aid guy obviously... This batch doesn't have enough sugar in it but down the hatch.

My hope will be simple. Keep the 6 plus ERA guys off the mound. If anyone is throwing 6 plus... replace him with the next option. If they can do that. This team will be much better and more importantly... We can find out about the rest of the team... Because they will be in ball games... If they are in ball games... We can better assess what they have to offer and what we have for 2014. This could be TR's plan. Or not.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Not the greatest plan. But sounds solid to me.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 05:11 AM
The weather? Maybe for the Timberwolves. An MLB player won't be in town until April 1st and can be long gone by November 1st at the latest. Zero reason to avoid signing with the Twins because it's 'too cold.' Even folks who buy the misconception about the weather generally aren't going to be afraid of living here during the summer.

In general, there's no reason the Twins can't be similar to St. Louis, both in terms of payroll and marketability.

I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing.

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

I'm on your side about MN now - I'm just defending TRs challenge. Let's hear your sell as TR/GM.........

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 05:19 AM
Sounds like a solid plan to me. Not the greatest plan. But sounds solid to me.
Don't play ****ty players. Quite the master plan you guys are agreeing on here.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 05:24 AM
Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?
The only selling point to be made to Lohse should be this: "Don't let the door stop you this time. Finish the job."

(You really couldn't find a worse example than Lohse for this hypothetical.)

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 05:33 AM
Loshe is the last guy standing was my only reason - Good point though :) . Sell me on FA "A" then - Why should I come to the Twins?

This article explains Ryans plan (satisfactory or not to your thought process) - But explains his philosophy. Let's see how season pans out and if the Twins are a better product. Plus let's see if we get more useable products (AAA prospects) via mid season trades to build upon. Let the man work his plan. Terry Ryan: Minnesota Twins Will Not be Fixed Via Free Agency (http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2013/01/26/minnesota-twins-terry-ryan-believes-free-agency-is-not-the-answer/)

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:03 AM
Mets state they have Marcum penciled in as thier 5th starter.
MLB.com Hot Stove | Mets address rotation with addition of Marcum - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25572011&topic_id=40172882&c_id=mlb)

and

MLB.com Hot Stove | Saunders looks forward to playing with Ibanez, Morse - Video | MLB.com: Multimedia (http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25571397&topic_id=40172882&c_id=mlb)

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 07:14 AM
This article explains Ryans plan (satisfactory or not to your thought process) - But explains his philosophy. Let's see how season pans out and if the Twins are a better product. Plus let's see if we get more useable products (AAA prospects) via mid season trades to build upon. Let the man work his plan. Terry Ryan: Minnesota Twins Will Not be Fixed Via Free Agency (http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2013/01/26/minnesota-twins-terry-ryan-believes-free-agency-is-not-the-answer/)
The problem with his logic is, you also can't "fix" a team solely through your farm system. The good teams tend to have strong returns on both fronts. They draft well for a solid core of a team, and spend some smart money on the market to supplement their roster holes. Ryan seems content on punting the entire FA aspect of the equation, despite having numerous gaping holes, primarily in the rotation and middle infield. With little help on the near horizon for either of those situations, a little aggression on the free agent front may be the only near-to-mid term way to address them, even if it's with mediocre players that serve as upgrades to the dreck that's been manning the spots in recent years. Build exclusively one-dimensionally, and you get the Royals of the past decade, with always a bunch of prospects "on the verge of breaking out" but never enough to field a competitive team. And then, as soon as another group comes up, the older ones have established themselves and priced their way out of town.

Ryan, or anyone trying to defend his inactivity, can claim this was a "weak crop" of FA this year, but does anyone have faith in Ryan making a splash in a "better crop" next year or any year going forward? Good players command more money in the first place, and with revenues going up across the board next year it will likely only add to the prices players will be seeking on the open market. When a GM is notoriously against "overpaying" for free agents, then he's probably not going to be interested in delving into a market which will be rapidly accelerating itself beyond what he considers "fair pricing".

We're not in the "Holy cow, Kirby Puckett is making a million dollars a year!" days anymore, much to Ryan's chagrin. Values go up every year, and the contracts he considered "too high" this year will be laughable offers for comparable players going forward. He's still got his "Dome in the late 90's budget" mentality when it comes to spending money, and while trying to find bargains is fine, when you need players to improve significant portions of your roster to, whaddayacallit, "not terrible" standards, you aren't going to find enough of those players by rolling the dice 5 times on guys like Harden whose arm was manufactured in the same factory as Shannon Stewart's hamstrings. Sometimes, you have to pay to bring in some mid-tier guys (unlike Kevin Correia, who still inexplicably got paid more, and for more years, than superior options) to supplement your existing players. On a good team, they're ideally chewing up innings on the back end of the rotation, but on the Twins, they would be key components of the team being less terrible than the past two years. They shouldn't be expected to be world beaters, but they won't be Blackburn, either. (Except Correia, because he very well may be Blackburn 2.0.)

Highabove
01-27-2013, 08:06 AM
Ryan is running the Twins as a small market franchise. He cannot do it any other way.
Unfortunately, the small market aspect ends when you step up to the ticket window.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 08:41 AM
Don't play ****ty players. Quite the master plan you guys are agreeing on here.

Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 08:43 AM
I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here?

Let's start with getting our GM to do that much before we worry about the rest.

old nurse
01-27-2013, 08:50 AM
In May when Zach Wheeler is pitching lights out in AAA and Wilpon is still needing money Marcum will be available.

Riverbrian
01-27-2013, 09:45 AM
Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

You are gonna keep coming... Directly or indirectly... You really want to start something... It's obvious to all what you are doing... Ill just take the punches... And keep asking you to ignore me... My 4th request.

Brock Beauchamp
01-27-2013, 10:44 AM
Terry Ryan is the GM Fro.....That means he is the general manager.

That means Terry Ryan is in charge of general managing the Twins. Who play in Minnesota......that's who he general manages.

He has a plan. It's to have players play baseball that he general manages. I believe in him.....afterall....he's generally managing them.

I LOLed.

Alex
01-27-2013, 11:12 AM
I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing..

Please cite at least one story or report where the Twins matched someone's offer and they went somewhere else simply because it's "Minnesota." Then, find a story where they actually exceeded someone's offer. We have seen people reference stories where the Twins offered less than everyone else or didn't make an offer at all, so where has this idea of competitive offers and then FA turning them down come from simply because its MN?

This has become a popular narrative for people defending their lack of spending money with no proof.

Willihammer
01-27-2013, 12:04 PM
Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

yeah, Boras clients. They're so fickle about non-monetary incentives.

Give it a rest

Fanatic Jack
01-27-2013, 12:22 PM
Darren,

Is the best and most honest reporter in the State of Minnesota. KFAN was out of their minds to let him go and KSTP and ESPN 1500 were smart enough to hire him. We the fans are lucky to have him. Most reporters won't report anything negative regarding team moves, but many times he has disagreed with the front office. You just don't see that very often these days. If he said the Twins did not offer Marcum contract, it's a fact, they didn't.

raindog
01-27-2013, 12:25 PM
Hey, I happen to enjoy Riverbrian's writing style. It's somehow...magical. And original.

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 01:49 PM
You are gonna keep coming... Directly or indirectly... You really want to start something... It's obvious to all what you are doing... Ill just take the punches... And keep asking you to ignore me... My 4th request.

RB, don't feed the trolls, it's what you're doing just by responding to the snark. It's the childish garbage directed at you that will deter others from coming here, too bad some of the administrators decide to just pile on instead of taking the high road they lecture others to stay on.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 02:00 PM
RB, don't feed the trolls, it's what you're doing just by responding to the snark. It's the childish garbage directed at you that will deter others from coming here, too bad some of the administrators decide to just pile on instead of taking the high road they lecture others to stay on.
The number of thin-skinned, easily offended folks on the board are definitely a huge draw to newcomers though. Quite a selling point.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 02:06 PM
The number of thin-skinned, easily offended folks on the board are definitely a huge draw to newcomers though. Quite a selling point.

While being condescending towards others.

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 02:08 PM
The number of thin-skinned, easily offended folks on the board are definitely a huge draw to newcomers though. Quite a selling point.

If you're referring to me, you're delusional. Personally I could care less but others that claim they do shouldn't be talking out of both sides of their mouths.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 02:13 PM
If you're referring to me, you're delusional. Personally I could care less but others that claim they do shouldn't be talking out of both sides of their mouths.
No, just the folks you're claiming are being "trolled" by having the inanity of their statements called out. God forbid anyone feel the need to speak against mindless drivel in what could be perceived as a "not nice" way. Sometimes the truth is just blunt and unfortunate.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 02:22 PM
RB, don't feed the trolls, it's what you're doing just by responding to the snark. It's the childish garbage directed at you that will deter others from coming here, too bad some of the administrators decide to just pile on instead of taking the high road they lecture others to stay on.

Um, I'm not trolling, I'm being snarky to a series of posts stuffed with inane nonsense. However, I'm sure posters will flock to this site when they see all kinds of unchallenged 6 paragraph posts that are boiled down to this epic point: "Terry Ryan is GM of the Twins."

At some point you have to think about what you're trying to say and if your argument for it makes any sense. Just like any other place where there is a free exchange of ideas, if you can't formulate a meaningful point and then compound it with vapid nonsense - your not going to be taken seriously and you'll face ridicule. We've seen a rash of dumb posts lately ranging from conspiracies to nonsense. That's not going to bring in folks either.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 02:50 PM
I will share my GM thoughts (not that anyone cares):
If I am going to depend on my Farm system moving forward and like all prospects, you never know who is going to pan out until they do - I am going to purchase high end FAs as they fit in around my Top prospects. I'm not going to spend money on high end FA on a position that could be a position of strength in a year or two. I am going to offer 1 year deals to low risk FAs and see what I have from my young guys in a year. Hicks might end up sucking as might Sano, Arcia and Meyer. Then that opens a whole new market of FAs we might need to sign. Just saying. If we work this approach and have a majority of the team personnel on rookie contracts in a year or two - We can change our 20 year track record and purchase high end need FAs moving forward. Lets work from prospects to FAs instead of purchasing FAs and hoping prospects fit in where needed. This way you have a win win situation. Not this year, but from 2014 until..............

My philosophy. I don't want band aid fixes for the next 3 years, because we have too many declining vets with higher than deserved contracts that we are tied to. Everyone is asking for a FO change of philosophy. We got that in last years draft. Let's be patient and see if we overpay for quality Top FA help when truly needed (playoff contenders). Getting excited over 7-10 extra wins right now does nothing for me as a fan. I want to get excited over hard play on the field and player progress from my called up prospects. That's what gets me excited, because then I know good things are coming.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 03:01 PM
we have too many declining vets with higher than deserved contracts that we are tied to.
No. The Twins have one. It's Mauer. And he isn't necessarily in the "decline" phase of his career just yet, but he's the only one with a significant contract that carries him beyond 2014. That is nowhere near "too many" long term deals. Jesus Christ.

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 03:35 PM
C'mon Fro, I appreciate the snark as much as you but there is a difference between speaking out against what you deem to be "mindless drivel" and just gratuitously ridiculing someone. I think Lev made his point earlier, the last one was just being a d**k. I'll take back my troll reference.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 03:41 PM
C'mon Fro, I appreciate the snark as much as you but there is a difference between speaking out against what you deem to be "mindless drivel" and just gratuitously ridiculing someone. I think Lev made his point earlier, the last one was just being a d**k. I'll take back my troll reference.

I won't make excuses for good snark, especially when someone seems unable to improve their ability to make a meaningful point without a sea of irrelevance surrounding it.

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 03:47 PM
Um, I'm not trolling, I'm being snarky to a series of posts stuffed with inane nonsense. However, I'm sure posters will flock to this site when they see all kinds of unchallenged 6 paragraph posts that are boiled down to this epic point: "Terry Ryan is GM of the Twins."

At some point you have to think about what you're trying to say and if your argument for it makes any sense. Just like any other place where there is a free exchange of ideas, if you can't formulate a meaningful point and then compound it with vapid nonsense - your not going to be taken seriously and you'll face ridicule. We've seen a rash of dumb posts lately ranging from conspiracies to nonsense. That's not going to bring in folks either.

You keep referencing what was said in post 64, which you first responded to in post 65 and then again a few posts later and then again almost 30 posts later. I have no problem with you taking issue with what was said and calling someone out, nicely or not, if someone is going to post they have to know how to take a shot, but at what point are you just kicking someone once they're down?

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 03:53 PM
but at what point are you just kicking someone once they're down?

When they improve their content and I keep mocking them. If the points don't get any more meaningful, insightful, interesting, or (god forbid!) well stated, then what do you expect as a poster? I appreciate that you feel the need to police good form in debate, but my snark wouldn't exist if there wasn't a continued lack of intelligent content.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 04:11 PM
C'mon Fro, I appreciate the snark as much as you but there is a difference between speaking out against what you deem to be "mindless drivel" and just gratuitously ridiculing someone. I think Lev made his point earlier, the last one was just being a d**k. I'll take back my troll reference.
I'm not one to feel bad for someone who may have their feelings hurt because they state something completely stupid and then have that stupidity pointed out. If they continue to post similarly, then the responses will remain similar. If they bring something more substantial to the table, the response will change in kind. I've seen it happen before, and would imagine it's not impossible that it would happen again.

I've known many of these posters for many years, some upwards of a decade, and snarky responses (good natured, playful, or otherwise) is part of their/our makeup. The ones I've known come from a board that had a relatively high level of discourse on most topics, and yes, we can be snippy when some responses fall into the Dickbert-esque soundbite level. There will always be a variety of opinions, but when one side tries to throw out facts, and the other counters with things like "give me a team of Nick Puntos any day of the week, he just knows how to play ball!" (just a hypothetical example) it can be frustrating. Snark is a large portion of this group's natural response to something incredibly vague and mindless being used as a counterpoint to specifics in a discussion. If one half of the discussion doesn't seem to want to make an effort to give a response worth being taken seriously, then the other half probably won't respond with any kind of seriousness.

The Wise One
01-27-2013, 04:49 PM
Definitions on Twins Daily

"What I said is snarky" meaning: Excuse to be rude
"Troll" Why do you post what I disagree with
"Thin skinned" How dare you call me on my bad behavior.

raindog
01-27-2013, 05:09 PM
The poster you guys seem to be rallying against is as good-natured as anyone on this board. It's pretty easy to just skip over his posts if they bother you. There is a difference between being snarky and just being an *******.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 05:18 PM
Definitions on Twins Daily

"What I said is snarky" meaning: Excuse to be rude
"Troll" Why do you post what I disagree with
"Thin skinned" How dare you call me on my bad behavior.
Go ahead and add "Why are you being mean?" to "why did you call out my stupidity?"

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 05:25 PM
Go ahead and add "Why are you being mean?" to "why did you call out my stupidity?"

Don't forget "Why is it bad to have a different opinion" meaning "Hey, don't call out why my ideas are factually wrong to borderline insane"

PseudoSABR
01-27-2013, 05:31 PM
I appreciate that you feel the need to police good form in debate.Quoted for irony and posterity.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 05:31 PM
The poster you guys seem to be rallying against is as good-natured as anyone on this board. It's pretty easy to just skip over his posts if they bother you. There is a difference between being snarky and just being an *******.
Forrest Gump was a good-natured person. Doesn't mean I would have to hold his take on things in an equal regard to everyone else.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 05:33 PM
Quoted for irony and posterity.
Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

snepp
01-27-2013, 05:34 PM
This thread could use a serious dose of Joe Saunders news, good, bad, or otherwise.

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 05:35 PM
Don't forget "Why is it bad to have a different opinion" meaning "Hey, don't call out why my ideas are factually wrong to borderline insane"

Don't forget " I think your post is stupid" meaning " Perhaps you didn't hear me the first 12 times, " I think your post is stupid and I'm fishing for some likes in my profile".

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 05:44 PM
No. The Twins have one. It's Mauer. And he isn't necessarily in the "decline" phase of his career just yet, but he's the only one with a significant contract that carries him beyond 2014. That is nowhere near "too many" long term deals. Jesus Christ.

I'm not sensitive that way. I don't mind the sarcasim.
The "Too Many" was referring to the FAs you wanted to purchase this season (Marcum / Jackson / McCarthy / etc.) for at least 3 years - not the people already on your team now (Mauer).

None of the above guys (FAs) are worth 3 years to me. 1 or 2 years sure - Not 3 years - Thats all.

PseudoSABR
01-27-2013, 05:56 PM
Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not championing the poor efforts some people put into their posts; I've spoken out about it many times. I was just giving the Sheriff of Discourse a little guff.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 06:02 PM
I'm not sensitive that way. I don't mind the sarcasim.
The "Too Many" was referring to the FAs you wanted to purchase this season (Marcum / Jackson / McCarthy / etc.) for at least 3 years - not the people already on your team now (Mauer).

None of the above guys (FAs) are worth 3 years to me. 1 or 2 years sure - Not 3 years - Thats all.
And none of them are part of the Twins, so your using the statement (and I quote) " I don't want band aid fixes for the next 3 years, because we have too many declining vets with higher than deserved contracts that we are tied to." is preposterous. After this season the Twins will be on the hook for (roughly, without looking up the exact figures right now) $50M, if not less, depending on if guys like Willingham get moved before 2014. For a team whose budget could likely sit comfortably at twice that amount, it has all the signs of a piss-poor effort to put together a competitive product after talking a good game about the new stadium finally putting them in the revenue bracket where they could make the next step forward for the franchise.

Riverbrian
01-27-2013, 06:04 PM
I have no intention of starting a flame war here. Didn't intend it When I posted my "stupid" idea of trusting the GM even when my confidence has been shaken. I don't intend it now.

This site could be such a Godsend to the over the top Twins Fan like myself. Many of us are like me. Our Twins and baseball passion has branched beyond what our real life local friends can compete with. Our degree of Twins passion leaves us isolated for someone to discuss with and this is what makes Twinsdaily a special place. At least it could be... But I fear the dark side is winning.

There are so many posters that I agree with and posters that I disagree with from time to time but I respect every one of them... Even when I post a contrary opinion.

Posters here range from retired 70 plus farmers to 12 year olds and i don't believe we know exactly who we are responding to. A 12 year old could be torn apart... Regardless... I think all should be welcome but it ain't my board. Tolerance is a lost art I guess.

Im not gonna defend my level of stupidity. I shouldn't have to and neither should anyone else... I don't claim to be superior... I claim to have an opinion and have never been afraid to share it. Maybe I mis-assessed the purpose of this gathering place.

I've just personally had it with one poster and I've decided to no longer care about any discussion with him going forward and am kindly asking for him to ignore my posts. My skin is of decent thickness... I have no problem with snark or snark in my direction. I can laugh at it... I really can... i just think that this is miles from the definition of snark. It has surpassed that.

Other than a flame war of sorts... Asking to be ignored is the only sensible option that I can think of.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 06:05 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not championing the poor efforts some people put into their posts; I've spoken out about it many times. I was just giving the Sheriff of Discourse a little guff.
I expect no less from the two of you. (But the social work thing wouldn't be entirely nonsensical, either.)

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 06:06 PM
Quoted for irony and posterity.

Yeah, I'm sure that analogy really works well. Do tell, you're comping the Twins 4th starter position with....what was it?

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:10 PM
Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

What is a lesser poster? Guys who don't feel your point of view. :)

It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?
I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 06:11 PM
Our degree of Twins passion leaves us isolated for someone to discuss with and this is what makes Twinsdaily a special place. At least it could be... But I fear the dark side is winning.

Passion can be negatively critical as well. I think this is where this issue has become so divisive lately. It's ok to be a fan and be upset or angry. It should be perfectly understandable why that is. All of us still posting negatively about the Twin's offseason still care enough about the team to be upset. Hearing inane conspiracy theories and lectures from people that we aren't being true fans to be critical or that we're not Terry Ryan so how dare we say anything, etc. is vapid and obnoxious.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 06:13 PM
Don't forget " I think your post is stupid" meaning " Perhaps you didn't hear me the first 12 times, " I think your post is stupid and I'm fishing for some likes in my profile".

Meh, the like crowd is the 4-5 people holding this bizarre stance that no one should say anything negative. You keep saying I repeat myself, well, if it was sinking in the first time for some people perhaps I wouldn't have to. Hard to be snarky without being given ammo for it.

Unless you're snepp. (Now THAT's fishing for a like!)

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:21 PM
1) Fielder selected Detroit because he grew up there and felt a connection in addition to the money.
2) Aramis Ramirez selected Milwaukee because he wanted his kid (in Cicago) to watch him play on TV and that would not be possible if he went to West coast (games on Pacific time).
3) Grienke almost selected Texas because his wife is from there - but Angel FO out bid the world to get him. Thank God for that TV contract they have.
4) Swisher is a home town guy who will probably become the face of Indians. That will probably lead to FO career with organization after he retires.
Money will generally be the end game, but there are also other reasons / factors these guys sign. We need to find that other "it" to get these guys here. I never hear people talk about why a guy should sign here besides money. They are not all hired guns.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 06:23 PM
Is this "champion of the lesser poster" thing that appears to be happening the beginning of some kind of advanced degree in social work?

What is a lesser poster? Guys who don't feel your point of view. :)

It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?
I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?

Offering people market value of their worth, while not being in the twilight of their career, is a good starting point..because they dont now. Or just target guys from Minnesota so they Can play for their home team at a discount (oh wait a second....)

snepp
01-27-2013, 06:24 PM
(Now THAT's fishing for a like!)

Ask and ye shall receive?

Nick Nelson
01-27-2013, 06:25 PM
Fro and Lev: Just cut it out. You might think you're doing the world a big favor by pointing out how stupid everyone else is but no one wants to hear it. The "Ignore" feature is readily available if you don't care for what a particular user has to say. You don't need to publicly ridicule them in an effort to prove to everyone how smart you are. Much of this "snark" is neither clever nor funny, but simply mean-spirited. Piling onto a good-natured poster after he's politely asked you to stop repeatedly is pathetic and embarrassing.

Why don't you let us worry about what will bring new users to the site and stop terrorizing/annoying the people who are already here?

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 06:28 PM
Meh, the like crowd is the 4-5 people holding this bizarre stance that no one should say anything negative.

You keep saying this but outside of one notable "the sun is always shining" poster, I don't get it. I know there are a few posters who tend to steer clear of saying anything negative but you seem to go out of your way to take that as some personal affront to your right to be negative. I don't take anyone's sunny disposition to mean I don't have a right to be negative about some things.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:30 PM
Passion can be negatively critical as well. I think this is where this issue has become so divisive lately. It's ok to be a fan and be upset or angry. It should be perfectly understandable why that is. All of us still posting negatively about the Twin's offseason still care enough about the team to be upset. Hearing inane conspiracy theories and lectures from people that we aren't being true fans to be critical or that we're not Terry Ryan so how dare we say anything, etc. is vapid and obnoxious.

People get your passion. They just want some creative idea other than "We have more money to spare. Offer more - Offer more." GMs make some excellent decisions (the trades) and GMs make some bad decisions (FAs) throughout baseball. Lets see where TR takes the Twins. He has been the guy who makes the decision for 1 year. Assistants don't make decisions - GMs do. Let the man work his plan. I think it funny how quick people call for a guys throat on this board.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:37 PM
Offering people market value of their worth, while not being in the twilight of their career, is a good starting point..because they dont now. Or just target guys from Minnesota so they Can play for their home team at a discount (oh wait a second....)

I get everyones point who thinks this way. I'm stating that this has been the Twins way for 28 years with Free Agency. Ownership and FO changed their draft philosophy in 2012. That's the 1st Step. They improved farm system with trades. That's the 2nd step. Let's see if they change their philosophy with FAs as they move forward. Asking for a complete change in philosophy in 1 year might be a bit much. Especially when you are calling for TRs head. Can we at least enjoy the first changes of the last 28 years.

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 06:43 PM
People get your passion. They just want some creative idea other than "We have more money to spare. Offer more - Offer more." GMs make some excellent decisions (the trades) and GMs make some bad decisions (FAs) throughout baseball. Lets see where TR takes the Twins. He has been the guy who makes the decision for 1 year. Assistants don't make decisions - GMs do. Let the man work his plan. I think it funny how quick people call for a guys throat on this board.

I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 06:44 PM
It appears that some (not all) have felt this way about FO decisions since ownership took over 28 years ago. That being said - Who are these mad man complaining about the same issues of $ being spent?
I would like to see discussions of some inovative ways to get FAs here. Its obvious FO hasn't been listening for some 10,220+ days. Is money the only thing that will get FAs to MN?
Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 06:52 PM
I get everyones point who thinks this way. I'm stating that this has been the Twins way for 28 years with Free Agency. Ownership and FO changed their draft philosophy in 2012. That's the 1st Step. They improved farm system with trades. That's the 2nd step. Let's see if they change their philosophy with FAs as they move forward. Asking for a complete change in philosophy in 1 year might be a bit much. Especially when you are calling for TRs head. Can wer at least enjoy the first changes of the last 28 years.

The only logical idea behind the whole free agency thing is either they literally will not pay market value for free agents.. or they really didn't like their chances as a team this year and opted to keep their money. Maybe when they have better pieces in place they will, but it'll be a few years before we can confirm or deny that theory. Then again, when this team had such a need to be supplanted with free agent arms And they still didn't, its easy to see the pessimist side of things that they flat out won't pay out the money need for a quality free agent arm.

as far as other theories for free agents Signing, it can be lumped into three categories: money, chance to win, personal ties (family or beginning of career was there, play for a specific manager, etc). I highly doubt if someone likes a city to buy a vacation home there, or the weather, or if they have their favorite restaurant chain there will be any reasons to outweigh the previous top three.

If the Twins want better free agents to come here, it really is that simple: Actually offer them a contract and don't low ball them.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 06:55 PM
I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.

True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 06:59 PM
True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 07:01 PM
I don't know what else anyone can add to this. What haven't they done For 28 years? Pay free agents market value. What can they do moving forward to get more free agents to sign with them? Pay market value.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 07:02 PM
Money is the best way to get free agents ANYWHERE. It isn't just "cold weather" (since the baseball season falls smack in the middle of the best time of year, Minnesota-weather-wise) that is keeping guys away. I mean, guys sign to play in Texas when it's over 95 degrees virtually the entire months of July and August. There's always going to be defining factors for any given player, but the problem that many here are pointing out is that Ryan still seems to work off a Metrodome mentality when it comes to his budget. He's so concerned with not paying what he considers "too much" that he's not realizing that what he considers "too much" is where the market is just at these days. "$9M a year for a pitcher? That's what I was paying Brad Radke to be our ace just 10 years ago! It's outrageous!" Then he somehow outrageously gives $10M over multiple years to a dumpster-dive like Correia (whom they for some reason overvalued early in the signing period), and let equal to possibly better players go elsewhere for less money and/or years.

When the Twins turned it around in the early 2000's, they caught lightning in a bottle when half a dozen guys all matured and came up at the same time. From the late 90's to early 2000's, guys like Doug, AJ, Koskie, Hunter, Jacque, Guzman, Rivas, and Ortiz were all basically forced into roles due to the lack of any other options, and they played well enough that the team could eventually be competitive. The chances of having to play that many young guys and all of them holding their own again is very slim. (And the upper levels of the minors aren't exactly busting with non-outfield position prospects that are screaming out for rapid advancement.) With the state of the roster right now, the team for 2014 could basically be Mauer, with prospects everywhere else in the lineup. Add to that a very young pitching staff, and that's a whole lot of dice rolls you're hoping to not crap out on coming off of what will likely be three pretty miserable seasons in a row.

Now, there can be some spots that look bright going through 2013. Hopefully Hicks comes up at some point and holds his own at the plate. He's a premium defender, so if he can man CF and not be disgraceful at the plate, that's a huge building block. Ideally, at least one of Meyer or May looks solid enough in the high minors to give some hope that we get one guy that looks like a #3 or better in 2014 and beyond. Gibson rebounding from injury and throwing a decent 125 IP would be a bright spot as well.

But the reality is, there are still a lot of questionably talented players who will be getting a lot of IP and a lot of PAs this coming season. There's good reason to be plenty skeptical, and pinning every hope for improvement on "the farm system" the way Ryan seems to be doing doesn't give a whole lot of reason to get your hopes up for at least a few more years. At some point, the FO needs to accept that Ryan's idea of "overpaying" isn't overpaying, it's where the market is and make him adjust accordingly or find someone else who will. If they're sitting at a $50M payroll next offseason and the only building blocks still being brought in are Correia-level roster filler or fliers on guys coming off injuries, then something drastic needs to be done to shake up the FO and get the franchise to be a player for actual, useful free agents. The farm system just isn't going to be providing an entire effective 25-man roster around Mauer anytime soon, or even by the end of his gargantuan contract.

All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 07:05 PM
True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't
There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 07:10 PM
All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.
The thing is, Ryan isn't "outside the box". It's the same box he's been in for close to 20 years. And having two "Saber guys" isn't a huge paradigm shift. Neither is drafting hard throwing pitchers. (The past handful of drafts have been peppered with those kind of guys in the first 10 rounds.) Ryan will get his few years, no question, but the process so far has been entirely the "tearing down" part without a whole lot of hope that a serious "building up" phase is anywhere close.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 07:16 PM
I'm not sure what the point here was. I'm going to let the Twins know how I feel the best way I can, with my money. (Already have by canceling season tickets) Unfortunately, I know that hurts the team and I know many others are making that same decision.

You're right the Twins have been doing this for a long time, that's precisely the problem. Unless more people speak up with frustration about this tight-fisted approach they probably won't change their ways. I don't hold a lot of hope regardless because I think it's a Pohlad-driven idea. But it's nonetheless frustrating. It doesn't change my appreciation for what they do well (and they do many things well as an organization) but they are completely and utterly failing to use their added resources to improve their team in one critical avenue. As fans, we should be frustrated by that.

My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 07:19 PM
There's nothing any individual fan can do to change this. The FO needs to have a shift somewhere, and maybe it ends up being in an entirely different direction from Ryan. The man has been the GM for the better part of the last 2 decades. Maybe another losing season followed by dropping attendance pushes them to do something else. Maybe the fact that they're still going to be making money regardless of how bad attendance gets means they don't care and nothing changes. They've been devoutly loyal to Ryan through the worst of times, but at least then they had the Metrodome to blame their poorer finances on. That excuse is gone, but the outlook is now as poor in the short-to-mid term as those mid-to-late-90's teams. Maybe a new voice and approach would help at the top, but it seems that as long as the team is running in the black, the Pohlads are probably just fine taking the money to the bank and letting the status quo reign. No individual fan can change that.

We did make the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 didn't we? You could be the Cubs - Pirates - KC - etc. - We made the playoffs just 2 seasons ago. - WOW

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 07:21 PM
My point is you've been saying the same thing for 28 years and they don't hear you. Make them hear you a different way (cancelled season tickets like you said). As to my example about cleaning your room - Are you the parent who ends up grounding your kid because he didn't listen or the one who will say the same thing "day in and day out" until he "hopefully" responds? And if you ground him - at least see if that method works. Don't stand over him while he cleans making your unheard point - heard. It seldom works. Hit him where it hurts and move on.

Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.

lightfoot789
01-27-2013, 07:28 PM
Your analogy is a really poor one, so I'm trying to avoid engaging it. I don't share a relationship with the Twins anything like parent-child. They are a business, one that hopes to keep as many fans happy as is humanly possible. Won't ever keep them all, but that's how it is. As Fro said, the ability for any one fan to radically shift an organization's policies is impossible. That you continue to set up every discussion around that idea is facetious.

I hope Ryan's plan works, I'm sure many components of it will, he's a good GM. But he's leaving out a very important avenue of improving his club by his ridiculous expectations for what the team should and should not do in FA. As a paying customer, that lack of aggressiveness makes me less willing to continue to pay. As I said, that's my choice, but the more people that make that choice the worse the issue gets. (See late 90s) It should worry EVERY Twins fan when the fanbase gets apathetic or annoyed with the club and stops paying to see them play.

I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread :) Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

snepp
01-27-2013, 07:29 PM
Staving off apathy, and the ensuing downward spiral of income and budget levels, should be a big concern. If you wait around too long to make improvements you may find the budget being unsuitable for "overpaying then."

FrodaddyG
01-27-2013, 07:38 PM
Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread :) Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.
So years down the road, when FA prices have continued on a severe upward trend which is about to be bumped even more by an across-the-board influx of TV money, the guy who has spent the last two decades not willing to pay market value will suddenly completely change his stance and begin throwing money around. Does your gut have any stocks I should get in on? (By which I mean avoid like the plague.)

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 07:46 PM
I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread :) Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

I'm sorry, but a few posts earlier you stated "you're about results" but now you have a gut feeling that he is going to buck his trend of not showing results regarding free agency?

Twins Twerp
01-27-2013, 07:53 PM
This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.

edavis0308
01-27-2013, 07:57 PM
This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series. The way to build a competitive team is to draft well and trade well. Terry Ryan built a winner before. He will do it again. Spending ton of money on FA's is not the way you build a winner. Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way. Suck for long enough, stock, restock, and restock your farm system, and develop young players. I have a feeling that the money will be spent when the team is competitive again. The situation was so bad when Ryan took over, that he set out on a 4-5 year plan and will not sway from that.

No one is saying to stock your team with overpaid free agents. They are saying to have your home grown core supplanted with a free agent move here and there to fill weaknesses created by weaknesses in your farm system. We could use FA for league average starting pitching, and a short stop. They are a great need to this team and they wouldn't be blocking any position for a few years (where we would still have a hole at said positions).

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 08:00 PM
The Rays and Nationals did things the right way.

Um, you are aware of the Nationals' activity during FA right?

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 08:12 PM
I get it - I think his (TR) way of building this franchise back to playoff bound is right on point. I want to be good for the next decade and I think his way is the way to do it. Through the draft and trades. When these prospects find their stride (thru process of elimination) - surround those players with key FA acquisitions. Overpay then. Not now. So I'll agree to disagree. Signing off on this thread :) Oh - He will pay more then, because I believe he will, despite no track record for the last 28 years. I just believe and have a gut.

I don't quite understand your reluctance to make this team more competitive now when they have the means to do it. Nobody has any issue with the moves Ryan has made to bolster the team a couple of years from now, it's been supported countless times. What is your issue with anybody that seems to think it's reasonable to spend some money on some players that could help this team in the short-term, which is within their means, and not hurt the team in the future?

Additionally,if you are all about new ideas, would spending money on some decent free agents not qualify as a new idea for a team that has historically never done it?

snepp
01-27-2013, 08:12 PM
*massacre of strawmen*

Number of people that have claimed free agency is how to win a World Series:


0

twinsnorth49
01-27-2013, 08:17 PM
This is a dumb argument. How often does a team other than the Yankees use Free Agency to win a World Series.

Who said anything about the World Series? Most of us are just talking about not being out of contention in the Central by June, is that too much to ask?

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 08:24 PM
I'm not calling for his head, never did. Most aren't. The problem is, in FA, if you aren't at least willing to offer "as much" you won't even be in the conversation. That's all anyone is asking - be competitive in FA because financially they can afford to do so. Expressing frustration with their unwillingness to do so is perfectly fine.
Sorry to disagree , it is here that most think Terry is doing a good job , else where they and I are in fact calling for his head....
most do not believe Mr. Ryan or Mr. Gardenhire can acquire or modivate players to a world series...

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 08:29 PM
Sorry to disagree , it is here that most think Terry is doing a good job , else where they and I are in fact calling for his head....most do not believe Mr. Ryan or Mr. Gardenhire can acquire or modivate players to a world series...

There are many things to like about Ryan, but if he's going to be this averse to utilizing FA to help improve his ballclub, then I think his time has come and gone for this franchise. I'll give him a little more time before I get frustrated enough to call for a change. But I am certainly concerned about being this awful at utilizing such an important part of building a team.

I think the role Gardenhire has is pretty moot overall, I don't worry too much about his influence.

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 08:31 PM
True - But my question is how are you going to make Ownership and FO listen differently this year as opposed to the last 28 years? Why should they take your concerns seriously in 2013? That's like the parent who tells his kid to "clean your room" and he never does. What do you need to do differently (expressing yourself) to make FO hear you? I'm about results. If expressing yourself negatively for 28 years is your plan when there is no change happening - Then yes - I don't get it? I want new ideas to get my point heard. Like telling my kid your grounded until that room is cleaned. And following through!!! I'm about results. Maybe you have a following - Maybe you don't

the twins llc are a sucsess if your the Pohlads, there making vucue dinero . only way to change there thinking is to stop paying for there product....

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 08:33 PM
All great GMs think outside the box. Give TR a chance to fail his way or succeed. He already made a change in his draft philosophy and is listening to Saber guys in the FO. Give him a couple a years to build something. See if you still suck by mid season in 2014 at least.

He didnt listen to his SABR guys on Kevin Correia did he?

Willihammer
01-27-2013, 09:29 PM
Even with the top guys on the market, we would still suck for at least the next two seasons. The Rays and Nationals did things the right way.

Look at the 69 win Nats of 2010, compared to the 80 win 2011 team and the 96 win team last year. They had a couple impact farm guys in Strasburg and Harper, sure, but the core of those teams are the same. The biggest difference is that they upgraded their rotation with Gio and Edwin Jackson last year via free agency and mortgaging their farm.

If you look at the Twins teams who were competitive in the 00s, the core of Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, Span... the core today is not much different. Certainly Willingham and Doumit are strong substitutes for Cuddyer and Kubel. Plouffe could be our best 3b since Koskie.

If those guys all stay healthy, and one or two farm guys are able to have an impact (Hicks, Benson, Mastro, Parmelee), this team is not that far away from contention.

I think everyone wanting to kick the rock down the road needs to consider that the Twins window for contending may very well be closing in 2015 or 2016, not opening.

ThePuck
01-27-2013, 09:40 PM
Look at the 69 win Nats of 2010, compared to the 80 win 2011 team and the 96 win team last year. They had a couple impact farm guys in Strasburg and Harper, sure, but the core of those teams are the same. The biggest difference is that they upgraded their rotation with Gio and Edwin Jackson last year via free agency and mortgaging their farm.

If you look at the Twins teams who were competitive in the 00s, the core of Cuddyer, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, Span... the core today is not much different. Certainly Willingham and Doumit are strong substitutes for Cuddyer and Kubel. Plouffe could be our best 3b since Koskie.

If those guys all stay healthy, and one or two farm guys are able to have an impact (Hicks, Benson, Mastro, Parmelee), this team is not that far away from contention.

I think everyone wanting to kick the rock down the road needs to consider that the Twins window for contending may very well be closing in 2015 or 2016, not opening.

Nationals didn't hurt themselves too much when they got Gio..certainly didn't mortgage their farm too bad...and the best prospect they lost they got back already...AJ Cole. And they also have Gio for at least 4 more years...up to 6

TheLeviathan
01-27-2013, 09:58 PM
Nationals didn't hurt themselves too much when they got Gio..certainly didn't mortgage their farm too bad...and the best prospect they lost they got back already...AJ Cole. And they also have Gio for at least 4 more years...up to 6

They also went and signed Werth and Haren to name just two in FA. That comparison by Twerp was ridiculous.

BrentMpls
01-27-2013, 10:11 PM
If you renew your season ticket package, you get 10% off your spending on CONcessions or on Twins Stuff. Your Kevin Coreria jrsey will be cheaper than any Twins jersey your purchased on-site last year. Hey, any Liriano jerseys left at Twinsfest, or were they apckaged as twofers with Valencia or Baker jerseys.

That Pohlad-generous 10% off only applies to certain CONcessions I'm afraid. No details on what that means, but my spidey-sense tells me craft beers wont be on that list, meaning my Surly will still cost me as much as my ticket.

Didn't see any Frankies, but there were some hot Span and Revere Jerseys in stock.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-27-2013, 10:15 PM
Christ, I can't wait for the season to start, these threads are a beat down to read through.

BrentMpls
01-27-2013, 10:15 PM
Then there's guys like Joe Mauer, whom I believe wants to stay in Minnesota for the rest of his career.

For what it is worth, Sid on the Sports Show tonight (which was super creepy and bizarre by having a girl stand in the background, never introduced and silent) said he asked Mauer today about the no-trade clause and Joe says under no circumstances would he waive it.

Twins Twerp
01-27-2013, 11:03 PM
But the nats had to suck first to build a young core. They did supplement their core with werth and edwin jackson. I agree they may not be the best example but we r were they were before they started signing free agents. The twins lineup is going to be worse than it was last year with even worse defense. TR, imo, is building for 2015. Payroll will be wide open even next year. These bargain bin pitchers he has been signing are not for the fans. He is building a strong farm system and signing affordable guys to eat innings. He did pretty well with his signings last year and he will be the busiest gm at tbe trade deadline building for...you guessed it, 2015.

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 11:08 PM
For what it is worth, Sid on the Sports Show tonight (which was super creepy and bizarre by having a girl stand in the background, never introduced and silent) said he asked Mauer today about the no-trade clause and Joe says under no circumstances would he waive it.
easy to get him to drop it , fire jake and make him the highest ever AAA player , after a couple of weeks of riding the bus he will waive his no trade clause....or constantly pinch hit drew butrea for him hahaha lots of ways to modivate a player to want to leave , and the front office is skilled at this, its getting players to want to come here where they have troubles...

johnnydakota
01-27-2013, 11:10 PM
But the nats had to suck first to build a young core. They did supplement their core with werth and edwin jackson. I agree they may not be the best example but we r were they were before they started signing free agents. The twins lineup is going to be worse than it was last year with even worse defense. TR, imo, is building for 2015. Payroll will be wide open even next year. These bargain bin pitchers he has been signing are not for the fans. He is building a strong farm system and signing affordable guys to eat innings. He did pretty well with his signings last year and he will be the busiest gm at tbe trade deadline building for...you guessed it, 2015.

So by signing quality players , and then trading the players for quality prospects, that some how hurts our minor leaques?
Spend to acquire quality assets , then in turn trade the assets for future assets....adding to our prospects....

Kwak
01-28-2013, 12:18 AM
Joining-in late. No personal attacks either. Yes, I believe there is a long-term plan. Pattern the Twins after the Rays with a fallback position of the Marlins. Winning is not defined the same by everyone.Think of the Twins as if they are a common stock. Some have high-growth potential with high reward potential--but also with high risk. Some have modest growth potential, but have a niche that with tight control can consistently post consistent (but not stellar) positive results. I see much of the discussion based on the assumption that the FO is trying to win the WS, or at least always be in contention to win the AL Central. But that need not be the case. If the plan is to consistently operate with a $60-65MM payroll (assumes there will always be a Mauer-type on the team) and make a run whenever but generally to trade the veterans when their salary increases beyond a threshold (or total payroll beyond a threshold) that may well be defined as "winning" by management. Low-risk, consistent, but unspectactular results.

Sadly (for fans who want to see a winner every year) that means disassembling the 2010 team piece by piece (except Mauer) and replacing them with low salary players. Expect losing seasons. Expect to hear some yay-rah-rah spin and the like, "...wait until so-and-so gets to the Twins...". Gallons of Kool-Aid will be poured--but several posters have stated that is "fine", they love the Twins whatever and "trust management to make it all right." Such a policy is valid for business--except that wasn't the pitch I heard when the Twins were asking (pretty much demanding) that the public make a very substantial contribution in construction, maintenance, upgrades costs, but also tax concessions. In my mind, they should be spending now to put a better team on the field in 2013 just as promised in their "request" for a new stadium.

howeda7
01-28-2013, 12:19 AM
I truly do agree. Now give me your selling point to that FA as a GM. How do you get a matched offer FA to come here? Everyone is getting on TR about what he is not doing. Tell me your conversation as GM (besides money) to getr FA here. Because players do care about family and other things when it comes to FA signing.

Sell me (I'm Kyle Loshe and you offered 1 million more than next competitor)..........................Why should I pick MN?

I'm on your side about MN now - I'm just defending TRs challenge. Let's hear your sell as TR/GM.........

Kyle, Pedro Florimon can make a $%^&in play. Let me tell you. Nothing gets by him. He can $%^&ing pick it. On days you pitch, we'll make sure Jamie Carroll plays 2B. You've seen him in the NL. You know he's a $%%^&& human vacuum. We'll even make sure Escobar is at 3B for you. No Plouffe for you. We'll make sure that hot corner is $%%^& covered, Kyle.

Now about the outfield...um Gardy's door is super-reinforced steel....but how's $12 million?

In general there's no great advantage to recruiting FA's to Minnesota, but there's no disadvantage either relative to Detroit, Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, Cincy, etc. etc. It's a nice city. It's a beautiful brand-new ballpark with great facilities. It's a division that can be won without a miracle (would your rather be Baltimore or Toronto?) Will we get the guys with stars in their eyes who have the Yankees after them? No. Can we convince someone to choose MN over all of the places I've mentioned? Why not?

johnnydakota
01-28-2013, 12:33 AM
There are many things to like about Ryan, but if he's going to be this averse to utilizing FA to help improve his ballclub, then I think his time has come and gone for this franchise. I'll give him a little more time before I get frustrated enough to call for a change. But I am certainly concerned about being this awful at utilizing such an important part of building a team.

I think the role Gardenhire has is pretty moot overall, I don't worry too much about his influence.

I didnt like the fact he returned to his former position , but last year he had an idea of what he wanted to do , and while losing players , he did add some to the team , this year , well its like he just sat and waited ,and did nothing ,except trade 2 major leaque players for a handful of magic beans .. maybe they will work out or maybe they wont , only time will tell , but as for adding to the 2013 team , i dont see much , worely if he is healthy is all i see

howeda7
01-28-2013, 12:47 AM
In general, even in 're-building' you should allocate your resources to put the best product on the field. The only difference is that you want to ensure you're not 'blocking' anyone or tying up resources in future years recklessly. In this regard, TR has failed.

Could he have gotten Grienke? Probably not. But the fact that it was dismissed as laughable to even consider is bothersome. The Twins could have gone 6/$150. Not saying they should have, but they could afford it. The fact that we still act more like Oakland/Tampa than St. LouisDetroit is not right. We're not the little engine that could anymore.

Grienke aside, this team can afford a payroll of at least $90 million. The pitching staff was a joke, and much, much more could have been done for it than we have seen so far. Getting Saunders would help. Keeping Baker would have been nice (doesn't preclude going after Pelfrey too). Going after someone like Lannan instead of Corriea. Maybe spending some of the difference/unused $ on an Edwin Jackson. Taking a 'risk' on Marcum instead of Harden. There are many scenarios. But most of them are better than what we got.

glunn
01-28-2013, 12:55 AM
The Orioles have moved on. It is unbelievable how many people on this board simply do not do the math or examine the specifics of what other teams are doing/have done. Saunders has only 3 different options left: Seattle, San Diego and Minnesota. I said this previously to all those wannabe GMs who wanted to give Saunders $10M to $12.5M per year for multiple years. BTB, any "major" free agent will avoid the frozen tundra of Minnesota if at all possible. This is reality. Deal with it. It would take a very special free agent to accept a deal with the Twins. Take that to your ice fishing house and smoke it.

That was a very cold post. And nothing would require a free agent to spend the winter in Minnesota.

jokin
01-28-2013, 01:38 AM
In general, even in 're-building' you should allocate your resources to put the best product on the field. The only difference is that you want to ensure you're not 'blocking' anyone or tying up resources in future years recklessly. In this regard, TR has failed.

Could he have gotten Grienke? Probably not. But the fact that it was dismissed as laughable to even consider is bothersome. The Twins could have gone 6/$150. Not saying they should have, but they could afford it. The fact that we still act more like Oakland/Tampa than St. LouisDetroit is not right. We're not the little engine that could anymore.

Grienke aside, this team can afford a payroll of at least $90 million. The pitching staff was a joke, and much, much more could have been done for it than we have seen so far. Getting Saunders would help. Keeping Baker would have been nice (doesn't preclude going after Pelfrey too). Going after someone like Lannan instead of Corriea. Maybe spending some of the difference/unused $ on an Edwin Jackson. Taking a 'risk' on Marcum instead of Harden. There are many scenarios. But most of them are better than what we got.

They didn't need to even "go after" Lannan, he was still under Nats control at the time they acquired Meyer. Could have easily been a throw-in. He might have cost slightly more in trade than on the FA market, but they certainly would have had a better asset at a cheaper price than Correia, better durability than Correia and most importantly, not gotten stuck with 2 years of Correia.

TheLeviathan
01-28-2013, 08:20 AM
They did supplement their core with werth and edwin jackson.

That's all anyone is asking them to do. Show a willingness to do this. Adding talent now that could be around for that core or could be flipped for talent to add to it is incredibly important. The Nats have been adding guys like Laroche. Or, and I know this is salt in the wound, adding someone by the name of Matt Capps in FA for a one year deal and flipping him for Wilson Ramos.

You're right....I want the Twins to emulate the Nationals in MANY ways. That's the whole problem!

jharaldson
01-28-2013, 08:53 AM
I emailed Doogie about this topic and here is his response. I find it curious that he does not have firm reporting right now if this is an actual offer.


Jesse -- I wasn't able to squeeze that out of my contact, just that if he wants to be a Twin, it'll happen. My hunch: there is a firm offer on the table. But because I didn't hear that, didn't write it.

Doogie



From: Jesse.Haraldson
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 3:24 PM
To: Wolfson, Darren [[email protected]]
Subject: Question on Saunders Story
Hi Doogie,

Love your work on Channel 5 and AM 1500. Quick question about the Saunders story, have the Twins made an actual firm offer or are they still in the conversation stage, ex. Have they told him “1 Year, $5 million, $3 million in incentives” or have they said “We might have some interest in a one year deal if you are willing to come here.”? You have made a number of comments this offseason about the Twins and their curious process this year of talking to free agents but not offering contracts. Thanks!

Jesse

nicksaviking
01-28-2013, 03:08 PM
MLB Trade Rumors, re-ran Doogie's blurb about the Twins being interested in Saunders for one year. I didn't see any new information on the MTR sight so my only conclusion is they must be openly campaigning for the Twins to get him.

jokin
01-28-2013, 03:57 PM
I emailed Doogie about this topic and here is his response. I find it curious that he does not have firm reporting right now if this is an actual offer.

Well done, Jesse. Let me get this straight, Doogie printed a hunch like it was a firm offer, but folds immediately when politely pushed into a corner? Exemplary for supposed breaking mountainous "repertorial evidence" signifying very little in breaking molehill substance.

Is this what a "source", who is supposedly the player's agent, would say to a reporter? Methinks more like what St Antony would say.

PseudoSABR
01-28-2013, 04:06 PM
From Neal
SAUNDERS UPDATE: There were reports a couple weeks ago that things were heating up between the Twins Joe Saunders but that wasn't the case. In fact, the sides have had little contact in recent weeks.The Twins remain interested, but they are not going to give Saunders a three-year deal. They would do a two-year deal if the money was right. I'm sensing that the Twins would prefer to sign Saunders to a one-year deal with an option for a second year.
Unsigned players should be getting antsy now that camp is just around the corner, so prices should drop.

jokin
01-28-2013, 04:09 PM
From Neal SAUNDERS UPDATE: There were reports a couple weeks ago that things were heating up between the Twins Joe Saunders but that wasn't the case. In fact, the sides have had little contact in recent weeks.The Twins remain interested, but they are not going to give Saunders a three-year deal. They would do a two-year deal if the money was right. I'm sensing that the Twins would prefer to sign Saunders to a one-year deal with an option for a second year.
Unsigned players should be getting antsy now that camp is just around the corner, so prices should drop. [/FONT][/SIZE]

Skeptics Dilemma. Doogie or LEN3?

edavis0308
01-28-2013, 04:23 PM
Is anyone noticing the fact that there is no evidence that we have actually offered him a contract (he only mentions a hunch)? Sound familiar?

snepp
01-28-2013, 04:41 PM
Is anyone noticing the fact that there is no evidence that we have actually offered him a contract (he only mentions a hunch)? Sound familiar?

They would have offered him a contract, a more than competitive one at that, but he just hates Minnesota and preemptively rejected it before it even had the chance to see the light of day.