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Coach J
01-13-2013, 11:11 AM
As I was reading mlbtraderumors.com, came across a quote from Buck Showalter that I really liked. When asked about the possibility of trading JJ Hardy, Showalter responded "what word is about "overwhelmed?" It just gets me mad thinking about the Twins trading JJ for basically nothing. I hated the trade at the time and really hate it now. My question is what would make the Twins trade him and get such little in return? I realize he didn't have a great year, but shortstops that hit for power and have a solid glove still have value. The Twins traded him at his lowest possible value. Money I think had a little to do with it. However, I have got a pretty good hunch Gardy was the one pushing hard for them to trade him. He doesn't like middle infielders that can't run or obviously ones that can hit for power lol. But seriously, I don't think anyone could have won with the product on the field the last two years. But I do think Gardy has quite a bit of say on most of the roster decisions. He is directly responsible for giving Alexi Casilla 15 chances at a starting gig. Anyone who thinks you can lose two good up the middle defenders like Hudson and Hardy and replace them with Alexi Casilla and Nishioka and not have a setback in wins should be examined. Anyways, just thought I would vent a little on that subject:mad: Thoughts?

Chance
01-13-2013, 12:43 PM
My thought is that Hudson got us a great draft pick (Travis Harrison) and I think most if not all twins fans were pretty excited about Nishi until he didn't work out. It's easy to say now that it was a mistake but it was popular at the time, sometimes it just doesn't work out (seems more often as a twins fan). I wish we would have kept Hardy but he probably wouldn't have put up those numbers here because the twins didn't want him pulling the ball all time.

one_eyed_jack
01-13-2013, 01:21 PM
My thought is that it's now 2013, and high time to stop whining about moves made in 2010 that didn't work out.

At this point you might as well be complaining about Bruno-for-Herr.

twinsnorth49
01-13-2013, 01:26 PM
I agree, I wish we never had to trade Santana, I wish we would have kept Dickey, I wish, I wish, I wish................nope, not working.

luke829
01-13-2013, 01:41 PM
Hindsight, alwasy 20/20.

Brandon
01-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Everyone was upset about trading Hardy. I think we were even more upset at that then the Corriea signing. Cause both obviously meant punting the next season. But the Hardy trade was a long time ago and we have moved on. I think we were more curious than excited about Nishioka when we signed him. We were excited in that we actually signed a Japenese player but when we saw that signing also meant the end of Hardy being here I think that tempered any excitement that signing could have and changed it to I hope he doesn't suck which he did.

At this point I am hopeful the Twins still sign a pitcher or Johnson or Sanchez or a backup OF or even Inge. Someone they can flip for a monorleaguer later.

Kwak
01-13-2013, 02:17 PM
After 2010 it was well known that Mauer would be a free agent and that the Twins had to be truly aggressive in their offer so as to re-sign Mauer. It was also known that much of the bullpen's contracts would also have to be renegotiated--but that Nathan's injury prevented any trade. The Pohlads weren't going to expand the payroll to "make everybody happy"--so some "had to go". Hardy was one of them. I think the rest of BB realized the Twins were in "salary dump mode" and took advantage. Why Hardy? I think he was in Gardenhire's doghouse because trading him for such a dubious return and then spending so much to acquire Nishioka (whose photograph is next to 'dubious' in the dictionary) confirms it wasn't just for salary reduction--there was "something else" going on.

snepp
01-13-2013, 03:11 PM
Hindsight, alwasy 20/20.

There was no hindsight required to see that the Hardy trade was pure **** right from day one.

Riverbrian
01-14-2013, 09:40 AM
The Trade was Terrible... No Doubt about it...

Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger and Sometimes you're the ball...

Sometimes it all comes together.

Bill Smith has been removed from the OM position.

Celebrity Weddings!
01-14-2013, 09:48 AM
After 2010 it was well known that Mauer would be a free agent and that the Twins had to be truly aggressive in their offer so as to re-sign Mauer

Mauer signed his extension in March of 2010.

Boom Boom
01-14-2013, 10:06 AM
Nishioka didn't have anything to do with the Hardy trade. The plan was always to have T-Nish play second. Hardy was traded because Gardy didn't like him.

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 10:09 AM
Nishioka didn't have anything to do with the Hardy trade. The plan was always to have T-Nish play second. Hardy was traded because Gardy didn't like him.

Yep, and Gardy wanted Casilla for his shortstop.

nicksaviking
01-14-2013, 10:21 AM
I think the animosity was probably overblown seeing as Gardy gets along with most hard working players, and Hardy seems to be that kind of guy but the hitting philosophies of the two (or maybe just Vavra) certainly didn't mesh. The Twins wanted Hardy to hit to all fields while Hardy wanted to get around on everything and drive them to LF.

What sucks was, only a year later the Twins must have realized Hardy's preference was the correct one for right-handed hitters at Target Field because they let Willingham and Plouffe have a go at Hardy's approach.

gunnarthor
01-14-2013, 10:24 AM
I think we might be getting a bit carried away with this. Hardy was due something like 6m and the team couldn't spend enough to keep Hardy, Thome and Pavano. Hardy was always dinged up a bit - he only started 95 games for us - and asked out of the lineup a lot leaving us with a 24 man bench. His defense was good but dWAR, for instance, showed him declining three years in a row. He wasn't killing it with the bat for us - Alexi Casilla actually had a higher OBP, SLG and OPS+ and was younger. The team decided to go with a MI of Nishi and Casilla. Obviously, that worked out.

Everyone in baseball knew that Hardy was available but Baltimore seemed to be the only team interested in him.

Kwak
01-14-2013, 10:41 AM
Mauer signed his extension in March of 2010.

December 2010,

FrodaddyG
01-14-2013, 10:51 AM
December 2010,
Let me google that for you (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=joe+mauer+contract+extension)

John Bonnes
01-14-2013, 11:30 AM
I think we might be getting a bit carried away with this. Hardy was due something like 6m and the team couldn't spend enough to keep Hardy, Thome and Pavano. Hardy was always dinged up a bit - he only started 95 games for us - and asked out of the lineup a lot leaving us with a 24 man bench. His defense was good but dWAR, for instance, showed him declining three years in a row. He wasn't killing it with the bat for us - Alexi Casilla actually had a higher OBP, SLG and OPS+ and was younger. The team decided to go with a MI of Nishi and Casilla. Obviously, that worked out.

Everyone in baseball knew that Hardy was available but Baltimore seemed to be the only team interested in him.

Yep, right on. the primary reasons were:
1) Cost-cutting, after signing Nishioka.
2) He was fairly expensive and coming off of a couple of pretty bad years. He was also perceived as fragile.
3) There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on. He was not overly valued by anyone, as is seen by what Baltimore nabbed him for.
4) The Twins wanted to add speed.

At the time, I think I wrote that this was fair accomopli once they decided to go for Nishioka. They weren't going to pay for both. And I continue to believe that the Nishioka signing was more business-driven than team-driven. They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

Celebrity Weddings!
01-14-2013, 11:33 AM
December 2010,

Nope. It was March. Unless after your comma you meant to write "was nine months after Mauer signed his extension."

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 11:35 AM
I was ecstatic when we traded for him and royally ticked off when he was traded away. No hindsight for me. And Hardy was trade before Nishi signed. And it was Gardy who specifically said he wanted speed.

Hardy had an OPS over .800 in the 2nd half and had the best UZR/150 for starting shortstops.

Celebrity Weddings!
01-14-2013, 11:37 AM
They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

jokin
01-14-2013, 11:40 AM
At the time, I think I wrote that this was fair accomopli once they decided to go for Nishioka. They weren't going to pay for both. And I continue to believe that the Nishioka signing was more business-driven than team-driven. They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

And how did that "revenue base expansion" work out again? Still no fingeprints discovered at One Twins Way, they couldn't even identify the Marketing Department stenographer on that deal.

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 11:41 AM
Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

Tickets sales, maybe?

jokin
01-14-2013, 11:54 AM
Yep, right on. the primary reasons were:
1) Cost-cutting, after signing Nishioka.
2) He was fairly expensive and coming off of a couple of pretty bad years. He was also perceived as fragile.
3) There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on. He was not overly valued by anyone, as is seen by what Baltimore nabbed him for.
4) The Twins wanted to add speed.





1) Agreed, very short-sighted and panicky cost-cutting.

2) The Twins knew exactly what they traded for at the time of the Gomez deal, time has proven that any "perception" of fragility was post-rationalization of the deal on the Twins part. The stats show he had regained much of his hand strength in the 2nd half of 2010. (Hardy publicly criticized the Twins medical staff for extending his injury woes- along with the hitting philosophies).

3) No 20/20 hindsight from many Twins fans who castigated all levels of Twins management at the time (and ever since). The Orioles did indeed "nab" Hardy, Smith continually demonstrated vast abilities at having his pocket picked.

4) Nishi's lack of fundamentals in the field, combined with his Punch(less)-and-Judy batting style negated any marginal increase in speed.

John Bonnes
01-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

I've been wondering about this myself. My best understanding is that it opens the door to corporate sponsorship from Japanese businesses.

FrodaddyG
01-14-2013, 12:32 PM
I've been wondering about this myself. My best understanding is that it opens the door to corporate sponsorship from Japanese businesses.
So essentially, it's a sound byte that really doesn't mean much?

USAFChief
01-14-2013, 12:44 PM
1. The "20-20 hindsight" thing is really aggravating. Many...MANY...Twins fans ripped the deal at the time, with good reason. If you weren't one of them, fine. But don't come around now claiming hindsight, just because you couldn't see the Twins getting their pockets picked then.

2. I've never understood the "Twins signed Nishioka for marketing reasons" line of thought. Didn't then, don't now. Where was this money going to come from?

3. Hardy's second half, when he got healthy and was one of the best SS's in the league, was a primary reason for the Twins very good second half. "Didn't do anything" is wrong, too. He played exceptionally well over the last three months of the season.

4. "The Twins couldn't afford him" has no legs either. He wasn't much more expensive than Nishioka, and in any case, relatively cheap for a good shortstop. They could have extended Hardy AND signed Nishioka.

It was a foolish, shortsighted move any way you look at it. Any other take then, or now, really has no basis in logic or fact.

johnnydakota
01-14-2013, 12:53 PM
Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

mlb gameday and broadcasts, in 2011 over 12.5 monthly subscriptions....1 of the money revenues mlb doesnt speak of...or over 2 billion in 2011 divided by 30 teams and a fee to the commisioners office to run mlb

twinsnorth49
01-14-2013, 01:38 PM
It was a foolish, shortsighted move any way you look at it. Any other take then, or now, really has no basis in logic or fact.

I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 01:46 PM
I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

This post is about JJ Hardy. If you're adamant about moving on, why did you even go on this thread? What did you think was being talked about?

twinsnorth49
01-14-2013, 01:51 PM
This post is about JJ Hardy. If you're adamant about moving on, why did you even go on this thread? What did you think was being talked about?

I was hoping it was going to be something new and different, silly me.

jokin
01-14-2013, 02:16 PM
I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

Maybe when the apologists stop the 20/20 hindsight apolgetics?

CDog
01-14-2013, 04:11 PM
(Hardy publicly criticized the Twins medical staff for extending his injury woes- along with the hitting philosophies).


Just couldn't resist trying to sneak that lie past everyone? I find it hard to believe someone who claims to know so much missed article after article on pretty much every source possible where Hardy went out of his way to credit Vavra with turning around his career. If it was something that somehow got past you, googling "Hardy Vavra" will result in a whole mess of links for you.

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 04:15 PM
Just couldn't resist trying to sneak that lie past everyone? I find it hard to believe someone who claims to know so much missed article after article on pretty much every source possible where Hardy went out of his way to credit Vavra with turning around his career. If it was something that somehow got past you, googling "Hardy Vavra" will result in a whole mess of links for you.

Ex-Brewer Hardy beginning to feel at home with Orioles (http://lacrossetribune.com/sports/baseball/professional/ex-brewer-hardy-beginning-to-feel-at-home-with-orioles/article_80b4afa6-61da-11e1-bd07-001871e3ce6c.html)

Willihammer
01-14-2013, 04:22 PM
This thread is a dead dove: do not eat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKmq7UMJys)

CDog
01-14-2013, 04:32 PM
Ex-Brewer Hardy beginning to feel at home with Orioles (http://lacrossetribune.com/sports/baseball/professional/ex-brewer-hardy-beginning-to-feel-at-home-with-orioles/article_80b4afa6-61da-11e1-bd07-001871e3ce6c.html)

And the very next day (I think), Hardy went out of his way to go to the media and correct what he had meant. And as I said...go ahead and google "Hardy Vavra" for one article after another in every major place that covers the Twins where he was apologetic for what had come out being misconstrued.

You're above backing up the lying, I'm pretty sure.

ThePuck
01-14-2013, 04:37 PM
And the very next day (I think), Hardy went out of his way to go to the media and correct what he had meant. And as I said...go ahead and google "Hardy Vavra" for one article after another in every major place that covers the Twins where he was apologetic for what had come out being misconstrued.

You're above backing up the lying, I'm pretty sure.

One wonders if, after making his comments, he felt bad and did the political thing. He didn't deny what he had said. Those quotes were accurate. He did later say Vavra helped him with his swing, no doubt, but he said what he said and that's where people are getting the idea that they messed up his approach. I'm not sure that means I'm backing up lying in so much as I'm saying it's possible Hardy did the politcal thing to cover what he had said.

I mean, why is one quote accurate, but the next one not or vice versa. Depends on which side of the argument one is on...which side one wants to believe. We don't know which side is true.

Now, the other side:

SARASOTA, FLA. -- After a long talk with Twins hitting coach Joe Vavra near the batting cage today, Orioles shortstop J.J. Hardy clarified his recent comments about the difference between the team’s hitting philosophies.

Hardy had said Rod Carew pulled him aside after his first round of batting practice with the Twins and told him to start using the whole field. He said the Orioles told him to go back to pulling the ball the way he did during his best years with the Brewers.

After hitting six home runs for the Twins in 2010, Hardy hit a career-high 30 homers last year for the Orioles.
“I was talking to Joe about it right now," Hardy said, "and I said, ‘Listen, I hope nothing’s ever come out where I said anything bad or come out like it’s bad.’ Because like we were talking about -- 2010 was a year we were trying to bounce back from 2009, where I had a terrible swing and we worked with a lot of mechanical stuff, and once we kind of knocked that out in 2010, I come here [to the Orioles], and I think I would have done something similar [in 2011] compared to last year if I was still in Minnesota."

He sounds a bit confused there, doncha think? He SEEMS to be back-pedaling and not doing a good job.

USAFChief
01-14-2013, 04:38 PM
I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

I'll stop bitching about history when people stop trying to rewrite it.

twinsnorth49
01-14-2013, 05:11 PM
Maybe when the apologists stop the 20/20 hindsight apolgetics?

You're referring to the one guy in this thread who even used that phrase?

jokin
01-14-2013, 05:43 PM
And the very next day (I think), Hardy went out of his way to go to the media and correct what he had meant. And as I said...go ahead and google "Hardy Vavra" for one article after another in every major place that covers the Twins where he was apologetic for what had come out being misconstrued.

You're above backing up the lying, I'm pretty sure.

Incredible, that someone of your level of sophistication doesn't see the standard-operating-procedure, damage-control-CYA involved in this whole affair. You seriously don't think Hardy's agent was on the phone with him the second he came out with his initial comments?

CDog
01-15-2013, 10:13 AM
I mean, why is one quote accurate, but the next one not or vice versa. Depends on which side of the argument one is on...which side one wants to believe. We don't know which side is true.


Because of when and how things happened, you can get a pretty good idea. FIRST a member of the media seeks out Hardy for an interview to do a story. That story comes out, and immediately Hardy then SEEKS OUT someone mentioned in the story AND SEEKS OUT media to go out of his way to clarify and correct how things came off in the original story. Do you suppose he did that because...I can't even think of a good reason unless it was because he felt so bad about giving the wrong impression the first time around.

ThePuck
01-15-2013, 10:42 AM
Because of when and how things happened, you can get a pretty good idea. FIRST a member of the media seeks out Hardy for an interview to do a story. That story comes out, and immediately Hardy then SEEKS OUT someone mentioned in the story AND SEEKS OUT media to go out of his way to clarify and correct how things came off in the original story. Do you suppose he did that because...I can't even think of a good reason unless it was because he felt so bad about giving the wrong impression the first time around.

It was after meeting Vavra face to face when the two teams played each other.

You know, I'm not on either side of this argument, I'm just saying I understand both sides of it. Both sides have legitimate stuff to fall back on in their argument. I presented both right here. I don't think either side should say the other is blatantly lying. It's all up for interpretation.

mnfanforlife
01-15-2013, 10:57 AM
I was ecstatic when we traded for him and royally ticked off when he was traded away. No hindsight for me. And Hardy was trade before Nishi signed. And it was Gardy who specifically said he wanted speed.

Hardy had an OPS over .800 in the 2nd half and had the best UZR/150 for starting shortstops.

Yeah, getting a power hitting, slick fielding shortstop for the train wreck that is Carlos Gomez was a savvy move...And an equally unsavvy move by dumping him for Hoey (whoey?)

mnfanforlife
01-15-2013, 11:08 AM
What Hardy said about the Twins' hitting approach is dead accurate....David Ortiz was always being asked to drop singles into LF for the Twins. No doubt Vavra worked on Hardy's swing and probably helped JJ have a huge 2012. This was just a situation where JJ was candid (too candid) with a member of the media, and it got slightly out-of-hand.

nokomismod
01-15-2013, 11:27 AM
One of the things that bugs with this PED era is you never are really sure when someone's numbers are legit. Ortiz leaves here, becomes a healthy and very productive player. Hardy goes from injury prone and 6 HR to being healthy and hitting 30 per year. My point is not that he started a new dietary approach, but I hate that I wonder if he did.

one_eyed_jack
01-15-2013, 12:52 PM
I don't understand the compulsion to dwell on this move. I don't know whether it's some kind of an emotional attachment to JJ Hardy or an addiction to the feeling of self-satisfaction of being able to say "I told you so", but seriously, it's 2013. The contemporary relevance of moves made in 2010 ended a while ago. Ramos for Capps was a dumb move too, and also labeled as such by many people as soon as it was made. But there hasn't been anywhere near the amont incessant whining over that like there's been for the Hardy trade.

It's not like this move alone doomed the past 2 seasons. You know what you get if you take the 2011 and 2012 Twins and add JJ Hardy?

2 bad baseball teams. Hardy would have made them a little less crappy, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that we would have been playing meaningful baseball in September but for the decison to trade him.

Time to move on.

twinsnorth49
01-15-2013, 03:55 PM
I don't understand the compulsion to dwell on this move. I don't know whether it's some kind of an emotional attachment to JJ Hardy or an addiction to the feeling of self-satisfaction of being able to say "I told you so",

That part, right there.....and then piling on.

But you'll be admonished for opening the dead dove as well. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1087.gif

USAFChief
01-15-2013, 05:02 PM
I don't understand the compulsion to dwell on this move. ... The contemporary relevance of moves made in 2010 ended a while ago.

The "contemporary relevance" lives on as "who will be playing SS for the Twins in 2013."

Kwak
01-15-2013, 05:19 PM
One of the things that bugs with this PED era is you never are really sure when someone's numbers are legit. Ortiz leaves here, becomes a healthy and very productive player. Hardy goes from injury prone and 6 HR to being healthy and hitting 30 per year. My point is not that he started a new dietary approach, but I hate that I wonder if he did.
A filthy comment--you as much accused Hardy of using PEDs because he hit 30HRs and didn't get injured. Ortiz?, Fenway has The Wall in LF to turn routine flies into hits, and Manny Ramirez batting behind him that makes it really undesirable for a team to walk Ortiz. reading Hardy's comment in Feb '12 states the the Twins "point-out" when a player "rolls over" a pitch into a ground out. Somehow I suspect that Boston was more "restrained" in their comments. Recall that Ortiz was basically fired despite hitting 20 HRs.

twinsnorth49
01-15-2013, 07:05 PM
The "contemporary relevance" lives on as "who will be playing SS for the Twins in 2013."

It would be him? Surely we would have flipped him for a player to be bitched about later any how.

Boom Boom
01-15-2013, 07:29 PM
One of the things that bugs with this PED era is you never are really sure when someone's numbers are legit. Ortiz leaves here, becomes a healthy and very productive player. Hardy goes from injury prone and 6 HR to being healthy and hitting 30 per year. My point is not that he started a new dietary approach, but I hate that I wonder if he did.


Don't believe that guys only use PEDs after they've left the Twins. Papi may well have been on the juice before he left.

If Hardy was juicing in this era of testing he probably would have been caught.

DelawareTwinsFan
01-15-2013, 09:54 PM
While we're at it, Bad Bill Smith trades, Bartlett, Garza and hard throwing minor leaguer for Delmon Young, Harris and centerfielder who I can't remember. Then Young to Tigers for Oliveros and some bad minor league pitcher. So, Bartlett, Garza, somebody for Oliveros an somebody. Bad, you betcha.