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johnnydakota
01-08-2013, 11:30 AM
Scott Boras in the past has suggested to other teams that losing would improve there teams in the long run.
I still like the idea of signing quality players and using them to build a sucsesful minor leaque system and mlb team.
Free agency is not the only way to do this , but is 1 of 4 ways to accomplish it
There are F.A. , draftspicks, DFAs, and rule 5s,but if you ignore 2 of these avenues you are missing out on many oppertunitys

If you look back at last years draft(which many claim was a total sucsess) you see we chose 1 starting pitcher in the first 10 rounds,and he is an 18 year old who if ever, makes the show will be at least 5 years from now.

In the free agent market Terry managed to sign not 1 quality player. Zero...zilch...nada. He did manage to waste 15 million dollars on 3 non factor pitchers, in Correia he signed an untradible pitcher for 2 years and in harden and pelfrey he sign 2 rebound players who once they prove they can still pitch will sign else where , and we will have nothing to show for that money or time spent.If we had signed 1 or 2 quality pitchers , we then could have used them as trade pieces to fill holes in our minor leaque system or kept them to improve our team.

In the rule 5 draft Mr. Ryan chose Pressly (1 of 4 players i had an eye on)and while i liked this pick, I disagree with Terry on passing on a 2nd pick.Lara a left handed starter who is being used in the winter leaque with sucsess as a reliver can bring it up to the plate at 98mph ,and would have been a very cheap compitition to Robertson in spring training

Now we turn to DFA players , with the twins finishing last we had the right to claim players before any other teams,but Terry only claimed outfielders...OUTFIELDERS, not middle infielders, not 3b, not catchers, not relievers , not starters, but outfielders, you know the strength of our farm system...

If you look at his much heralded trades a little closer you will see once again Ryan ended up holding the short end of the stick.First he traded a quality leadoff stellar defensive centerfielder for 1 single A player...should have been another player in the deal, next he traded lil Ben for 2 players while this looks to be a very good trade at first glance ,if you look deeper you see we recieved a 2nd year starter who ended up on the D.L. twice in his 1st full season and ended up needing surgery, and in Mays case , many are already projecting him to be in the bull pen .

How so many people can continue to defend or carry praise for Terry Ryan bewilders me, he has failed to safe guard our assets or to improve the team, the only thing he has managed to do is eliminate payroll .

ashburyjohn
01-08-2013, 11:41 AM
> for ! single A player.

I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.

jokin
01-08-2013, 12:07 PM
> for ! single A player.

I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.

Whoa there! You chose to tread on dangerous comparative ground in your analysis. While the Twins acquired a definite potential talent, Alex Meyer is most certainly, at this point anyway, not the "Joe Mauer of pitching", Stephen Strasburg, he's not even Jordan Zimmerman. All 3 were drafted out of college at 21, both Zimmerman and Strasburg were dominating AA and/or AAA in their first full season schedule of minor league ball, with Strasburg bypassing A level completely.

Add to that, the Twins infatuation with extraordinarily tall pitchers combined with their inability to fix or refine the difficulties in mechanics that tall throwers endure, this is far from a sure thing like Joe Mauer obviously was in 2002.

johnnydakota
01-08-2013, 12:20 PM
> for ! single A player.

I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.

didnt we just sign Clemente to a minor leaque contract with an invite to spring training? wasnt he a #1 draft pick?
My point was not every single A player makes the majors. Look at Mays single A numbers compared to his AA stats

Fire Dan Gladden
01-08-2013, 12:24 PM
So many wrong things, I don't even know where to begin...

Rule 5 picks rarely work out to the good, especially pitchers. I don't have the numbers, but can anybody name one pitcher picked in all of baseball that has been productive since Yohan (Diamond had 1/2 a decent year, outcome TBD)? Don't count on this as a route for improvement.

DFA players are typically DFA'd for a reason. Occasionally you may find a backup position or low end reliever, but that is about it. As this is an area we are pretty set at, I would also not look at this as a route for improvement.

The draft is essential, but is also a huge crapshoot. If you get 2-3 MLB players out of each draft, you would be doing awesome. To complain about how TR has been doing in the draft is worthless, as we will not know about how last year's draft pans out until 2018.

The FA market? TR doesn't control every aspect of this. Offers may go unanswered. Players get overpaid. Perceptions are different from team to team. I'm not saying it can't be the answer, but it totally doesn't fall on TR.

Complaining about the Span/Revere trades while lamenting the pitching woes doesn't really make sense. Rarely are trades equal. In this case the Twins traded established outfielders (as you said, an area of strength) for potential quality pitching. Many of the pundits said the Twins came ahead in these deals (again, for pitchers), so I am not sure what you are complaining about.

There are things that TR does, at least publicly, that I don't always agree with, but considering the hand he was dealt upon his return, it is hard to fault his job as a whole so far

jokin
01-08-2013, 12:29 PM
> for ! single A player.

I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.

Despite johnny d's skewed and oft-mangled prose, he did present some valid points.

If Ryan was willing to gamble on question-mark pitchers this year, Lara should have been a no-brainer in the 2nd round, especially with the injection of new (Latin) blood in the bullpen coaching staff. Robertson did nothing to show he automatically deserves the lefty spot. Ironic, the supposedly discredited Miami Marlins organization, chose not only 100MPH lefty Lara in the 2nd round of the Rule 5 draft (TR, the risk here was $50,000), they also drafted another high velocity KO-heavy lefty in the AAA phase of the draft ($12,000 of risk, TR and Pohlad write off lunches with a bigger tab than that). The Marlins 1st round pick? Dominican slugging OFer, Alfredo Silverio, who could have been hidden on the DL as he's coming back from TJ surgery. I like his potential over the next Komatsu/Thomas acquisition.

But johnny's right, the Nats improved by losing and loading up in all phases of rebuilding a franchise. Does Ryan need more help in analyzing all of these phases?, including the International phase?, where the previous director of scouting admitted that he'd never seen Berrios pitch., but "had heard good things about him".

Willihammer
01-08-2013, 12:42 PM
To complain about how TR has been doing in the draft is worthless, as we will not know about how last year's draft pans out until 2018.

One might argue that that itself is worthy of complaint (the need vs. talent/ceiling debate).

Buxton especially. He is so young and so raw, and Appel is so close to a sure thing and fills such a pressing need. For the Twins to pass on an asset like that, who could have been had for Feldman-money, might have been the start of the punting of 2013, now that I look back at it.

jokin
01-08-2013, 12:50 PM
So many wrong things, I don't even know where to begin...

Rule 5 picks rarely work out to the good, especially pitchers. I don't have the numbers, but can anybody name one pitcher picked in all of baseball that has been productive since Yohan? Don't count on this as a route for improvement.

DFA players are typically DFA'd for a reason. Occasionally you may find a backup position or low end reliever, but that is about it. As this is an area we are pretty set at, I would also not look at this as a route for improvement.

The draft is essential, but is also a huge crapshoot. If you get 2-3 MLB players out of each draft, you would be doing awesome. To complain about how TR has been doing in the draft is worthless, as we will not know about how last year's draft pans out until 2018.

The FA market? TR doesn't control every aspect of this. Offers may go unanswered. Players get overpaid. Perceptions are different from team to team. I'm not saying it can't be the answer, but it totally doesn't fall on TR.

Complaining about the Span/Revere trades while lamenting the pitching woes doesn't really make sense. Rarely are trades equal. In this case the Twins traded established outfielders (as you said, an area of strength) for potential quality pitching. Many of the pundits said the Twins came ahead in these deals (again, for pitchers), so I am not sure what you are complaining about.

There are things that TR does, at least publicly, that I don't always agree with, but considering the hand he was dealt upon his return, it is hard to fault his job as a whole so far

This defense of management explains your moniker- firing the messenger, indeed.

Rule 5 pitchers? Of course it's a crapshoot. Scott Diamond comes to mind. Watch out for Josh Fields in Houston. Ivan Nova would be the Twins ace right now. RA Dickey ring a bell? Those 4 would be a pretty decent rotation, throw in a Kyle Lobstein and Randy Wells as competitors for the number 5 man. Not bad for a crapshoot.

jokin
01-08-2013, 12:56 PM
One might argue that that itself is worthy of complaint (the need vs. talent/ceiling debate).

Buxton especially. He is so young and so raw, and Appel is so close to a sure thing and fills such a pressing need. For the Twins to pass on an asset like that, who could have been had for Feldman-money, might have been the start of the punting of 2013, now that I look back at it.

Spot on. There's still a good chance they can pick Appel in 2013, maybe that was part of TR's "master plan".

Haddyz
01-08-2013, 02:08 PM
This thread goes a whole bunch of different directions. Let's see if we can get down to it...

1) There's two directions you can go with the losing bit... Detroit Tigers and Tampa Bay Rays. Or Pittsburgh Pirates and Kansas City Royals. Point being, some teams lose and lose and go no where. If you just had the Washington Nationals draft picks without all the FA and trade pickups, they're not having the success they enjoyed last year.

2) Some club decision has to have been made NOT to spend money this year. That's not just Ryan. That's Billy Smith and others making those decisions too.

3) Denard Span was NEVER a stellar outfielder. He's a decent, slightly above average centerfielder with a mediocre arm, that couldn't go BACK on a ball to save his life.

4) Alex Meyer is 22 and already made one bump to A+. The next two years will be the most important to see how he'll shape up. The biggest concern and acknowledgement will be SO/9, to see if he keeps that UP.

5) Trevor May. MAYYYYY. Not Mays. Never will be Mays. It's MAY. Not April. May. As in Trevor MAY turn out to be good. He was 22 at AA. He should get his second chance at AA this year. We'll see if he settles in.

6) The trades won't reveal themselves until 2-3 years from now, on how well TR did.

7) Most of the time, Gardy only carries one or two lefties in a bullpen. Perkins and Duensing and Robertson. Twins have a lot invested into Robertson already. They're handing this kid his chance. Just like they gave Plouffe his chance last year (and into this year) and Valencia his chance the year before (plus some). After this, we'll know whether he sticks or not.

Too many variables. I could keep going.

johnnydakota
01-08-2013, 02:19 PM
Lets look at #2 and #7
#2 Whos decision? Jim Pohlads....plain and simple....its his team , his money
#7 With the twins carring 12 or 13 pitchers, thats 7 or 8 in the pen,
and only 2 lefties? when 1 is our closer, it makes much more sense to have 3 lefties in the pen...

ashburyjohn
01-08-2013, 02:34 PM
Whoa there! You chose to tread on dangerous comparative ground in your analysis.

I didn't offer any analysis, and I'm not sure you read the beginning to my last sentence in which I said he's not the Joe Mauer of pitching in different words. Rating prospects by what league there in was my point. First round draft picks are very tough to pry away.

Edit: there -> they're

TwinsFanInPhilly
01-08-2013, 02:43 PM
Google subject verb agreement

ashburyjohn
01-08-2013, 02:49 PM
didnt we just sign Clemente to a minor leaque contract with an invite to spring training? wasnt he a #1 draft pick?
My point was not every single A player makes the majors. Look at Mays single A numbers compared to his AA stats

Sure, single-A first-rounders can still fail - and established center fielders can get a second concussion and lose their trade value in an instant. In a few years we'll know in hindsight who won this trade. I still disagree with rating a trade at the time it's made by what level the prospect is at. Once a blue-chipper reaches AA and has success you can rarely get him for the price of an average major league CFer which Span is.

jokin
01-08-2013, 03:27 PM
1) There's two directions you can go with the losing bit... Detroit Tigers and Tampa Bay Rays. Or Pittsburgh Pirates and Kansas City Royals. Point being, some teams lose and lose and go no where. If you just had the Washington Nationals draft picks without all the FA and trade pickups, they're not having the success they enjoyed last year.





7) Most of the time, Gardy only carries one or two lefties in a bullpen. Perkins and Duensing and Robertson. Twins have a lot invested into Robertson already. They're handing this kid his chance. Just like they gave Plouffe his chance last year (and into this year) and Valencia his chance the year before (plus some). After this, we'll know whether he sticks or not.



Good food for thought.

1) Ironic that the 2 teams both considered for contraction have gone in such different directions. The Nats were finally forced to change gears and philosophies, established new ownership and then hired aggressive, successful baseball men for their front office in Kasten, Bowden and now Rizzo. They formulated a plan to work in conjunction with the building of a new ballpark in 2008, they mostly stuck to the plan even with attendance dropping to the bottom of MLB. There have been controversies and bumps in the road, but the quick-fix FA signings in the past were over and management was always on the look-out for improvement through all phases available to them to steadily stockpile a depth of young talent. They apparently have the ownership financial backing willing to take a financial loss or two in down years, accompanied by a front office more vital and vigorous than the Twins in scouting, properly identifying and ultimately acquiring talent through draft, trades and signings...which finally worked out in making themselves legitimate contenders. There's no doubt finishing at the bottom in the late 00s gave them access to drafting top talent, but other teams were in a similar position, too. Interestingly, their management team has had vast experience working in smaller markets with low-end payrolls. Since 2005, Washington's payroll has varied between $37M at the low end and $68M at the top end until finally climbing to $92.5 in 2012.


7) There's a very strong chance that Duensing ends up in the starting rotation at some point during the season. There goes one lefty option. Perk is the closer. Most importantly, Robertson still has 3 options left, was a desperation call-up in 2012 and did very little to make a case why he is a lock at the 3rd lefty spot in 2013. And the case he HAS made thus far would only qualify him for LOOGY status, longer term.

ThePuck
01-08-2013, 03:53 PM
3) Denard Span was NEVER a stellar outfielder. He's a decent, slightly above average centerfielder with a mediocre arm, that couldn't go BACK on a ball to save his life.



Fangraphs had him as the 3rd best CF in MLB last year. The people who voted for the Fielding Bible awards also had him 3rd in MLB. He isn't flashy, he isn't diving, but then again, he reads the ball so well, he usually doesn't have to. And he goes back on a ball just fine

gunnarthor
01-08-2013, 05:44 PM
Scott Boras in the past has suggested to other teams that losing would improve there teams in the long run.
I still like the idea of signing quality players and using them to build a sucsesful minor leaque system and mlb team.
Free agency is not the only way to do this , but is 1 of 4 ways to accomplish it
There are F.A. , draftspicks, DFAs, and rule 5s,but if you ignore 2 of these avenues you are missing out on many oppertunitys

If you look back at last years draft(which many claim was a total sucsess) you see we chose 1 starting pitcher in the first 10 rounds,and he is an 18 year old who if ever, makes the show will be at least 5 years from now.

In the free agent market Terry managed to sign not 1 quality player. Zero...zilch...nada. He did manage to waste 15 million dollars on 3 non factor pitchers, in Correia he signed an untradible pitcher for 2 years and in harden and pelfrey he sign 2 rebound players who once they prove they can still pitch will sign else where , and we will have nothing to show for that money or time spent.If we had signed 1 or 2 quality pitchers , we then could have used them as trade pieces to fill holes in our minor leaque system or kept them to improve our team.

In the rule 5 draft Mr. Ryan chose Pressly (1 of 4 players i had an eye on)and while i liked this pick, I disagree with Terry on passing on a 2nd pick.Lara a left handed starter who is being used in the winter leaque with sucsess as a reliver can bring it up to the plate at 98mph ,and would have been a very cheap compitition to Robertson in spring training

Now we turn to DFA players , with the twins finishing last we had the right to claim players before any other teams,but Terry only claimed outfielders...OUTFIELDERS, not middle infielders, not 3b, not catchers, not relievers , not starters, but outfielders, you know the strength of our farm system...

If you look at his much heralded trades a little closer you will see once again Ryan ended up holding the short end of the stick.First he traded a quality leadoff stellar defensive centerfielder for 1 single A player...should have been another player in the deal, next he traded lil Ben for 2 players while this looks to be a very good trade at first glance ,if you look deeper you see we recieved a 2nd year starter who ended up on the D.L. twice in his 1st full season and ended up needing surgery, and in Mays case , many are already projecting him to be in the bull pen .

How so many people can continue to defend or carry praise for Terry Ryan bewilders me, he has failed to safe guard our assets or to improve the team, the only thing he has managed to do is eliminate payroll .


Draft - first, while they drafted several relief pitchers, they are giving a few of them the chance to start. I believe they want Martinez and Bard to be starters. But secondly, I have no problems with the Twins drafting strong bullpen arms that they think can get to the majors quickly in what was generally regarded as a weak draft class. The Twins under Ryan tended to draft well, so it's way premature to complain about this one. If Buxton and Berrios both develop into solid players and one relief pitcher makes the show, it would be considered a strong draft.

FA - I'm not going to overly defend Ryan on this one. First, the offseason isn't over so more could be done. But even if he's done, he has improved the rotation, considerably. I wish the Twins would sign 15m pitchers but they won't. It is what it is. If they can get replacement level out of them, it's a considerable improvement. Ryan also signed a handful of intriguing arms like Augenstein and Vasquez who could help in the pen.

Rule V - Hard to know why a bunch of teams passed on Lara, he was the last pick of the draft. I would've been happy to see us give him a shot but we don't have access to the same information the Twins do. But they have been pretty good in rule V drafts over the years so I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

DFAs - Twins claimed Josh Roenicke off waivers. Again, I'm not sure there was anyone claimed on waivers that was better than Masttoianni. And isn't that the real issue - the Twins were successful there. They got a fairly valuable player off of waivers. Sure, it would be great if they got a pitcher but that's not what happened.

Trades - far too early to grade the trades but most people - Klaw, Callis, Sickels - thought the Twins did pretty good in both trades.

On Ryan - I think Ryan is a fine GM. Keep in mind what he had when he took over a year ago. A team with a horrible, 2010 Marineers like offense and a bullpen that was among the worst in baseball. The rotation was seen as reasonable. Ryan fixed both the pen and the lineup. He signed a bunch of pitchers and Fein and Burton were nice gets. He signed a couple low cost free agents in Willingham and Doumit, who fit in perfectly. Now he has to fix the rotation. I mentioned this in another post but I'll repeat it here. Last year the team gave 88 starts to a bunch of really bad pitchers that amassed a negative 9.5 WAR! Let's say that Correia gives us a 2010 Blackburn like season - 26 starts (14 quality starts), -0.5 WAR, 160 ip. Pelfrey repeats his 2011 season - 33 starts (15 quality starts), 0.0 WAR, 190 ip and Worley gives us 27 starts (15 quality starts), 1.0 WAR, 160 ip. That more than covers the 88 horrendous starts I just mentioned and is a net gain of 10 WAR.

kab21
01-08-2013, 06:35 PM
Imo the only critical thing coming out of this offseason is that they made a mediocre attempt at improving in 2013 and have concentrated their efforts on 2014/2015. It's frustrating for sure but it's the reality of being a terrible team that had very few young players in its core.

Complaining about DFA pickups and rule 5 is silly.

ThePuck
01-08-2013, 06:53 PM
How did Ryan 'fix' the lineup last offseason? Span, Morny and Mauer got healthy...that is what happened.

We got Willingham and Doumit, but we lost Kubel and Cuddy.

How did HIS actions 'fix' the lineup? And, this offseason, how has he done anything more than hurt it?

beckmt
01-08-2013, 07:12 PM
How did Ryan 'fix' the lineup last offseason? Span, Morny and Mauer got healthy...that is what happened.

We got Willingham and Doumit, but we lost Kubel and Cuddy.

How did HIS actions 'fix' the lineup? And, this offseason, how has he done anything more than hurt it?
Doumit and Willingham were better than Cuddy and Kubel for less money. The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone. We are in trasition between groups of players and this year (while hopfully better) is a year of finding out what we have. That's why Hicks needs to start in Minnesota if he has a decent spring training, and we needed to move outfielders to create spots. Parmalee has to get enough AB's to see if he can contribute and settle what the Twins need to do with Morneau. It's nice to spend other people's money, but rarely do any of us get the chance. Kansas City and Pittsburg have been 20 -25 year rebuilding plans, so hopefully TR will be able to fix the issues.

darin617
01-08-2013, 07:19 PM
In the rule 5 draft Mr. Ryan chose Pressly (1 of 4 players i had an eye on)and while i liked this pick, .

So we have you to blame since you must be one of Terry Ryan's advisors...

If the Twins were gonna draft anyone in the Rule 5 draft they should have grabbed a pitcher who can actually throw heat. Not a guy like Pressly.

jokin
01-08-2013, 07:26 PM
Imo the only critical thing coming out of this offseason is that they made a mediocre attempt at improving in 2013 and have concentrated their efforts on 2014/2015. It's frustrating for sure but it's the reality of being a terrible team that had very few young players in its core.

Complaining about DFA pickups and rule 5 is silly.

See above in this thread for just a few of the potential Rule 5 and DFA misses, let alone some of the signable and/or flippable FAs, most of which are misses that are clearly better than some that the Twins project to place on the 2013 roster. Rome wasn't built in a day, one man's roster spot dilemma is another man's opportunity knocking, gathering pieces on the cheap, especially in their current horrendous situation should be an ongoing process, IOW, "concentrating efforts" on 2014/15 should have started even before season-end, October 3, 2012. If they would just admit to themselves and the public that this was 1984 redux (right in the middle of a 5-year run at improvement towards mediocrity), I think the fans would accept it and the prospects would get fast-tracked by a year or so. The impression the Twins are giving, especially considering the 2 big trades w/o obvious immediate replacements for them, is Mr Subliminal Man-esque: "We're making every effort ("extra tee times") at putting a competitive ("what's that No. 1 draft pick going to cost us in 2014?") on the field (gold mine) in 2013" ("Don't wake me up until 2015 rolls around, let's see, we'll still have to pay Mauer his $23M but... only have to spend another $23M for the rest of the guys, combined....")

ThePuck
01-08-2013, 07:26 PM
Doumit and Willingham were better than Cuddy and Kubel for less money. The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone. We are in trasition between groups of players and this year (while hopfully better) is a year of finding out what we have. That's why Hicks needs to start in Minnesota if he has a decent spring training, and we needed to move outfielders to create spots. Parmalee has to get enough AB's to see if he can contribute and settle what the Twins need to do with Morneau. It's nice to spend other people's money, but rarely do any of us get the chance. Kansas City and Pittsburg have been 20 -25 year rebuilding plans, so hopefully TR will be able to fix the issues.


And they did nothing but pocket that saved money instead of using it to address other issues. Those moves would have been much more appreciated if they took that saved money and did something with it instead of them cutting 18M off payroll. So, I'm sorry, I don't give him extra credit for that. Those moves still didn't fix the lineup, the health of our #1, #3 and our #5 hitter 'fixed' it.

Additionally, you say 'The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone.'

Really? Not by anyone? It was a bad rotation in 2011, how did we figure it'd be better with practically the same starting pitchers? With the addition of Marquis?

mike wants wins
01-08-2013, 07:29 PM
The Twins offense was better, but I am not sure it was fixed. They moved from 13th in the AL in runs scored to 10th, you may choose how to assess that at your leisure.

darin617
01-08-2013, 07:30 PM
> for ! single A player.

I stopped reading here and wished I had stopped sooner. Suppose the Twins had traded away Joe Mauer in 2002. Should the fans of the receiving team complain that they got a single-A player and nothing more? I don't know (or believe) that Meyer is at Joe's level, but the designation is useless.

Not to mention that Span has not played a full season since 2010 with his concussion effects.
I also never knew until today that Trevor May will be nothing more than bullpen help.
I just hope this thread continues to grow to further my Twins knowledge.

darin617
01-08-2013, 07:36 PM
One might argue that that itself is worthy of complaint (the need vs. talent/ceiling debate).

Buxton especially. He is so young and so raw, and Appel is so close to a sure thing and fills such a pressing need. For the Twins to pass on an asset like that, who could have been had for Feldman-money, might have been the start of the punting of 2013, now that I look back at it.

So when will the Twins ever fast track a player to the majors? Why are we the only organization that has to wait 4-7 YRS for a prospect to develop? So many guys go from Prospect to Suspect in this organization.

darin617
01-08-2013, 07:41 PM
If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?

jokin
01-08-2013, 07:49 PM
Doumit and Willingham were better than Cuddy and Kubel for less money. The fact the starting pitching disintigrated was not to be expected by anyone.

The replacement players were good gets, but they only replaced part of what left, not filling all the holes, still carried a 3rd Catcher which they said they were not going to do again, not even having a set OF on opening day, Doumit made Kubel and Cuddyer look like Gold Glovers and Willingham was only slightly better, Carroll was supposed to be a utility player who ended up getting a career-high in ABs at age 38.

Regarding the SPs, come on, the Twins FO was filled with nothing but dread about the strong likelihood of the worst-case scenario regarding injury history and general suckage and to the positive, simply unexpectedly lucked out in getting Diamond to be the one guy who performed at a major league level. Most fans were aware that in the 2011-12 offseason, the Twins needed to desperately upgrade the Starters from the available Free Agents or make a trade, instead, the Twins chose to go the other way and cut payroll, in a big way... and gave you Marquis as succor for the suckers.

jokin
01-08-2013, 07:57 PM
If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?

Since they appear to be playing for 2015, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and surmise that the Twins would have "rewarded him" by getting the Rule 2 avoidance call-up....in 2014.... & then sell the public that they might be pushing him at "only" the age of 22 (he would turn 23 in August of '14).

gunnarthor
01-08-2013, 08:09 PM
The Twins offense was better, but I am not sure it was fixed. They moved from 13th in the AL in runs scored to 10th, you may choose how to assess that at your leisure.

Runs don't take ball park into consideration. They went from a team 84 OPS+ to 99. Their position players, as a team, went from 0 WAR to 22 WAR. They improved their offense, despite losing Cuddy and Kubel. That was the main question mark heading into last season.

gunnarthor
01-08-2013, 08:12 PM
If Mike Trout was drafted by the Twins in 2009 would he be starting this season at AA?

You realize that Mauer actually had fewer minor league games before he was called up, right? You realize the Twins have had several players go up several levels in one year, including Baker, Garza, Slowey, Liriano and Hendriks?

The Twins rely on their minor leagues more than most teams so you'll get guys like Plouffe who need 6+ years before he's ready. Most teams give up on those guys. But the Twins have pushed their better prospects when they have them.

gunnarthor
01-08-2013, 08:18 PM
The replacement players were good gets, but they only replaced part of what left, not filling all the holes, still carried a 3rd Catcher which they said they were not going to do again, not even having a set OF on opening day, Doumit made Kubel and Cuddyer look like Gold Glovers and Willingham was only slightly better, Carroll was supposed to be a utility player who ended up getting a career-high in ABs at age 38.

I'm not sure how much of this is really valid. Last year, we had issues with RF until Revere took it over but I'm not sure that isn't fairly normal with most teams. The Twins wanted Carroll to hold one MI spot (and he had a decent year) and hoped a guy like Dozier or Plouffe could step up. Plouffe ended up taking over third and had a nice run until his injury. I suspect we'll see something similar this year with CF and RF as the Twins hope that young guys like Hicks, Benson, Parmelee or Arcia step up and take it.

As for last year, however you want to criticize the position players, they ended up being pretty good. Their team WAR was 4th or 5th in the AL (depending on which WAR you use).

mike wants wins
01-08-2013, 08:20 PM
I neither said the offense (offense, not position players) was fixed or not. I said it was improved, and that others could decide if it was fixed or not. I offered no value judgement on that.

jokin
01-08-2013, 08:23 PM
You realize that Mauer actually had fewer minor league games before he was called up, right? You realize the Twins have had several players go up several levels in one year, including Baker, Garza, Slowey, Liriano and Hendriks?

The Twins rely on their minor leagues more than most teams so you'll get guys like Plouffe who need 6+ years before he's ready. Most teams give up on those guys. But the Twins have pushed their better prospects when they have them.

I'd call the Mauer/Trout comparative scenario a draw. Both called up in their 4th minor league season, both 21, Mauer 284 games played, Trout 286. These are 2 very special players.

old nurse
01-08-2013, 08:32 PM
This defense of management explains your moniker- firing the messenger, indeed.

Rule 5 pitchers? Of course it's a crapshoot. Scott Diamond comes to mind. Watch out for Josh Fields in Houston. Ivan Nova would be the Twins ace right now. RA Dickey ring a bell? Those 4 would be a pretty decent rotation, throw in a Kyle Lobstein and Randy Wells as competitors for the number 5 man. Not bad for a crapshoot.

Josh Fields and Randy Wells were never an option for the Twins to draft in the Rule 5 draft. Lobstien has not pitched above AA. All other teams passed on Nova in 2008 as they all had a chance to claim him when San Diego let him go. He had not pitched above high A ball at that time. . Josh Fields has never started in professional baseball.

jokin
01-08-2013, 08:40 PM
I neither said the offense (offense, not position players) was fixed or not. I said it was improved, and that others could decide if it was fixed or not. I offered no value judgement on that.

The offense was improved, not fixed, and now there are some major question marks, as well as holes that need to be replaced, that apparently the club is going to ignore and be content to play with the cards they're holding. I am all in favor of giving Hicks, Arcia and Benson decent shots at some significant playing time, call-up dependent on ST performances. Right now, the Twins have left themselves with Hicks as the only legitimate option as leadoff man ( as much a fan as I am, it would be hard watching the offense as it would take an inevitable, major step backwards with Dozier, Mastro, Escobar and Florimon sporting their combined MLB OBP of <.300 in the #1 spot in the order for 162 games.)

I would hope that Rosario and Santana are physically 100% and gets a call-up at some point after slicing through 2 levels of minor league play.

I wish they'd explore platooning Mauer at 3B, with Parmelee getting his reps at 1B and RF.

Removing Butera from the offense would by itself represent a huge offensive upgrade.

I hope Doumit and Willingham don't regress to their mean.

I hope Morneau (finally) does.

jokin
01-08-2013, 09:03 PM
Josh Fields and Randy Wells were never an option for the Twins to draft in the Rule 5 draft. Lobstien has not pitched above AA. All other teams passed on Nova in 2008 as they all had a chance to claim him when San Diego let him go. He had not pitched above high A ball at that time. . Josh Fields has never started in professional baseball.

The topic was not what the Twins should or would be able to do--- but what was the exact "crapshoot" nature of Rule 5 pitchers in general and the supposition from the poster that the Rule 5 draft is a complete waste of time as there supposedly are never useful pitching prospects that come from it. I think I showed that it is at least theoretically possible to assemble a decent staff from scraps and certainly worth some time to explore the available options thoroughly, especially with an advantageously high set of picks (your case regarding Nova proves my point, there was something there, the Padres did in fact draft him, for whatever reason, they didn't have room for roster retention, so that the Yankees would later receive the full benefits from him). Lobstein and Lara seem like no-brainers at such a low cost of kicking the tires, as did Kehrer in the AAA draft. Lobstein had a very strong year at AA and is only 23 (unlike soft-tossing Pressly who bombed out as a starter at that level and is now projected as a reliever).

Regarding Josh Fields, the Twins drafted about a half a dozen college "live arms"/closers/set-up men in June in hopes of possibly converting them to hard throwing starters. Fields filled that role at Georgia so he possibly fits experimenting with as a starter for a team in as weak a situation as the Twins are in.

kab21
01-08-2013, 09:56 PM
See above in this thread for just a few of the potential Rule 5 and DFA misses, let alone some of the signable and/or flippable FAs, most of which are misses that are clearly better than some that the Twins project to place on the 2013 roster.

Who says that they were better? Some guy on an internet forum?

It wasn't so long ago that BS made a HORRIBLE mistake trading Bullock for a completely unimpressive Rule 5 pick. The Twins have made a lot of misses in Rule 5 but pretty much every pick is a miss so I'm not going to lose sleep over it. My only disappointment is about not willing to put any money into a halfway decent FA. Rule 5's, DFA's, NRI's are a complete crapshoot.

kab21
01-08-2013, 09:59 PM
Josh Fields was an excellent pick. Of course he was #1 so he wasn't available for the Twins.

jokin
01-08-2013, 11:39 PM
. Rule 5's, DFA's, NRI's are a complete crapshoot.

I wish I'd said that, oh wait...

Let's face it, under the current ownership and management, the Twins aren't going to ever spend money on quality, higher-end, game-changing FAs, all the more important to create and/or upgrade the means to more consistently find the buried treasure from the various alternative means from which to stock the club with enough talent to compete like the Rays are forced to do. In Rule 5 in the past, they have hit on Santana and Diamond. On the international front, Sano and Kepler may or may not turn out to be big impact guys down the road. Darren Mastroianni might become one of the occasional DFAs that ends up becoming a keeper.

If they aren't going to spend for proven talent, they have to redouble their efforts to identify and acquire more hidden nuggets of talent. What do they have to lose? The Twins were only one pick after Dan Uggla in 2005 in the Rule 5 draft. It is very arguable that Uggla might have put the Twins over the top more than once from 2006-10. Upgrading this area of informational knowledge is cheap compared to the 8 and 9 figure commitments and inherent risks required to secure top-end talent.



Who says that they were better? Some guy on an internet forum?

Uhh, no, I'm fairly certain that stats and needs were the objective criteria; the player's performances speak for themselves.

Fire Dan Gladden
01-08-2013, 11:48 PM
The topic was not what the Twins should or would be able to do--- but what was the exact "crapshoot" nature of Rule 5 pitchers in general and the supposition from the poster that the Rule 5 draft is a complete waste of time as there supposedly are never useful pitching prospects that come from it. I think I showed that it is at least theoretically possible to assemble a decent staff from scraps and certainly worth some time to explore the available options thoroughly, especially with an advantageously high set of picks (your case regarding Nova proves my point, there was something there, the Padres did in fact draft him, for whatever reason, they didn't have room for roster retention, so that the Yankees would later receive the full benefits from him). Lobstein and Lara seem like no-brainers at such a low cost of kicking the tires, as did Kehrer in the AAA draft. Lobstein had a very strong year at AA and is only 23 (unlike soft-tossing Pressly who bombed out as a starter at that level and is now projected as a reliever).

Regarding Josh Fields, the Twins drafted about a half a dozen college "live arms"/closers/set-up men in June in hopes of possibly converting them to hard throwing starters. Fields filled that role at Georgia so he possibly fits experimenting with as a starter for a team in as weak a situation as the Twins are in.

Are you reading my mind now? How did we go from crapshoot to "complete waste of time"?

Are you honestly going to tell me that picking the scraps of other teams minor league systems will get you to produce a viable pitching staff? You're kidding right? All the guys in the low minors have warts, hence being left unprotected. As for live arms, go ask Sam Doduno.

Look at the Rule 5 history: Rule 5 draft results - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_5_draft_results) Recognize many people on this list? Me neither.

In theory you could build a rotation out of that. In theory I could conquer Asia with a spoon, but it ain't gonna happen.

FYI... RA Dickey was taken by Seattle in the 2008 Rule 5 draft. Worked really well for them too. He went 5-8, 5.21 ERA, 1.56 WHIP that year. Yep, you can really build em.

johnnydakota
01-09-2013, 01:49 AM
So we have you to blame since you must be one of Terry Ryan's advisors...

If the Twins were gonna draft anyone in the Rule 5 draft they should have grabbed a pitcher who can actually throw heat. Not a guy like Pressly.
with out looking up stats , i believe he brings it at 96 or more...and 98mph fireballing lefty was avalible with a 2nd pick,if you wanted more power

johnnydakota
01-09-2013, 01:53 AM
Not to mention that Span has not played a full season since 2010 with his concussion effects.
I also never knew until today that Trevor May will be nothing more than bullpen help.
I just hope this thread continues to grow to further my Twins knowledge.

i think i said many are already projecting May as a bullpen pitcher....well what do you do with a starter who has an era over 4.80?

Brock Beauchamp
01-09-2013, 07:34 AM
How did Ryan 'fix' the lineup last offseason? Span, Morny and Mauer got healthy...that is what happened.

We got Willingham and Doumit, but we lost Kubel and Cuddy.

He picked up better contribution at more important positions for FAR less money. What more did you want out of the guy (regarding the lineup)?

He bombed at acquiring pitching but it's damn hard to fault him for his lineup acquisitions.

Brock Beauchamp
01-09-2013, 07:37 AM
FYI... RA Dickey was taken by Seattle in the 2008 Rule 5 draft. Worked really well for them too. He went 5-8, 5.21 ERA, 1.56 WHIP that year. Yep, you can really build em.

Yeah... Asking a team to build a rotation from the Rule 5 by pointing out that all of baseball has almost drafted a decent rotation over a five year period in the Rule 5 is a bit... Disingenuous at best. Two years ago, the Twins picked up Diamond and he has become a productive starter for the team. You can't ask for much more than that, as it's more than the vast majority of baseball has gotten from the Rule 5 draft in the past several years.

You can fault the Twins for a lot of things but the Rule 5 ain't one of 'em. They've done a decent job of gaming that market over the past 15 years.

ThePuck
01-09-2013, 09:04 AM
He picked up better contribution at more important positions for FAR less money. What more did you want out of the guy (regarding the lineup)?

He bombed at acquiring pitching but it's damn hard to fault him for his lineup acquisitions.

I wasn't slamming the Willingham and Doumit signings. I like those signings. After the Twins 2011 season came to an end, before the 2011 postseason even finished, I was saying we needed to get those two guys.

What I was saying is that Ryan didn't fix the lineup by getting those two guys. It didn't 'fix' the lineup as the poster suggested. They replaced Cuddy and Kubel. What 'fixed' the lineup was having a healthy Span, Mauer and Morny.

When quoting my post, you missed the rest:

'And, this offseason, how has he done anything more than hurt it?' 'It' being the lineup. Any thoughts on that?

kab21
01-09-2013, 09:37 AM
I wish I'd said that, oh wait...

Let's face it, under the current ownership and management, the Twins aren't going to ever spend money on quality, higher-end, game-changing FAs, all the more important to create and/or upgrade the means to more consistently find the buried treasure from the various alternative means from which to stock the club with enough talent to compete like the Rays are forced to do. In Rule 5 in the past, they have hit on Santana and Diamond. On the international front, Sano and Kepler may or may not turn out to be big impact guys down the road. Darren Mastroianni might become one of the occasional DFAs that ends up becoming a keeper.

If they aren't going to spend for proven talent, they have to redouble their efforts to identify and acquire more hidden nuggets of talent. What do they have to lose? The Twins were only one pick after Dan Uggla in 2005 in the Rule 5 draft. It is very arguable that Uggla might have put the Twins over the top more than once from 2006-10. Upgrading this area of informational knowledge is cheap compared to the 8 and 9 figure commitments and inherent risks required to secure top-end talent.

Uhh, no, I'm fairly certain that stats and needs were the objective criteria; the player's performances speak for themselves.

It's like you aren't even aware that the Twins picked up a rule 5 pick and an excellent NRI this offseason. Since you seem to be second guessing the Twins I would like to know what you think about Pressley and his potential? And why are you smarter than the Twins about obscure minor leaguers?

gunnarthor
01-09-2013, 09:39 AM
I wasn't slamming the Willingham and Doumit signings. I like those signings. After the Twins 2011 season came to an end, before the 2011 postseason even finished, I was saying we needed to get those two guys.

What I was saying is that Ryan didn't fix the lineup by getting those two guys. It didn't 'fix' the lineup as the poster suggested. They replaced Cuddy and Kubel. What 'fixed' the lineup was having a healthy Span, Mauer and Morny.

When quoting my post, you missed the rest:

'And, this offseason, how has he done anything more than hurt it?' 'It' being the lineup. Any thoughts on that?

Not sure he's 'hurt' the lineup, at least in any real sense. Clearly, with Revere and Span gone it opens up some spots that we all are hoping the younger guys can step in and take. Eventually, that had to happen. So, while I'm sure Hicks, Benson and Arcia will struggle (at least offensively) trying to get them into the lineup was something that had to be done. By your logic, the Twins hurt their lineup when they decided to trade Dougie Baseball or AJ to let Mauer and Morneau get their shots. It has to be done. The interesting thing will be how well Plouffe and Parmelee play this season. I think our offense will go as those two go.

ThePuck
01-09-2013, 10:29 AM
By your logic, the Twins hurt their lineup when they decided to trade Dougie Baseball or AJ to let Mauer and Morneau get their shots. It has to be done. The interesting thing will be how well Plouffe and Parmelee play this season. I think our offense will go as those two go.

Except in Mauer's case, he was a #1 pick who was tearing the cover off the ball and everyone knew he was coming up to replace AJ. In Doug's case, he was traded after we had seen Morny and so we knew exactly who was taking his place. And the moves didn't happen at the same time. Who is filling the one and two spot this year?

jokin
01-09-2013, 02:35 PM
Yeah... Asking a team to build a rotation from the Rule 5 by pointing out that all of baseball has almost drafted a decent rotation over a five year period in the Rule 5 is a bit... Disingenuous at best. Two years ago, the Twins picked up Diamond and he has become a productive starter for the team. You can't ask for much more than that, as it's more than the vast majority of baseball has gotten from the Rule 5 draft in the past several years.

You can fault the Twins for a lot of things but the Rule 5 ain't one of 'em. They've done a decent job of gaming that market over the past 15 years.

Disingenuous? Really? I clearly stated that is was all theoretical and that the Rule 5 is a crapshoot, where being forearmed can pay dividends, Diamond demonstrated that fact. I responded to those who said that looking for players in that venue is a complete waste of time, I demonstrated that that is a false assertion and the Twins are living proof of that. Moreover, since they won't spend what it takes for the quick fix, I graphically stated it makes financial sense that the Twins need to improve and redouble their efforts in all of the 4 talent-acquisitiion venues that actually are the topic in this thread.

Not taking virtually no-cost flyers in the Rule 5 Draft's various phases on the likes of the guys I mentioned is what I was referring to. Lara should have been a no-brainer.

I went on to show that the Marlins picked up 3 very intriguing prospects in this year's draft with virtually no down-side risk, without disingenuity.

70charger
01-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Literally nobody said that Rule 5 was a waste of time. Literally. Nobody. Go back and run a search.

Get over your ideology and listen for a second.

jokin
01-09-2013, 02:49 PM
He bombed at acquiring pitching but it's damn hard to fault him for his lineup acquisitions.

Since Pitching is at least 75% of baseball, last year was a major Fail, but I don't fault TR for his lineup acquisitions on the 25% aspect of baseball, just a general lack thereof- they didn't completely replace the manpower lost in 2011, still waiting for the MIers above replacement level to surface.

snepp
01-09-2013, 02:55 PM
I'm 85% certain that pitching is more like 35% of baseball.

jokin
01-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Literally nobody said that Rule 5 was a waste of time. Literally. Nobody. Go back and run a search.

Get over your ideology and listen for a second.

Literally, no. Figuratively, repeatedly.

Crapshoot was the characterization. Here are some of the synonyms:







Synonyms:
shot in the dark, iffy proposition, time-waster, big chance, risk (http://thesaurus.com/browse/risk), risky business, spin of the roulette wheel




a venture undertaken without regard to possible loss or injury

I believe that taking a flyer on the likes of Lara literally represents significantly minimal risk with little waste of time.

70charger
01-09-2013, 03:49 PM
You are just scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.

kab21
01-09-2013, 05:07 PM
let's summarize this thread. The Twins FO failed because they didn't get a pair of hard throwing RP'ers that have been terrible in A ball, their original teams didn't believe in them and EVERY TEAM in the majors passed on them. You're making an awesome argument so far.

I'm still waiting for you to say why you think Pressly was a bad pick. As of right now you're just some random guy on the internet that is spouting off with very little substance. The Twins might make some questionable choices but they have done well in the past with Rule 5, NRI's and DFA's.



I went on to show that the Marlins picked up 3 very intriguing prospects in this year's draft with virtually no down-side risk, without disingenuity.You've only shown that you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you really want the Twins to be more like the Marlins? Do you know why the Marlins are loading their team up with Rule 5 players? It's because they traded their entire team away and are likely to start with a <20M payroll (if they trade Nolasco). They NEED a bunch of castoffs just to field a team and they are terrible aside from Stanton.

johnnydakota
01-09-2013, 05:21 PM
let's summarize this thread. The Twins FO failed because they didn't get a pair of hard throwing RP'ers that have been terrible in A ball, their original teams didn't believe in them and EVERY TEAM in the majors passed on them. You're making an awesome argument so far.

I'm still waiting for you to say why you think Pressly was a bad pick. As of right now you're just some random guy on the internet that is spouting off with very little substance. The Twins might make some questionable choices but they have done well in the past with Rule 5, NRI's and DFA's.

You've only shown that you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you really want the Twins to be more like the Marlins? Do you know why the Marlins are loading their team up with Rule 5 players? It's because they traded their entire team away and are likely to start with a <20M payroll (if they trade Nolasco). They NEED a bunch of castoffs just to field a team and they are terrible aside from Stanton.

How many world series wins do the marlins have since 1991? Children born after theTwins last world series victory are now bar hopping.
While not a fan of Loria(he should be banned from baseball) at least from time to time they go all in...

old nurse
01-09-2013, 05:43 PM
Literally, no. Figuratively, repeatedly.

Crapshoot was the characterization. Here are some of the synonyms:



Synonyms:
shot in the dark, iffy proposition, time-waster, big chance, risk (http://thesaurus.com/browse/risk), risky business, spin of the roulette wheel



a venture undertaken without regard to possible loss or injury

I believe that taking a flyer on the likes of Lara literally represents significantly minimal risk with little waste of time.

Lara did not even pitch that well in high A ball at age 23. Tampa thought so highly of him they left him unprotected. Although Diamond was a rule 5 pickup it took a trade for a then decent prospect to keep him. Two of your other players still have not pitched at a major league level. Yes it costs little to take a flyer on a player. Shouldn't you have a thorough scouting report so you would not need a flyer? The Twins would have had plenty of views of Lara as they played in many of the same minor leagues?

kab21
01-09-2013, 05:48 PM
How many world series wins do the marlins have since 1991? Children born after theTwins last world series victory are now bar hopping.
While not a fan of Loria(he should be banned from baseball) at least from time to time they go all in...

Did you really think about that before you typed it or do you just like to irrationally spout off? I cannot even imagine the complaining that you would do if the Twins traded their entire team away like the Marlins. Especially since the Marlins did it solely to cut payroll and didn't receive the best prospects back.

Loria wasn't responsible for the Marlins WS wins and overall this is a really weak argument. No team regardless of how 'all in' they go have a better than 25% chance at winning the WS in a postseason. The Marlins got lucky.

Brandon
01-09-2013, 05:59 PM
The one thing Terry Ryan is known for is raiding other teams minor leagues. How many rule 5 picks have they made that worked out to some degree? Shane Mack (actually andy MacPhail) Santana (actually traded from rule 5), Buscher, Diamond, there were others that played in the majors Ryan Rowland-Smith and there was an OF that played a few years for the Mets as a 4th/ 5th OF. Plus all of the trades Ryan has made on top of that for prospects. while the Twins could take Lara in the draft or Pressley doesnt make a difference, as long as they get a chance in spring training to see what they have. Terry Ryan is good at aquiring other teams prospects. He was so good at it that teams stopped trading him prospects for a while or were at least gun shy about it. Teams would actually re-evaluate players Twins were willing to aquire.

Brock Beauchamp
01-09-2013, 08:21 PM
*headdesk*

johnnydakota
01-11-2013, 05:40 PM
Toronto DFA Tommy Hottovy a few minutes ago , even though he is older he did have a good ERA and 11Ks/9 and under 3W/9
wouldnt he be a cheap pickup to give Robertson some competition in spring training?

johnnydakota
01-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Lara did not even pitch that well in high A ball at age 23. Tampa thought so highly of him they left him unprotected. Although Diamond was a rule 5 pickup it took a trade for a then decent prospect to keep him. Two of your other players still have not pitched at a major league level. Yes it costs little to take a flyer on a player. Shouldn't you have a thorough scouting report so you would not need a flyer? The Twins would have had plenty of views of Lara as they played in many of the same minor leagues?

diamond was taken in the rule 5 draft also , which means he was left unprotected....when the twins wanted to send him down , it took a trade to keep him, also Lara was a starter , and in winter ball has been doing very good in relief....you know kinda like Perkins did

johnnydakota
01-11-2013, 05:50 PM
Did you really think about that before you typed it or do you just like to irrationally spout off? I cannot even imagine the complaining that you would do if the Twins traded their entire team away like the Marlins. Especially since the Marlins did it solely to cut payroll and didn't receive the best prospects back.

Loria wasn't responsible for the Marlins WS wins and overall this is a really weak argument. No team regardless of how 'all in' they go have a better than 25% chance at winning the WS in a postseason. The Marlins got lucky.
why yes i did , then i did the math , then i typed it ....as for the Marlins part, well i think if we are rebuilding we should have traded joe and justin with a couple of other players to texas for olt and profar.....because as long as we straddle the fense we will end up with only BLUEBALLS

twinsfaninsaudi
01-13-2013, 04:14 AM
How so many people can continue to defend or carry praise for Terry Ryan bewilders me, he has failed to safe guard our assets or to improve the team, the only thing he has managed to do is eliminate payroll .

He'll have the last laugh, you'll see. I <3 TR

johnnydakota
01-13-2013, 07:41 AM
He'll have the last laugh, you'll see. I <3 TR

He already is laughing as he takes his check to the bank, when the 2013 season is over we will probally see our payroll was closer to 70 million , then 80 million , so that means 40 million will have been eliminated from payroll, and the twins will continue to lose...
What happened to the promises that were made when they begged for money for a new stadium?
If justin is traded and we pay only 7 million of his salary then our payroll is less then 73 million ,about what it was in the dome days.
It is very posible we open 2014 with a payroll of less then 60 million....

So yes Terry is having the last laugh, as St. Pete orders more brinks trucks ....

Bill Rigney
01-13-2013, 11:09 AM
He already is laughing as he takes his check to the bank, when the 2013 season is over we will probally see our payroll was closer to 70 million , then 80 million , so that means 40 million will have been eliminated from payroll, and the twins will continue to lose...
What happened to the promises that were made when they begged for money for a new stadium?
If justin is traded and we pay only 7 million of his salary then our payroll is less then 73 million ,about what it was in the dome days.
It is very posible we open 2014 with a payroll of less then 60 million....

So yes Terry is having the last laugh, as St. Pete orders more brinks trucks ....






2012 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20121201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2012&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2012&league_code=%27AL%27)

66

96

.407

22.0


2,776,354



2011 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20111201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2011&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2011&league_code=%27AL%27)

63

99

.389

32.0

5

3,168,107



2010 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20101201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2010&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2010&league_code=%27AL%27)

94

68

.580

-

1

3,223,640



2009 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20091201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2009&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2009&league_code=%27AL%27)

87

76

.534

-

1

2,416,237



2008 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20081201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2008&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2008&league_code=%27AL%27)

88

75

.540

1.0

2

2,302,431



2007 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20071201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2007&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2007&league_code=%27AL%27)

79

83

.488

17.0

3

2,296,347



2006 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20061201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2006&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2006&league_code=%27AL%27)

96

66

.593

-

1

2,285,018



2005 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20051201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2005&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2005&league_code=%27AL%27)

83

79

.512

16.0

3

2,034,243



2004 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20041201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2004&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2004&league_code=%27AL%27)

92

70

.568

-

1

1,911,490



2003 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20031201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2003&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2003&league_code=%27AL%27)

90

72

.556

-

1

1,946,011



2002 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20021201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2002&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2002&league_code=%27AL%27)

94

67

.584

-

1

1,924,473



2001 (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/standings/index.jsp#20011201)

Minnesota Twins (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=ALL&season=2001&team_id=142)

American League (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=st&season=2001&league_code=%27AL%27)

85

77

.525

6.0

2

1,782,926

h2oface
01-13-2013, 06:05 PM
3) Denard Span was NEVER a stellar outfielder. He's a decent, slightly above average centerfielder with a mediocre arm, that couldn't go BACK on a ball to save his life.

Look out! ThePuck is bound to have all kinds of fervor about this one.............

h2oface
01-13-2013, 06:23 PM
Look out! ThePuck is bound to have all kinds of fervor about this one.............

Sorry..... I posted as a read from the beginning not noticing that the thread had gone postal. No delete, so I apologize here. It was preditable, though, eh ThePuck? ;-)

ThePuck
01-13-2013, 06:48 PM
Sorry..... I posted as a read from the beginning not noticing that the thread had gone postal. No delete, so I apologize here. It was preditable, though, eh ThePuck? ;-)

Indeed :-)

jokin
01-14-2013, 11:27 AM
let's summarize this thread. The Twins FO failed because they didn't get a pair of hard throwing RP'ers that have been terrible in A ball, their original teams didn't believe in them and EVERY TEAM in the majors passed on them. You're making an awesome argument so far.

I'm still waiting for you to say why you think Pressly was a bad pick. As of right now you're just some random guy on the internet that is spouting off with very little substance. The Twins might make some questionable choices but they have done well in the past with Rule 5, NRI's and DFA's.

You've only shown that you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you really want the Twins to be more like the Marlins? Do you know why the Marlins are loading their team up with Rule 5 players? It's because they traded their entire team away and are likely to start with a <20M payroll (if they trade Nolasco). They NEED a bunch of castoffs just to field a team and they are terrible aside from Stanton.

"Random spouting guy" right back at ya, I think your prose has sprung a couple leaks on the port side. Your constant personal bombardment added richly to the conversaton. I believe I've demonstrated with facts and figures that I have some idea of what I'm talking about. Regarding Pressly, I never criticized the pick, ever. The Twins got the "best pitcher available" in their draft position. They played it safe with the pick. Pressly had recently demonstrated that he was destined for permanent relief duty. I woud say there's a slight-to-decent chance that he can eventually take Swarzack's job, at 3 years his younger and about half the mileage on the tires and potentially provide a small upgrade over Swarzack (although, Swarzack actually had very slightly better minor league numbers).

Meanwhile, Kyle Lobtein (age 23) was a year younger than Pressly, has played to the same level as Pressly (AA), has better minor league numbers than both Pressly and Swarzack to the same point in their respective careers, and has yet to fail as a Starter. He was brought up through an organization (Rays) that has a reputation for developing pitchers; unsurprisingly, he apparently was blocked by even better prospects.
He actually demonstrated in the draft that there was more than passing interest in him, the Mets drafted him and immediately flipped him for cash to the Tigers. Trusting that the Twins had a decent look at him, they felt he was a little riskier than Pressly and passed (A comp might be DeVries, who remains in SP Twins pitching depth, Lobstein is 4.5 years youngers with better minor league stats to the same point in development). The stats suggest that, given the Twins desperate need for starters, it might have been worth the exta risk.

The main argument was about passing on Lara in the 2nd round. Virtually nothing was at risk in kicking the tires on a very rare skill set. Head-scratching that anyone would criticize such a move for a team currently grasping at any possible color of straw to fill their woeful pitching needs (Read Phil Mackie's best-case Twins scenario for simply an attempt at pitching mediocrity: 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) (http://www.1500espn.com/))

Regarding the Marlins, you really demonstrated your lack of appreciation for irony---- but sincere grasp of the obvious.

70charger (http://twinsdaily.com/members/70charger.html) liked this. Of course he did...

kab21
01-15-2013, 01:27 AM
The problem that is becoming increasingly obvious is that you know nothing about the players that you are talking about. You are so completely infatuated with Lara's 100 mph fastball that you don't even notice that he completely sucked AND CAN'T EVEN K A BALL HITTERS. there's a reason why EVERY MLB TEAM passed on him AT LEAST ONCE. There are plenty of things to criticize the Twins about but rule 5 picks are not it. I'll certainly take the Twins analysis over the some random guy on the internet that has never seen any of the talked about players EVER play.

Here's an example of your analysis that is questionable and show that you don't know what you are talking about:


Lobstein and Lara seem like no-brainers at such a low cost of kicking the tires, as did Kehrer in the AAA draft. Lobstein had a very strong year at AA and is only 23 (unlike soft-tossing Pressly who bombed out as a starter at that level and is now projected as a reliever).

Pressly is not a soft tosser and the Tigers didn't take Lobstein as a starter. He would have been an interesting pick but he's been relatively unimpressive and has unimpressive stuff.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the Marlins. If you're saying that you like the direction of that franchise then WOW! Things are much worse in Miami. I would not trade places with a Marlins fan at all.