PDA

View Full Version : Article: Is Terry Ryan Leaving Gardenhire Hung Out to Dry?



Dez Tobin
01-01-2013, 07:44 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1276-Is-Terry-Ryan-Leaving-Gardenhire-Hung-Out-to-Dry

Brock Beauchamp
01-01-2013, 07:52 PM
Great write-up.

Danchat
01-01-2013, 07:57 PM
Outside of Kevin Correia, I think TR had a good offseason. However, I believe we are going to lose 90-plus games again and possibly hit the 100 loss barrier. Gardenhire is being left out to dry if he has to turn around this team in 2013.

SpantheMan
01-01-2013, 08:28 PM
How many win do the twins he to get for Gardy to get resigned? I would resign him if the twins get 75 wins. But I think TR will go a different way unless he twins are .500.

twinsnorth49
01-01-2013, 08:52 PM
I don't think T.R. is setting up Gardy to fail, in fact I think that notion is ridiculous considering Ryan's principles. Having said that I don't think Gardy is in the plans beyond this year with the focus of the team clearly being the future. What I will find interesting is how Ryan may deal with that if somehow Gardy manages to get this team around .500. A record in and around there would have to be considered a pretty big success and the exit strategy conceivably altered.

beckmt
01-01-2013, 08:54 PM
Question is did Gardenhire insist on Rick Anderson being retained and therefore linked the two fates together. I see little chance of the Twins doing well enough to save his job. Look at this list.
1. Hicks or Benson turn into at least serviceable players, so the centerfield hole is filled with Span type numbers.
2. Plouffe turns into be a decent playballer and hits .270 with 25 - 30 homeruns
3. Parmalee proves he can hit major league pitching and hits 30 doubles, 15 homeruns and a .280 BA
4. Mauer and Morneau both have good years and stay off the DL.
5. Twins find that Dozier, Carroll, Floriman are decent defenders all all hit in the .260 - .270 range.
6. Twins starting pitchers ERA is a little over 4, as Rich Harden returns to form and Worley, Diamond, and Gibson are all solid. One of Pelfrey or Correria becomes the #5 starter and the other takes Swarzak's spot.
7. Bullpen is solid as Perkins. Burton, Fien and Duesing all do good jobs out of the pen.

This is way to much to expect to get to .500 or slightly over, but it would be great if it happened.

Fire Dan Gladden
01-01-2013, 09:58 PM
Question is did Gardenhire insist on Rick Anderson being retained and therefore linked the two fates together. I see little chance of the Twins doing well enough to save his job. Look at this list.
1. Hicks or Benson turn into at least serviceable players, so the centerfield hole is filled with Span type numbers.
2. Plouffe turns into be a decent playballer and hits .270 with 25 - 30 homeruns
3. Parmalee proves he can hit major league pitching and hits 30 doubles, 15 homeruns and a .280 BA
4. Mauer and Morneau both have good years and stay off the DL.
5. Twins find that Dozier, Carroll, Floriman are decent defenders all all hit in the .260 - .270 range.
6. Twins starting pitchers ERA is a little over 4, as Rich Harden returns to form and Worley, Diamond, and Gibson are all solid. One of Pelfrey or Correria becomes the #5 starter and the other takes Swarzak's spot.
7. Bullpen is solid as Perkins. Burton, Fien and Duesing all do good jobs out of the pen.

This is way to much to expect to get to .500 or slightly over, but it would be great if it happened.

If all of these things happen, the Twins would probably be in the hunt for a playoff spot.

johnnydakota
01-01-2013, 10:08 PM
How many win do the twins he to get for Gardy to get resigned? I would resign him if the twins get 75 wins. But I think TR will go a different way unless he twins are .500.

Unless they win the world series , it is 5 years since Ron needed to find a new job....and needs to take Terry with him

twinsnorth49
01-01-2013, 10:15 PM
Unless they win the world series , it is 5 years since Ron needed to find a new job....and needs to take Terry with him

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/1056.gif To 364 more days of head scratching posts!

Kwak
01-01-2013, 10:19 PM
I think the decision on Garden hire is at least 99% made--but it could be either! Extending him after last year would have caused an uproar--but Ryan could have fired him too, but didn't. Thus, this could go either way--he's gone unless a miracle happens, or he stays if even a bit of progress was shown--it's just not clear.

Top Gun
01-01-2013, 10:21 PM
Gardy has at least some control,but where does it leave the Twins fans? TR has put the Twins fans out to dry with his promises. It's just to bad that clev, and KC can improve but we can't., if the present looks bad, what does that say about the future?

Top Gun
01-01-2013, 10:43 PM
FOX Sports' Jon Paul Morosi reports that the Indians "have had dialogue" with Shaun Marcum.

Morosi says "it's not clear yet" whether Cleveland's signing of Brett Myers will affect a potential pursuit of Marcum. The Indians have room in their rotation for another addition, but it remains to be seen if they have enough cash to make it happen. Marcum has also drawn interest from the Royals, Twins and Padres.

lee_the_twins_fan
01-01-2013, 10:47 PM
Question is did Gardenhire insist on Rick Anderson being retained and therefore linked the two fates together. I see little chance of the Twins doing well enough to save his job. Look at this list.
1. Hicks or Benson turn into at least serviceable players, so the centerfield hole is filled with Span type numbers.
2. Plouffe turns into be a decent playballer and hits .270 with 25 - 30 homeruns
3. Parmalee proves he can hit major league pitching and hits 30 doubles, 15 homeruns and a .280 BA
4. Mauer and Morneau both have good years and stay off the DL.
5. Twins find that Dozier, Carroll, Floriman are decent defenders all all hit in the .260 - .270 range.
6. Twins starting pitchers ERA is a little over 4, as Rich Harden returns to form and Worley, Diamond, and Gibson are all solid. One of Pelfrey or Correria becomes the #5 starter and the other takes Swarzak's spot.
7. Bullpen is solid as Perkins. Burton, Fien and Duesing all do good jobs out of the pen.

This is way to much to expect to get to .500 or slightly over, but it would be great if it happened.

If all of those things happened, the Twins would be way better than .500. They'd take second in the conference.
Despite people's aversion to Correia, he's a better pitcher than you think. Their starting pitching will be way better than last year. * *I expect Parmelee to do about the same as last year not encouraging. He'll be down in AAA with Hicks or Arcia or both in the majors. Harden, Pelfrey and Gibson are the biggest question marks.*

If the Twins can gel together and start out strong, they could have a very good season. I believe they will be better than last year. If BeckMT's list of things happen, they're an 88-win team. If not, they're an 80-win team. If the wheels fall off the bus completely which I don't expect given the players they have signed they're a 75-win team.

old nurse
01-01-2013, 11:29 PM
Gardenhire will be retained or let go by how well he gets the team to play. Coaches were brought in to help with the need to help the pitchers, hitting and catching. If the players that need to show improvement improve, Gardenhire will be kept. If not, he will be gone.

GoMNTwins
01-01-2013, 11:46 PM
I think Gardy should be given his walking papers. Not because he's a bad manager, I just think it's time for new blood throughout the organization, including the people above Gardenhire in the front office. I just think that if Gardenhire is held accountable for Ryan's complete lack of effort and is ultimately let go, it's just going to make Ryan and the Pohlads look bad, worse than they do already.

Blackjack
01-02-2013, 08:03 AM
Gardenhire will be retained or let go by how well he gets the team to play. Coaches were brought in to help with the need to help the pitchers, hitting and catching. If the players that need to show improvement improve, Gardenhire will be kept. If not, he will be gone.

I agree, if the team plays hard all season, he'll stay - if he wants too. You gotta think that three losing seasons would wear on him, hes banked some good coin, he may want to go the Tom Kelly route and just go back to coaching.

Speaking of coaches, I like Gardy but I am dispointed that he didn't show some spine, when TR fired HIS coaches, Gardy should have said "I'm out of here".

Blackjack
01-02-2013, 08:07 AM
Question is did Gardenhire insist on Rick Anderson being retained and therefore linked the two fates together. I see little chance of the Twins doing well enough to save his job. Look at this list.
1. Hicks or Benson turn into at least serviceable players, so the centerfield hole is filled with Span type numbers.
2. Plouffe turns into be a decent playballer and hits .270 with 25 - 30 homeruns
3. Parmalee proves he can hit major league pitching and hits 30 doubles, 15 homeruns and a .280 BA
4. Mauer and Morneau both have good years and stay off the DL.
5. Twins find that Dozier, Carroll, Floriman are decent defenders all all hit in the .260 - .270 range.
6. Twins starting pitchers ERA is a little over 4, as Rich Harden returns to form and Worley, Diamond, and Gibson are all solid. One of Pelfrey or Correria becomes the #5 starter and the other takes Swarzak's spot.
7. Bullpen is solid as Perkins. Burton, Fien and Duesing all do good jobs out of the pen.

This is way to much to expect to get to .500 or slightly over, but it would be great if it happened.

Isn't this the way the Twins are always built, meaning all the pieces have to fall together, stay away from injuries, have the stars align just right, in order to win?? When was the last time that they had enough talent to be overwhelming favorites going into a season??

Brock Beauchamp
01-02-2013, 08:12 AM
Isn't this the way the Twins are always built, meaning all the pieces have to fall together, stay away from injuries, have the stars align just right, in order to win?? When was the last time that they had enough talent to be overwhelming favorites going into a season??

I think you're underestimating how much talent the Twins have had in past years, particularly 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2010. Teams don't just blindly stumble into five 90 win seasons in a decade through dumb luck.

JB_Iowa
01-02-2013, 08:41 AM
There is always another possibility. Maybe, despite his public comments, Gardenhire intends to step aside after the 2013 season (step aside as in retire or move to another position with the club). I know that is contrary to everything he has said in public but given his age and health (I keep remembering his brother's heart-related death), it is not inconceivable to me.

If that is not his intention, I still don't know that a losing season means that Gardenhire is gone. There would probably be some public demand for Gardenhire to resign but perhaps not as much as there would be for Ryan to resign. Giving Gardenhire such mediocrity to work with may actually be protecting his job as long as the results are in the mediocre range (losses about 90 or less).

Jim Crikket
01-02-2013, 09:58 AM
I actually suspect that Gardenhire and Ryan have already agreed that this will be his final year, regardless of results. He'll move in to a "consulting" role after this season. I don't think Ryan would have left Gardy twisting in the wind and then not given him a legit MLB roster (and I don't think Gardy would have been so laid back about that happening) if they hadn't already come to an agreement about what's going to happen next year.

mike wants wins
01-02-2013, 10:13 AM
If pitching free agents do not want to come here, why would Gardy want to stay? There will be options for him if he wants them, I believe.

beckmt
01-02-2013, 10:13 AM
I wrote the piece as a way to show how bad a hand Gardenhire has for this year. Pitching rates to be better, but to trade Span and Revere and expect the hitting will improve is asking way to much. Pitching wins, but the Twins could have below average offense in Right Field, Center Field, Third Base and Shortstop(this is giving Carroll a pass as a full time second baseman and hoping he will be average). It could be difficult for the 6th hitter in the Twins order to produce, because he will be pitched around and the 7,8 and 9 hitters do not seem to be a threat to competent pitchers. I could be one of the lower order could come through, but the Twins pitching is not good enough to give 2 - 3 innings a game away for the hitting.

jay
01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
If not, they're an 80-win team. If the wheels fall off the bus completely which I don't expect given the players they have signed they're a 75-win team.

We certainly haven't upgraded the offense or bullpen with acquisitions. I'm not so sure I think Harden, Pelfrey, and Correia will net the Twins 14 wins even if the wheels 'stay on'.

chagen
01-02-2013, 11:55 AM
I don't believe Terry Ryan is hanging Gardenhire out to dry on purpose. Terry realizes how the Twins do is just as much if not more a reflection on him and how he acquires talent to play with.

Now do I believe he's done a great job on acquiring talent the shore answer is NO!

James
01-02-2013, 12:50 PM
I actually suspect that Gardenhire and Ryan have already agreed that this will be his final year, regardless of results. He'll move in to a "consulting" role after this season. I don't think Ryan would have left Gardy twisting in the wind and then not given him a legit MLB roster (and I don't think Gardy would have been so laid back about that happening) if they hadn't already come to an agreement about what's going to happen next year.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I can't see the Twins firing a manager, especially not the beloved Gardy (I know that not everyone loves him, but he's generally well liked by fans). I'm pretty sure that they told him they weren't going to renew his contract, but they weren't going to directly fire him, giving him a chance to stay with the organization in another role. It's going to be very Minnesota passive/aggressive.

Boom Boom
01-02-2013, 02:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that Gardy will get a 2 or 3 year contract after this season, regardless of how the team performs. Not giving him an extension this offseason is just a smokescreen to convince fans that the Twins really will hold their manager accountable.

The 2013 Twins still look bad on paper and I don't think that's going to change a whole lot before the start of the season. If the Twins march to 95+ losses again, I'm sure we'll hear how Gardy just wasn't given enough to work with.

cmathewson
01-02-2013, 05:16 PM
TR has had a solid offseason. I'd say it was a very good offseason if he'd chosen to sign McCarthy instead of Correia. But that's my only quibble, really. They've got $20 million in the bank in case they surprise some people and remain in the hunt in July. If not, let the rebuilding continue with Willingham and possibly Morneau.

I don't think winning is TR's main goal this year. He wants to build for the future. In that context, the thing Gardy needs to do to keep his job is what has has not done in his managing career: Develop a young infield. Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his impatience with young players, especially infielders. Three of the four infield spots have been revolving doors since Guzy, Rivas and Koskie left. His intolerance of mistakes have scuttled the careers of several promising infield prospects. His patience will be tried this year. He won't have a job at the end of the year if he keeps the doors revolving at second, short and third.

Thrylos
01-02-2013, 05:35 PM
I actually suspect that Gardenhire and Ryan have already agreed that this will be his final year, regardless of results. He'll move in to a "consulting" role after this season. I don't think Ryan would have left Gardy twisting in the wind and then not given him a legit MLB roster (and I don't think Gardy would have been so laid back about that happening) if they hadn't already come to an agreement about what's going to happen next year.

That.

The Twins were very charitable in bringing in Gardy back after 99 and 96 losses and kept his buddies as coaches (other than shuffling the deck). The changes after those 2 awful seasons in a row were very small and Gardy and Co were unscratched. (Like Stelly and Jerry were the 2 who needed to be thrown under the bus...)

I also thing that if the Twins are not respectable, Ryan will probably go away too... he is part of the mess as well.

Gardy will resign after the season and pick up another hobby (like TK did with horses)

Thrylos
01-02-2013, 05:38 PM
Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his impatience with young players, especially infielders. .

I don't think that anyone who watched TK towards the end would agree with this statement ;)
Agreed. TK of the late 80s was great with the kids, not the one of the late 90s.

Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his ineffectiveness in the postseason. TK hit home runs both times he got the Twins' there. Gardy (with better teams; including one that had both the CY and MVP winners) was one and out often and early.

Rosterman
01-02-2013, 05:51 PM
TR has had a solid offseason. I'd say it was a very good offseason if he'd chosen to sign McCarthy instead of Correia. But that's my only quibble, really. They've got $20 million in the bank in case they surprise some people and remain in the hunt in July. If not, let the rebuilding continue with Willingham and possibly Morneau.

I don't think winning is TR's main goal this year. He wants to build for the future. In that context, the thing Gardy needs to do to keep his job is what has has not done in his managing career: Develop a young infield. Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his impatience with young players, especially infielders. Three of the four infield spots have been revolving doors since Guzy, Rivas and Koskie left. His intolerance of mistakes have scuttled the careers of several promising infield prospects. His patience will be tried this year. He won't have a job at the end of the year if he keeps the doors revolving at second, short and third.

Well, I don't think TR can sit back and NOT say that winning is everything. In this market now (with the Vikings), in this stage of the game (a new Target Field), and the supposed higher economics to work with to staff the team, winning is everything...if you want to put and keep butts in the seats.If the Twins hover around 2 million fans this season, it will speak loads about what Minnesota baseball fans think. I mean, I'm still disgusted with the whole marketing campaign when target Field opened that revolved around the Field, and not the team, in general.

People will readily agree that MOST of the team the Twins have parlayed their offseason into putting together a competitive team, watching what happens within the division. But this offseason, that has been all but thrown out the window (you can't spend more than $5 million on a pitcher when you need one or two or three and they are available?). We see the Royals improving and making a play...or at least upping their competition. We see Cleveland trying to stay in the game while rebuilding. We see the Twins telling us they want to be in the game, but clearly aren't.

It will be a long 2013. Gardy may wish he had taken his walking papers. But he had another year on his contract. And like Blackburn, the Twins will TRY and get another penny of work out of him before parting ways.

Kwak
01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
Ryan is staying even if the Twins lose 100+. Any new GM will have demands that will cause ownership to tremble--control, budget, his own staff and manager, etc. Ryan is the old shoe that conforms to your foot.

Shane Wahl
01-02-2013, 06:55 PM
I honestly do not think Gardenhire is going anywhere until the Twins in 2013 are as bad as they were in 2012.

ND-Fan
01-03-2013, 09:22 AM
Gardenhire sure has a challenge to get this team to be a winner. I doubt they have the horses to get it done like said above all the stars got to align and have a lot of luck. There is still possibility they add some talent before opening season. My thought Gm's and Managers are all held accountable for poor performance but why isn't ownership also held accountable by putting penalties on teams that under perform and finally where they have to sell the team to new ownership for clubs that continually loose shouldn't fans of MLB should see some accountability of ownership. They generally fans are partners with most teams because they are funding the new stadiums with taxes for ownership compete with other teams. If ownership of teams was such a poor investment why is it that they continually sell for more money than what they paid. Its just a thought that ownership should have some accountability for winning too and don't say the botttom line if that was case there are some teams that should have been bankrupt 10 years ago.

SweetOne69
01-03-2013, 01:17 PM
Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his ineffectiveness in the postseason. TK hit home runs both times he got the Twins' there. Gardy (with better teams; including one that had both the CY and MVP winners) was one and out often and early.

I'll add to this by saying that Gardy's main weakness is the inability to adapt to the urgency that is present in the postseason. He establishes roles for all of his players and that works for the long haul of the regular season. His ability to adjust from those established roles in the postseason has been his downfall (that and the players inability to perform in the postseason).

Jim Crikket
01-03-2013, 01:47 PM
So I guess it sounds like the Twins should just keep Gardy around a while. It certainly would appear that it's going to be some time before anyone has to be concerned about how well the team... and its manager... performs in the postseason.

Boom Boom
01-03-2013, 01:58 PM
I'll add to this by saying that Gardy's main weakness is the inability to adapt to the urgency that is present in the postseason. He establishes roles for all of his players and that works for the long haul of the regular season. His ability to adjust from those established roles in the postseason has been his downfall (that and the players inability to perform in the postseason).

I liked it when Gardy was respectful of Rondell White's needs to keep himself mentally in the game by giving him a defensive position while playing a defensive specialist at DH. In the playoffs even.

nokomismod
01-03-2013, 03:27 PM
I agree with some others here that there is some agreement behind the scenes between Gardy and TR. Otherwise Gardy would probably voice some sort of displeasure about having to coach for his life with what I think will be a worse all around team (worse offense, defense, but slightly better pitching) than the past two years.
TR is sly. Just like when he brought up Nishioka and everyone knew Nishi had no business with the big league club last summer. It was a way to get out of that 3rd year (perhaps something might have been brokered behind the scenes prior to Nishi being called up?).

cmathewson
01-03-2013, 10:30 PM
I don't think that anyone who watched TK towards the end would agree with this statement ;)
Agreed. TK of the late 80s was great with the kids, not the one of the late 90s.

Gardy's main weakness, relative to his predecessor, is his ineffectiveness in the postseason. TK hit home runs both times he got the Twins' there. Gardy (with better teams; including one that had both the CY and MVP winners) was one and out often and early.

Kelly had his issue with some players. Todd Walker comes to mind. There was the celebrated Rochester revolt. But several of those players who said they hated him became cores of the team Kelly built: Mientkievizc and Pierzinski in particular. TK built a complete team out of a bunch of young kids, most of them fringe players like Mint. TK had 21 rookies in 99. He let them play and, by the time he left, they were a contender. In contrast, Gardy rarely lets guys play through their slumps. He always plays the hot hand. So he's had a mix-and match, patchwork infield for the last eight years. He'll start benching Plouffe or Dozier at the first sign of trouble. Carroll will be an everyday player at three different positions, whichever one has the cold player. Meanwhile, none of those young guys will get into a rhythm. They'll struggle their way through the season on and off the bench. And, at the end of the year, we once again won't know what we have going into 2014 at three infield positions.

I hope I'm wrong. But that's Gardy's pattern, and it's not sustainable on a team that builds from within.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-03-2013, 11:08 PM
That.

The Twins were very charitable in bringing in Gardy back after 99 and 96 losses and kept his buddies as coaches (other than shuffling the deck). The changes after those 2 awful seasons in a row were very small and Gardy and Co were unscratched. (Like Stelly and Jerry were the 2 who needed to be thrown under the bus...)

I also thing that if the Twins are not respectable, Ryan will probably go away too... he is part of the mess as well.

Gardy will resign after the season and pick up another hobby (like TK did with horses)

DERRRRRPPPPPPPPPPP

Hey dude, what happened with the Baker signing again?

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-03-2013, 11:23 PM
So I guess it sounds like the Twins should just keep Gardy around a while. It certainly would appear that it's going to be some time before anyone has to be concerned about how well the team... and its manager... performs in the postseason.

Gardy's struggles in the postseason is a totally valid complaint no doubt, but I don't mind the patience shown with him. As someone who grew up as a Nebraska football fan, it should be noted that fans wanted Osborne out for YEARS due to a less then stellar bowl/national championship record. Luckily, the cool heads at the top realized it was more ****ty luck then bad coaching (see: the Twins playoff loses...bad match ups against the Yankees etc). How did it work out for Nebraska? Pretty well as I recall, as they won 3 out of 4 national titles and had the single most dominating team 1995 in college football history.

Now Gardy is far from perfect no doubt, but even with the past 2 rough years it should be noted that Gardy has led the Twins to the division title in 5 of the 10 years he has been manager (50% in a 5 team division is damn good!) Also, if Gardy was let go there would be multiple teams lining up to bring him in as a manager. I sorta equate this to a lesser extent of what happened to Andy Reid in Philly, dude was very successful for the Eagles, had a couple bad years then was let go. I'm willing to bet $100 that the next coach for the Eagles doesn't come close to doing what Reid did for the Eagles, and I am confident that unless the Twins bring in Maddon, Torre or some other amazing MLB manager whoever follows in Gardy doesn't come close to matching his 5 division titles in 10 years.

Yes its frustrating that we couldn't get past the Yankees (a terrible matchup) in the playoffs each and every year it seemed! But IMO you gotta give Gardy a couple more years to right the ship with the upcoming talent coming up through the org.

Kwak
01-03-2013, 11:29 PM
DERRRRRPPPPPPPPPPP

Hey dude, what happened with the Baker signing again?
Still with the bile?

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-03-2013, 11:41 PM
Still with the bile?

Bile? That ****ty post got exactly the response it deserved. I should have just ignored it altogether though.

CDog
01-04-2013, 09:06 AM
...In contrast, Gardy rarely lets guys play through their slumps. He always plays the hot hand. So he's had a mix-and match, patchwork infield for the last eight years. He'll start benching Plouffe or Dozier at the first sign of trouble. Carroll will be an everyday player at three different positions, whichever one has the cold player. Meanwhile, none of those young guys will get into a rhythm. They'll struggle their way through the season on and off the bench. And, at the end of the year, we once again won't know what we have going into 2014 at three infield positions.

I hope I'm wrong. But that's Gardy's pattern, and it's not sustainable on a team that builds from within.

You might want to check the Game Logs for Plouffe and Dozier from last year before you use them as examples of how Gardy benches young guys at the first sign of a struggle.

cmathewson
01-05-2013, 12:01 PM
You might want to check the Game Logs for Plouffe and Dozier from last year before you use them as examples of how Gardy benches young guys at the first sign of a struggle.

Plouffe spent most of the first two months on the bench. Dozier got sent down after playing average. Gardy had quotes in five interviews over three before the demotion saying he wanted to do it. That's pretty typical.

twinsnorth49
01-05-2013, 03:52 PM
Plouffe spent most of the first two months on the bench. Dozier got sent down after playing average. Gardy had quotes in five interviews over three before the demotion saying he wanted to do it. That's pretty typical.

Plouffe was on the bench because Gardy was still allowing Valencia to figure it out, another young player not benched at the first sign of trouble. Secondly, neither Dozier or Plouffe were benched at the first signs of trouble, Dozier struggled most of the time and was arguably given more rope than he should have been, for his own benefit. Plouffe went through a number of rough spots after his hot June and largely due to injury to be fair, but he was not benched because of struggling. I don't see how those two serve as good examples of what you're referring to.

CDog
01-07-2013, 11:36 AM
Plouffe spent most of the first two months on the bench. Dozier got sent down after playing average. Gardy had quotes in five interviews over three before the demotion saying he wanted to do it. That's pretty typical.

I don't think you know what average means.

Also, trying to prove a point that players are benched for struggling by saying they were benched BEFORE struggling doesn't really make sense.