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gunnarthor
12-23-2012, 09:24 AM
Indians To Sign Nick Swisher: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/indians-to-sign-nick-swisher.html)

4yr deal with a 5th year vesting option that could be worth as much as 70m over all five years.

This could be good news for the Twins if it leads a team like the Rangers to panic and trade for Willingham and/or Morneau.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-23-2012, 09:48 AM
I really don't see the Rangers getting a a point where they "panic" and overpay for a guy like Willingham: they still have Cruz and Murphy in the outfield. Martin could be close to ready as well. In addition if they feel Olt is ready, they could move Kinsler to the OF potentially as well.

In addition, its not like Willingham is the only OF available, they could probably land Kubel pretty cheaply as well.

Rosterman
12-23-2012, 10:07 AM
Yeah, and there is still Delmon Young waiting for the Big Contract now that Swisher signed. The interesting thing would be if Texas would consider trading the future for the present. But I agree that I would almost take Kubel over Willingham at the moment. Both play at about the same level. And Arizona will be more interested in shedding salary then getting a top flight prospect, I believe, as it gets down-to-the-wire on who we have to pay and play.

Swisher replaces both Sizemore and Hafner, both of whom contributed little in the immediate past to Cleveland, and both of whom are out there with the likes of Jim Thome and Johnny Damon looking for another chance. Be interesting to see where any of these guys end up.


Interesting how the pitching market seemed to dominate the Hot Stove League, and the big-name hitters came in a bit under their salary expectations (and years) compared to other seasons. With some middle infielders doing very well in that lackluster market.

Still some players in play...but how many 40-man roster spots actually still exist (yes, they can be easily made...Twins alone can shuffle the likes of Wood, Roienke, Butera, Hernandez, eve Benson if they desire).

Top Gun
12-23-2012, 10:18 AM
The cellar dewellar Twins will never catch the Injuns now.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 12:51 PM
Nick Swisher, face of the Cleveland Indians.

Riverbrian
12-23-2012, 01:38 PM
Never been a Swisher Fan... I think the change in home park may end up being a drop in production for him.

However... All in all... Choo for Bauer and Stubbs and now Swisher to replace Choo... Good off season for the Indians.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Never been a Swisher Fan... I think the change in home park may end up being a drop in production for him.

However... All in all... Choo for Bauer and Stubbs and now Swisher to replace Choo... Good off season for the Indians.
That largely depends on whether or not the Swisher contract turns into an albatross, unless you think they'll compete in 2013.

glunn
12-23-2012, 01:48 PM
The chances of the Twins ending up in last place for the third year in a row seem to be increasing.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 02:46 PM
The chances of the Twins ending up in last place for the third year in a row seem to be increasing.Right, but deals like these don't help the Indians long term chances and perhaps even hinder them, which, along with what KC had done this winter, makes me feel pretty good about our next competitive window around 2015. As hard as that may be to stomach now, the Twins aren't handcuffing their future what so ever.

greengoblinrulz
12-23-2012, 03:13 PM
MN is a 95 loss team but am not a huge Swisher fan...despite me bein a sbermetric guy.
Think Nick benefited from bein in a great lineup with huge protection & not having star expectations.
His 21-130 playoff BAve (.161/.263/.307 in 36 Yankee playoff gms----16-106 for .151/.262/.231/ not including MNs 6 gms!) shows how he will melt under the pressure he'll get in Clev if they ever get good.

Top Gun
12-23-2012, 04:11 PM
Handcuff how do you figure that? He is only 32 and in the prime of life. Get real and don't be jealous of a team that spends a little money, he will be great.

glunn
12-23-2012, 04:12 PM
Right, but deals like these don't help the Indians long term chances and perhaps even hinder them, which, along with what KC had done this winter, makes me feel pretty good about our next competitive window around 2015. As hard as that may be to stomach now, the Twins aren't handcuffing their future what so ever.

Good point. And if the Twins can lose 100 games next year, then maybe they can draft Appel and get him ready by 2015.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 04:35 PM
Handcuff how do you figure that? He is only 32 and in the prime of life. Get real and don't be jealous of a team that spends a little money, he will be great.I can tell you're a thinking man.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 04:37 PM
Good point. And if the Twins can lose 100 games next year, then maybe they can draft Appel and get him ready by 2015.Look, I'm a proponent of competing in 2013/14 if it doesn't restrict better moves in the future. Would you have been willing to trade Willingham and sign Swisher to this deal, for instance? I sure wouldn't.

Top Gun
12-23-2012, 04:44 PM
3 SS Asdrubal Cabrera (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2010/02/asdrubal-cabrera-ss-cleveland-indians.html)**
4 RF Nick Swisher (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/12/nick-swisher-of-new-york-yankees-33.html)**
5 C Carlos Santana (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/06/carlos-santana-c-cleveland-indians.html)**
3-4-5 all are switch hitters and what is not to like. What do you think a #4 hitters worth?
The Twins future will never come, it's only for dreamers, lose another 300 games and see where you are at.

Kwak
12-23-2012, 04:48 PM
Good point. And if the Twins can lose 100 games next year, then maybe they can draft Appel and get him ready by 2015.
Most likely Appel will be drafted this summer--the Twins have the 4th selection. The Twins won't jeopardize losing a draft choice the following year by overrunning the "slot budget"--which would require that Appel would sign for #4 slot money. He must still be available for the Twins to draft with that 4th selection--unlikely.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 05:45 PM
3 SS Asdrubal Cabrera (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2010/02/asdrubal-cabrera-ss-cleveland-indians.html)**
4 RF Nick Swisher (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/12/nick-swisher-of-new-york-yankees-33.html)**
5 C Carlos Santana (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/06/carlos-santana-c-cleveland-indians.html)**
3-4-5 all are switch hitters and what is not to like. What do you think a #4 hitters worth?
The Twins future will never come, it's only for dreamers, lose another 300 games and see where you are at.Wow. I'd pay like a bizzilion dollars for that middle of the order!

Thrylos
12-23-2012, 05:55 PM
Never been a Swisher Fan... I think the change in home park may end up being a drop in production for him.


I disliked Swisher when he was playing for the Sux and disliked him even more after what he did to Nishioka a couple seasons ago. Hope that at least one Twins' pitcher has it in him to pay him back, and with him in the division now, there will be chances.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-23-2012, 07:24 PM
I disliked Swisher when he was playing for the Sux and disliked him even more after what he did to Nishioka a couple seasons ago. Hope that at least one Twins' pitcher has it in him to pay him back, and with him in the division now, there will be chances.

What? Its fine to dislike him for his antics, but to dislike him for the Nishioka play is absurd.

The Nishioka play was a common and clean play, it's not his fault we literally had one of the worst 10 players of all time playing SS for us that game.

Also, that play actually benefited us, it took out an absolutely terrible SS/2B and forced us to replace him with a less terrible SS/2B. And then Nishioka ended up saving us some decent cash anyways!


Swisher has a 4.1, 3.8 and 3.9 WAR's the past three years. He is a good player and actually seems like a good clubhouse guy as well. (think Remond but with talent!)


Also when is the Baker signing press conference? I'd like to know the date and time so I can view it live on the web!

drjim
12-23-2012, 07:27 PM
Cleveland is NOT giving up 4th place without a fight. I don't like this move, they really aren't that close, should be dumping almost all their resources into pitching, and the contract will be over by the time they are competitive.

kab21
12-23-2012, 08:03 PM
Look, I'm a proponent of competing in 2013/14 if it doesn't restrict better moves in the future. Would you have been willing to trade Willingham and sign Swisher to this deal, for instance? I sure wouldn't.

I would be 100% for trading Willingham for a very good pitching prospect and signing Swisher. It's not a great contract but he seems like a guy that will age relatively well and I think the contract will hurt less than many of the pitchers that some wanted the Twins to sign.

PseudoSABR
12-23-2012, 09:10 PM
I would be 100% for trading Willingham for a very good pitching prospect and signing Swisher. It's not a great contract but he seems like a guy that will age relatively well and I think the contract will hurt less than many of the pitchers that some wanted the Twins to sign.I don't think Willingham would net what Cleveland got, so that's why I didn't put it that way. I'm all for moving Willingham for a good piece, but I don't want to reinvest the saved money in Swisher on the whisps of competitiveness. And I bet you really wouldn't do that either...

Top Gun
12-23-2012, 09:40 PM
Cleveland got the best pitcher in the central, Trevor Bauer ever heard of him? what does the Twins got? Oh ya Correia.

Riverbrian
12-23-2012, 10:09 PM
That largely depends on whether or not the Swisher contract turns into an albatross, unless you think they'll compete in 2013.Its just me... Sometimes you just run across a player that you don't think much of at some point and you can't shake the feeling no matter how well he does after... That's kinda Swisher for me. He had some bad years and I kinda labeled him and haven't taken him seriously since. That's my problem... Not his... Hes been pretty consistent the past few years but i still try to rationalize his numbers with the short porch at Yankee stadium and things like that but his splits dont suggest that it's fair of me to do that.

Can Cleveland compete this year? Oddly enough... I think the Twins have more depth on the mound as of right now. In 2012... Cleveland was just as bad as we were and that means they were awful on the mound... Bauer was a fantastic get for them but if Ubaldo doesn't get it together... Masterson, McAllister and Bauer won't be enough... They have nothing after that right now... Someone will get hurt... Ubaldo could suck... Bauer might get knocked around his first full year... They need depth and they don't have any...

The offense has a couple of holes but it has potential if Chisenhall and Kipnis start playing to potential... But it won't be enough to over come the Pitching in my estimation. They will be stronger if they can move Asdrubal for a decent pitcher or two and they just might do that. They do have Aviles to take his place and Lindor a couple years away in the shadows.

Right now I'd say they will finish last in the Central and I will say 3rd or 4th if they trade Cabrera for Two decent arms.... One arm won't get the job done.

edavis0308
12-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Cleveland got the best pitcher in the central, Trevor Bauer ever heard of him? what does the Twins got? Oh ya Correia.

He is way better than that Jason Verlander guy.

Top Gun
12-23-2012, 10:41 PM
Verly is great! He got 2yrs left at 20M, then let the bidding start. Although he didn't pitch that great in the playoffs.

old nurse
12-23-2012, 11:28 PM
Totally missed sarcasm

beckmt
12-23-2012, 11:36 PM
If Bauer was that good Arizona would not have traded him. Twins may finish last this year, White Sox may be close, but they are headed in the right direction. Amass arms that may function at a major league, and hope enough of the starters can pitch well.

johnnydakota
12-23-2012, 11:41 PM
Right, but deals like these don't help the Indians long term chances and perhaps even hinder them, which, along with what KC had done this winter, makes me feel pretty good about our next competitive window around 2015. As hard as that may be to stomach now, the Twins aren't handcuffing their future what so ever.

Yes nothing like finishing dead last 3 or 4 years in a row to get players begging to come to minnesota

johnnydakota
12-23-2012, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE=Kwak;73297]Most likely Appel will be drafted this summer--the Twins have the 4th selection. The Twins won't jeopardize losing a draft choice the following year by overrunning the "slot budget"--which would require that Appel would sign for #4 slot money. He must still be available for the Twins to draft with that 4th selection--unlikely.[
The C.B.A. doesnt penalize you for over running a slot , its combine 10 rounds of bonuses,
Isnt Appel a senior ? is he going to go to an independant leaque?, or accept the 6 million bonus?
as where he goes in the draft, his season will have a lot to do with that , he may fall out of the 1st round completly

johnnydakota
12-23-2012, 11:52 PM
If Bauer was that good Arizona would not have traded him. Twins may finish last this year, White Sox may be close, but they are headed in the right direction. Amass arms that may function at a major league, and hope enough of the starters can pitch well.

I think it has more to do attitude then his skill , he would fit right in with A.J. me thinks or the lilly white Twins

Top Gun
12-24-2012, 12:18 AM
You can only live on hope tell the season begins, then the truth sets in!

ThePuck
12-26-2012, 08:22 AM
What? Its fine to dislike him for his antics, but to dislike him for the Nishioka play is absurd.

The Nishioka play was a common and clean play, it's not his fault we literally had one of the worst 10 players of all time playing SS for us that game.

Also, that play actually benefited us, it took out an absolutely terrible SS/2B and forced us to replace him with a less terrible SS/2B. And then Nishioka ended up saving us some decent cash anyways!


Swisher has a 4.1, 3.8 and 3.9 WAR's the past three years. He is a good player and actually seems like a good clubhouse guy as well. (think Remond but with talent!)


Also when is the Baker signing press conference? I'd like to know the date and time so I can view it live on the web!

Nishioka wasn't playing shortstop when that happened...Casilla was. Nishioka was playing 2B. Nishioka wasn't brought in to play SS, he was brought in to play 2B cause Gardy wanted Casilla at shortstop and they didn't like Nishi's arm for shortstop. This was said in December, but after enough questions were asked, they had to go through the circus of their ST battles to 'see where each one would play'. Shockingly, they decided on what they had said right when they got Nishi. I know, right? A sham ST battle in Twins territory. Who knew?

However, as things go on this team, they switched Nishi over to shortstop when he came back off the injury...in part because Gardy's answer for shortstop, Casilla, was a horrible shortstop, so he went back to where he plays best, 2B...and it left us with Nishi at SS. If they had left Casilla at shortstop and Nishi at 2B, we would have been horrible defensively at both spots. With Casilla at 2B and Nishi at shortstop, we were only horrible at one. Unfortunately, it was the more important one...

nicksaviking
12-26-2012, 09:37 AM
The Swisher signing didn't make a lot of sense to me. He seems due for a decline, it's just his agent was angling for a big deal long before he hit the market. He was basically playing in his prime years in NY surrounded by all kinds of bats able to protect him and hitting in a very offensively friendly park, yet his numbers were about the same as they were his last two years in Oakland. I would have thought his numbers would have improved during that time, just as they did for Granderson.

Now he's heading into the declining stage of his carrer in a less offensively friendly park with less offensive help. If he falters, he likely falters big time. If that OBP starts dropping that's all she wrote, all of his offensive powers stem from being able to get on base.

That being said, his contract shouldn't be an albatross for the Indians, anymore than Mauer's for the Twins. The Indians aren't going to be paying too many guys in the coming years, they'll be relying on the cheap talent at the farm so they can afford to take a high priced gamble more so now, than say in six years when those guys will hit arbitration/free agency.

PseudoSABR
12-26-2012, 12:48 PM
That being said, his contract shouldn't be an albatross for the Indians, anymore than Mauer's for the Twins. The Indians aren't going to be paying too many guys in the coming years, they'll be relying on the cheap talent at the farm so they can afford to take a high priced gamble more so now, than say in six years when those guys will hit arbitration/free agency.I agree with your take save this passage. There's likely to be another, younger Swisher-like player when (if) the Indians are actually competitive. In two, three years, I'm sure the Indians will wish they had that 16 million a year to put elsewhere.

diehardtwinsfan
12-26-2012, 01:26 PM
I don't see Texas overpaying right now... I do see them willing to shell out something nice at the deadline if they are in a race and are missing that power bat. Olt could make this whole conversation moot...as could a Cruz rebound, which is hardly unrealistic...

Brock Beauchamp
12-27-2012, 08:34 AM
Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

ThePuck
12-27-2012, 08:51 AM
Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

Assuming the prospects work out or aren't stifled in the minors, you could very well be right

Brock Beauchamp
12-27-2012, 09:09 AM
Assuming the prospects work out or aren't stifled in the minors, you could very well be right

Contrary to popular opinion around here, there is no evidence that the Twins stifle their minor league players. Do they keep them in the minors for a long time? Yeah, particularly the hitters. But over the past 10-12 years, the Twins have produced a lot of quality hitters. You'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that the team is stifling their hitters when they've churned out the likes of Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Span and now it appears as if they may have salvaged what looked like some pretty bad drafts with Plouffe and Parmelee while Hicks, Arcia, Sano, etc. are waiting in the wings.

As for pitching, well... The Twins just haven't done a good job of finding talented arms in the past 5-7 years. Hard to find much in the way of MLB quality arms when you draft like crap and then run into more than your fair share of awful luck.

Seth Stohs
12-27-2012, 09:25 AM
I've always liked Swisher. I enjoy charismatic players. He generally isn't a disrespectful player. His slide on Nishioka was not at all wrong. He is a terrific player. He takes tremendous at bats, takes a lot of pitchers, walks and he has home run power. He's a solid RF and a decent 1B. Would I have given him that contract? Probably not, but it's a nice signing. And, the Ohio State alum goes back to the state to play.

USAFChief
12-27-2012, 09:59 AM
Yay, Swisher. Maybe that will offset the fact that the Indians have a bottom 10 farm system (as do the Tigers and White Sox). As much as I bitch about the Twins' free agent acquisitions (or lack thereof), I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

The only team in the Central positioned better for the future is the Royals and I think Moore blew it by trading for Shields this offseason.

trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.

Brock Beauchamp
12-27-2012, 10:13 AM
trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.

Detroit can spend their way out of a bad farm system (to an extent, anyway). But have you looked at Cleveland or Chicago's farm systems? They're awful, especially Chicago. Mid-market teams can't succeed with a complete dearth of minor league help. Chicago and Cleveland have a ceiling of mediocrity and a floor of terrible over the next several years. Their Major League rosters are meh and there is virtually zero help on the way in the minors. At least the Twins and Royals have promise. Detroit is kind of playing their own game since their owner will do whatever it takes to win a championship before he dies. And once he punches his card, it's highly unlikely the team will continue to overspend the way it has in recent years (and he could die tomorrow for all we know).

Give me Sano, Rosario, Arcia, Gibson, Meyer, May, Hicks, etc. over any other farm in the division, excepting the Royals.

PseudoSABR
12-27-2012, 04:10 PM
trying to project years into the future in baseball is fun, but pretty much impossible. Just my opinion, but I would almost always trade the future for the present in baseball. I would trade places with Detroit in a heartbeat, KC as well. And off the top of my head I would most likely swap with the Chisox as well. Cleveland I'd have to look at more closely, but whatever the difference between farm systems, the chances of the Twins minor league system turning out a championship team in a couple years aren't significantly different than any other team's system.As logical as your point might seem, the Twins have always won doing the exactly opposite approach. The cores of their winning teams have always been home grown or players acquired as prospects. Typically the present is overpriced in terms of what it cost in future value. How many years of serviceable players did KC trade for two years each of Davis and Shields? That approach doesn't make sense to me, and as a fan, I hope for the Twins as well. It's not really about projecting what happens in the future, it's about getting numbers of controllable players who you believe have talent. The more of those players you have arriving at the same time the better it is for your team--the rest, as you suggest, is left unpredicatable.

When the Twins have a better core, I'm all for overpaying for the present, but that's not this year and probably not next year either. Gulp.

70charger
12-27-2012, 04:24 PM
^ +1

Riverbrian
12-27-2012, 04:33 PM
Trading the future for the present doesn't always work and trading the present for the future doesn't always work...

However... Competing with a weak farm system will be damn expensive and very inconsistent... Because when you fail... You fail and spend big money for the failure.

The only way to field a competitive club every year or most years is to build a strong farm system and that is how trading your future for the present will kill ya.

kab21
12-27-2012, 08:02 PM
While I agree with what the Twins are doing long term it should be pointed out that the White Sox have consistently had one of the lowest ranked farm systems in baseball. I've expected this crash for a long time and yet they have continued to be competitive and have even turned out a few homegrown players during that time. The Tigers have also had weak farm systems for a long time and they haven't crashed either but they have had a stronger MLB core.

Brock Beauchamp
12-27-2012, 08:07 PM
While I agree with what the Twins are doing long term it should be pointed out that the White Sox have consistently had one of the lowest ranked farm systems in baseball. I've expected this crash for a long time and yet they have continued to be competitive and have even turned out a few homegrown players during that time. The Tigers have also had weak farm systems for a long time and they haven't crashed either but they have had a stronger MLB core.

Detroit's recent success was built on the back of historically awful seasons (and the resulting draft picks) from the early 2000s. To sustain that success, they've been spending money like drunken Democrats. Either way, the base of their success was internal, though it was heavily supplemented by cold, hard cash.

As for Chicago, they haven't made the playoffs since 2008 and haven't done much since 2005 when their team was... you guessed it, largely built from within.

Mid-market teams just don't win without help from the farm. The best you can hope for is consistent mediocrity.

kab21
12-27-2012, 08:32 PM
The point wasn't that Chicago has been great but rather that they haven't crashed (like the Twins) despite having awful farm systems. We've been expecting them to crash for as long as I remember. We've also been expecting the Tigers to crash for several years now and we're still waiting. Other than Verlander the Tigers didn't hit on any early picks in the 2000's so that's not why they were good.

Brock Beauchamp
12-27-2012, 10:25 PM
The point wasn't that Chicago has been great but rather that they haven't crashed (like the Twins) despite having awful farm systems. We've been expecting them to crash for as long as I remember. We've also been expecting the Tigers to crash for several years now and we're still waiting. Other than Verlander the Tigers didn't hit on any early picks in the 2000's so that's not why they were good.

But they flipped a bunch of prospects for Miggy and restocked by trading guys like Granderson, drafted during their awful stretch. It all stemmed from those early to mid 2000s picks. Then they spent a **** ton of money to supplement those players.

I keep expecting the Sox to implode but Williams manages to assemble a mediocre team every year. Of course, they also haven't won 90 games in over five years and have only made the playoffs once.

kab21
12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
But they flipped a bunch of prospects for Miggy and restocked by trading guys like Granderson, drafted during their awful stretch. It all stemmed from those early to mid 2000s picks. Then they spent a **** ton of money to supplement those players.

I keep expecting the Sox to implode but Williams manages to assemble a mediocre team every year. Of course, they also haven't won 90 games in over five years and have only made the playoffs once.

I think you need to review all of those high picks that they were drafting when they were terrible. Pretty much the only high pick that turned out was Verlander and they were able to trade two others for the right to give MCab a Johan type extension.

I also strongly dislike everything the Sox have done building their but they haven't collapsed and despite having horrible farm systems for years they have produced some good players.

Brock Beauchamp
12-28-2012, 10:24 AM
I think you need to review all of those high picks that they were drafting when they were terrible. Pretty much the only high pick that turned out was Verlander and they were able to trade two others for the right to give MCab a Johan type extension.

My point isn't that they drafted well with those high picks, it's that their resurgence was borne from internal players, not external signings. After that point, it was supplemented with money but to start off, they did it from the farm.

kab21
12-28-2012, 11:29 AM
Actually your point and others in this thread was that the Tigers were going to get bad fast. We've been expecting that for several years and they are still very good. It's not going to happen as fast as you think unless they lose Verlander and MCab in back to back offseasons but that would kill most teams. I countered with the discussions from the last 5 years that we've been having about the White Sox inevitable collapse and they've managed to win 88 and 89 games in recent seasons (conveniently below your 90 win mark).


I wouldn't trade places with either the White Sox or Indians and you'd have to make a convincing argument to trade places with Detroit, a team that is going to be good for another year or two and then will get real bad, real fast.

While I agree about the White Sox and Indians I would certainly trade places with Detroit.

Brock Beauchamp
12-28-2012, 01:24 PM
Actually your point and others in this thread was that the Tigers were going to get bad fast. We've been expecting that for several years and they are still very good. It's not going to happen as fast as you think unless they lose Verlander and MCab in back to back offseasons but that would kill most teams. I countered with the discussions from the last 5 years that we've been having about the White Sox inevitable collapse and they've managed to win 88 and 89 games in recent seasons (conveniently below your 90 win mark).

While I agree about the White Sox and Indians I would certainly trade places with Detroit.

The Tigers haven't gotten bad yet because they continue to raise their payroll well beyond what anyone would have considered reasonable. There's only so far they can go with that, though. Sooner or later, that bubble is going to burst. Even the Yankees can't spend their way out of player development and their payroll ceiling is considerably higher than Detroit's. And when the bubble does burst, it will hit them hard because they've signed several guys to astronomical contracts that won't age well.

As for the White Sox, they've been pretty mediocre in a bad division. 88 and 89 wins in six years (only one of which turned into a playoff berth after a required game 163) isn't going to impress me much. Williams has done a pretty good job with an awful farm system (that he continues to plunder at every opportunity) but sooner or later, his luck will run out. It's merely surprising that it hasn't already and that the Sox continue to keep their heads above water.