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whatever54
12-21-2012, 10:03 AM
MLB rumors says Harden is signed, so we'll see what he can contribute.

TopGunn#22
12-21-2012, 10:09 AM
Great signing. We should all say the rosary every day in hopes of keeping him healthy.

Top Gun
12-21-2012, 10:20 AM
Twins signed RHP Rich Harden to a minor league contract.

He's been given an invitation to spring training. Harden missed the entire 2012 season following surgery to repair a torn capsule in his right shoulder, but he's reportedly healthy now and trying for a comeback. The 31-year-old hasn't had any success since 2009 and has, of course, had major problems with staying healthy, but it doesn't hurt to see what he might have left.

Top Gun
12-21-2012, 10:21 AM
Scott Diamond recently underwent surgery to remove a bone chip from his left elbow.

Parker Hageman
12-21-2012, 10:37 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1266-Twins-Ink-Rich-Harden-to-Minor-League-Deal

Kwak
12-21-2012, 10:38 AM
Apparently Ryan is looking under every rock to see if there is an effective major league pitcher underneath.

Brock Beauchamp
12-21-2012, 10:41 AM
Apparently Ryan is looking under every rock to see if there is a pitcher underneath.

Fixed.

minn55441
12-21-2012, 10:51 AM
I like this signing a lot. I would like him to get 4 more of these guys. Talent, motivated to prove themselves, no long term financial committment. what's not to like? If he gets three or four of these type of comeback attempts, perhaps one will pay dividends, but you never win the lottery without buying a ticket.

mike wants wins
12-21-2012, 10:55 AM
What's not to like is that this is the strategy, instead of signing one legit pitcher. Hope is a bad strategy.

PopRiveter
12-21-2012, 11:01 AM
I love this one! sure hope he lasts more than 20 pitches. On a minor league contract, any production is all bonus and this guy, if healthy enough to pitch, is better than most any other option in the system. That's a HUGE "if," but it's low risk/high reward.
Go Harden!

nicksaviking
12-21-2012, 11:03 AM
What's not to like is that this is the strategy, instead of signing one legit pitcher. Hope is a bad strategy.

While I normally agree, this only registers because he was once a big name. It's a minor league signing, no different than the signing and invitations made to Deduno, Walters and Vasquez. He's not even taking a 40-man roster spot, which means this should probably register lower on the off season radar than the Josh Roenicke and Tim Wood signings.

mike wants wins
12-21-2012, 11:06 AM
In a vacuum, it is not a bad signing. As a collection, buying only bad players or injured players, and hoping they somehow become something they are not, is a bad strategy.

I could care not care less about this signing, it is the overall strategy that this indicates and fits within that I care about.

Shane Wahl
12-21-2012, 11:21 AM
Obviously this is good and I wish they would have targeted Harden and others like him to minor league deals and not messed around with Correia and Pelfrey.

chagen
12-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Kind of reminds me of the Joel Zumaya experiment i guy that got good stuff but just can't stay healthy hopefully this one works out!

johnnydakota
12-21-2012, 11:26 AM
What's not to like is that this is the strategy, instead of signing one legit pitcher. Hope is a bad strategy.

I would rather have 5 of these kind of guys then 1 Correia

Top Gun
12-21-2012, 11:27 AM
The Twins need to do more than sign minor league contracts. That just proves how dirt cheap Ryan is. He is a dirt bag!

Boom Boom
12-21-2012, 11:28 AM
He should probably just start the Twins' famous "Rest N Rehab" program immediately.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 11:33 AM
I like this signing. Now its time to sign Brandon Webb and see what he has left in the tank. In all honesty we know 2013 is a lost cause, but while we give these reclamation projects a shot the guys in the minors will be developing for the future and if one of them actually gets back to his almost former self...then its a win win!

andrewberg
12-21-2012, 11:36 AM
The love for guys with a .0001% chance of a big payoff here shows me why casinos have so many more slot machines than poker tables.

johnnydakota
12-21-2012, 11:38 AM
I like this signing. Now its time to sign Brandon Webb and see what he has left in the tank. In all honesty we know 2013 is a lost cause, but while we give these reclamation projects a shot the guys in the minors will be developing for the future and if one of them actually gets back to his almost former self...then its a win win!

Do not forget Scott Kazmir

Willihammer
12-21-2012, 11:41 AM
It is a fine signing and I like the tactic but hopefully Harden's not the last. Certainly you improve your odds by pursuing these sorts with a little more gusto than Jr has to this point. You only need one guy to pan out to make them all worthwhile.

stringer bell
12-21-2012, 11:47 AM
IIRC, the Twins claimed Harden when he was a Cub, but the Cubs pulled him off waivers.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 11:51 AM
Do not forget Scott Kazmir

I think your being sarcastic. But what would be wrong with seeing what Kazmir has left?

nicksaviking
12-21-2012, 11:53 AM
The love for guys with a .0001% chance of a big payoff here shows me why casinos have so many more slot machines than poker tables.

I think you need to hire a better odds maker. His 82 inning 2011 still produced a better WAR than all but two Twins starters last year. It's still better odds than trying to come out ahead playing the ATM machine which is what the Correia signing was.

Besides, why is anyone giving this deal any more pessimism than the minor league deals given to Vasquez, Walters and Deduno?

Riverbrian
12-21-2012, 11:58 AM
Why Not? Bring in Arms... even if it's an Arm that falls off every once in awhile. It may not be the Mid Level guy that most of us want but there is no guarentee that the Mid-level guy doesn't go down with injury during the season either and our SP needs go way beyond one guy.

TR is fixing one thing from last year. We have people to turn to if the wheels fall off of someone during the season... Either through injury or pitching terribly. Hopefully we can avoid the 6 plus ERA guy for long stretches in 2013 because we don't have anyone else to replace him.

We can't go through 2012 again. Hopefully this works a little.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 12:04 PM
Why Not? Bring in Arms... even if it's an Arm that falls off every once in awhile. It may not be the Mid Level guy that most of us want but there is no guarentee that the Mid-level guy doesn't go down with injury during the season either and our SP needs go way beyond one guy.

TR is fixing one thing from last year. We have people to turn to if the wheels fall off of someone during the season... Either through injury or pitching terribly. Hopefully we can avoid the 6 plus ERA guy for long stretches in 2013 because we don't have anyone else to replace him.

We can't go through 2012 again. Hopefully this works a little.

This is a call to arms, gather pitchers...time to go play ball. 30 Seconds to Mars reference if anyone was wondering.

70charger
12-21-2012, 12:07 PM
I love the low-risk, high-reward thing. On a minor league contract, this guy is basically cost-free.

Riverbrian
12-21-2012, 12:07 PM
This is a call to arms, gather pitchers...time to go play ball. 30 Seconds to Mars reference if anyone was wondering.

This is a battle song Brothers and Sisters!!! Did you ever believe? Were you ever a dreamer?

USAFChief
12-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Not too many years ago, I would have thought this was a good idea.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 12:19 PM
This is a battle song Brothers and Sisters!!! Did you ever believe? Were you ever a dreamer?

It's the moment of truth, and the moment to lie,
The moment to live and the moment to die,
The moment to fight, the moment to fight
To fight, to fight, to fight!

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 12:20 PM
Not too many years ago, I would have thought this was a good idea.

It is a good idea. What risk is a minor league contract? None! So stop complaining.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
12-21-2012, 12:24 PM
Let me just say I am EXTREMELY pleased with this signing. Harden was one of the players I wanted in my original plan and to get him on a minor league deal is gold. Strikeout artist with a great ceiling. Low risk, very high reward. Possible #2, but he hasn't done much in the last 3-4 years. I really love everything Terry Ryan has done except for the Correia signing. Which, by the way, looks more and more questionable after every new pitching acquisition. 5 spots and he (Kevin) might prove to be inferior to all these guys: Diamond, Hendriks, Harden, Pelfrey, Gibson, Worley, Hernandez, Hermsen, and Deduno. Maybe not the last 3, maybe yes. We'll have to see.

minn55441
12-21-2012, 12:24 PM
What's not to like is that this is the strategy, instead of signing one legit pitcher. Hope is a bad strategy.


I understand your point, but I would rather TR sign a bunch of "give me a shot at my former glory" guys for 2013, than a bunch of mid-level starters to 4 and 5 year deals. If given the choice at this point of having Marcum, E. Jackson and Blanton all signed and in the fold on 4 to 5 year deals, I would much rather be where we are at now. We won't be able to even see the division lead after the all-star break, so why jeopardize our future on long term deals just to put a competitive team on the field for 2013?

Our defense and offense won't be much better than our starting pitching in 2013, however we have a chance to put together a real nice team in all phases of the game in 2014 and beyond as long as we don't sign any stupid contracts now, that would extend into those seasons. Sure, Blanton, Marcum and Jackson would look a lot better on the field in 2013 than what we will end up seeing. However if you sign those guys through 2016 and 2017, we have destroyed our future. Do you really want those guys to be the core of your rotation in 2016? Let the Myers, Mays, Berrios, Diamonds progress and I'm sure we will have more options for starting pitching FA after the 2015 and 2016 seasons. We will be looking at one, maybe two guys at that point to really solidify our pitching staff. In my mind that will be money well spent.

I may be wrong, if Blanton, Marcum and Jackson are vying for the Cy Young award in 2016, I will admit you were right, I was wrong. I strongly believe that locking up league average starting pitchers long term as they head into the downside of their careers is the wrong approach.

StormJH1
12-21-2012, 12:34 PM
This is a good signing. Minor league deal has very little risk attached to it. But I think he needs to become a reliever like Kerry Wood did. This guy was never really more than a 6 inning guy when "healthy", let alone now. But he has ALWAYS struck guys out. I'd rather have that kind of upside than the Correia/Pelfrey type, which is "Gee, this guy throws batting practice and seems like he should be getting torched, but his ERA is surprisingly good!"

ashburyjohn
12-21-2012, 12:55 PM
I strongly believe that locking up league average starting pitchers long term as they head into the downside of their careers is the wrong approach.

I agree with what you're saying, but it leaves out the crucial point that I think Terry Ryan is considering and with which I also agree. When you sign a guy to a multi-year contract, you are taking on a fair degree of risk. Now, one may look at a particular stud pitcher and guess that there is no risk based on his track record, but I don't think the record bears that out - in a previous post I took a look at the league's best starters 5 years ago and the 2012 record for those pitchers was pretty bad if you had paid big money that included this year in the contract.

Now, sometimes, it makes sense to take on that risk. But to do it now, means you are taking the risk of a Marcum or Jackson being bad in the last year of his contract, in exchange for ... what? A more competitive 2013? It's a bad bargain.

Two years from now, when the team is really ready to compete, there will be the equivalents of Marcum and Jackson available. At that point, you might take on future risk in exchange for solidifying something for the 2015 team. You really are getting something of value in exchange for the risk.

There's nothing so unique about the talent available for signing today that says you need to pull the trigger on it. I guess I'm belaboring the point, but so many posters seem puzzled by what Terry Ryan is doing this off-season. It doesn't seem puzzling to me at all.

Fire Dan Gladden
12-21-2012, 12:59 PM
The Twins need to do more than sign minor league contracts. That just proves how dirt cheap Ryan is. He is a dirt bag!

Well, I don't know how anybody can complain about this signing. There is only upside. If he looks bad in ST, he gets cut.

I also don't believe Terry Ryan is a dirt bag. I live near farms, and Terry Ryan doesn't look like any bag of dirt I have seen. He actually looks more like a person than a bag. I mean bags don't have arms or legs or a face for that matter. If he is dirt, it has to be the whitest dirt I have ever seen. Most dirt around here is brown or black. You may want to look at pictures of bags of dirt and pictures of Terry Ryan, you might get a better idea of the differences.

Top Gun
12-21-2012, 01:10 PM
You guys are so full of it!

Kwak
12-21-2012, 01:12 PM
"Signing league average pitchers long-term..."--All agree Correia isn't much, but two years 'isn't long-term'. These one-year deals--they do show a commitment to put a decent team on the field in 2013--and that was part of the agreement between taxpayer and ownership. A 75 win team is more entertaining than last season's 66 win team. It wasn't just the 96 losses--but that all too many of these "losses" came in the first three innings with the rest of the game just "mop-up". I believe Twins fans deserve better--and that the team can be rebuilt into a consistent winner while still putting an entertaining team on the field during the years needed to rebuild.

mike wants wins
12-21-2012, 01:42 PM
So punt on 2013 and 2014, minn55441? That's your strategy?

People keep talking about "risk" and signing guys that have actually succeeded in the majors, but somehow are ignoring the risk that these prospects might not work out. And, since it "does not make sense to sign any legit FA unless your team is close", what happens in the next two years if some of the prospects don't work?

mike wants wins
12-21-2012, 01:43 PM
A 75 win team is not sufficiently more entertaining than a 66 win team to put butts in seats, imo.

glunn
12-21-2012, 02:08 PM
Good article. I wonder how much they are paying him.

70charger
12-21-2012, 02:56 PM
The love for guys with a .0001% chance of a big payoff here shows me why casinos have so many more slot machines than poker tables.

Your analogy is off because you seem to be missing the asymmetry.

If I'm betting $1, I will take 10-1 odds when the payoff is $10 before I'll take 2-1 odds when the payoff is $1. One is more likely, but the other is far preferable.

SweetOne69
12-21-2012, 02:56 PM
Good article. I wonder how much they are paying him.

It's a minor league deal so he will get paid the same as the rest of the minor leaguers (around $50k).

Danchat
12-21-2012, 03:24 PM
Not too many years ago, I would have thought this was a good idea.

That was before you went senile?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-21-2012, 04:22 PM
That was before you went senile?

Haha BOOM!

twins4121
12-21-2012, 05:38 PM
$52,000? i'd say this is amazing. I do think though that this means we have very little faith of him coming back and staying healthy... Either we hope to get 6-8 solid starts before he goes down, or put him in the pen and milk him springily.

Kwak
12-21-2012, 06:30 PM
$52,000? i'd say this is amazing. I do think though that this means we have very little faith of him coming back and staying healthy... Either we hope to get 6-8 solid starts before he goes down, or put him in the pen and milk him springily.


No, the real purpose is show that the FO is "not satisfied" with what they have and will continue to add limited risk (limited reward also) to show the fan base that "they're trying". Yes, this is a CYA manuever.

Let Mike bitch about 75 wins are not enough--but this team needs so much help to get to 81, much less 97 (60%), that to think it could be done in one year is total fantasy. To consider Marcum (or any other SP on the FA market) is total BS.
This team won't get turned around until the minor leaguers mature--and are the real deal! I think if half of the "top ten prospects" amount to quality major leaguers there would be cause for a major celebration.

beckmt
12-21-2012, 06:35 PM
The two year deal is the only one that bothered me. If May and Meyer are not ready by 2014 second half or one of the other Twin minor leaguers we are in deep trouble with a total pitching staff rebuild needed again

diehardtwinsfan
12-21-2012, 08:46 PM
Let's accept this move for what it is... a low risk move (50k) with a high reward, but the odds of it panning out are likely less than 10%. I doubt at this point that Ryan expects the Twins to contend, and to be honest, even if Harden is a gold mine, they still would be a fringe contender at best. The flip side is that if he is money this spring, he gets flipped for something decent at the deadline. Pitching is always in demand at the trade deadline, and a healthy Harden should fetch a nice price.

I don't get why people are complaining, this is exactly the type of move they shoudl be making... It's the same reason why they should get Bedard (though he will cost more).

Kwak
12-21-2012, 09:00 PM
Let's not kid ourselves--none of these "marginal" pitchers signed can be "flipped" for someone useful--remember Livan Hernandez and his 10 wins in July '08?--nobody wanted him!

mike wants wins
12-21-2012, 09:33 PM
I agree, fixing the team in 1 year is unrealistic. That is why signing one legit pitcher this year made sense. He can either be here in 2 or 3 years, or be traded for more prospects. As for the 75 win number, do people think a team like that will sell tickets? And if their revenue drops, do you think they will buy players next year?

OldManWinter
12-22-2012, 12:14 AM
I have had three rotator cuff surgeries in the past 11 years. The first was described as large, the next was bigger, and the last one (all by the same surgeon) was was said to be way bigger.

I do not know how these compare to what Harden had, or anyone elses either. In fact it was never explained to me why my tears were considered large to huge.

I would say returning to high performance would be very ambitious unless his is a small tear. Lets hope for the best.

Paul Pleiss
12-22-2012, 12:45 AM
I think I read the Twins will have 34 pitchers in camp this spring, looking to give a lot of arms a look and see what sticks.

-P

Texas Mike
12-22-2012, 08:01 AM
[when in Texas, Harden was known as the "Club Douche". It is another low risk move by TR.

Riverbrian
12-22-2012, 09:28 AM
I think I read the Twins will have 34 pitchers in camp this spring, looking to give a lot of arms a look and see what sticks.

-P

That's not enough. I'd like at least 40.

jcphitman
12-22-2012, 09:57 AM
I love this signing! Nearly no risk and great reward if Harden succeeds. I'm never against a minor league deal as long as this isn't the Twins only move (which it is not for SP ... even though the other moves ... especially Correia... are questionable at best). I've been a big fan of Harden.

A bit worry hearing Ryan said the Twins medical staff examined him and said he was worth a look. The medical staff does not give me any confidence with what the team has been through with injuries.

diehardtwinsfan
12-22-2012, 10:45 AM
Let's not kid ourselves--none of these "marginal" pitchers signed can be "flipped" for someone useful--remember Livan Hernandez and his 10 wins in July '08?--nobody wanted him!

There was never a chance that Livan pitched like a number 2... and he still got flipped. Harden, if healthy, WILL be in demand come June... It's a big IF, but he could net something decent if he's pitching well.

Thrylos
12-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Interestingly enough, the injury’s origin, Harden believes (http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Harden-has-surgery-on-shoulder-he-hurt-in-2007-3165641.php), was sustained in 2007
I did a bit of research on Harden's injury history, and you can find a complete history of his injuries (at least in the MLB) here (http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2012/12/complete-injury-history-of-twins-rich.html). His first R shoulder problems started in 2004 and he had already missed 88 days because of his shoulder before the 2007 situation. He had a total of 22 injuries and lost more than 758 days in his career. What concerns me the most about his history is that he has been diagnosed with a UCL "sprain" in 2006, which made him lose 108 days (of RnR). His shoulder has given up before his elbow each season after, so if the surgery (capsule btw, not labrum) fixed his chronic shoulder condition, the elbow might go a la Joel Zumaya. Hope the best. This can be a really great signing if he is healthy.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-22-2012, 12:08 PM
I did a bit of research on Harden's injury history, and you can find a complete history of his injuries (at least in the MLB) here (http://tenthinningstretch.blogspot.com/2012/12/complete-injury-history-of-twins-rich.html). His first R shoulder problems started in 2004 and he had already missed 88 days because of his shoulder before the 2007 situation. He had a total of 22 injuries and lost more than 758 days in his career. What concerns me the most about his history is that he has been diagnosed with a UCL "sprain" in 2006, which made him lose 108 days (of RnR). His shoulder has given up before his elbow each season after, so if the surgery (capsule btw, not labrum) fixed his chronic shoulder condition, the elbow might go a la Joel Zumaya. Hope the best. This can be a really great signing if he is healthy.
When are the Twins annoucing the Scott Baker signing?

Thrylos
12-22-2012, 12:17 PM
When are the Twins annoucing the Scott Baker signing?

Same time the Cubs will announce the A. Sanchez signing and the Haren and cash for Marmol trade. "Done deals" get undone some times. Mea Culpa. Move on...

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-22-2012, 12:34 PM
Same time the Cubs will announce the A. Sanchez signing and the Haren and cash for Marmol trade. "Done deals" get undone some times. Mea Culpa. Move on...

lmao done deals get undone some times, why don't you just admit you were talking out of your ass? And then we can move on...

PseudoSABR
12-22-2012, 01:11 PM
lmao done deals get undone some times, why don't you just admit you were talking out of your ass? And then we can move on...
He mea-culpa-ed, Dave. No need to continue to pile it on....

snepp
12-22-2012, 02:40 PM
Yeah, but it was kind of a back-handed mea-culpa-ing, so it doesn't really count.

AM.
12-22-2012, 02:43 PM
Sure, let's hope TR grabs Bedard and Webb too. As an example, last year Atlanta grabbed Sheets, who was able to recreate his previous results. If any of Harden, Webb or Bedard got healthy, it would be a windfall.

I also would still hope Ryan signs Marcum for at least 3 years.

2014 rotation of Marcum, Gibson, Worley, Hendriks, and Diamond would be fine, with May and Meyer getting close.

darin617
12-22-2012, 02:49 PM
It's a minor league deal so he will get paid the same as the rest of the minor leaguers (around $50k).

I would like to know the value of the contract if he makes the at some point. I would have to think the contract has an out May 1st if not called up and possibly $1-2M for MLB contract.

Nick Nelson
12-22-2012, 04:00 PM
I think we've finally found an instance where the Twins' situation has played to their advantage. There were likely many teams who would've jumped at the chance to add Harden on a no-risk minor-league deal, but Minnesota offers him the best opportunity. Torn capsule surgeries are very tough to come back from, but he'll be a fun wild card to have in the mix. I'd be interested to see if he held up better as a reliever.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
12-23-2012, 08:23 AM
This is a feel-good story with a strong local connection. There's every reason to believe that Harden goes the way of Zumyaya. But, these are the low-risk, high-reward moves that small-market and mid-market teams must make to stay competitive. Maybe it's the Twins turn to get a little lucky.

I had the opportunity to meet the family last year during Harden's rehab. He was in Minnie for a family event. La Velle also reported, "Harden remained in Minnesota after visiting the Twins this week. Why? His wife is from Bemidji and they recently bought property there." Injury-prone Harden gets shot with Twins | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/184510721.html?refer=y)

His stats say that he's 6'1" and 195 lbs. I'd say he's closer to 5'10" and 180. It just goes to show that throwing a baseball isn't just about being big. He's one of 46 pitchers to strike out three batters on nine pitches.

Classy guy, good family. I wish him the best.

Badsmerf
12-23-2012, 11:06 AM
I love this signing. On a side note, if Harden can't stay healthy in the rotation the Twins always have the option of putting him in the pen. He could be pretty valuable there. Fortunately for the Twins, most of their injuries have come from elbows, not shoulders. Perhaps they do something right to avoid it. Plus, they were able to keep Radke's arm on his body for the whole season so hopefully they can help Harden. I think this is a good situation for him and hope he succeeds.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-23-2012, 11:27 AM
Sounds like they will be taking a run at Brett Myers as well.

by jiminy
12-23-2012, 11:33 AM
I think we've finally found an instance where the Twins' situation has played to their advantage. There were likely many teams who would've jumped at the chance to add Harden on a no-risk minor-league deal, but Minnesota offers him the best opportunity. Torn capsule surgeries are very tough to come back from, but he'll be a fun wild card to have in the mix. I'd be interested to see if he held up better as a reliever.

Good point. I bet there isn't a team in the league that wouldn't have signed him to this deal. But the Twins offer him the best shot and making the major league rotation. No one would give him serious money, but all he's really looking for at this point is a showcase. They should get as many of these guys as they can. Bring on Bedard and Webb!

mako83
12-25-2012, 01:09 PM
Bring in Myers to and we might only have a marginal rotation but a really good bullpen. Correira is much better signing as a setup man.

dmafret
12-25-2012, 01:22 PM
I agree.

dmafret
12-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Thanks for the info, now I'm really pulling for him. Always like somebody with the home connection.

lecroy24fan
12-25-2012, 04:51 PM
I think we've finally found an instance where the Twins' situation has played to their advantage. There were likely many teams who would've jumped at the chance to add Harden on a no-risk minor-league deal, but Minnesota offers him the best opportunity. Torn capsule surgeries are very tough to come back from, but he'll be a fun wild card to have in the mix. I'd be interested to see if he held up better as a reliever.

I see the potential of a career rebirth as a reliever. Greg Swindell had a good career as a SP and then ran into struggles for a few years. Then he signed with the Twins and moved to the bullpen and revitalized his career. Might be Harden's best shot.

jimbo92107
12-25-2012, 04:55 PM
It is a fine signing and I like the tactic but hopefully Harden's not the last. Certainly you improve your odds by pursuing these sorts with a little more gusto than Jr has to this point. You only need one guy to pan out to make them all worthwhile.

Truthfully, the odds of guys like Harden regaining their form after tearing a rotator cuff are probably lower than a guy like Deduno finally gaining control of the strike zone.

Miraclemat
12-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Does anyone have a few success stories involving pithcers who have pitched well after rotator cuff surgury.....just wondering what to possibly hope for!

Thrylos
12-26-2012, 10:04 AM
Does anyone have a few success stories involving pithcers who have pitched well after rotator cuff surgury.....just wondering what to possibly hope for!

Harden did not have rotator cuff surgery. He had shoulder capsule surgery. Details here (http://blog.sfgate.com/athletics/2012/02/09/oakland-as-more-on-rich-hardens-surgery/) in a SF Chronicle article.
They are related procedures, but not identical. Here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Rotator_cuff_high.jpg)is a pictorial of a rotator cuff surgery. The Capsule surgery involves the tendon group underneath the one shown in the picture (Supraspinatus). There is a list of pitchers who had the procedure in the article (including Johan Santana) and the consensus is that there are not enough data points to figure generalized pitcher performance outcomes after the procedure.

old nurse
12-26-2012, 10:05 AM
Does anyone have a few success stories involving pithcers who have pitched well after rotator cuff surgury.....just wondering what to possibly hope for!
Jimmy Key and Pedro Martinez come to mind. Key had a good year or two then retired. Martinez was ancient when he had his done. When he came back he did not last long.

From a government research site
PATIENTS OR OTHER PARTICIPANTS:Thirty-three MLB pitchers with documented surgery to treat rotator cuff tears and 117 control pitchers who did not have documented rotator cuff tears were identified.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S):Major League Baseball pitching attrition and performance variables.
RESULTS:Players who underwent rotator cuff surgery were no more likely not to play than control players. Performance variables of players who underwent surgery improved after surgery but never returned to baseline preoperative status. Players who needed rotator cuff surgery typically were more experienced and had better earned run averages than control players.
CONCLUSIONS:Pitchers who had symptomatic rotator cuff tears that necessitated operative treatment tended to decline gradually in performance leading up to their operations and to improve gradually over the next 3 seasons. In contrast to what we expected, they did not have a greater attrition rate than their control counterparts; however, their performances did not return to preoperative levels over the course of the study.

In other words, you can come back from the surgery but not as good. Flexibility is lost. Sort of like the same thing with a torn labrum for pitchers

old nurse
12-26-2012, 10:09 AM
Harden did not have rotator cuff surgery. He had shoulder capsule surgery. Details here (http://blog.sfgate.com/athletics/2012/02/09/oakland-as-more-on-rich-hardens-surgery/) in a SF Chronicle article.
They are related procedures, but not identical. Here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Rotator_cuff_high.jpg)is a pictorial of a rotator cuff surgery. The Capsule surgery involves the tendon group underneath the one shown in the picture (Supraspinatus). There is a list of pitchers who had the procedure in the article (including Johan Santana) and the consensus is that there are not enough data points to figure generalized pitcher performance outcomes after the procedure.

How much do you think flexibility is lost? Like with the labrum and the rotator cuff, the return would appear to be dependent on how much movement is lost.

Thrylos
12-26-2012, 10:37 AM
How much do you think flexibility is lost? Like with the labrum and the rotator cuff, the return would appear to be dependent on how much movement is lost.

I think that it is too hard to tell because the procedure is too new. FWIW, part of Harden's issue allegedly was that shoulder was "loose" and there was too much movement. Possibly restriction of movement might benefit it. This is pure speculation and I guess we will find out. I would also suspect that it might depend on individual mechanics as well...

old nurse
12-26-2012, 12:53 PM
I think that it is too hard to tell because the procedure is too new. FWIW, part of Harden's issue allegedly was that shoulder was "loose" and there was too much movement. Possibly restriction of movement might benefit it. This is pure speculation and I guess we will find out. I would also suspect that it might depend on individual mechanics as well...
Thank you for the rare (on this board lately) intellectual answer.