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darin617
12-15-2012, 11:42 AM
I really wished the Twins would have signed Brett Myers over Kevin Correia. It would have given the Twins a backup for Perkins if he falters as closer next season. Terry Ryan could have offered $7M to Myers instead of wasting $10M on 2 years for Correia.

birdwatcher
12-15-2012, 12:01 PM
Guesing most everybody agrees with you on this. I hate the Correia signing in a vacuum, but I'll REALLY hate it if Ryan doesn't find at least one more starter besides Worley that exceeds the Diamond Standard. Myers would be a poor man's solution to this. Kind of the tilapia of options, Greinke being lobster, Sanchez being sea bass....let's hope he signs him, because the options are getting pretty depressing.

mike wants wins
12-15-2012, 12:53 PM
I like fish....

Top Gun
12-15-2012, 12:57 PM
It's not to late to sign Matt Capps to a 4 year deal.

chavez
12-15-2012, 01:15 PM
Does that make Correia the Asian Carp option?

stringer bell
12-15-2012, 01:28 PM
Add Marcum. Myers, Saunders or someone like that. If everyone were healthy it is Marcum Myers or Saunders, Correia, Diamond, Worley and Hendriks. While this rotation won't scare the Giants, it has decent placeholders until Gibson, Meyers, Berrios and May are ready and would give the club a shot to be around ,500 anyway.

Jeremy Nygaard
01-01-2013, 01:47 PM
Myers is reportedly set to sign with the Cleveland Indians.

darin617
01-01-2013, 01:58 PM
Myers is reportedly set to sign with the Cleveland Indians.

I can't wait to see how bad the Twins screwed up signing Kevin Correia for $10M for 2YR when the numbers come out for Brett Myers.

I also read somewhere the Indians might be in talks with Arizona for Kubel.

greengoblinrulz
01-01-2013, 03:34 PM
Terry Ryan is so old school & in over his head with the new wave of baseball/baseball execs
His expertise in scouting/minor league player evaluation would be put to better use as an assistant GM type of role

old nurse
01-01-2013, 03:47 PM
I can't wait to see how bad the Twins screwed up signing Kevin Correia for $10M for 2YR when the numbers come out for Brett Myers.

I also read somewhere the Indians might be in talks with Arizona for Kubel.

Kubel has been mentioned going several places. His pedestrian second half of the season may hurt his trade value. Rangers and Orioles have also come up in trade talks.

old nurse
01-01-2013, 03:53 PM
Terry Ryan is so old school & in over his head with the new wave of baseball/baseball execs
His expertise in scouting/minor league player evaluation would be put to better use as an assistant GM type of role

If it is as you say that Ryan's expertise is scouting then perhaps the problem is getting Pohlad to approve the contracts? If Ryan knows a good player when he sees one but can't sign him then the problem becomes the money. The money is Pohlad's.

snepp
01-01-2013, 04:07 PM
You have to offer the money before someone can take it.

PseudoSABR
01-01-2013, 04:25 PM
An Indian.

Seth Stohs
01-01-2013, 04:41 PM
I'm ok with not signing Myers. He's just been moved around between starting and the BP so often. , and well, there's this: Boston Red Sox - Visiting player hit wife, police charge - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/24/visiting_player_hit_wife_police_charge/) -

jokin
01-01-2013, 04:47 PM
If it is as you say that Ryan's expertise is scouting then perhaps the problem is getting Pohlad to approve the contracts? If Ryan knows a good player when he sees one but can't sign him then the problem becomes the money. The money is Pohlad's.

Someone else finally seeing the light? On our way to $50M for '15...

darin617
01-01-2013, 06:06 PM
I'm ok with not signing Myers. He's just been moved around between starting and the BP so often. , and well, there's this: Boston Red Sox - Visiting player hit wife, police charge - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/06/24/visiting_player_hit_wife_police_charge/) -

Really Seth? I expected more out of you than that. So the guy made a terrible mistake in 2006. Does that mean he goes out every night and assaults women?

So much for giving anyone a second chance ever?

Top Gun
01-01-2013, 06:34 PM
According to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, the Indians have reached a one-year contract with Brett Myers.

The deal includes a club option for 2014. Myers, 32, had a solid 3.31 ERA, 1.22 WHIP and 41/15 K/BB ratio in 65 1/3 innings of relief last year between the Astros and White Sox. He'll return to starting duties with Cleveland and should carry value in mixed fantasy leagues.

Rosterman
01-01-2013, 06:35 PM
Can't wait to see the contract. In contest against who we signed for two years and one year, I hope they over[paid him for one year and the option. Otherwise.....

Rebuilding. Just Say It!

old nurse
01-01-2013, 06:59 PM
Really Seth? I expected more out of you than that. So the guy made a terrible mistake in 2006. Does that mean he goes out every night and assaults women?

So much for giving anyone a second chance ever?

Then there was the time they had to physically separate him and a reporter in Philadelphia. Third chance for anger management?

old nurse
01-01-2013, 07:06 PM
Someone else finally seeing the light? On our way to $50M for '15...

There is a difference between paying someone what they are worth and way overpaying. The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. They put out the money for Pavano and Baker. They put out the money for Mauer and Morneau. They extend Doumit when he showed his value to this club. Please don't even begin to think that I share your view.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-01-2013, 09:23 PM
I'm not going to get to upset about Myers, the dude is a wife beater (only above rapist in my book) and just isn't a very good pitcher. Of course I would rather the Twins not give Correia 2 yeasr/10 million, but we really need to let that go at some point.

I still want them to bring in Marcum though.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-01-2013, 09:25 PM
Really Seth? I expected more out of you than that. So the guy made a terrible mistake in 2006. Does that mean he goes out every night and assaults women?

So much for giving anyone a second chance ever?

Something like 88% of men who beat their spouse and get caught for it have been repeat offenders (even if they aren't "caught" again)

Getting a DUI is a mistake.
Getting in a bar fight is a mistake.
Doing drugs is a mistake.
Beating your spouse is not a mistake and is downright despicable.

I don't want a wife beating #5 on this roster. That is for sure.

nicksaviking
01-01-2013, 10:19 PM
There is a difference between paying someone what they are worth and way overpaying. The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. They put out the money for Pavano and Baker. They put out the money for Mauer and Morneau. They extend Doumit when he showed his value to this club. Please don't even begin to think that I share your view.

I doubt we will find out Myers was a huge overpay. It also kind of dampens your theory that free agents won't sign with bottom feeders regardless of money.

johnnydakota
01-01-2013, 10:59 PM
Terry Ryan is so old school & in over his head with the new wave of baseball/baseball execs
His expertise in scouting/minor league player evaluation would be put to better use as an assistant GM type of role

A>friggin>men

old nurse
01-01-2013, 11:16 PM
I doubt we will find out Myers was a huge overpay. It also kind of dampens your theory that free agents won't sign with bottom feeders regardless of money.
Top free agents. not low ranked ones like Myers. At least bother to remember all what I say if you are going to the trouble to be irritated by it.

jokin
01-01-2013, 11:24 PM
There is a difference between paying someone what they are worth and way overpaying. The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. They put out the money for Pavano and Baker. They put out the money for Mauer and Morneau. They extend Doumit when he showed his value to this club. Please don't even begin to think that I share your view.

With respect to your closing comment, believe me, I can sleep better at night, given your assurances.

Based on the last 2 seasons, your first highlighted assertion is laughable. Blackburn, Nishioka, Capps, Carroll and Correia ring any bells? They didn't put out the money and time-frame for Baker this year and they ran off Hardy for nothing in return because they wouldn't pay him what he was worth last year. The ill-considered contract paid- and time frame given-- to Mauer has crippled their flexibility to address other areas of weakness.

old nurse
01-02-2013, 12:03 AM
[/B]

With respect to your closing comment, believe me, I can sleep better at night, given your assurances.

Based on the last 2 seasons, your first highlighted assertion is laughable. Blackburn, Nishioka, Capps, Carroll and Correia ring any bells? They didn't put out the money and time-frame for Baker this year and they ran off Hardy for nothing in return because they wouldn't pay him what he was worth last year. The ill-considered contract paid- and time frame given-- to Mauer has crippled their flexibility to address other areas of weakness.
Carroll played to the tune of a War over 2. Not bad for a utility player. Hardy being traded over money is revisionist history at best. If Mauer's contract crippled them, how is it you whine so much about them not spending money they have. If you look at the time when Blackburm was signed to the deal on fangraphs, they had his WAR at 2.5 and 3 for the previous 2 years. That is better than Marcum the last two years. Everybody here thinks signing Marcum would be a good thing. When his sinker quit sinking, the Twins never fixed it. Sometime last year Parker Hagerman showed it in his videos that he was pitching differently. On Baker the Twins wanted the second year, Baker wanted a shot at a huge payday if he has a good year he would hope to get Sanchez kind of money. His numbers will look better in the NL.
Capps spent most of last year injured. Which Capps do you get, the one with the K/9 of 7 or the one of 4.7 ? Was his shoulder wore out and they didn't figure it out in 2011? Correia. Fairly consistent in w/l, IP. 5 mill is not outrageous. Less than Feldman got, the same as Villenueva,

beckmt
01-02-2013, 12:40 AM
Terry Ryan is amassing many parts in pitching to see which ones of them work out. Most are signed for short term(all Starters), so as not to block the hopefully young pitchers that will be here in 1 - 3 years. If the young pitchers do not work out, he can then be assessed on that score, not for trying to balance a fair competitive ballclub now and a very good ballclub of young players in 2 - 3 years. Time to spend money of free agents will be in 2 - 3 years after the holes become apparent. Pitching still wins games and is going to be very expensive all the time.

Brock Beauchamp
01-02-2013, 08:20 AM
I was really meh on the Carroll signing when it happened but after last season, you can't say it was a bad signing. Carroll is playing better than the money he's getting.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-02-2013, 09:12 AM
Yeah the Carroll signing was just fine IMO. The Willingham and Doumit ones were great.

Correia could be a stinker, or he could be a #5 for us. If it's the latter then the contract really isn't that terrible. Hell even if he ends up in the pen it's not the worst thing in the world. It's just 5 million.

jay
01-02-2013, 09:31 AM
Correia could be a stinker, or he could be a #5 for us. If it's the latter then the contract really isn't that terrible. Hell even if he ends up in the pen it's not the worst thing in the world. It's just 5 million.

If they wanted to spend that money on the pen, they could have gotten an elite reliever with a solid track record of consistency for that money. For some reason, I don't picture Correia fulfilling that if he ends up in the pen. Myers has at least shown he can be an above-average reliever if starting doesn't work out. I'm willing to give Correia a chance, but you're painting it a bit rosy here.

70charger
01-02-2013, 09:45 AM
If they wanted to spend that money on the pen, they could have gotten an elite reliever with a solid track record of consistency for that money. For some reason, I don't picture Correia fulfilling that if he ends up in the pen. Myers has at least shown he can be an above-average reliever if starting doesn't work out. I'm willing to give Correia a chance, but you're painting it a bit rosy here.

I'm not sure how calling him a possible stinker with a ceiling of a #5 is rosy. "Not the worst thing in the world" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

There's been a lot of bluster about Correia and how he's the worst thing since unsliced bread, but it really isn't the worst thing in the world. Two years is one too many, but it's still only two. And at an average of $5m/year, we're not breaking the bank, especially if you compare it to some of the other middle of the road pitchers who are getting $8-12 million per year on two to four year contracts.

I'm not a huge fan of the signing, but let's not pretend that signing Correia has broken the seventh seal or anything.

Top Gun
01-02-2013, 09:53 AM
CBS Sports' Jon Heyman reports that Brett Myers' new one-year deal with the Indians is worth $7 million.

This presumably includes the buyout for the 2014 club option. It's a nice chunk of change for Myers, who posted a 3.31 ERA and 41/15 K/BB ratio over 65 1/3 innings of relief last season with the Astros and White Sox. The Indians plan to use him as a starter.
Related: Indians (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/cle/indians)

Source: Jon Heyman on Twitt (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/286477717912838146)

edavis0308
01-02-2013, 10:00 AM
Yeah the Carroll signing was just fine IMO. The Willingham and Doumit ones were great.

Correia could be a stinker, or he could be a #5 for us. If it's the latter then the contract really isn't that terrible. Hell even if he ends up in the pen it's not the worst thing in the world. It's just 5 million.

Or you could be more realistic and suggest that him and his $10M salary could be joining Blackburn in the Rochester rotation.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-02-2013, 10:09 AM
If they wanted to spend that money on the pen, they could have gotten an elite reliever with a solid track record of consistency for that money. For some reason, I don't picture Correia fulfilling that if he ends up in the pen. Myers has at least shown he can be an above-average reliever if starting doesn't work out. I'm willing to give Correia a chance, but you're painting it a bit rosy here.

How am I painting it a bit rosy there? I said he has a shot to be a real "stinker" but at least if he doesn't work out as a starter he has some value in the pen ($5 mil worth? no) but it's not a Blackburn or Nishioka situation at least at that point. I still think there is a decent enough shot that he sticks as a #5, if he can give you 4.50 ERA and 180 IP that is probably worth 5 million a year.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-02-2013, 10:10 AM
CBS Sports' Jon Heyman reports that Brett Myers' new one-year deal with the Indians is worth $7 million.

This presumably includes the buyout for the 2014 club option. It's a nice chunk of change for Myers, who posted a 3.31 ERA and 41/15 K/BB ratio over 65 1/3 innings of relief last season with the Astros and White Sox. The Indians plan to use him as a starter.
Related: Indians (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/cle/indians)

Source: Jon Heyman on Twitt (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/286477717912838146)
Yeah Myers at 1/7 isn't to much more appealing then what we got Correia for. If you held a gun to my head I would say Myers, but its not worth getting to upset about.

GO. GET. MARCUM!

BBWriterMan
01-02-2013, 10:37 AM
I would have liked to have seen the Twins sign Myers, particularly over Correia or even Pelfrey, but I do wonder if they even made a competitive offer. The Indians are no more of a contender than the Twins are, so that could not have been a deciding factor for him.

Brock Beauchamp
01-02-2013, 11:21 AM
I still think there is a decent enough shot that he sticks as a #5, if he can give you 4.50 ERA and 180 IP that is probably worth 5 million a year.

180 innings of 4.50 ERA ball is absolutely worth $5m... Probably more like $7m, actually. And if Correia can put up those numbers (far from a given), it's a decent signing for a team that is completely pitching-starved.

My main problem with the signing is the thinking that led to this decision, not the actual money.

jokin
01-02-2013, 07:04 PM
Carroll played to the tune of a War over 2. Not bad for a utility player. Hardy being traded over money is revisionist history at best. If Mauer's contract crippled them, how is it you whine so much about them not spending money they have. If you look at the time when Blackburm was signed to the deal on fangraphs, they had his WAR at 2.5 and 3 for the previous 2 years. That is better than Marcum the last two years. Everybody here thinks signing Marcum would be a good thing. When his sinker quit sinking, the Twins never fixed it. Sometime last year Parker Hagerman showed it in his videos that he was pitching differently. On Baker the Twins wanted the second year, Baker wanted a shot at a huge payday if he has a good year he would hope to get Sanchez kind of money. His numbers will look better in the NL.
Capps spent most of last year injured. Which Capps do you get, the one with the K/9 of 7 or the one of 4.7 ? Was his shoulder wore out and they didn't figure it out in 2011? Correia. Fairly consistent in w/l, IP. 5 mill is not outrageous. Less than Feldman got, the same as Villenueva,

No Nishy mention?

Caroll's 2012 tune was significantly below his mediocre career numbers, at age 38, now he makes $3.75M at age 39 with a potential player option the Twins would be stuck with at age 40. This signing makes no sense for a rebuilding team, money and experience much better spent on playing prospects at the utility position.

The Hardy move most certainly isn't revisionist. The reasons for moving Hardy were thoroughly debated at the time. The FO and Gardy were concerned about his injury and Pohlad was too cheap to sign him for what he was worth and the Twins ended up with egg on its face on both ends of the deals for Hardy.

Mauer's situation has also been thoroughly debated and many, including me, showed how the Twins could have done a 2011 reboot for around the same payroll as 2010 and made another run at the Central Division. That the Twins chose not to do so, and only acquire cheap replacements for two departing hitters and none of the departing/injured pitchers begs the question posed.

Blackburn's signing was a headscratcher at the time and widely second-guessed at the time. Quoting WAR is merely lazy post-rationalization for what was obviously a poor decision to tie up money for a pitcher, who at best, was destined for mediocrity, but now has proven to be much worse than that. Blackie's sinker didn't sink at least half the time when he was supposedly going well, it was apparent to even casual fans that he lacked command on his limited skill-set.

Capps? Seriously, your "defense" of the signing is most telling. Even uninjured, he came in as an overpayed mediocrity and the Twins extended the foolish misguided waste of money and the misery of his signing because they wouldn't admit they made a mistake in the trade for Ramos.

Correia? Signing a guy who couldn't even hold the #5 spot in the Pirates rotation as a Twins SP placeholder for the next 2 years is the epitome of overpaying for mediocrity and does nothing to build for the days when the Twins return to competitiveness. So it is outrageous in achieving the goal that Ryan set for himself and the Twins in 2013.

Try again, this was too easy.

SpiritofVodkaDave
01-02-2013, 07:09 PM
Nishioka/hardy were Bill Smith Moves...

jokin
01-02-2013, 07:26 PM
I'm not sure how calling him a possible stinker with a ceiling of a #5 is rosy. "Not the worst thing in the world" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

There's been a lot of bluster about Correia and how he's the worst thing since unsliced bread, but it really isn't the worst thing in the world. Two years is one too many, but it's still only two. And at an average of $5m/year, we're not breaking the bank, especially if you compare it to some of the other middle of the road pitchers who are getting $8-12 million per year on two to four year contracts.

I'm not a huge fan of the signing, but let's not pretend that signing Correia has broken the seventh seal or anything.

It's quite simply money poorly allocated. The Twins acquired a guy who put up numbers that were less than DeVries and similar to Deduno, who probably would have been signable for less $$$ come February. You could beat the bushes and sign another dozen arms in search of another Diamond in the rough for less money, or go the other way and actually open the pocketbook with the obviously available payroll dollars and sign marketable talent that might acquire you some young prospects down the road.

jokin
01-02-2013, 07:27 PM
Nishioka/hardy were Bill Smith Moves...

The topic is the Pohlad's, and their willingness to overspend on mediocrity, or not.

ThePuck
01-02-2013, 08:20 PM
The topic is the Pohlad's, and their willingness to overspend on mediocrity, or not.

They overspent on mediocrity when they paid Correia what they did

jokin
01-02-2013, 08:29 PM
They overspent on mediocrity when they paid Correia what they did

...Tell that to old nurse...according to his theory. Jimmy Poh is infallible....and got an outright steal on mediocrity... in landing Correia for 2 years.

Rosterman
01-02-2013, 11:32 PM
Anyone notice that Rene Tosoni signed with the Brewers as a minor league free agent?

old nurse
01-03-2013, 01:14 AM
...Tell that to old nurse...according to his theory. Jimmy Poh is infallible....and got an outright steal on mediocrity... in landing Correia for 2 years.

The theory was top free agents. Please find where I said any of the Pohlads were infallible? Please find a spot where I have said that the Correia signing was a great one. Please find a spot where I even said Correia was a great pitcher. By what similar players signed for Correia got a fair price.

ThePuck
01-03-2013, 12:49 PM
The Hardy move most certainly isn't revisionist. The reasons for moving Hardy were thoroughly debated at the time. The FO and Gardy were concerned about his injury and Pohlad was too cheap to sign him for what he was worth and the Twins ended up with egg on its face on both ends of the deals for Hardy.

Hardy was moved cause Gardy wanted him gone. Gardy said, even before Hardy was traded, that Casilla would compete with Hardy for shortstop in part cause he wanted speed. Bill Smith moved Hardy because Gardy wanted him gone (or rather, that Gardy wanted speed and Gardy said one of the spots speed could be improved was shortstop). Smith made that clear.

Rosterman
01-03-2013, 01:07 PM
Hardy was moved cause Gardy wanted him gone. Gardy said, even before Hardy was traded, that Casilla would compete with Hardy for shortstop in part cause he wanted speed. Bill Smith moved Hardy because Gardy wanted him gone (or rather, that Gardy wanted speed and Gardy said one of the spots speed could be improved was shortstop). Smith made that clear.

Wait, I thought Toshi was replacing Hardy, with Alexi staying at second (although the discussion was always about whether Alexi was a better SS or 2B). And then Toshi breaks his leg out of the chute.

There was also the fear that hardy was going to ask for $9-10 million in arbitration instead of resigning for what he did with Baltimore, which would've been in the Twins realm. Especially when you factor in the monies paid for Toshi to Japan as well as 3-year (okay, 2-year) contract.

Going to be interesting to see how the Orioles infield of Casilla/Hardy/Valencia plays out in 2013.

h2oface
01-03-2013, 01:16 PM
If it is as you say that Ryan's expertise is scouting then perhaps the problem is getting Pohlad to approve the contracts? If Ryan knows a good player when he sees one but can't sign him then the problem becomes the money. The money is Pohlad's.

Does this mean you think Terry Ryan is lying when he repeatedly tells you and the rest of the world that money in not an issue here? Would Terry Ryan lie to the media and fans like that? Terry???

old nurse
01-03-2013, 01:36 PM
Does this mean you think Terry Ryan is lying when he repeatedly tells you and the rest of the world that money in not an issue here? Would Terry Ryan lie to the media and fans like that? Terry???
When you consider the amount of payroll the Twins lost on injured players I would venture a guess that Pohlad would not want to sign an injury prone player to a large contract. Is over paying for mediocre talent really going to put that many more fans in the seats? Do you think they are going to pack Target Field to see a 75 win team? I could see them trading a prospect more a soon to be free agent that is not good enough to be tendered and signing them if they work out. I can see them trading for a veteran player who's had a down year and if they rediscover form signing them. The issue is not spending money as much as how it is spend. They are a bit cautious. A few more rewards and maybe they will be less nervous.

ThePuck
01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
Wait, I thought Toshi was replacing Hardy, with Alexi staying at second (although the discussion was always about whether Alexi was a better SS or 2B). And then Toshi breaks his leg out of the chute.

There was also the fear that hardy was going to ask for $9-10 million in arbitration instead of resigning for what he did with Baltimore, which would've been in the Twins realm. Especially when you factor in the monies paid for Toshi to Japan as well as 3-year (okay, 2-year) contract.

Going to be interesting to see how the Orioles infield of Casilla/Hardy/Valencia plays out in 2013.

nope....even when they signed Nishi, they questioned his arm and pegged him to play 2B...then there was an uproar of deciding it so quickly, especially after our shortstop was shipped off, so they backpedaled and said they'd determine who played where in ST (our famous ST battles), and one week into ST, magically, Casilla was the starting shortstop...kind of what we knew was gonna happen all along. When Nishi broke his leg, he was playing 2B and Casilla was at shortstop

edavis0308
01-03-2013, 01:52 PM
When you consider the amount of payroll the Twins lost on injured players I would venture a guess that Pohlad would not want to sign an injury prone player to a large contract. Is over paying for mediocre talent really going to put that many more fans in the seats? Do you think they are going to pack Target Field to see a 75 win team? I could see them trading a prospect more a soon to be free agent that is not good enough to be tendered and signing them if they work out. I can see them trading for a veteran player who's had a down year and if they rediscover form signing them. The issue is not spending money as much as how it is spend. They are a bit cautious. A few more rewards and maybe they will be less nervous.

I think you are underestimating how much more of a negative effect a 65 win team can have on attendence over a 75-80 win team.

jokin
01-03-2013, 06:37 PM
Hardy was moved cause Gardy wanted him gone. Gardy said, even before Hardy was traded, that Casilla would compete with Hardy for shortstop in part cause he wanted speed. Bill Smith moved Hardy because Gardy wanted him gone (or rather, that Gardy wanted speed and Gardy said one of the spots speed could be improved was shortstop). Smith made that clear.

Casilla over Hardy???, that alone should mean that Gardy and Smith should have have been shipped out on the same boat after 2011. I'm not sure that Gardy necessarily had Smith wrapped around his little finger, but he sure had his other fingerprints all over many curious personnel moves, both in acquisition and distribution during the Smith regime.

Smith compounded matters to the worst nth degree with one of the most one-sided trades, to the negative, in Twins history.

jokin
01-03-2013, 06:42 PM
The theory was top free agents. Please find where I said any of the Pohlads were infallible? Please find a spot where I have said that the Correia signing was a great one. Please find a spot where I even said Correia was a great pitcher. By what similar players signed for Correia got a fair price.

old nurse: "The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. "

Again, you can sign a dozen Dedeunos and DeVrieses and likely get a better return on your money than Correia.

old nurse
01-03-2013, 08:14 PM
old nurse: "The Pohlads for mediocre talent will not overpay. "

Again, you can sign a dozen Dedeunos and DeVrieses and likely get a better return on your money than Correia.
Can only get 10 of them with Correia's contract. Minimum is 480000. To get a dozen you would need Feldman's contract. You could 14 of them with Villuneuva's or Meyer's contract and get better return on your money. At the end of the year see if there is any difference in the end result with any of the pitchers that cost more than Correia.

johnnydakota
01-03-2013, 08:20 PM
When you consider the amount of payroll the Twins lost on injured players I would venture a guess that Pohlad would not want to sign an injury prone player to a large contract. Is over paying for mediocre talent really going to put that many more fans in the seats? Do you think they are going to pack Target Field to see a 75 win team? I could see them trading a prospect more a soon to be free agent that is not good enough to be tendered and signing them if they work out. I can see them trading for a veteran player who's had a down year and if they rediscover form signing them. The issue is not spending money as much as how it is spend. They are a bit cautious. A few more rewards and maybe they will be less nervous.

You made the point already...The issue is not spending money,but how it was spent...Correia is just this years version of Jason Marquis...
and may i once again point out i said in early october once Ryan was done collecting garbage , we may wish we had Marquis back....

johnnydakota
01-03-2013, 08:21 PM
Can only get 10 of them with Correia's contract. Minimum is 480000. To get a dozen you would need Feldman's contract. You could 14 of them with Villuneuva's or Meyer's contract and get better return on your money. At the end of the year see if there is any difference in the end result with any of the pitchers that cost more than Correia.

didnt Harden get 52,000?

old nurse
01-03-2013, 08:21 PM
I think you are underestimating how much more of a negative effect a 65 win team can have on attendence over a 75-80 win team.
You were not around in the days of Bombo Rivera. Gene Mauch managing his ass off to get a team to .500 that nobody cared about. They did not come out to watch a .500 team after they were a losing team.

old nurse
01-03-2013, 08:23 PM
didnt Harden get 52,000?
Do you know the difference between a major league contract and a minor league contract? Are you completely unaware what Harden signed was a minor league contract?

edavis0308
01-04-2013, 10:14 AM
Can only get 10 of them with Correia's contract. Minimum is 480000. To get a dozen you would need Feldman's contract. You could 14 of them with Villuneuva's or Meyer's contract and get better return on your money. At the end of the year see if there is any difference in the end result with any of the pitchers that cost more than Correia.

You're really going to pick nits of 10 contracts versus 12? Good lord.

old nurse
01-04-2013, 10:42 AM
You're really going to pick nits of 10 contracts versus 12? Good lord.
I guess making fun of Jokin was missed.

jokin
01-04-2013, 10:50 AM
I guess making fun of Jokin was missed.

I guess flailing around and unwilling to admit you were obviously wrong when presented with your own posts was missed.

FWIW- Signing a dozen pitchers to minor league contracts would fulfill my proposal------ even if you just strike gold just once and get a DeVries/Deduno find you would still be better off than overpaying for the mediocrity that is Correia----- and---- still leave room left over to sign a Jason Frasor-type the BP.

FrodaddyG
01-04-2013, 11:00 AM
Do you know the difference between a major league contract and a minor league contract? Are you completely unaware what Harden signed was a minor league contract?
Are you completely unaware that guys like Deduno and DeVries are generally brought in on minor league deals?

old nurse
01-04-2013, 12:17 PM
I guess flailing around and unwilling to admit you were obviously wrong when presented with your own posts was missed.

FWIW- Signing a dozen pitchers to minor league contracts would fulfill my proposal------ even if you just strike gold just once and get a DeVries/Deduno find you would still be better off than overpaying for the mediocrity that is Correia----- and---- still leave room left over to sign a Jason Frasor-type the BP.
Continued whining about the Correa signing on your part. There is a reason why at age 29 Deduno has had only 15 big league starts. The absurdity of trying to say the Twins would be better off with this mediocre pitcher over another is what I have been trying to get at. But if you come right out and say people are absurd they take it as a personal insult and complain. That a 5 million contract somehow limits the Twins in signing someone is equally absurd. At the end of the year the results may not be different with any of the low tier free agents or pitchers like Deduno and DeVries. From the pile of free agent arms Correia was chosen. When other pitchers visit the dl, Deduno and DeVries will get their chances. There is still a chance for the Twins to sign quality arms. If they do sign and history repeats itself, Correia can come out of the bullpen and start. By history the results appear to be better than Swarzak's. If you signed a dozen fringe AAA pitchers then wouldn't you get complaining that they are blocking prospects much like the complaining of the outfield and others at Rochester last year.

old nurse
01-04-2013, 12:22 PM
Are you completely unaware that guys like Deduno and DeVries are generally brought in on minor league deals?

Really??? The original comment was about Harden's contract and the author seemed completely unaware. It has nothing to do with DeVries and Deduno and how they were brought in or the contract they signed. The hope for Harden is completely different than a DeVries or Deduno.

FrodaddyG
01-04-2013, 12:25 PM
Really??? The original comment was about Harden's contract and the author seemed completely unaware. It has nothing to do with DeVries and Deduno and how they were brought in or the contract they signed. The hope for Harden is completely different than a DeVries or Deduno.
So when you said they could "only get 10 Dedunos or DeVrieses" for Correia's contract, those would somehow be $500K minor league deals?

jokin
01-04-2013, 12:32 PM
Continued whining about the Correa signing on your part There is still a chance for the Twins to sign quality arms.


This is the problem with your side in this debate. Calling a spade, a spade is "whining". While your side keeps thinking that: wishing for, hoping for, even praying for, that big signing, that "something different" move is going to happen, than what they've always predictably done in the past.

old nurse
01-04-2013, 12:59 PM
So when you said they could "only get 10 Dedunos or DeVrieses" for Correia's contract, those would somehow be $500K minor league deals?
Are Deduno, DeVries or any other pitcher like them with less than a couple years service time going to get anything more than a major league minimum when they are in the majors. At least be aware it was Jokin who said they could get 12 Deduno and DeVries for Correia's contract. If they were all on the major league roster, Jokin's math would be off by 2 pitchers. If you were following along the thread you would have also noticed I said I was making light of the absurdity of the comment by Jokin. And since you want to be serious, what does Harden's contract have to do with Dedono or DeVries since you brought it up?

old nurse
01-04-2013, 01:09 PM
This is the problem with your side in this debate. Calling a spade, a spade is "whining". While your side keeps thinking that: wishing for, hoping for, even praying for, that big signing, that "something different" move is going to happen, than what they've always predictably done in the past.

The amount of negative energy directed at a player that is hoped to be a 6th starter, disaster plan is just amazing.
It is not a spade so you can't call it that. That is why I view it as whining. Retort all you want. I am done.

edavis0308
01-04-2013, 01:16 PM
The amount of negative energy directed at a player that is hoped to be a 6th starter, disaster plan is just amazing.
It is not a spade so you can't call it that. That is why I view it as whining. Retort all you want. I am done.

A 6th starter that doesnt have the stuff to be more than a mopup man in the bullpen, that is destined to be DFA'ed and joining Blackburn in Rochester. Oh, and we will have him next year too.

I should add that I hope the guy can give us 180-200+ innings of <=4.50ERA and be able to hold his own to give us some value. History just isn't on his side. I'm moving on past this whole scuffle.

PseudoSABR
01-04-2013, 01:16 PM
This is the problem with your side in this debate. Calling a spade, a spade is "whining". While your side keeps thinking that: wishing for, hoping for, even praying for, that big signing, that "something different" move is going to happen, than what they've always predictably done in the past.If you tell me the sky is blue, I'd go outside to check. You're equating Correa to guys with less 100 IP of ML ball. I think you're definition of what a spade is changes depending on whatever argument you seem to be making.

FrodaddyG
01-04-2013, 02:48 PM
Are Deduno, DeVries or any other pitcher like them with less than a couple years service time going to get anything more than a major league minimum when they are in the majors. At least be aware it was Jokin who said they could get 12 Deduno and DeVries for Correia's contract. If they were all on the major league roster, Jokin's math would be off by 2 pitchers. If you were following along the thread you would have also noticed I said I was making light of the absurdity of the comment by Jokin. And since you want to be serious, what does Harden's contract have to do with Dedono or DeVries since you brought it up?
In this hypothetical, these aren't ten guys signed and given MLB roster spots. These are guys given minors deals to come in with the hopes that one or two pitch well enough to eat MLB innings at some point during the season. If that happens with all ten guys, then yes, you'd be paying them $500K, but you'd also have the greatest fortune in the history of the signings of flawed, marginal players. To stretch it into "you can only pay 10 guys with Correia's salary" when referring to the types of reclamation projects that a Deduno-Devries type represents is beyond absurd. The point is that by rolling the dice on a dozen or so guys like that, there's a good chance you could more cheaply fill the kind of highly paid, mediocre-at-best production that Correia is going to give you.

old nurse
01-04-2013, 06:00 PM
In this hypothetical, these aren't ten guys signed and given MLB roster spots. These are guys given minors deals to come in with the hopes that one or two pitch well enough to eat MLB innings at some point during the season. If that happens with all ten guys, then yes, you'd be paying them $500K, but you'd also have the greatest fortune in the history of the signings of flawed, marginal players. To stretch it into "you can only pay 10 guys with Correia's salary" when referring to the types of reclamation projects that a Deduno-Devries type represents is beyond absurd. The point is that by rolling the dice on a dozen or so guys like that, there's a good chance you could more cheaply fill the kind of highly paid, mediocre-at-best production that Correia is going to give you.

what part about it was Jokin's comment I was making fun of did you miss? Go back to where Jokin said it. Deal with him.
And you still haven't answered what does Deduno and DeVries have to do with Harden. Conveniently dodge.
The Twins tried out 5 replacement level pitchers at the major league level last year. They did not try Martis, Manship, or Matt Maloney as major league starter. There is 8 replacement pitchers from the minors for the Twins last year. None of them are in the plans for 2013. Liam Hendricks still rates as a prospect not a replacement, otherwise there would be 9 for last year. So they should try and find another 10? Don't answer. It is pointless.

FrodaddyG
01-04-2013, 06:15 PM
what part about it was Jokin's comment I was making fun of did you miss? Go back to where Jokin said it. Deal with him.
And you still haven't answered what does Deduno and DeVries have to do with Harden. Conveniently dodge.
The Twins tried out 5 replacement level pitchers at the major league level last year. They did not try Martis, Manship, or Matt Maloney as major league starter. There is 8 replacement pitchers from the minors for the Twins last year. None of them are in the plans for 2013. Liam Hendricks still rates as a prospect not a replacement, otherwise there would be 9 for last year. So they should try and find another 10? Don't answer. It is pointless.
Deduno and Devries relate because until they got "the call" to patch up the sinking rotation, they were making the same nothing that Harden will be making in the minors if he doesn't make the team. That's why signing a load of those guys is basically free to the team, as opposed to guaranteeing 100 times that to Correia to be a likely below-average pitcher, for each of the next two years, no less. Guess who we also will probably not want "in the plans" for 2014? Correia. But the Twins will still be on the hook for $5M, instead of nothing.

You act like this is even my point. It isn't. But then you jumped in and made your "hilarious joke" of a counter-argument, and the sheer idiocy and irrelevancy of it required comment. It's not like I'm alone in noticing this. Good lord, can we just get a name change from "old" to "senile" and get it over with?

snepp
01-04-2013, 07:30 PM
So, about that Brett Myers guy....

Top Gun
01-04-2013, 07:37 PM
According to Darren Wolfson of 1500 ESPN, Twins assistant GM Rob Antony gave the impression that the Twins did not attend Javier Vasquez's tryout in Puerto Rico on Friday.

Antony also made it sound like making a big move for a starter, such as Shawn Marcum or Joe Saunders, wasn't going to happen. Barring an upgrade, the Twins will head into spring training with Vance Worley, Scott Diamond and Kevin Correia as the top three pitchers in their rotation.
Related: Twins (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/min/twins)

old nurse
01-04-2013, 08:33 PM
Deduno and Devries relate because until they got "the call" to patch up the sinking rotation, they were making the same nothing that Harden will be making in the minors if he doesn't make the team. That's why signing a load of those guys is basically free to the team, as opposed to guaranteeing 100 times that to Correia to be a likely below-average pitcher, for each of the next two years, no less. Guess who we also will probably not want "in the plans" for 2014? Correia. But the Twins will still be on the hook for $5M, instead of nothing.

You act like this is even my point. It isn't. But then you jumped in and made your "hilarious joke" of a counter-argument, and the sheer idiocy and irrelevancy of it required comment. It's not like I'm alone in noticing this. Good lord, can we just get a name change from "old" to "senile" and get it over with?

So now it is personal attacks?
Please note the pitchers recently outrighted to Rochester. In a year of overpriced pitching these gems you like had 31 other general managers think they were not major league pitchers either.
You expect the 4/5 starters to be above average? Why are they in the second half the rotation? Because they are not in the top half of the staff. i.e. Below Average. Correia has generally had a WAR around one, which puts him by the percentage shown in fan graphs to be in the middle of the pack.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/483944/war_distro_2010.jpg (http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/483944/war_distro_2010.jpg)

edavis0308
01-04-2013, 09:17 PM
So now it is personal attacks?
Please note the pitchers recently outrighted to Rochester. In a year of overpriced pitching these gems you like had 31 other general managers think they were not major league pitchers either.
You expect the 4/5 starters to be above average? Why are they in the second half the rotation? Because they are not in the top half of the staff. i.e. Below Average. Correia has generally had a WAR around one, which puts him by the percentage shown in fan graphs to be in the middle of the pack.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/483944/war_distro_2010.jpg (http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/483944/war_distro_2010.jpg)

I'm not even reading your post. For someone that is claiming personal attacks coming from other people, you sure are condescending towards, oh, pretty much everyone you disagree with.

The Wise One
01-04-2013, 11:22 PM
I'm not even reading your post. For someone that is claiming personal attacks coming from other people, you sure are condescending towards, oh, pretty much everyone you disagree with.

Condescending attiudes towards those a writer disagrees with run rampant through this thread. A difference of opinion is met with scathng remarks. No side in this so called debate is imune. Your tone is not forgiving to those who think differently than you

70charger
01-04-2013, 11:34 PM
Condescending attiudes towards those a writer disagrees with run rampant through this thread. A difference of opinion is met with scathng remarks. No side in this so called debate is imune. Your tone is not forgiving to those who think differently than you

Hey, shut up!!

70charger
01-04-2013, 11:36 PM
(That was a joke, btw.)

jokin
01-05-2013, 02:37 AM
If you tell me the sky is blue, I'd go outside to check. You're equating Correa to guys with less 100 IP of ML ball. I think you're definition of what a spade is changes depending on whatever argument you seem to be making.

I just checked for you, the sky is currently black. For a guy who wasn't going to defend the Correia signing, you seem to go out of your way in defending the status quo Twins FO. You again go on the attack without much ammunition to back you up. The spade here is obvious to everyone, except the knee-jerk FO-defenders. $10M has been committed to an unflippable guy who as just as much chance to being a flop as being merely replacement level. The point was consistently made (was it just "asinine rhetoric"? you tell me) that the Twins can find 12 more potential replacement-level pitchers such as DeVries and Deduno for far less than what they've committed to Correia and still be able to afford to upgrade the bullpen with a Jason Frasor-type upgrade (sorry, I just can't stop repeating my "asinine rhetoric").

Now "just what is the color of the sky in your world"?

PseudoSABR
01-05-2013, 01:53 PM
Hey, if the status quo gets us more Mays and Meyers, I'm all for it!

Btw, the rhetoric here isn't necessarily asinine, but it sure is butthurt.

Shane Wahl
01-05-2013, 03:49 PM
I am not sure what the hell is going on here, but laying out some facts is nice:

The Twins not offering Brett Myers a contract is AGAIN BIZARRE. Why not OFFER contracts to these guys? If they haven't even OFFERED to Marcum . . . good god.

Myers is not necessarily a "character guy" at all. I wouldn't have really liked that guy in the first place, but still.

Kevin Correia's $10 million contract is a ridiculous signing. It's atrocious. Nick Blackburn's $5.5 million was polluting the payroll this year. Now Correia's EXACT same amount is going to pollute it next year. There was no reason to give him two years. One year and 7 million would have made more sense, but then Scott Baker . . . . Anyway, it is true that Correia is barely above replacement level since I cannot believe it gets any better than is 2012 season at this point. If this comes down to taking innings away from Hendriks, a prospect, who also could be better IMMEDIATELY than Correia in 2013 (and likely in 2014), it is just preposterous. If this comes down to merely being a shuffling part of a deck for Pelfrey and Gibson, then it isn't terrible.

That all said, I actually trust Nick Blackburn about as much as Correia, especially with time removed from his Twins medical staff produced injury exacerbation (just let bone chips be while you pitch!). So this wasted money is dumb, especially when you put Correia's 2013 salary together with the now gone Span salary and could get close to the yearly salary for Shaun Marcum.