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View Full Version : TR regrets signing Correia already?



jcphitman
12-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Read an interesting yahoo sports article with comments from both Ryan and Correia:
Kevin Correia, Twins finalize $10M, 2-year deal - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kevin-correia-twins-finalize-10m-174234524--mlb.html)

Some things that made me question whether TR (BTW, why do people call him JR??? I've seen this for years and always questioned why.) really agreed with signing Correia:

After finalizing a $10 million, two-year contract with Kevin Correia (http://twinsdaily.com/mlb/players/7178) on Thursday, general manager Terry Ryan acknowledged there's no guarantee the right-hander will strengthen the group.

Ryan raised the concern of Correia's adjustment to hitters he hasn't faced much, or at all, plus the addition of the designated hitter to opponent lineups in his transition between leagues.

Ryan also noted Correia's low strikeout figures, particularly in the last two years, realizing there's some risk in this investment.
''I'm not banking on big strikeout totals by him, because he is a big command guy,'' Ryan said.

I also will say Ryan was positive about Correia in the article too (mentioning he liked how Correia's numbers broke down and that the command thing explained his strikeouts as listed in the last quote above). Correia also addressed his lack of strikeouts and mentioned how wins were the most important.

Last funny point:

Last year, the Twins signed veteran right-hander Jason Marquis to be their fifth starter, but he stumbled badly, posting an 8.47 ERA in seven starts with nine home runs allowed in 34 innings. He was released. Ryan said he didn't care to compare Marquis and Correia.
''Sometimes the fit just wasn't meant to be, and I don't have an explanation for that,'' Ryan said. ''But when he left here and went to the Padres, he did fine.''

The big question of course is if Ryan already hints at not guaranteeing improvement to the rotation from Correia, why sign him? I know this has been discussed in other threads, but coming from Ryan just begs the question even more. Why sign him if you don't feel he's going to help? Maybe nobody else wants to sign here ... it could be more truthful than we could ever know.

Great article though. The most detailed article I've found on the Correia signing so far.

70charger
12-13-2012, 09:34 PM
He's being realistic, really. Think about some of the pitchers that were "guaranteed" to help over the past several years. Think the Mets GM, after getting Santana, would have gone back and said some platitude like there's-no-guarantees-in-baseball if he could?

I've said it before, and I might as well say it again. I doubt Correia makes the rotation much better. But I also doubt he makes it any worse, and that's an important distinction.

minn55441
12-13-2012, 09:44 PM
thanks for linking the article jcp.

I have a feeling that TR was afraid that like musical chairs, the music was eventually going to stop and he wouldn't have a chair. He wanted to make sure he got at least one pitcher. Probably not his first choice, but someone to fill a need. Still hope we have better signings to come.

jorgenswest
12-13-2012, 09:47 PM
If a pitcher is going to be around replacement level, wouldn't it be better if they were in the growth phase of their career path rather than the decline phase?

Alex
12-13-2012, 10:06 PM
It bugged me that Ryan quoted his win totals in another article.

Riverbrian
12-13-2012, 10:11 PM
Because he's honest... There is no guarantee... No guarantee that Hamilton will improve the Angels either. I'd be jumping on TR if he was saying that Correia was guaranteed to strengthen the group...

On second thought... I'd probably be on here defending him by saying I love the confidence or the way he is standing behind his players or something. I know who I am...

Seriously... Ryan has always been a straight shooter... I do appreciate that.

snepp
12-13-2012, 10:12 PM
I don't know about JR, but I regretted it the instant it was reported.

greengoblinrulz
12-13-2012, 10:14 PM
He signed him cause he was the only pitcher to agree to a deal at Ryans price.

USAFChief
12-13-2012, 10:21 PM
I doubt Correia makes the rotation much better. But I also doubt he makes it any worse, and that's an important distinction.

Enlighten me...exactly what is the important distinction?

mike wants wins
12-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Enlighten me...exactly what is the important distinction?

Good question.

clutterheart
12-13-2012, 11:04 PM
I have yet to see Ryan directly ask and answer the worst thing about this move:

Why the extra year?
If it was one year, fine who cares...but two?!?!? I am still befuddled.

glunn
12-13-2012, 11:07 PM
Maybe this is part of a master plan to get a high draft slot for the 2014 draft?

Kobs
12-13-2012, 11:15 PM
Maybe this is part of a master plan to get a high draft slot for the 2014 draft?

I don't know that they need a plan to achieve that goal.

Kobs
12-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Reading the article, Ryan's quotes don't necessarily jive with the narrative the writer is going for. He basically said that he's not a strikeout pitcher and that he shouldn't have trouble adjusting to the new league.

iastfan112
12-13-2012, 11:26 PM
If we had to go with a ****ty Pirates pitcher I'd have rather had Karstens.

Top Gun
12-13-2012, 11:37 PM
Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the Padres are "strongly pursuing" Edwin Jackson.

While the Pads appear to be big fans of E-Jax, he might ultimately be out of their price range. Rosenthal says the market for Jackson is "strong," and the Padres "may bow out" if the right-hander gets 4-5 years at $12-13 million per season. The Rangers, Brewers, Angels and Indians are also known to have interest in Jackson, though Texas and Milwaukee prefer him on a short-term deal.
Related: Padres (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/sd%20/padres)

Source: Ken Rosenthal (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/279446405037322240)

Badsmerf
12-14-2012, 06:41 AM
I'm pretty sure the origins of JR go back to the ESPN boards. I'm sure Brock remembers the whole story. I think it has to do with dankind. Either way, I just do it as a habit now because I've been been doing it for years.

jokin
12-14-2012, 07:08 AM
I don't know that they need a plan to achieve that goal.

Anyone yet skimmed the 2014 draft projections? What with the improvements being made by most of the Twins competition for the No. 1 pick, there's a strong argument that this might be the most productive use of Twins fans' time in 2013.

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 07:38 AM
Reading the article, Ryan's quotes don't necessarily jive with the narrative the writer is going for. He basically said that he's not a strikeout pitcher and that he shouldn't have trouble adjusting to the new league.

the National Enquirer editors would read the article... The thesis from the OP... And then look at the title of the thread... And then say...

"c'mon... Really??? That title will blow your credibility... That's a bt of a stretch... Regrets??? Ryan being abducted by Aliens is less of a stretch. Take the Aliens route for a title of this thread".

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 07:47 AM
Of course he regrets it.

jokin
12-14-2012, 07:54 AM
Of course he regrets it.

I'm choosing to take the optimist's tack on this trade and hope that Ryan forsees the Maholm flip of 2012 in Kevin Correia in 2013.

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Of course he regrets it.

I would imagine that buyers remorse and dealing with it would be a major part of a GM's job.

Just like... "we... us..." regular citizens go thru when we a buy a car. You can second guess yourself for awhile. Did I get the right one??? Did I pay too much??? If I waited longer could I have gotten a better deal???

I don't think the kind of buyers remorse that I am referring to... Is what you or the OP means buy "regrets" or "regrets already".

"Having regrets already" in the context presented is kinda trashy.

mike wants wins
12-14-2012, 08:13 AM
Regrets or not, those are not words to fire up the fanbase with excitement.....

jokin
12-14-2012, 08:20 AM
Regrets or not, those are not words to fire up the fanbase with excitement.....

TR was just glibly metaphorizing on Purses 'n Ears mixed in with Silk and Purses.....

this is what some on this board call Ryan's refreshing tell-it-like-it-is honesty.

chagen
12-14-2012, 08:21 AM
You think he regrets it now wait until midway through the season and he has a 5+ era

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 08:23 AM
Regrets or not, those are not words to fire up the fanbase with excitement.....

I don't think Terry Ryan is the guy you send forward to face the public... If you are trying to fire up your fan base.

Terry would be matter of fact straight forward as he told you about winning the lottery or the birth of his children.

If you want to rev up your fan base... I don't know if the Twins have that guy. TC Bear or the Fox North Girls maybe.

chagen
12-14-2012, 08:24 AM
I suppose will hear the new talking point of the Twins he's an innings eater. How about a quality pitcher? Is that to much to ask for?

Mr. Ed
12-14-2012, 08:31 AM
Lowering expectations.

It's the Twins' way.

jokin
12-14-2012, 08:33 AM
I don't think Terry Ryan is the guy you send forward to face the public... If you are trying to fire up your fan base.

Terry would be matter of fact straight forward as he told you about winning the lottery or the birth of his children.

If you want to rev up your fan base... I don't know if the Twins have that guy. .

Wait! You mean St Peter and St Antony don't do that for you? This is looking more and more like a year to revive: "

The MN Twins...Get to Know 'Em (before we trade 'em, cut 'em or demote 'em)!"

Brock Beauchamp
12-14-2012, 08:40 AM
Oddly enough, this gives me a bit of faith in JR. He knows Correia isn't a very good pitcher but had to sign somebody because the Twins need pitchers and lots of 'em. At least we know that Ryan doesn't have unreasonable expectations for Correia in that he's going to be some kind of savior in the rotation.

Which hopefully means that he's still pursuing one of the better pitchers left on the market.

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 08:42 AM
I would imagine that buyers remorse and dealing with it would be a major part of a GM's job.

Just like... "we... us..." regular citizens go thru when we a buy a car. You can second guess yourself for awhile. Did I get the right one??? Did I pay too much??? If I waited longer could I have gotten a better deal???

I don't think the kind of buyers remorse that I am referring to... Is what you or the OP means buy "regrets" or "regrets already".

"Having regrets already" in the context presented is kinda trashy.

Yeah, but I dig trashy :-)

Mr. Ed
12-14-2012, 08:45 AM
Which hopefully means that he's still pursuing one of the better pitchers left on the market.

Marcum is about it any more. And would he come to MN? Can only hope.

USAFChief
12-14-2012, 08:48 AM
It seems more and more likely to me that Correia IS the big FA splash.

i hope I'm wrong. But I'm never wrong. Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken.

phalvorson
12-14-2012, 08:49 AM
Today's article in the Strib more accurately, I think, sums up what TR is going for:
"The Twins, said Terry Ryan, "need competition. We need numbers and we need choices.""

So if he can't get quality, he's going for quantity -- and hoping that someone will rise above mediocrity.

Correia expected to offer stability to Twins' staff | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/183450221.html)

jokin
12-14-2012, 08:49 AM
Oddly enough, this gives me a bit of faith in JR. He knows Correia isn't a very good pitcher but had to sign somebody because the Twins need pitchers and lots of 'em. At least we know that Ryan doesn't have unreasonable expectations for Correia in that he's going to be some kind of savior in the rotation.

Which hopefully means that he's still pursuing one of the better pitchers left on the market.

I still think they should have claimed Jason Vargas last August and probably gotten him, at worst, for a B level hitting prospect. He's still cheap ($4.85M in 2012 and going into arb, but would sure look a heck of a lot better in that rotation than Correia, and be far, far cheaper than what it's going to cost now to get one of the mid-level remaining FA SPs.

Brock Beauchamp
12-14-2012, 09:08 AM
I still think they should have claimed Jason Vargas last August and probably gotten him, at worst, for a B level hitting prospect. He's still cheap ($4.85M in 2012 and going into arb, but would sure look a heck of a lot better in that rotation than Correia, and be far, far cheaper than what it's going to cost now to get one of the mid-level remaining FA SPs.

Don't get me wrong, I still don't like the Correia signing... But if it's part of a bigger plan to solidify the rotation, I can swallow it.

USAFChief
12-14-2012, 09:11 AM
Don't get me wrong, I still don't like the Correia signing... But if it's part of a bigger plan to solidify the rotation, I can swallow it.Pray tell, what is that bigger plan?

Brock Beauchamp
12-14-2012, 09:17 AM
Pray tell, what is that bigger plan?

To pick up an ass-load of starting pitchers, at least one of whom is not awful. As a secondary deal, I can handle the Correia signing. Hell, Ryan doesn't even have to SIGN another pitcher. If he trades Willingham for a starter, I'm fine with that, too.

But you can't sign Kevin freakin' Correia, keep guys like Willingham/Morneau, and then say "good enough". You either go get a Jackson/Marcum/Dempster-type pitcher to complement Correia or you liquidate whatever assets you have to get pitching. While I'm patient with the front office, I'm not a fan of half-assing it in hopes of things just "working out". Choose a legitimate course of action and move toward it. I don't care what course of action that may be, just pick something.

Boom Boom
12-14-2012, 09:21 AM
Today's article in the Strib more accurately, I think, sums up what TR is going for:
"The Twins, said Terry Ryan, "need competition. We need numbers and we need choices.""

So if he can't get quality, he's going for quantity -- and hoping that someone will rise above mediocrity.

Correia expected to offer stability to Twins' staff | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/183450221.html)

It seems to me that TR isn't really thrilled about Correia either. If the Twins need numbers, there's dozens of minor league free agents that can give De Vries, Walters, and Deduno a run for their money, and for much cheaper and virtually no commitment. With that approach, the Twins would have even more numbers and a better shot that somebody will stick.

beckmt
12-14-2012, 09:22 AM
I think this signing speaks volumes of what TR thinks of the pitchers (outside of Diamond) who started for the Twins last year. This is a large group that will move up and down between Minnesota and Rochester. Get those frequent flyer miles.

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 09:36 AM
Yeah, but I dig trashy :-)

lol... There are many on Twins Daily that do... A "Tabloid" club could easily form and take on the "Apologist" club.

It could be Republican vs. Democrat and the dirty tricks, backroom deals and filibusters could rule the day.

Jeez... That... Really ain't that far off.

Shane Wahl
12-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Was the EXACT same amount given to Blackburn 2 in 2014 as what Blackburn 1 is making in 2013 REALLY NECESSARY? Couldn't they mix it up any other way!?

johnnydakota
12-14-2012, 12:42 PM
It seems to me that TR isn't really thrilled about Correia either. If the Twins need numbers, there's dozens of minor league free agents that can give De Vries, Walters, and Deduno a run for their money, and for much cheaper and virtually no commitment. With that approach, the Twins would have even more numbers and a better shot that somebody will stick.

amen

ashburyjohn
12-14-2012, 01:15 PM
Reading the article, Ryan's quotes don't necessarily jive with the narrative the writer is going for. He basically said that he's not a strikeout pitcher and that he shouldn't have trouble adjusting to the new league.

This. I looked in vain for any further detail supporting the early paraphrase by the author that there's no guarantee. I'd want to see the exact question, and Ryan's exact answer, before inferring very much. It's very likely Terry was guided to talk a bit about the risks for this pitcher, he answered, and then it got slanted in a way that's pretty neutral to a neutral observer but a hot button to a Twins adherent. I don't think Campbell has it out for Ryan, but he didn't really do him any favors either.

johnnydakota
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
please take a moment to say a pray for the children and familys of Sandy Point

70charger
12-14-2012, 02:23 PM
Enlighten me...exactly what is the important distinction?

If Correia can sit between 4.5 and 5.0 on the ERA scale, which I think is reasonably likely, he doesn't make the team worse.

If we give starts to Cole DeVries, who is a ticking time bomb, it's only a matter of time before his ERA balloons, maybe out to 6, 7, or 8. (Think Blackburn last year, or Marquis.)

If we give starts to Sam Deduno, the walks will catch up to him. His SSS performance last year isn't representative to what he can do longer-term, and Correia is certainly an upgrade.

If we keep giving starts to Deunsing, who admittedly is quite competent out of the pen, we can expect many more 5-run fourth innings.

If we keep giving starts to Swarzak, see above.


I'll take the likely possibility of an ERA between 4.5 and 5.0 over any of the other pitchers listed. Wouldn't you?

USAFChief
12-14-2012, 03:32 PM
If Correia can sit between 4.5 and 5.0 on the ERA scale, which I think is reasonably likely, he doesn't make the team worse.

If we give starts to Cole DeVries, who is a ticking time bomb, it's only a matter of time before his ERA balloons, maybe out to 6, 7, or 8. (Think Blackburn last year, or Marquis.)

If we give starts to Sam Deduno, the walks will catch up to him. His SSS performance last year isn't representative to what he can do longer-term, and Correia is certainly an upgrade.

If we keep giving starts to Deunsing, who admittedly is quite competent out of the pen, we can expect many more 5-run fourth innings.

If we keep giving starts to Swarzak, see above.


I'll take the likely possibility of an ERA between 4.5 and 5.0 over any of the other pitchers listed. Wouldn't you?

I'm confused. Earlier you said he would neither make the team better, nor worse, which was somehow an "important distinction."

Now you seem to be saying he'll definately make the team better, by taking starts away from those you listed.


I'll ask again...what is the "important distinction" between not making the team better and not making it worse? And if he's not going to make it better, what do we care who he replaces in the rotation?

edavis0308
12-14-2012, 03:54 PM
On the bright side, the pitching staff cant get that much worse.. werent we second to last in the league in ERA?

jmlease1
12-14-2012, 04:25 PM
To pick up an ass-load of starting pitchers, at least one of whom is not awful. As a secondary deal, I can handle the Correia signing. Hell, Ryan doesn't even have to SIGN another pitcher. If he trades Willingham for a starter, I'm fine with that, too.

But you can't sign Kevin freakin' Correia, keep guys like Willingham/Morneau, and then say "good enough". You either go get a Jackson/Marcum/Dempster-type pitcher to complement Correia or you liquidate whatever assets you have to get pitching. While I'm patient with the front office, I'm not a fan of half-assing it in hopes of things just "working out". Choose a legitimate course of action and move toward it. I don't care what course of action that may be, just pick something.

word. My biggest problem with this contract is the length: wanna roll the dice on Correia filling in the back of the rotation? Fine. But why give him a 2nd year? They still need to sign another pitcher, and one with a greater chance of success than Correia. They have the money to do so, if they can find a taker.

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 05:03 PM
Article on the Twins MLB page says Correia is penciled in as our #4 pitcher. Who are the three in front of him? Diamond, Worley and who?

S.
12-14-2012, 05:10 PM
Diamond, Worley, Butera, Correia, Pitching Machine/Blackburn.

old nurse
12-14-2012, 05:22 PM
If Correia can sit between 4.5 and 5.0 on the ERA scale, which I think is reasonably likely, he doesn't make the team worse.

If we give starts to Cole DeVries, who is a ticking time bomb, it's only a matter of time before his ERA balloons, maybe out to 6, 7, or 8. (Think Blackburn last year, or Marquis.)

If we give starts to Sam Deduno, the walks will catch up to him. His SSS performance last year isn't representative to what he can do longer-term, and Correia is certainly an upgrade.

If we keep giving starts to Deunsing, who admittedly is quite competent out of the pen, we can expect many more 5-run fourth innings.

If we keep giving starts to Swarzak, see above.


I'll take the likely possibility of an ERA between 4.5 and 5.0 over any of the other pitchers listed. Wouldn't you?

Deduno and Devries probably pitched above their talent level last year. Correia does not make the team worse because he is better than any of the replacements would be if they had to use them regularly. It is not a hard concept.

old nurse
12-14-2012, 05:29 PM
Article on the Twins MLB page says Correia is penciled in as our #4 pitcher. Who are the three in front of him? Diamond, Worley and who?

Blackburn. The Twins studied Parker Hagerman's video he posted and will fix his delivery. He will become the pitcher they signed him to be. Marcum will sign a fair market contract to pitch here. Edwin Jackson will be influenced by Marcum's signing and sign here.

70charger
12-14-2012, 05:53 PM
I'm confused. Earlier you said he would neither make the team better, nor worse, which was somehow an "important distinction."

Now you seem to be saying he'll definately make the team better, by taking starts away from those you listed.


I'll ask again...what is the "important distinction" between not making the team better and not making it worse? And if he's not going to make it better, what do we care who he replaces in the rotation?

I think you've misinterpreted me, perhaps because I left out the part about how (and this is my opinion, so feel free to discount) Deduno, Devries, et al. pitched above their long-term ability last year. In the small sample size we had from them, they actually did pretty well. Throw them out there next year for 30 starts? It'll be a complete and total disaster. That is what makes the team worse.

What makes the team not worse is signing Correia, who is perfectly capable of pitching consistently at the 4.5/5.0 ERA level. Correia keeps the team at the 90-100 loss threshold. Trotting out Deduno, Devries, and Duensing for 90 starts next year puts us at 110 losses minimum.

That's an important distinction.

70charger
12-14-2012, 05:56 PM
Deduno and Devries probably pitched above their talent level last year. Correia does not make the team worse because he is better than any of the replacements would be if they had to use them regularly. It is not a hard concept.

This is pretty much what I'm saying, yes.

Badsmerf
12-15-2012, 07:22 AM
I think this is a good signing. I'm not sure why everyone is blowing up about it. Sure, he's nothing special, but at least he is an MLB caliber pitcher and will give the Twins some decent starts. For what they are paying him, he is a pretty good deal.

Top Gun
12-15-2012, 07:56 AM
I won't go that far as to say Correia is better. I think some of the young guys could improve alot. Who know's if Correia can even make the team?

Top Gun
12-15-2012, 08:24 AM
Who know's about Worley, he could pull a Baker. Scott is about the only pitcher we got and who can say he will improve. It's a real sorry state we are in, but we can hope. It's early yet, maybe Ryan can still get us a pitcher or two. WE need a awful lot. No one can pitch 200 innings or even go 7. We can't wait forever It's time to sign them up. We can hope till the losing begins.