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View Full Version : Josh Willingham+Justin Morneau for Mike Olt



SpiritofVodkaDave
12-13-2012, 03:07 PM
Boom. Do it.

LoganJones
12-13-2012, 03:08 PM
Why would they want to do that? They being Texas.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Desperation.

They need bats, now that they don't have Hamilton or Upton a guy like Willigham would slot in perfectly in that ball park.

gunnarthor
12-13-2012, 03:35 PM
That's not a totally insane trade idea. Morneau would do great in Texas and they need a first baseman. And Willingham would obviously be a good fit. Olt's a good prospect but not without concerns, mainly his defense.

Mr. Ed
12-13-2012, 03:39 PM
That's not a totally insane trade idea. Morneau would do great in Texas and they need a first baseman. And Willingham would obviously be a good fit. Olt's a good prospect but not without concerns, mainly his defense.

If there are defensive concerns then this trade will never happen. Defensive concerns won't work with your fundamentally sound MN Twins.

Brad Swanson
12-13-2012, 03:48 PM
If there are defensive concerns then this trade will never happen. Defensive concerns won't work with your fundamentally sound MN Twins.

There are no defensive concerns with Olt. Scouting Report: Mike Olt (3B) | Baseball Prospect Nation (http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/26/scouting-report-mike-olt-3b/)

No chance Texas would make this trade.

SgtSchmidt11
12-13-2012, 03:55 PM
There are no defensive concerns with Olt. Scouting Report: Mike Olt (3B) | Baseball Prospect Nation (http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/26/scouting-report-mike-olt-3b/)

No chance Texas would make this trade.

And here I am thinking that the Twins should at least get a second piece of some kind in this deal...

Brad Swanson
12-13-2012, 04:03 PM
I should say that the deal isn't really unfair, it just doesn't make a lot of sense for Texas. If they really want to trade Olt, they probably can get a better deal. Olt also could just play first for Texas.

Lesser Dali
12-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Straight up for Olt - Hecks Nah. Straight up for Profar - Hecks Yah, but that's not going to happen.

Since the Twins will most probably be dragging their knuckles on the cellar floor next season - it is best to give Plouffe a solid final look over at the hot corner in 2013, even though most people on this site think he is destined for failure - whats the worst thing that can happen? An error he commits loses the Twins a game. I believe the game(s) he loses for the Twins will be lost in a sea of losses caused by embarrassing awful starting pitching.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-13-2012, 04:15 PM
I should say that the deal isn't really unfair, it just doesn't make a lot of sense for Texas. If they really want to trade Olt, they probably can get a better deal. Olt also could just play first for Texas.
yeah it would prob take another piece from the Twins...maybe? I dunno though, Olt is a very nice prospect but is more in the 15-20 range then the top 5 range IMO.

Didn't they try to get Upton for Olt and the Diamondbacks declined? (I could be totally wrong on this)

I also think Morneau brings some value to the plate as well for them, and you never know....teams do tend to do silly things sometimes when a rival goes out and makes a huge splash.

Brock Beauchamp
12-13-2012, 04:17 PM
teams do tend to do silly things sometimes when a rival goes out and makes a huge splash.

See Revere, Ben and Phillies, Philadelphia.

gunnarthor
12-13-2012, 04:21 PM
There are no defensive concerns with Olt. Scouting Report: Mike Olt (3B) | Baseball Prospect Nation (http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/07/26/scouting-report-mike-olt-3b/)

No chance Texas would make this trade.

Yep, you're right. My bad.

LimestoneBaggy
12-13-2012, 04:26 PM
I don't think I've ever agreed with Dave on something like this, but man I would love that trade. Olt to 3rd, Plouffe to 2nd......give them Dozier if they want a third piece....this also would provide protection from Sano's likely move to first, frees up Parmalee out of lost ville (population 1) and for the craps of it, bring up Arcia and Hicks when the timing is right to keep them under control longer.

--> And this is why this would never happen.

Riverbrian
12-13-2012, 04:32 PM
I'd be more inclined to go after Perez... even if Olt is considered the better prospect.

nicksaviking
12-13-2012, 04:46 PM
I'd be interested but average fan backlash could be quite vicious. It would be hard to argue attendance wouldn't take a large hit losing those two. You also don't often see two established vets moved for one prospect. I'm interested but it would take guts to make that move. Even if Ryan had it in him, this is the kind of move that could get vetoed by ownership due to short-sighted attendance concerns.

mike wants wins
12-13-2012, 04:50 PM
Short sighted? How are attendance concerns not relevant at all? That said, I would consider the trade, because it isn't my reputation and money on the line....

LimestoneBaggy
12-13-2012, 04:59 PM
River...you're supposed to agree with me, to prove the Forks stand united.

lee_the_twins_fan
12-13-2012, 05:24 PM
This trade makes no sense – for the Twins. A) We're looking for pitching. B) Why trade our last two pieces of any value for someone who may be a flash in the pan? I'm sorry, but I don't see this happening. And C) Plouffe is not going to second base. Maybe to OF, but not 2B.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-13-2012, 05:42 PM
And here I am thinking that the Twins should at least get a second piece of some kind in this deal...

I dont think the Rangers would make this trade, but I do believe that it would be a fair trade, and I dont think youre too far off to say the Twins maybe should get a lower level pitching prospect with moderate upside.

JP3700
12-13-2012, 05:57 PM
Although I like the idea. Corner infield power isn't really a problem right now. With Plouffe, Morneau and Parmelee. Along with possibly Sano, Vargas and Harrison in the future.

With the Mariners missing out on Hamilton, my hope is that they also miss out on Swisher and become desperate for that power bat they've been seeking. That's when we jump in with Willingham, and look for a package similar to the Revere deal. Maybe a return of Brandon Maurer and Hector Noesi

Riverbrian
12-13-2012, 06:00 PM
River...you're supposed to agree with me, to prove the Forks stand united.

oops sorry... My bad...

Man I would love that trade... Olt to Third... Plouffe to 2B... Id even throw in Dozier to get the deal done. Could you imagine Olt at 3B and Sano at 1B down the line... Not to mention Rosario at 2B...

If that trade doesn't work... I wonder if going after pitching like Perez doesn't make sense as well.

lol... Go UND!!!

johnnydakota
12-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Ham and Justin ? I want Profar and Olt, even if we had to throw in Florimon and Harrison

ScottyB
12-13-2012, 06:10 PM
Heck, I'd go Willingham, Morneau, $7M and Corey Williams/Matt Hauser or Matt Summers for Derek Holland and a mid level pitching or MI prospect.

diehardtwinsfan
12-13-2012, 06:15 PM
Not to say that I wouldn't like Olt, but given the team's needs, I wouldn't consider this unless it was for a high upside middle infielder or more pitching.

TopGunn#22
12-13-2012, 07:19 PM
I think the Twins are giving up too much in this. Consider: The Rangers are a "WIN NOW" club and they no longer have Hamilton (who has just moved to a divisional rival). You offer Texas Morneau, The Hammer and a decent prospect (not a pitcher) for Olt and Holland. Texas plays in a hitters park where Morneau and The Hammer would flourish. Texas has a full rotation and Holland is on the block. If we spend not one dollar more on free agent pitchers, Holland is better than anyone we could sign. Heck, with the savings from Morneau and Willingham they could overpay for Marcum or Jackson or Sanchez. The key is what prospect do you give up? It has to be someone of value, just not a pitcher. With Parmalee at 1B and Olt at 3B why not give Plouffe a shot at 2B? With that kind of power in the infield, a gloveman like Florimon is O.K. The outfield would need both Hicks and Arcia but so what!!! With a trade like this we would have a solid rebuild in progress! We could find a corner outfielder on the market for a reasonable price. Maybe Benson would be the guy. The key is, Texas needs to WIN NOW. Why wait for Olt to develop when you could get 55 HR's and 180 rbi out of Morneau and Willingham. Finally, our starting staff in 2013 and beyond would be:
Holland
Worley
Diamond
Corriea
Gibson/Hendricks
With Meyer, May, J.O. Berrios, Wimmers, etc...in the pipeline. What top 10 Twins hitting prospect would you include in this package to get Holland and Olt???

kab21
12-13-2012, 08:00 PM
1st - Holland was only available when the rangers were trying to sign Greinke. They didn't and now they will keep him.

2nd - It's hard to say whether or not the Rangers would do a Willy/Morneau/Olt trade but I would. No, it's not pitching but it's a really good value and currently the only hope the Twins have at 3B in the next couple of seasons (or longer considering Harrison/Sano play terrible defense) is Plouffe. I would prefer pitching but Olt is a really good prospect. There's also the theory that the Twins could spend more money in FA...

tbh - I know there is an extreme pitching need but the Twins offense starts getting a little thin until guys like Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, etc make the jump from Low A or rk ball. I wouldn't overlook Olt just because of the need for pitching. Perhaps Plouffe could play 2nd.

By midseason
C - Mauer
1B - Parmelee
2B - Plouffe?
SS - ?
3B - Olt
LF - Plouffe?
CF - Hicks
RF - Arcia
DH - Doumit

glunn
12-13-2012, 11:25 PM
It seems to me that Morneau and Willingham might fetch a lot more if the Twins wait until the trade deadline is approaching.

diehardtwinsfan
12-15-2012, 04:01 PM
Again, I like Olt... but there's this kid named Sano that will be playing in A+ ball next year and AA/AAA in 2014 who last I heard was a pretty decent 3B prospect. In the mean time, there's this huge freaking vacuum of players up the middle and on the mound. I wouldnt' mind Olt in a Twins uni, but he isn't the guy we should be targeting when we trade Morneau and Willingham. The guys in Texas that we would like want are Profar, Cody Buckel, or maybe Martin Perez.

Shane Wahl
12-15-2012, 04:19 PM
I like Olt a lot and I actually think the Rangers would go for that trade given the existence of Beltre. They also have Joey Gallo for the post-Beltre years. But I think the Twins should not be in the business of trading X number of veterans for X-1 number of prospects. I would look for Willingham to Texas and Morneau to Baltimore or something, and in that case, neither one before the deadline. Maybe Justin Grimm for Willingham? Schoop for Morneau?

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-16-2012, 01:28 AM
Again, I like Olt... but there's this kid named Sano that will be playing in A+ ball next year and AA/AAA in 2014 who last I heard was a pretty decent 3B prospect. In the mean time, there's this huge freaking vacuum of players up the middle and on the mound. I wouldnt' mind Olt in a Twins uni, but he isn't the guy we should be targeting when we trade Morneau and Willingham. The guys in Texas that we would like want are Profar, Cody Buckel, or maybe Martin Perez.

Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.

h2oface
12-16-2012, 03:59 AM
Two valuable MLB Pros for 1 Maybe? Yuk. The trading deadline is the time for any trade involving Morneau and Willingham. Their value will be the highest and the teams questing them will be ready to give up way more than an Olt. Plus, you never know. Both Willingham and Morneau could be better than ever, Plouffe could be the player we saw before he was hurt, the pitchers could have breakout years, Hicks could be up and killing it.... you just never know. Morneau isn't done yet, and Mauer isn't either. And..... just the opposite could be happening with the team, but not the two Twins proposed. I like waiting to consider trading both. Some team will be willing to make a trade like the Revere trade.

glunn
12-16-2012, 04:17 AM
Two valuable MLB Pros for 1 Maybe? Yuk. The trading deadline is the time for any trade involving Morneau and Willingham. Their value will be the highest and the teams questing them will be ready to give up way more than an Olt. Plus, you never know. Both Willingham and Morneau could be better than ever, Plouffe could be the player we saw before he was hurt, the pitchers could have breakout years, Hicks could be up and killing it.... you just never know. Morneau isn't done yet, and Mauer isn't either. And..... just the opposite could be happening with the team, but not the two Twins proposed. I like waiting to consider trading both. Some team will be willing to make a trade like the Revere trade.

I agree with all you have said and your optimism is inspiring.

jokin
12-16-2012, 06:15 AM
Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.

Sano is going to end up at 1st and Plouffe is a defensive liability wherever he plays- he has future DH written all over himself. Why is no one suggesting Mauer to move to 3rd for the remainder of his career (with Plouffe as a RH platoon bat at the position), as catching becomes more PT and problematic for Mauer over age 30? Trading your top two power hitters for one unproven, albeit legit prospect- but remember- only AA-experienced minor league corner guy is madness (Olt had a very high, Sano-like, K% at AA and Texas (33%) this year) and doesn't address the long-term crying needs of the Twins--- those being SP and MI. In order for the Twins to dig themselves out of this hole, they must use their primary trading chips to adress their critical needs, they must get Perez in any kind of trade with Texas and something else in the MI (Profar/Andrus) and perhaps give up a top OF prospect in their area of surplus to make sure it gets the deal done.

As others have noted, including me, Texas is reeling from the loss of the fan-favorite defectees and are desperate to keep pace with all the improvements made by teams in their division. They may be as willing a trade partner in need of a big splash as they have ever been in the history of their franchise right now.

diehardtwinsfan
12-16-2012, 08:09 AM
Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.

Dave, no one is saying ignore the 3B problem. But to continue in your logic, we haven't had a decent middle infield since 1991, and that makes 3B look like nothing. I don't buy into your logic on Sano not sticking at 3rd. While I don't ever expect him to win any defensive hardware, he's going to get every opportunity he can to stick at 3rd, as there will be no room for him in the OF, and I'm not sure there's going to be room for him at first either.

What I am saying is that Plouffe is an acceptable stop gap for the time being and could, (if the bat is for real) be a long term fixture there until Sano is ready, at which point he can move to 2nd, but that is absolute best case. In the mean time, we still have 0 decent middle infield prospects that could be contributing by 2014 and very little in the pipeline that could be useful by 2016. If this team wants to contend in 2014-2020, they are going to need to have above average production everywhere. Olt doesn't improve that problem.

If we are going to trade with Texas, Olt isn't the target. It's Profar, Buckel, and Perez.

jokin
12-16-2012, 08:29 AM
Dave, no one is saying ignore the 3B problem. But to continue in your logic, we haven't had a decent middle infield since 1991, and that makes 3B look like nothing. I don't buy into your logic on Sano not sticking at 3rd. While I don't ever expect him to win any defensive hardware, he's going to get every opportunity he can to stick at 3rd, as there will be no room for him in the OF, and I'm not sure there's going to be room for him at first either.

What I am saying is that Plouffe is an acceptable stop gap for the time being and could, (if the bat is for real) be a long term fixture there until Sano is ready, at which point he can move to 2nd, but that is absolute best case. In the mean time, we still have 0 decent middle infield prospects that could be contributing by 2014 and very little in the pipeline that could be useful by 2016. If this team wants to contend in 2014-2020, they are going to need to have above average production everywhere. Olt doesn't improve that problem.

If we are going to trade with Texas, Olt isn't the target. It's Profar, Buckel, and Perez.

I agree on your trade targets, they need 2 of 3 for this to make any sense.

But I agree with Dave on Sano. While I would love to see him work out at 3rd, based on his play and performance eval thus far, the chances of him sticking at 3rd are probably 1/3. If and when he's ready, they will make room for him at 1st or OF.

Also, don't discount Rosario as a contributor sooner rather than later, he would make for a good MI 2B combined with a very strong defensive SS possibly acquired in this trade with the Rangers.

TopGunn#22
12-16-2012, 08:34 AM
I agree that pitching and middle infield need to be the focus. Remember, Koskie and Gaetti were not Gold Glover's at the same stage Sano is at. I'm not suggesting sano is a Gold Glover either, just that he could be decent. And with that bat...I also agree that Morneau could be ready to come back in a big way, and I'm expecting some regression from Willingham. It may be better to trade "The Hammer" now if the price was right and trade Morneau at the deadline (or keep him, I love the guy). I would target Andrus. Willingham and a top #15 prospect (not a pitcher) to Texas for Andrus. In Arlington, "The Hammer" just might duplicate his 2012 season. Andrus is a top of the order bat and would give us our first legit SS since Gagne. Which top #15 prospect do you guys think could make this happen?

Top Gun
12-16-2012, 08:38 AM
The Twins are only a couple of players away from winning the central this year. Go Twins!

kab21
12-16-2012, 08:40 AM
Sano will make room in the OF or 1B when he's ready. it's just unlikely that he'll stick at 3B even though he'll have a another season or two to work at 3B.

I'm not sure why the lack of MI prospects was brought up. I'm all for targeting MI prospects also. Schoop is on my list as well as Sardinas and Odor from TEX but Olt is a better prospect than any of them and if I'm trading then I'm trading for the best prospect that I could get. And it's not like the Twins are stacked at 3B.

Profar is completely off the table so please stop bringing his name up. Andrus is also unobtainable for the Twins.

jokin
12-16-2012, 08:42 AM
Sano will make room in the OF or 1B when he's ready. it's just unlikely that he'll stick at 3B even though he'll have a another season or two to work at 3B.

I'm not sure why the lack of MI prospects was brought up. I'm all for targeting MI prospects also. Schoop is on my list as well as Sardinas and Odor from TEX but Olt is a better prospect than any of them and if I'm trading then I'm trading for the best prospect that I could get. And it's not like the Twins are stacked at 3B.

Profar is completely off the table so please stop bringing his name up. Andrus is also unobtainable for the Twins.

Debatable point.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-16-2012, 08:46 AM
Profar is untouchable at this point(for the twins) and Andrus is about to get really expensive in 2 years.

You can live with slap hitting slick fielding MI, you need your 3rd baseman to smack it IMO, I wouldn't over pay just to get a MI over a superior 3rd base option.

nicksaviking
12-16-2012, 08:50 AM
Debatable point.

Well he was unobtainable for Justin Upton and the Twins don't have A comparable trade chip.

jokin
12-16-2012, 08:55 AM
Profar is untouchable at this point(for the twins) and Andrus is about to get really expensive in 2 years.

You can live with slap hitting slick fielding MI, you need your 3rd baseman to smack it IMO, I wouldn't over pay just to get a MI over a superior 3rd base option.

Andrus gets expensive right about the time when the only guy making anything over peanuts is Joe Mauer. The Twins can afford him at that point and could answer their SS needs for the next decade and a half- or they could flip him for a boatload of talent in the interim of his team-controlled years. He's a proven commodity at the most important field position. Unless your are certain that Olt is going to be a lock to provide a Beltre-type career, why not acquire the greater need with your best trading chips?

jokin
12-16-2012, 08:58 AM
Well he was unobtainable for Justin Upton and the Twins don't have A comparable trade chip.

Given recent personnel developments on their club and their chief competitors, the Rangers arguably aren't trading from the same position of strength.

kab21
12-16-2012, 08:58 AM
Debatable point.

Debateable with those that have delusions regarding the value of Willingham and Morneau I guess. Offering a top 15 prospect does nothing to close the value gap or the needs that Texas has (MLB needs).

jokin
12-16-2012, 09:21 AM
Debateable with those that have delusions regarding the value of Willingham and Morneau I guess. Offering a top 15 prospect does nothing to close the value gap or the needs that Texas has (MLB needs).

Delusions? The Rangers have depth at certain positions and glaring needs at others, use your imagination, a trade might involve a 3rd team in order to meet all their "MLB needs". As far as value goes, the WARs of Willingham and Andrus were about the same in 2012, and the Rangers have made it clear that Andrus is expendable. They need some splashy moves of their own just to show the fanbase that they are not taking their losses lying down. Willingham would be a major upgrade over Nelson Cruz (WAR 4 vs 1.3). And why does offering a top Twins prospect do nothing to close the value gap?

kab21
12-16-2012, 10:44 AM
Awesome. Willingham has a career season at age 33 and you think that is worth one the best SS's in the league that happens to be 24 yrs old. This is what I consider delusional.

SpantheMan
12-16-2012, 11:05 AM
It would make sense for us to pay some of their salaries. I know Texas has a high payroll but we also have cap room to spare, especially if we trade those two. Then TR could say that we are playing money to get better prospects and bit just being cheap.

diehardtwinsfan
12-16-2012, 11:26 AM
Sano will make room in the OF or 1B when he's ready. it's just unlikely that he'll stick at 3B even though he'll have a another season or two to work at 3B.

I'm not sure why the lack of MI prospects was brought up. I'm all for targeting MI prospects also. Schoop is on my list as well as Sardinas and Odor from TEX but Olt is a better prospect than any of them and if I'm trading then I'm trading for the best prospect that I could get. And it's not like the Twins are stacked at 3B.

Profar is completely off the table so please stop bringing his name up. Andrus is also unobtainable for the Twins.

Then you don't make the trade (and to be clear, we should not be targeting Andrus either).

I agree that the Twins aren't stacked at 3B, but right now, but they have options. They have no options up the middle sans Rosario, and he won't be ready in 2014, and there's question as to whether or not he will even stick at 2nd. In most seasons, impact 3B can be found in free agency whereas impact MI cannot.

USAFChief
12-16-2012, 03:47 PM
Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point

87.36% of percentages you see on am Internet board are made up on the spot.

Ranger Vic
12-17-2012, 03:51 AM
As a Rangers fan, I don't think the Rangers would do this trade, but I wouldn't completely rule it out. The Rangers could use another bat, but they are likely going to move Ian Kinsler to first base. I think Willingham would be a good fit, but Morneau's injury history would be a concern.

Ranger Vic
12-17-2012, 04:04 AM
That is the Morneau and Willingham trade for Olt is a possibility. I don't think the Rangers would have any interest in trading Andrus or Profar, especially after losing Hamilton. They are planning on playing Andrus at short, Profar at 2nd, and Kinsler at first.

ericchri
12-17-2012, 04:44 PM
The Sano can't stick at 3B talk seems a wee bit overdone. I don't know any more than anybody else does, obviously, but I don't care that someone (KLaw?) labeled him as iffy to stick there. Until the Twins do something else with him, he's a 3B, and why on earth would you be looking to move him to another position before he has to. You should be encouraging the Twins to stick with him at 3B.

Geez, Corey Koskie was bad at 3B when he first got up, and he turned into a really good defensive player. And he was 6'3", 220 lbs, meaning around the same size as Sano (who supposedly has a fantastic throwing arm). Would Miguel Cabrera be better at 1B than 3B? Sure. But you can't tell me playing him at 3B is a mistake right now, not with the roster composition they have. The absolute best thing for this team long-term is Sano sticking at 3B and Rosario sticking at 2B, and writing them off at those positions for a somewhat sketchy trade now seems kind of silly.

Everyone should be rooting for Swisher to sign with Cleveland, though. Anything to make Texas more desperate.

kab21
12-17-2012, 08:37 PM
The Sano can't stick at 3B talk seems a wee bit overdone. I don't know any more than anybody else does, obviously, but I don't care that someone (KLaw?) labeled him as iffy to stick there. Until the Twins do something else with him, he's a 3B, and why on earth would you be looking to move him to another position before he has to. You should be encouraging the Twins to stick with him at 3B.

Geez, Corey Koskie was bad at 3B when he first got up, and he turned into a really good defensive player. And he was 6'3", 220 lbs, meaning around the same size as Sano (who supposedly has a fantastic throwing arm). Would Miguel Cabrera be better at 1B than 3B? Sure. But you can't tell me playing him at 3B is a mistake right now, not with the roster composition they have. The absolute best thing for this team long-term is Sano sticking at 3B and Rosario sticking at 2B, and writing them off at those positions for a somewhat sketchy trade now seems kind of silly.

Everyone should be rooting for Swisher to sign with Cleveland, though. Anything to make Texas more desperate.

You know what's out of hand? Constantly bringing up Koskie like it's relevant. Keith Law isn't the only person that thinks Sano won't stick at 3B. Pretty much every scouting report says that he's a good athlete but he'll likely be forced off 3B. Of course you give him every chance to stay at 3B but you also need to prepare for a likely inevitable move. The depth chart at 3B consists of Plouffe, Sano and harrison (even worse at defense). Even MI has more depth in the minors.

johnnydakota
12-17-2012, 08:47 PM
Would the Mets part with Dárnaud for Willingham ?
It would be nice to add a piece for the future who is mlb ready
We might have to throw in Herrmann also .

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-17-2012, 09:35 PM
Would the Mets part with Dárnaud for Willingham ?
It would be nice to add a piece for the future who is mlb ready
We might have to throw in Herrmann also .
No. No they would not......

old nurse
12-17-2012, 09:44 PM
You know what's out of hand? Constantly bringing up Koskie like it's relevant. Keith Law isn't the only person that thinks Sano won't stick at 3B. Pretty much every scouting report says that he's a good athlete but he'll likely be forced off 3B. Of course you give him every chance to stay at 3B but you also need to prepare for a likely inevitable move. The depth chart at 3B consists of Plouffe, Sano and harrison (even worse at defense). Even MI has more depth in the minors.

Garry Gaetti was bad until he got good. Then he tried to throw the ball when his hands were on his throat. Sadly, the rest is history.

beckmt
12-17-2012, 10:44 PM
Rosario may be here in 2014, with a chance in 2013. 3B needs to give Pouffe a chance for next year and then see what we have. Sano may or may not stick. Santana may be here in 2014 - 2015. Pitching is the problem area and you need more than max #3 types. Hopefully a couple of the better ones develop. Twins now have about 8 - 10 #4 and #5 types. Better is needed. Twins need to trade only for pitching and MI prospects(second choice). Mariners might be best target(noted above) for a deal to bring back more pitching. That is the way to go.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-17-2012, 11:50 PM
Remember that one player who was shaky at defense then become good? Yeah, I mean if a couple bad defensive players can become good, why can't we assume everyone else will?

jimbo92107
12-18-2012, 01:10 AM
True about silly moves. With the Angels stacking their lineup with 30+ homer guys, Texas may feel a need to respond with a couple big knockers like Morneau and Willingham. But I'd still rather have a pitcher for them, not another infielder.

mike wants wins
12-18-2012, 08:13 AM
Rosario is not going from A to the MLB.

ericchri
12-18-2012, 08:45 AM
Remember that one player who was shaky at defense then become good? Yeah, I mean if a couple bad defensive players can become good, why can't we assume everyone else will?

Remember that one guy who looked like a really good prospect in that one organization who ended up being good? Why can't we just assume everyone else will?

Because clearly panicking now and trading for another 3B PROSPECT is the right thing for this organization to do. Cause you know, since he's a PROSPECT in another organization, he's guaranteed to work out better as a 3B. And panic-trading two of our best hitters right now for said PROSPECT because we don't know what kind of 3B defense our own top prospect may be playing 3 years from now is clearly the best use of available resources.

This has nothing to do with whether I think Sano will be a good defensive 3B. If he turns into the hitter he looks like he could, he can play below average defense and still be a huge positive for the team. And it means we don't have to trade away good players to try and fill imagined future holes and can instead try and use those players to fill holes we know we have. We KNOW our pitching is terrible. You're guessing our 3B defense may not be good (and may be heavily offset by the bat he brings) in a few years.

And all of this ignores that we already have a relatively young 3B who hit 24 homeruns last year in less than a full season of at-bats. Yes, Plouffe is unlikely to win gold gloves at 3B. But he somehow stuck as a SS for his entire minor league career. Yes, we don't have a big enough sample to be certain he'll be a consistent above-average hitter. But he certainly has the potential. So essentially we have 2 guys in our organization, one already at the majors, one who will be in a few years, who both have the potential to be standout hitters at 3B. But because their defense looks iffy in the small sample sizes we have available so far, we should completely write off both of our own players and trade our 2nd and 3rd best hitters to go find someone else's prospect who MIGHT be a better defensive player. And who also might not be as good a hitter. Of course there's no chance he could end up being anything less than a star, right?

Look, I understand Mike Olt looks like a great prospect, and someday he may end up having been worth trading Morneau and Willingham for him. But since we're essentially looking at a bunch of guys who haven't yet proven they're a long-term 3B, why trade 2 of our best players for an unproven when we have 2 of our own unproven who might be just as good? So we can say we traded our players when they still had value and got something back in return is the answer, I would imagine. I think that's a little misguided, and if that's the reason, target something that's clearly a bigger need, a SS or SP, not 3B. If Plouffe faceplants and the Twins move Sano to 1B this year, feel free to come throw this back in my face. But it isn't a move that makes sense to me right now.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-18-2012, 08:51 AM
So you want to wait until Mike Olt becomes a bonafide star in the majors before we trade for him?

Got it.:whacky028:

Boom Boom
12-18-2012, 08:55 AM
In The Show 2013 this trade could happen.

USAFChief
12-18-2012, 09:18 AM
So you want to wait until Mike Olt becomes a bonafide star in the majors before we trade for him?

Got it.:whacky028:

its possible you misunderstood ericcri's post. I suggest you go back and read it again.

ericchri
12-18-2012, 09:25 AM
So you want to wait until Mike Olt becomes a bonafide star in the majors before we trade for him?

Got it.:whacky028:

Try again. My position is that if we're hoping Texas panics and makes a stupid trade, we should be hoping they give us something we need more than a 3B prospect, because we do have two of our own 3B prospects at the moment, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-18-2012, 09:30 AM
Try again. My position is that if we're hoping Texas panics and makes a stupid trade, we should be hoping they give us something we need more than a 3B prospect, because we do have two of our own 3B prospects at the moment, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

We have already been over the fact that they aren't trading us Profar and Andrus. If that is the case Olt is the best guy we could get.

Also, I don't think you understand just how terrible Sano has been at 3rd base so far, he will have to improve drastically to even be considered (below average) at the position. I hope he sticks, I'm just not counting on it, nor should the Twins. Besides Sano still won't be helping the major league club in 2013 and 2014.

Who is the other 3B prospect? Plouffe? I still think we could give Plouffe a shot at 2B or even the corner OF if he continues to hit. Either way our depth at 3B is very, very thin and Olt is the best prospect we could conceivably get from the Rangers.

Also Sanos sample size at 3B is not small....and for someone so dead set agianst us trading for Olt I haven't heard you mention one "pitcher" from the Rangers we should realistically go after.

kab21
12-18-2012, 09:44 AM
I'll make this simpler. The Twins should trade for Olt because he is a top 25 overall middle of the order bat that is MLB ready. I would love to get a top 25 overall pitching prospect but it's not easy to match up exactly on trades like this. And I wouldn't pass this up (if available) just because we have someone that is over 2 years away. I like Plouffe but his defense is also pretty questionable.

Shane Wahl
12-18-2012, 10:16 AM
Is this really still going as a two-for-one deal? I said somewhere that the Twins should not trade X number of players for X-1 number of prospects. I like the ratio they have going so far this year: 2 for 2 plus an actual major league pitcher.

As far as Olt goes, I would only make a trade for Willingham and see if Plouffe can play LF. I would assume that he would improve the defense over Willingham at least some and the Twins would be adding someone who has been pretty dominant offensively in the minors. It isn't clear that the Rangers are going to really have a spot for Olt with Beltre there now and Gallo there down the road. Willingham vs. Hamilton is definitely not a difference of 18 million bucks!

Big City
12-18-2012, 10:30 AM
The only way I see this trade happening is if Texas includes Perez and/or Buckel because TR isn't going to punt 2013 for just 1 prospect. Trading Span and Revere was different because we had obvious depth in CF and Philly really stepped up their offer. The same goes for Texas, they'll need to step up their offer if they want to woo TR enough to punt 2013. Another problem is that Texas' greatest needs are in CF and a top of the rotation SP, neither of which this trade would address.

LimestoneBaggy
12-18-2012, 10:59 AM
I still think this would be a good trade, however, I did assume that we would get more back (I just didn't deliniate the same). I have to assume that Willingham has peaked this year, and Morneau's salary is an albatross. Do I hope Justin will have a great year...yep, love the guy, but predictors for both are looking down (age, injuries, etc.). If we are rebuilding, and I think we are, trade them now or at the deadline depending on the offers. If Texas offers Olt and a high upside pitching prospect in the A-AA range, I still take it.

kab21
12-18-2012, 11:13 AM
Is this really still going as a two-for-one deal? I said somewhere that the Twins should not trade X number of players for X-1 number of prospects. I like the ratio they have going so far this year: 2 for 2 plus an actual major league pitcher.


I would focus on a Willingham for Olt trade also but realistically I don't think Willingham will land a top 25 prospect. This was indirectly mentioned by what kind of pitcher the Twins could get back in a Willingham trade. If I had the choice between a 2 lesser prospects or a much better one then I'll choose the much better one.

mike wants wins
12-18-2012, 11:17 AM
Ryan has already punted on 2013 with his pitching decisions, hasn't he? I see mo reason to keep these guys around now.

Shane Wahl
12-18-2012, 11:27 AM
I would focus on a Willingham for Olt trade also but realistically I don't think Willingham will land a top 25 prospect. This was indirectly mentioned by what kind of pitcher the Twins could get back in a Willingham trade. If I had the choice between a 2 lesser prospects or a much better one then I'll choose the much better one.

Willingham and his contract might land such a prospect. I would be fine adding minor leaguers or Anthony Swarzak, et al, to the deal (better Twins prospects for lesser Rangers prospects) in order to get the deal done.

Shane Wahl
12-18-2012, 11:30 AM
Keep in mind that the Rangers have been very, very close to winning twice now. They want a World Series immediately and are likely going to make sure they do whatever they can to win that in the next two years. Willingham is a cheap replacement for Hamilton and Beltre isn't going anywhere.

Shane Wahl
12-18-2012, 11:32 AM
Where Nick Swisher goes could keep this possibility open or end it.

twinsfaninsaudi
12-18-2012, 11:49 AM
Prediction: The Twins will not acquire Mike Olt.

Big City
12-18-2012, 11:49 AM
I still think this would be a good trade, however, I did assume that we would get more back (I just didn't deliniate the same). I have to assume that Willingham has peaked this year, and Morneau's salary is an albatross. Do I hope Justin will have a great year...yep, love the guy, but predictors for both are looking down (age, injuries, etc.). If we are rebuilding, and I think we are, trade them now or at the deadline depending on the offers. If Texas offers Olt and a high upside pitching prospect in the A-AA range, I still take it.

Is Morneau's salary an albatross? He's only 33, in great shape, and still plays a formidable 1B. If his concussion issues are a thing of the past what's not to say he still doesn't have a few great years left? Pretty much everyone on this board is predicting Morneau to have a bounce back season which would warrant a qualifying offer next offseason. Look at David Ortiz, at age 37, he's still making $14 million per season. So, the acquiring team gets a former MVP, middle of the order bat, in a contract year, to which they could potentially recieve a 1st round draft choice if they can't re-sign him next offseason. I think Morneau alone should net at least Cody Buckel but now throw in Willingham and the Rangers might also include Olt but probably more realistically Perez. Would we consider Perez and Buckel for Willingham and Morneau? What if they tossed in Justin Grimm?

Big City
12-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Ryan has already punted on 2013 with his pitching decisions, hasn't he? I see mo reason to keep these guys around now.

I don't think adding Worley, Correia, and Pelfrey necessarily say TR is punting 2013 and according to reports he's still looking to add. I think TR feels we have a pretty solid lineup that if we could add depth to the rotation that we'll have a chance to compete and I agree. If TR signs another SP like Marcum, Lohse, Jackson, or Saunders the Twins will have a solid enough rotation to win a lot more games in 2013 and possibly compete.

jay
12-18-2012, 12:28 PM
Where Nick Swisher goes could keep this possibility open or end it.

This is on point. I think we need to watch LaRoche also. We should be hoping those two sign huge contracts to make our guys seem more like bargains.

Once those two sign, we could see demand for both Willingham and Morneau pick up steam. The Mariners, Rangers, Orioles, Red Sox, Braves (still) or even Nats (again) could be some potential spots.

Personally, I'd be okay with moving Willingham (peak value), but I think we'd be better off keeping Morneau until the trade deadline.

LimestoneBaggy
12-19-2012, 08:42 AM
Is Morneau's salary an albatross?

When taken in context with the aquiring team having to eat the salary and provide a high upside prosect. In that case, I believe it is.

beckmt
12-19-2012, 09:30 AM
Parmalee is no sure bet to suceed. Morneau could come close to his old form. I could see extending Morneau now for 2 extra years at 9 - 10 mil a year and wait for the kids to arrive. If Parmalee suceeds then you could revisit trading Morneau or Parmalee and expect a reasonable return.