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JB_Iowa
12-12-2012, 08:39 AM
LEN 3 has a column on Twins pitching prospects. Twins' search for free-agent pitching isn't over yet | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/183099041.html)

He acknowledges that the Twins have "shown interest" in John Lannan, Joe Saunders and Brett Meyers then proceeds to name the potential starting pitchers in the system.

He concludes with the following quote from Terry Ryan: "We've got numbers." Ryan said. "It's just a matter of who is going to emerge. Some guys will be injured. Some will fall by the wayside. Some won't be ready. But we have to have numbers."

He did say prior to that quote that Ryan was waiting for the free agent market to heat up (which Ryan thinks will happen soon) but count me as less than impressed with that final quote from Mr. Ryan.

beckmt
12-12-2012, 08:55 AM
Numbers is what this will be all about over the next couple of years. Look at KC, they have never been able to develop pitching and the cost to them is now high. Twins have to find the pitchers, there will be move available(Dodgers have 8, KC has 6 - 7) some of these may come as salary dumps without a lot of prospect cost.

Brock Beauchamp
12-12-2012, 08:57 AM
As much as I hate the idea of Joe Saunders, at this point I'll take him. I won't like it, but I'll take him.

Boom Boom
12-12-2012, 09:04 AM
The "we have to have numbers" part seems to fly in the face of the recent Correia signing. The Twins have numbers, and what's more they can cast some nets for minor league free agents that can "emerge" or "fall by the wayside".

The quantity of pitchers isn't the issue with the Twins. The issue is the quality of those pitchers. How many 4 and 5 starters does a team need?

nicksaviking
12-12-2012, 09:06 AM
Ah, the quantity, not quality approach. Just what winners are made of.

nicksaviking
12-12-2012, 09:11 AM
As much as I hate the idea of Joe Saunders, at this point I'll take him. I won't like it, but I'll take him.

The Twins had a league worst 5.9 K/9 rate last year. The next lowest was the Indians, nearly a full K more per game at 6.78. Looks like the Twins are trying to lower that number by a fair margin. Probably a good idea. It will give the terrible infield plenty of practice at improving their defensive issues.

Brock Beauchamp
12-12-2012, 09:22 AM
As much as I hate the idea of Joe Saunders, at this point I'll take him. I won't like it, but I'll take him.

The Twins had a league worst 5.9 K/9 rate last year. The next lowest was the Indians, nearly a full K more per game at 6.78. Looks like the Twins are trying to lower that number by a fair margin. Probably a good idea. It will give the terrible infield plenty of practive at improving their defensive issues.

Still, if the other option is "nothing", I'll take Saunders.

We all know that shouldn't be the case but even crappy ol' Joe is better than nothing.

Winston Smith
12-12-2012, 09:27 AM
"we have numbers" boy that makes me feel much better about the comng season!

"throw enough mud at the wall some of it will stick" school of general managing got to love it!

nicksaviking
12-12-2012, 09:28 AM
As much as I hate the idea of Joe Saunders, at this point I'll take him. I won't like it, but I'll take him.

The Twins had a league worst 5.9 K/9 rate last year. The next lowest was the Indians, nearly a full K more per game at 6.78. Looks like the Twins are trying to lower that number by a fair margin. Probably a good idea. It will give the terrible infield plenty of practive at improving their defensive issues.

Still, if the other option is "nothing", I'll take Saunders.

We all know that shouldn't be the case but even crappy ol' Joe is better than nothing.

I'd take Saunders over Correia, but I don't want them both at the expense of Gibson or Hendriks, if we're truely going the rebuild route.

Is it too early to DFA Correia?

USAFChief
12-12-2012, 09:35 AM
I sorta felt like Correia was the big FA acquisition when it happened. TR will probably dive lower​ in the dumpster, but I doubt they add another FA that anyone would consider better than him.

johnnydakota
12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
If indeed the twins are having a hard time signing pitchers, will Mr. Ryan concider improving the middle infield ?
If we are truely building towards 2015 which players in our system will emerge as our everyday shortstop?
While starting pitching is our biggest need, we do have several needs to shore up,if you cant fix the rotation maybe we can fix other areas?
Terry missed out on not signing Marcia Izturis the day he filed as a replacement for Casilla,and a posible starting shortstop.
To me there are only 3 candadites avalible now ,Drew, the 30 year old guy from Japan, or the kid from Cuba who will soon hit the free agent market

whydidnt
12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
Of course, based upon Mr. Ryan's track record regarding FA pitchers we really shouldn't be surprised. I'm really starting to wonder if he really is as stubborn about pitching as some of us only thought. It's almost like he brings in guys like Correia, Marquis, Martinez, Ponson, etc. to prove the paying Free Agents doesn't work. It seems he finds joy in being contrary and purposely finding guys with low strike out rates. I may have missed one, but I am pretty sure that Diamond had the lowest K/9 rate among LH qualifiers and Correia had the lowest rate among RH Qualifiers last year. If only we could add a couple more soft tossers to the mix that would solve everything!

Boom Boom
12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
Of course, based upon Mr. Ryan's track record regarding FA pitchers we really shouldn't be surprised. I'm really starting to wonder if he really is as stubborn about pitching as some of us only thought. It's almost like he brings in guys like Correia, Marquis, Martinez, Ponson, etc. to prove the paying Free Agents doesn't work. It seems he finds joy in being contrary and purposely finding guys with low strike out rates. I may have missed one, but I am pretty sure that Diamond had the lowest K/9 rate among LH qualifiers and Correia had the lowest rate among RH Qualifiers last year. If only we could add a couple more soft tossers to the mix that would solve everything!


Conversely, I think he signs these types because he thinks that eventually he'll get a winning lottery ticket and will be hailed as a genius for it.

Big City
12-12-2012, 10:01 AM
If indeed the twins are having a hard time signing pitchers, will Mr. Ryan concider improving the middle infield ?
If we are truely building towards 2015 which players in our system will emerge as our everyday shortstop?
While starting pitching is our biggest need, we do have several needs to shore up,if you cant fix the rotation maybe we can fix other areas?
Terry missed out on not signing Marcia Izturis the day he filed as a replacement for Casilla,and a posible starting shortstop.
To me there are only 3 candadites avalible now ,Drew, the 30 year old guy from Japan, or the kid from Cuba who will soon hit the free agent market

I totally agree with all of this, there is huge demand for SS in MLB, the DBacks just traded one of the best pitching prospects in baseball for a soft-hitting SS Didi Gregorious. If TR can't give money away to SPs then try giving it away to improve our SS. Drew was injured last season and as soon as he proved otherwise he was traded to Oakland and thrust into everyday SS duties for their playoff run which could explain his sub-par batting stats. This actually works in the Twins favor because question marks = less years, less money, and less competition. Plus, if the Twins sign a guy like Drew other FA's take notice, maybe that's enough for Marcum to choose us.

LoganJones
12-12-2012, 10:08 AM
Your first mistake is relying in LaVelle to get Terry to tell him their plan. I think by now people will have realized that the organization has little to no respect for him and do not allow scoops to head his way. It is pretty comical to watch a bunch of entitled fans carping on the big league staff with their fantastic theories.

Every year I wonder, but never bother to research, who were the best free agent acquisitions. These deals usually don't work out, is my feeling on it, but I don't even know how to research it, really.

B Richard
12-12-2012, 10:17 AM
How soon is the earliest we can expect to see a change in GM? That quote is ​ghastly

Shane Wahl
12-12-2012, 10:22 AM
I don't trust LaVelle to know what is going on, honestly, but I don't see what else the Twins could actually be planning. I wish I knew whether or not the Twins were simply not going to get Marcum or Jackson based on the fact that the team has sucked the past two years and those pitchers want to go to a contender. If that is the case, oh well. If not, and if the Twins chose to pay Correia and some other joke like Lannan money instead of further pursuing quality pitching, then something is dramatically wrong with the front office. I have to wonder if the excuse is going to be like last year: "well one good pitcher wasn't going to make us a contender, so we decided not to spend that money" blah blah blah blah.

I say no to Saunders. I would have taken him over nothing before they went out and threw money in the garbage for Correia. Now, they really had better just hold on instead of adding more jokers. I would rather let Hendriks have at it then replace him with Saunders.

nicksaviking
12-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Your first mistake is relying in LaVelle to get Terry to tell him their plan. I think by now people will have realized that the organization has little to no respect for him and do not allow scoops to head his way. It is pretty comical to watch a bunch of entitled fans carping on the big league staff with their fantastic theories.

Every year I wonder, but never bother to research, who were the best free agent acquisitions. These deals usually don't work out, is my feeling on it, but I don't even know how to research it, really.

So you have inside knowledge of the working relationship between the Twins and their beat writer but have zero knowledge of their subjects of discussion?

SweetOne69
12-12-2012, 11:32 AM
The "We have to have the numbers" quote basically means that you have to have enough potential quality pitchers in order to have a backup plan in case you have problems with the planned starting 5. The last 2 years the Twins didn't have any pitchers ready to step in when the Starting 5 failed due to injury or ineffectiveness.

USAFChief
12-12-2012, 11:39 AM
The "We have to have the numbers" quote basically means that you have to have enough potential quality pitchers in order to have a backup plan in case you have problems with the planned starting 5. The last 2 years the Twins didn't have any pitchers ready to step in when the Starting 5 failed due to injury or ineffectiveness.

I'm no GM, but it seems to me it would be wise to worry about the "planned starting 5" before worrying about potential backups.

chagen
12-12-2012, 12:07 PM
I remember this offseason Ron Gardenhire saying we need to sign quality starting pitching. Now listening to Terry Ryan saying we have numbers of starters it's absolutely priceless.

JB_Iowa
12-12-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm no GM, but it seems to me it would be wise to worry about the "planned starting 5" before worrying about potential backups.

Bingo! What hit me yesterday were the comments on the Pirates blog about Correia being fine if you were talking about your 6th or 7th guy for depth but that he shouldn't be part of your "planned 5" as Chief calls them.

He is not only part of Ryan's "planned 5" but I would submit that he is part of Ryan's "planned 3". As I've said elsewhere, I was heartened by the Span and Revere trades. Thus far, I'm disheartened with their planned spending. I would either like to see them acquire a FA starter who would actually be league average or above OR I would like to see them acquire some other pieces that might later be flipped for more prospects (a la Willingham last year although they haven't flipped him yet). So far I just see them spending a bit of money with not very good results. Still in wait and see mode.

ashburyjohn
12-12-2012, 12:27 PM
even crappy ol' Joe is better than nothing.

Why is an ERA+ of 99 over the past four seasons (note that I'm anti-cherry picking by excluding his career year of 2008) crappy? Being league-average is hard to do against very talented competition, and is quite far above replacement level. Joe's no ace, but he can contribute to a winning ballclub, and can help stabilize this one.

USAFChief
12-12-2012, 12:27 PM
So far I just see them spending a bit of money with not very good results. Still in wait and see mode.

I'll get ripped for talking about payroll, but so far I haven't seen them spend even "a bit of money." Basically, they took Span's salary and gave it to Correia. That's not "spending" in my book.

JB_Iowa
12-12-2012, 01:09 PM
I'll get ripped for talking about payroll, but so far I haven't seen them spend even "a bit of money." Basically, they took Span's salary and gave it to Correia. That's not "spending" in my book.

Well, you won't get ripped by me. And I appreciate your observation on "reallocation" rather than "spending".

I hope Jim Crikket is on a nice vacation somewhere because I've really missed him on the Twins recent actions (or lack thereof) -- waiting to see if he has another good rant in him if payroll ends up less than $85m.

sorney
12-12-2012, 01:16 PM
Is it too early to DFA Correia?[/QUOTE]


Just a bit. I would say they have to wait til the end of February, then it's ok.

ScottyB
12-12-2012, 02:13 PM
Have the Twins ever paid more than $9M for a pitcher or $5M for a shortstop (that's another story)? I know they paid Radke $9M and Pavano $8M. I guess my point is they never paid more than $7M to a FA (Willingham). According to a Tom Powers article (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_22170493/tom-powers-twins-coach-delighted-see-live-arms), don't expect TR to spend $10 or $15M on one pitcher, expect him to get 3 for that cost. In other words check the FA starters for a couple more guys who won't deserve more than $2M and give them $5M each, those will be the guys rounding out the rotation in 2013.

Who does that leave (http://transactions.mlbtraderumors.com/widget/free-agent-signings&link=true&widget=true&YEAR=2012&freeAgent_position_Type_ID=9&freeAgent_signingStatus=UN)? Maybe Eric Bedard, Derek Lowe, Kevin Millwood, Jamie Moyer, or Jonathan Sanchez?

SydneyTwinsFan
12-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Didn't they pay Johan 4/30? I can't remember exactly

J-Dog Dungan
12-12-2012, 04:25 PM
The thing is, and this is something that I heard in a discussion on the radio recently that I completely agree with. How many big, free agent deals are realized with the player playing at the same level as previous years over the contract? Not many. Kinda the reason why the Red Sox made that trade with the Dodgers, because they had made some huge signings and none of them were working out. To be honest, the signing of Josh Willingham by the Twins has been probably one of the most underrated and yet one of the biggest FA signings over the last few years with how it went during the first year.

J-Dog Dungan
12-12-2012, 04:25 PM
Didn't they pay Johan 4/30? I can't remember exactly
Maybe, but they first acquired him in the Rule 5 draft.

ScottyB
12-12-2012, 04:32 PM
Didn't they pay Johan 4/30? I can't remember exactly

You're right, that's the highest. Actually they paid him 4/$39M in 2005, so there's your high point, 2007 - $12M before the trade. In 2008 he was scheduled to make $13.25M. When he was traded, the Mets redid his contract and he made $19M fr that season.

Boom Boom
12-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Didn't they pay Johan 4/30? I can't remember exactly
Maybe, but they first acquired him in the Rule 5 draft.

No, they didn't acquire Johan Santana in the Rule 5.

snepp
12-12-2012, 04:41 PM
No, they didn't acquire Johan Santana in the Rule 5.

Hair, consider yourself split.

USAFChief
12-12-2012, 04:49 PM
No, they didn't acquire Johan Santana in the Rule 5.

Hair, consider yourself split.

I'm not sure, but if I recall correctly, by taking Camp and trading him to the Marlins for Santana (instead of just drafting Santana), the Marlins agree to pay the Twins the $50,000 rule 5 fee.

Which isn't significant in any way, but sort of a neat little story, IMO. Santana was not only a rule 5 pick, but a completely free one at that.

snepp
12-12-2012, 05:00 PM
I believe your recollections to be correct.

Kwak
12-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Of course, based upon Mr. Ryan's track record regarding FA pitchers we really shouldn't be surprised. I'm really starting to wonder if he really is as stubborn about pitching as some of us only thought. It's almost like he brings in guys like Correia, Marquis, Martinez, Ponson, etc. to prove the paying Free Agents doesn't work. It seems he finds joy in being contrary and purposely finding guys with low strike out rates. I may have missed one, but I am pretty sure that Diamond had the lowest K/9 rate among LH qualifiers and Correia had the lowest rate among RH Qualifiers last year. If only we could add a couple more soft tossers to the mix that would solve everything!
Ryan is the disciple of PtoC. He definately wants to succeed using "unconventional" philosophy and typically has viewed pitchers as "necessary evils". The Twins do believe in premier closers but are very wary of premier starters because of the cost and risk factors. The Twins do believe that fans are far more likely to view a premier hitter as their favorite than a pitcher. Hitters are viewed as "heroes" (they do "positive" things) and pitchers are "anti-heroes" (the adversary). Hitters tend to play nearly every game, pitchers do not. So they prefer to pay for hitters as opposed to pitchers.

jokin
12-14-2012, 06:53 AM
I don't trust LaVelle to know what is going on, honestly, but I don't see what else the Twins could actually be planning. I wish I knew whether or not the Twins were simply not going to get Marcum or Jackson based on the fact that the team has sucked the past two years and those pitchers want to go to a contender. If that is the case, oh well. If not, and if the Twins chose to pay Correia and some other joke like Lannan money instead of further pursuing quality pitching, then something is dramatically wrong with the front office. I have to wonder if the excuse is going to be like last year: "well one good pitcher wasn't going to make us a contender, so we decided not to spend that money" blah blah blah blah.

I say no to Saunders. I would have taken him over nothing before they went out and threw money in the garbage for Correia. Now, they really had better just hold on instead of adding more jokers. I would rather let Hendriks have at it then replace him with Saunders.

It's a sad state of affairs when the thought of acquiring Saunders is in reality the best move they have left in their quiver. The cold reality is they could easily have a rotation including both Saunders and Hendirks. Combined with Diamond, Correia and Whorley. There's still no guarantee from the club that Gibson is in from Day One. Given the fact that they are punting on 2013 (is there anyone still left arguing otherwise?), there is an argument to be made to bring Gibson back slowly, possibly with a June call-up or relief duty, regradless, they have already strongly voiced favoring limiting of his innings, so why not a start in the bullpen or in Rochester?

jokin
12-14-2012, 06:55 AM
Bingo! What hit me yesterday were the comments on the Pirates blog about Correia being fine if you were talking about your 6th or 7th guy for depth but that he shouldn't be part of your "planned 5" as Chief calls them.

He is not only part of Ryan's "planned 5" but I would submit that he is part of Ryan's "planned 3". As I've said elsewhere, I was heartened by the Span and Revere trades. Thus far, I'm disheartened with their planned spending. I would either like to see them acquire a FA starter who would actually be league average or above OR I would like to see them acquire some other pieces that might later be flipped for more prospects (a la Willingham last year although they haven't flipped him yet). So far I just see them spending a bit of money with not very good results. Still in wait and see mode.

I've been a strong advocate for flipping as the best way to rebuild for years, the Twins are missing multiple opportunities over the last two seasons and this off-season to do as much.

jokin
12-14-2012, 07:01 AM
Well, you won't get ripped by me. And I appreciate your observation on "reallocation" rather than "spending".

I hope Jim Crikket is on a nice vacation somewhere because I've really missed him on the Twins recent actions (or lack thereof) -- waiting to see if he has another good rant in him if payroll ends up less than $85m.

$85M prediction nearly got me tarred and feathered. I'm already rethinking my prediction needs to go lower. When Jim Crikket and the birdwatcher end up engaging in some mutual Twins ripping, I'll know when to recalibrate my final guess.