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View Full Version : Article: Is Lame Duck Gardy Good as Gone?



Nick Nelson
12-12-2012, 12:23 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1251-Is-Lame-Duck-Gardy-Good-as-Gone

Otwins
12-12-2012, 12:51 AM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

h2oface
12-12-2012, 01:01 AM
Gardenhire should have been gone 3 or 4 years ago. He is the guest that stayed way, way too long.

Seth Stohs
12-12-2012, 01:35 AM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.

Top Gun
12-12-2012, 02:53 AM
Gardy could fight his way back, he has dealth with young players before.

Kwak
12-12-2012, 07:05 AM
The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

diehardtwinsfan
12-12-2012, 07:15 AM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.

I'm not sure terrific is the word I'd use to describe him... In some cases, yes... but Gardy has some pretty serious flaws, in particular dealing with rookies and his game management skills... I'm not convinced Gardy would be the right person to develop the young talent that will be hitting the bigs in the next few years.

ChiTownTwinsFan
12-12-2012, 07:36 AM
Who will be next? Bruno? (And don't everyone say Molitor, I think that ship has sailed.) I have to think they already have a plan given the replacement of coaches, no extension, a team that won't be majorly improved next season.

beckmt
12-12-2012, 08:18 AM
I think for Gardy to stay, he had to jettison Rick Anderson and did not want to do it. He has not become a worse manager, just very little talent here and not much for this year. It looks like he is setup to fail.

JB_Iowa
12-12-2012, 08:24 AM
I HOPE that some other team fires its manager early to mid-season and then "lures" Gardenhire away from the Twins. I wish Gardenhire well but I do think its time for a change. And I don't think that it's time for Paul Molitor. I, too, think that ship has sailed.

Boom Boom
12-12-2012, 08:35 AM
I'm going to disagree with most of the sentiment here. TR's recent comments about providing Gardy with personnel seems to indicate to me that Gardy's going to be given the benefit of the doubt (again) regardless of how the team performs this year.

Not offering Gardy a contract extension in this offseason is as close to firing the manager as the Twins will get in my estimation. I predict Gardy will receive at least a 2 year extension after 2013.

old nurse
12-12-2012, 08:45 AM
Gardenhire makes under 2 million a year. If the Pohlads wanted him gone, he would be.

nicksaviking
12-12-2012, 08:46 AM
I'd think Gene Glynn would be first in line. He's being shielded from the MLB mess right now sitting in Rochester. Anyone who comes from TB should get the first interview in my book.

Still, I haven't been a Gardenhire apologist in a long time, but this situtaion is a load of crap. Even though Ryan surely knows the likely disaster that will be 2013 is his fault, not Gardenhire's, Ryan also knows the fan restlessnes is going to cause him to ax the manager. Hopefully smarter minds prevail and the front office is wiped clean if the coaching staff is also taken out, they can start looking for replacements by talking to Glynn's old pals in Tampa.

Texas Mike
12-12-2012, 09:15 AM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.


Absolutely correct. The hyper fan tends to micro-manage every move made and then views in light of their micro-management, which always shades the view towards the negative. When you look at his body of work he is one of the best managers in the game and is highly respected among baseball fans and personnel in other markets. He has not been provided talent the last couple of years and no one could manage that junk. BTW, same thing happens here, many want Ron Washington gone.

gunnarthor
12-12-2012, 09:16 AM
Gardy gets way too much blame from fans. He's a good manager. For whatever reason, fans always complaint that he's not good with young players yet he's often had some of the youngest teams in baseball. He has some issues - I hate the piranha ball that he likes - but I think he's a net positive for the team.

Twins best friend
12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
As much as I've loved watching the Twins in the Gardenhire years, it just has the feel of time to move on. This isn't Gardy's team anymore. Cuddyer's gone, Santana's long gone, Span's gone, Kubel's gone, Morneau will most likely be gone by the end of this year. I want to see what a fresh approach from a new coach can do with what will be a squalling bunch of youngsters coming up from the minors.

Shane Wahl
12-12-2012, 09:59 AM
You know how George W. Bush talked to Americans like they were stupid, but he wasn't actually stupid at all? Is that how Gardy is as well, because he certainly talks to Twins fans like they are stupid.

adjacent
12-12-2012, 10:09 AM
It is a really bad deal for Gardy, but from the institutional point of view, it makes perfect sense. You let the departing manager, take the "give away" season, and bring a new manager for the start of the new era. That is what they did with Tom Kelly as well. When they thought they finally had a team that had a chance, they let Kelly go (well, Kelly retired on his own, but he is not stupid either) and started with a new manager. It is going to be interesting to see what happens at the end of 2013. If Gardy is given a one year extension, then you know the Twins are not going for 2014. If thye start with a new manager in 2014, it is because they think that is the year they can start winning again.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-12-2012, 10:55 AM
I'd be pissed if they fire Gardy

greengoblinrulz
12-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Im not a Gardy guy at all.....but he is getting NO shot to compete this season.
Dont think he's good with young players & after this yr, they will go really young...so its time to move on

tjsyam921
12-12-2012, 11:46 AM
After signing Correia I can't help but think TR is trying time get Gardy to quit knowing it's only a matter of time before he's out with this roster.

ashburyjohn
12-12-2012, 12:06 PM
I'd think Gene Glynn would be first in line.

Glynn seems kind of old to be getting his first major league managing job. I also don't see what's in his resume that someone hiring would find so fascinating. Not saying he'd be bad, just that there's probably 100 other guys just like him and a bit younger so if he succeeds he'll be around a good long while.

ashburyjohn
12-12-2012, 12:08 PM
If thye start with a new manager in 2014, it is because they think that is the year they can start winning again.

I think the brain trust sees 2015 as the first season they'll really contend, but if 2014 is the "turn the corner" season then in your scenario it still makes sense for this to be when to bring in the new guy.

JB_Iowa
12-12-2012, 12:17 PM
I'd think Gene Glynn would be first in line.

Glynn seems kind of old to be getting his first major league managing job. I also don't see what's in his resume that someone hiring would find so fascinating. Not saying he'd be bad, just that there's probably 100 other guys just like him and a bit younger so if he succeeds he'll be around a good long while.

I think Molitor is older than Gardenhire or Glynn (looked this up a while ago and didn't go back today). They are all actually quite similar in age. Yes, Molitor has the HOF credentials but I'm not sure that matters too much in managing -- and he has less recent experience (despite the special instructor role --or whatever it is called).

I'm not advocating for Glynn but I don't think age is a reason to disqualify him.

Riverbrian
12-12-2012, 12:54 PM
I'd guess that this will be his last year with the Twins and I base that guess on the possibility of another losing season.

If the Twins have a winning season in 2013. We very likely will see Gardy in 2014.

ashburyjohn
12-12-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm not advocating for Glynn but I don't think age is a reason to disqualify him.

It doesn't disqualify him, any moreso than being young disqualifies someone, but the usual age for a first managing gig is younger than Glynn is and I am not seeing what makes him the guy who should buck the trend. The upside of going with someone similar but 10 years younger is that if you happen to really click with your pick, you've potentially got him for a couple of decades.

DAM DC Twins Fans
12-12-2012, 01:21 PM
My hunch--Gardy (who is no dummy) knows he is gone...I hope he is looking at other jobs when they do come open and leaves the Twins during the year...our next manager should be younger (born in 1960s) to relate to kids who will be here in 2014 and 2015...that eliminates Molitar, Glynn and Ryno. Brunansky was born in 1960...

Kwak
12-12-2012, 02:03 PM
It seems to me that professional sports team managers (or head coaches if you will) are better suited for certain types of teams: a) seasoned veterans b) up-and-comers c) new-kids-on-the-block etc. Gardy took over a team of up-and-comers and did quite well but when the team change to a different mix, well let's say not so well. The "new Twins" are going to be "new-kids-on-the-block" and I don't think these are the types of players that benefit from a "Gardenhire". The Twins are going to a "new blood" team--so get a new manager, not someone who is a relic from the past who will constantly remark "...we did things ...and won before...". They want someone who will say something like "...forget about the past, and its' losing way, we have new ideas that will put us onto 'winning ways'...", or something like that.

lecroy24fan
12-12-2012, 02:30 PM
I can see something similar to what Tom Kelly did by getting the team turned around, then announcing his retirement.

mike wants wins
12-12-2012, 02:58 PM
While I do not always agree with Gardys tactical decisions, he must do something well because the team has generally been successful with him here. I believe with a bench coach to help temper a few decisions that he can be a successful manager again.

LaBombo
12-12-2012, 03:26 PM
There's no denying the team has had a good run with Gardy as manager. If he gets scapegoated for a lousy 2013, that would be unlike the Twins and also unfair.

That being said, I was hoping the front office would consider going another direction after the Twins once again failed utterly and spectacularly to show up, let alone compete, in the 2010 postseason. Regardless of sample size, being swept three straight times and winning just three games in six series since the 2002 ALDS win is an absolutely dreadful record.

Gardenhire is a good manager, but he's not LaRussa. He's a good guy with an unhealthy fetish for futility infielders, considerable disdain for statistics, and decreasing patience with the kids, which is the thing that seemed to do in TK in the end. I think the thing I'd miss most about Gardenhire would be his relentless pursuit of the AL record for manager ejections, which he's on pace to do in about five more seasons.

jmlease1
12-12-2012, 03:32 PM
I'm be more concerned for Gardy's fate if the Twins didn't have a bunch of young players ready to come through the doors in the next 2-3 years and knowing Gardy's preferences for crappy veterans over young talent. Or his poor game management. Or his poor batting order choices. Or his preference for putting a player's wants over what's best for the team.

Gardy's a good enough manager for a veteran team; his guys play hard for him, he doesn't embarrass the club, and he does a decent enough job with a pitching staff. But is he the guy you want to develop young talent? How much value is he really adding?

Of course, I'm also the guy who believes to this day he had a strong hand in on some of Bill Smith's worse personnel failures and then threw his GM under the bus.

gunnarthor
12-12-2012, 04:24 PM
I'm be more concerned for Gardy's fate if the Twins didn't have a bunch of young players ready to come through the doors in the next 2-3 years and knowing Gardy's preferences for crappy veterans over young talent. Or his poor game management. Or his poor batting order choices. Or his preference for putting a player's wants over what's best for the team.

Gardy's a good enough manager for a veteran team; his guys play hard for him, he doesn't embarrass the club, and he does a decent enough job with a pitching staff. But is he the guy you want to develop young talent? How much value is he really adding?

Of course, I'm also the guy who believes to this day he had a strong hand in on some of Bill Smith's worse personnel failures and then threw his GM under the bus.

Go back and look at the teams he's managed. They are always young. There's this weird fan thought that he can't relate to young players but that's pretty much all he's had. Fans always remember Castro over Bartlett but forget that he rode Boof in 06 or Mijares in Sept 08. Look at all those starts he gave to young pitchers like Baker, Boof, Slowey, Lohse, Liriano, Silva, Santana. The Twins were constantly among the youngest teams in baseball, esp when they were a low payroll club. And under his watch, young guys won two MVPs, two Cy Youngs and the following young guys became all-stars - Guzman, Mays, Milton, Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, AJ and Hunter. And, when given talent, his teams won. I'm not worried about him coaching Hicks or Meyer.

Fire Dan Gladden
12-12-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't believe the W/L record will be the primary factor in whether Gardy comes back. The last few years have seen the Twins go away from what was called the "Twins way". Things we have lost:

good defense
smart base running
small ball execution (ie sacrifices, hit-and-run)

The attention to the little things is what made the Twins way worked. They always played smart, efficient baseball. That has been lost over the last 2-3 years. If we don't see a marked improvement on those things, Gardy will be gone regardless of the record.

JeffB
12-12-2012, 07:23 PM
So, if 2014-17 is the next era in Twins baseball, is Gardy the right guy to lead this incoming crop of rookies? Part of me thinks yes, and part of me thinks no. What do you think?

ThePuck
12-12-2012, 08:34 PM
The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking? Also, they put the playoff record on the players, not Gardy's fault at all...but wait, if he gets credit for the division titles, cause he was a huge factor, why isn't he a huge factor in the playoff losses?

IMO, when looking at the talent he had and comparing it to the talent in the rest of our division, the team winning so may division titles wasn't really an unbeleivable accomplishment. Does he deserve some credit, sure. Did he work miracles? No. He inherited a 2nd place team and the team won three straight titles. They were already on their way. In 2006, he had the CY Young winner, the MVP, the batting champ, a GG CF who hit 30 HR, Cuddyer, knocking in 100+RBI and a top 3 closer. He had the talent. He didn't do a 2012 Buck Showalter

We've won the division twice in the last 6 years...one by winning less games than we did the year before when we didn't win the division, and the other in 2006, when Smith made some good moves to get actual talent in the middle IF. I predicted 94 wins before the season even started , on the Twins story boards, based on the talent we had. The should have won that many that year...and actually, should have won more if not for some bungling lineup moves by Gardy after clinching that took our momentum away going into the playoffs.

He was a pretty good manager when he first started...he really hasn't been that good for quite a few years. 2010 MOY award was a joke...seriously..the job Francona did that year with all those injuries in that division, was way more impressive.

My two cents, not worth much...

ThePuck
12-12-2012, 08:40 PM
At the end of 2011 seasons, Gardy did an interview on ESPN 1500 where he said that players were tuning him out and getting defensive when he talked to them. He even mentioned the players being mad cause he would 'throw them under the bus' to the media. But, he put that on all the players...not anything he was doing wrong, but their issues. Sounds to me like he had lost the team...

ashburyjohn
12-12-2012, 09:32 PM
At the end of 2011 seasons, Gardy did an interview on ESPN 1500 where he said that players were tuning him out and getting defensive when he talked to them. He even mentioned the players being mad cause he would 'throw them under the bus' to the media. But, he put that on all the players...not anything he was doing wrong, but their issues. Sounds to me like he had lost the team...

I think you've put your finger on what is exactly at issue.

one_eyed_jack
12-12-2012, 09:54 PM
I've always been a Gardy supporter. I think he's a damn good manager. Not an all-time great hall-of-fame manager, but a damn good one.

That said, it became pretty clear to me this year that it's time for a change. Seth is right, Gardy hasn't changed, but clearly, his message isn't getting through like it used to.

There was a time when the Twins actually did battle their tails off on a regular basis. It hasn't happened the last 2 years. A staleness has set in. Sometimes when the same voice has been speaking for too long, guys just stop listening. And each new generation of players thinks differently. He doesn't seem to connect with the Pouffes the way he did with the Koskies and Cuddyers.


Maybe that's all just a byproduct of having a bad team that loses a lot. Losing tends to bring out negativity in everyone.

But in any case, rather than make Gardy a lame duck, they should have just ripped off the band-aid, fired him, and started with a new managerial regime.

Gardy would get another job in a heartbeat, and it might be good for him too.

johnnydakota
12-12-2012, 09:57 PM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.

You like the musical chair mix and match, sitting the starters and using 147 different lineups each year?

TheLeviathan
12-12-2012, 09:58 PM
Well, he's not getting much help to turn the tide. That's for sure.

Kwak
12-12-2012, 10:36 PM
Apologies to "William". "We've come to bury 'Gardenhire', not praise him."

LoganJones
12-12-2012, 10:43 PM
I would Imagine that Gardy has been given a short leash to prove he is going to do things differently. He probably admitted to the uppers that he felt he was responsible and was willing to change his approach. If the season starts out the same, and we're seeing the same 'it ain't me' act, he probably will be axed.

CDog
12-12-2012, 11:34 PM
The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

twinsnorth49
12-12-2012, 11:52 PM
I love all this, "he's good with the older guys", "he's no good with the young generation", "he's good with guys who are ready", "he's no good with the up and comers". Good stuff, all hearsay but good stuff. Nobody here knows Gardy's relationship with any of the players, I'm sure over the years he's had his ups and downs with many guys, which have consistently been a mix of young and old alike.

As far as him losing the room, why? Because he reaffirmed in some interviews what everybody saw during a game? Are we talking about how he pointed out the obvious when he referred to how crappy Dozier played some games and that he had to be more consistent? Or when he had the gall to tell everybody that Blackburn just had to bear down and get it done or when he observed that Hendriks had to quit f***ing around and throw goddamn strikes?
I don't think Gardy ever called out a veteran player and those are the guys who you need to worry about when losing a room, not a bunch of players who should thank their lucky stars they're even getting an opportunity and that many people would quickly forget as soon as the door hit them in the ass after they left. If those guys decided it wasn't worth listening to Gardy, then they need re-evaluate their stature in the game and realize how tenuous their hold is on a major league job, especially when they play for the Twins!

The team should be in a position to compete by 2014 and possibly contend by 2015-16, I think they can do that with or without Gardy, I'm fine either way.

beckmt
12-13-2012, 12:18 AM
After a certain time managers, coaches, etc. get tuned out. Some of this can be contributed to the lack of fundamentals being taught in the minor leagues(big Bill Smith issue) and some is the younger guys need a different person to relate to. All in all in comes down to the improvement the Twins show in the next year. Gardy standing behind Rick Anderson probably did not help either.

howeda7
12-13-2012, 12:23 AM
The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

glunn
12-13-2012, 12:32 AM
The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

Good one!

Kwak
12-13-2012, 12:49 AM
The handwriting has been on the wall for some time. In most MLB organizations the GM gets to choose his Field Manager and the Twins need to do the same (similar philosophies and better communications). It was basically announced that Gardenhire is gone when he didn't receive a contract extention--not even a for 1 year! But, I don't think Molitor will be the next manager.

Yeah. Terry Ryan should get to hire his own manager. He shouldn't be saddled with the guy hired by the GM in 2002. That guy was a moron.

Good one!

But the 2012 Gardy isn't the same guy as the 2002 Gardy!

jokin
12-13-2012, 12:55 AM
I was thinking of Gardy when they signed Correia and all I could think of was it's time for Hawk Harrelson - He Gone

That's about right... Gardy has done a terrific job managing the Twins since he started in 2002. He's the same person and the same manager that won an AL Manager of the Year award and finished second five times. But if it's going to be guys like Correia in his rotation or guys like we saw last year, there's not a thing he can do. No manager alive, even Larussa or Maddon could have won with the Twins issues (injury and talent) the last two seasons. It's the way baseball works, and it may be a change for change sake is good, but it won't be because Gardy suddenly became a bad manager.


Absolutely correct. The hyper fan tends to micro-manage every move made and then views in light of their micro-management, which always shades the view towards the negative. When you look at his body of work he is one of the best managers in the game and is highly respected among baseball fans and personnel in other markets. He has not been provided talent the last couple of years and no one could manage that junk. BTW, same thing happens here, many want Ron Washington gone.

The problem with this analysis about "Good Guy" Gardy forget or neglect to mention that his fingerprints are on many of the disatrous personnel moves that were made which have led to this decline- Lohse, Garza, Hardy, lovin' himself a bevy of pitch-to-contact rag arms and below-replacement level infielders that resembled himself.....the list could go on.

jokin
12-13-2012, 12:59 AM
After a certain time managers, coaches, etc. get tuned out. Some of this can be contributed to the lack of fundamentals being taught in the minor leagues(big Bill Smith issue) and some is the younger guys need a different person to relate to. All in all in comes down to the improvement the Twins show in the next year. Gardy standing behind Rick Anderson probably did not help either.

Cronyism is the downfall of many once-proud organizations, this org is still rife with drinking-buddies and untouchables (Bill Smith must be some kind of marketing genius or savant-level bean counter to have been retained after arguably has to be one of the worst GM tenures in MLB history).

jokin
12-13-2012, 01:02 AM
Well, he's not getting much help to turn the tide. That's for sure.

What's for sure in my mind is that this is a Bay of Fundy-Tide-level set-up. Gone by All-Star break.

Top Gun
12-13-2012, 01:17 AM
I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

jokin
12-13-2012, 01:19 AM
It seems to me that professional sports team managers (or head coaches if you will) are better suited for certain types of teams: a) seasoned veterans b) up-and-comers c) new-kids-on-the-block etc. Gardy took over a team of up-and-comers and did quite well but when the team change to a different mix, well let's say not so well. The "new Twins" are going to be "new-kids-on-the-block" and I don't think these are the types of players that benefit from a "Gardenhire". The Twins are going to a "new blood" team--so get a new manager, not someone who is a relic from the past who will constantly remark "...we did things ...and won before...". They want someone who will say something like "...forget about the past, and its' losing way, we have new ideas that will put us onto 'winning ways'...", or something like that.

There's good reason Shakespeare's quote, "Past is Prologue", has remained embedded in the English language.

For evidence of the next hire, look at the 2 previous hires. This is how it is most likely to happen, a former journeyman, brief-playing member of the Twins, who began his coaching career in the Twins minor league system, working his way to the big club.

Kelly came in in 1986 at age 36 and Gardenhire came in in 2002 at age 44.

Even Ray Miller, Pohlad's first newly-hired manager, fits most of the description. Journeyman minor league player, hired at age 40.

The Twins would seem to want and need to hire a guy who is much closer in age to the kiddie corp which is about to be hitting the big league club en masse in 2014-15.

Now start lining up the suspect list, it isn't too extensive.

Mike Redmond would fit the bill perfectly (age 41).

Top Gun
12-13-2012, 01:23 AM
I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 07:53 AM
The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 07:54 AM
The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking?

Yes. Where in the world are all these Gardy supporters that "always say" that they had little to no talent?

All over the place. I've been having regular discussion on the Twins story boards and message boards at MLB dot com for years and years and there have been many over the years that can't blame Gardy for anything. They have said stuff like that. It's never his fault. I don't make stuff up, these are conversations had.

gunnarthor
12-13-2012, 08:16 AM
The Gardy supporters always say, look at what he was able to do all those years with little to no talent. Now they say, what do you expect him to do with so little to no talent? Anyone see a problem with that line of thinking? Also, they put the playoff record on the players, not Gardy's fault at all...but wait, if he gets credit for the division titles, cause he was a huge factor, why isn't he a huge factor in the playoff losses?

IMO, when looking at the talent he had and comparing it to the talent in the rest of our division, the team winning so may division titles wasn't really an unbeleivable accomplishment. Does he deserve some credit, sure. Did he work miracles? No. He inherited a 2nd place team and the team won three straight titles. They were already on their way. In 2006, he had the CY Young winner, the MVP, the batting champ, a GG CF who hit 30 HR, Cuddyer, knocking in 100+RBI and a top 3 closer. He had the talent. He didn't do a 2012 Buck Showalter

We've won the division twice in the last 6 years...one by winning less games than we did the year before when we didn't win the division, and the other in 2006, when Smith made some good moves to get actual talent in the middle IF. I predicted 94 wins before the season even started , on the Twins story boards, based on the talent we had. The should have won that many that year...and actually, should have won more if not for some bungling lineup moves by Gardy after clinching that took our momentum away going into the playoffs.

He was a pretty good manager when he first started...he really hasn't been that good for quite a few years. 2010 MOY award was a joke...seriously..the job Francona did that year with all those injuries in that division, was way more impressive.

My two cents, not worth much...

The Gardy haters always say, "look at all that talent, he should've won more." Now that he has no talent they say, "why isn't he winning more?" Anyone see a problem with this line of thinking? He gets no credit for the division titles, since he was only competing against the AL Central but he gets the blame for losing in the first round (quick fact, the Twins avg 92 wins when they lost in the first round, their opponents avg 101 regular season wins. But, yeah, playoffs are a crap shoot). :banghead:

He was given all this young talent that turned itself into Cy Young winners and MVPs but he can't handle young players. Did you see how he managed one group of young players and then the nucleus completely changed? And those young guys still won? We can't have that kind of track record around more young guys. We should hire Molitor b/c, even though he's failed in his few coaching attempts, he's a winner and that'll rub off on those young guys.

He didn't win nearly enough after Santana and Hunter left. He had to play a lineup that heavily featured Young and Gomez and he only made it 163 games and he lost to a team with twice the payroll. What a crock. Then his 2010 team makes it to the playoffs with 100m contract (sure, maybe 25m was on the DL at the time of the playoffs but other managers dealt with injuries and didn't make the playoffs. Those were the good managers. I mean, look, they had to play the AL East and we know that makes things harder. We don't have to concern ourselves with payroll or money spent on draftees/development. Twins and Red Sox were the same except one team played the Yankees more and we played KC.

Gardy has Machiavellian powers! Look at the players that he ran out of town. He hated Garza so he made sure he was traded for nothing. He hated Lohse, most of whose best seasons happened to come in MN. He never gave Humber a chance and he threw a perfect game. And Slowey! For the love all that was holy, Slowey! Slowey could read books and Gardy hated that. He never gave him a chance. But he has gay sex with Punto and Blackburn so they get to stay. Gardy haters are turning into birthers.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 09:39 AM
The truth is somewhere in the middle...

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 09:40 AM
The truth is somewhere in the middle...I have criticized him on some things and I have defended him on others...case by case basis

johnnydakota
12-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Is Little Nicky Punto returning to the Gardy party ,For the farewell tour?

Top Gun
12-13-2012, 10:02 AM
According to FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal, the Dodgers are likely to trade infielders Nick Punto and Juan Uribe.

Skip Schumaker was acquired via trade from the Cardinals on Wednesday afternoon and is expected to share time at second base next year with Mark Ellis. That doesn't leave much room for Punto, who is also behind Hanley Ramirez, Dee Gordon and Justin Sellers on the depth chart at shortstop. Uribe, meanwhile, has posted a wretched .199/.262/.289 batting line over the past two seasons. The Dodgers might as well just cut him.
Related: Juan Uribe (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/mlb/3242/juan-uribe)

Source: FOX Sports (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/punto_uribe_could_be_on_way_out_with_dodgers/12427324?new_post=true)

jmlease1
12-13-2012, 10:44 AM
Gardy did run Garza & JJ Hardy out of town. He's not responsible for the terrible return, but he is the guy who didn't want the SS who could hit for power and played good defense because he wasn't fast enough.

Gardy's the guy who played Revere in RF, Span in CF, and Willingham in LF because it was where the veterans Span & Willingham liked to play, despite it being blindingly obvious that the best defensive alignment for the team was Span in LF, Revere in CF, and Willingham in RF.

Gardy's the guy whose batting order has been baffling, playing no-hit guys in the 2-hole because they had "speed" or just played 2B.

Gardy's the guy who gets kicked out of games because he can't control himself.

Look, he's not a BAD manager. But he's not a great one either. And he doesn't seem to be adding a lot of value to the club.

chagen
12-13-2012, 10:59 AM
I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

Couldn't agree more Pohlad would be #1 on my list

chagen
12-13-2012, 11:02 AM
I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

Couldn't agree more especially Pohlad!

CDog
12-13-2012, 11:14 AM
Gardy did run Garza & JJ Hardy out of town. He's not responsible for the terrible return, but he is the guy who didn't want the SS who could hit for power and played good defense because he wasn't fast enough.

Gardy's the guy who played Revere in RF, Span in CF, and Willingham in LF because it was where the veterans Span & Willingham liked to play, despite it being blindingly obvious that the best defensive alignment for the team was Span in LF, Revere in CF, and Willingham in RF.

Gardy's the guy whose batting order has been baffling, playing no-hit guys in the 2-hole because they had "speed" or just played 2B.

Gardy's the guy who gets kicked out of games because he can't control himself.

Look, he's not a BAD manager. But he's not a great one either. And he doesn't seem to be adding a lot of value to the club.

When your top four knocks against him range from "speculation" to "pure fiction," I'd say that's actually a pretty ringing endorsement.

gunnarthor
12-13-2012, 11:21 AM
When your top four knocks against him range from "speculation" to "pure fiction," I'd say that's actually a pretty ringing endorsement.

Well said.

crarko
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
I would rather see Ryan and Pohlad gone.

Couldn't agree more Pohlad would be #1 on my list


Well, come up with the dough and make them an offer.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 12:56 PM
When your top four knocks against him range from "speculation" to "pure fiction," I'd say that's actually a pretty ringing endorsement.

Gardenhire reiterated what he and Smith have continually said this winter in that Casilla will get an opportunity to compete for one of the starting middle-infield jobs, even if Hardy remains in the mix. And while Casilla can also play both positions, Gardenhire indicated that he prefers him at shortstop.


"I have always said, for me, I think he moved really well at shortstop," Gardenhire said, "I think he's very acrobatic. I think he's very athletic. He can go get the ball and throw from all kinds of angles. I think he's comfortable coming in and getting the ball rather than waiting on it.''

'The Twins have said throughout the offseason that one of their goals has been to add speed to their lineup, and the one area where they felt they could do that was in the middle infield. '

In speaking about the trade yesterday general manager Bill Smith made it very clear (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101208&content_id=16284958&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb) that the move was made largely because Ron Gardenhire wants to add more speed to the lineup and Hardy, despite his excellent range defensively, is one of the slowest shortstops in baseball.

CDog
12-13-2012, 01:53 PM
Gardenhire reiterated what he and Smith have continually said this winter in that Casilla will get an opportunity to compete for one of the starting middle-infield jobs, even if Hardy remains in the mix. And while Casilla can also play both positions, Gardenhire indicated that he prefers him at shortstop.


"I have always said, for me, I think he moved really well at shortstop," Gardenhire said, "I think he's very acrobatic. I think he's very athletic. He can go get the ball and throw from all kinds of angles. I think he's comfortable coming in and getting the ball rather than waiting on it.''

'The Twins have said throughout the offseason that one of their goals has been to add speed to their lineup, and the one area where they felt they could do that was in the middle infield. '

In speaking about the trade yesterday general manager Bill Smith made it very clear (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101208&content_id=16284958&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb) that the move was made largely because Ron Gardenhire wants to add more speed to the lineup and Hardy, despite his excellent range defensively, is one of the slowest shortstops in baseball.

JJ Hardy home runs in 2009 and 2010: 17...combined. SLG in 2009: 0.357 (average was 0.418). SLG in 2010: 0.394 (average was 0.403). ISO in 2009: 0.128 (average was 0.155). ISO in 2010: 0.126 (average was 0.145). Would you like to point out that sometimes a 2B has batted second so that naturally means they batted there "just because" of it? Cuz that would be a good play here, too...I guess.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 01:59 PM
JJ Hardy home runs in 2009 and 2010: 17...combined. SLG in 2009: 0.357 (average was 0.418). SLG in 2010: 0.394 (average was 0.403). ISO in 2009: 0.128 (average was 0.155). ISO in 2010: 0.126 (average was 0.145). Would you like to point out that sometimes a 2B has batted second so that naturally means they batted there "just because" of it? Cuz that would be a good play here, too...I guess.

Why is everyone so eager to jump on someone around here...hold carp. All I did was provide some info to suggest Gardy did have quite a bit to say about Hardy being traded. Does what I provided suggest he did? Isn't the point of disccsuion an attempt to get to the truth, or is it more important to be right?

CDog
12-13-2012, 02:06 PM
Why is everyone so eager to jump on someone around here...hold carp. All I did was provide some info to suggest Gardy did have quite a bit to say about Hardy being traded. Does what I provided suggest he did? Isn't the point of disccsuion an attempt to get to the truth, or is it more important to be right?

What you did is try to show that the sliver of truth was true, while ignoring the part that was garbage. That's also a fancy way of exaggerating, fabricating, lying...whichever floats your boat.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 02:13 PM
What you did is try to show that the sliver of truth was true, while ignoring the part that was garbage. That's also a fancy way of exaggerating, fabricating, lying...whichever floats your boat.

I provided information from the Twins News site concerning one part the list. That's all I did. I never said everything the original poster wrote was true, I just felt that one part was true based on what I had read and I shared the info I had. If you feel, after reading that, that Gardy didn't have a big hand in Hardy being moved, fine; however, assuming I was exaggerating, lying or whatever, that's crap.

CDog
12-13-2012, 02:23 PM
I provided information from the Twins News site concerning one part the list. That's all I did. I never said everything the original poster wrote was true, I just felt that one part was true based on what I had read and I shared the info I had. If you feel, after reading that, that Gardy didn't have a big hand in Hardy being moved, fine; however, assuming I was exaggerating, lying or whatever, that's crap.

Good work.

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 07:38 AM
Just to be clear, it wasn't ME you were calling a shameless, full-time Twins apologist, right? :-)

jokin
12-14-2012, 07:54 AM
Just to be clear, it wasn't ME you were calling a shameless, full-time Twins apologist, right? :-)

Nope.

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 07:56 AM
Is there a Gardy Apologist Club or something? Get Togethers... Meetings... Membership Dues... If so... Why haven't I been invited or asked to contribute?

USAFChief
12-14-2012, 08:59 AM
JJ Hardy home runs in 2009 and 2010: 17...combined. SLG in 2009: 0.357 (average was 0.418). SLG in 2010: 0.394 (average was 0.403). ISO in 2009: 0.128 (average was 0.155). ISO in 2010: 0.126 (average was 0.145). Would you like to point out that sometimes a 2B has batted second so that naturally means they batted there "just because" of it? Cuz that would be a good play here, too...I guess.

We wouldn't be moving the goalposts now would we?

CDog
12-14-2012, 09:48 AM
We wouldn't be moving the goalposts now would we?

No. Hardy hadn't shown the power in 2009 and 2010 that he has shown since. Implying that he had just isn't true.

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 09:57 AM
No. Hardy hadn't shown the power in 2009 and 2010 that he has shown since. Implying that he had just isn't true.

For the record, I never mentioned the power part...the debate between you and I was only about whether or not Gardy had a big role in why Hardy was traded. I won't pretend to know the real reason why Gardy wanted him gone.

But if we can put that aside, once Hardy got healthy (occurring in the 2nd half of 2010), he posted a slash line of .304/.363/.442. From a shortstop, that's pretty impressive. Wouldn't it have made sense to see what he had the following year since he wasn't due a big raise in arbitration anyway

CDog
12-14-2012, 10:07 AM
For the record, I never mentioned the power part...the debate between you and I was only about whether or not Gardy had a big role in why Hardy was traded. I won't pretend to know the real reason why Gardy wanted him gone.

But if we can put that aside, once Hardy got healthy (occurring in the 2nd half of 2010), he posted a slash line of .304/.363/.442. From a shortstop, that's pretty impressive. Wouldn't it have made sense to see what he had the following year since he wasn't due a big raise in arbitration anyway

More or less agree. I was perplexed at the time, and really disappointed in what they got back (which I doubt Gardenhire had anything to do with, btw). Even in the moment, it was one of my least liked personnel moves. And that's without using hindsight to shift around the reasons for it at the time as was done (not by you).

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 10:09 AM
More or less agree. I was perplexed at the time, and really disappointed in what they got back (which I doubt Gardenhire had anything to do with, btw). Even in the moment, it was one of my least liked personnel moves. And that's without using hindsight to shift around the reasons for it at the time as was done (not by you).

I was giddy when we got him and royally ticked when he was traded. :-)

Heck, even in an injury year with us, he posted the best UZR/150 of any starting shortstop. Have always loved his defense

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 11:06 AM
Myself... I was pissed that we gave up Gomez for Hardy and I still am today to a certain degree... I felt that Gomez was up with the big club too early. Gomez has all the tools to be a superstar... He just needed his head to catch up. That was my feeling at the time. He hasn't gone nuts yet but I still think he can. Last year... He started to show it a little. Let's see what he does this year.

At the time of the Hardy trade to Baltimore... I was hopeful that the pitchers we got back were worth something and also hopeful that this Nishioka guy was gonna be as advertised. In hindsight... Neither the pitchers or Nishioka were close to MLB capable and it ended up being a huge mistake.

In the end... I think it has been two wrongs making it all wronger.

As a pure guess... I think Gardenhire has huge influence on the roster. Gomez... Hardy... all of them...

He's the Manager and he works with the players everyday. What a ****ty job if you are not consulted at all when it comes to shaping the roster you are supposed to manage. There are probably times when Gardy disagrees with moves and times when Gardy was the spark that lit the fire. I'm sure Gardy is allowed in the meetings and his wishes considered.

A Manager (in my imagination) is just another part of the filtering process or another tool (not meant as the negative version of tool) that the GM has in front of him. I think it's entirely possible that when Terry Ryan stepped down. Mr. Smith tried to serve Gardy more than Terry Ryan did or would and the team lost some balance in the decision making process. That's just a guess...

I'm under the impression rightly or wrongly that the combination of Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire was pretty good and the combination of Bill Smith and Ron Gardenhire was not.

Anyway, we all mistakes and in the end you gotta try something to get better and sometimes it doesn't work out... Hindsight is an unfair advantage to those who judge.

In the End... The Teams performance will determine if they are getting the job done. It's my opinion that it's too soon to hang TR since he has come back because the organization is a really big boat and turning it around on a dime is impossible...

Also in my opinion Gardy is coming close to the time where replacing him is a consideration but his success prior should not be overlooked because I do believe that Gardy had a role in where we were and where we are.

USAFChief
12-14-2012, 11:25 AM
Hindsight is an unfair advantage to those who judge.

I hate this excuse.

Many people at the time of the Hardy trade: "What the heck is Smith DOING? Ridiculously stupid."

A few: "Just wait and see. Hardy wasn't any good, need years to evaluate a trade, blah blah blah."

Later, said many people: "See, the Hardy trade was ridiculously stupid."

A few: "Hindsight!"

mike wants wins
12-14-2012, 11:31 AM
There was a huge population ripping the Hardy trade when it was made....it is unfair to classify it all as hindsight. Just as there is a huge disagreement with signings made so far this year.

CDog
12-14-2012, 11:48 AM
Wasn't saying the trade was only bad in hindsight (as already pointed out). Was pointing out the power angle wasn't what is being claimed now. That's not the same. And probably got under my skin because of the common insinuation that "they" would actually prefer a player NOT to have power. That part is probably on me for letting an "outer voice" (or whatever the terminology used on this site in a really good article) influence me a bit too much.

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 01:31 PM
I used the Term hindsight and I'll stand by it. It doesn't apply to everyone in all cases but it does apply often enough to be valid.

I was using my thoughts with my application of the word hindsight as it applies to me. In hindsight,,, I still think I was right On the Gomez Trade and obviously wrong with my lack of concern over the Hardy to Baltimore trade but I'm not going to use my thoughts at the time in hindsight to vilify or praise the decision makers. Every GM has made a bad trade or bad signing. I don't expect perfection because I've never met anyone who is perfect.

To clarify... I'm not going to throw Bill Smith into the fire for a single trade... I will throw Bill Smith into the fire for the totality of what happened to my Twins during his tenure. The lack of harvest we are reaping now and he was the final say... The King of the filter... Ultimately... The blame truly rests at Pohlads feet. Because the owner hires the people who hire the people and bringing Terry Ryan back is an attempt to correct that mistake in my opinion.

There are a lot of people employed in the Twins front office... They are not just cardboard cutouts... They are employed for a reason. I don't know who supports each decision and I don't who is in opposition of each decision... but Im pretty sure... Much like Twins Daily... Very rarely would the entire front office agree 100 percent... 100 percent of the time. Things just don't happen that easy in life. I can't get my wife to agree with me that the Ground Round would be a great place to eat tonight when she wants to go to Applebee's.

There are times when John Bonnes and Seth Stohs disagree or Nick or Parker or Brock... At least I think so... All want the team to get better and looking at how things turned out in hindsight isn't worth much because if John was right this time.. He may be wrong the next time.

The bottom line is that we are in last place... Things went wrong... Bill Smith was removed as GM in an organization that hadnt done a lot of removing period. It appears from the outside that Bill Smith has been held responsoble... Now it has to be cleaned up and fixed.

Gardy was the manager during this period so I'm pretty sure that he was a big part of this downturn. Either by making bad suggestions or by lacking the salesmanship to sell Bill Smith and others in the room on the right direction... the GM filter got clogged in my opinion.. I don't know how or why but it did and Gardy can't totally escape blame because Im pretty sure he was in the room. It would be strange if he wasn't.

Yet I still think Gardy and Ryan have been good together... In hindsight... I may be wrong.

CDog
12-14-2012, 02:11 PM
I can't get my wife to agree with me that the Ground Round would be a great place to eat tonight when she wants to go to Applebee's.

North Dakota makes me sad.

(Settle down, folks...just a joke. Probably.)

Riverbrian
12-14-2012, 02:20 PM
North Dakota makes me sad.

(Settle down, folks...just a joke. Probably.)

lol... It was just for example purposes... we do have other restaurants in North Dakota...

Like... Buffalo Wild wings... Arby's... Hardees... Texas Roadhouse... McDonalds... Burger King... Ruby Tuesday... IHOP... Perkins... Subway... Quizno's and a Truck stop.

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 02:33 PM
I love the Ground Round...especially on Fridays...free all you can eat wings, trivia contest, and drink specials. All this went on for like 2 1/2 hours. Used to be a regular start to the weekend in the late 90s-early 00s

jmlease1
12-14-2012, 04:09 PM
When your top four knocks against him range from "speculation" to "pure fiction," I'd say that's actually a pretty ringing endorsement.

Well, TPuck took care of the Hardy stuff, so no further comment needed from me.

Regarding the OF alignment, Gardy was quoted in spring training about Willingham being more comfortable in LF. And we're all in agreement that Revere is a superior CF to Span defensively, right? Span's better arm doesn't make up for Revere's better range. Throw in Span's success as a LF in the Dome, the relatively spacious LF in Target Field and the fact that Willingham is the Butcher of Cairo no matter which OF position he plays at times...I think I've got a fair point on this one, not a fictional one. (I can't find it right now, but I swear I recall Gardy being quoted as saying Span was going to play CF because he liked it better there, but whether this was in the last year I don't know)

We have had terrible production from the #2 spot in the batting order in recent years, and there have been better options available. Now, with Span leading off, Jamey Carroll isn't unreasonable; the career OBP is there. Casilla is a bigger reach; the .330 OBP years are marginally acceptable, the .280 years are NOT. Or the Nishioka or whomever else experiments, especially when you have on-base machine Joe Mauer sitting right there. Does he have to hit 3rd because he's won a batting title?

I'll admit freely it's speculation on my part that Gardy gets himself kicked out because he can't control himself, but it's sure what it looks like to me. When he's screaming at an umpire and there isn't a Twins player within 30 feet of them, it's not protecting a player. It doesn't get you any advantage the rest of the game with the umpire; having refereed for years I can tell you that a coach going berserk in your face doesn't help that guy's cause. Much easier to write him off as a lunatic. The guys who calmly told me about a specific thing they wanted looked at were a lot easier to take seriously. Save the screaming for when you're trying to keep your player from getting thrown out.

You might weight this stuff differently than me. That's fine. But I don't think I'm making stuff up here. And it's not my only problem with Gardenhire, who has been almost immune to criticism over the years, and I question the validity of that.

Kwak
12-14-2012, 05:09 PM
Uh, no we're not all in agreement that Revere was a better CF. Span's positioning and his initial read made up for being slightly less faster than Revere. {I have this sense posters equate Revere with Usian Bolt and every other Twins' OF ranges from snail to turtle--Span is fast!}
Gardenhire badly underestimated Kubel's ability and marginalized him to the point that the Twins made the Tampa trade. The Santana trade and accepting the "package from the Mets"--has Gardenhire's input all over it. Combine that with the immediate promotion of Gomez over Span in the "famous" 2008 Spring Training CF competition--yeah, more Gardenhire. But to mee his biggest sin was the inclusion of Radke in the 2006 playoff roster and its rotation. Radke was injured and was no longer the pitcher he was. To claim "loyalty" was a slap in the face of everyone else who busted their tail to make the 2006 team a division winner. It is incumbent to put the best 9 on the field in the playoffs and Radke (sadly) was no longer in that category. Garza (he took over for Liriano in the OAK game when his tendon broke) pitched very well against the A's, demonstrating that he was up to the task of pitching against them. He should have been on the playoff roster as a minimum, and given the team's starting pitching needs (there were many) probably should have started Game 3. But loyalty to Radke--yikes!

ThePuck
12-14-2012, 05:15 PM
'Uh, no we're not all in agreement that Revere was a better CF. Span's positioning and his initial read made up for being slightly less faster than Revere. {I have this sense posters equate Revere with Usian Bolt and every other Twins' OF ranges from snail to turtle--Span is fast!}'

Bravo! Span was rated as the 3rd best defensive CF in the game this year, yet people act like he's pedestrian. After watching Span play CF this year and Revere last year in place of injured Span, I say Span is the better CF. Many of Revere's 'great' plays were only made great by him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with and taking bad routes. Not saying Revere isn't a very good defender...got better this year for sure...but Span is better. Span just isn't as flashy.

As far as the rest of the post...I agree with some of it, some other stuff not so much. For example, while I do belief the 2008 ST battle for CF was a farce, I think management told Gardy, you are gonna play Gomez in CF. (because of the Santana trade...saving face). You know me, I'm no Gardy backer, but I think in that instance, his hands were tied. I also don't think he wanted Santana gone

Kwak
12-14-2012, 09:18 PM
I wasn't implying that Gardenhire was in favor of trading Santana, but rather he was strongly in favor of the Mets package as opposed to the competing packages from Boston and NY. He was "drooling" about Gomez, and others the "pitching prospects". True, if those guys had all panned-out--Oh my, the Twins would have been so much stronger and would not be in the position they are now!

diehardtwinsfan
12-15-2012, 07:57 AM
I often find that people who use the term "hindsight is 20/20" often lack foresight. The Hardy trade was pretty obviously bad to a number of people, and yes Gardenhire had his hands all over it. I agree he isn't responsible for the return, but dragging the guy through the mud didn't exactly give Smith leverage either. Gardy didn't have the leverage on the organization in 2002 that he has today... and is a problem as well.

I tend to think Gardy needs to go. He's never been good with the kids, and his game management skills (or lack thereof) are well known. He won't be fired, he just won't be extended. This is probably the most honorable way to do this. The Twins are going to need someone capable of developing young talent (like a Joe Madden), not someone whose first tendancy is to plug in some crappy veteran over that rookie who will make mistakes.

one_eyed_jack
12-15-2012, 09:14 AM
All of those ripping Gardy's game management - you do realize that almost any other manager would make the same moves Gardy does about 99.4% of the time, yes?

Sure, you have a few outliers like Maddon who go against conventional wisdom and do some unusual things.

But if it's Gardy's decision-making that gets to you, prepare yourself to be disappointed by his replacement, because it's highly unlikely that he'll do anything substantially different in that area.

I think the 20/20 hindsight argument applies here more than it does to trades. A manager makes thousands of decisions over the course of a 162-game season. Even if he's right 90% of the time, which is insanely high, that's still a lot of times where he's wrong. You try to make decisions that give your team the best chance to win, but inevitably, you'll be wrong sometimes.

When you follow a team closely, those decisions that didn't turn out well tend to stick with you. And because your exposure to other managers is more limited, you don't tend to see that they make the same types of decisions Gardy does.

I remember going on a Tigers site a couple of years ago, and the forum was filled with anti-Leyland posts, some even complained specifically about him getting consistently out-managed by Gardy.