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View Full Version : Article: Correia Signing is a Sad Thing



Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 01:08 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1245-Correia-Signing-is-a-Sad-Thing

Shane Wahl
12-11-2012, 01:16 AM
"This is one of the most outrageous contracts in an offseason that's been full of them. It's too bad the Twins had to be the ones to sign it. They'd have been better off adding that $10 million on top of an offer to a pitcher who could actually make a difference."

That's the crucial thing right there. And I have a hard time believing that the extra money thrown at Shaun Marcum wouldn't have been enticing enough.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 01:33 AM
Why the rush to sign him? All the rest spoken for? It seams there is alot of better pitchers lookin for jobs. Who recommend him?

ScottyB
12-11-2012, 04:49 AM
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but the Twins would have been better off just announcing that Blackie was the next addition to the rotation. Correia is Marquis Lite and belongs in the NL. I actually believe that I have as good a shot succeeding in the rotation as a 57 year-old, overweight slob with a 48 mph fastball.

That being said, I'm feeling a whiplash from all of the good feelings that TR built up with the trades of Span and Revere, to the venom now spewing on the guy. I'm sorry that TR wasted money on Correia, but if you were a major league pitcher would you want to come here right now? Every FA starter is being overpaid, there is no question about that. Unfortunately Nick, I'm afraid that if we offered Sanchez his 6/$90M request and we were the only ones to offer that much, we'd be turned down. The same goes for Jackson, Marcum or any of the other decent options out there.

This contract reeks of desperation - this a warm body for the rotation for 2013, possibly the only one willing to sign here. TR is desperate to fill a rotation, but we probably would have been better off with a trade of Willingham and Morneau for another Worley type pitcher, and just turn the outfield over to the kiddie corps (Arcia, Hicks and Benson with Parmelee at 1B). Throw in the towel for 2013 and build for the future.

SDTwinsFan
12-11-2012, 05:45 AM
What kills me is that this $5 million will hamper free agency again next year. I don't care what the payroll number is to an extent, but you gotta be smarter with your contracts than this! I was just thinking about how the Twins will drop Blackburn's wasted contract next offseason and now they add another!

i guess I was hoping that even if the Twins didn't sign a big name like Marcum (was never hoping for a Greinke/Haren type) they would at least avoid crap signings like this and grab some upside with a Jurrjens/Gorelanny/Karstens or just roll with any number of replacement types they already have (Deduno, Devries, etc). You can't convince me that some pitchers wouldn't jump at the chance to play in Minnesota because they would know they have a big pitcher-friendly ballpark and no other pitchers to take their rotation spot....

old nurse
12-11-2012, 06:13 AM
People will have to realize the top tier free agents all had the same words for the Twins,
"No, thanks" even at any price. Winning draws talent.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:43 AM
I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.

sorney
12-11-2012, 07:12 AM
I don't agree with the signing at all....but seriously, if they are having that much trouble attracting pitchers, why not just go 1 year 8 million?!?! Or something like that? Why compound the mistake by giving him 2 years? It makes zero sense to me

Gernzy
12-11-2012, 07:35 AM
If we don't sign Marcum, or at least someone else decent, this is going to be sad.
Maybe if we have $20 million extra we'll shock everyone and sign Sanchez or Hamilton.

whosafraidofluigirussolo
12-11-2012, 07:53 AM
Either that Ryan actually believes a player with these attributes is worth jumping on when there are plenty of other names on the board, or that he is having so little luck attracting free agents of any caliber that he felt the need to lock up the first offer that someone – anyone – finally accepted. The GM may have feared that if he didn't act on an opportunity, he might be left with nothing.

This is where I feel like a GM has to be willing to take risk, in the form of being patient and waiting on the market. There will be pitchers of this ability level on the market in January and February and some of them will take one-year contracts.

kirbyelway
12-11-2012, 08:04 AM
I'd rather give this guy $10 for 2 then do what the Royals did for Guthrie.

Kwak
12-11-2012, 08:14 AM
Losing and penury gets this as a result. During the stretches of winning, the Twins never got out of character to step-up and sign an upper-tier player. That reputation has come back to bite them.

mnfanforlife
12-11-2012, 08:20 AM
I completely agree that this signing is a sad, sad deal. Not looking forward to another Jason Marquis debacle.. Woof!

mnfanforlife
12-11-2012, 08:28 AM
I would rather roll with these four guys (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/mnfanforlife/2198-turn-nba.html), than Correia or others like him.

jokin
12-11-2012, 08:28 AM
I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.

I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 08:31 AM
I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.

I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.

Nick has never been afraid to take issue with the front office. He, like me, prefers to wait until they actually do something before complaining about theoreticals.

And this was a bad move. Unfortunate, given that Ryan had just made one good move and one stellar move in the previous two weeks.

jokin
12-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Losing and penury gets this as a result. During the stretches of winning, the Twins never got out of character to step-up and sign an upper-tier player. That reputation has come back to bite them.

This is not a penurious team any longer. They promised things would change with Target Field and they can pay to play if they chose to do so.

jokin
12-11-2012, 08:35 AM
I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.

I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.

Nick has never been afraid to take issue with the front office. He, like me, prefers to wait until they actually do something before complaining about theoreticals.

And this was a bad move. Unfortunate, given that Ryan had just made one good move and one stellar move in the previous two weeks.

It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.

gunnarthor
12-11-2012, 08:36 AM
Man, hard to like this move. I think criticism of Ryan has always been that he's unwilling to give long contracts to FA, especially pitchers. We knew this when he came back. Twins are going to have to get better through their farm system.

I also want to know how much payroll is limited by the Pohlads and how much is it Ryan's preference not to spend.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 08:39 AM
In Terry we trust?

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 08:44 AM
It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.

Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.

gunnarthor
12-11-2012, 08:56 AM
It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.

Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ryan isn't willing to give the years to guys like Dempster, Marcum etc. The annual salary probably isn't a problem.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 08:59 AM
Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 09:10 AM
It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.

Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ryan isn't willing to give the years to guys like Dempster, Marcum etc. The annual salary probably isn't a problem.

Then he's not going to get a pitcher to improve the team. That's all there is to it. In this market, you can't be afraid of a three year contract or you're not going to get anyone. And given that the Twins' payroll will actually decrease next season after Morneau is gone, it's not as if a 3 year deal is going to kill the franchise.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 09:12 AM
Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?

Surprisingly, only 12 of those strikeouts came against pitchers.

Even pitchers can make contact on this guy.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 09:14 AM
Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?

Surprisingly, only 12 of those strikeouts came against pitchers.

Even pitchers can make contact on this guy.

So he strikes out batters 1-8 about as much as he strikes out pitchers...oh goody

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 09:14 AM
Pitches to contact...ERA over 4.20 in the NL last year...very low strikeout rate, WHIP of almost 1.300. Hasn't have a good season since 2009 (where he pitched in the NL and in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball).


Will fit right in.


This is more like the Terry Ryan we know and...well...

Willihammer
12-11-2012, 09:17 AM
I don't mean to step on your guys' work here, and I'll pull down the post if you want. But it is appropriate to the discussion I think:

From John's interview in the handbook


JB: So you’re looking to add a top of the rotation,
maybe not a number 1 guy, but maybe a number two
guy or a top half of the rotation?
TR: We’ll see. We’ll figure out how many years he’s
looking for and how many dollars they want to get.
JB: Are you willing to give multi-year deals to pitchers?
TR: You aren’t going to get a pitcher unless you give a
multi-year deal.
JB: OK. So you’re comfortable with multi-year deals,
too.
TR: How many multi-years are you looking at?
JB: Right…
TR: Are you looking at eight? I’m not.
JB: Probably not looking for eight?
TR: You’re not and I’m not.
JB: No?
TR: No. It just depends. Age, experience, health history,
mechanics, success, change in league.
JB: It sounds like you’re sitting back and seeing what in
the market comes to you, as opposed to aggressively
chasing a couple of targets.
TR: If I do that, we’ll probably be holding the bag. You
know pitching is going to go off the board. We certainly
have to be looking at it.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 09:19 AM
I notice that a lot of people seem to have this idea that they feel is fact. That idea being no pitcher wants to come play here.

So many people seem to want to, in a roundabout way, defend signings like this by saying (as if it's 100% fact) that no one else wants to come here so that's the best he can do. Twins just started losing. They aren't perennial doormats. Pitchers aren't coming here because Ryan doesn't value them enough to pay what the market has become, not because Minnesota is the leper colony of the US.

Most of the time, a players signs where they get the most money.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 09:25 AM
I don't mean to step on your guys' work here, and I'll pull down the post if you want. But it is appropriate to the discussion I think:

From John's interview in the handbook


JB: So you’re looking to add a top of the rotation,
maybe not a number 1 guy, but maybe a number two
guy or a top half of the rotation?
TR: We’ll see. We’ll figure out how many years he’s
looking for and how many dollars they want to get.
JB: Are you willing to give multi-year deals to pitchers?
TR: You aren’t going to get a pitcher unless you give a
multi-year deal.
JB: OK. So you’re comfortable with multi-year deals,
too.
TR: How many multi-years are you looking at?
JB: Right…
TR: Are you looking at eight? I’m not.
JB: Probably not looking for eight?
TR: You’re not and I’m not.
JB: No?
TR: No. It just depends. Age, experience, health history,
mechanics, success, change in league.
JB: It sounds like you’re sitting back and seeing what in
the market comes to you, as opposed to aggressively
chasing a couple of targets.
TR: If I do that, we’ll probably be holding the bag. You
know pitching is going to go off the board. We certainly
have to be looking at it.

That's fine with me. Just so long as you don't post a substantial portion of the interview (say, a page), I'm cool with posting fragments relevant to the conversation at hand.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 09:31 AM
This deal doesn't magically get better if they sign Sanchez. No amount of makeup fixes this pig. They dumped 5 mil this year on a backend NL starter with no upside and tremendous downside. They even managed to foolishly commit another 5 mil to next years payroll for this garbage. It is a bad contract to a bad player, no subsequent moves will fix that.

Funny to hear the tune change here. Pretty much everything I said in the wake of the Baker deal has proven to be spot on. This article should taste like an awful lot of crow for many around here. The myths of this offseason turning this team into a contender are coming to fruition in exactly the wayreasonable minds would expect. Good trades though - that's our JR!

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 09:39 AM
Lowest strikeout rate among right-handed pitchers the last two years. (per Gleeman)

Kobs
12-11-2012, 09:42 AM
I don't know what you guys are so upset about, the Twins just nabbed an All-Star pitcher!

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm not going to get to worked up about it. 5 million dollars a year is something you can swallow even if he does suck. I'd much rather see them do this then overpay out the ass for Ryan Dumpster.

Let's see who else he brings in this off-season before we call for his head, both of his trades so far have been great and his signings last off-season were all pretty good as well (sans Marquis- who btw actually preformed very well once he left the Twins)

As long as we can get a Jackson/Marcum/Sanchez to add onto this, I won't be to upset about Correia slotting in the 5 spot.

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 09:48 AM
This deal doesn't magically get better if they sign Sanchez. No amount of makeup fixes this pig. They dumped 5 mil this year on a backend NL starter with no upside and tremendous downside. They even managed to foolishly commit another 5 mil to next years payroll for this garbage. It is a bad contract to a bad player, no subsequent moves will fix that.

Funny to hear the tune change here. Pretty much everything I said in the wake of the Baker deal has proven to be spot on. This article should taste like an awful lot of crow for many around here. The myths of this offseason turning this team into a contender are coming to fruition in exactly the way reasonable minds would expect. Good trades though - that's our JR!

"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill.

Congratulations.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 09:50 AM
Signing a good pitcher would be a good thing, but that does not make signing this guy a good thing. It is a bad signing, especially for a budget conscious team.

kdag23
12-11-2012, 09:56 AM
To me it feels like a Jason Marquis deal. So, the Twins are going to have a rotation made up of guys that are no better than #3 on most other rosters in the league...again?

This signing irks me considering that KC just signed James Shields. K f******C! The Twins don't have the pieces to do something like that - to sign someone who could actually be a legitimate #1?

I got to thinking about Torii Hunter's comments a few seasons ago when talking about the Twins: "Sometimes I think they have that small mind over there, in that organization."

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 09:57 AM
To me it feels like a Jason Marquis deal. So, the Twins are going to have a rotation made up of guys that are no better than #3 on most other rosters in the league...again?

This signing irks me considering that KC just signed James Shields. K f******C! The Twins don't have the pieces to do something like that - to sign someone who could actually be a legitimate #1?

I got to thinking about Torii Hunter's comments a few seasons ago when talking about the Twins: "Sometimes I think they have that small mind over there, in that organization."

The Royals didn't sign James Shields, they traded the best hitting prospect in baseball to get him....

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 09:58 AM
If Correia is a three, this is an awesome deal. He is not even a five. He is one of the three worst starters in baseball the last two years.

Big City
12-11-2012, 09:59 AM
I'm not going to totally rip this deal because in my estimation the Twins needed 1 back of the rotation SP to fill the gap until Gibson was ready. I may have preferred Brett Myers because we could have moved him back to the bullpen but then we'd be paying a reliever around $7mil/year for 2-3 years. If you look at the short-term, low money SP options you have names like Liriano, Jurrjens, Bedard, Braden, Garcia, Harden, Pavano, Pinero, etc. The other option would have been just using Deduno or DeVries as the #5. So, considering those options I'd actally trust in TR's scouting in finding the best of available option which in this case is Correia.

Now, let's see where we go from here, we still need a top (near top) of the rotation SP and a middle infielder and the two I'd prefer are Marcum and Drew. If TR can't lure in any of these caliber players then we may as well trade Willingham and Morneau. I'm interested to see what happens with Seattle. They've been attached to every free agent hitter but so far have struck out. If Seattle misses out on Hamilton and Swisher how much do you think they'd offer for Willingham, Carroll, and Morneau?

rogrulz30
12-11-2012, 10:00 AM
Signing correira isn't the end of the world for the twins, at 5 million a year isn't going to make or break anything, reality is we need to get a rotation in place, I m going to b the only person who doesn't mind this pick up. My guess is the hope he pitches well enough to make another trade for another prospect anyway. If u look at our rotation we now are 3/5 of the way there, and we can still have competition for the blackies, dedunos, devries, and hendriks guys. I have no issues with this move!! There is still time to get Villanueva, Marcum, if we don't move on them, it will really b a long year

Knotholemike
12-11-2012, 10:10 AM
"They'd have been better off adding that $10 million on top of an offer to a pitcher who could actually make a difference."

Or banking it until a better pitcher came along either next year during the trade deadline or in free agency. Tying up this money impairs flexibility needed at a later date. What if for some reason a couple of young Twins blossom and the team is in contention next year except you need to add another starter because Correia and Worley can't cut it. I can hear Ryan now: "We do not have the payroll flexibility to add a premier starting pitcher."

Kwak
12-11-2012, 10:53 AM
I'm not going to totally rip this deal because in my estimation the Twins needed 1 back of the rotation SP to fill the gap until Gibson was ready. I may have preferred Brett Myers because we could have moved him back to the bullpen but then we'd be paying a reliever around $7mil/year for 2-3 years. If you look at the short-term, low money SP options you have names like Liriano, Jurrjens, Bedard, Braden, Garcia, Harden, Pavano, Pinero, etc. The other option would have been just using Deduno or DeVries as the #5. So, considering those options I'd actally trust in TR's scouting in finding the best of available option which in this case is Correia.

Now, let's see where we go from here, we still need a top (near top) of the rotation SP and a middle infielder and the two I'd prefer are Marcum and Drew. If TR can't lure in any of these caliber players then we may as well trade Willingham and Morneau. I'm interested to see what happens with Seattle. They've been attached to every free agent hitter but so far have struck out. If Seattle misses out on Hamilton and Swisher how much do you think they'd offer for Willingham, Carroll, and Morneau?

Exactly! Several teams will have pencilled-in the same top FA in their line-up--all but one of them will go into scramble mode to get the "best Plan B". In another forum it was posted the Twins aren't planning to trade Morneau until July. Baloney! If they are talking about trading him in July, they are thinking seriously about trading him now. The Twins are just waiting for the shoe(s) to drop and then wait for the phone to ring concerning Morneau. I do think he will get traded before the season starts, maybe as late as March, but nonetheless traded. The earlier the better return. A solid middle-of-the-rotation guy in MLB is a #1 here--and there will be more than just one guy coming!

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-11-2012, 11:00 AM
In Terry we trust?

Corriea was probably like you do know im a crappy pitcher right Terry, so lets go 1 year 3 million, and Terry goes hey i have an even better idea....2 years 10 million! Im Terry Ryan?

Blake
12-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Maybe this is a trade deadline signing? Correia has an okay year, the Twins are out of contention by the end of April, I mean, June, another team in contention needs someone to fill a hole in the rotation and the Twins move Correia. (Yeah, I know, I'm reaching)

Blake
12-11-2012, 11:12 AM
On another note, if you're a decent pitcher, would you really want to pitch for a team with a suspect defense? As of right now, the infield defense is marginal and the only known quantity in the outfield is Willingham and Willingham is not exactly web gem material.

PopRiveter
12-11-2012, 11:31 AM
A quick review of his career stats have me convinced not to offer him $10 million of my dollars.
Yeah, this one is disappointing.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 11:39 AM
''We want the kind of pitchers we haven't had enough of," Twins assistant general manager Rob Antony said. "Pitchers who can miss bats."

SweetOne69
12-11-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm not going to totally rip this deal because in my estimation the Twins needed 1 back of the rotation SP to fill the gap until Gibson was ready. I may have preferred Brett Myers because we could have moved him back to the bullpen but then we'd be paying a reliever around $7mil/year for 2-3 years. If you look at the short-term, low money SP options you have names like Liriano, Jurrjens, Bedard, Braden, Garcia, Harden, Pavano, Pinero, etc. The other option would have been just using Deduno or DeVries as the #5. So, considering those options I'd actally trust in TR's scouting in finding the best of available option which in this case is Correia.

Now, let's see where we go from here, we still need a top (near top) of the rotation SP and a middle infielder and the two I'd prefer are Marcum and Drew. If TR can't lure in any of these caliber players then we may as well trade Willingham and Morneau. I'm interested to see what happens with Seattle. They've been attached to every free agent hitter but so far have struck out. If Seattle misses out on Hamilton and Swisher how much do you think they'd offer for Willingham, Carroll, and Morneau?

Your argument doesn't fly.

First you should sign from the top down. Get the best pitcher you can first and then use what money you have left for the back end of the rotation.

Next Players like Correia could be signed in late January or February, there is no rush to sign him.

3rd, he is not significantly better than the likes of Deduno, DeVries and Walter who we already have for 1/10 of the price.

Before this signing we had 2 #3's penciled into the rotation with Worley and Diamond.

Gibson is a potential #2 but he is a rookie, returning from TJ surgery and will be on a innings limit in 2013.

We have a plethora of back end arms with Deduno, DeVries, Walters, Hendricks and Blackurn.

What we need is a veteran top of the rotation guy. While I wouldn't sign a pitcher to more than 4 years, there are several pitchers that are could be had for 3 or 4 years that fit our needs.

PopRiveter
12-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Turns out it's a pretty good year to only be "sorta bad" at playing baseball.

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Really good writeup and I agree on virtually every assessment of Correia's pedestrian numbers and back-of-the-rotation stuff. But I just can't go all the way towards saying this is an "outrageous" contract. It isn't. For anyone to say that they're surprised the Twins would overpay for decidedly mediocre pitchers given what happened in 2012 is like missing the forest because of all the trees in the way. The Twins would have KILLED for a proven 4th or 5th starter midway through last season. Heck, that's exactly what Scott Diamond is, but fans here are so beaten down that they think he can be a legitimate "ace".

Just because we had more money than we though did not suddenly mean TR was going to completely reverse the same philosophy he's had and been up-front about for over a decade - this team will NOT pay money for free agent pitching. Not even "Josh Willingham" money. And frankly, unless it's an opportunity to lock up a top starter, I'm not sure I blame them on this one. If Guthrie is a $25 million pitcher, Shaun Marcum is looking at closer to Anibal Sanchez money.

Also, the argument that the Twins have "reverted" back to pitch-to-contact because they sign one filler SP is wrong. Just because you want power arms doesn't mean you go out and "buy high" on established ones in an open market. The fact that the Twins would even acquire guys like Meyer and May (with their potential control problems) to me signals a sea change by this organization. This is a two-year deal for really not all that much money. Yes, I'm having nightmares about fly balls dropping all over our terrible defensive outfield, but I wasn't under the illusion the Twins were in a position to be major players in the FA starting pitching market.

old nurse
12-11-2012, 11:46 AM
I cannot think of a high profile free agent pitcher that has ever signed with a team that has lost as much as the Twins have the last few years. Ryan signed a warm body more than likely because he had few options. It is not like Ryan can sell someone that the Twin's offense is great. Their best chance would be overspending on someone's last contract. That leaves Dempster.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 11:48 AM
Funny to hear the tune change here. Pretty much everything I said in the wake of the Baker deal has proven to be spot on. This article should taste like an awful lot of crow for many around here. The myths of this offseason turning this team into a contender are coming to fruition in exactly the wayreasonable minds would expect. Good trades though - that's our JR!

I think most of us were hoping for – rather than expecting – good moves to be made that would set this club on the right course short-term. Is that so unreasonable? Ryan's made some good trades and made some good FA signings last year, but for whatever reason he simply cannot make it happen with decent free agent pitchers. Even with money to burn.

But yes, your pessimistic outlook has proven fitting at this point. Looks like they'll be pretty bad next year. You must be very happy.


I'm not going to get to worked up about it. 5 million dollars a year is something you can swallow even if he does suck. I'd much rather see them do this then overpay out the ass for Ryan Dumpster.

Why? If you're going to sign a free agent, why not make it count? Dempster probably won't be a great value over the life of the contract but at least he is good. The Twins can afford to sign someone like that. And of course, there were plenty of guys out there other than Dempster. Maybe there are more moves left to come but that still wouldn't excuse this one.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Oh its a bad signing, but it's not anything they can't overcome. 2/10 is a pretty harmless contract at the end of the day, Ryan certainly needs to make some "better" signings though before the season.

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 11:53 AM
''We want the kind of pitchers we haven't had enough of," Twins assistant general manager Rob Antony said. "Pitchers who can miss bats."
What this whole reminds me of is the mid-2000's when everyone was getting fed up with "piranha" baseball, and would just automatically rip every guy we were interested in that didn't have 30 HR power. Just because you have a general organizational problem (lack of power hitters, no power arms, etc.) doesn't mean that EVERY move you make needs to directly address that issue.

What we found out last year was that in addition to not having elite #1 or #2 starting pitchers, we also had an alarming lack of even those guys that could fill out a rotation without getting absolutely slaughtered. There's this idea floating out there that the Twins just spent all their "Shaun Marcum money" on another scrub pitcher. That's absurd. We spent a modest amount of money on a guy who isn't all that good, but frankly, could have been a #2 starter on this team last year. Given the alternative between sitting on an extra $5 million next year, or adding "another guy" to take the place of DeVries, Walters, Blackburn, or Deduno...it's a net positive for me as a fan to add Correia. Just not much of a positive.

S.
12-11-2012, 11:55 AM
As if having Correia on your team isn't bad enough, we had to give the guy a 2 year deal? For $10M? When we already have a handful of league minimum guys who can put up the same type of numbers? Christ. Someone punch me in the face, because that sounds like a lot more fun than watching Correia get starts for 2 years. And just think, if Blackburn puts up some almost, not quite, halfway terrible numbers in AAA, we just might get the pleasure of seeing Correia and Blackburn together in our rotation in 2013! While it may not strike fear into opponents, it certainly will generate plenty of terror for the fans.

jboshe4
12-11-2012, 12:00 PM
This is what I didn't want them to do. If they weren't going to get one of the top few guys, which was obvious that wouldn't happen, then just do nothing and let our own junk in our system fill in the extra spots.

2013 means nothing. Unless we are actually getting something of value I want to keep as much money possible off the books (i.e. this 5 mil.) for next off season when hopefully the FA pool isn't so weak. Even getting something like a Marcum at this years inflated rates isn't all that enticing to me.

As Nick pointed out, hopefully this isn't a case of mgmt. thinking they got something of value. I don't think that's really the case, but I'm at a bit of a loss at the reasoning behind this one. Might just be a move to show the fan base that they did "something" other than bring back the leagues worst rotation for another run.

notoriousgod71
12-11-2012, 12:12 PM
Maybe this is a trade deadline signing? Correia has an okay year, the Twins are out of contention by the end of April, I mean, June, another team in contention needs someone to fill a hole in the rotation and the Twins move Correia. (Yeah, I know, I'm reaching)

Who the hell would trade for Correia? JR can't trade to himself.

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:16 PM
agreed, does terry ryan not know the difference between an asset and a retread?
with lim ited funds he just threw away 20-25% of our resourceson nothing,last month i said i believed once terry was done signing pitchers we would wish jason marquis was back with us...prove me wrong terry please prove me wrong

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Money simply isn't enough to lure prime talent to a team that's lost 95+. Personally, I'm not that bent outta shape about it. In this new drug free era of baseball, you cant invest big money in 30 something starters and expect an even modest return. You have to get young pitching, harness it while their healthy, and let someone else make the mistake of overpaying for past accomplishments. How much of Greinke's contract, will he actually earn? What did we really lose when we traded Johan Santana? About 1 and a half seasons of decent, not elite pitching, which the Mets are still paying for. In the mean while, we need somebody, anybody, to at least hold down a spot, until the prospects are ready.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Just because you have a general organizational problem (lack of power hitters, no power arms, etc.) doesn't mean that EVERY move you make needs to directly address that issue.

Worley doesn't address that need either...and you didn't see me slamming him. In any event, we haven't addressed that need, at all...not for the present at least

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:22 PM
A rotation of Correia, Diamond, Vanimal, and whoever, looks slightly better than, Diamond, Vanimal, and whoever. Besides, How many of our pitchers threw over 150+ innings last year? 200+ might be nice, but I'll take 179 too.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:24 PM
Money simply isn't enough to lure prime talent to a team that's lost 95+. Personally, I'm not that bent outta shape about it. In this new drug free era of baseball, you cant invest big money in 30 something starters and expect an even modest return. You have to get young pitching, harness it while their healthy, and let someone else make the mistake of overpaying for past accomplishments. How much of Greinke's contract, will he actually earn? What did we really lose when we traded Johan Santana? About 1 and a half seasons of decent, not elite pitching, which the Mets are still paying for. In the mean while, we need somebody, anybody, to at least hold down a spot, until the prospects are ready.

Johan's first year with the Mets he led the majors in ERA and quality starts while leading the NL in IP (3rd in the majors). His next year he had an ERA of 3.19 and the next year he had an ERA of 2.98

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:25 PM
It does make me wonder what Lannan, Liriano, and Saunders will be worth. My Guess is 7-9 mil, each.

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I stand corrected sir. Most kind

JB_Iowa
12-11-2012, 12:27 PM
Question; is it just the 95 losses that makes it difficult to lure pitchers? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson is the Twins pitching coach? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson MAY only be the pitching coach for 2013 and that Ron Gardenhire MAY only be the manager for 2013? What effect does the organization's prior pitching philosophy have (and is that philosophy gone)? What effect does the organization's historical stinginess on free agent pitching (and, for that matter, on extensions) have?

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:28 PM
Question; is it just the 95 losses that makes it difficult to lure pitchers? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson is the Twins pitching coach? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson MAY only be the pitching coach for 2013 and that Ron Gardenhire MAY only be the manager for 2013? What effect does the organization's prior pitching philosophy have (and is that philosophy gone)? What effect does the organization's historical stinginess on free agent pitching (and, for that matter, on extensions) have?

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:29 PM
All though he only reached 200+ innings only the first year, and further clogged up the Mets payroll situation.

Boom Boom
12-11-2012, 12:33 PM
Maybe Correia can post better numbers with Butera as his personal catcher.

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:34 PM
These pitcher are free agents. They can play wherever they choose. There are many teams with needs for pitching, and hope for immediate success. You probably could overpay for a pitcher like Shaun Marcum or Anibal Sanchez, but then the question becomes, Are we a Marcum or Sanchez away from being a contender now?

biffman77
12-11-2012, 12:39 PM
I'm just waiting for the Liriano news.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 12:43 PM
But you are not adding Sanchez or Marcum for 1 year....so the questions are....do you punt on 2012....do you believe you can sign anyone this year that will help in 1 or 2 years.....signing guys is not about only next year.

old nurse
12-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Question; is it just the 95 losses that makes it difficult to lure pitchers? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson is the Twins pitching coach? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson MAY only be the pitching coach for 2013 and that Ron Gardenhire MAY only be the manager for 2013? What effect does the organization's prior pitching philosophy have (and is that philosophy gone)? What effect does the organization's historical stinginess on free agent pitching (and, for that matter, on extensions) have?

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:46 PM
Are we a Marcum or Sanchez away from being a contender now?

Then why even get Corriea...I mean, seriously. Why? Not being a jerk, just wondering. This move doesn't get us any better, so why make it. If we're not going to even attempt to be respectable, why even make this move...and for two years

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 12:49 PM
2013 The worst twins team ever.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:51 PM
Question; is it just the 95 losses that makes it difficult to lure pitchers? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson is the Twins pitching coach? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson MAY only be the pitching coach for 2013 and that Ron Gardenhire MAY only be the manager for 2013? What effect does the organization's prior pitching philosophy have (and is that philosophy gone)? What effect does the organization's historical stinginess on free agent pitching (and, for that matter, on extensions) have?

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

I was adding in another possible factor to his list...since it does seem MOST players go where they get paid the most.

To answer your statement, most of the teams willing to spend a good chunk on free agents aren't usually in last place...cause they get the talent. So even if it's never happened, it doesn't prove anything.

Ultima Ratio
12-11-2012, 01:00 PM
Kevin Correia, Twins agree to terms - Bucs Dugout (http://www.bucsdugout.com/2012/12/10/3753368/kevin-correia-twins-agree-to-terms)

What the one Pirates Blog is saying. In short, they (we, cause I'm a Pittsburger) don't get the money or the years -- the whole signing really.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Question; is it just the 95 losses that makes it difficult to lure pitchers? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson is the Twins pitching coach? What effect (if any) does it have that Rick Anderson MAY only be the pitching coach for 2013 and that Ron Gardenhire MAY only be the manager for 2013? What effect does the organization's prior pitching philosophy have (and is that philosophy gone)? What effect does the organization's historical stinginess on free agent pitching (and, for that matter, on extensions) have?

I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

The Rockies signed Jeff Francis for $1.5 million and only had to give him 1 year. That signing would have only been mildly annoying, not upsetting like this two-year slap in the face. The other bottom feeders haven't done anything, just as Ryan shouldn't have unless he was going after a top of the rotation arm.

chagen
12-11-2012, 01:20 PM
We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

CDog
12-11-2012, 01:45 PM
We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

How many starts do you suppose Shields will make for the Tigers this year?

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 01:47 PM
Kevin Correia, Twins agree to terms - Bucs Dugout (http://www.bucsdugout.com/2012/12/10/3753368/kevin-correia-twins-agree-to-terms)

What the one Pirates Blog is saying. In short, they (we, cause I'm a Pittsburger) don't get the money or the years -- the whole signing really.
Interesting. I do like getting out of the Minnesota Bubble for some outside perspective on our moves. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Pirates should be throwing stones, since they handed (at least) $15 million to Jose Tabata before they realized he doesn't even belong in the majors right now.

I'm just not really sure what people expected to happen. If they were going to find someone to take only one year, it probably be in January or February after the market is REALLY picked over and the only guys left are even worse than Correia.

I mean, some people liked Joe Blanton. I really liked Brandon McCarthy, but if you follow him (or his wife) on Twitter, these people are human beings. Not only are they driven by the most years and most money they can get (which probably wouldn't be the Twins), but they might value playing for a team that isn't one of the worst in the MLB. Or they may have family/personal reasons for preferring one market over another (McCarthy's wife was an Arizona grad). So just because the numbers weren't that far off doesn't mean any particular team was actually "close" to signing some other guy you wanted.

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 01:48 PM
We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

Do you wish we had just traded Miguel Sano, Kyle Gibson, That Lefty LaVele Likes and the AFL surprise kid? Would that make you excited for James Shields?

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 01:49 PM
We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

How many starts do you suppose Shields will make for the Tigers this year?

I think he was just making the point that the Tigers were willing to get Shields even though they have a pretty darn good rotation. Much like they spent $200 million+ on Prince to address a one-year need due to the loss of V-Mart, and required them to move Cabrera to 3B.

I assume he knows that Shields was ultimately traded to KC.

old nurse
12-11-2012, 01:51 PM
I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

I was adding in another possible factor to his list...since it does seem MOST players go where they get paid the most.

To answer your statement, most of the teams willing to spend a good chunk on free agents aren't usually in last place...cause they get the talent. So even if it's never happened, it doesn't prove anything.

Your assumption that the Twins have never made the best offer has no proof. Logic might be escaping you. Unless there is an overwhelmingly better offer and the team has drastically overpaid, or no one else wants you, why would you go to a losing small market, low media team? . There is nothing in the Twins offense or defense right now that would suggest to a pitcher that you are going to catch a break and thus have a poor record. Less money and a better record might net a bigger contract the next time. You so want to believe the Twins do not make competitive offers that it blinds you to all other possibilities. You also ignore the simple fact that playing on a losing team sucks so why would I want to go to a losing team? A big pile of money to hate life?

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 01:52 PM
We get Kevin Correia and i hear the Tigers were trying to get James Shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up Kevin Correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.

Do you wish we had just traded Miguel Sano, Kyle Gibson, That Lefty LaVele Likes and the AFL surprise kid? Would that make you excited for James Shields?
The KC deal is atrocious. It's pretty clear that Twins fans view free agent money like Monopoly money, and don't want to hear excuses as to why we shouldn't buy our way out of giant holes every year. But I extremely happy that TR was willing to trade two major league CF's for some decent upside, as opposed to identifying a "surplus" in minor league outfielders and shipping off someone like Hicks or Arcia for a 30-year old starter.

Wil Myers may be twice as good as Sano will ever be. Who knows. To give him up in a deal like that just because they're bored with having blue chip prospects come up to the bigs and turn out to be more mediocre than expected (Gordon, Moustakas, Hosmer, etc.)...well, it's a joke.

chagen
12-11-2012, 01:59 PM
That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

CDog
12-11-2012, 02:06 PM
That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 02:12 PM
Of course they are trying to acquire quality arms. The going rate for 1 Win pitchers is apparently 5 Mil a year. Dan Haren was a 1.8 Win pitcher last year and got 13 Million. I'm sure the Twins could have signed Correia (.9 win) to a 1 year deal for roughly 6.5-7 Million. He gave a per year discount in exchange for a little annual security. Plus: is this deal even official?

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 02:14 PM
Kevin Correia, Twins agree to terms - Bucs Dugout (http://www.bucsdugout.com/2012/12/10/3753368/kevin-correia-twins-agree-to-terms)

What the one Pirates Blog is saying. In short, they (we, cause I'm a Pittsburger) don't get the money or the years -- the whole signing really.
I'm just not really sure what people expected to happen. If they were going to find someone to take only one year, it probably be in January or February after the market is REALLY picked over and the only guys left are even worse than Correia.


I doubt it, there are always stragglers that haven't been signed and latch on for a team friendly deal come February. Those pitchers are of the same caliber as Correia. These threads are going to resurface again in two months when other teams are signing the Randy Wolf's, Carl Pavano's and Mike Pelfry's for $1-$5 million on 1 year deals.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 02:24 PM
That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

old nurse
12-11-2012, 02:28 PM
OMG The Royals signed Sherrill, Wheeler, and Tavares. The Twins are doomed.

Rick Blaine
12-11-2012, 02:31 PM
Look at it this way--- Kevin Correia's 162 game average would have made him SECOND in starts, wins, innings pitched and strikeouts on the 2012 Twins team.

Hopefully Ryan has more in store. I think Correia is (will be) better than Pavano, Liriano, or Blackburn. What did we pay those three last year? His signing probably signals those three are not coming back--- so be happy:)

Winston Smith
12-11-2012, 02:32 PM
It's just lucky TR tied him up before he signed in Japan.

CDog
12-11-2012, 02:33 PM
That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

Methinks you missed my point.

Rick Blaine
12-11-2012, 02:37 PM
OMG The Royals signed Sherrill, Wheeler, and Tavares. The Twins are doomed.

Would you even want those three?? Sherrill and Wheeler are has beens and Tavares has been out of the majors for over two years. If Ryan signed any one of those three-- he would be crucified on this site.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 02:47 PM
I think you missed the sarcasm, Rick.

savvyspy
12-11-2012, 02:52 PM
He's the NL Nick Blackburn

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 02:52 PM
If you believe La Velle E Neal,

Which I don't.

the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

Or the reporters aren't trying as hard / making up rumors. Seriously. It takes a special kind of myopia to honestly think the Twins didn't send their offers on to each and every one of the pitchers whose agent would take their calls. What's in it for the Twins to bust a bunch of dollars over what they see as fair value for any of these guys? A few less grumpy tweets and message board posts? They know what they value these guys at, and right now, these guys think they're worth more and plan on getting it. Most likely, the hang ups are not even about dollars/years. More like opt-outs, no trade clauses and option years. Just look at the ridiculous terms on Greinke's deal. In order to keep the no trade off the books he got an opt-out in case he gets all cy-youngy again and wants to grab even more dollars. But if he stinks? Dodgers won't be able to trade him and he'll be Barry Zitoing his way through all that cash.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 02:53 PM
That's exactly the point are we trying to acquire quality arms? I know Jame Shields ended up in kc

So your point was to come and make a bs argument that the Twins wouldn't like to have Shields pitch for them? To make the garbage insinuation that Correia is the only move the Twins have made or will make? To further some ridiculous notion that not winning a World Series is a complete failure? Is that about right? The Tigers tried to get Shields just as hard as the Twins tried to get Haren or McCarthy or ... well, Shields, if you want to play that game.

The Twins likely will make another move, though this one is a bad omen. If you believe La Velle E Neal, the Twins actually never made an attempt to sign McCarthy. There were never any reports that they made a play for Haren either. They could have traded for him, giving up peanuts likely, had they been willing to pay him $13 million. On the other hand, the Tigers actually DID make a strong effort to trade for Shields.

I agree that Correia was surely not a top target, but obviously the Twins are not trying as hard as other clubs to sign/trade for some of these big names. We DO hear reports the Twins have been tied to Correia, Liriano, Lannan and Myers. We DON'T hear reports they are tied to Sanchez, Marcum, Jackson or Lohse.

Methinks you missed my point.

Did I? I highlighted the areas of my previous post that I thought addressed your point. If they are off base, I apologize.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 02:53 PM
I don't think its JUST the 95 losses that make pitchers reluctant to sign in Minnesota. Gut feeling is that there's a whole slew of factors at play but that's all it is, a gut feeling.

And one of those factors could be...Twins don't make the best offer...

Name one higher profile pitcher then that signed a FA contract with a last place team?

I was adding in another possible factor to his list...since it does seem MOST players go where they get paid the most.

To answer your statement, most of the teams willing to spend a good chunk on free agents aren't usually in last place...cause they get the talent. So even if it's never happened, it doesn't prove anything.

Your assumption that the Twins have never made the best offer has no proof. Logic might be escaping you. Unless there is an overwhelmingly better offer and the team has drastically overpaid, or no one else wants you, why would you go to a losing small market, low media team? . There is nothing in the Twins offense or defense right now that would suggest to a pitcher that you are going to catch a break and thus have a poor record. Less money and a better record might net a bigger contract the next time. You so want to believe the Twins do not make competitive offers that it blinds you to all other possibilities. You also ignore the simple fact that playing on a losing team sucks so why would I want to go to a losing team? A big pile of money to hate life?

No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

chagen
12-11-2012, 02:58 PM
CDog,

Can't argue with you if your happy with the results the Twins have had the last couple years! There doing it right! I'm sure you'll be back hear in about a year telling how good a starter Kevin Corriea is. LOL

Rick Blaine
12-11-2012, 03:03 PM
I think you missed the sarcasm, Rick.

My bad. I thought it might be sarcasm-- but you never know. I really am only trying to build up my post total!

CDog
12-11-2012, 03:13 PM
CDog,

Can't argue with you if your happy with the results the Twins have had the last couple years! There doing it right! I'm sure you'll be back hear in about a year telling how good a starter Kevin Corriea is. LOL

That is EXACTLY what I said.....right? RIGHT? Are you really going to try and honestly make that leap? Or is it just more garbage where you argue against something that never existed or was said?

glunn
12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
It seems like this signing has upset a lot of us (including me), but let's try to remember that we are all in this together.

Blake
12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Maybe this is a trade deadline signing? Correia has an okay year, the Twins are out of contention by the end of April, I mean, June, another team in contention needs someone to fill a hole in the rotation and the Twins move Correia. (Yeah, I know, I'm reaching)

Who the hell would trade for Correia? JR can't trade to himself.

Notice I also said "Twins are out of contention in April, I mean, June..."

It was just a bit of tongue-in-cheek, trying to make sense of the senseless in a senseless way.

chagen
12-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Hears where i stand on this free agent signing. I'm totally against it i think it's a waste of 10 million dollars. Now are you for this signing CDOG?

biffman77
12-11-2012, 03:52 PM
At least Kevin Correia pitched a full major league season. It's more than Blackburn, DeVries,Deduno, And Pavano can say. When you need to add pitching,(and every team does) you have to go get players and let them sort it out. 2 years at 10 mil is not a very big deal in the grand scheme of things, and our goal as an organization needs to be finding able bodied pitchers that we can run out every 5th day. Guys like DeVries, Deduno, Hendricks, Vazquez, heck, even Gibson haven't established any kind of a track record that would suggest they can yet. So somebody has to take the ball, and for the last 4 years, Correia has at least been able to do that.

biffman77
12-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Correia fills a need, plain and simple. We need Pitching depth. At all levels. He alone will not be enough, but he does take us in a step towards the right direction. We need to hope that in the upcoming drafts, Trade deadlines, and free agency, that we continue to address this problem area.

Willihammer
12-11-2012, 04:04 PM
The only track record Correia's established is that he is a luck-dependent replacement level talent, who has only had the opportunity to throw a lot of innings on some very lousy teams.

biffman77
12-11-2012, 04:09 PM
It's going to be extremely hard to compete with what we have, and what's available on the trade and free agent markets. We do have a decent nucleus and a pretty effective bullpen, when you add Roenicke into the mix. Coupled with the fact that Swarzak and Duensing remain in the bullpen all year(hopefully) where they both were more effective. If we can add one more arm to help solidify our rotation and create a competition between the likes of DeVries, Deduno, Walters, Vazquez, Gibson, and even Blackburn, we can breath a little easier knowing these guys are depth, rather than options. In 2 years, when Correia and Blackburn are off the books, hopefully May and Meyer will be ready to join the party.

DAM DC Twins Fans
12-11-2012, 04:09 PM
I am not a big fan of this trade either. But at Correia has been injury free he past couple of years and will give us another starter until Gibson and Meyer are ready. He cant be much worse than DeVries--and remember that Twins were gonna pay Baker almost 10 mill next year anyway.

I doubt big name pitchers will consider Twins--our corner OF defense (Doumit, Parmalee, Josh) is worthless--our middle IF and CF defense is unproven prospects like Hicks, Benson, Dozier, Florimom---that means added ER..

Does anyone know why you cant get to comments on original article but have to go to Forum??

biffman77
12-11-2012, 04:11 PM
And we are...
It's not fun to admit it, but we are building for 2015. But you need someone to throw out there and not have it look like a deer in headlights.

rickyriolo
12-11-2012, 04:11 PM
corriea will have no value at the trade deadline....dumb signing....but he does have a heartbeat so i guess that is a good thing for the Twins

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:12 PM
I think most of us were hoping for – rather than expecting – good moves to be made that would set this club on the right course short-term. Is that so unreasonable? Ryan's made some good trades and made some good FA signings last year, but for whatever reason he simply cannot make it happen with decent free agent pitchers. Even with money to burn.

Hope has this problem - if it's not grounded in some sense of reality - it's often wrong. You got on your high horse to call a realistic position wrong based on hope. You know what I had hope in? Baker at 5.5M finding the Scotty B. that was highly underrated by this fanbase. This schtick doesn't work, people did the same thing to you prior to 2011. The issue wasn't that you were a soulless pessimist - it's that you overlooked reality. I'm not going to hammer you with it, but the positions are essentially flipped Nick. In my eyes, you looked past your own better judgement out of blind optimism rather than real analysis.

It happens to all fans, but next time don't be so quick to bash pessimism simply because it isn't what we want to hear. I know I learned that prior to 2011 when you were absolutely right.

biffman77
12-11-2012, 04:20 PM
I, for one will take a league average replacement over what we've been running out there the last 2 seasons. Especially since we're most likely to be lousy next year once again. It'll be buisness as usual for Mr. Correia.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 04:27 PM
I, for one will take a league average replacement over what we've been running out there the last 2 seasons. Especially since we're most likely to be lousy next year once again. It'll be buisness as usual for Mr. Correia.

If only he was league average....hasn't had an ERA+ of 100 or better since 2007

Boom Boom
12-11-2012, 04:28 PM
I, for one will take a league average replacement over what we've been running out there the last 2 seasons. Especially since we're most likely to be lousy next year once again. It'll be buisness as usual for Mr. Correia.

Except for that Correia isn't league average, even in the National League.

The Pirates demoted him to the bullpen. Think about that - Correia couldn't even hold down the 5th spot in the Pittsburgh Pirates' awful rotation.

SydneyTwinsFan
12-11-2012, 04:30 PM
Some over reaction to this signing. Personally I'm not that bothered by it:

2yrs/$10m isn't a budget killing contract. There is still room to add significant payroll
The Twins had OVER 100 STARTS last year from pitchers with an ERA > 5.00, so rolling out those same guys (Blackburn, Pavano, Liriano, Walters etc) isn't an option. Correia's 4.21 ERA from last year will likely rise a bit moving from NL>AL but there's at least some prospect he can keep the team in games rather than being out of it inside 2 innings.
To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat.

Look, am I sickened by the low K rate and lack of upside in the signing? For sure. Would I prefer to see Marcum at 3/35 or Jackson at 4/50? Absolutely. Do I think Correia is going to anchor the rotation over the next two years? Of course not.

But in the world in which TR is forced to operate (an institutionalised reluctance for long term FA signings, the 2013 Twins being a spectacularly unattractive FA destination), adding a guy to provide some back of the rotation innings that will keep the team in games for $5m per year hardly warrants a mob of posters with burning torches and pitchforks.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 04:33 PM
Some over reaction to this signing. Personally I'm not that bothered by it:

2yrs/$10m isn't a budget killing contract. There is still room to add significant payroll
The Twins had OVER 100 STARTS last year from pitchers with an ERA > 5.00, so rolling out those same guys (Blackburn, Pavano, Liriano, Walters etc) isn't an option. Correia's 4.21 ERA from last year will likely rise a bit moving from NL>AL but there's at least some prospect he can keep the team in games rather than being out of it inside 2 innings.
To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat.

Look, am I sickened by the low K rate and lack of upside in the signing? For sure. Would I prefer to see Marcum at 3/35 or Jackson at 4/50? Absolutely. Do I think Correia is going to anchor the rotation over the next two years? Of course not.

But in the world in which TR is forced to operate (an institutionalised reluctance for long term FA signings, the 2013 Twins being a spectacularly unattractive FA destination), adding a guy to provide some back of the rotation innings that will keep the team in games for $5m per year hardly warrants a mob of posters with burning torches and pitchforks.

Yes, but don't you normally sign your better players first in FA just in case they cost a bit more than you want to spend and then fill in with players like Corriea with some of the remaining money if you have to? Your post suggest they'll go after a much better arm since we have money left to spend, but it seems unlikely to sign a guy like Corriea first and THEN make that big splash.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 04:35 PM
Some over reaction to this signing. Personally I'm not that bothered by it:

2yrs/$10m isn't a budget killing contract. There is still room to add significant payroll
The Twins had OVER 100 STARTS last year from pitchers with an ERA > 5.00, so rolling out those same guys (Blackburn, Pavano, Liriano, Walters etc) isn't an option. Correia's 4.21 ERA from last year will likely rise a bit moving from NL>AL but there's at least some prospect he can keep the team in games rather than being out of it inside 2 innings.
To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat.

Look, am I sickened by the low K rate and lack of upside in the signing? For sure. Would I prefer to see Marcum at 3/35 or Jackson at 4/50? Absolutely. Do I think Correia is going to anchor the rotation over the next two years? Of course not.

But in the world in which TR is forced to operate (an institutionalised reluctance for long term FA signings, the 2013 Twins being a spectacularly unattractive FA destination), adding a guy to provide some back of the rotation innings that will keep the team in games for $5m per year hardly warrants a mob of posters with burning torches and pitchforks.

Problem is all we have are mid-to-back of the rotation guys...don't we have enough of those? Signing a guy like Correia doesn't fix any problems.

rickyriolo
12-11-2012, 04:37 PM
we get kevin correia and i hear the tigers were trying to get james shields doesn't seem right does it? They have quality starting pitching and are trying to acquire more. We pick up kevin correia and we wonder why we haven't won anything in over 20 years.
bingo.....spot on

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
Some over reaction to this signing. Personally I'm not that bothered by it:

2yrs/$10m isn't a budget killing contract. There is still room to add significant payroll
The Twins had OVER 100 STARTS last year from pitchers with an ERA > 5.00, so rolling out those same guys (Blackburn, Pavano, Liriano, Walters etc) isn't an option. Correia's 4.21 ERA from last year will likely rise a bit moving from NL>AL but there's at least some prospect he can keep the team in games rather than being out of it inside 2 innings.
To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat.

Look, am I sickened by the low K rate and lack of upside in the signing? For sure. Would I prefer to see Marcum at 3/35 or Jackson at 4/50? Absolutely. Do I think Correia is going to anchor the rotation over the next two years? Of course not.

But in the world in which TR is forced to operate (an institutionalised reluctance for long term FA signings, the 2013 Twins being a spectacularly unattractive FA destination), adding a guy to provide some back of the rotation innings that will keep the team in games for $5m per year hardly warrants a mob of posters with burning torches and pitchforks.

Marquis "kept the team in games" last year, too, amiright?

Boom Boom
12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
Some over reaction to this signing. Personally I'm not that bothered by it:

2yrs/$10m isn't a budget killing contract. There is still room to add significant payroll
The Twins had OVER 100 STARTS last year from pitchers with an ERA > 5.00, so rolling out those same guys (Blackburn, Pavano, Liriano, Walters etc) isn't an option. Correia's 4.21 ERA from last year will likely rise a bit moving from NL>AL but there's at least some prospect he can keep the team in games rather than being out of it inside 2 innings.
To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat.

Look, am I sickened by the low K rate and lack of upside in the signing? For sure. Would I prefer to see Marcum at 3/35 or Jackson at 4/50? Absolutely. Do I think Correia is going to anchor the rotation over the next two years? Of course not.

But in the world in which TR is forced to operate (an institutionalised reluctance for long term FA signings, the 2013 Twins being a spectacularly unattractive FA destination), adding a guy to provide some back of the rotation innings that will keep the team in games for $5m per year hardly warrants a mob of posters with burning torches and pitchforks.

It's not about killing the budget, the Twins have money to spend.

What bothers me is that the Twins already have guys who can give them what Correia can. I'm not a big believer in the minor leaguers the Twins trotted out last year, but I'd rather give them the spot at league minimum than going outside the organization for redundant filler like Correia.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 04:44 PM
Tigers have a heck of a pitching staff, and they are going after Sanchez...Royals get Shields and Wade Davis (who can be a starter...could be a good one...but TB made them a reliever cause they were pitching flush)...and we sign a guy like Correia to go along with other unimpressive starters.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 04:50 PM
Hope has this problem - if it's not grounded in some sense of reality - it's often wrong. You got on your high horse to call a realistic position wrong based on hope. You know what I had hope in? Baker at 5.5M finding the Scotty B. that was highly underrated by this fanbase. This schtick doesn't work, people did the same thing to you prior to 2011. The issue wasn't that you were a soulless pessimist - it's that you overlooked reality. I'm not going to hammer you with it, but the positions are essentially flipped Nick. In my eyes, you looked past your own better judgement out of blind optimism rather than real analysis.

It happens to all fans, but next time don't be so quick to bash pessimism simply because it isn't what we want to hear. I know I learned that prior to 2011 when you were absolutely right.

There were (and are) pitchers out there who would have a far more legitimate chance to bolster this rotation and would probably fall under the Twins' supposed budget constraints. It was not unrealistic to think that Ryan – given unprecedented payroll flexibility – might find a way to land one or two of those guys.

In the 2011 offseason many people were pulling the wool over their eyes when it came to moves like swapping Hardy for Nishioka and re-signing Pavano and Capps, blindly trusting in an organization that had enjoyed a decade of nearly uninterrupted success. This is quite different. I've made clear that I think this is a horrible signing. I'm just disappointed, and honestly expected better from TR given how much he has talked about his determination to bring in quality starting pitching.

Also, yes, Baker's contract is vastly preferable to Correia's. That doesn't make it a good investment. I don't know why you're acting like this signing is some sort of proof that it was.

SweetOne69
12-11-2012, 04:53 PM
"To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat."

Actually he only had 16 Quality Starts last year, the same number as Diamond.

Kwak
12-11-2012, 04:54 PM
Apparently most have reached the acceptance/resignation step today. Maybe its getting time to research the top amateurs in the next Rule 4 (amateur) draft so we can discuss who the Twins should select next summer, rather than beating this dead horse some more?

pasadenajoe
12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
I think this is a terrible signing. The absolute best case scenario is that he is an average pitcher. More likely is that he is a new Jason Marquis. The Twins shouldn't spend $10 million for that. If you are aiming for mediocre, get some cheap AAAA cast-off guys.
There are pitchers who are riskier but who have a much better upside. The Twins should target them. That way, if they fail, cut bait. If they succeed (ala Diamond), re-sign them.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 05:08 PM
Is Ryan really this dumb?

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 05:10 PM
It was not unrealistic to think that Ryan – given unprecedented payroll flexibility – might find a way to land one or two of those guys.

Landing one may still happen, the problem is after that one you want the best bang for your buck. 5M won't take you far unless you're willing to take on some serious risk. Baker, much like McCarthy and others, has those risks. They will appear to be "overpaid" but you're paying for the reward, not the risk.

I will note, that you cited the issue in 2011 as blind trust of the organization and then posted a blog article this year called "In Terry we trust" in the midst of your soap boxing about why anyone with the opposite opinion of you on the signings of Feldman and Baker was misguided and that this offseason they could fix an awful pitching staff in one swing. No offense, but I can't possibly find a better example of blind trust than that. It's not like this organization has a strong history of major offseason upgrades. That's blind trust Nick, it's not any different.


Also, yes, Baker's contract is vastly preferable to Correia's. That doesn't make it a good investment. I don't know why you're acting like this signing is some sort of proof that it was.

It's proof that 5M can be spent in much, much worse ways. Again I'll venture the same bet I did earlier - 5M is going to be spent this offseason by many teams in many worse ways than a flyer on Scott Baker. To have been so down on that move at the time was blind to the potential of this kind of move. Ultimately we won't know how good any of these investments are until the end of this season. But contrary to your arguments, it was perfectly reasonable to think that 5.5M to Baker was not a reach. The offseason is absolutely bearing that out.

SydneyTwinsFan
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
I guess I'm not convinced that the Twins already have what Correia brings, or that he doesn't fill a need. Time will prove me wrong maybe.

At this point, Diamond and Worley are the only guys pencilled in the rotation. What's left?
Hendricks - as a fellow Aussie I hope he makes it, and I'm not going to write him off given his age and relative minor league success, but in terms of WAR, ERA, WHIP he was demonstrably worse than Correia last year
DeVries - looks like the most likely guy to provide some serviceable innings
Deduno - BB rate is an implosion waiting to happen and I'll take Correia's proven mediocrity
Blackburn - you're kidding, right?
Gibson - going to be on an innings count, so bank on him of 1/2 to 2/3 of a season.

The fact is, outside of Diamond the Twins weren't able to get 20 starts out of anyone last year. Nick Blackburn (gulp) was forced to turn out 19 starts. There is value in what Correia brings, even if it's not exciting and doesn;t have much upside. Of course I would prefer them to sign Marcum or Jackson to provide genuine quality, and I hope by some miracle they do, but you can't force them to come here. And if you can't get those guys then you have to find whatever modest ways to improve the team you can. Replacing the 30 starts the team was forced to endure from Blackburn/Pavano with Correia makes the team incrementally better.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 05:11 PM
FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal reports that the Yankees have signed free agent third baseman Kevin Youkilis to a one-year, $12 million contract.

Youkilis turned down a two-year, $18 million propsal from the Indians in order to return to the American League East. It should be a nice fit for him in New York, where he'll start at third base until Alex Rodriguez returns from mid-January hip surgery. "Youk" batted .235/.336/.409 with 19 home runs and 60 RBI in 122 games this past season between the Red Sox and White Sox.
Related: Yankees (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/nyy/yankees)

Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitte (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/278634850896990209)

SydneyTwinsFan
12-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Actually he only had 16 Quality Starts last year, the same as Diamond

Should that depress me about the "ace" of the rotation or encourage me about Correia?
I'm not trying to defend the Correia signing as a great one, far from it. Just suggesting it's not as bad as is being made out here.

JB_Iowa
12-11-2012, 05:20 PM
It seems to me that there were a number of people who had high hopes that the Twins would sign 2 pitchers in FA who were better than average (or at least 1 better than average and 1 average) -- and some were actually hoping for 3.

I never had those expectations so this is less disappointing to me than it may be to some others. I've been pleased with the trades Ryan made because I've wanted them to start rebuilding since October 2010 BUT my eye continues to be on the bottom line.

No one should be blithely accepting of a payroll at $75-$80 million unless the Twins make it VERY clear that they are no longer adhering to the 50% policy AND are, in fact, harboring some of unspent portion of their savings for use down the road (and, if that is the case, then they had darn well better be spending significantly more than 50% when it comes to 2014, 2015 and later [and yes, I realize that is a Catch-22 in that 50% may be less dollars if attendance continues to decline although the extra $25m in split TV revenues will help]).

I realize that I'm like a broken record on this point but IF the Twins continue to maintain that they are adhering to the 50+% rule THEN, if they won't (or can't) put it into some decent starting pitching, they darn well need to be seeking out upgrades & values at some of their positions that might later be flipped for more prospects.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 05:20 PM
Twins signed RHP Scott Elarton to a minor league contract.

Elarton hasn't appeared in the majors since 2008 and posted a 5.41 ERA in 26 starts at Triple-A for the Phillies in 2012. He's merely organizational depth.

snepp
12-11-2012, 05:23 PM
fox sports' ken rosenthal reports that the yankees have signed free agent third baseman kevin youkilis to a one-year, $12 million contract.

Youkilis turned down a two-year, $18 million propsal from the indians in order to return to the american league east. It should be a nice fit for him in new york, where he'll start at third base until alex rodriguez returns from mid-january hip surgery. "youk" batted .235/.336/.409 with 19 home runs and 60 rbi in 122 games this past season between the red sox and white sox.
related: yankees (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/nyy/yankees)

source: ken rosenthal on twitte (https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/278634850896990209)

wtf?

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 05:41 PM
Actually he only had 16 Quality Starts last year, the same as Diamond

Should that depress me about the "ace" of the rotation or encourage me about Correia?
I'm not trying to defend the Correia signing as a great one, far from it. Just suggesting it's not as bad as is being made out here.

It''s absolutely as bad as it's being made out to be.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Marquis "kept the team in games" last year, too, amiright?


"To that end, Correia had 17 starts last year where he went at least 6IP with < 4 earned runs. No Twins starter from last year can claim that. Pittsburgh went 15-13 in games started by Correia last year - I would take that outcome in a heartbeat."

Actually he only had 16 Quality Starts last year, the same number as Diamond.

yeah... The Ol' QS... A pretty good indicator of keeping your team in the game in my opinion. Good call...

QS%

Correia .571

Cherry picking this stat makes him look fairly affective. Marcum is also at .57... So is Worley.

Greinke is at .59... That means two out five starts were not quality. Greinke 20 quality starts out of 34. 14 Starts that he couldnt get thru 6 innings of work without giving up 3 runs or less... This is the guy that everyone wants at 25 million per? Yet Correia... Gave his team a chance to win at an equal percentage and he is crucified.

Pitchers with a lower QS% in 2012

Hellickson...Wainwright... T.Hudson... Minor... Free Agent Edwin Jackson... Masterson... Latos... Lester... Haren... Buchholz... Matt Moore... Tommy Hanson... Lincecum...

Based on 100 IP minimum... Correia is tied for 60th... 30 teams in MLB...

The more I look into this... I could end up... Actually liking this signing.

Chief... Marquis had two quality starts in Minnesota,.. So yeah... I guess Marquis had a couple.

Brandon
12-11-2012, 07:38 PM
2857

This is the last I am going to post about this signing. and we better get at least one decent pitcher.

ssmart
12-11-2012, 10:39 PM
Well, ah ... Thanks Nick that certainaly depressed me. Ryan Dempster Guy.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-11-2012, 11:07 PM
I can't bring myself to hate this move. The Twins are not at the top of anybody's list for free agency... If this guy forces Walters/Devries/Deduno/Blackburn to at least EARN a spot in the rotation, then the Twins made a good move.

I know everybody wants the big splash, but this team isn't a contender even if this was Grienke the Twins signed. 2013 is a rebuild year, accept it. Would you rather the Twins make their big splash now, and waste what will be the 2 most productive years of a big free agents' deal on a rebuilding season? I'd rather this team punt 2013 and make their big splash in 2014.

And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market. The Twins will sign free agents if they think they can contend.

snepp
12-12-2012, 01:42 AM
And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market.

Just like the Capps contract didn't hamper them this past offseason, when they gave him way too much money way too early in free agency. Nope, it's inconceivable that this contract could potentially hamper them in ANY way this year or next. No chance whatsoever. None. Zip.

johnnydakota
12-12-2012, 02:05 AM
Dodger get another as Skip skips the Twins
Shumaker is now a Dodger..

kdag23
12-12-2012, 08:09 AM
To me it feels like a Jason Marquis deal. So, the Twins are going to have a rotation made up of guys that are no better than #3 on most other rosters in the league...again?

This signing irks me considering that KC just signed James Shields. K f******C! The Twins don't have the pieces to do something like that - to sign someone who could actually be a legitimate #1?

I got to thinking about Torii Hunter's comments a few seasons ago when talking about the Twins: "Sometimes I think they have that small mind over there, in that organization."

The Royals didn't sign James Shields, they traded the best hitting prospect in baseball to get him....

Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

beckmt
12-12-2012, 08:47 AM
You have to buy them in single A as pieces or take one as a chance at a higher level(May). The best the Royals trade was is even and many baseball writers consider it a steal for Tampa Bay. If that is what the Twins have to do, buy and develope, don't give the future away for a small chance now.

Brock Beauchamp
12-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

Not in my lifetime.

And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.

old nurse
12-12-2012, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=ThePuck;70248][QUOTE=old nurse;70243][QUOTE=ThePuck;70231][QUOTE=JB_Iowa;70230]


No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

mike wants wins
12-12-2012, 10:31 AM
So people still think they will fix all their holes next year, and should not start now? Can you explain how you think that might work? Can you explain how signing a second tier starter for 3-4 years does not help 2014?

Nick Nelson
12-12-2012, 10:37 AM
I will note, that you cited the issue in 2011 as blind trust of the organization and then posted a blog article this year called "In Terry we trust" in the midst of your soap boxing about why anyone with the opposite opinion of you on the signings of Feldman and Baker was misguided and that this offseason they could fix an awful pitching staff in one swing. No offense, but I can't possibly find a better example of blind trust than that. It's not like this organization has a strong history of major offseason upgrades. That's blind trust Nick, it's not any different.
I do trust Terry Ryan. I trust his long-term vision. I trust his honesty. I trust his ability to pluck quality players out of other organizations. But he's not flawless and his ability to sign quality free agent pitchers is clearly a major weakness. Maybe it's a money thing tied to the organization's fiscal philosophies but signing Corriea to a two-year deal in December is strange from any perspective. I thought perhaps he'd learned a lesson from the Jason Marquis fiasco (not to mention Livan Hernandez, Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, etc) but apparently not. Nevertheless, there are worse flaws that a GM could have, especially for a franchise such as this one that will never rely on free agency to build a rotation.

Could you please find an example of me harshly criticizing "anyone with the opposite opinion" and "soapboxing" on Baker/Feldman? I recall stating my opinion on the matter, as is the norm on a message board. I don't recall being as dramatic about it as you make it sound.

TheLeviathan
12-12-2012, 04:02 PM
Nevertheless, there are worse flaws that a GM could have, especially for a franchise such as this one that will never rely on free agency to build a rotation.

I'm not a Ryan basher, that's not the direction it's heading. Ryan builds strong organizations, is patient, and has (as you correctly put it) long-term vision. But all of those factors are also incredibly strong indicators that a one-offseason approach to fixing this team were absolutely foolish. Going into this offseason with that expectation was blind trust because it relied on JR to do something he's never done before and is unlikely to ever do in his tenure. It's not his wheelhouse.

As for the rest, we both know no matter what is posted we'll keep our own opinion on the tone. The threads aren't hard to find, basically any centered on Feldman, Baker, or your thoughts about them. You were aggressive in your early condemnation of the Cubs signings (arguably three articles with that point) and made it a point to call out a number of posters who shared pessimism about the upcoming season. It doesn't make me happy that we are bound to stink again next year, but it also doesn't change that the side of the fence you chose on both of those arguments was wrong.

Nick Nelson
12-12-2012, 04:46 PM
Going into this offseason with that expectation was blind trust because it relied on JR to do something he's never done before and is unlikely to ever do in his tenure. It's not his wheelhouse.
I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.


As for the rest, we both know no matter what is posted we'll keep our own opinion on the tone. The threads aren't hard to find, basically any centered on Feldman, Baker, or your thoughts about them. You were aggressive in your early condemnation of the Cubs signings (arguably three articles with that point) and made it a point to call out a number of posters who shared pessimism about the upcoming season.
Nah, that's a cop-out. If you're going to throw around these claims you better be able to back them up. Are you talking about when I said of the Feldman signing (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/nick-nelson/2194-cubs-signings-spell-trouble-twins.html): "The total seems somewhat extreme, at least from the perspective of an organization with less money to throw around than the Cubs, but perhaps only by the preset standards we entered this offseason with"? Or when I said of the Baker signing (http://twinsdaily.com/1172-baker-follows-good-deal.html): "Baker is a very good pitcher when healthy, but he's eclipsed 175 innings only once in his career and guaranteeing him $5.5 million in his first season back from major elbow surgery – despite a saturated pitching market – seems crazy to me" (emphasis added)?

I'm sorry, but neither of the articles you're referring to strike me as soapboxing nor attacking people with opposing viewpoints, and if I was doing that in the forum I don't remember it. Instead, this seems like yet another instance of you mischaracterizing or exaggerating another person's position to belittle them in hindsight. It's bad form.


It doesn't make me happy that we are bound to stink again next year, but it also doesn't change that the side of the fence you chose on both of those arguments was wrong.
It's way too early to be calling anyone "wrong" about any of this. Once again: Kevin Correia signing a hideous contract does not make Baker's contract or Feldman's contract any more attractive. I still wouldn't have liked either of them for the Twins. Their contracts are relatively better than Correia's though. You win that point.

jffrsnclrk
12-12-2012, 04:52 PM
Looks like there will be plenty of competition for the long relief role, luckily, there will be plenty of long relief situations for the "competitors"
to fill.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-12-2012, 05:22 PM
And finally, 2 years 10 million... It's peanuts. It will not hamper this team in ANY way next year or this year in the free agent market.

Just like the Capps contract didn't hamper them this past offseason, when they gave him way too much money way too early in free agency. Nope, it's inconceivable that this contract could potentially hamper them in ANY way this year or next. No chance whatsoever. None. Zip.

They may use it as an excuse, I'm sure that's a possibility... but I'm not onboard with people's assessment that the Twins have a firm limit on payroll. I think they spend money when they believe there is value in the contract, or when they absolutely have to fill a need (like this case). I believe if this team is on the verge of contending next year the Twins will spend money to do so. 5 million dollars isn't gonna make much of a difference either way.

TheLeviathan
12-12-2012, 05:29 PM
I don't see the value in relying on precedent in an unprecedented situation. He's never had this kind of money to spend in an offseason. I admit that I underestimated the costs of free agent pitching, like most people, but I still don't think it was ever unrealistic to expect $20-25 million to buy you a better pitcher than Baker, Feldman or Correia.

So you don't see the value in relying on precedent, general tactics of a known GM, or analysis of the market....but hope is just fine? Because that's what you've got - hope. And, not just plain old hope, it was "let's add three quality arms without dinging our average offensive output so we can compete even though historically there may be no precedent of any team, in any situation, ever doing so" level of hope. Sorry, but I'll take precedent and actual analysis over that basis any day of the week. You should be familiar with it, you did it two years ago yourself. I'm not sure if all of you guys writing articles were intentionally being positive or what it was, but there was a real dearth of sobering reality from anyone but a few posters.


Nah, that's a cop-out.
Here's what I'll say looking back, you took an aggressive approach to your take and sometimes that makes you look like a genius and sometimes you get the opposite. You called Baker's deal "undeniably" great for him (implying undeniably a poor tactic for the Twins. The context comes right after that one) and then demanded evidence from anyone disagreeing with your point. Evidence you refused to reciprocate btw. But you're right, there was less direct evidence of it than my memory recalls. So I take those terms back with apologies. It would be better phrased that you were aggressive in labeling Baker as a mistake that the Twins rightly avoided.

Personally, I think if they had taken that "mistake", we might have avoided this one.

mikecgrimes
12-12-2012, 05:43 PM
Best thing about this signing we didn't give someone 2 years 16 million because his ERA was 2 tenths of a point better. Guy compares to Carl Pavano, wouldn't want to see him start a playoff game, but thats not going to be a problem.

ThePuck
12-12-2012, 07:54 PM
[QUOTE=ThePuck;70248][QUOTE=old nurse;70243][QUOTE=ThePuck;70231][QUOTE=JB_Iowa;70230]


No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

old nurse
12-13-2012, 08:27 AM
[QUOTE=ThePuck;70248][QUOTE=old nurse;70243][QUOTE=ThePuck;70231][QUOTE=JB_Iowa;70230]


No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.
I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.

ThePuck
12-13-2012, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=ThePuck;70248][QUOTE=old nurse;70243][QUOTE=ThePuck;70231][QUOTE=JB_Iowa;70230]


No worse than your assumption the Twins DID offer the most money, but the pitcher decided a team that's only been bad the last two seasons isn't worth going to.

It's all assumptions, you just think yours are better.

All I did was say it COULD be a factor, along with the other factors given by the person who made the post I was responding to

Read much? My assumptions that even if (Not did, if) the Twins were the high bidder they would not come here. The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

Yes, I read plenty Richard Cranium...The point was, your assumptions are just that. Yours aren't better than those you disagree with....I see you just skipped right past that. You also skipped past the fact that big spenders aren't usually at the bottom in the standings, so it makes sense there haven't been many, if any, big time pitchers signing big contracts to last place team.

In any event, since you insist on talking to me and others as if we are idiots, every damn time you post, why not just stop replying to me in general. I'm apparently not in your league on baseball knowledge. Chat with people smarter than me.

Opinions are a fine thing to have. A basis in reality would be good. Mets, Cubs, Red Sox before the trade, and the Marlins had large payrolls with splashy free agents and sign and trades.
I noticed that the higher profile free agents do not sign with small to mid market last place team. Nobody refutes that. You say it is a stupid assumption. If a team is losing and rebuilding, why would you go to a team that has only one or two very good players if there were other options.? The average fan ought to understand not wanting to be around losers or otherwise this board wouldn't have all the complaining.

Yeah, my idea that a reason we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency is because maybe sometimes we haven't offered the most money isn't an idea based on reality. I mean, it's crazy to believe maybe we have lost out on some top notch FA pitching due to not offering the most money. I get it. I don't have any proof that maybe a pitcher or two decided 'hey, I'll go where I'm offered the most money.' and by signing elsewhere, that means we didn't offer the most money. I'm just loopy to think money might be a factor in a pitchers decision on where to sign. AND I NEVER SAID THE TWINS LOST OUT ON FA PITCHING EVERY TIME BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T OFFER THE MOST MONEY. I said sometime maybe money was the reason.

Oh, and you know, I didn't discount anyone else's ideas as to why we haven't signed top notch pitching in free agency as 'stupid' either...there's a lot of factors....the poster I originally responded to listed some, but he didn't list money. So I added that as another possible reason. I didn't discount the factors he posted.

Kwak
12-13-2012, 09:02 AM
Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

Not in my lifetime.

And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.
It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.

old nurse
12-13-2012, 09:36 AM
Signed, traded for...semantics. The point is - when was the last time the Twins acquired a legitimate top of the rotation guy?

Not in my lifetime.

And if the going rate for one is what Kansas City just paid, I hope that continues to be the case. Kansas City was a 90 loss team in 2012. I have the feeling they're going to seriously regret pulling the trigger on competing prematurely. There was just no reason for it. Detroit is stronger this season but should begin to fade quickly as Fielder/Miggy get older, Verlander & Co. log more innings, Hunter falls into obscurity, V-Mart leaves, etc.

There was simply no reason to go all-in right now. 2014 looks like a much better window to compete. I think Moore just made a huge mistake.
It was 1992. The Twins signed this LH pitcher from PITT to replace Morris (who bolted to TOR). I can't remember his name though.
John Smiley?

snepp
12-13-2012, 10:37 AM
Might be time to re-enable that quote limit Brock, this is getting ridiculous.

cmathewson
12-13-2012, 04:44 PM
<sadface>

ashburyjohn
12-13-2012, 05:03 PM
The best anyone has come up with for high profile free agent signings to a last place team was Jeff Francis.

But, but, but... Jack Morris!

diehardtwinsfan
12-13-2012, 06:24 PM
wait... newsflash... high profile players always sign with large market teams... you don't say. I've yet to hear of one small to mid market team that said "we offered XXXXX more money, but he took the smaller contract to play with the Yankees".

GoMNTwins
12-19-2012, 12:54 PM
One thing that we all seem to be ignoring here is that Terry Ryan and the Twins FO don't have any shortage of money, and this mentality of budgeting saving and not spending the money big name free agents are worth for the sake of improvement is entirely self-imposed, and to be honest, flies in the face of the argument that deemed Target Field so necessary when they were stomping their feet and banging pots and pans together to get it. They are officially making ridiculous amounts of money off a building the state of Minnesota put up for them, all the while insisting that we need to keep giving them money by using the All-Star Game as a marketing tool to sell season tickets. Kevin Correia is a colossal waste of money, but there's no reason to think that it should hamper their ability to sign a guy like Marcum or Jackson, it's just that they choose not to spend money. They're not too stupid to figure out the White Sox and the Tigers have solid rotations because they were willing to pay for it, they just think we're stupid enough not to figure it out and just assume that injuries are at fault, or some other kind of bad break. When injuries rear their ugly head next year, is Terry Ryan going to accept responsibility for bringing in two pitchers that went under the knife so recently? It's going to be interesting to see excuses and consequences overlap next year, and I can't wait to hear Ryan and St Peter explain it away all over again. It's really time we stop paying money for this.

jokin
12-19-2012, 12:59 PM
In Terry we trust?

That's going to be the mantra for 2013 and a hard one to live down by those who wrote as such or those that thrive in the Ryan-Worship set..... because....see..."GMing is hard!"...... (although I think Ryan-worshippers are finally coming around to having their eyes opened).

70charger
12-19-2012, 01:21 PM
One thing that we all seem to be ignoring here is that Terry Ryan and the Twins FO don't have any shortage of money, and this mentality of budgeting saving and not spending the money big name free agents are worth for the sake of improvement is entirely self-imposed, and to be honest, flies in the face of the argument that deemed Target Field so necessary when they were stomping their feet and banging pots and pans together to get it. They are officially making ridiculous amounts of money off a building the state of Minnesota put up for them, all the while insisting that we need to keep giving them money by using the All-Star Game as a marketing tool to sell season tickets. Kevin Correia is a colossal waste of money, but there's no reason to think that it should hamper their ability to sign a guy like Marcum or Jackson, it's just that they choose not to spend money. They're not too stupid to figure out the White Sox and the Tigers have solid rotations because they were willing to pay for it, they just think we're stupid enough not to figure it out and just assume that injuries are at fault, or some other kind of bad break. When injuries rear their ugly head next year, is Terry Ryan going to accept responsibility for bringing in two pitchers that went under the knife so recently? It's going to be interesting to see excuses and consequences overlap next year, and I can't wait to hear Ryan and St Peter explain it away all over again. It's really time we stop paying money for this.

Then stop. And next time, come up with something original. This is a TD "best of" compilation, except using only the worst posters.