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John Bonnes
12-10-2012, 11:21 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1244-On-Paradigms-and-Kevin-Correia

Seth Stohs
12-10-2012, 11:36 PM
Uhhhmmm, can you repeat the part, about the stuff?

Shane Wahl
12-10-2012, 11:55 PM
He also actually isn't that durable. He has one season over 172 innings pitched. They should have, honestly, just saved that damn money and tried to someone turn the $5.5 million being spent on Blackburn into a viable 5th starter. They now are spending $10.5 million for both of them.

Lesser Dali
12-10-2012, 11:57 PM
Maybe Kevin Correia will have a paradigm shift which leads him to throw harder, have better stuff, and have a better mental make-up to be a starting pitcher. One never knows. It is too bad this signing came so late in the Christmas season. If it were a month earlier, maybe some of us could have sent Santa Claus a letter, asking for him to give Correia these gifts. But alas, It is too late for that... oh well, maybe next year.

glunn
12-11-2012, 12:03 AM
Look at the bright side - maybe this will raise the market for decent pitchers, thereby forcing other teams to pay more.

drivlikejehu
12-11-2012, 12:04 AM
No, this is really that bad. It's not an overreaction to say so. The killer is 2014; Correia will have been blasted out of the rotation by then, but it's $5 million down the drain for a season that is hopefully when things can finally head in a positive direction.

h2oface
12-11-2012, 12:15 AM
Don't the Twins have pitchers like this signed in Rochester? Yes. And for 1/10th of the money. It will be interesting to see how the Ryan defenders spin the good out of this. Hey..... his ERA was 4.21 last year. Like being a minute late to the party and all that is left is smoke in the room.

Big Daddy H
12-11-2012, 12:22 AM
Kevin Coreia pitched some nice games when he was with the Giants. He pitched better last year then the year before. A new setting and a pitching friendly park may be just the ticket. He also may be learning how to be a better pitcher as many aging pitchers do. I cannot believe he will be as bad as Blackburn. What pitches does he throw, and at what speed? I think this should be at least part of the discussion.

Big Daddy H
12-11-2012, 12:27 AM
You guys must really not like Terry Ryan and Kevin Correia. I post a positive note on Correia and it's gone in less then a minute. Simply amazing!

Big Daddy H
12-11-2012, 12:30 AM
The 32-year-old, who had a 51.2 percent ground-ball rate, which ranked tied for seventh in the National League.

h2oface
12-11-2012, 12:30 AM
You guys must really not like Terry Ryan and Kevin Correia. I post a positive note on Correia and it's gone in less then a minute. Simply amazing!

I think something is glitching on the site. I could only get the comments to come up if I entered here from the forum. If I clicked on the "read more...." at the end of the intro on the front page......... there were no comments on any of the articles just now. I can see your misguided "positive" comment just fine from here. ;-)

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-11-2012, 12:45 AM
Day and Night TR talks....each word more useless then the next.... give me cancer now god!

Paul Pleiss
12-11-2012, 01:02 AM
Loved this article, great way to spin the signing. Really liked the way you came at the Correia signing. GOODNESS! (your article, not the signing)

SpantheMan
12-11-2012, 01:18 AM
Do you really think that Blackburn is a better option? I definitely agree with some of the others but really? Blackburn?

tjsyam921
12-11-2012, 06:19 AM
I guess this is Terry's way of killing the fans excitement over the two trades he made to add what could be good pitching???

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:49 AM
Is 6:30am too early to start drinking or to late to stop?

sorney
12-11-2012, 07:16 AM
Is 6:30am too early to start drinking or to late to stop?

I think the answer is *No* to both.

twinswon1991
12-11-2012, 07:17 AM
Terry Ryan just doesnt get it! I cant wait for the presser when TR says he signed a nice guy and a winner!

Time for a major change at the top. Terry's solid trades will never be enough to offset his stupid free agent mistakes and pitch to contact philosophy.

twinkiesfan11
12-11-2012, 08:05 AM
I think a lot of you are overreacting to this signing.

1. The pitch to contact, soft tossing comments are getting really old. Ryan just traded for three pitchers who don't fit this mold to varying degrees, it's obvious he's trying to find some guys who can strike people out.
2. Whining about the contract is a little premature until we see how the market treats the rest of the available pitching. There have been some bloated ass contracts handed out all winter, this could look somewhat reasonable in another week or two.
3. Blackburn is NOT a better option, he's completely imploded for two years in a row. They can't count on him for anything and any contribution he makes going forward should be considered an unexpected bonus.

I'll admit, Kevin Correia was the LAST guy I wanted to see them sign this offseason. But if he's being brought aboard to chew some innings to keep Gibson's innings down and give Hendricks, Meyer and May more time to develop while the team won't be competitive anyway, I'm ok with it. Maybe he'll do well enough to generate some trading deadline interest and TR can flip him for another diamond in the rough C prospect.

kirbyelway
12-11-2012, 08:11 AM
I would just let Blackburn be the #5 guy instead of wasting $ on this!!!

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 08:12 AM
The 32-year-old, who had a 51.2 percent ground-ball rate, which ranked tied for seventh in the National League.

You say that like it's a good thing. The Twins play in a flyball friendly park and possibly have the worst infield defense in the league. Groundball pitchers for the Twins are going to get eaten alive in 2013. Unearned runs will lose you games just as often as earned runs, this defense needs strikeout pitchers and this guy is the exact opposite of that.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 08:16 AM
You just suggested that the Twins are not cheap. Would you like to offer evidence of that? Yes, that is a Covey story. This is a terrible signing. There is no paradigm shift fans could make to view this through a different lens that leads to a different conclusion. I am willing to listen/read if someone has one.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 08:17 AM
The Twins play in a flyball friendly park and possibly have the worst infield defense in the league.

*cough*Detroit Tigers*cough*

JB_Iowa
12-11-2012, 08:22 AM
Oh, what I'd give to know what unsuccessful offers the Twins have made.

Did they simply misread the market and fail to open the checkbook when middle-tier pitchers were signing early or are pitchers really that adverse to signing in Minnesota? Are they now just desperate? Are they trying to keep the payroll below $85 million.

How I wish I knew what was really going on here.

Willihammer
12-11-2012, 08:28 AM
''We want the kind of pitchers we haven't had enough of," Twins assistant general manager Rob Antony told the Minneapolis Star Tribune. "Pitchers who can miss bats."

Worley and Correia?

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 08:37 AM
The Twins play in a flyball friendly park and possibly have the worst infield defense in the league.

*cough*Detroit Tigers*cough*

Well you got me there. At least their GM understands pitch-to-contact arms don't work well with a terrible defense and employ four starters with a K/9 of +7.5.

Rosterman
12-11-2012, 08:39 AM
It might just be the best that the Twins will be able to attract this season. We have to wait and see how the non-tenders pan out (hell, Humber signed for less than a million, you could have had Francis and Marquis for $3 million each, Pavano is shaking the trees for $3 million). At this rate, though, I would have made a much better offer to Baker or even reupped him for $9+ million. Are the Twins basically the last resort some players are looking at, along with Houston and Miami? We should still be on par or above THE ROYALS. The money is there. There is enough to get two starters and a bonafide infielder. And we managed to trade for a few studs (not all ready yet). I think our biggest gripe is that not only will we eat Blackburns $5.5 million this year as wasted money, but do the same in 2014 with Correia, who will just be a place filler. Is he a bad pitcher? Our offense and defense will make that decision. But if we are going to WASTE -- and that's the magic word "WASTE" -- money signing some free agents, would we, as fans, rather see the Twins spend nothing at all.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 08:40 AM
The Twins play in a flyball friendly park and possibly have the worst infield defense in the league.

*cough*Detroit Tigers*cough*

Well you got me there. At least their GM understands pitch-to-contact arms don't work well with a terrible defense and employ four starters with a K/9 of +7.5.

Fair enough.

Right now, the 2013 Twins are still probably a better team than the 2012 Twins... By one or two games.

Sigh. I don't understand what Ryan was thinking with this "acquisition".

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 08:56 AM
I would have rather had Pavano at that price, and Pavano's not deluded enough to think he's going to get a two year deal.

The worst part about this deal is, unlike Marquis, with that 2nd year attached, no way will the Twins DFA him in June if he's getting lit up and a minor leaguer is kicking down the door ready for his chance. He's probably untradeable as well unless the Twins eat most of his contract.

So the rotation thus far: Worley, Diamond, Correia, Hendriks, Gibson. Assuming the Twins DO sign another FA starter, Hendricks or Gibson are starting in Rochester or the pen. What happens if everyone stays healthy and the odd man out pitches lights out and deserves a rotation spot? Do the Twins really have it in them to toss their new $10 million starter in the bullpen that quickly? Doubt it. No move would have been better than this move.

eagle
12-11-2012, 09:04 AM
Can we outright him to AAA to add depth to our farm system? Seriously, how is he any better than Walters. Swarzak, Devries, etc? I've been on board with TR's moves up to this point. If you've decided 2013 is a wash, then don't make this move. If you want to go for it in a division that isn't deep, there are ample opportunities to grab a #2 and spend some money. But don't play the band aid approach as you are wasting your owner's money and fans time.

ChiTownTwinsFan
12-11-2012, 09:33 AM
Is 6:30am too early to start drinking or to late to stop?

As the saying goes ... it's 5 o' clock somewhere.

Monkeypaws
12-11-2012, 09:48 AM
Day and Night TR talks....each word more useless then the next.... give me cancer now god!

Hank! ;)

I will assume the minority role here and say, let's wait and see how he does before we crucify Ryan.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Right now, the 2013 Twins are still probably a better team than the 2012 Twins...

That's dubious, at best.

No centerfielder, no leadoff hitter. No additions to the middle infield. Nothing significant added to a very shallow bullpen that will likely be hard pressed to match last year's mediocrity. Outside of the rotation, the Twins were about as healthy as could be expected in 2012. The only 2012 starter who performed at a major league level is a pretty good candidate for some serious regression.

The only additions of note are Correia, and coming-off-elbow-surgery Worley. Gibson may or may not be ready, and/or healthy enough to take a rotation spot for part of the season, and if he does, succeed. Hendrics has done little to give one much optomisim.

I think there's a much stronger argument to be made that right now, the 2013 Twins are most likely several games worse than the 2012 Twins.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 10:11 AM
Right now, the 2013 Twins are still probably a better team than the 2012 Twins...

That's dubious, at best.

No centerfielder, no leadoff hitter. No additions to the middle infield. Nothing significant added to a very shallow bullpen that will likely be hard pressed to match last year's mediocrity. Outside of the rotation, the Twins were about as healthy as could be expected in 2012. The only 2012 starter who performed at a major league level is a pretty good candidate for some serious regression.

The only additions of note are Correia, and coming-off-elbow-surgery Worley. Gibson may or may not be ready, and/or healthy enough to take a rotation spot for part of the season, and if he does, succeed. Hendrics has done little to give one much optomisim.

I think there's a much stronger argument to be made that right now, the 2013 Twins are most likely several games worse than the 2012 Twins.

I think you're underestimating just how bad the starting rotation was in 2012. The rotation was 29th in baseball in ERA while the bullpen was 17th in ERA while pitching the third most innings. Stabilize that rotation at all and you're looking at a much better overall ERA because so many of those bullpen innings won't be going to the Jeff Grays of the world, dragging down the bullpen ERA.

This team is still bad, there's not doubt about it. But I'd wager that just the Worley acquisition makes them slightly better overall (and there's a chance Correia contributes something, though I wouldn't bet on it). The offense has certainly taken a knock and while some guys are due to regress, there's also room for improvement in some areas (a full season of Parmelee vs. Revere, Morneau continuing to adjust, etc.).

I don't buy into the argument that they're actually worse. The pitching staff, particularly in the first half of 2012, was historically terrible.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 10:21 AM
Right now, the 2013 Twins are still probably a better team than the 2012 Twins...

That's dubious, at best.

No centerfielder, no leadoff hitter. No additions to the middle infield. Nothing significant added to a very shallow bullpen that will likely be hard pressed to match last year's mediocrity. Outside of the rotation, the Twins were about as healthy as could be expected in 2012. The only 2012 starter who performed at a major league level is a pretty good candidate for some serious regression.

The only additions of note are Correia, and coming-off-elbow-surgery Worley. Gibson may or may not be ready, and/or healthy enough to take a rotation spot for part of the season, and if he does, succeed. Hendrics has done little to give one much optomisim.

I think there's a much stronger argument to be made that right now, the 2013 Twins are most likely several games worse than the 2012 Twins.

I think you're underestimating just how bad the starting rotation was in 2012. The rotation was 29th in baseball in ERA while the bullpen was 17th in ERA while pitching the third most innings. Stabilize that rotation at all and you're looking at a much better overall ERA because so many of those bullpen innings won't be going to the Jeff Grays of the world, dragging down the bullpen ERA.

This team is still bad, there's not doubt about it. But I'd wager that just the Worley acquisition makes them slightly better overall (and there's a chance Correia contributes something, though I wouldn't bet on it). The offense has certainly taken a knock and while some guys are due to regress, there's also room for improvement in some areas (a full season of Parmelee vs. Revere, Morneau continuing to adjust, etc.).

I don't buy into the argument that they're actually worse. The pitching staff, particularly in the first half of 2012, was historically terrible.

I guess we'll see. 60% of that rotation is still in place, and I don't see how adding Correia fixes any of the other 40%. Worley is no sure thing either.

im also of the opinion the Twins are done adding FA starters, so there's that.

Rick Niedermann
12-11-2012, 10:26 AM
This just makes no sense. Why not just go with Deduno, DeVries or even Blackburn. Correia is very much like Blackburn. So 10 million this year for bad pitchers Blackburn and Correia. And another wasted 5 million next year.

Kobs
12-11-2012, 10:35 AM
I don't think people understand just how badthis offense could be.

Oldgoat_MN
12-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Very difficult to see an upside here. Deduno would be more interesting.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 10:59 AM
No, this is really that bad. It's not an overreaction to say so. The killer is 2014; Correia will have been blasted out of the rotation by then, but it's $5 million down the drain for a season that is hopefully when things can finally head in a positive direction.

This is the pipe dream people continue to cling to, that 2014 means anything. It's been clear for several weeks now that 2015 is the target date for serious contention. 2014 is when the team turns the corner, but should not be expected to really go places quite yet. 2013 is all about laying groundwork where it is possible, and otherwise riding it out with as presentable a team as possible. Two-year signings (and guys such as Willingham who will be with us in that period) will make sense in this last light, and have no bearing on the real story of 2015.

I'm not thrilled with Correia, as I was hoping for somewhat better "hold the fort" signings, but ultimately the $10M spent will not hold the team back in either year.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 11:03 AM
Is 6:30am too early to start drinking or to late to stop?

That one goes into my quotes file. Thanks.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 11:06 AM
Oh, what I'd give to know what unsuccessful offers the Twins have made.

Did they simply misread the market and fail to open the checkbook when middle-tier pitchers were signing early or are pitchers really that adverse to signing in Minnesota? Are they now just desperate? Are they trying to keep the payroll below $85 million.

How I wish I knew what was really going on here.

Me too, and this is why 99% of the comments (including mine) are just jabber.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 11:10 AM
So if Appel is the pick at #4 in the June draft, does he go right into the #3 spot in the rotation or does he still get sent to Ft. Myers?

clutterheart
12-11-2012, 11:11 AM
Here is a real paradigm shift. Time to trade Mauer and let the real rebuild start.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 11:15 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

Twins Fan From Afar
12-11-2012, 11:19 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

Yes, but Scott Diamond (the top pitcher on your list) conceivably could -- should -- improve, and will be earning, what, $500,000 this season?

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 11:19 AM
This just makes no sense. Why not just go with Deduno, DeVries or even Blackburn. Correia is very much like Blackburn. So 10 million this year for bad pitchers Blackburn and Correia. And another wasted 5 million next year.

Stop being intentionally obtuse or too lazy to go look it up, or whatever. Sure their total numbers for the last 3 years are similar. The major difference is the direction they are trending in. As of last season, Correia is a considerably better option than Blackburn.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 11:21 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

I think most people think Diamond is due to regress. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop anyway.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 11:22 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

Scott Diamond makes $500k, many here expect regression from him, he pitched 2012 in the AL, and he still posted a FiP half a run lower than Correira.

Oh yeah, and he's not 32.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 11:25 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

Yes, but Scott Diamond (the top pitcher on your list) conceivably could -- should -- improve



I think most people think Diamond is due to regress. I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall anyway.

Oh My... That didn't take long to get two different projections on Diamond.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 11:26 AM
Correia struck out 4.68 hitters per nine innings last year, tied for third-worst among qualified pitchers. He had the second-lowest percentage of swinging strikes in the majors.

Twins Fan From Afar
12-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Here are the stats of 2 Pitchers from the 2012 season:


W L ERA G GS IP H R ER HR BB S0 AVG. WHIP

12 9 3.54 27 27 173.0 184 76 68 17 31 90 .274 1.24
12 11 4.21 32 28 171.0 176 89 80 20 46 89 .267 1.30

One of these Pitchers we seem to like and the other pitcher is causing a negative reaction from Twins Daily Posters and the usually sensible Twins Daily management as well.

Just wanted to point this out... Everyone can go back to lighting your torches and throwing stones.

Yes, but Scott Diamond (the top pitcher on your list) conceivably could -- should -- improve



I think most people think Diamond is due to regress. I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall anyway.

Oh My... That didn't take long to get two different projections on Diamond.

Don't worry ... my opinion on Diamond is uneducated!
I wonder whether Diamond or Correia is more likely to improve on their past season's numbers.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 11:30 AM
What does Diamond make again? Diamond pitched in the AL, while Marquis, er, Ponson, er, Hernandez, er...Ortiz, er, I mean Correia pitched in the NL.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 11:31 AM
Diamond is on a year to year deal. He pitched in the AL. He makes the league minimum. He is younger. He was not sent to the pen last year. The numbers need to be put in context.

Rube
12-11-2012, 11:34 AM
Sure this signing sucks, and everyone seems to agree that signing no one would be better. But if TR did sign no one everyone would be complaining about that also. Guy can't win - unless he spends $100 million on pitching.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 11:40 AM
''We want the kind of pitchers we haven't had enough of," Twins assistant general manager Rob Antony said. "Pitchers who can miss bats."

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 11:40 AM
No one is asking Ryan to spend 100 million on pitching. One legit pitcher is around 13-15 per year. Add in one or two flyers for less than 5MM per year, and the pitching budget is less than what Mauer makes. Is that really unreasonable?

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Sure this signing sucks, and everyone seems to agree that signing no one would be better. But if TR did sign no one everyone would be complaining about that also. Guy can't win - unless he spends $100 million on pitching.

Poor guy...had 30M to spend after getting Worley, was only looking for pitchers, and really only needed two more. I feel for him.

He has never spent on pitching...

gmarais66
12-11-2012, 11:42 AM
I don't think I have seen more negativity or anger over a single topic that has been posted on TD. I think most of it is just disappointment this signing isn't a bigger fish. Sure, Correia isn't a high profile strikeout pitcher, but lets give him a chance, before we burn him at the stake. Personally I like this signing. I envision Correia being very similar to Pavano in his first two seasons with the Twins. I think he's a guy that can go out there and keep the Twins in the game and give them a chance to win. These comparisons to Blackburn and Walters are more than a little ridiculous. Apparently all this snow has frozen people's brains and they've already forgotten how absolutely horrible the Twins' pitching was last season. Here's a refresher:

Liriano, 3-10, 5.31 ERA, 1.44 WHIP
Blackburn, 4-9, 7.39 ERA, 1.71 WHIP
Walters, 2-5, 5.69 ERA, 1.51 WHIP
Hendriks, 1-8, 5.59 ERA, 1.55 WHIP

Are the memories coming back now? To say these guys are equal to or better than Correia is absolute hogwash. He'll definitely be an upgrade to the rotation and I'm confident TR will sign a more significant name to add to the rotation, in the coming weeks.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 11:45 AM
A. I'm not really defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but I really don't know that TR signing Correia First necessarily means that he was TR's first choice either.

B. My post wasn't meant to slam Diamond or directly cause a comparison between the two. Comparing players is impossible. I just wanted to point out that the difference between Diamond and Correia when it comes to numbers in 2012 are very similiar.

C. Similiar numbers simply points out that it's possible that we are losing our minds a little here.

D. I'm as shocked by the salary as anyone but the market is the market and we have little control over that... Much like we can't control the price of gas.

E. Age is why he's making 5 Million and Diamond is making 500,000. That's the way baseball is structured. If Diamond was eligible for FA... The salary for Diamond would change... It's really a non-point to make.

F. Fielding Independant Stats will always be tough on pitchers with low K-Rates.

G. The Difference in ERA between the two over 170 Innings is 12 earned runs. A lot of factors can make up the difference in 12 runs over the year. One Ben Revere catch at the right time... Can save you 4 earned runs in a single inning. It isn't worth wringing your hands over.

H. Next year... Correia could be at 4.05 and Diamond could be at 4.35... Things change.

I. I'm not defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but the Blackburn and Marquis comparisons are a bit much. Blackburn and Marquis had ERA's over 8 for the Twins in 2012.

J. LOL... I'm sure your torches are still lit.

Rube
12-11-2012, 11:46 AM
No one is asking Ryan to spend 100 million on pitching. One legit pitcher is around 13-15 per year. Add in one or two flyers for less than 5MM per year, and the pitching budget is less than what Mauer makes. Is that really unreasonable?

To get a pitcher making 13 - 15 per year they will want a multi year deal (Haren is the exception) plus the $5 M flyers. Thus the $100 million.

I agree that was never in the cards from the beginning. TR has never done it and never will. I just wish they would shed a little more light on what goes on behind the scenes - otherwise, like the commentors said above - all this bantering is uninformed gibberish.

nicksaviking
12-11-2012, 11:59 AM
This would barely register with people if Ryan hadn't made it a 2 year deal. Why Ryan gave only his SECOND EVER multi year deal to a starter not currently under contract with the team, to Kevin Correia is so bizare. I'm sure his arguement would have been, well if I didn't give him 2 years we wouldn't have gotten him. So what? You could have gotten the same quality pitcher in a month or two for one year. The money's not the issue, the years and the fact that now he won't possibly be DFA'd like last years screw up Marquis is the problem. No one can be thrilled that we get to discuss Correia's role with the team at this time next year too.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 11:59 AM
100 million over 5 years? That is what a good team costs. Why is spending that bad or wrong for a team getting $25MM more in revenue next year?

Dave T
12-11-2012, 12:28 PM
If this is such a bad signing, why were other teams also chasing Correia? I think he picked the right year to be a free agent.

70charger
12-11-2012, 12:38 PM
A. I'm not really defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but I really don't know that TR signing Correia First necessarily means that he was TR's first choice either.

B. My post wasn't meant to slam Diamond or directly cause a comparison between the two. Comparing players is impossible. I just wanted to point out that the difference between Diamond and Correia when it comes to numbers in 2012 are very similiar.

C. Similiar numbers simply points out that it's possible that we are losing our minds a little here.

D. I'm as shocked by the salary as anyone but the market is the market and we have little control over that... Much like we can't control the price of gas.

E. Age is why he's making 5 Million and Diamond is making 500,000. That's the way baseball is structured. If Diamond was eligible for FA... The salary for Diamond would change... It's really a non-point to make.

F. Fielding Independant Stats will always be tough on pitchers with low K-Rates.

G. The Difference in ERA between the two over 170 Innings is 12 earned runs. A lot of factors can make up the difference in 12 runs over the year. One Ben Revere catch at the right time... Can save you 4 earned runs in a single inning. It isn't worth wringing your hands over.

H. Next year... Correia could be at 4.05 and Diamond could be at 4.35... Things change.

I. I'm not defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but the Blackburn and Marquis comparisons are a bit much. Blackburn and Marquis had ERA's over 8 for the Twins in 2012.

J. LOL... I'm sure your torches are still lit.

This is very well-reasoned, and I appreciate that amid all of the negative hyperbole.

Btw, I'm not going to defend the signing either. I think the second year is pretty ridiculous. But when we're constantly ripping on the GM for not just going out and throwing money at pitchers, and then ripping on him for throwing money at a pitcher, things seem a little skewed to me.

In any case, I can't see how this makes the Twins better. But I can't see how it would make them worse either. And given the circumstances, I find that to be an important distinction, seeing as Blackburn, Walters, Deduno, and Devries would indeed make the team worse. Maybe this is what it costs to tread water in this free agency year?

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:43 PM
You guys must really not like Terry Ryan and Kevin Correia. I post a positive note on Correia and it's gone in less then a minute. Simply amazing!
i posted a negitive note and it was also gone ,hahaha

snepp
12-11-2012, 12:47 PM
I'm not thrilled with Correia, as I was hoping for somewhat better "hold the fort" signings, but ultimately the $10M spent will not hold the team back in either year.

We were told just this past season they didn't have any additional money to improve the team when even a few million could have improved the bullpen. Ultimately that $5 million next year could hurt the team.

chuuke
12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
Uhhhmmm, can you repeat the part, about the stuff?

...with the things...

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 12:55 PM
A. I'm not really defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but I really don't know that TR signing Correia First necessarily means that he was TR's first choice either.

B. My post wasn't meant to slam Diamond or directly cause a comparison between the two. Comparing players is impossible. I just wanted to point out that the difference between Diamond and Correia when it comes to numbers in 2012 are very similiar.

C. Similiar numbers simply points out that it's possible that we are losing our minds a little here.

D. I'm as shocked by the salary as anyone but the market is the market and we have little control over that... Much like we can't control the price of gas.

E. Age is why he's making 5 Million and Diamond is making 500,000. That's the way baseball is structured. If Diamond was eligible for FA... The salary for Diamond would change... It's really a non-point to make.

F. Fielding Independant Stats will always be tough on pitchers with low K-Rates.

G. The Difference in ERA between the two over 170 Innings is 12 earned runs. A lot of factors can make up the difference in 12 runs over the year. One Ben Revere catch at the right time... Can save you 4 earned runs in a single inning. It isn't worth wringing your hands over.

H. Next year... Correia could be at 4.05 and Diamond could be at 4.35... Things change.

I. I'm not defending the signing... He wouldn't have been my first choice but the Blackburn and Marquis comparisons are a bit much. Blackburn and Marquis had ERA's over 8 for the Twins in 2012.

J. LOL... I'm sure your torches are still lit.

This is very well-reasoned, and I appreciate that amid all of the negative hyperbole.

Btw, I'm not going to defend the signing either. I think the second year is pretty ridiculous. But when we're constantly ripping on the GM for not just going out and throwing money at pitchers, and then ripping on him for throwing money at a pitcher, things seem a little skewed to me.

In any case, I can't see how this makes the Twins better. But I can't see how it would make them worse either. And given the circumstances, I find that to be an important distinction, seeing as Blackburn, Walters, Deduno, and Devries would indeed make the team worse. Maybe this is what it costs to tread water in this free agency year?

The second year was the part that concerned me as well... However... Without direct knowledge of the negotiation, or direct knowledge of all negotiations... I can't make any assumptions on why.

The one thing that I assume quite comfortably was that TR didn't say... "Kevin... Here's an extra year for the hell of it".

I'm glad you see the no win situation Our GM and all GM's are put in. I had no doubt that you woud see that... You've always been balanced in the majority of your posts. I enjoy reading them.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 12:56 PM
Diamond's ERA plus last year was 115. Correia's was 88.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Diamond's ERA plus last year was 115. Correia's was 88.

The majority of stats are all derived from the same basic information... Each different stat will simply add or takeaway from the same basic stats.

Diamonds ERA was better than Correia in 2012... So it stands to reason that it would be better after it is adjusted for ballpark.

Diamonds ERA was better based on 12 Earned runs over 170 innings.

jimbo92107
12-11-2012, 01:05 PM
The paradigm is an interesting concept in that it attempts to describe a body of ideas within a functional metaphor. For instance, Darwin's "survival of the fittest" paradigm for evolution is commonly misunderstood to imply that physical strength is an invaluable survival trait, ignoring the fact that butterflies and petunias...exist, and have survived for as long as any other living thing.

Twins management, like Oakland's, realized that exceptional strength, speed and other impressive physical attributes do not necessarily make for a great ballplayer, and that having a team of such people (whose services usually come at a premium price) does not mean you will win a World Series. "Chemistry" is the paradigm that has floated around sports for a long time, and every team has its own secret sauce for what kind of chemistry will produce a winning formula. Teams like the Twins, A's and Rays have been trying to find a formula for winning that does not require such expensive ingredients.

Indeedy do, a pitcher like Kevin Correia, lacking overpowering stuff, must fit successfully within a more complex system of interacting parts. Correia cannot simply walk out there like CC Sabbathia and strike people out or induce easy grounders and pop-ups. As a "pitch to contact" type, Correia must work in concert with a very good defense, one that understands how to anticipate the interaction between Correia's every pitch and the likely response from each hitter. In other words, behind him he needs a bunch of friggin' psychic geniuses that field like Derek Jeter.

That's not asking too much, is it?

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 01:10 PM
The paradigm is an interesting concept in that it attempts to describe a body of ideas within a functional metaphor. For instance, Darwin's "survival of the fittest" paradigm for evolution is commonly misunderstood to imply that physical strength is an invaluable survival trait, ignoring the fact that butterflies and petunias...exist, and have survived for as long as any other living thing.

Twins management, like Oakland's, realized that exceptional strength, speed and other impressive physical attributes do not necessarily make for a great ballplayer, and that having a team of such people (whose services usually come at a premium price) does not mean you will win a World Series. "Chemistry" is the paradigm that has floated around sports for a long time, and every team has its own secret sauce for what kind of chemistry will produce a winning formula. Teams like the Twins, A's and Rays have been trying to find a formula for winning that does not require such expensive ingredients.

Indeedy do, a pitcher like Kevin Correia, lacking overpowering stuff, must fit successfully within a more complex system of interacting parts. Correia cannot simply walk out there like CC Sabbathia and strike people out or induce easy grounders and pop-ups. As a "pitch to contact" type, Correia must work in concert with a very good defense, one that understands how to anticipate the interaction between Correia's every pitch and the likely response from each hitter. In other words, behind him he needs a bunch of friggin' psychic geniuses that field like Derek Jeter.

That's not asking too much, is it?

I agree... I've always said that the fastest way to improve ERA's is to put a bunch of guys out there behind the pitcher who get to balls that most don't get to,

joeboo_22
12-11-2012, 01:14 PM
If this was a 1 year 5 or even 6 million dollar deal in February I wouldn't have a problem with it. But a 2 year deal in December is the big problem with this. There is other pitching out there. I'd rather have TR wait it out a bit and see what is there in January and February then to make this signing now.

Willihammer
12-11-2012, 01:22 PM
No defense can keep balls in the park. We are talking about a guy who posted a 5.40 ERA playing in Petco park in front of a defense which, according to UZR, saved 50 runs.

The year before, same park, and an ERA of 3.91 in front of a defense that cost the team 10 runs.

There isn't much, if any correlation between Correia's ERA and the quality of the defenses he was pitching in front of. Instead you will find the correlation is stronger between HR/FB, and ERA (and IP).

This is a 10 million gamble on batted ball luck, make no mistake about it.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 01:34 PM
Indeedy do, a pitcher like Kevin Correia, lacking overpowering stuff, must fit successfully within a more complex system of interacting parts. Correia cannot simply walk out there like CC Sabbathia and strike people out or induce easy grounders and pop-ups. As a "pitch to contact" type, Correia must work in concert with a very good defense, one that understands how to anticipate the interaction between Correia's every pitch and the likely response from each hitter. In other words, behind him he needs a bunch of friggin' psychic geniuses that field like Derek Jeter.
Therein lies the problem. The Twins might not have one stand-out defender on the field this year, having just dealt away their two best gloves.

Riverbrian
12-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Indeedy do, a pitcher like Kevin Correia, lacking overpowering stuff, must fit successfully within a more complex system of interacting parts. Correia cannot simply walk out there like CC Sabbathia and strike people out or induce easy grounders and pop-ups. As a "pitch to contact" type, Correia must work in concert with a very good defense, one that understands how to anticipate the interaction between Correia's every pitch and the likely response from each hitter. In other words, behind him he needs a bunch of friggin' psychic geniuses that field like Derek Jeter.
Therein lies the problem. The Twins might not have one stand-out defender on the field this year, having just dealt away their two best gloves.

In my mind... This is a much more legitimate argument.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 01:40 PM
Indeedy do, a pitcher like Kevin Correia, lacking overpowering stuff, must fit successfully within a more complex system of interacting parts. Correia cannot simply walk out there like CC Sabbathia and strike people out or induce easy grounders and pop-ups. As a "pitch to contact" type, Correia must work in concert with a very good defense, one that understands how to anticipate the interaction between Correia's every pitch and the likely response from each hitter. In other words, behind him he needs a bunch of friggin' psychic geniuses that field like Derek Jeter.
Therein lies the problem. The Twins might not have one stand-out defender on the field this year, having just dealt away their two best gloves.
You underestimate the Maestro.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 01:49 PM
You underestimate the Maestro.

Center field is probably the team's best hope for a high-caliber defender, and it looks like the options there are a rookie or a guy who's played 5 MLB games in CF.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 01:59 PM
You underestimate the Maestro.

The discussion about his defense, which I think can be major-league average, doesn't touch on why Maestro would be a depressing concept as a starting CF.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm confident TR will sign a more significant name to add to the rotation, in the coming weeks.

This is key. If he gets someone good, then had this signing occurred later we'd be nodding in agreement about solidifying the staff or whatnot. But... until that other signing occurs, I'm cautiously pessimistic that this is as good as it gets, and that a slightly more expensive option like Saunders woulda coulda shoulda been better.

CDog
12-11-2012, 02:20 PM
Right now, the 2013 Twins are still probably a better team than the 2012 Twins...

That's dubious, at best.

No centerfielder, no leadoff hitter. No additions to the middle infield. Nothing significant added to a very shallow bullpen that will likely be hard pressed to match last year's mediocrity. Outside of the rotation, the Twins were about as healthy as could be expected in 2012. The only 2012 starter who performed at a major league level is a pretty good candidate for some serious regression.

The only additions of note are Correia, and coming-off-elbow-surgery Worley. Gibson may or may not be ready, and/or healthy enough to take a rotation spot for part of the season, and if he does, succeed. Hendrics has done little to give one much optomisim.

I think there's a much stronger argument to be made that right now, the 2013 Twins are most likely several games worse than the 2012 Twins.

I agree that the team as it stands now doesn't make me feel as confident (or makes me feel more pessimistic?) as the one they had heading into spring training of 2012. As the team came out of the spring or at least a month or two into the season once it had become clear that Baker, Pavano, Marquis, Blackburn, AND Liriano were going to give little to nothing...from that point I don't think the team as it stands now is much worse. Is it? Maybe I just can't let myself think that it could be. Also...I haven't been able to let myself think you're right in your later post that they aren't going to sign another FA starter. And I'm well aware that that may be more hope than expectation.

CDog
12-11-2012, 02:34 PM
otherwise, like the commentors said above - all this bantering is uninformed gibberish.

Oh stewardess! I speak gibberish.

Hehehehe. That was much needed after reading all the threads today. Thank you, sir.

savvyspy
12-11-2012, 03:04 PM
Paradigms not really justified?? There is a 25 year tsunami of evidence that proves the Twins love pitch to contact guys and are cheap. The most frightning thing about the last few years is you used to get the sense that the Twins real goal was to make the playoffs and hope. They were reletively successful at it. Solid seasons followed by god awful play in the playoffs but it was all fine and good and made for pleasurable summer nights at the ballpark.

Now this front office is trying to sell this scam that the price of player forces them to not look at free agents and then piss away money on clowns like Correia who you can bank won't be on the major league roster by July.

There is NOTHING about Correia that makes him worth signing a minor league deal. He is not a starting pitcher on an ok non-playoff NL team and will be a complete disaster in the American League.

He is basically a NL version of Nick Blackburn. The only thing that makes any sense is this was purly a PR move so the Pohlads didn't get called out for cutting salary and pocketing the money.

I suppose Correia is a nice enough guy and we can be happy for his new fat bank account. At least the $10 million isn't rotting away in some Pohlad vault somewhere.

I'd comfortably give this signing an F

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 03:31 PM
Come on, JR did his best. He floated lucrative 2 year/$10M offers out to every pitcher on the market. Correia just happened to respond first.

dl3mk3
12-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Because a couple out of reach (for the twins) starting pitchers have signed does not mean the market has "dried up", this was a terrible signing considering the pitchers still available.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
12-11-2012, 04:14 PM
If the A's sign Kevin Correia to this deal, it still sucks for them like it sucks for us.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:21 PM
I don't think people understand just how badthis offense could be.

Exactly. We can talk about the pitching being moderately better, but has anyone looked at the potential lineup and the players at high risk for regressions? It ain't pretty.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 04:24 PM
I don't think people understand just how badthis offense could be.

Exactly. We can talk about the pitching being moderately better, but has anyone looked at the potential lineup and the players at high risk for regressions? It ain't pretty.

Oh, the offense might be bad, no doubt about it. On the other hand, they need to let the kids play to see what they have going forward.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:27 PM
Oh, the offense might be bad, no doubt about it. On the other hand, they need to let the kids play to see what they have going forward.

No doubt. But then we are back to 2013 and 2014 being more about 2015 than any actual attempt to contend or get better. 2013 doesn't look better than 2012, one could argue it looks worse.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 04:30 PM
Oh, the offense might be bad, no doubt about it. On the other hand, they need to let the kids play to see what they have going forward.

No doubt. But then we are back to 2013 and 2014 being more about 2015 than any actual attempt to contend or get better. 2013 doesn't look better than 2012, one could argue it looks worse.

Well, I'd argue that it all depends on how the kids play. Is Parmelee Justin's replacement? Will the real Trevor Plouffe please stand up?

Most of the offensive issues revolve those two questions, in my opinion.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 04:37 PM
Our offense issues start with who replaces our #1 and #2 hitters...our setup guys...

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:41 PM
Well, I'd argue that it all depends on how the kids play. Is Parmelee Justin's replacement? Will the real Trevor Plouffe please stand up?

Most of the offensive issues revolve those two questions, in my opinion.

Even still you're talking about our likely 7th and 8th hitters in the lineup. As Puck rightly points out, there is a lot of questions about the table setting as well.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 05:44 PM
So because the offense sucks, maybe, they should not try to get good pitching?

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 05:54 PM
So because the offense sucks, maybe, they should not try to get good pitching?

Follow the train. Brock said 2013 could be a better team. There are plenty of reasons to suspect that isn't the case, the offense included.

Karl
12-11-2012, 05:58 PM
Can't it just mean that this is the only type of pitcher that is willing to sign with the Twins?

A) They have lost nearly 100 the last two seasons.
B) Their infield and presumably their outfield defense will be unforgiveably sucky to just short of mediocre.

Let's say you moved to a new state and wanted to play in a townball league. You had your choice of playing on a good team with lots of fans and good weather, or a struggling team with frustrated fans and crappy weather.

Why on God's green earth would you choose the sucky team unless they WILDLY overpaid you to play.

I think more than anything we can draw the conclusion that the top/mid level starters do not want to pitch on this team, for this medical staff and in front of this infield and outfield.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Well, I'd argue that it all depends on how the kids play. Is Parmelee Justin's replacement? Will the real Trevor Plouffe please stand up?

Most of the offensive issues revolve those two questions, in my opinion.

Even still you're talking about our likely 7th and 8th hitters in the lineup. As Puck rightly points out, there is a lot of questions about the table setting as well.

Sure, but I think Parmelee and Plouffe will have more of an impact offensively. If the table setting sucks (and there's a good chance it will), then Plouffe and Parmelee will be the guys driving in Mauer, Morneau, and Willingham (aka. the guys who don't suck). A lot will depend on if those two are .700 OPS (or worse) players or .800 OPS players.

ThePuck
12-11-2012, 07:01 PM
Diamond's ERA plus last year was 115. Correia's was 88.

The majority of stats are all derived from the same basic information... Each different stat will simply add or takeaway from the same basic stats.

Diamonds ERA was better than Correia in 2012... So it stands to reason that it would be better after it is adjusted for ballpark.

Diamonds ERA was better based on 12 Earned runs over 170 innings.

Point is, they were not basically the same as some have tried to say....and then add one was a rookie, one is a seasoned vet

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 07:07 PM
Man, if only they'd spent a "pair-a-dimes" on Correia.

*crickets*

That's the kind of humor this signing deserves. (And the actual monetary sum his pitching merits.)

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 07:19 PM
Injuries will play a big part if Willingham or Mauer go down it's all over.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 07:25 PM
If Diamond goes down and Worley can't pitch, Correia and Blackburn will be the new aces.

Top Gun
12-12-2012, 12:42 AM
Very nice, Amen

Shane Wahl
12-12-2012, 12:58 AM
There are some strange comments. Barring another concussion, Morneau could really be a massive difference-maker in this lineup. If that guy is back to 80+ normal then it will mean good things. This coupled with a full season of Plouffe and Parmelee will be interesting. And then there is Aaron Hicks who has a chance to step in for Denard Span. Let's see where that goes. I want a lineup of Hicks-Mauer-Willingham-Morneau-Doumit-Plouffe-Parmelee-Dozier-Florimon/Carroll. I think that lineup may be able to be very productive. The key really is just moving everyone up a spot. Gardenhire is not intelligent, so this may not happen. The CF doesn't really matter in my view--if it's Mastro, let him try batting leadoff, but CLEARLY he cannot be followed by anyone not named Mauer. If Gardenhire simply fixed is diseased oldster thinking about baseball he can immediately limit the loss of Span by properly fixing the lineup. I think that Hicks will be the best leadoff option that the Twins have. But Mauer must bat second.

Teflon
12-12-2012, 03:24 PM
Don't knock paradigms. After all, Carl Pohlad got richer than Midas getting a quarter back on all the paradigms he lent. (Plus foreclosing on the occasional farm here and there.)