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darin617
12-10-2012, 09:40 PM
I just read that the Twins are close to signing Kevin Correia to a 2 yr deal.I hope the second yr is a club option. I feel I would rather have Brett Myers than Correia. Bad choice Mr Ryan, now go sign Edwin Jackson so we can be done with the starting rotation.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-10-2012, 09:43 PM
not a big fan of the move... he's a career 4.5 ERA guy who spent a long career in the NL with a low K rate...

Is it better than trotting out devries? Of course... but not my first choice.

Jeremy Nygaard
12-10-2012, 09:43 PM
I just read that the Twins are close to signing Kevin Correia to a 2 yr deal.I hope the second yr is a club option. I feel I would rather have Brett Myers than Correia. Bad choice Mr Ryan, now go sign Edwin Jackson so we can be done with the starting rotation.

I'm curious to see the figures. If it's less than half (or around half) of what Blanton signed for... I can take it.

Dez Tobin
12-10-2012, 09:45 PM
Jon Heyman says deal is done. I'm less than impressed with this signing though it doesn't surprise me. As Aaron Gleeman noted, Correia has the lowest strikeout rate among right-handed pitchers since 2011. Typical pitch-to-contact Twins pitcher.

joeboo_22
12-10-2012, 09:47 PM
2 years 10 million. He is Nick Blackburn. I had the guy on my fantasy team the year he had a sub 4 era in San Diego. He was a pitcher built for San Diego where the ball doesn't fly. I'm not a big fan of this move either

J-Dog Dungan
12-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Total money paid over the contract is $10 million. Contract is two years.

Dez Tobin
12-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Edit: Someone beat me to it.

jorgenswest
12-10-2012, 09:49 PM
A mistake if it is more than one year.

edavis0308
12-10-2012, 09:51 PM
Well TR was right with them trying to give money away. Gag me. I'd rather have Devries or Hendriks starting in that place.

J-Dog Dungan
12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
2 years 10 million. He is Nick Blackburn. I had the guy on my fantasy team the year he had a sub 4 era in San Diego. He was a pitcher built for San Diego where the ball doesn't fly. I'm not a big fan of this move either
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here. Not a great move by the Twins, but one they clearly needed to make.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 09:54 PM
ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Twins have agreed to a two-year, $10 million deal with Kevin Correia.

The 32-year-old right-hander posted an underwhelming 4.21 ERA and 1.30 WHIP in 171 innings this past summer for the Pirates but should get a nice boost in fantasy value with the move to the more pitcher-friendly confines of Target Field. Correia also drew serious free agent interest this offseason from the Rockies, Orioles, Brewers, Royals and at least one team from Japan.
Related: Twins (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/min/twins)

Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitte (https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/278343825901121536)

nicksaviking
12-10-2012, 09:55 PM
So the first multi year deal deal Ryan gives to a starter not already under contract since Bob Tewksbury in 1998 goes to.....Kevin Correa? What the hell is going on here? Rick Anderson must be thrilled that Ryan is trying to sabbotage his job.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 09:55 PM
Heh. Baker is lookin mighty juicy again.

PseudoSABR
12-10-2012, 09:56 PM
Meh. 2013 looks like a punt more and more. Hopefully, the guy becomes a tradeable asset because the contract isn't that bad.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 09:58 PM
Meh. 2013 looks like a punt more and more. Hopefully, the guy becomes a tradeable asset because the contract isn't that bad.

So you defended the take that Baker was overpaid at 5.5M for one year and now defend 2yrs and 10M to Marquis Part II as not too bad?

nicksaviking
12-10-2012, 10:03 PM
So disgusted, why make a move at all if it's Correia. Way to burn all your bonus points with the Revere trade Mr. Ryan, your accumen when it comes to starting pitching is terrible.

PseudoSABR
12-10-2012, 10:05 PM
Meh. 2013 looks like a punt more and more. Hopefully, the guy becomes a tradeable asset because the contract isn't that bad.

So you defended the take that Baker was overpaid at 5.5M for one year and now defend 2yrs and 10M to Marquis Part II as not too bad?You call what I said a defense?

My problem with the Baker deal was that there was NO second year. The amount paid was not the issue.

Shane Wahl
12-10-2012, 10:05 PM
Jon Heyman says deal is done. I'm less than impressed with this signing though it doesn't surprise me. As Aaron Gleeman noted, Correia has the lowest strikeout rate among right-handed pitchers since 2011. Typical pitch-to-contact Twins pitcher.

They might as well just let Blackburn pitch instead of adding another Blackburn for the same goddamn money that Blackburn is making.

rhino510
12-10-2012, 10:07 PM
proven big league pitcher, pitches to contact, target field big park. inning eater, healthy. worth every bit of 5 million. on another note james shileds was not worth giving up a top prospect meyers is. does kc really think they are playoff contenders. doubtful.

jharaldson
12-10-2012, 10:09 PM
Correia isn't the best choice out there but he isn't awful. If you compare him to Blanton and McCarthy he has the worst K/9 and BB/9 but his GB% is best of the three.



Season
Team
W
L
G
GS
IP
K/9
BB/9
HR/9
GB%
ERA
FIP
xFIP
WAR


Correira
Pirates (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=27&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
12
11
32
28
171
4.68
2.42
1.05
51.20%
4.21
4.43
4.34
0.9


Blanton
2 Teams
10
13
31
30
191
7.82
1.6
1.37
44.60%
4.71
3.91
3.39
2.4


McCarthy (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
Athletics (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=10&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0)
8
6
18
18
111
5.92
1.95
0.81
40.50%
3.24
3.76
4.23
1.8

joeboo_22
12-10-2012, 10:09 PM
2 years 10 million. He is Nick Blackburn. I had the guy on my fantasy team the year he had a sub 4 era in San Diego. He was a pitcher built for San Diego where the ball doesn't fly. I'm not a big fan of this move either
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here. Not a great move by the Twins, but one they clearly needed to make.

Petco was 26th in runs allowed where Target Field was 10th in 2012, in 2011 Target Field was 21st but Petco was 28th, in 2010 Target Field 19th while Petco was 26th. Petco

Shane Wahl
12-10-2012, 10:12 PM
"Proven big league pitcher" means what? Pitches to contact. Yes and that isn't good. Inning eater? How so. He had 171 last year and 198 in 2009, but the IP dropped in the middle two years, mostly due to the fact that he sucks.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
]You call what I said a defense?

My problem with the Baker deal was that there was NO second year. The amount paid was not the issue.

Someone said "5.5 guaranteed is excessive" I can post more if you can't remember what you said.

Many on this board were borderline laughing at the Cubs for overspending on Feldman and Baker. We guaranteed Correia almost as much money as they did for both of those players. Or as one high and mighty poster said here....25% of our available FA money for this year plus a guaranteed chunk for next year.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-10-2012, 10:14 PM
2 years 10 million. He is Nick Blackburn. I had the guy on my fantasy team the year he had a sub 4 era in San Diego. He was a pitcher built for San Diego where the ball doesn't fly. I'm not a big fan of this move either
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here. Not a great move by the Twins, but one they clearly needed to make.

Petco was 26th in runs allowed where Target Field was 10th in 2012, in 2011 Target Field was 21st but Petco was 28th, in 2010 Target Field 19th while Petco was 26th. Petco

Yeah... but Twins pitchers play at target field...

Ultima Ratio
12-10-2012, 10:17 PM
Phew, I thought we weren't going to sign an Ace this year.

kab21
12-10-2012, 10:19 PM
This probably won't be considered a decent move ever but I'm rather indifferent. He's a guy that can hold down the #4/5 spot hopefully. the important thing this offseason is getting the #2/3 starter that at least gives the team some resemblance of a starting rotation.

drjim
12-10-2012, 10:19 PM
My initial thought is I wonder if the Twins are really struggling to get anyone to sign here unless they really overpay. This isn't a fantasy baseball auction and these signings don't happen in a vacuum. If I was a free agent and had a couple of options at similar money I would think the Twins would be about last on the list.

edavis0308
12-10-2012, 10:20 PM
This probably won't be considered a decent move ever but I'm rather indifferent. He's a guy that can hold down the #4/5 spot hopefully. the important thing this offseason is getting the #2/3 starter that at least gives the team some resemblance of a starting rotation.

But... Correia IS the 2/3 starter ;)

PseudoSABR
12-10-2012, 10:23 PM
]You call what I said a defense?

My problem with the Baker deal was that there was NO second year. The amount paid was not the issue.

Someone said "5.5 guaranteed is excessive" I can post more if you can't remember what you said.

Many on this board were borderline laughing at the Cubs for overspending on Feldman and Baker. We guaranteed Correia almost as much money as they did for both of those players. Or as one high and mighty poster said here....25% of our available FA money for this year plus a guaranteed chunk for next year.As always, you are the master of context.

This is what I said:

The Cubs must think he'll have some trade value by midseason, otherwise I don't really get it from their end. 5.5 guaranteed is excessive. The lack of option years is troubling. If this is the deal the Twins gave Baker, I'd hoped we'd be pretty upset.
I'm so out of line.

To clarify, I hope that Correia pitches well enough to have trade value (either at midseason or offseason), just as I assumed that the Cubs signed Baker for a midseason deal. That's not an inconsistency, Levi.

I'm still not sure how much good that Baker deal does the Twins though, because I think he might take a minute to get back to productivity.

PseudoSABR
12-10-2012, 10:25 PM
My initial thought is I wonder if the Twins are really struggling to get anyone to sign here unless they really overpay. This isn't a fantasy baseball auction and these signings don't happen in a vacuum. If I was a free agent and had a couple of options at similar money I would think the Twins would be about last on the list.
I think you might be onto something, given the similar narrative coming out of Cleveland.

Twins Twerp
12-10-2012, 10:27 PM
Doesnt bother me unless this is the last pitcher added...then yikes. Hopefully 200 innings as a 4

mike wants wins
12-10-2012, 10:27 PM
How is this better than what they have?

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 10:28 PM
I'm still not sure how much good that Baker deal does the Twins though, because I think he might take a minute to get back to productivity.

This context shows what? You gave just as much billing to plugging that Baker was payed "excessively" (is this somehow different than overpaying?) as you did the option year. How that paragraph proves you didn't argue Baker was overpaid is baffling.

I'll repeat it: The Twins just guaranteed Kevin Correia as much money as the Cubs did for Feldman and Baker combined. After much laughing at the Cubs early on. I know who should be laughing now.

JP3700
12-10-2012, 10:29 PM
I don't love the signing, but I don't hate it either. Low risk, low reward. With Diamond and Correia in the rotation our infield defense better be sharp.

Hopefully this means TR is loading up $12-15 million per for a Sanchez, Marcum or Jackson. I'm not holding my breath though.

kab21
12-10-2012, 10:37 PM
How is this better than what they have?

I'm not sure if you watched last year but with a couple of injuries or pitchers that bomb the Twins are plugging pitchers in that are far worse. That's the problem with the Deduno/Devries argument. Those guys should be left as a last resort before things get really ugly. I'm not a big fan of this move though but whatever. I doubt they have a 100M payroll this year and I doubt this prevents them from signing anybody.


Doesnt bother me unless this is the last pitcher added...then yikes.

This is my concern also. There aren't that many #3 or better pitchers out there and a lot of teams looking for a starter.

Twins Twerp
12-10-2012, 10:42 PM
Can we admit its less gross than if our first signing would have been liriano or pavano?

jokin
12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
I don't love the signing, but I don't hate it either. Low risk, low reward. With Diamond and Correia in the rotation our infield defense better be sharp.

Hopefully this means TR is loading up $12-15 million per for a Sanchez, Marcum or Jackson. I'm not holding my breath though.

Time for a cleansing breath.

A few of the Twins apologists are all pink and puffy-cheeked and are undoubtedly still holding out their predictably unnatural hope, but I think Worley and Correia are it. Maybe there's a Joel Zumaya clone available?

On the bright side, both will be good candidates for eminent flippability back to the NL come July, so that Hermsen, Wimmers and the 2012 Cast from the "Fame" remake can close out the season in the starting rotation with Diamond (Gibson will likely be shut down or severely limited by the end of August).

Legend of the Arctic
12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
This move is so bad it defies words.

According to Fangraphs, Correia had a WAR of 0.8 over the last three seasons. Only one pitcher (minimum 300 IP) was worse, and that was Nick Blackburn. Third worst was former Twin Jason Marquis.

Yes, the Twins have now had the three worst pitchers of modern MLB on their roster in the past calendar year. And the best part is that they'll be paying Correia for two years, which means they probably won't even designate him for assignment when he inevitably gets lit up in his first 12 starts.

greengoblinrulz
12-10-2012, 10:46 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

edavis0308
12-10-2012, 10:47 PM
For the life of me, I want to know why it is reported that there is a cold market for Edwin Jackson. It's sad that I'd be ecstatic if they could actually sign him.

joeboo_22
12-10-2012, 10:49 PM
Can we admit its less gross than if our first signing would have been liriano or pavano?

IDK, I see more upside potential with both of them and I'm guessing they would both cost less. Would rather the Twins sign one of them and then bring in a 10-15 million a year guy

jokin
12-10-2012, 10:53 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

I remember. I know you and I were prime targets for the slings and arrows from the apologists.

It looks like my prediction of $85M might have been a bit of an overshoot. One could say that one apparent intent from these maneuvers at payroll paring is that TR is setting Gardy up for his early dismissal papers.

howeda7
12-10-2012, 10:59 PM
So the first multi year deal deal Ryan gives to a starter not already under contract since Bob Tewksbury in 1998 goes to.....Kevin Correa? What the hell is going on here? Rick Anderson must be thrilled that Ryan is trying to sabbotage his job.

If it works out as well as Tewksbury we should all be thrilled. I think I'd rather have Tewskbury. The 2012 version.

Brandon
12-10-2012, 11:05 PM
:banghead:

Why not just save the money or sign a different crappy pitcher to a 1 year deal so atleast its a 1 year deal.

Poll would you rather have DeVries or Correia in the rotation?

Lesser Dali
12-10-2012, 11:09 PM
This is how I look at it:

Terry Ryan is a ranger at a dog park. One of his job requirements is to pick up dog feces. The thing is, instead of throwing the feces into the garbage, Terry Ryan takes them home and makes models out of them. Kevin Correia is one of these models and he is entering him into a State Fair competition. The problem is this - the competition is a cake baking event. I cannot see how this can end well. Yuck.

CDog
12-10-2012, 11:14 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

As long as you're reaching for your own popsicle for gratification there, you should probably link to your "100%" guarantee that they would sign nobody for more than one year. Right?

notoriousgod71
12-10-2012, 11:15 PM
Does Ryan seriously not understand pitching or what the hell? Why even bother making a move if it's for a guy like Correia. Christ, he makes Blanton and Saunders look like steals.

joeboo_22
12-10-2012, 11:18 PM
I don't have a big problem with dumpster diving, but pay dumpster like prices, not solid #3 starter price and give a 2 year contract.

jokin
12-10-2012, 11:18 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

As long as you're reaching for your own popsicle for gratification there, you should probably link to your "100%" guarantee that they would sign nobody for more than one year. Right?

I think you would be thrown out of court by any random judge for using an invalid defense of the indefensible.

greengoblinrulz
12-10-2012, 11:21 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

As long as you're reaching for your own popsicle for gratification there, you should probably link to your "100%" guarantee that they would sign nobody for more than one year. Right?

absolutely am stunned by that!!!! This means that Diamond/Worley/Correia/Gibson are 80% of 2014s starting rotation. is Terry thinking he can flip these guys this summer/next offseason.....wow!!!
Funny thing is I had a list of 50 FA pitchers & picked 3 from the bottom 5/10 but I truly believed they would do it.
Ryan is old school & isnt a 21st century stats guy....so he's excited by a guy with double digit wins for 4 straight yrs.

Einstein
12-10-2012, 11:29 PM
Get those playoff tickets early people! We've got our ace! Oh wait, Kevin Correia? Sorry, I thought TR said he was after a "pretty darn good pitcher". Carry on folks. Nothing to see here.

CDog
12-10-2012, 11:32 PM
I don't have a big problem with dumpster diving, but pay dumpster like prices, not solid #3 starter price and give a 2 year contract.

What "solid 3" is getting only $5M in free agency at this point?

CDog
12-10-2012, 11:33 PM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

As long as you're reaching for your own popsicle for gratification there, you should probably link to your "100%" guarantee that they would sign nobody for more than one year. Right?

I think you would be thrown out of court by any random judge for using an invalid defense of the indefensible.

Who defended anything?

johnnydakota
12-10-2012, 11:42 PM
like i predicted, next up kevin slowey and the return of the man called stach ...
why does ryan not get it? why can he not understand the difference between an asset and a reject?
we havew better options in hermsen,deuno devries walters and blackTURD
guess ryan needed to remove payroll to qualify for his bonus for slashing payroll again

twinsnorth49
12-10-2012, 11:43 PM
Embarrassing, if there was one guy I could hate as much as Blackie it's Kevin f***ing Correia!! Damn TR, you're killing me! http://www.websmileys.com/sm/mad/1018.gif http://www.websmileys.com/sm/mad/076.gif

greengoblinrulz
12-10-2012, 11:49 PM
Not out of the realm of possiblity that ROC could have a more successful starting staff than MN this yr
Diamond....not sold on him
Worley......coming off bone chips, some think its a precursor to TJ surgery
Correia....nuff said
Hendriks....personally think he will break out huge this yr
Duensing......will move to pen with another pitcher acquired

AAA
Gibson....best starter with MLB stuff
Blackburn...many will defend him still due to 08/09
DeVries.....2nd best starter in 11'
Deduno....3rd best starter in 11'
Walters.....

Riverbrian
12-10-2012, 11:57 PM
I wish I had a Torch, Pitchfork and Noose store. I could make some cash with this crowd... TR and Kevin may need a strong Sheriff to hold you guys back or someone like Scout in "To Kill a Mockingbird".

He wouldn't have been my first choice and I still have sticker shock but I've seen him pitch a few times and he's got a tough side to him. I remember thinking that he reminded me of Pavano... 2009/2010 Pavano that is.

I remember Correia blanking the Twins this summer for 4 or 5 innings... Terry may remember that blanking as well... I think he out dueled Diamond that game but I could be wrong.

Put the pitchforks down. It's gonna be alright. However... I do admit... That Baker signing with Chicago... Looks amazing right now.

glunn
12-10-2012, 11:58 PM
I am going to hope that Ryan knows what he is doing on this one. If not, then he should be held accountable if Correia flops.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 12:06 AM
This should be every bit as successful as last winter's pitching additions. Nicely done TR. Now let's strike while the iron is hot and get Livan signed before the other GMs find out he's still available!

snepp
12-11-2012, 12:14 AM
That's the best use of $5 million they could come up with? Why not just light it on fire instead?

kab21
12-11-2012, 12:15 AM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

It's 12/11 and you've declared the offseason over? Keep up the negativity.

PseudoSABR
12-11-2012, 12:18 AM
I'm still not sure how much good that Baker deal does the Twins though, because I think he might take a minute to get back to productivity.

This context shows what? You gave just as much billing to plugging that Baker was payed "excessively" (is this somehow different than overpaying?) as you did the option year. How that paragraph proves you didn't argue Baker was overpaid is baffling.

I'll repeat it: The Twins just guaranteed Kevin Correia as much money as the Cubs did for Feldman and Baker combined. After much laughing at the Cubs early on. I know who should be laughing now.Baker is coming off injury, and part of the incentive of signing him was that he would regain more value in future years. Five and half million is fine if there's some incentive to paying him that much; I thought it was excessive, given his injury and no option year (that's not crazy, even if you think otherwise). Feldman is a swing man with a worse track record than Correia. Again, the only silver lining is if Correia pitches himself into tradeability.

Both deals are bucket loads of Meh, and trying characterize my opinion otherwise misrepresents it. You're trying to drive a wedge when our opinions probably aren't very far apart.

That said, I'd rather pay that 5.5 million more over two years to McCarthy, though there might be legitimate health concerns.

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:21 AM
2 years 10 million. He is Nick Blackburn. I had the guy on my fantasy team the year he had a sub 4 era in San Diego. He was a pitcher built for San Diego where the ball doesn't fly. I'm not a big fan of this move either
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here. Not a great move by the Twins, but one they clearly needed to make.

uhhmmm why? dont we already pay a waste of a pitcher 5 million named blackburn?
if we are building for the future, why sign a never was,a dinasour with no trade value?
wouldnt we be farther ahead to see if devries,deuno,walters vasquez hernandez hermsen have any future or value?

PseudoSABR
12-11-2012, 12:24 AM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

It's 12/11 and you've declared the offseason over? Keep up the negativity.Right. Signing Corriea makes little different in terms of future competitiveness or our actually capacity to sign star pitching.

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:28 AM
:banghead:

Why not just save the money or sign a different crappy pitcher to a 1 year deal so atleast its a 1 year deal.

Poll would you rather have DeVries or Correia in the rotation?

i would rather have butera...ok really deuno,devries,walters hermsen,vasquez,hernandez...at least find out if these guys are prospects or suspects, but correia has no value, a career 4.5 era add in the n.l-a.l conversion and your looking at an era between 4.75-5-00

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:33 AM
I don't love the signing, but I don't hate it either. Low risk, low reward. With Diamond and Correia in the rotation our infield defense better be sharp.

Hopefully this means TR is loading up $12-15 million per for a Sanchez, Marcum or Jackson. I'm not holding my breath though.

Time for a cleansing breath.

A few of the Twins apologists are all pink and puffy-cheeked and are undoubtedly still holding out their predictably unnatural hope, but I think Worley and Correia are it. Maybe there's a Joel Zumaya clone available?

On the bright side, both will be good candidates for eminent flippability back to the NL come July, so that Hermsen, Wimmers and the 2012 Cast from the "Fame" remake can close out the season in the starting rotation with Diamond (Gibson will likely be shut down or severely limited by the end of August).
kasmir

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 12:40 AM
This should be every bit as successful as last winter's pitching additions. Nicely done TR. Now let's strike while the iron is hot and get Livan signed before the other GMs find out he's still available!

or offer capps another pay cut and see if he returns?

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 12:55 AM
God damnit I miss BYTO!!!!

Basically I agree with 110% of what Kab has said in this thread, the fake outrage is hilarious though, keep it up.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 01:12 AM
Also:

Correia 2/10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dempters 3/40

Shane Wahl
12-11-2012, 01:20 AM
Also:

Correia 2/10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Dempters 3/40

I disagree, but that is fine. Correia isn't even going to be in the rotation in 2014. If he is, the Twins have much larger problems with Gibson, Meyer, May, and Hendriks. Dempster is at least a capable 2-3 and not a 5-6.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 01:47 AM
Whatever budget Terry Ryan is working with, he just committed $5 million of it toward a bad player for the next two years. I don't see any positive way to frame this.

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 02:05 AM
I really need to sink my money into a turd polish manufacturer before JR makes any more signings.

iastfan112
12-11-2012, 02:29 AM
Whatever budget Terry Ryan is working with, he just committed $5 million of it toward a bad player for the next two years. I don't see any positive way to frame this.

Yep, which is why I'd have rather overpaid for Dempster, Haren, Blanton, ect. You would think that after last years Marquis disaster they'd have shyed away from low K, pitch to contact guys with modest success in the NL. I find it hard to imagine there were other teams beating down Correia's door with a 2 year contract at this point.

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 02:35 AM
We can always sell him to Japan!

Top Gun
12-11-2012, 02:49 AM
It serves Pohlad right, who would want to come here and play for that cheap bastard. The players and agents know!

mattsaari
12-11-2012, 04:45 AM
Watching fans rend their garments and tear at their hair over a free agent signing it's easy to remember that this is a children's game. What else could possibly turn a bunch of adults into tantrum throwers? I get it, baseball makes people impassioned. It also makes people act rash.

Kevin Correia has not been a great pitcher, nobody will argue that. On the other hand, he has not since 2004 had RAR numbers comparable to what Blackburn, Dedudo, Walters and Marquis gave us last year. In fact, the numbers that got him tossed out of the Pirates rotation would have slotted him as the Twins #2. I know this is no ringing endorsement. It's not meant to be. It's simply the reality that our Twins are facing right now. They needed 3 whole big league pitchers to fill out the rotation for 2013, just to hope to compete. If Correia's acquisition does nothing more than prevent the continued misuse of Brian Duensing as a starter, it's a win. I'm not crackin' on Duens. He's one of my favorite players. Just that he's a below average starter, but a really good reliever.

Heck, If we got an entire pitching staff staff of Corrieas career average (as a starter) production, the team would allow 745 earned runs. Not sexy, but 17 runs better than last year. Somewhere between 1 and 2 wins. Let's say we can expect the bully to produce the same rate as last year (3.77 ERA, .42 r/i).

We slot in a whole staff of Correia career average (starts) pitchers. That gives them an avg start of 5 2/3 vs 5 1/3. 53 1/3 fewer innings to the bully first of all. That's a whole reliever worth of appearances (which would theoretically leave the pen more effective -- but we're not going to deal in that intangible right now). It reduces the team ERA to 4.29. Extrapolate that to the 1438.2 IP for 2k11 and the team surrenders 691 earned runs. That's still 100 behind Detroit, sure. But it's 71 better than last year. That's 7 Wins better, more or less. It's late and I can't sleep, so might be I've totally borked the math. I hope not, since that'd be too bad.

Let's just slot 2k12 Correia into an avg non-Diamond 2k12 starter (5.86 ERA! More than a run every other inning!) from last year, and give him his 160.67 innings. That reduces the team's starting pitching run allowance from 528 earned runs to 498. That's 30 runs. 3 'wins'. That places Correia's value to the 2k12 Twins at $15 Mil. They're paying him a third of that per season. Regression risk is built in to the contract.

While he's not the most exciting player on the block, he is a valuable pick up to the Twins. Considering they've also replaced another 5.86 ERA (The aggregate non-Diamond) starter with Worley (who produced at roughly the same rate last year, with injury) at the minimum, they've greatly improved the rotation. If we slap Worley's injured season into the matrix, we get at total of 474 starter runs. Meaning injured Worley is worth 2.4 'wins' to the 2k12 Twins as well. Obviously this only gets the team to 73 wins, but it's only cost 10.8 Mil of payroll over the next two seasons, with regression protection built in.

If we want to protect against the whole AL/NL thing, we add 23 Runs to that, negating the gain of Injured Worley. This doesn't include the likelihood that Healthy Worley will out produce Injured Worley.

Blah blah. Just adding the exact production that Correia gave the Pirates last year and even accounting for the AL/NL conversion: he would have been worth 17 Runs at a minimum to the Twins last year. Meaning his 5 Mil is actually less than his value would have been.

old nurse
12-11-2012, 06:22 AM
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3735-twins-will-seek-affordable-pitchers.html
Just saying I predicted this signin on Oct 14th......not that I have any info but I know how cheap Terry Ryan is
Very disappointing.......if Gardy is fired this season for another 95 loss season, TR should be right behind

I remember. I know you and I were prime targets for the slings and arrows from the apologists.

It looks like my prediction of $85M might have been a bit of an overshoot. One could say that one apparent intent from these maneuvers at payroll paring is that TR is setting Gardy up for his early dismissal papers.

Between the two of you can you ever remember a major free agent ever signing with a 180 loss team in a mid to small market? It isn't always about money. Name call those that think differently than you do to try to diminish a point of view but no major free aeant is going to a losing team at anything other than a totally outrageous contract. 6/90 for Sanchez is what the agent wanted. Even if the Twins offered, he wouldn't take it.

twinsfaninsaudi
12-11-2012, 06:33 AM
Whatever budget Terry Ryan is working with, he just committed $5 million of it toward a bad player for the next two years. I don't see any positive way to frame this.

Aren't you the same guy who thought the Twins could get James Shields for Dernard Span and BJ Hermsen?

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 06:42 AM
I thought it was excessive, given his injury and no option year

You can keep twisting your own words around to make it sound better, but you called 5.5M excessive. You then came on this thread and said 2 years and 10M (guaranteed, not an option year! Which HURTS trade value, not helps it!) is "not that bad". Those opinions together are stupid. There is no twisting this into "not that bad" in any world, but certainly not when you called a 1 year 5.5M deal "excessive". All the hand wringing and laughing about that looks mighty stupid now.

Just to recap a third time for you, they just paid a player who is bad at baseball as much money as the Cubs did for one meh guy and one guy who, if healthy, is pretty darn good. If you asked anyone before the offseason which of those two scenarios you would rather be in (bad player vs. two players) they'd have said the two players with meh ability and upside/health concerns 100 out of 100 times. It's a no brainer.

You, Nick, and many others shouted across this forum what silly moves those were by the Cubs. They look pretty damn sharp to me as we sit and look at a 10M dollar turd today.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:56 AM
Whatever budget Terry Ryan is working with, he just committed $5 million of it toward a bad player for the next two years. I don't see any positive way to frame this.

Aren't you the same guy who thought the Twins could get James Shields for Dernard Span and BJ Hermsen?

That should have been the going rate. One can't predict that another team will step in make a really stupid offer.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:58 AM
Whatever budget Terry Ryan is working with, he just committed $5 million of it toward a bad player for the next two years. I don't see any positive way to frame this.

I... I... Just... COME ON, JR. This is awful. You have $25m to spend and you dump $5m into Kevin ****ing Correa?

COME ON.

jcphitman
12-11-2012, 07:59 AM
I honestly think the Twins are done after this signing with their rotation. I don't like the signing, but why waste time complaining? What's done is done and nobody here has the power to change anything.

We're looking at next season with:
Diamond
Worley
Correia
Hendricks
Gibson/Blackburn/Deduno/DeVries/Etc

Think about it ... Diamond and Worley are locks. Bringing Corriea in will lock him up to a spot. Hendricks is cheap and the Twins still think he has some upside. They are going to force Blackburn into the rotation and either send him to the pen or AAA once Gibson is ready to get some starts in. If Gibson gets hurt or isn't ready, Deduno is back or one of the other AAA pitchers.

We already have our lefthander in Diamond.

This is it. We already have a full pen. Our last move will be a trade with St. Louis for Schumacker (sp) or another cheap MI option.

snepp
12-11-2012, 10:21 AM
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here.

No, it doesn't.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 10:24 AM
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here.

No, it doesn't.

you and your math, and science! Enough already!

mikeee
12-11-2012, 10:37 AM
The could have used this money to lower beer prices at the stadium. That would probably get more fans in the park than this pitcher.

kab21
12-11-2012, 11:41 AM
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here.

No, it doesn't.

Why is San Diego important anyway? he's been in Pitt for 2 years.

I'm mostly indifferent to this signing. JR always signs a few washed up vets and there's a chance he might not be horrible. I can forgive him as long as he has another good move or two left this offseason. I'm concerned that he might be hinting that he won't be able to sign a better starter but he did say that he planned on bringing in 3 starters this season. The offseason isn't over yet.

PseudoSABR
12-11-2012, 02:52 PM
I thought it was excessive, given his injury and no option year

You can keep twisting your own words around to make it sound better, but you called 5.5M excessive. You then came on this thread and said 2 years and 10M (guaranteed, not an option year! Which HURTS trade value, not helps it!) is "not that bad". Those opinions together are stupid. There is no twisting this into "not that bad" in any world, but certainly not when you called a 1 year 5.5M deal "excessive". All the hand wringing and laughing about that looks mighty stupid now.

Just to recap a third time for you, they just paid a player who is bad at baseball as much money as the Cubs did for one meh guy and one guy who, if healthy, is pretty darn good. If you asked anyone before the offseason which of those two scenarios you would rather be in (bad player vs. two players) they'd have said the two players with meh ability and upside/health concerns 100 out of 100 times. It's a no brainer.

You, Nick, and many others shouted across this forum what silly moves those were by the Cubs. They look pretty damn sharp to me as we sit and look at a 10M dollar turd today.Look, you're strawmanning. How many times do I have to say I don't like the deal. I'm holding out hope he can establish some trade value. That you want to have the Baker argument again strikes me as petty.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Look, you're strawmanning. How many times do I have to say I don't like the deal. I'm holding out hope he can establish some trade value. That you want to have the Baker argument again strikes me as petty.

Petty sounds funny considering how aggressively you wanted to shame my take on things before. I made three simple points:

1) Baker at 5.5M was not an overpayment.
2) The Cubs were not wildly overspending
3) The Twins were not going to fix the 2013 rotation in one offseason

All three of those things were 100% correct. You, and others, decided to call Baker's contract "Excessive" and a variety of other adjectives to justify the Twins not matching. You called out the Cubs for signing meh talents for more money than you thought they deserved. And you kept saying..."wait and see" about the offseason.

Well, now we've waited and now we see. Baker looks like a god damn bargain at 5.5 million even if his arm was half attached compared to Kevin "I'm pitch to contact personified, barely a 4th starter in the NL, and making TRIPLE what Marquis was paid last year for basically being his clone" Correia. The same guy you posted was signed to a deal that was "not that bad". This after arguing Baker was overpaid. How anyone can feel that 5.5M for Baker is excessive overpayment and 2 years 10M for Correia is "not that bad" is insane. Those positions cannot be rectified sanely.

Second, this offseason we have made two very nice deals that have restocked our 2015 rotation well and added one nice arm for 2013. We're out of trade chips unless we want to completely destroy the offense in the process. We now have roughly 20-25M to spend in FA and promptly kicked 20-25% of it on a horsecrap pitcher who should make us recall the days of Blackburn not Santana. Exactly what you and others complained the fatal problem with signing Baker was for 5.5. Now we not only anchored 5M to this year's budget, but next years as well for a key that, at best, provides more veteran presence then the guys we already had. Leaving us with exactly one choice: Spending the rest of the budget on one arm. Which, I don't know about you, but my confidence is pretty shaken on that happening considering this contract.

And third, in the context of free agency, what the Cubs did was read the market early and sign players to deals better than they would have likely got a month later. FA contracts are always higher than we like to stomach, but if you get in exceptionally early and exceptionally late with the right factors, you can sometimes dodge the ugliest bullets. Last night we took one ugly friggin bullet. No matter how much you want to paint it as "not that bad" It's ugly. Baker for less total dollars with much more upside is a no-brainer. Your aggressive approach to shaming me for that position earlier gives me every right to remind you of what it looks like now.

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 04:18 PM
The reason Baker at 5.5 guaranteed is an Overpay has nothing to do with his talent and everything to do with the likelihood that he won't pitch 15 games for the Cubs. It's not a 'bad contract', though. It only becomes a bad contract if he can't pitch any games. Or if you pay him 5.5 mil to rehab, look good in late season work and then sign with the Cards or Brewers and beat the Cubbies for years after.

PseudoSABR
12-11-2012, 04:22 PM
Look, you're strawmanning. How many times do I have to say I don't like the deal. I'm holding out hope he can establish some trade value. That you want to have the Baker argument again strikes me as petty.

Petty sounds funny considering how aggressively you wanted to shame my take on things before. I made three simple points:

1) Baker at 5.5M was not an overpayment.
2) The Cubs were not wildly overspending
3) The Twins were not going to fix the 2013 rotation in one offseason

All three of those things were 100% correct. You, and others, decided to call Baker's contract "Excessive" and a variety of other adjectives to justify the Twins not matching. You called out the Cubs for signing meh talents for more money than you thought they deserved. And you kept saying..."wait and see" about the offseason.

Well, now we've waited and now we see. Baker looks like a god damn bargain at 5.5 million even if his arm was half attached compared to Kevin "I'm pitch to contact personified, barely a 4th starter in the NL, and making TRIPLE what Marquis was paid last year for basically being his clone" Correia. The same guy you posted was signed to a deal that was "not that bad". This after arguing Baker was overpaid. How anyone can feel that 5.5M for Baker is excessive overpayment and 2 years 10M for Correia is "not that bad" is insane. Those positions cannot be rectified sanely.

Second, this offseason we have made two very nice deals that have restocked our 2015 rotation well and added one nice arm for 2013. We're out of trade chips unless we want to completely destroy the offense in the process. We now have roughly 20-25M to spend in FA and promptly kicked 20-25% of it on a horsecrap pitcher who should make us recall the days of Blackburn not Santana. Exactly what you and others complained the fatal problem with signing Baker was for 5.5. Now we not only anchored 5M to this year's budget, but next years as well for a key that, at best, provides more veteran presence then the guys we already had. Leaving us with exactly one choice: Spending the rest of the budget on one arm. Which, I don't know about you, but my confidence is pretty shaken on that happening considering this contract.

And third, in the context of free agency, what the Cubs did was read the market early and sign players to deals better than they would have likely got a month later. FA contracts are always higher than we like to stomach, but if you get in exceptionally early and exceptionally late with the right factors, you can sometimes dodge the ugliest bullets. Last night we took one ugly friggin bullet. No matter how much you want to paint it as "not that bad" It's ugly. Baker for less total dollars with much more upside is a no-brainer. Your aggressive approach to shaming me for that position earlier gives me every right to remind you of what it looks like now.Feel better?

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:23 PM
The reason Baker at 5.5 guaranteed is an Overpay has nothing to do with his talent and everything to do with the likelihood that he won't pitch 15 games for the Cubs. It's not a 'bad contract', though. It only becomes a bad contract if he can't pitch any games. Or if you pay him 5.5 mil to rehab, look good in late season work and then sign with the Cards or Brewers and beat the Cubbies for years after.

I'll take 5.5M on the chance of Baker's talent over 2 years and 10M for a no-talent. Baker wasn't an overpay based on market prices this year. He'll look like a bargain by the end of this.

You could argue he wasn't a good fit because the team needs durability - fine. But because he was paid too much? Um, no.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:24 PM
Feel better?

Absolutely. That stump was well earned.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 04:25 PM
With the heat down in San Diego, the ball travels better than it does back here.

No, it doesn't.

San Diego is notorious for its not-balmy 70 degree game time.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 04:29 PM
Feel better?

It's your own fault. Never wrestle with a pig. You both end up muddy and the pig likes it.

There's an "ignore poster" function, y'know.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
It's your own fault. Never wrestle with a pig. You both end up muddy and the pig likes it.

There's an "ignore poster" function, y'know.

Cute, care to bring any of your sage advice on statistics to the table?

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 04:50 PM
Why is the Baker signing such a great move again? We know this? Hasn't played in almost two years, Tommy John last April, he's a lock?

I'm not defending JR for the Correia signing, brutal and unnecessary, but that has nothing to do with me thinking that Baker would have been worth the risk. I don't believe the Twins didn't give Baker a similar deal as the Cubs because they felt it was overpaying, I think they just felt it was too high considering the risk and where it would have left them if it didn't work out.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Why is the Baker signing such a great move again? We know this? Hasn't played in almost two years, Tommy John last April, he's a lock?

I'm not defending JR for the Correia signing, brutal and unnecessary, but that has nothing to do with me thinking that Baker would have been worth the risk. I don't believe the Twins didn't give Baker a similar deal as the Cubs because they felt it was overpaying, I think they just felt it was too high considering the risk and where it would have left them if it didn't work out.

We already know the answer - they wanted a team option and he didn't. That appeared to be the crux of the issue. I don't disagree that it would have been nice to have, but saying "see ya" because 5.5M was "Excessive"? Um, no. It's not a matter of being a lock, Baker was a damn good AL pitcher in the past. But contracts being the same (5M) I'll take "slated to be ready, but a rough recent injury history with significant talent" over "durably not very good" any day of the week. We have durable and not very good, that's not what we should have been after.

Nick Nelson
12-11-2012, 05:13 PM
I didn't realize the Twins' two free agent pitching options were Kevin Correia and Scott Baker.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 05:16 PM
I didn't realize the Twins' two free agent pitching options were Kevin Correia and Scott Baker.

Depends how realistic you wanted to be. I don't deny I put a lot of eggs in the Baker basket. McCarthy too. Was hoping we'd land one or both of them. After that I felt our odds of landing a serious talent were extremely slim.

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Why is the Baker signing such a great move again? We know this? Hasn't played in almost two years, Tommy John last April, he's a lock?

I'm not defending JR for the Correia signing, brutal and unnecessary, but that has nothing to do with me thinking that Baker would have been worth the risk. I don't believe the Twins didn't give Baker a similar deal as the Cubs because they felt it was overpaying, I think they just felt it was too high considering the risk and where it would have left them if it didn't work out.

We already know the answer - they wanted a team option and he didn't. That appeared to be the crux of the issue. I don't disagree that it would have been nice to have, but saying "see ya" because 5.5M was "Excessive"? Um, no. It's not a matter of being a lock, Baker was a damn good AL pitcher in the past. But contracts being the same (5M) I'll take "slated to be ready, but a rough recent injury history with significant talent" over "durably not very good" any day of the week. We have durable and not very good, that's not what we should have been after.

I didn't say it was excessive, although I can understand anyone at the time Baker was signed, thinking 5.5M was a bigger risk than necessary. You can't deny there is a notable risk involved.

I'm not comparing the two deals anyway, that whole thing is irrelevant, I'm in the neither camp, Correia is awful and Baker is too risky considering the situation we're in.

TheLeviathan
12-11-2012, 05:23 PM
I'm not comparing the two deals anyway, that whole thing is irrelevant, I'm in the neither camp, Correia is awful and Baker is too risky considering the situation we're in.

Fair enough. I think this offseason should be more about getting the most reward for the buck. If that comes with a lot of risk, so be it. That was my stance, the trouble with Correia is that he's safely awful and we guaranteed a staggering amount of money for that.

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm not comparing the two deals anyway, that whole thing is irrelevant, I'm in the neither camp, Correia is awful and Baker is too risky considering the situation we're in.

Fair enough. I think this offseason should be more about getting the most reward for the buck. If that comes with a lot of risk, so be it. That was my stance, the trouble with Correia is that he's safely awful and we guaranteed a staggering amount of money for that.

Won't contest that last point, agreed.

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 05:39 PM
If 5 mil a year for a #3-4 starter (Go look up the actual ERAs of those rotation positions, please) staggers you, I hope you were lying down when you saw the Grienke deal.

twinsnorth49
12-11-2012, 05:45 PM
If 5 mil a year for a #3-4 starter (Go look up the actual ERAs of those rotation positions, please) staggers you, I hope you were lying down when you saw the Grienke deal.

Who is staggered by 5 Mil on a 3-4 starter? I'm staggered by 10 Mil over 2 years for a borderline 5th starter with no upside.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:09 PM
If 5 mil a year for a #3-4 starter (Go look up the actual ERAs of those rotation positions, please) staggers you, I hope you were lying down when you saw the Grienke deal.

If Kevin Correia is a #3, a lot has changed in the league in the past two months (ie. half the league contracted smallpox and died).

johnnydakota
12-11-2012, 07:04 PM
To me , i am amazed that we would spend that kind of money on a non asset type of player, after this year who is going to offer us any thing for him?if we are building for the future shouldnt we sign players that will help us in the future,or players who will bring us prospect in a trade?

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 09:19 PM
Just because you don't think something should be true, doesn't negate it: Pirates Prospects What Should You Expect From Each Rotation Spot? (http://www.piratesprospects.com/2010/12/what-should-you-expect-from-each-rotation-spot.html)

#1 – 3.36 ERA or better
#2 – 3.36 – 3.88 ERA
#3 – 3.88 – 4.38 ERA
#4 – 4.38 – 5.15 ERA
#5 – 5.15 ERA or worse
Depending on what you truly believe Correia's ERA will settle out at in the AL, His career starter numbers have fluctuated between #2 and #5, most commonly straddling 3/4. It's what is actually happening in the leagues. Although I will account for the possibility that the past couple of years have edged those numbers down, as offenses have been less productive. As seen elsewhere, Correia has done quite well in 100 interleague innings. Of course this is hardly any indication how he will do on a regular basis, it does suggest that perhaps he isn't going to completely melt down when not getting 2-3 free outs a game.

Danchat
12-11-2012, 09:44 PM
If 5 mil a year for a #3-4 starter (Go look up the actual ERAs of those rotation positions, please) staggers you, I hope you were lying down when you saw the Grienke deal.
As I quote Pat Roycy, if Correia is worth $10M, then Grienke is easily worth $147M.

kab21
12-11-2012, 11:44 PM
If 5 mil a year for a #3-4 starter (Go look up the actual ERAs of those rotation positions, please) staggers you, I hope you were lying down when you saw the Grienke deal.
As I quote Pat Roycy, if Correia is worth $10M, then Grienke is easily worth $147M.

If Correia is worth $10M then I am easily worth $1M.