PDA

View Full Version : Chance Twins open season with 75/80m payroll??



greengoblinrulz
12-09-2012, 02:27 PM
First off, Im 100% a nonpayroll guy but who it's used on......dont spend JUST to spend.
That said......The team currently has its current 25 man roster @ 71.5m approx
Im 100% positive Ryan will never offer a FA pitcher more than a year. Its his cheap old schooled approach.
Twins have 3/5 of rotation set with Diamond, Worley & Hendriks all making the minimum. They will go dumpster diving on 1 yr offers for Lannan, Liriano, Corrieia, etc on low money deal to fill out the rotation......OR will they?
His mention of Duensing & Blackburn during his MLB TV interview has me thinking Nick's 5.5m will be given EVERY opportunity to get a spot. Duensing will allow the team to keep all its relievers (currently 8 with 7 spots...but if Brian starts, they dont have to make a decision there).
Per Ryan's comments, they wont spend any more on bullpen, or position players (maybe a 3B comp for Trev but that's the 13th roster spot)
The 13th position player is irrelevenat to salary as they will be minimum, as will the 4th OF & the utility guy.
Twins/Ryan will state 'they made offers to every pitcher (with EJackson/McCarthy we now know is an outright lie) & were rebuffed' but they only made offers that they knew would be turned down as has been their MO during the Ryan yrs.
IF this happens, does this bother you or are you fine with rebuilding for 2014?? If that extra $25m were to be used for future, it wouldnt bother me but it will just go into Pohlads pockets, Im sure.

glunn
12-09-2012, 02:34 PM
If they were to use some of the "extra" money to sign another Sano or Kepler or two, I would be OK with that.

Einstein
12-09-2012, 02:41 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

glunn
12-09-2012, 02:54 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

Einstein
12-09-2012, 03:08 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?Do you really see that happening?

nicksaviking
12-09-2012, 03:17 PM
People seem to be sugesting saving money for international signings and draft picks. Can't happen, teams can't spend freely there now, they are both capped.

darin617
12-09-2012, 03:20 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

Teams only get so much money to sign international players and drafted players. So there is no saving money in the budget to sign prospects. It looks like the boys are making their father seem like a generous guy towards payroll limits. At least they will be able to pocket at least $100-130M+ thank god for taxpayers to help you out.

Kwak
12-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?
People aren't buying tickets to see the inside of the stadium, they are buying them to be entertained. There is a clear expectation (as well as the promise from the Twins) that they would provide a quality, competitive, and entertaining baseball team every season. Many fans sent a message vis `a vis the minor league team that was put on the field at the end of 2011 of "never again". The fans paid for a major league and they should see two of them--the Twins as well as their opponent. So yes, the Twins do need to spend some money and put better players on the field--even if they aren't going to qualify for post-season play!

Willihammer
12-09-2012, 03:24 PM
When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 03:29 PM
People laughed when I said they are the more subtle Marlins. Three players make more than $4MM on this roster. Three. Make Mauer's deal $10MM and they payroll is lower than in the dome. (I don't actually know the numbers, that's exaggeration for effect).

They are simply choosing not to sign players. There are plenty of good pitchers out there, they are choosing not to sign. Still hoping I'm wrong.*

*oh, and I do think signing two good pitchers would make a difference. If they get hot and lucky, they could be in it at the deadline, or encouraged to try to get players, instead of getting rid of players. If you are not going to spend in a year when your payroll is $25MM lower than last year, and the tv money is going up by $25MM next year, when are you ever going to spend? Santana and Hunter were right. The future will never come for this team, in terms of adding players. Still hoping I'm wrong.

**to answer the question, yes, it is possible they'll be under $80-85MM.

greengoblinrulz
12-09-2012, 03:34 PM
Nick Blackburn is the 4th highest paid Twins @ 5.5m
Jamey Carroll is the 5th highest paid @ 3.75m
Sad
If Brian Duensing's arbitration lands under a million.....MN could field an on field team of players with only 7 guys making over a million (no FA signings....Blackburn in AAA)....Doumit, Perk, Burton the other 3

YourHouseIsMyHouse
12-09-2012, 03:36 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

If you sign players to multiyear contracts then they will make a difference in 2014. Nearly all players on the market are asking for those type of contracts. If they signed Shaun Marcum now, he's going to pitch in 2014 and beyond too.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
12-09-2012, 03:37 PM
Nick Blackburn is the 4th highest paid Twins @ 5.5m
Jamey Carroll is the 5th highest paid @ 3.75m
Sad

Who's #1? :p

glunn
12-09-2012, 03:38 PM
Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

Teams only get so much money to sign international players and drafted players. So there is no saving money in the budget to sign prospects. It looks like the boys are making their father seem like a generous guy towards payroll limits. At least they will be able to pocket at least $100-130M+ thank god for taxpayers to help you out.

I stand corrected on the international signings -- I had forgotten about the cap. But I do hope that the Twins spend nearly all of the cap and that they be willing to spend for Appel if he is the best available starter come draft time.

As for the taxpayers, I never understood why their elected representatives did not do a better job in protecting them, except for the fact that most politicians are hacks.

JB_Iowa
12-09-2012, 04:09 PM
As I have said in the past, I would not have a problem with the Twins "harboring" money to be used toward free agent signings in a future year BUT that is a HUGE change in their "modus operandi" and would require a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT on their part that it is in fact, what they are doing and that they will no longer be adhering to the 50% (or 52% or whatever it is) rule.

As someone mentioned above, the baseball world is changed -- there are slots for what you pay players acquired in the draft and there is a governing system for what you can spend internationally (yes, you can overspend but the penalities are much more than I ever envision the Twins being willing to pay). The one other area where I can see that a "pool" of money can be used is in the bidding system for international players (a la Yu Darvish or god forbid, Nishioka).

Reasonable fans (or taxpayers) would not (and should not) assume that any reduction in payroll will be used in the future. The Twins would have to make it clear that the monies would, in fact, be spent in the future. AND fans should use their wallets (through attendance, purchases, etc). to hold the franchise's feet to the fire.

If not, EVERY Twins fan and EVERY Minnesota taxpayer should be OUTRAGED.

Perhaps there aren't any good pitching deals that could be had but are those of you who are saying they shouldn't spend also saying that they are NO "purchases" they can use to improve this team? Are there NO Willingham-type deals to be made where you sign a player who may be valuable to you later in trades? It seems to me that there are a lot of places that this roster can be upgraded -- not just the pitching staff.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 04:35 PM
Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?

Shane Wahl
12-09-2012, 04:40 PM
The main issue for me is that Blackburn's $5.5 million is coming off the books after 2013 and Morneau's $14 million is too. I am not sure about what will happen with Jamey Carroll, but that 3.75 should be gone as well. THAT ALONE almost meets the amount they would spend for 2014 on Jackson and Marcum in the second year of their contracts. The Twins are going to live off of cheap players for many years through what is now a great farm system again.

Shane Wahl
12-09-2012, 04:42 PM
Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?

Well if they don't spend it then that means they will lower ticket prices . . . oh wait, no. Greedy billionaires swindle the public into paying for a stadium and then defund the team for two years in a row? Are they REALLY going to do that?

70charger
12-09-2012, 04:43 PM
I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?

strumdatjag
12-09-2012, 04:45 PM
I would think that Kyle Gibson is likely to start the season in the rotation, along with Worley and Dianmond. The Twins should sign one good free agent and let Liam Hendrix, Cole DeVries, and other minor leaguers fight for the last spot in the rotation at Spring Training. I suspect that they will sign two scrap-heapers (below Jason Marquis level) and hope to catch lightning in a bottle.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 04:51 PM
The main issue for me is that Blackburn's $5.5 million is coming off the books after 2013 and Morneau's $14 million is too. I am not sure about what will happen with Jamey Carroll, but that 3.75 should be gone as well. THAT ALONE almost meets the amount they would spend for 2014 on Jackson and Marcum in the second year of their contracts. The Twins are going to live off of cheap players for many years through what is now a great farm system again.

Ha, I forgot about Blackburn's money.....but I think we are just talking to each other now. Some people really think that at some point the Twins will spend money. Not sure why they think that, since there is zero evidence so far it is true, and plenty to show it is not likely. Still hoping to be wrong....

glunn
12-09-2012, 05:12 PM
Something that is rarely discussed is how much are teams spending on scouting and minor league coaching. I would guess that over the long run an extra $1 million or more per year spent on these items might pay big dividends.

ThePuck
12-09-2012, 05:24 PM
Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?

Yes there are people who believe they will

twinsnorth49
12-09-2012, 06:06 PM
I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?

I concur, only the most cynical believe that the organization doesn't have a plan beyond lining their pockets. The club could definitely be more transparent and consistent in communicating what that plan is to the fan base, but just because they don't doesn't mean there isn't one. I'd rather believe the team is carefully considering the best way to move forward, either pay a boatload of money for some good (not great) help now or keep stockpiling the cupboard and spend the money when those players graduate on some key veteran pieces.

I'm willing to accept I could be totally wrong but because I don't know any better than anyone else, I prefer the wait and see approach.

The Bilderbergs run the World Government, not the Trilateral Commission, no wait there the same thing,or are they? Conspiracy indeed.

edavis0308
12-09-2012, 06:18 PM
All I know is that my stance is that if they insist they are going to compete next year..and they don't spend the money on a decent pitcher, I'm not spending a dime to go see them play until I actually see they are competitive. If they'd spend the money to make it look.like an effort for 2013 is in place, I'd probably buy some tickets in advance. If their roster solutions consist of the lower tier variety, I'm not forking over a dime in advance.

All this talk of people saying how the Pohlads spend their millions of dollars and how it's not our money.. well that is how I will move forward regarding my money and the team.

mnfireman
12-09-2012, 06:37 PM
Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?

old nurse
12-09-2012, 06:58 PM
When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.

Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

70charger
12-09-2012, 07:08 PM
I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?

I concur, only the most cynical believe that the organization doesn't have a plan beyond lining their pockets. The club could definitely be more transparent and consistent in communicating what that plan is to the fan base, but just because they don't doesn't mean there isn't one. I'd rather believe the team is carefully considering the best way to move forward, either pay a boatload of money for some good (not great) help now or keep stockpiling the cupboard and spend the money when those players graduate on some key veteran pieces.

I'm willing to accept I could be totally wrong but because I don't know any better than anyone else, I prefer the wait and see approach.

The Bilderbergs run the World Government, not the Trilateral Commission, no wait there the same thing,or are they? Conspiracy indeed.

+1

Those Bilderbergs, man. They're like the modern-day Templars.

And don't get me started on those damn Masons!

greengoblinrulz
12-09-2012, 07:16 PM
Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?

unfortunate....but a former MVP & multiple all star may not be enough to get Olt.

Top Gun
12-09-2012, 07:22 PM
The Twins could have sign Zack, that would have gave them just two players over 10M in 2014. Now we will have just one and 2 more 100 loss seasons. It's just to bad that a Twins fans have to put up with this.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 07:25 PM
When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.

Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

Yes, McCarthy on this roster over Deduno does make them more competitive. Does it alone make them great, no. But it makes them better. That should be the goal. If they should only spend money if they are "certain" to win, they should trade every player on this roster that won't be here in 2 years...and then sell no tickets.

Willihammer
12-09-2012, 07:29 PM
Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

Considering who will likely pitch in their stead in 2013, and 2014 and 2015 for that matter, yes. With a few breaks and a little luck health-wise, the Twins could have been competitive in 2013 and 2014, or at least, more competitive.

Obviously, there is risk in all 3. But it didn't take huge longterm deals to get any of these guys. And, Justin Verlander could get hurt too. Chris Sale had a sore elbow last year, Peavy is always a risk. Everyone is a year older, some guys will break down. It works both ways.

At the very least, when you tell 22,000 people who have already bought season ticket packages, that you are going to field a competitive team, you should get the guys who, if the breaks go your way, are talented enough to deliver on your promise. I will happily eat crow if Ryan goes out and get Sanchez and Jackson, but that is not looking likely. Instead, if the rumors are to be believed, he is chasing 4 bottom feeders who even if healthy aren't talented enough to put this team into contention. That, would be money wasted.

JB_Iowa
12-09-2012, 07:30 PM
The Twins created certain expectations by their repeated reference to the 50+% rule through the years. I've suggested previously that it may make sense to have a payroll of less than 50% while rebuilding while expending more than 50% once the team matures.

That approach makes sense to me. But given this franchise's repeated prior references to the 50% rule, they CANNOT do this in a vacuum. If they are to have any credibility with fans, they must explain what they are doing and then they must follow through on that spending plan as time goes along. Even if they do that, many fans are going to doubt their sincerity that they would later spend current savings. Like it or not, Terry Ryan and the Pohlads have a reputation for being cheap (and that reputation was strengthened when Jim Pohlad made it pretty clear that he replaced Bill Smith because Smith wanted to keep the budget at $110m+).

I actually expect this whole discussion to be moot. I don't think the Twins will significantly change their approach to the 50% rule. I do expect payroll to be in the $91 million - $94 million range. (Although I admittedly wouldn't be too surprised if it came in at $85-$90 m)

70charger
12-09-2012, 07:32 PM
All I know is that my stance is that if they insist they are going to compete next year..and they don't spend the money on a decent pitcher, I'm not spending a dime to go see them play until I actually see they are competitive. If they'd spend the money to make it look.like an effort for 2013 is in place, I'd probably buy some tickets in advance. If their roster solutions consist of the lower tier variety, I'm not forking over a dime in advance.

All this talk of people saying how the Pohlads spend their millions of dollars and how it's not our money.. well that is how I will move forward regarding my money and the team.

What do you expect? Dave St. Peter calls a press conference and says "Hey, you know that year 2013? Yeah, **** that noise."

Not gonna happen.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-09-2012, 07:42 PM
This whole thread summed up in 3 words:

HUUUURRRRRRR DUUUURRRRRR DEERP

old nurse
12-09-2012, 07:55 PM
When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.

Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

Yes, McCarthy on this roster over Deduno does make them more competitive. Does it alone make them great, no. But it makes them better. That should be the goal. If they should only spend money if they are "certain" to win, they should trade every player on this roster that won't be here in 2 years...and then sell no tickets.

With McCarthy you would still get Deduno pitching as many games for the Twins as he did last year.

old nurse
12-09-2012, 07:57 PM
Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

Considering who will likely pitch in their stead in 2013, and 2014 and 2015 for that matter, yes. With a few breaks and a little luck health-wise, the Twins could have been competitive in 2013 and 2014, or at least, more competitive.

Obviously, there is risk in all 3. But it didn't take huge longterm deals to get any of these guys. And, Justin Verlander could get hurt too. Chris Sale had a sore elbow last year, Peavy is always a risk. Everyone is a year older, some guys will break down. It works both ways.

At the very least, when you tell 22,000 people who have already bought season ticket packages, that you are going to field a competitive team, you should get the guys who, if the breaks go your way, are talented enough to deliver on your promise. I will happily eat crow if Ryan goes out and get Sanchez and Jackson, but that is not looking likely. Instead, if the rumors are to be believed, he is chasing 4 bottom feeders who even if healthy aren't talented enough to put this team into contention. That, would be money wasted.

Why not wait until the signings of more comment or healthier pitchers to sign to complain. Then you would not have to eat crow.

Seth Stohs
12-09-2012, 08:06 PM
Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?

No... They're not going to deal one of baseball's ttop hitting prospects for a year of a $14 million player. Also, so many in this forum would probably complain because that would mean that the Twins would have about $13.5 million less in payroll.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 08:10 PM
Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?

No... They're not going to deal one of baseball's ttop hitting prospects for a year of a $14 million player. Also, so many in this forum would probably complain because that would mean that the Twins would have about $13.5 million less in payroll.

Not if they spent it.....but I would consider it a good trade. But that should create a context to spend money. But they'd really look like the Marlins then, wouldn't they?

Seth Stohs
12-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Greinke just signed. A couple of mid-level pitchers have signed. Still lots out there and time. Why not at least wait a month to whine about what the Twins didn't do, rather than now about what they might not (or even probably won't) do.

nicksaviking
12-09-2012, 08:26 PM
Greinke just signed. A couple of mid-level pitchers have signed. Still lots out there and time. Why not at least wait a month to whine about what the Twins didn't do, rather than now about what they might not (or even probably won't) do.

Well assuming they won't compete with the big pockets over Sanchez, and if we are to believe LE3, that the Twins won't pursue Marcum or Jackson, there's no other pitchers any reasonable fan should give two wet farts about.

kab21
12-09-2012, 08:36 PM
It's kind of humorous how people are surprised that rebuilding teams trade veterans and are hesitant to sign aging and declining veterans to long contracts.

Top Gun
12-09-2012, 08:39 PM
The price just went up on FA pitchers. Now the big market teams will make there bids. It's over for the Twins the fat lady is singing.

Brock Beauchamp
12-09-2012, 08:58 PM
Not if they spent it.....but I would consider it a good trade. But that should create a context to spend money. But they'd really look like the Marlins then, wouldn't they?

No, the Twins wouldn't look like the Marlins because Ryan is actually getting talent in return for the players they're trading.

What Loria is doing in Florida is abominable.

kab21
12-09-2012, 09:09 PM
It's abominable because they will open the season with a 15M payroll once they trade Nolasco. I would disagree that they didn't get talent in return though. Marisnick and Nicolino aren't far behind May and Meyer imo. And they also rid themselves of Buehrle's contract.

I've made an argument before that in addition to a luxury tax, baseball also needs a salary floor. If you don't spend X then your revenue sharing is reduced and/or eliminated. There is absolutely no excuse that Loria should get any of the revenue sharing for fielding an absolutely awful baseball team.

Brock Beauchamp
12-09-2012, 09:18 PM
It's abominable because they will open the season with a 15M payroll once they trade Nolasco. I would disagree that they didn't get talent in return though. Marisnick and Nicolino aren't far behind May and Meyer imo. And they also rid themselves of Buehrle's contract.

I've made an argument before that in addition to a luxury tax, baseball also needs a salary floor. If you don't spend X then your revenue sharing is reduced and/or eliminated. There is absolutely no excuse that Loria should get any of the revenue sharing for fielding an absolutely awful baseball team.

They got talent back but they traded half a roster of former All-Stars to do it.

Take your time, piecemeal out those players, pay some of the salaries you've offloaded, and the Marlins could have doubled their return. But no, Loria turned greedy and proved just how awful an owner he really can be. I'd like to see the city of Miami find a way to drag his ass into court over this crap.

And Selig should be railroading his ass straight out of baseball.

minn55441
12-09-2012, 09:27 PM
It's abominable because they will open the season with a 15M payroll once they trade Nolasco. I would disagree that they didn't get talent in return though. Marisnick and Nicolino aren't far behind May and Meyer imo. And they also rid themselves of Buehrle's contract.

I've made an argument before that in addition to a luxury tax, baseball also needs a salary floor. If you don't spend X then your revenue sharing is reduced and/or eliminated. There is absolutely no excuse that Loria should get any of the revenue sharing for fielding an absolutely awful baseball team.

I agree with everything you said, the problem is that I was saying the same thing about Oakland last off season. When they traded Gio and Baily, I thought that they were only going to field a AAA team. Then they went out and signed a Cuban guy late in the off season and he supplied just enough offense to win a division. Not just any division, but the division included the teams that spent the most last off season.

I'm a season ticket holder. I vented my frustration with the pitching last year and the lack of money spent on what everyone knew was a problem heading into the season. I've already paid for 2013, so I just have to have some faith that TR is going to make a competitive run this year. If he doesn't bring anyone in from the outside to start, he should be relieved of his duties. As far as who he brings in let the performance on the field be the judge. I sure didn't give Oakland or Baltimore a chance last year. Maybe TR can pull a few rabbits out of his hat like Billy Beane did last year.

Seth Stohs
12-09-2012, 09:39 PM
It's kind of humorous how people are surprised that rebuilding teams trade veterans and are hesitant to sign aging and declining veterans to long contracts.

It's incredible, isn't it?

Rosterman
12-09-2012, 09:46 PM
The Twins will not carryover profit. They are still paying off their portion of the stadium, I believe. 50% of $150 million and then 50% of $200+ million.....hummmmmm did they give everyone in the front office, scouting staff and such a raise? I think not. Because they are :losers" they egt higher draft picks and have to pay more. But if you win, you all sell more tickets, concessions et al. More people watch television and such.

They can spend. Not just on a pitcher but now an outfielder or a shortstop or someone. They have another $25+ million off the payroll next year, + $25 million more in TV revenue.

22,000 season ticket holders. Another 5,000 game sales. Okay, 10,000 empty seats in 2013.

Might as well trade Mauer, too.

Be the team with the fastest decrease in attendance with a new stadium ever.

You don't always win by spending carelessly, but the Twins supposedly have some money to spend and can spend it and not effect their bottom line, so why not do it. Get someone, something. Even futrue trade chips.

Hell, if they are doing nothing more, then they could've spent $24 million on Grienke for six years and let him led the staff when they really become competitive in 2015-2018.

70charger
12-09-2012, 09:55 PM
The Twins will not carryover profit. They are still paying off their portion of the stadium, I believe. 50% of $150 million and then 50% of $200+ million.....hummmmmm did they give everyone in the front office, scouting staff and such a raise? I think not. Because they are :losers" they egt higher draft picks and have to pay more. But if you win, you all sell more tickets, concessions et al. More people watch television and such.

They can spend. Not just on a pitcher but now an outfielder or a shortstop or someone. They have another $25+ million off the payroll next year, + $25 million more in TV revenue.

22,000 season ticket holders. Another 5,000 game sales. Okay, 10,000 empty seats in 2013.

Might as well trade Mauer, too.

Be the team with the fastest decrease in attendance with a new stadium ever.

You don't always win by spending carelessly, but the Twins supposedly have some money to spend and can spend it and not effect their bottom line, so why not do it. Get someone, something. Even futrue trade chips.

Hell, if they are doing nothing more, then they could've spent $24 million on Grienke for six years and let him led the staff when they really become competitive in 2015-2018.

Mr. Rosterman, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.

snepp
12-09-2012, 09:58 PM
And Selig should be railroading his ass straight out of baseball.

It's Loria that has been railroading Selig's ass for two decades, why stop now?

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 10:09 PM
Its amazing that people keep putting up straw man arguments that no one is making. Most people suggesting they spend money have suggested signing guys that should still be good in 2 or 3 or more years. Also, the GM said they would spend money to he competitive. Also, they are 3 years into a new stadium. Also, they are 25 million below last year. Also, 25 million more is coming in revenue next year. Is it unreasonable to want them to sign one legit pitcher to a long term deal, given all that?

twinsnorth49
12-09-2012, 10:40 PM
The Twins will not carryover profit. They are still paying off their portion of the stadium, I believe. 50% of $150 million and then 50% of $200+ million.....hummmmmm did they give everyone in the front office, scouting staff and such a raise? I think not. Because they are :losers" they egt higher draft picks and have to pay more. But if you win, you all sell more tickets, concessions et al. More people watch television and such.

They can spend. Not just on a pitcher but now an outfielder or a shortstop or someone. They have another $25+ million off the payroll next year, + $25 million more in TV revenue.

22,000 season ticket holders. Another 5,000 game sales. Okay, 10,000 empty seats in 2013.

Might as well trade Mauer, too.

Be the team with the fastest decrease in attendance with a new stadium ever.

You don't always win by spending carelessly, but the Twins supposedly have some money to spend and can spend it and not effect their bottom line, so why not do it. Get someone, something. Even futrue trade chips.

Hell, if they are doing nothing more, then they could've spent $24 million on Grienke for six years and let him led the staff when they really become competitive in 2015-2018.


http://www.websmileys.com/sm/mad/1335.gif

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 10:42 PM
I'll tell you what I wouldn't do...trade Sano and Gibson for Shields and Davis and PTBNL....what is KC doing? Awful trade for KC, great trade for MN and TB.

johnnydakota
12-09-2012, 10:44 PM
If they were to use some of the "extra" money to sign another Sano or Kepler or two, I would be OK with that.

huh? the twins and every other team are allowed to spend a set amount in the draft including a set amout for international signings,and they didnt spend there allotment in either case last year

greengoblinrulz
12-09-2012, 10:52 PM
I'll tell you what I wouldn't do...trade Sano and Gibson for Shields and Davis and PTBNL....what is KC doing? Awful trade for KC, great trade for MN and TB.
Yeah, Id hate it also if my team dealt for a top of the rotation horse

nicksaviking
12-09-2012, 10:58 PM
It's kind of humorous how people are surprised that rebuilding teams trade veterans and are hesitant to sign aging and declining veterans to long contracts.

It's incredible, isn't it?

I have no illusion of competing next year, and I've been on the rebuild bandwagon since before last season, so unless the Twins change their minds and go after Marcum or Jackson on a multi year deal, I couldn't care less if they sign the other junkballers as rental players.

However, to rip on those that DO want to see some free agent action is a load of crap seeing as the GM flat out lied to the fans, specifically those that follow this site. Ryan said he was going after a "pretty darn good" pitcher, John's quote not mine.
http://twinsdaily.com/twins-talk/3801-article-terry-ryan-twins-will-chase-pretty-darn-good-pitcher.html

Now unless we find out Ryan is making a play for Sanchez, we know that was not true, as reports from LE3 have refuted that the Twins have made any offers to any of the other top arms.

Ryan was just on the baseball network the other day and said you can make offers but "sometimes you can't give money away." Sneaky, sneaky. The implication was that the Twins were TRYING to sign guys but they wouldn't take the offers, what it likely meant was, "We ain't giving our money to those bums."

There is no obligation for Ryan to be straight with us, but by deceiving the fans with the hope that the rotation will be improved via free agency, he forfeits his right to be defended by Twins homers.

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 11:04 PM
Yeah, Id hate it also if my team dealt for a top of the rotation horse

Where is that Picard image when you need it?

johnnydakota
12-09-2012, 11:09 PM
Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?
they want a right handed bat to platoon with moreland

greengoblinrulz
12-09-2012, 11:11 PM
Yeah, Id hate it also if my team dealt for a top of the rotation horse

Where is that Picard image when you need it?

sorry but there is no guarrantee that myers can/will be any better than Mostakas/Hosmer have been the past 2 yrs or what Gordon/Butler etc did their first couple yrs......Shields is an absolute top of rotation innings eater (didnt say ace tho). They dealt from percieved strength (young hotshot hitter prospect types) to get what they dont have.
I love what KC has done this offseason to get their pitching in order.

johnnydakota
12-09-2012, 11:15 PM
Greinke just signed. A couple of mid-level pitchers have signed. Still lots out there and time. Why not at least wait a month to whine about what the Twins didn't do, rather than now about what they might not (or even probably won't) do.
The sqeeky wheel gets the oil....

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 11:15 PM
sorry but there is no guarrantee that myers can/will be any better than Mostakas/Hosmer have been the past 2 yrs or what Gordon/Butler etc did their first couple yrs......Shields is an absolute top of rotation innings eater (didnt say ace tho). They dealt from percieved strength (young hotshot hitter prospect types) to get what they dont have.
I love what KC has done this offseason to get their pitching in order.

The Royals are in a totally different place than the Twins. In three years this might be an appropriate move for the Twins but it isn't now. Even then, the deals where your hand is forced (ala Soriano a few years ago) are often the worst for an organization to pull off.

johnnydakota
12-09-2012, 11:19 PM
The Twins will not carryover profit. They are still paying off their portion of the stadium, I believe. 50% of $150 million and then 50% of $200+ million.....hummmmmm did they give everyone in the front office, scouting staff and such a raise? I think not. Because they are :losers" they egt higher draft picks and have to pay more. But if you win, you all sell more tickets, concessions et al. More people watch television and such.

They can spend. Not just on a pitcher but now an outfielder or a shortstop or someone. They have another $25+ million off the payroll next year, + $25 million more in TV revenue.

22,000 season ticket holders. Another 5,000 game sales. Okay, 10,000 empty seats in 2013.

Might as well trade Mauer, too.

Be the team with the fastest decrease in attendance with a new stadium ever.

You don't always win by spending carelessly, but the Twins supposedly have some money to spend and can spend it and not effect their bottom line, so why not do it. Get someone, something. Even futrue trade chips.

Hell, if they are doing nothing more, then they could've spent $24 million on Grienke for six years and let him led the staff when they really become competitive in 2015-2018.

Isint the twins paying off there share of the stadium through a tax people are paying on hotels resturants and bars in the city?

USAFChief
12-10-2012, 12:52 AM
Isint the twins paying off there share of the stadium through a tax people are paying on hotels resturants and bars in the city?
Huh?

SpantheMan
12-10-2012, 01:27 AM
We can't just sign prospects win the extra money because there'a a cap for international signings and draft spending. However, if we use the money to squire better prospects when we trade ( Willingham for b-level prospect vs. Willingham +10mil for a-level prospect), we could use our excess money to get better prospects.

Gernzy
12-10-2012, 08:46 AM
The Twins will not carryover profit. They are still paying off their portion of the stadium, I believe. 50% of $150 million and then 50% of $200+ million.....hummmmmm did they give everyone in the front office, scouting staff and such a raise? I think not. Because they are :losers" they egt higher draft picks and have to pay more. But if you win, you all sell more tickets, concessions et al. More people watch television and such.

They can spend. Not just on a pitcher but now an outfielder or a shortstop or someone. They have another $25+ million off the payroll next year, + $25 million more in TV revenue.

22,000 season ticket holders. Another 5,000 game sales. Okay, 10,000 empty seats in 2013.

Might as well trade Mauer, too.

Be the team with the fastest decrease in attendance with a new stadium ever.

You don't always win by spending carelessly, but the Twins supposedly have some money to spend and can spend it and not effect their bottom line, so why not do it. Get someone, something. Even futrue trade chips.

Hell, if they are doing nothing more, then they could've spent $24 million on Grienke for six years and let him led the staff when they really become competitive in 2015-2018.

Mr. Rosterman, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.

You sir, have just won the internet.
And yes I also see the penguin.

TopGunn#22
12-10-2012, 09:09 AM
They have made 2 good trades in acquiring young pitching. But it is beyond frustrating that they clearly refuse to go after some arms thru free agency. Really, signing Marcum and Saunders to 3 year deals wouldn't kill them. They would at least have a couple major league pitchers controlled thru 2015 to go with Worley, Diamond, Gibson and Hendricks. Depending on how they pitch and how the team performs, you either keep Marcum and Saunders or you deal them to contending teams at or near the deadline. With the TV money each team will be receiving in 2014 and beyond the Twins inactivity is enough to make you grind your teeth.

johnnydakota
12-10-2012, 09:38 AM
They have made 2 good trades in acquiring young pitching. But it is beyond frustrating that they clearly refuse to go after some arms thru free agency. Really, signing Marcum and Saunders to 3 year deals wouldn't kill them. They would at least have a couple major league pitchers controlled thru 2015 to go with Worley, Diamond, Gibson and Hendricks. Depending on how they pitch and how the team performs, you either keep Marcum and Saunders or you deal them to contending teams at or near the deadline. With the TV money each team will be receiving in 2014 and beyond the Twins inactivity is enough to make you grind your teeth.

The Minnesota Twins need to expand payroll and become players for upper tier free agents or commite to rebuilding,
straddling the fence only gives you a case of blue balls,so either go get Hamilton , Sanchez and a shortstop,or trade
Willingham,Justin and Joe and really commite to the future....

ThePuck
12-10-2012, 09:51 AM
"Let's make something very clear. Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Salvador Perez and Alcides Escobar signed here long-term with the full expectation that we, as a baseball operations department, would do everything that we can to put the best team on the field every single night," Moore said. "That's what we've committed to our fans, that's what we've committed to our players, so when an opportunity comes along that you can acquire a pitcher like James Shields and Wade Davis, we have to do it."

jharaldson
12-10-2012, 09:58 AM
It's kind of humorous how people are surprised that rebuilding teams trade veterans and are hesitant to sign aging and declining veterans to long contracts.

It's incredible, isn't it?

I have yet to see any real sentiment about not making the trades Ryan has made or signing guys to long term deals that may block minor league talent from coming up in 2014-2015 but how would have signing/trading for Haren to a 1 year contract and getting Blanton or McCarthy for 2 years impacted the next talent wave? Using our payroll for decent options this year instead of settling on lower tier guys like Myers and Lannan would have sent a message that even though we are setting up for the future when guys like Sano, Meyer, May, Berrios, ect.... arrive we are still trying to compete by maximizing what we have in 2013.

twinsnorth49
12-10-2012, 10:05 AM
"Let's make something very clear. Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Salvador Perez and Alcides Escobar signed here long-term with the full expectation that we, as a baseball operations department, would do everything that we can to put the best team on the field every single night," Moore said. "That's what we've committed to our fans, that's what we've committed to our players, so when an opportunity comes along that you can acquire a pitcher like James Shields and Wade Davis, we have to do it."

Fair enough, but what else would you expect him to say? "I took a big risk here folks, gave up a lot but I'm pretty sure it's a good move". His statement is called, rhetoric.

This may make sense for the Royals right now, although certainly no given. I don't believe a move like this makes sense for the Twins given where they are at, in a couple of years if Gibson, Meyer, May, Sano, et al are performing as expected, sure, but not now.

Boom Boom
12-10-2012, 10:17 AM
I predict the Twins will have a payroll right around $80 million after signing a couple cheap free agent pitchers.

TR's on record saying that one player earning 25% of the payroll is bad business. The Twins would need a payroll greater than $92 million to not be in that situation.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 10:33 AM
If I were Gardy I would say stick it!

Shane Wahl
12-10-2012, 10:47 AM
They have made 2 good trades in acquiring young pitching. But it is beyond frustrating that they clearly refuse to go after some arms thru free agency. Really, signing Marcum and Saunders to 3 year deals wouldn't kill them. They would at least have a couple major league pitchers controlled thru 2015 to go with Worley, Diamond, Gibson and Hendricks. Depending on how they pitch and how the team performs, you either keep Marcum and Saunders or you deal them to contending teams at or near the deadline. With the TV money each team will be receiving in 2014 and beyond the Twins inactivity is enough to make you grind your teeth.

Signing Saunders to a three-year deal would kill ​me.

zenser
12-10-2012, 10:52 AM
I guess I was under the illusion a lot of other Twins fans were under a few years ago. I thought, because the Twins told us so, that having a revenue source from a new stadium like Target Field would allow the Twins to be competitive in the FA market. I am not saying to spend money to just spend money. Do you really think they even kicked the tires on Greinke? Me either. I have season tickets too but it is getting harder and harder to write that check.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 11:03 AM
I guess I was under the illusion a lot of other Twins fans were under a few years ago. I thought, because the Twins told us so, that having a revenue source from a new stadium like Target Field would allow the Twins to be competitive in the FA market. I am not saying to spend money to just spend money. Do you really think they even kicked the tires on Greinke? Me either. I have season tickets too but it is getting harder and harder to write that check.

I don't understand the lament over the Greinke signing. It's a six year deal at $25m per and Greinke has an opt-out after the third season. Greinke is a good pitcher. He's not a great one and that kind of money and years is ridiculous.

I'd rather have Sanchez at five years, $75m or Jackson at four years, $60m over that Greinke contract any day of the freakin' week (plus/minus $5m to the Jackson or Sanchez contracts).

The Twins should be playing in the middle of the free agent pool, not the deep end. Those contracts almost never work out for the team that "wins" the free agent whereas there's a damned good chance the Twins would be completely screwed if they had $50m a year invested in Mauer and Greinke through 2018.

drivlikejehu
12-10-2012, 11:25 AM
Payroll needs fluctuate over time. There is no real point in throwing away a bunch of money on a rebuilding team. But, there is a lot of value in bolstering a contender. However, the Pohlads will never say anything about investing more down the road, because they have zero intention of doing so.

It's not even about what the Pohlads owe to the taxpayers, who handed them hundreds of millions of dollars in exchange for nothing, even though their family tried very hard to make the team disappear off the face of the Earth. I know for sure they couldn't care less about that. But it's actually bad business not to invest in a contending team, because a relatively small investment can pay huge dividends if the team makes the playoffs (particularly if it advances).

twinsnorth49
12-10-2012, 12:05 PM
I guess I was under the illusion a lot of other Twins fans were under a few years ago. I thought, because the Twins told us so, that having a revenue source from a new stadium like Target Field would allow the Twins to be competitive in the FA market. I am not saying to spend money to just spend money. Do you really think they even kicked the tires on Greinke? Me either. I have season tickets too but it is getting harder and harder to write that check.

I don't understand the lament over the Greinke signing. It's a six year deal at $25m per and Greinke has an opt-out after the third season. Greinke is a good pitcher. He's not a great one and that kind of money and years is ridiculous.

This, just this. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing32.gif

zenser
12-10-2012, 12:11 PM
I guess I was under the illusion a lot of other Twins fans were under a few years ago. I thought, because the Twins told us so, that having a revenue source from a new stadium like Target Field would allow the Twins to be competitive in the FA market. I am not saying to spend money to just spend money. Do you really think they even kicked the tires on Greinke? Me either. I have season tickets too but it is getting harder and harder to write that check.

I don't understand the lament over the Greinke signing. It's a six year deal at $25m per and Greinke has an opt-out after the third season. Greinke is a good pitcher. He's not a great one and that kind of money and years is ridiculous.

I'd rather have Sanchez at five years, $75m or Jackson at four years, $60m over that Greinke contract any day of the freakin' week (plus/minus $5m to the Jackson or Sanchez contracts).

The Twins should be playing in the middle of the free agent pool, not the deep end. Those contracts almost never work out for the team that "wins" the free agent whereas there's a damned good chance the Twins would be completely screwed if they had $50m a year invested in Mauer and Greinke through 2018.
I am not saying the Greinke deal was a good one. I don't think Sanchez at 15 million a season is a great deal either for a guy with a mid 3 era that pitched half his games in a pitchers park in the NL, but given how free agency is going it will take all of 15 million a season for Sanchez. I am just tired of having the retread free agents be the only one's that we can afford. I don't have the link but ESPN had a story a few days ago where the average salary was something like 3 to 5 million. I don't remember the exact figure. If we aren't willing to spend over what the average salary is, we definitely aren't going to improve via free agency.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 12:13 PM
I am not saying the Greinke deal was a good one. I don't think Sanchez at 15 million a season is a great deal either for a guy with a mid 3 era that pitched half his games in a pitchers park in the NL, but given how free agency is going it will take all of 15 million a season for Sanchez. I am just tired of having the retread free agents be the only one's that we can afford. I don't have the link but ESPN had a story a few days ago where the average salary was something like 3 to 5 million. I don't remember the exact figure. If we aren't willing to spend over what the average salary is, we definitely aren't going to improve via free agency.

And I agree with you. I just don't think Greinke would have been a good idea. The Twins should be targeting mid-tier guys, not bidding against the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs of the world.

ThePuck
12-10-2012, 02:07 PM
And I agree with you. I just don't think Greinke would have been a good idea. The Twins should be targeting mid-tier guys, not bidding against the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs of the world.

So it's important for us to know our place? What excuse did ownership use to trick, er, convince the taxpayers that the new park was needed?

Jerr
12-10-2012, 02:27 PM
All I know is that my stance is that if they insist they are going to compete next year..and they don't spend the money on a decent pitcher, I'm not spending a dime to go see them play until I actually see they are competitive. If they'd spend the money to make it look.like an effort for 2013 is in place, I'd probably buy some tickets in advance. If their roster solutions consist of the lower tier variety, I'm not forking over a dime in advance.

All this talk of people saying how the Pohlads spend their millions of dollars and how it's not our money.. well that is how I will move forward regarding my money and the team.

Same here and a Twin Fan since 1961!!!!!!

Jerr
12-10-2012, 02:43 PM
Once the Twins went to Target Field...I was priced out of "opening night"...after 8 years of being there with my son (the next generation of their fans)....my money, as is the Twins..... is mine.... they dont spend theirs...... I dont spend mine, ON them.......

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 03:10 PM
I am not saying the Greinke deal was a good one. I don't think Sanchez at 15 million a season is a great deal either for a guy with a mid 3 era that pitched half his games in a pitchers park in the NL, but given how free agency is going it will take all of 15 million a season for Sanchez. I am just tired of having the retread free agents be the only one's that we can afford. I don't have the link but ESPN had a story a few days ago where the average salary was something like 3 to 5 million. I don't remember the exact figure. If we aren't willing to spend over what the average salary is, we definitely aren't going to improve via free agency.

And I agree with you. I just don't think Greinke would have been a good idea. The Twins should be targeting mid-tier guys, not bidding against the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs of the world. If you bid against the big boys then you have something they want to and you can compete and trade with them too.

johnnydakota
12-10-2012, 03:19 PM
After the disaster of 2011 the twins earned 26 million,they cut payroll 18 million and in 2012 earn over 32 million(im seeing a pattern here)
I guess we need to see the big picture,if Ryan reduces payroll to around 78 million this year ,then maybe ownership will earn 40 million for the year.Also we would qualify to recieve profit sharing, and a lottery pick.So thats a double win for the team , just not in the won/loss colume

Kirby Judson
12-10-2012, 03:41 PM
I know that this team needs pitching, but I just don't see the point of paying 5-8 million for a back of the rotation guy, when we can just let Hendricks, Deduno, Walters, Devries, etc do the same thing. Signing Liriano or trading for Capuano does absolutely nothing for me. I'd rather spend that money taking a chance on someone like Stephen Drew. Why waist 15 million on the next 2 Jason Marquis. I applaud TR for waiting this thing out.

mike wants wins
12-10-2012, 04:52 PM
Most of us agree...but think instead they should sign one of these expensive guys who should be good for 3 to 5 years.

zenser
12-10-2012, 05:00 PM
I was just hoping that we would be competitive in the free agent market like we were told when Target Field was built and not in the market for Jason Marquis or Kevin Corriea.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 05:16 PM
And I agree with you. I just don't think Greinke would have been a good idea. The Twins should be targeting mid-tier guys, not bidding against the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs of the world.

So it's important for us to know our place? What excuse did ownership use to trick, er, convince the taxpayers that the new park was needed?

The state of Minnesota could be handing the Twins $100m a year and they still couldn't compete with the revenue flow of the Dodgers and Yankees. That's not trickery, that's plain ol' reality. Target Field certainly helps but it's not going to turn the Twins into a financial powerhouse. Minnesota is still a mid-sized population with mid-sized revenue streams through television and radio.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 05:17 PM
I am not saying the Greinke deal was a good one. I don't think Sanchez at 15 million a season is a great deal either for a guy with a mid 3 era that pitched half his games in a pitchers park in the NL, but given how free agency is going it will take all of 15 million a season for Sanchez. I am just tired of having the retread free agents be the only one's that we can afford. I don't have the link but ESPN had a story a few days ago where the average salary was something like 3 to 5 million. I don't remember the exact figure. If we aren't willing to spend over what the average salary is, we definitely aren't going to improve via free agency.

And I agree with you. I just don't think Greinke would have been a good idea. The Twins should be targeting mid-tier guys, not bidding against the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs of the world. If you bid against the big boys then you have something they want to and you can compete and trade with them too.

That... Doesn't make sense.

USAFChief
12-10-2012, 06:02 PM
The state of Minnesota could be handing the Twins $100m a year and they still couldn't compete with the revenue flow of the Dodgers and Yankees.

Well if they were ​given $100m a year, they could only put $50m of that toward payroll, right?

johnnydakota
12-10-2012, 06:10 PM
Most of us agree...but think instead they should sign one of these expensive guys who should be good for 3 to 5 years.

with 30 million to spend we could get both Sanchez and Jackson,and still have money for a cheap outfielder

old nurse
12-10-2012, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE=ThePuck;69780][QUOTE=Brock Beauchamp;69739]
QUOTE]

The state of Minnesota could be handing the Twins $100m a year and they still couldn't compete with the revenue flow of the Dodgers and Yankees. That's not trickery, that's plain ol' reality. Target Field certainly helps but it's not going to turn the Twins into a financial powerhouse. Minnesota is still a mid-sized population with mid-sized revenue streams through television and radio.

Cable and dish usage in the Twin Cities is one of the lowest in the nation. Their TV revenue almost makes them aa small market team

Kwak
12-10-2012, 06:20 PM
Grienke was always signing with the Dodgers--they were just hammering out the last details. That $280MM/year revenue stream pretty much ensures they get anybody they want--for awhile.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 06:37 PM
The state of Minnesota could be handing the Twins $100m a year and they still couldn't compete with the revenue flow of the Dodgers and Yankees.

Well if they were ​given $100m a year, they could only put $50m of that toward payroll, right?

I really hate payroll arguments. The only point I care to make is that the Twins are not one of the premiere revenue franchises. That's just how it is. Complaining that they're not competing with New York, Boston, Dallas, Los Angeles, etc. is just whining. The Dodgers just handed Greinke an absurd contract. They can do that because they can afford to eat $25m a year in a $200m payroll. The Twins simply can't take that risk.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 06:43 PM
Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti said Monday that the club could explore a contract extension with left-hander Clayton Kershaw in the coming weeks.

Colletti was asked the question at the press conference for left-hander Hyun-Jin Ryu. Kershaw is owed $11 million next season and remains under team control through 2014, so there's not a huge sense of urgency to get a deal done right away, but Zack Greinke's six-year, $147 million contract would likely function as the benchmark for any talks. He could top $200 million when it's all said and done.

Source: Dylan Hernandez on Twitter (https://twitter.com/dylanohernandez/status/278270718020571136)

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 06:54 PM
The Twins simply can't take a risk, but the taxpayers can.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 06:59 PM
Why is Greinke, Sanchez or Jackson a risk?

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 07:25 PM
If the Twins can't afford to keep payroll near 100M there is only going to be bad times for the Twins.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 07:26 PM
Why is Greinke, Sanchez or Jackson a risk?

Greinke signed for $25m for six years. How is that not a risk? The Twins can't afford to have two non-productive players eating up $50m of roster space from 2015-2018, which is where they may be if they signed Greinke.

However, there's no excuse not to sign a guy like Jackson for 3-4 years and $45-60m. The deal is short enough to not completely hamstring the team if something goes wrong.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 07:46 PM
Greinke would have put Twins close to 100M thats all and got the pitcher most needed. I'm sure is if the Twins got hamstrung in a few years they could trade Grienke for Profar or some real prospects like the Rays did with Shields. You need something valuable to work with.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 07:54 PM
Greinke would have put Twins close to 100M thats all and got the pitcher most needed. I'm sure is if the Twins got hamstrung in a few years they could trade Grienke for Profar or some real prospects like the Rays did with Shields. You need something valuable to work with.

Let's say Greinke turns into a lemon three years into the contract. You now have a declining Mauer and a worthless Greinke eating $50m. What do you do in that situation?

(answer: lose a lot of games)

Einstein
12-10-2012, 08:00 PM
Greinke would have put Twins close to 100M thats all and got the pitcher most needed. I'm sure is if the Twins got hamstrung in a few years they could trade Grienke for Profar or some real prospects like the Rays did with Shields. You need something valuable to work with.

Let's say Greinke turns into a lemon three years into the contract. You now have a declining Mauer and a worthless Greinke eating $50m. What do you do intl that situation?

(answer: lose a lot of games)What make you think he's going to turn into a lemon?

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 08:04 PM
Every pitcher has a large chance of turning into a lemon.

When it comes to a pitcher, if you can't absorb 100% of the contract with zero production in return, don't sign the contract. It's too dangerous. Pitchers are far too volatile. Doing crap like that is a good way to guarantee an underperforming team for a half decade or better.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 08:12 PM
Even a sucker will buy a lemon for a prospect, and what if he won 20 games and wins CY? Mauer will always hit, h o f so people will always come to see him play.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 08:14 PM
Even a sucker will buy a lemon for a prospect, and what if he won 20 games and wins CY? Mauer will always hit, h o f so people will always come to see him play.

Tell that to the Giants, who couldn't give Barry Zito away. If a player is bad enough, you can't give him away, much less get a prospect in return. Best case scenario is that you get lucky and find someone insane enough to take a bad player on waivers, like the Sox did with Rios.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 08:19 PM
6 years for a 30 year old is not that long, a ace. Doubtful Twins will contend without one in 6 years. Better to take a risk than sit on your hands and hope for Liriano.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 08:25 PM
6 years for a 30 year old is not that long, a ace. Doubtful Twins will contend without one in 6 years. Better to take a risk than sit on your hands and hope for Liriano.

A six year contract is a very long time for ANY pitcher. A better course of action is to spend less per player and pick up two pitchers for a shorter term. That way you're not worried about paying $25m to a 35 year old Greinke, who isn't that freakin good in the first place. Again, he's a good pitcher. He's not a great one. And you don't pay $25m to that kind of guy (and let's remember that the Dodgers won Greinke at $25m per, that means the Twins would have to offer $26-27m per year to get him).

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 08:27 PM
CC & Doc were risks that turned out good. Zito contract was bad, but he has been improving alot eats innnings and gave the rest of there staff to shine.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 08:34 PM
CC & Doc were risks that turned out good. Zito contract was bad, but he has been improving alot eats innnings and gave the rest of there staff to shine.

Halladay was pretty bad last year, only pitched 150 innings, and it was only the third year of his deal.

CC Sabathia is inhuman. He's one of those extremely rare arms that could pitch 300 innings a season for two decades.

Brock Beauchamp
12-10-2012, 08:38 PM
Also note that those two guys went to the #1 and #2 payrolls in baseball when they signed.

twinsnorth49
12-10-2012, 09:37 PM
6 years for a 30 year old is not that long, a ace. Doubtful Twins will contend without one in 6 years. Better to take a risk than sit on your hands and hope for Liriano.

Again, he's a good pitcher. He's not a great one. And you don't pay $25m to that kind of guy

This, just this.......again.

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 09:38 PM
It takes money to make money and that is why they win.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-10-2012, 09:40 PM
6 years for a 30 year old is not that long, a ace. Doubtful Twins will contend without one in 6 years. Better to take a risk than sit on your hands and hope for Liriano.

A six year contract is a very long time for ANY pitcher. A better course of action is to spend less per player and pick up two pitchers for a shorter term. That way you're not worried about paying $25m to a 35 year old Greinke, who isn't that freakin good in the first place. Again, he's a good pitcher. He's not a great one. And you don't pay $25m to that kind of guy (and let's remember that the Dodgers won Greinke at $25m per, that means the Twins would have to offer $26-27m per year to get him).

I agree. If the Twins were an ace away from a serious playoff run... it's a risk i'd love to see the Twins take once... but you don't sign the giant free agent pitcher before you build a contender... otherwise you waste what will almost always be the most productive years (years 1 and 2) building a team around him.

edavis0308
12-10-2012, 09:40 PM
Have no fear everyone! MLBTR reporting we are close to a two year deal with Kevin Crappiea!

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 09:43 PM
ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Twins are close to a two-year deal with Kevin Correia.


Related: Twins (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/min/twins)

Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/278341570669998081)

Top Gun
12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Twins have agreed to a two-year, $10 million deal with Kevin Correia.

The 32-year-old right-hander posted an underwhelming 4.21 ERA and 1.30 WHIP in 171 innings this past summer for the Pirates but should get a nice boost in fantasy value with the move to the more pitcher-friendly confines of Target Field. Correia also drew serious free agent interest this offseason from the Rockies, Orioles, Brewers, Royals and at least one team from Japan.
Related: Twins (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/min/twins)

Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitte (https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/278343825901121536)

Shane Wahl
12-10-2012, 10:18 PM
Well that likely settles it. 75-80 million it is. Kevin Correia is a bad pitcher. He is Nick Blackburn pre-2012, but could clearly turn into Blackburn 2012 in 2013. The K rate fell of a cliff. He's a 5th starter and likely will bring the same value Deduno, DeVries, or Hendriks would for 10 times the cost.

greengoblinrulz
12-10-2012, 10:54 PM
Give or take.....current 25 man payroll is 75million.
Again, Im not a payroll guy....but how its spent..... 10.5m (14%) bein spent on Kevin Correia/Nick Blackburn for one terrible 5th starter.
One starter to go???

howeda7
12-10-2012, 11:09 PM
At this point, we won't go over $80 million on pitching. I'd like to see an upgrade at 2B as well. One spot for Florimon, Dozier and Escobar to fight over is enough. Let's get a veteran for the other. (I prefer Carroll as the utility guy.)

rogrulz30
12-10-2012, 11:41 PM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.

Einstein
12-10-2012, 11:43 PM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.Probably wouldn't matter, I doubt they'd spend the money anyways.

howeda7
12-11-2012, 12:16 AM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.Probably wouldn't matter, I doubt they'd spend the money anyways.

If the Twins traded Mauer, they'd have a $65 million payroll in 2013. Tops.

kab21
12-11-2012, 12:29 AM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.

How does trading Mauer so they can sign Dempster and Jackson make any sense when they would still have a <80M payroll?

The Twins still have 25M this offseason to spend (and they could push that number higher). And there's more money next offseason. There is no reason to trade Mauer to free up money. The problem is whether or not they will spend it and whether or not they ridiculously overpay.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 06:59 AM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.

Right now, payroll is not the limiting factor for the Twins. They're wellllllll under their 2012 payroll number.

USAFChief
12-11-2012, 10:59 AM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.

Right now, payroll is not the limiting factor for the Twins. They're wellllllll under their 2012 payroll number.

which was wellllllll under their 2011 payroll number. All signs seem to indicate payroll IS a limiting factor, and that 2013's payroll will be welllllll under 2012.


At this rate, by 2014, we could be back to dome numbers. But hey, I've been told payroll doesn't matter, so what the heck.

Brock Beauchamp
12-11-2012, 11:25 AM
I am going to continuously back up my point of the number 1 priority should have been unloading Mauer this off season to the Red Sox, if Peter Gammons was correct, and he is a good resource, the Twins should have done it. Mauer's contract will never allow the Twins to win. They had an opportunity with a good lineup to be competitive, Smith blew it, Ryan has to rebuild the system, the Mauer contract killed the Twins and they had a chance to unload it.

Right now, payroll is not the limiting factor for the Twins. They're wellllllll under their 2012 payroll number.

which was wellllllll under their 2011 payroll number. All signs seem to indicate payroll IS a limiting factor, and that 2013's payroll will be welllllll under 2012.

At this rate, by 2014, we could be back to dome numbers. But hey, I've been told payroll doesn't matter, so what the heck.

And if the Twins do that, I'll be the first in line with a torch and pitchfork in hand. But until that happens, I'm not going to speculate wildly. The drop in payroll after 2011 was a given; the team went from receiving revenue sharing to paying into the system, a swing of thirty million dollars.

edavis0308
12-11-2012, 12:29 PM
And if the Twins do that, I'll be the first in line with a torch and pitchfork in hand. But until that happens, I'm not going to speculate wildly. The drop in payroll after 2011 was a given; the team went from receiving revenue sharing to paying into the system, a swing of thirty million dollars.


Blah blah blah ~$25M in increased TV revenues. I felt like it needed to be brought up once more. :)

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 12:40 PM
All signs seem to indicate payroll IS a limiting factor, and that 2013's payroll will be welllllll under 2012.

Denard Span is set to earn $11.25M the next two years - Washington pays that now. We were hoping this money would be applied to improving the starting pitching. Well, $10M has now been applied to Correia. If the payroll is a limiting factor, it's because of decisions made like this one.

StormJH1
12-11-2012, 02:05 PM
All signs seem to indicate payroll IS a limiting factor, and that 2013's payroll will be welllllll under 2012.

Denard Span is set to earn $11.25M the next two years - Washington pays that now. We were hoping this money would be applied to improving the starting pitching. Well, $10M has now been applied to Correia. If the payroll is a limiting factor, it's because of decisions made like this one.
Denard Span was NOT traded to free up money - he was traded because he was an aging asset on a team going nowhere next year, and moving him for a 2011 first-rounder to address glaring depth issues in young pitching made a ton of sense.

I frankly don't care what the salary number is for next season. With the exception of the CF situation (which is being rebuilt for the future anyway), it's not like this offense is going to be any worse "on paper" than it was last season. There's even some money left over to add a 2B or SS, though I'm not seeing a ton of indication that TR will actually do that.

As for the pitching, a bunch of guys left that weren't factors by the end of 2012 anyway (Baker, Pavano, Liriano earlier). This team won 66 games last year, worst in the AL. There's beginning to be some hope for 2014 and beyond, so any long term commitments you make to medicore veterans at this point are only going to be an impediment following 2013. And frankly, it's not like 2013 can get much worse than 2012 anyway, no matter how much the payroll drops.

As this team transitions into a more obvious rebuild situation, I don't think it does as much good to harp on how overpaid Mauer is. If this team is good in two or three years, it will be on the coattails of players on rookie contracts, much like the Rays have done for years. The fact that Mauer makes 20 times more than what they do will be symbolically frustrating, but ultimately pretty irrelevant to our success or failure. The team will have bottomed out enough to add free agents if they so choose, or start resigning young guys who are worth resigning.

ashburyjohn
12-11-2012, 02:28 PM
Denard Span is set to earn $11.25M the next two years - Washington pays that now. We were hoping this money would be applied to improving the starting pitching. Well, $10M has now been applied to Correia. If the payroll is a limiting factor, it's because of decisions made like this one.
Denard Span was NOT traded to free up money

I didn't say he was. At the time of the trade, it was observed that a side effect is that some fewer dollars were now committed, and could be used to get an even spiffier FA starting pitcher than might otherwise be signed. Now, it just happens that the money previously earmarked for Span is almost exactly matched by what will go to Correia. As we heard repeatedly during the recent election, it's just arithmetic - on a team with a finite and not very elastic budget, signing decisions have consequences.

mike wants wins
12-11-2012, 02:32 PM
I do not understand why signing a good pitcher to a multiyear deal is not about 2014.....how that handcuffs them for the future.

LoganJones
12-11-2012, 02:37 PM
Another way to look at it is that a byproduct of the Span trade frees up room to get Correia and a non-tender like Jurrjens, without prohibiting Marcum, Sanchez or Jackson. There are other factors that are ultimately frustrating those efforts.

StormJH1
12-12-2012, 08:10 AM
I didn't say he was. At the time of the trade, it was observed that a side effect is that some fewer dollars were now committed, and could be used to get an even spiffier FA starting pitcher than might otherwise be signed. Now, it just happens that the money previously earmarked for Span is almost exactly matched by what will go to Correia. As we heard repeatedly during the recent election, it's just arithmetic - on a team with a finite and not very elastic budget, signing decisions have consequences.

Ok, might have misunderstood that part. In any event, if your idea was that we essentially "traded" Span's money for Correia, I'm not necessarily troubled by that. We needed SP, even mediocre SP, more than we needed Denard Span moving forward, as crazy as that sounds. And aside from Correia, moving Span and Revere directly resulted in ADDING three starting pitchers in their early and mid 20's who can miss some bats.

Einstein
12-24-2012, 11:06 AM
Are the Twins still at the $70 million range for 2013? Worst record in the A.L. two years running and they cut $30 million in salary? Is that right? Or am I missing something?

Rosterman
12-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Yep, at $70-75 million. Next year they get an additional $25 million, plus Morneau and Carroll and Blackburn will be freed up. At the rate the Twins are going, by 2015 they will have repaid their investment in Target Field!

TheLeviathan
12-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Are the Twins still at the $70 million range for 2013? Worst record in the A.L. two years running and they cut $30 million in salary? Is that right? Or am I missing something?

Well, that depends on how true it is that Correia is only making 5.5M. He might have incentives to push that to 30M or so.

Jim Crikket
12-24-2012, 11:37 AM
Are the Twins still at the $70 million range for 2013? Worst record in the A.L. two years running and they cut $30 million in salary? Is that right? Or am I missing something?

I just posted an article on this last night at Knuckleballs (http://knuckleballsblog.com/2012/12/spending-the-twins-money-or-not/)(and re-posted here at TD this morning (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/jim-crikket/2317-spending-twins-money-not.html)). Absent another Major League signing, the Twins currently appear to have about $79,600,000 committed for 2013 (and this includes the $5.5 million they owe Nick Blackburn). It may be a few bucks more if you assume Rich Harden will make the Opening Day roster and get more than the MLB minimum should he do so. That would be more than $20 million LESS than the Opening Day payroll commitment a year ago.

So yeah... Joe Mauer's pay is certainly NOT affecting what the Twins FO can do right now. It's not that they can't afford better pitching, they are simply choosing not to acquire it.

johnnydakota
12-24-2012, 11:55 AM
I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?
well there is signing bonus caps for 1
and 2 if we never sign good players when will we get good players?

johnnydakota
12-24-2012, 12:16 PM
If the Twins traded Mauer, they'd have a $65 million payroll in 2013. Tops.

and an 80 million dollar payroll with him

Jim Crikket
12-24-2012, 12:22 PM
And if the Twins do that, I'll be the first in line with a torch and pitchfork in hand. But until that happens, I'm not going to speculate wildly. The drop in payroll after 2011 was a given; the team went from receiving revenue sharing to paying into the system, a swing of thirty million dollars.

You might want to at least get the torch and pitchfork handy, Brock.

In 2007, the Twins opened the year with a $71,439,500 payroll (according to Cot's). As things stand now, if we consider Nick Blackburn's 2013 pay as a sunk cost, the remainder of the Twins payroll looks to be about $74,100,000. Adjusted for even moderate inflation (and there's been nothing moderate about the rate of inflation of MLB salaries), I think we're already in the Metrodome payroll neighborhood.

johnnydakota
12-24-2012, 12:39 PM
Let's say Greinke turns into a lemon three years into the contract. You now have a declining Mauer and a worthless Greinke eating $50m. What do you do in that situation?

(answer: lose a lot of games)

then you send them to rochester till they quit or some one else picks them up

Einstein
12-24-2012, 12:40 PM
I just posted an article on this last night at Knuckleballs (http://knuckleballsblog.com/2012/12/spending-the-twins-money-or-not/)(and re-posted here at TD this morning (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/jim-crikket/2317-spending-twins-money-not.html)). Absent another Major League signing, the Twins currently appear to have about $79,600,000 committed for 2013 (and this includes the $5.5 million they owe Nick Blackburn). It may be a few bucks more if you assume Rich Harden will make the Opening Day roster and get more than the MLB minimum should he do so. That would be more than $20 million LESS than the Opening Day payroll commitment a year ago.

So yeah... Joe Mauer's pay is certainly NOT affecting what the Twins FO can do right now. It's not that they can't afford better pitching, they are simply choosing not to acquire it.Thanks for the link! Good read!

johnnydakota
12-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Have no fear everyone! MLBTR reporting we are close to a two year deal with Kevin Crappiea!

gee the pitcher i said ryan would pursue and sign as our inning eating ace

johnnydakota
12-24-2012, 12:52 PM
And if the Twins do that, I'll be the first in line with a torch and pitchfork in hand. But until that happens, I'm not going to speculate wildly. The drop in payroll after 2011 was a given; the team went from receiving revenue sharing to paying into the system, a swing of thirty million dollars.
and they still pocketed 26 million in profits

jharaldson
12-24-2012, 12:53 PM
I just posted an article on this last night at Knuckleballs (http://knuckleballsblog.com/2012/12/spending-the-twins-money-or-not/)(and re-posted here at TD this morning (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/jim-crikket/2317-spending-twins-money-not.html)). Absent another Major League signing, the Twins currently appear to have about $79,600,000 committed for 2013 (and this includes the $5.5 million they owe Nick Blackburn).

Something else that supports a hard $80 million salary cap is that the Correia signing had $500,000 deferred into 2014 (2013-$4.5,2014-$5.5). Given we are $400,000 under $80 million this appears to have been done to stay under that number.

kab21
12-24-2012, 08:36 PM
I think it's awesome how people complain that the Twins don't spend enough in one thread and then complain about how ridiculous a player's new contract is in another.

I'm completely unimpressed with Corriea and Pelfrey and would have liked other relatively cheap options but there weren't many good options available and they got a lot of money. Here are the 10+M/yr FA's off the top of my head. there's spending and there's spending only for the sake of spending.

Marcum - ?
Guthrie - 3/25 - almost 10M/yr and he's not that good
Dempster - 2/26.5
Jackson - 4/52
Sanchez 5/80
Greinke - 6/147.5

Haren obviously signed a below market one year contract with a team of his choice so he wasn't an option unless of the Twins traded for his option with the Angels.

Jim Crikket
12-24-2012, 09:03 PM
I think it's awesome how people complain that the Twins don't spend enough in one thread and then complain about how ridiculous a player's new contract is in another.

I'm completely unimpressed with Corriea and Pelfrey and would have liked other relatively cheap options but there weren't many good options available and they got a lot of money. Here are the 10+M/yr FA's off the top of my head. there's spending and there's spending only for the sake of spending.

Marcum - ?
Guthrie - 3/25 - almost 10M/yr and he's not that good
Dempster - 2/26.5
Jackson - 4/52
Sanchez 5/80
Greinke - 6/147.5

Haren obviously signed a below market one year contract with a team of his choice so he wasn't an option unless of the Twins traded for his option with the Angels.

I think you're leaving out a few other options. For example:

Scott Baker $5.5 mil
Joe Blanton 2 yr/$15 mil
Scott Feldman $6 mil
Roberto Hernandez $3.25 mil
John Lannan $2.5 mil
Francisco Liriano 2 yr/$12.75 mil
Kyle Lohse - ?
Daisuke Matsuzaka - ?
Brandon McCarthy 2 yr/$15.5 mil
Brett Myers - ?
Carlos Villanueva 2 yr/$10 mil

Certainly all of these pitchers have various "warts". But the point is that there were... and remain... legitimate options better than Kevin Correia and Mike Pelfrey. And he should still have enough room to sign literally any one (and possibly two) of those that remain without threatening the Twins solvency.

edavis0308
12-25-2012, 12:52 AM
Unless Marcum is significantly injured, he ain't singing here. Though appreciated, redo accordingly.

ThePuck
12-25-2012, 02:17 AM
In reference to our 2007 payroll being in the 71.4M. Inflation calculator says that equals 79.28M today. And that's just normal inflation...before considering how much MLB players' salary has increased.

So if payroll sits in the high 70s or even mid 80s this upcoming season, why did we need the new park again? Of course, I love the new park, but why was it needed?

Highabove
12-25-2012, 03:05 AM
Twins Fans who buy tickets pay Major Market prices. This is one reason payroll strikes a nerve with many of us.
If you pay some of the highest prices in Baseball, you expect a quality product in return.

kab21
12-25-2012, 04:58 AM
I think you're leaving out a few other options. For example:

You're not raising payroll by going after <5M/yr guys. All signing those guys would do is reshuffle Correia and Pelfrey out of the backend (neither of which that I really like). If you want to raise payroll which is your complaint then you have to sign the high dollar guys. If I had my preference I would pick Dempster because if that contract doesn't work out then at least it's gone in two years. My first preference is Marcum though since indications are that he's not going to get more than 3 yrs and it won't be much above 10-12M/yr.

SweetOne69
12-25-2012, 06:37 AM
and they still pocketed 26 million in profits

That is not True. They had $26M in operating Revenue. Operating Revenue does NOT equal Profits.

70charger
12-25-2012, 10:36 PM
That is not True. They had $26M in operating Revenue. Operating Revenue does NOT equal Profits.

2951