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View Full Version : How bad will the slaughter be tomorrow?



luke829
12-08-2012, 01:51 PM
I may be pleasantly surprised, but I'm guessing that might be many a four-lettered word uttered.

TheLeviathan
12-08-2012, 08:53 PM
I think, sadly, they have a shot with the Bears defensive issues.

stringer bell
12-08-2012, 10:04 PM
Unless the Bears go +2 or better in the turnover battle, the Vikings win this one. I'm saying 20-17 Minnesota.

Reginald Maudling's Shin
12-09-2012, 11:05 AM
I think, sadly, they have a shot with the Bears defensive issues.

Unfortunately they may win. At this point, knowing they have no shot at the postseason (or more importantly doing anything in the postseason) all wins now will do is hurt their draft position and help Frazier and Musgrave keep their jobs. I have zero confidence in these two and very little in Ponder.

mike wants wins
12-09-2012, 11:16 AM
I too think they could win. I do think it could get ugly, fast. But I do think it will be close, and they could win.

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 12:27 PM
I'm done hearing about the offensive line being a problem. They ahve to get better at blitz pickup, but they are opening massive holes for Peterson and have been all year. They aren't a problem, if you've blamed them or still do....watch the games closer. This group is playing well enough to be called "good" at this point.

FrodaddyG
12-09-2012, 01:22 PM
This has all the makings of a "Wow, we're up 14-0!" game which transitions into a "Wait, it's late in the 4th, we're down by 10, have they really not scored since 7 minutes in?" game.

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 01:27 PM
That's a TD to Wright if Ponder didn't have a noodle arm. Jesus.

FrodaddyG
12-09-2012, 01:31 PM
They need a mortar shot sound effect to play whenever Ponder throws over 10 yards.

J-Dog Dungan
12-09-2012, 02:05 PM
I am biting my nails over this game. If the Vikes win, they have at least a chance of making the playoffs

J-Dog Dungan
12-09-2012, 02:11 PM
HAHAHHAHAHA. H-Smith taking their game and shoving it down their throat. Pick 6, Vikes 21-7 late in the 3rd quarter.

Kwak
12-09-2012, 03:27 PM
...and I thought you meant because of the snow storm.

luke829
12-09-2012, 03:35 PM
Wow, I come back in after clearing snow only to find a win was pulled out. Then I look out the window as I type this to find it snowing again. Irony.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-09-2012, 07:17 PM
@stl @hou(who will maybe Ben benching everyone) very well could come down to the last week of the season against GB.

Ponder sucks though, Christ.

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 07:21 PM
How many games is this now that we have won despite his awful performances? 3?

J-Dog Dungan
12-09-2012, 07:27 PM
Pretty close. Gotta have a few bad performances in a row over the next three weeks from Dallas, Washington, and Chicago to get in, as all three are in front of us in the standings. Extremely possible with Chicago with the kind of turd they are laying the second half of the season. With the injury to RG3, the Redskins are seemingly vulnerable at least next week. I don't know who Dallas is facing over the next three weeks, but let's hope these three teams lose out and the Vikes can win at least two out of three.

one_eyed_jack
12-09-2012, 07:51 PM
Ponder is to the Vikings what Johnny Flynn was to the T-Wolves. Collective WTF?! reaction from fans after they were drafted as a high as they were. Likeable guys, showed some early promise, but just aren't big league material. Except that the Vikes didn't draft a quarterback equivalent to Ricky Rubio when they drafted Ponder. (How's that for a Vikes/Wolves analogy on a Twins site.)

I've tried to be patient with Ponder, but he's at the point where things should be starting to click, and he's regressing.

Top Gun
12-09-2012, 08:03 PM
The Twins should only be this good.

Tcrose3636
12-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Maybe if the Vikings had a receiver that could catch the ball on third down last week, catch a pass in the end zone on an untipped ball that hits off the receivers shoulder pads. Yes Ponder makes mistakes, but he is not even two years in and showed in the beginning of the year that he can make plays. All thus bitching about him sounds like I am back out in Madison when Rodgers was taking over for Favre.

Westgaard66
12-09-2012, 10:00 PM
Ponder's 2 biggest issues:
1) lack of confidence
2) he's gun shy as hell. He won't stand in there, take some heat and try and make a throw. If he feels like there is a guy with 5 feet of him he is cowering and breaking out of the pocket.

TheLeviathan
12-09-2012, 10:57 PM
Maybe if the Vikings had a receiver that could catch the ball on third down last week, catch a pass in the end zone on an untipped ball that hits off the receivers shoulder pads. Yes Ponder makes mistakes, but he is not even two years in and showed in the beginning of the year that he can make plays. All thus bitching about him sounds like I am back out in Madison when Rodgers was taking over for Favre.

Yeah, your argument was going really well and you topped it off with Ponder-Rodgers comp. Couldn't have finished off this string of stupidity any better. Well done sir.

Willihammer
12-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Even that Aromashadou ball was a little underthrown. Has Ponder overthrown a wide out on a deep pattern all year, even once? Some people want a deep threat - I wonder if Ponder has the arm for a deep threat. He is constantly throwing behind guys on their routes.

one_eyed_jack
12-10-2012, 07:15 AM
Maybe if the Vikings had a receiver that could catch the ball on third down last week, catch a pass in the end zone on an untipped ball that hits off the receivers shoulder pads. Yes Ponder makes mistakes, but he is not even two years in and showed in the beginning of the year that he can make plays. All thus bitching about him sounds like I am back out in Madison when Rodgers was taking over for Favre.

---Yeah Rodgers is a good comp. After 2 dozen NFL starts, he was still looking increasingly clueless with each sub-100-yard passing performance, even though he had the best running back on the planet at his disposal and wasn't being asked to do much.

That was sarcasm in case you missed it.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 09:00 AM
---Yeah Rodgers is a good comp. After 2 dozen NFL starts, he was still looking increasingly clueless with each sub-100-yard passing performance, even though he had the best running back on the planet at his disposal and wasn't being asked to do much.

That was sarcasm in case you missed it.

Um, you forgot to blame Jarius Wright for not coming back 20 yards to catch that punt Ponder threw.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-10-2012, 09:06 AM
The Vikings WR is terrible no doubt and needs to be addressed, but Ponder is missing these guys even we they are able to get open.

I was a bit surprised yesterday, when you have a guy struggling like Ponder why the hell were they not calling more screen passes and short passes to a guy like Rudolph? (Who has had a pretty solid season, and a very good lat 3 weeks)

Once again the defense and Peterson bailed this team out, if they want to keep winning they absolutely need to get something from Ponder these last three games.

I will give this team credit though "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

It seems like everytime we get our hopes up they crush it, and the minute we give up on em they go out and get a big win. I know people will point to the Bears having injuries, but screw it, a dominating win over a division rival? Give me that any day of the week.

FrodaddyG
12-10-2012, 11:50 AM
I will give this team credit though "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"
You seem surprised. I could have sworn this wasn't your first year following the Vikings, Dave.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 04:55 PM
You seem surprised. I could have sworn this wasn't your first year following the Vikings, Dave.

Typically Dave just hallucinates playoff contention for all Minnesota teams regardless of their actual abilities. So it was probably just lip service. :)

luke829
12-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Not too sure if I want to wade back into this or not, but here goes.

While Ponder hasn't been given the opportunity to ride the bench and learn from a mentor (such as Rodgers did in Green Bay), the fact that his play makes the offense so one dimensional can only work for so long, no matter how great the star offensive player is. And as has been mentioned, the fact that he has regressed a tad only heightens the concern.

The fact that he still trots out onto the field only show how dire the QB situation is for the Vikes. An army without a good field general can only do so much.

Twins Twerp
12-10-2012, 06:37 PM
Not a vikes fan but in north east north dakota you seem to watch alot of vike games. In all honesty...is adrian peterson the best running back of all time? No joke. I saw him in favres last year...best ever

FrodaddyG
12-10-2012, 07:07 PM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

TheLeviathan
12-10-2012, 09:06 PM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

Well said. What's amazing to me is that when Percy was healthy and it was clear Ponder couldn't throw it to him past 5 yards he was still getting the ball and getting yardage....which is uncanny. Add to that the line somehow opening huge holes against 9 man fronts with a one dimensional offense and it's amazing this team isn't getting blanked week in and week out with his current level of play. If Percy was healthy I wouldn't hesitate to say a wildcat offense with him at QB would be better than what we are currently doing. And I think the wildcat is stupid.

one_eyed_jack
12-10-2012, 09:21 PM
Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.

J-Dog Dungan
12-10-2012, 09:47 PM
Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.
Maybe, but I think Webb is a fairly close comparison to Tebow, except he (Webb) is better.

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 12:46 AM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

Well said. What's amazing to me is that when Percy was healthy and it was clear Ponder couldn't throw it to him past 5 yards he was still getting the ball and getting yardage....which is uncanny. Add to that the line somehow opening huge holes against 9 man fronts with a one dimensional offense and it's amazing this team isn't getting blanked week in and week out with his current level of play. If Percy was healthy I wouldn't hesitate to say a wildcat offense with him at QB would be better than what we are currently doing. And I think the wildcat is stupid.
I'd have to go back and find the column where I saw it referenced, but I believe after 4 weeks, something like 22 of Ponder's completions were to Percy at or behind the line of scrimmage. Percy was averaging close to 10 yards per catch on those. Pretty unbelievable on the part of Percy, and would explain a fair chunk of Ponder's "impressive" early-season QB rating and completion %.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 01:02 AM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 01:56 AM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.
QB rating isn't a cumulative stat. He's effective in the situations they call on him, (which isn't many) which is all the Vikings need. (Ponder had a really sweet QB rating for six weeks, too.) QB rating can be a fickle thing for a QB that shouldn't be asked to throw much more than 20 times a game.

Smith is obviously better than Ponder, but citing his QB rating (and W/L record, which I'd credit just as much, if not more, to his dominant defense/running game as I would to anything Smith has done) is a slight bit deceptive. Smith was on a good team the last two years, and hasn't lost games for them. Sadly, Ponder can't even do that, and the Vikes somehow managed to win a handful of games that were clearly in spite of his play, not because of it. But realistically, how many teams will be lining up for Alex Smith's services if he's available in the offseason? Only a few, because he's a game manager, and not many teams have the QB situation that's in bad enough shape that he looks like a clear upgrade.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-11-2012, 10:38 AM
The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.
QB rating isn't a cumulative stat. He's effective in the situations they call on him, (which isn't many) which is all the Vikings need. (Ponder had a really sweet QB rating for six weeks, too.) QB rating can be a fickle thing for a QB that shouldn't be asked to throw much more than 20 times a game.

Smith is obviously better than Ponder, but citing his QB rating (and W/L record, which I'd credit just as much, if not more, to his dominant defense/running game as I would to anything Smith has done) is a slight bit deceptive. Smith was on a good team the last two years, and hasn't lost games for them. Sadly, Ponder can't even do that, and the Vikes somehow managed to win a handful of games that were clearly in spite of his play, not because of it. But realistically, how many teams will be lining up for Alex Smith's services if he's available in the offseason? Only a few, because he's a game manager, and not many teams have the QB situation that's in bad enough shape that he looks like a clear upgrade.
I think there will be some teams looking to bring in Smith, I really think he has some legit talent. 70% completion percentage this year, 70 QBR, had the lowest INT% in the league last year and a very low one this year as well.

He is exactly what the Vikes need. A guy who can throw the ball 25 times a game and complete 17-20 of them giving you about 200 yards a game.

I agree his "team" helped him out a bit, but his WR corp is pretty "meh", I think he is a bit better then the mediocre tag you throw out there. On this team he would be perfect, we would have certainly won the Packers, Redskins and Colts games with him(or honestly anyone) at the helm.

FrodaddyG
12-11-2012, 06:59 PM
I think there will be some teams looking to bring in Smith, I really think he has some legit talent. 70% completion percentage this year, 70 QBR, had the lowest INT% in the league last year and a very low one this year as well.

He is exactly what the Vikes need. A guy who can throw the ball 25 times a game and complete 17-20 of them giving you about 200 yards a game.

I agree his "team" helped him out a bit, but his WR corp is pretty "meh", I think he is a bit better then the mediocre tag you throw out there. On this team he would be perfect, we would have certainly won the Packers, Redskins and Colts games with him(or honestly anyone) at the helm.
I'm not really disagreeing with you. Smith is far and away the type of guy the Vikes should be trying to bring in. They aren't going to find a franchise guy on the open market, but Smith can do enough to make them competitive.

I think we're only at odds over the mediocre tag. He's succeeded the most when he's had to do the least. When he's had to try and shoulder the load with a more open offense, he's been unremarkable at best and bordered on awful during his first 5-6 years. Really, if not for Harbaugh thinking he could reclaim his career, he may have been out of the league by now, or holding a clipboard somewhere (else). It's why many teams with longer-term rebuilding plans won't look at him, but someone like the Vikes (who may simply need a QB to not lose the game for them), would be wise to snap him up and hope he can keep his 70% completions on limited attempts going forward. All we're disagreeing on is the mediocre tag, which I'll stand by. He's had two respectable years for a good team that followed 6 years of that same team being terrible with him at the helm. (When he wasn't playing poorly enough to lose his job to the likes of J.T. O'Sullivan, Shaun Hill, and Trent Dilfer.)

Badsmerf
12-12-2012, 01:26 PM
Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.
Maybe, but I think Webb is a fairly close comparison to Tebow, except he (Webb) is better.

No, Webb is not a fairly close comparison. Tebow has actually had sustained success and won a big playoff game on the road. Can't compare the two just because they are both athletic.