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View Full Version : Article: Ben Revere Traded to Philly for RHP Vance Worley & Top Pitching Prospect



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scottz
12-06-2012, 11:14 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/phillies-acquire-ben-revere.html

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:15 AM
My excitement is palpable.

Literally. I think I just crapped myself.

kab21
12-06-2012, 11:16 AM
I really did not see that coming but depending on the return I don't really disagree.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 11:17 AM
Who did we get in return??? That's when I'll find out if I crapped myself.

scottz
12-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Amazing to think about
1) what did they get for him?
2) who will roam our OF come opening day? Arcia? Roberts? Hicks? or do they go Mastro and make us wait longer on the kids?

scottz
12-06-2012, 11:19 AM
Knobler says Worley is part of the deal.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:19 AM
Who did we get in return??? That's when I'll find out if I crapped myself.

I have the feeling Ryan wouldn't give away a cost-controlled player without a significant return.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 11:20 AM
Twins acquire RHP Vance Worley.

Twins Twerp
12-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Tell me about this Worley guy

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Isn't he injured? Or did I read that wrong?

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Worley and a 'good pitching prospect'

kab21
12-06-2012, 11:22 AM
I'm not sure Worley should be considered a significant return but he should be a solid #3/4 to stop the bleeding. Interesting stat that troubles me is that while he has a decent K rate he has an awful swinging strike rate.

gunnarthor
12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Worley and a "good prospect." Damn. I'm really going to miss Revere.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Twins acquire RHP Vance Worley.

From MLBTR:


A good minor league pitching prospect is also headed to Minnesota in the trade, tweetsScott Miller of CBS Sports (https://twitter.com/ScottMCBS/statuses/276737616752279553)

deanlambrecht
12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Mid-high level crapping has commenced! Not that excited about Worley in particular, but incredibly excited that we were able to get that kind of value in exchange for Revere. Well played, TR. Well played.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 11:24 AM
AND RHP Trevor May. TR got this one right.

Twins Twerp
12-06-2012, 11:24 AM
Anything else coming back? A couple of "C" prospects perhaps

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure Worley should be considered a significant return but he should be a solid #3/4 to stop the bleeding. Interesting stat that troubles me is that while he has a decent K rate he has an awful swinging strike rate.

MLBTR is reporting that a "good" prospect was also included.

If true, that is ONE HELL of a haul for Revere.

Twins Twerp
12-06-2012, 11:25 AM
Can't wait to hear John call these guys "C" prospects

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:25 AM
AND RHP Trevor May. TR got this one right.

Holy crap. TR just ****ed the Phillies so hard.

Pardon my French. There's no better way to put it.

nicksaviking
12-06-2012, 11:25 AM
We got May too!

kab21
12-06-2012, 11:26 AM
Trevor May is prospect. Good upside but a mess mechanically according to prospect361 but I'm happy with the deal. Revere was solid but not that good nor should he have been considered a long term part of the team.

http://prospect361.com/nl-team-prospects/philadelphia-phillies/

johnnydakota
12-06-2012, 11:26 AM
whorely had bone chip removed in september , has 1.52 service years and a prospect , hopefully its is petitbone

nicksaviking
12-06-2012, 11:27 AM
A week ago, I don't know that Revere could have fetched either of them by himself. Timing is everything. Awesome.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm not sure Worley should be considered a significant return but he should be a solid #3/4 to stop the bleeding. Interesting stat that troubles me is that while he has a decent K rate he has an awful swinging strike rate.

MLBTR is reporting that a "good" prospect was also included.

If true, that is ONE HELL of a haul for Revere.

Worley and May??? lol... Brock... I just won the Revere Value argument.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Worley and May??? lol... Brock... I just won the Revere Value argument.

Timing is everything. Man, that is an AWESOME return on Revere.

nicksaviking
12-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Hahaha, Scott Boras and Michael Bourn are going to be pissed!

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 11:30 AM
Worley steps into the rotation immediately. May ought to be ready shortly as well.

As far as CF goes, unless the Twins acquire another one, it looks like Hicks is the guy now.

johnnydakota
12-06-2012, 11:30 AM
may 647 Ks in 525 innings , and whorely 1.52 service time and had a bone spur removed in september ...
ok now that is done who is our centerfielder? do we give hicks and benson a chance to step up in spring training or is darren our guy?

TheLeviathan
12-06-2012, 11:30 AM
Well played JR. Well played!

raindog
12-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Wow, huge trade. Both guys seem to have upside. Good K/9 rates. Worley had successful bone chip removal in September. Injury bothered him last year. The year before he had very nice numbers.

gunnarthor
12-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Worley and May. I guess it's a good gamble. Worley could be a TJ guy soon and isn't really much more than a #4 but should eat innings, which we really need and is cheap. May walks a lot of guys but if he can get that under control .... he's a gamble but a worthy one, I suppose.

Winston Smith
12-06-2012, 11:31 AM
A crazy idea.... would Gardy Sizemore be a good pick up if signed on a make good contract or is he still hurt? I haven't heard anyone say they thought Hicks or the other guys would be ready this spring.

Twins Twerp
12-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Chances the TWINS sign Michael "Jason" Bourn??? That is what this offseason was about.

Willihammer
12-06-2012, 11:33 AM
I guess they have been dangling these two guys for a few days: http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/phillies-talk/Phillies-dangle-Worley-May-as-trade-chip?blockID=809865&feedID=693

Good deal for both teams.

notoriousgod71
12-06-2012, 11:33 AM
How is the tone of the message board now????

Seth Stohs
12-06-2012, 11:34 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1233-Revere-Traded-to-Philly-for-Worley

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 11:34 AM
Wow, amazing trade.

The TR haters should be eating a lot of Crow these days.

Also, Philly fans will looooooovvveeeeee Revere...haha.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Regardless of how this plays out, I promise not to rip TR for this trade at any point down the line.

If this was the get for Revere, I'm kind of surprised we didn't get more for Span.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 11:37 AM
Revere for Worley straight up would have been a good trade.
Revere for May straight up would have been a great trade.

I can't believe we got both of these guys. Face it, Revere had maybe one year where he would be our best CF option. There is a good chance that by June he would have been back to a 4th OF anyways due to Hicks.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 11:37 AM
Great trade pretting effin excited for the return we got. Everyone...go to church this weekend and pray that Worley is not going to have Tommy John eventually. Someone tried to tell me the other day CFs have no value this year...look what we just got for Revere! Grade Trade...very excited.....! ;)

glanzer
12-06-2012, 11:37 AM
AND RHP Trevor May. TR got this one right.

Holy crap. TR just ****ed the Phillies so hard.

Pardon my French. There's no better way to put it.

Couldn't agree more. This is vintage Terry Ryan here. Has the feel of the Pierzynski trade... only way more initial excitement.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Revere for Worley straight up would have been a good trade.
Revere for May straight up would have been a great trade.

I can't believe we got both of these guys. Face it, Revere had maybe one year where he would be our best CF option. There is a good chance that by June he would have been back to a 4th OF anyways due to Hicks.

I cant believe we got both of these guys either! As much as I liked Revere he sooner or later would have been replaced...just like you said Dave.....My question is......Morneau and Willingham....are they next? I was reading the the Rockies believe Cuddyer has lots of value due to this OF market right now.....so I really wonder what Willingham could get us in return.

nicksaviking
12-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Chances the TWINS sign Michael "Jason" Bourn??? That is what this offseason was about.

Ha, none, Boras is going to be pissed at the Twins for flooding the market with cheap centerfielders. The Twins might as well go after Josh Hamilton.

cmathewson
12-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Interesting that we actually got more for Revere than we did for Span. I'd put May between Meyers and Gibson. Worley becomes the number 2 starter, for the time being, behind Scott Diamond.

neboo
12-06-2012, 11:40 AM
For some reason I picture TR sitting in a room with Ben Revere fielding highlights playing on a large screen behind him while the Phillies brass walks in. Using it as distraction to pull off the deal.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
AND RHP Trevor May. TR got this one right.

Holy crap. TR just ****ed the Phillies so hard.

Pardon my French. There's no better way to put it.

Couldn't agree more. This is vintage Terry Ryan here. Has the feel of the Pierzynski trade... only way more initial excitement.

This trade made me as hard as watching Kate Upton do the Cat Daddy Dance!

roger
12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
Will Joe Benson be starting in center field on opening day? Whereas Hicks may be the centerfielder of the short-term future, I doubt the Twins believe he will be ready on opening day. More likely sometime next summer. As for Benson, everything possible went wrong last year including two serious injuries (hamate bone and knee). What effect that had on his dismal season is unknown, however, one has to assume it had a real effect. If 100% healthy in spring, he just could report to Fort Myers and 'win' the starting centerfield job. On the other hand, Mr. Ryan will probably scrounge around for someone to compete with Mastroianni for center/4th outfielder should neither of the close kids win the job.

biggentleben
12-06-2012, 11:43 AM
Nice deal for the Twins, from a Braves fan perspective, I'm happy to see Worley out of the division. For some reason, he was the only righty (including Halladay) in the division that confuddled the Braves consistently. He's not an ace by any means, but he's a very solid pitcher whose stuff seems to "explode" to its location at the end. What that means, for those who don't understand the physics of it, is that unlike a normal pitch that slows down as it reaches the plate, Worley's pitch maintains velocity to the catcher's mitt, which is very deceptive to the hitter, and it leads to a lot of called strikes. I see May a lot like Meyer. If he can stick as a starter, he's ace possibility, but he's got a very high probability of spending his career as a stellar reliever rather than a starter because of some odd mechanics that could wear down over a season of 200+ innings.

nicksaviking
12-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Well there's really no doubt 2013 is a reabuild year now. There's no one batting ahead of Mauer who can get on base now. I hope the Twins go all in about the rebuild and keep getting prospects for the expendable vets. I can wait a year and seems like everyone on this board is in agreement. It will be a harder sell to the regular Twins fans watching at home though.

Miles
12-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Love Revere, but this seems like a great trade for the Twins.

Monkeypaws
12-06-2012, 11:47 AM
Well there's really no doubt 2013 is a reabuild year now. There's no one batting ahead of Mauer who can get on base now. I hope the Twins go all in about the rebuild and keep getting prospects for the expendable vets. I can wait a year and seems like everyone on this board is in agreement. It will be a harder sell to the regular Twins fans watching at home though.

It's easier top be patient when you have a competent GM at the helm as opposed to a bumbling buffoon.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 11:48 AM
I like what they got for Revere considering what Revere was but I believe Meyer will end up better than both of the guys we got for Revere.

I do love this trade though...partly cause I don't feel we lost much...but also because it addresses pitching for the present and future. Ryan robbed the Phillies GM, which is fun to see.

gunnarthor
12-06-2012, 11:49 AM
I don't mind rebuilding, I enjoy watching the Twins and spending time following prospects. Should be fun to watch young guys learn to play at the major league level.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Well there's really no doubt 2013 is a reabuild year now. There's no one batting ahead of Mauer who can get on base now. I hope the Twins go all in about the rebuild and keep getting prospects for the expendable vets. I can wait a year and seems like everyone on this board is in agreement. It will be a harder sell to the regular Twins fans watching at home though.

Unless they bring Hicks up and he does what he's capable of doing...heck bring up Hicks and Arcia now....which is what I wanted all along

Monkeypaws
12-06-2012, 11:51 AM
Good trade for Philly, great trade for the Twins.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:51 AM
I like what they got for Revere considering what Revere was but I believe Meyer will end up better than both of the guys we got for Revere.

I do love this trade though...partly cause I don't feel we lost much...but also because it addresses pitching for the present and future. Ryan robbed the Phillies GM, which is fun to see.

Meyer is a better prospect than May.

But given how many pitchers the Twins need in both the short and long term, it's impossible not to love this deal.

Brandon
12-06-2012, 11:53 AM
new top 10. I guess we should wait till spring training at this pace to do one of these lists.

1. Sano
2. Buxton
3. Arcia
4. Meyers
5. Hicks
6. Gibson
7. May
8. Rosario

THis system is getting deep.

I guess CF is now Hicks to lose.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 11:54 AM
I like what they got for Revere considering what Revere was but I believe Meyer will end up better than both of the guys we got for Revere.

I do love this trade though...partly cause I don't feel we lost much...but also because it addresses pitching for the present and future. Ryan robbed the Phillies GM, which is fun to see.

Meyer is a better prospect than May.

But given how many pitchers the Twins need in both the short and long term, it's impossible not to love this deal.

Exactly.....Is Morneau and Willingham next?!

stringer bell
12-06-2012, 11:55 AM
It had to be done, I guess. I liked Revere, but didn't think the Twins could carry him and Span in the OF (not enough power). Now, both are gone. Who plays center next year? Aaron Hicks? Joe Benson? Mastro? Well, you can't say that Ryan had a do-nothing Winter Meetings.

savvyspy
12-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I guess my purchase of the Nothing Runs Like A Revere t-shirt 2 days ago was the Kiss of Death. Great trade but love Revere.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 11:56 AM
Exactly.....Is Morneau and Willingham next?!

Hard to say. I think they'll open the season with both, really.

But if there is still a market for outfielders, I'm sure Ryan will listen. After all, there are divisions outside the NL East that might need an outfielder.

Mchans24
12-06-2012, 11:56 AM
PUMPED ABOUT THIS TRADE!! If Hicks isnt ready we can always use Bensons service time next year rather than waste Hicks. I imagine Hicks will win the job in Spring Training though. We now have pitching depth at AA and down!! 2014 we will be an up and coming team, 2015 look out! Terry Ryan is a Jedi!

gil4
12-06-2012, 11:57 AM
A crazy idea.... would Gardy Sizemore be a good pick up if signed on a make good contract or is he still hurt? I haven't heard anyone say they thought Hicks or the other guys would be ready this spring.

Sizemore just had another knee surgery, but if his first name was really "Gardy" the Twins would probably take him anyway.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8707436/grady-sizemore-had-more-surgery-miss-start-season-agent-says

Jeremy Nygaard
12-06-2012, 11:57 AM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

kab21
12-06-2012, 11:59 AM
I don't really understand why trading Revere all of sudden makes this a no doubt rebuild year. The Twins did not have a starting rotation and weren't going anywhere until that was addressed. That would have been impossible to fix w/o trading something away. In some ways this sets the Twins up to make a little bigger splash in FA although I don't expect it. They freed up Span's 5M and filled one of their pitching holes with a guy making the MLB minimum. Fewer holes to fill with the same amount of money allows them to pick up a better player (possibly). They also now have 3 legit pitching prospects that will come up in '13/'14.

In addition to that it's also possible that this pushes the Hicks timetable up and many have been disappointed that it didn't look like he would be in the majors early next year.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't really understand why trading Revere all of sudden makes this a no doubt rebuild year. The Twins did not have a starting rotation and weren't going anywhere until that was addressed. That would have been impossible to fix w/o trading something away. In some ways this sets the Twins up to make a little bigger splash in FA although I don't expect it. They freed up Span's 5M and filled one of their pitching holes with a guy making the MLB minimum. Fewer holes to fill with the same amount of money allows them to pick up a better player (possibly). They also now have 3 legit pitching prospects that will come up in '13/'14.

In addition to that it's also possible that this pushes the Hicks timetable up and many have been disappointed that it didn't look like he would be in the majors early next year.

Spot on. IMO, the loss of Revere is more than compensated for by the addition of Worley to the rotation. And May isn't far behind either.

wavedog
12-06-2012, 12:11 PM
We were in the right place at the rigth time for this trade. Phillies needed a CF and did not have the budget $ for Bourn (or Hamilton). Ryan probably wasn't looking to trade Revere but this deal was too good to pass up. Interesting if we bring Hicks up next year or make a trade for a stop-gap CF. We need someone who can cover some ground if Willingham and Parmelee are at the corner spots.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 12:11 PM
I like what they got for Revere considering what Revere was but I believe Meyer will end up better than both of the guys we got for Revere.

I do love this trade though...partly cause I don't feel we lost much...but also because it addresses pitching for the present and future. Ryan robbed the Phillies GM, which is fun to see.

Meyer is a better prospect than May.

But given how many pitchers the Twins need in both the short and long term, it's impossible not to love this deal.

I said I loved this trade...

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:11 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

Bingo. Contrary to some who think otherwise, the Phillies could have afforded a Bourn but got Revere on my "percentage of salary valuation" argument basis. (FWIW- If he performs at all in CF, which he should in that small ballpark, he'll be the top Range OF guy in all of MLB and end up getting extended after 2013)

No question though, Twins got a great trade. I'm excited that they have finally folded their cards and prepared for 2014/15.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:12 PM
I said I loved this trade...

I didn't mean to imply you weren't in favor of it.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 12:12 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

Well, Ryan was able to totally bone Philly who was desperate for a cheap CF with major league experience...so maybe, maybe not.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 12:13 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

Bingo. The Phillies could have afforded a Bourn but got Revere on my "percentage of salary valuation" argument basis.

No question though, Twins got a great trade. I'm excited that they have finally folded their cards and prepared for 2014/15.

Philly very likely can't afford Bourn or Hamilton

mnfanforlife
12-06-2012, 12:14 PM
Meyer is going to be an ace. True #1...So the Span return could be better than the Revere return...in time.

Mchans24
12-06-2012, 12:15 PM
I could see us being a contender in 2013 but Im not counting on it. 2014 and 2015 I am actually counting on. Of course, things could and will go wrong but I see us building our farm system back to a point that things are very optimistic. No doubt Terry will continue to look for this years Ryan Doumit, Josh Willingham and the relief pitcher who slips my mind right now in free agency. I think we need another REALLY solid pitcher to make us a contender. Even though I hate to say this, Liriano on a one year deal isnt a horrible option. The guy can be a real #1 at times. If he has one of those years and gets confidence early you never know.

edavis0308
12-06-2012, 12:16 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 12:17 PM
Exactly.....Is Morneau and Willingham next?!

Hard to say. I think they'll open the season with both, really.

But if there is still a market for outfielders, I'm sure Ryan will listen. After all, there are divisions outside the NL East that might need an outfielder.

Could Willingham get better players than Revere just did? I have a feeling Twins are quietly listening to what Morneau and Willingham could recieve. I honestly dont think this is the last trade we are going to make. I have a feeling one of those 2 will be traded for a pitcher.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 12:18 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

Now the question is.....WHO?!

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm not sure Worley should be considered a significant return but he should be a solid #3/4 to stop the bleeding. Interesting stat that troubles me is that while he has a decent K rate he has an awful swinging strike rate.

MLBTR is reporting that a "good" prospect was also included.

If true, that is ONE HELL of a haul for Revere.

Care to reconsider your evaluation or did Ryan do a major hose job on the Phillies?

Oxtung
12-06-2012, 12:19 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

Well, Ryan was able to totally bone Philly who was desperate for a cheap CF with major league experience...so maybe, maybe not.

We also don't know what Philly, the team with the most knowledge of their pitchers, felt about the futures of these 2. To me this reads as Philly was very uncomfortable with these pitchers futures. I think Philly wanted to get what value they could from these 2 before one potentially turns into a lemon and the other a pumpkin.

ericchri
12-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Here at Ben Revere Daily...

I'm really excited, we got a guy who looks to be a solid major leaguer and a prospect with upside. And it means we'll definitely see Hicks at some point next year, barring injury (knock on wood). If both pitchers pan out, this move is fantastic. There some pretty big question marks for both of them, though. My chronic page refreshing today is finally rewarded, however.

I've been looking forward to Aaron Hicks for a couple years now, he's almost the perfect example of what I want in a CF if he makes the transition successfully. It'll be interesting to see how they try and fill the position. Live with Mastro until Hicks is ready? Play Benson regardless of last year since he's already had service time in the majors? Throw Hicks in the deep end and see if he swims? Pick up a half-year rental from the scrap heap?

spideyo
12-06-2012, 12:19 PM
Well damn. I'm as big a Revere booster as anybody, but I guess I have to admit this is a good trade for the Twins. I'll miss Ben a lot, he was exciting to watch and an all around good guy. Hopefully he thrives in Philly and we see him back here in 2014 for the Allstar game.

This does definitely make Spring Training a lot more interesting. Willingham, Mauer, Doumit and Mourneau are the only guys that are going to show up in Florida knowing for sure what there role will be.

ThePuck
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

Now the question is.....WHO?!

I'm hoping Marcum. Marcum, Worley, Diamond and Gibson in the front 4. Not great, but it's a start...

messed up
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

E. Andrew
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
Very excited about this, have really liked Worley from afar for a couple years. Revere was fine and good, but the worst of our highest-rated ourtfield prospects. Pumped to get both a solid starter and a promising prospect - - very smart move.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...

Bingo. The Phillies could have afforded a Bourn but got Revere on my "percentage of salary valuation" argument basis.

No question though, Twins got a great trade. I'm excited that they have finally folded their cards and prepared for 2014/15.

Philly very likely can't afford Bourn or Hamilton

I've heard arguments both ways, but if you evaluate their cash flow, it probably only would have involved moving a vet or two to have made it happen.

SurroundedByTigers
12-06-2012, 12:20 PM
This means Hicks is the new starting centerfielder and lead-off man for Twins. He will probably struggle, and flop spots for Benson in the minors, but both will be up here by midseason. Next up to leave is Morneau, unfortunately. Twins might be able to solve a bullpen spot, and 3B for Morneau, with Parmalee moving to 1B. All these moves make the Twins more than competitive in 2nd half of 2013 moving forward.

Dilligaf69
12-06-2012, 12:21 PM
Can't see how you could be the least upset for this trade. This is a GREAT get for Revere...I'm shocked we got a starter and a top SP prospect for Ben...WOW!

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 12:21 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...


Or the "do the Phillies have a competent Front Office?" question can be put to rest....

Just because Barry Zito got 100 million several years ago doesn't mean that was his "value"

gunnarthor
12-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Exactly.....Is Morneau and Willingham next?!

Hard to say. I think they'll open the season with both, really.

But if there is still a market for outfielders, I'm sure Ryan will listen. After all, there are divisions outside the NL East that might need an outfielder.

Could Willingham get better players than Revere just did? I have a feeling Twins are quietly listening to what Morneau and Willingham could recieve. I honestly dont think this is the last trade we are going to make. I have a feeling one of those 2 will be traded for a pitcher.

I don't think Willingham or Morneau have that kind of value. I think both have better value at the trade deadline when a team (say Pitt) needs a power bat to stay in the race and the fans demand it.

That said, Ryan has pulled off two pretty nice trades already so Willingham for Bauer must be next.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:23 PM
Care to reconsider your evaluation or did Ryan do a major hose job on the Phillies?

Oh, Ryan hosed the Phillies, without a doubt.

And I was never that down on Revere's value. I thought he had a decent chance of maintaining his value through 2013, which is when I hoped he'd be traded (though I always said if an offer was there, take it and run like hell).

But I never valued him very high. There's a difference between how I value a guy and how one of 29 other general managers might value that guy. I don't believe I ever said the Twins couldn't get value for Revere, I simply said that extending him was ludicrous because his ceiling was relatively low (and that I think no-hit speedsters are a mistake in general).

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:23 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

Let's just say more than just a few TD regulars are stunned at the haul the Twins got. I'm pleasantly and enthusiastically "surprised" that the Twins could pull this off---
as they have historically tended to undervalue their assets and overvalue their acquisition targets.

Dilligaf69
12-06-2012, 12:24 PM
Don't see us paying for Marcum but 2 of Liriano/Lannan/Myers/Saunders is a possibility...for sure 1 of em???

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 12:24 PM
This means Hicks is the new starting centerfielder and lead-off man for Twins. He will probably struggle, and flop spots for Benson in the minors, but both will be up here by midseason. Next up to leave is Morneau, unfortunately. Twins might be able to solve a bullpen spot, and 3B for Morneau, with Parmalee moving to 1B. All these moves make the Twins more than competitive in 2nd half of 2013 moving forward.

I could see him having a very similar season to Torri Hunter's rookie season. Hicks like Hunter is already there defensively, his bat has shown promise and progress in the minors but I wouldn't be shocked to see him struggle a bit. (10HR and a .675 OPS or so). As long as he isn't hitting like Butera I think they should let him take his lumps until he truely "loses" the psot.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:25 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

Now the question is.....WHO?!

I'm hoping Marcum. Marcum, Worley, Diamond and Gibson in the front 4. Not great, but it's a start...

If you told me that'd be the 2013 rotation a month ago and the loss from the deal was virtually nothing (considering the Twins ALSO got May for Revere), I would have been pleased as punch.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Care to reconsider your evaluation or did Ryan do a major hose job on the Phillies?

Oh, Ryan hosed the Phillies, without a doubt.

And I was never that down on Revere's value. I thought he had a decent chance of maintaining his value through 2013, which is when I hoped he'd be traded (though I always said if an offer was there, take it and run like hell).

But I never valued him very high. There's a difference between how I value a guy and how one of 29 other general managers might value that guy. I don't believe I ever said the Twins couldn't get value for Revere, I simply said that extending him was ludicrous because his ceiling was relatively low (and that I think no-hit speedsters are a mistake in general).

I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

Jim H
12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
If Worley and May both are/become quality major league starters, this is a very good trade for the Twins. I do think it shows that many have undervalued Revere. We will see what happens, but Revere can hit and will I think, be a very good player for a good long time. The Twins gave up something to get something.

The Twins also must have a fair amount of confidence that Hicks is close to reaching his potential.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Exactly.....Is Morneau and Willingham next?!

Hard to say. I think they'll open the season with both, really.

But if there is still a market for outfielders, I'm sure Ryan will listen. After all, there are divisions outside the NL East that might need an outfielder.

Could Willingham get better players than Revere just did? I have a feeling Twins are quietly listening to what Morneau and Willingham could recieve. I honestly dont think this is the last trade we are going to make. I have a feeling one of those 2 will be traded for a pitcher.

I don't think Willingham or Morneau have that kind of value. I think both have better value at the trade deadline when a team (say Pitt) needs a power bat to stay in the race and the fans demand it.

That said, Ryan has pulled off two pretty nice trades already so Willingham for Bauer must be next.

If Willingham could get anything close for Bauer that would be amazing lol! Lets hope TR has some more trick up his sleeve.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 12:27 PM
I agree with Kab, this doesn't mean 2013 is punted at this point. They just filled one of their middle rotation spots with a guy who is making the minimum (rather then overpaying for a Dempster like guy). That frees up even more potential money for "better" pitchers then crappy ones on the free agent market.

There is a very good chance that Hicks has a better season then Revere anyways, and Mastro is a perfectly fine 4th OF, so it's not like we will be missing having Revere on the bench that much. At least Mastro has some value with his bat/pop (though not a lot)

johnnydakota
12-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Wow, amazing trade.

The TR haters should be eating a lot of Crow these days.

Also, Philly fans will looooooovvveeeeee Revere...haha.

chomp chomp chomp , yup a big crow-wich for me , terry did good...
now who plays center and do we look to upgrade shortstop , maybe look west to the rockie there?

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:28 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

Now the question is.....WHO?!

I'm hoping Marcum. Marcum, Worley, Diamond and Gibson in the front 4. Not great, but it's a start...

If you told me that'd be the 2013 rotation a month ago and the loss from the deal was virtually nothing (considering the Twins ALSO got May for Revere), I would have been pleased as punch.

If we could get both Marcum and McCarthy...and have...

1. Marcum
2. McCarthy
3. Diamond
4. Worley
5 Gibson

I would be pretty happy with that starting rotation!

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
It has been reported that our plan this whole time has been to sign one free agent pitcher, was it not? That makes me feel way better in that aspect as well.

Now the question is.....WHO?!

I'm hoping Marcum. Marcum, Worley, Diamond and Gibson in the front 4. Not great, but it's a start...

If you told me that'd be the 2013 rotation a month ago and the loss from the deal was virtually nothing (considering the Twins ALSO got May for Revere), I would have been pleased as punch.

Concur. However, is it more than 50% certain that Gibson breaks with the team in April in the rotation? I'd say it's still highly doubtful, especially if they decide on a specific inning limitation. I also am not holding my breath that they get Marcum unless they move Willingham or Morneau.

revdrev
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
Great trade pretting effin excited for the return we got. Everyone...go to church this weekend and pray that Worley is not going to have Tommy John eventually. Someone tried to tell me the other day CFs have no value this year...look what we just got for Revere! Grade Trade...very excited.....! ;)

Posted this elsewhere.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/No-Tommy-John-surgery-necessary-for-Phillies-Vance-Worley.html

ltwedt
12-06-2012, 12:29 PM
Great trade - suddenly I'm back on TR's band wagon! ;)

071063
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Do you think they will start with Hick is CF day 1? I don't believe they will. I think they will let him get his feet wet at AAA and use Mastro in CF, along with maybe Benson or Arcia. Then maybe mid-season or so, if Hicks has done well at AAA, bring him up. Thoughts?

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
If Worley and May both are/become quality major league starters, this is a very good trade for the Twins. I do think it shows that many have undervalued Revere. We will see what happens, but Revere can hit and will I think, be a very good player for a good long time. The Twins gave up something to get something.

The Twins also must have a fair amount of confidence that Hicks is close to reaching his potential.

Hicks style of play may be better served in the NL, but I still see no way he manages to get a .700 OPS year in and year out. Until he can even reach that modest number he is nothing more then a stop gap CF and a 4th OF.

greengoblinrulz
12-06-2012, 12:31 PM
without question, a solid solid deal that will ripple down the minors.
It is curious tho how Ryans disdain for FA affected this as I believe he really wanted to use FA but wont pay the market price for a pitcher.
Revere is an OK player (great speed/defense) but I was worried about his OBP as a fulltime leadoff hitter, so Im very happy to see him go. Truly think Mastro can do everything that Revere can....on a shortterm basis untill the Aaron Hicks era starts.
With the AAA rotation full, & May not dominating AA....that's where I see him starting the year with Meyer. Agree or not??
More happy with the upcoming season now knowing that its getting ready for 2014 than trying to compete this year with the Florimon types in the lineup. Makes you wonder when the trigger is pulled on Justin/ WIlly

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Do you think they will start with Hick is CF day 1? I don't believe they will. I think they will let him get his feet wet at AAA and use Mastro in CF, along with maybe Benson or Arcia. Then maybe mid-season or so, if Hicks has done well at AAA, bring him up. Thoughts?

I think it will be a true open competition coming to ST, with it being Hicks job to lose. If he has a nice spring, he is on the roster off the bat IMO.

luckylager
12-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Wooo - Freakin'-Hoooo!! Sweet deal, TR! Hope Hicks is ready for the big time.

joeboo_22
12-06-2012, 12:32 PM
I think Willingham can bring a good return now, but he could bring more at the deadline if he has a solid season. Morneau, and who knows with some of these trades and contracts being handed out, I see with much more upside trading at the deadline then now, unless someone really loves him.

As for the trade, its a great return, I'm not a TR fan, but he isn't too bad when it comes to trades, its more dumb signings and bad day to day (DL, call ups) that drive me nuts.

As for who plays in CF, I think some of it comes to spring training, don't know if they want to put Hicks out there right away, though I think it is prolly his to lose, see how Benson comes back from injury, he had a rough year injury wise. The one issue I have with him is I don't know if he can play CF with Parmelee and Willingham at the corners.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Do you think they will start with Hick is CF day 1? I don't believe they will. I think they will let him get his feet wet at AAA and use Mastro in CF, along with maybe Benson or Arcia. Then maybe mid-season or so, if Hicks has done well at AAA, bring him up. Thoughts?

This is what I'd like to see.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Concur. However, is it more than 50% certain that Gibson breaks with the team in April in the rotation? I'd say it's still highly doubtful, especially if they decide on a specific inning limitation. I also am not holding my breath that they get Marcum unless they move Willingham or Morneau.

No, I think Gibson's chance of being in the Opening Day rotation is very much in the air.

But now that the Twins have at least $25m to spend (based on current payroll and last year's number), they're going to have to go get somebody (or, more likely, multiple cheaper somebodies).

I think the chances of going after some middle infield help has risen dramatically in the past hour.

cmathewson
12-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Will Joe Benson be starting in center field on opening day? Whereas Hicks may be the centerfielder of the short-term future, I doubt the Twins believe he will be ready on opening day. More likely sometime next summer. As for Benson, everything possible went wrong last year including two serious injuries (hamate bone and knee). What effect that had on his dismal season is unknown, however, one has to assume it had a real effect. If 100% healthy in spring, he just could report to Fort Myers and 'win' the starting centerfield job. On the other hand, Mr. Ryan will probably scrounge around for someone to compete with Mastroianni for center/4th outfielder should neither of the close kids win the job.

But right this very minute, Hicks is ahead of Benson. Benson had a horrible year last year, getting demoted twice. I know some of that was due to the hamate bone and resulting surgery. But he started slow and never got going. Hicks got going and continued through the fall land Winter leagues. Hicks is my favorite to win the job out of spring training.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:34 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

I fully agree, he's made for the NL and that park and a classy organization. I wish him the best. I just don't like the supposed Twins fans on a Twins blog who still want to get one more kick at a guy- who's done nothing wrong- as he's going out the door.

JB_Iowa
12-06-2012, 12:35 PM
This is the kind of trade I've been waiting to see from Terry Ryan -- glad to see he still has the contacts, skill and guts to make it happen.

But I will miss Revere's grin.

Please let some of the call-ups and additions bring some excitement because right not the Twins look like a very boring team.

E. Andrew
12-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Do you think they will start with Hick is CF day 1? I don't believe they will. I think they will let him get his feet wet at AAA and use Mastro in CF, along with maybe Benson or Arcia. Then maybe mid-season or so, if Hicks has done well at AAA, bring him up. Thoughts?

This is what I'd like to see.

Agree that this probably is the smartest move.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:36 PM
Will Joe Benson be starting in center field on opening day? Whereas Hicks may be the centerfielder of the short-term future, I doubt the Twins believe he will be ready on opening day. More likely sometime next summer. As for Benson, everything possible went wrong last year including two serious injuries (hamate bone and knee). What effect that had on his dismal season is unknown, however, one has to assume it had a real effect. If 100% healthy in spring, he just could report to Fort Myers and 'win' the starting centerfield job. On the other hand, Mr. Ryan will probably scrounge around for someone to compete with Mastroianni for center/4th outfielder should neither of the close kids win the job.

But right this very minute, Hicks is ahead of Benson. Benson had a horrible year last year, getting demoted twice. I know some of that was due to the hamate bone and resulting surgery. But he started slow and never got going. Hicks got going and continued through the fall land Winter leagues. Hicks is my favorite to win the job out of spring training.

Do you think the Twins don't routinely promote the inferior guy, if in their mind it's a better business decision?

Oxtung
12-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Do you think they will start with Hick is CF day 1? I don't believe they will. I think they will let him get his feet wet at AAA and use Mastro in CF, along with maybe Benson or Arcia. Then maybe mid-season or so, if Hicks has done well at AAA, bring him up. Thoughts?

This is what I'd like to see.

Agreed. Hicks has zero PA's above AA. Let him get a few months at AAA then let's reevaluate. That also should prevent him from reaching super 2 status. I think the most interesting question is what happens with Benson?

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 12:37 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

I fully agree, he's made for the NL and that park and a classy organization. I wish him the best. I just don't like the supposed Twins fans on a Twins blog who still want to get one more kick at a guy- who's done nothing wrong- as he's going out the door.

Generally, I only kick the player, not the person. I like Revere. He's a blast to watch. He seems like a great guy who just wants to play baseball.

But as a player, I don't think he's very good. That doesn't mean I wish him ill or anything, I just don't see his skillset playing out over the longterm.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:38 PM
This is the kind of trade I've been waiting to see from Terry Ryan -- glad to see he still has the contacts, skill and guts to make it happen.

But I will miss Revere's grin.

Please let some of the call-ups and additions bring some excitement because right not the Twins look like a very boring team.

No pain, no gain. I'm planning on enjoying following the minor league teams a lot more next year.

E. Andrew
12-06-2012, 12:40 PM
I think Willingham can bring a good return now, but he could bring more at the deadline if he has a solid season. Morneau, and who knows with some of these trades and contracts being handed out, I see with much more upside trading at the deadline then now, unless someone really loves him.

From a financial perspective, I wouldn't want to trade Willingham at this point. He's got a great contract, sure, but that aside, a certain type of fan really likes Willingham. Most people posting here have at least a general understanding of the potential we're now 'nearing' with our minor leaguers, but the opposite type of fan thinks 'WTF kind of team are we fielding?' That type of fan likes Morneau and Willingham, which does matter when it comes down to $s and filled seats. At this price, why throw away a big part of our available power?

70charger
12-06-2012, 12:40 PM
A week ago, I don't know that Revere could have fetched either of them by himself. Timing is everything. Awesome.

Remember 2 weeks ago when so many were saying "Why hasn't Terry Ryan DONE anything yet? Derp." Ha.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 12:41 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

I fully agree, he's made for the NL and that park and a classy organization. I wish him the best. I just don't like the supposed Twins fans on a Twins blog who still want to get one more kick at a guy- who's done nothing wrong- as he's going out the door.

Generally, I only kick the player, not the person. I like Revere. He's a blast to watch. He seems like a great guy who just wants to play baseball.

But as a player, I don't think he's very good. That doesn't mean I wish him ill or anything, I just don't see his skillset playing out over the longterm.

Revere is going to lead the NL East in BIS/9 (Bright Infectious Smiles per 9 innings).

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:41 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

I fully agree, he's made for the NL and that park and a classy organization. I wish him the best. I just don't like the supposed Twins fans on a Twins blog who still want to get one more kick at a guy- who's done nothing wrong- as he's going out the door.

Generally, I only kick the player, not the person. I like Revere. He's a blast to watch. He seems like a great guy who just wants to play baseball.

But as a player, I don't think he's very good. That doesn't mean I wish him ill or anything, I just don't see his skillset playing out over the longterm.

A valid opinion, his numbers and arm illustrate his strengths and weaknesses. The Phillies, who in recent history have been a very successful franchise, must have looked past those numbers and come to a different definition of "good".

I wonder if anyone is tracking the Phillies fan response to the trade?

E. Andrew
12-06-2012, 12:42 PM
A week ago, I don't know that Revere could have fetched either of them by himself. Timing is everything. Awesome.

Possibly a stretch, but I love to agree, and love the trade.

jokin
12-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Concur. However, is it more than 50% certain that Gibson breaks with the team in April in the rotation? I'd say it's still highly doubtful, especially if they decide on a specific inning limitation. I also am not holding my breath that they get Marcum unless they move Willingham or Morneau.

No, I think Gibson's chance of being in the Opening Day rotation is very much in the air.

But now that the Twins have at least $25m to spend (based on current payroll and last year's number), they're going to have to go get somebody (or, more likely, multiple cheaper somebodies).

I think the chances of going after some middle infield help has risen dramatically in the past hour.

Boston and Baltimore have MI depth if the Twins are willing to pull the trigger again.

Boom Boom
12-06-2012, 12:46 PM
This is the kind of trade I've been waiting to see from Terry Ryan -- glad to see he still has the contacts, skill and guts to make it happen.

But I will miss Revere's grin.

Please let some of the call-ups and additions bring some excitement because right not the Twins look like a very boring team.

If you want exciting characters on the Twins team, you'll love Worley.

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
12-06-2012, 12:55 PM
I agree that timing had a lot to do with this - is it also possible that Philadelphia wanted Revere more than Span? Would they have offered Worley/May for Span a week ago?
Would the Nats have offered Meyer for Revere? I think the answer to both of those is no.
I wonder how much impact having Span go to a rival had on the return from Philadelphia. The need for a CF was there regardless, but it's possible there was more incentive to move with the Nationals getting the jump on them. I expect all three teams are happy with the players they acquired.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 12:55 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...


Or the "do the Phillies have a competent Front Office?" question can be put to rest....

Just because Barry Zito got 100 million several years ago doesn't mean that was his "value"

Actually I'm pretty sure that Zito getting 100 million means his value was 100 million at that time. This really can't be disputed. The value of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter if you wouldn't pay it or the Mariners wouldn't pay it. The value can only be established by what someone will pay.

The value side of the discussion is over. The market is clear... Now if this is a future projection discussion... That will last forever all the way into the future until Ben doesn't have a uniform anymore and I will never be confident enough with any player to participate in that discussion.

To Ben Revere... If you are reading this... Thank You... I appreciated your effort and ability every day... Even when you screwed up on pccasion. I believe you will have a nice career ahead of you if you keep playing balls out like you did here in Minnesota.

Go get em in Philly... I hate that team a lot less now.

kab21
12-06-2012, 12:56 PM
I wonder if anyone is tracking the Phillies fan response to the trade?

I think they would be laughing at how excited we are about a #4 starter and a prospect with some big mechanical issues to work out. Still it's a great trade for the Twins because Revere is replaceable. Likewise in philly both of these guys are replaceable.

i just remembered that a fantasy forum was calling him Vance, Vance Revolution.

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 01:02 PM
This is a good trade. First time I ac recall Ryan trading a good young player for a mlb player, let alone also getting a prospect. Maybe this is a new Ryan. I agree with others, this does not mean you have to punt on next year. Great trade, though the injury makes me nervous.

Wookiee of the Year
12-06-2012, 01:02 PM
Wow. I'm going to miss Revere, and was sad to see the announcement he was traded. But there's no way to be disappointed in this trade--TR brought back a haul.

We might struggle in 2013, but the Twin's future looks bright.

joeboo_22
12-06-2012, 01:03 PM
I think this trade is one that you won't be able to get a great view on the trade for a few years.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 01:04 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.

twinsnorth49
12-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Jackpot!! A bit stunned TR was able to get this for Revere but as someone pointed out in another thread, Revere has that visual flash that makes some people ignore what he really is, I think that's what played out here and what makes this such a steal for the Twins, definitely got the better value.

Getting excited people! Who's next? http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/653.gif

twinsnorth49
12-06-2012, 01:11 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.

You'll be fine once you see Worley get us out of the 2nd inning in his first start RB.

FrodaddyG
12-06-2012, 01:14 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.
If you liked Revere, there's this Hicks kid in the pipeline who does all the same stuff, plus a throwing arm, plus the ability to draw walks, plus some pop.

jokin
12-06-2012, 01:14 PM
I guess the "value of Ben Revere" question can be put to rest...


Or the "do the Phillies have a competent Front Office?" question can be put to rest....

Just because Barry Zito got 100 million several years ago doesn't mean that was his "value"

2006-2012 Team W-L Results

Twins 570-563 .503 winning %
Phillies 638-495 .563 winning %

Phillies had 5 straight Division Championships during this run
The Twins had 2.

The Phillies had 2 World Series appearances, 1 win
The Twins? Don't ask.

I'd take a little more of that Phillies level of "incompetence" around these parts.

jokin
12-06-2012, 01:18 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.

Like I said previously, no pain, no gain. On the bright side, I think you'll get a 2.5 month Maestro bandwagon to get onboard with, followed by Hicks. 2 exciting guys to rally around.

PopRiveter
12-06-2012, 01:19 PM
I'm a little conflicted too. As a fan, I like to cheer for the good guys and my team just traded away 2 of the best. Still, you have to balance the ship by offering value from your positions of strength to obtain help in your positions of weakness. Strategically, TR seems to be making great moves. Get ready to see how Darin Mastroianni does at leadoff. Might be fun.

jokin
12-06-2012, 01:20 PM
I wonder if anyone is tracking the Phillies fan response to the trade?

I think they would be laughing at how excited we are about a #4 starter and a prospect with some big mechanical issues to work out. Still it's a great trade for the Twins because Revere is replaceable. Likewise in philly both of these guys are replaceable.

i just remembered that a fantasy forum was calling him Vance, Vance Revolution.

I get that side of the trade. I was referring to their level of anticipation about making Revere their CF.

kryptik
12-06-2012, 01:20 PM
Sad to see Revere go obviously, great guy and I loved watching him patrol the outfield.

That being said I'm floored by the return and extremely happy with what TR was able to get for him.

TR is turning the page on 2013 but it was definitely the right choice to make. Its going to be exciting seeing the younger guys earn their stripes in the big leagues.

With Revere being moved you have to think Morneau and Willingham won't be on the roster post trade deadline next season.

If you had to trade one before the season started it would probably be Willingham, Morneau needs a chance to produce to bump his value up.

B Richard
12-06-2012, 01:23 PM
Absolutely thrilled with this trade. We have the depth to make this trade, plus honestly I never saw Revere as part of a long term solution. A great guy, but this is about as high as his value could be- good work Terry Ryan on pulling the trigger. We addressed an immediate and future need in one fell swoop, dealt from a strength.

I live with a bunch of Philly fans (both a blessing and a curse) and their reaction isn't ecstatic. They seemed to think May was due for a big year after last, the consensus being that a one-for-one trade w/ May or Worley would have been more appropriate. Definitely a general feeling of having overpayed

I just hope these guys can stay healthy and contribute

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 01:23 PM
KLAW likes the deal. And I still do not think they have to punt on 2013.....

greengoblinrulz
12-06-2012, 01:27 PM
ONLY thing to be afraid of this trade is that Worley just had bone chips removed this offseason & there are people who truly believe (is some info to back it) that TJ surgery chances increase after removeving said chips

Dave T
12-06-2012, 01:27 PM
There is no need to trade any more players now. That is, assuming you want fans in the stands this year. The Twins have some fine young arms in the pipeline, which is exciting to see. Now leave us some big bats so we can enjoy some wins!

As for the Revere trade, I think Ryan walked into something unexpected. Revere was the best young CF available. I think he was able to auction Revere off to the highest bidder.

PseudoSABR
12-06-2012, 01:32 PM
Hot Damn, my friends.

Jim Crikket
12-06-2012, 01:33 PM
As others have said, I'm also REALLY going to miss Revere's smile and just the approach he brought to playing the game. So many MLB players clearly have lost the pure joy they got from playing baseball by the time they make the Big Leagues. I never had that feeling with Revere and it was a breath of fresh air to see. I wish him nothing but success throughout the rest of his career and hope he never changes that approach. I'm hoping even Phillie fans will appreciate it.

That said, when it became apparent to Terry Ryan that Revere might possibly bring both a top 100 prospect AND a current MLB pitcher that slots in above Scott Diamond, he would have been a total fool not to make that kind of deal. Props to Terry Ryan and his crew for pulling this off.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 01:34 PM
ONLY thing to be afraid of this trade is that Worley just had bone chips removed this offseason & there are people who truly believe (is some info to back it) that TJ surgery chances increase after removeving said chips

TJ Surgery chances increase the minute pitchers throw the ball overhand.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 01:35 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.

You'll be fine once you see Worley get us out of the 2nd inning in his first start RB.



If you liked Revere, there's this Hicks kid in the pipeline who does all the same stuff, plus a throwing arm, plus the ability to draw walks, plus some pop.

I'll be alright... I've been looking at the Pitching Staff in the majors, AAA and AA and flat out concerned. I'm still concerned but the addition of Meyer... Worley and May is needed and I feel better today. In October the pitching staff was about as bad as I could ever imagine at the upper levels. December 6th... I have reason for hope... The rest is patience and I have that,

As for Hicks... I've been waiting for him... I like what I read and looking forward to eyeballing him. I've always said that if Hicks comes up and outplays Ben then good for us.

I also like Mastro... I hate trying to spell his name but I like Mastro... This could be a big opportunity for him to take advantage of... With so many players it just comes down to opportunity, Some never get it and some have a very short window. This could be a short window for Mastro and I'm happy for him.

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 01:37 PM
I thin Jim has it right, we will all miss watching Revere and his attitude, but it was too much to say no to.

jokin
12-06-2012, 01:38 PM
KLAW likes the deal. And I still do not think they have to punt on 2013.....

Hey Chris, get a Kluwe, Gardy certainly doesn't want them to punt in hopes of keeping his job, but given their likely horrible defense this year, likely regression of certain players, likely continued salary dump trade(s) and the unwillingness/inability to sign/acquire 2 high-yield SPs makes it all but certain that this year will be booted away.

mlbfan
12-06-2012, 01:39 PM
Congratulations, lets throw a party, we are now the Minnesota Royals. Great minor league teams, two major league players. Maybe we can trade Willingham and Maur also. Next winning season 2020 (if everything breaks right).

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 01:42 PM
I agree, if they do not use the money they have to sign 2 legit pitchers, that indicates they are punting. But that does not mean, imo, they should punt. They should sign Marcum and someone else.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Congratulations, lets throw a party, we are now the Minnesota Royals. Great minor league teams, two major league players. Maybe we can trade Willingham and Maur also. Next winning season 2020 (if everything breaks right).

The Twins just picked up a legitimate Major League pitcher AND a solid pitching prospect for a guy who may be outplayed by Aaron Hicks in the coming season.

S.
12-06-2012, 01:43 PM
As has been said many times already, Revere was certainly fun to watch but only a fool wouldn't be happy about this trade. Now I'd love to see us sign Marcum to a 3 year deal to have a solid, veteran arm in the rotation to go along with the young guys who will be coming up over the next 3 years.

A shortstop that doesn't make me weep would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Ultima Ratio
12-06-2012, 01:44 PM
So unless Morneau is moved, Parmelee is definitely slotting to start in RF now. I can accept that.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 01:45 PM
As has been said many times already, Revere was certainly fun to watch but only a fool wouldn't be happy about this trade. Now I'd love to see us sign Marcum to a 3 year deal to have a solid, veteran arm in the rotation to go along with the young guys who will be coming up over the next 3 years.

A shortstop that doesn't make me weep would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The Twins absolutely have the money to do both. It's just unfortunate that the middle infield class is so weak this offseason.

Wookiee of the Year
12-06-2012, 01:47 PM
I was with you on this one Riverbrian. I hate to lose Revere but it's no surprise to me the Twins got more for Revere than they did for Span

It's really strange... I can't describe it... I'm pumped about two decent arms coming to us... And floored at.the reality of the loss of my favorite Twin.
If you liked Revere, there's this Hicks kid in the pipeline who does all the same stuff, plus a throwing arm, plus the ability to draw walks, plus some pop.
Yeah, but how's his smile?

I'm with you, Riverbrian--sad to see my favorite Twin go, but impressed by the return he brought and know it looks likes the right move.

@_2244
12-06-2012, 01:49 PM
I'll stand by my prediction that if he has a strong season in a ballpark favorable to what he does best, the Phillies consider extension talks in the offseason.

And I'd still consider it a mistake but I think Revere will do better in the NL and that ballpark than he ever would in Target Field.

I fully agree, he's made for the NL and that park and a classy organization. I wish him the best. I just don't like the supposed Twins fans on a Twins blog who still want to get one more kick at a guy- who's done nothing wrong- as he's going out the door.
I would submit that a player like Revere is best-suited for a cavern like Target Field. Offensively, big outfield gaps make more doubles and triples possible for speedsters who don't hit (m)any taters. Power hitters are going to get their homers, but a big ballpark weeds out the cheap homers from guys that are not typically considered deep threats, which minimizes his power limitations. Defensively, the only negative to Revere playing in a big outfield is his lack of arm strength becomes a bit more problematic. The trade-off is all that real estate gives him a big advantage in terms of defensive range. The guy gets to a lot of balls most OFers couldn't dream of. In addition to being a solid outfielder, he makes some of the best OF catches you'll ever see. Having a lot of territory track down fly balls / line drives caters to one of his biggest strengths.

I really don't see how playing in a bandbox like Philly benefits a player with Revere's tools whatsoever. A slap-hitting speedster devoid of power, with zero arm strength but great range gets the most out of his abilities in a cavernous ballpark that maxes his assets and minimizes his liabilities.

jokin
12-06-2012, 01:49 PM
As has been said many times already, Revere was certainly fun to watch but only a fool wouldn't be happy about this trade. Now I'd love to see us sign Marcum to a 3 year deal to have a solid, veteran arm in the rotation to go along with the young guys who will be coming up over the next 3 years.

A shortstop that doesn't make me weep would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The Twins absolutely have the money to do both. It's just unfortunate that the middle infield class is so weak this offseason.

You mean FA MI class, right? Because there were/are certainly MI potentially available in trade. Right now, there are at least half a dozen AAA teams that have a better MI rotation than the Twins do, embarassing, and potentially the prime diaster point for 2013.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 01:52 PM
I would submit that a player like Revere is best-suited for a cavern like Target Field. Offensively, big outfield gaps make more doubles and triples possible for speedsters who don't hit (m)any taters. Power hitters are going to get their homers, but a big ballpark weeds out the cheap homers from guys that are not typically considered deep threats, which minimizes his power limitations. Defensively, the only negative to Revere playing in a big outfield is his lack of arm strength becomes a bit more problematic. The trade-off is all that real estate gives him a big advantage in terms of defensive range. The guy gets to a lot of balls most OFers couldn't dream of. In addition to being a solid outfielder, he makes some of the best OF catches you'll ever see. Having a lot of territory track down fly balls / line drives caters to one of his biggest strengths.

I really don't see how playing in a bandbox like Philly benefits a player with Revere's tools whatsoever. A slap-hitting speedster devoid of power, with zero arm strength but great range gets the most out of his abilities in a cavernous ballpark that maxes his assets and minimizes his liabilities.


Defensively, park size isn't going to matter much. Any MLB park is big enough to strain the range of any outfielder. Revere is going to shut down CF in Citizen's Bank Park.

Offensively, you have a point but Revere hits the ball on the ground A LOT. Park doesn't matter a lick at that point and I think facing inferior NL pitching will be more of an advantage than having a cavernous park in which to hit.

Plus, he may actually hit a homerun in Philly. I don't think he'd ever do that at TF.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 01:53 PM
You mean FA MI class, right? Because there were/are certainly MI potentially available in trade. Right now, there are at least half a dozen AAA teams that have a better MI rotation than the Twins do, embarassing, and potentially the prime diaster point for 2013.

Yeah, I meant free agent middle infielders.

S.
12-06-2012, 01:53 PM
The Twins absolutely have the money to do both. It's just unfortunate that the middle infield class is so weak this offseason.
Agreed on both fronts. If there were some better FA options I could definitely see us getting Marcum on a multi year deal, someone on a cheap one year deal (Liriano comes to mind), and a SS. Unfortunately, I envision them trotting out a middle infield of Carroll/Dozier/Florimon for a good chunk of the year, then potentially trying for a young SS at the deadline in a Willingham or Morneau trade if their value is up.

Though, TR has surprised me today. Maybe we'll be seeing a trade for a SS before the start of the year.

crapforks
12-06-2012, 01:55 PM
You mean FA MI class, right? Because there were/are certainly MI potentially available in trade. Right now, there are at least half a dozen AAA teams that have a better MI rotation than the Twins do, embarassing, and potentially the prime diaster point for 2013.
MI could be the disaster point, but with no clear CF, two penciled-in SP (out of 5) and no lineup presence out of the 1,2,7,8 and 9 spots (assuming one of Doumit and Plouffe hits, but not both), I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 01:56 PM
Interesting that we actually got more for Revere than we did for Span. I'd put May between Meyers and Gibson. Worley becomes the number 2 starter, for the time being, behind Scott Diamond.

For what it's worth, the James projection thinks Worley's ERA should be about a half run better than Diamond's.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.

johnnydakota
12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
does this mean joe mauer bats leadoff?

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Interesting that we actually got more for Revere than we did for Span. I'd put May between Meyers and Gibson. Worley becomes the number 2 starter, for the time being, behind Scott Diamond.

For what it's worth, the James projection thinks Worley's ERA should be about a half run better than Diamond's.

I assume that projection was for the NL, not AL.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 02:02 PM
does this mean joe mauer bats leadoff?

Barring any acquisitions, my guess is second with Carroll slotting in first (unless Hicks grabs that spot).

crapforks
12-06-2012, 02:02 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Why-Vance-Worley-for-Justin-Upton-might-make-more-sense.html

Speculation that those two (Worley-May) plus one piece (Brown or a catcher) was maybe getting them Justin Upton

johnnydakota
12-06-2012, 02:04 PM
I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.

see what hope does for ther fans? )

S.
12-06-2012, 02:05 PM
Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.
But...but...he's fast.

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:06 PM
does this mean joe mauer bats leadoff?

Barring any acquisitions, my guess is second with Carroll slotting in first (unless Hicks grabs that spot).

This is the right order slot for Mauer, but Gardy will never do it. Flori/Esco/Dozier/Carroll gets slotted 1 or 2 until Hicks gets the call-up.

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:07 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Why-Vance-Worley-for-Justin-Upton-might-make-more-sense.html

Speculation that those two (Worley-May) plus one piece (Brown or a catcher) was maybe getting them Justin Upton

But, but....."Revere is a nice-guy, worthless, low-ceiling nobody"....

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:12 PM
I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.

Still one more kick in the rear?

TopGunn#22
12-06-2012, 02:12 PM
This is a great trade. And it will necessitate the need to accelerate the Twins career of Aaron Hicks. We now have Diamond and Worely in the rotation. Signing Marcum and Myers (just using them as an example) gives us for competent starting pitchers. We had ONE last year and he wasn't in the rotation to begin the season. We scored 50 more runs than the Reds last year, even more runs than the Rays. What sets them apart from us??? PITCHING! T.R. is starting to git 'er done.

Jim Crikket
12-06-2012, 02:15 PM
After glancing through a few Phillies fan-sites, I'm struck by the reactions, as compared with most of those here.

Phillies fans are seeing the addition of a young, team-controlled CF with a lot of upside. Twins fans like Revere, but I think it's safe to say most of us doubt how much upside he has.

Twins fans are pumped about getting a top 100 pitching prospect in May. Phillies fans seem to consider May a "former top prospect" who lost that standing with a bad season in 2012.

Twins fans see Worley as immediately becoming the current #1 SP in the Twins rotation. Phillies fans frown a bit about losing a "solid" starting pitcher, but feel that's the price you pay and aren't too concerned because there appear to be a number of "back of the rotation" arms available on the FA market.

Just goes to show how perspectives affect things. The Twins have enough OF depth in the system that the idea of giving up pitching to get an OF is totally foreign. The Phillies have a rotation with multiple CY winners and consider losing Worely an inconvenient necessity, at worst.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 02:15 PM
I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.

Still one more kick in the rear?

That was aimed at casual fans, not Revere. I've seen dozens of comments today by casual fans lamenting the loss of a player that they just wanted to pick up and hug.

Ben's a happy guy. Good for him. But, like strange women lyin' in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government, smile factor is no basis for running a baseball team.

CDog
12-06-2012, 02:16 PM
does this mean joe mauer bats leadoff?

Barring any acquisitions, my guess is second with Carroll slotting in first (unless Hicks grabs that spot).

How sure are we that Carroll is even going to start? Obviously utility guys get a fair amount of time, and maybe even especially so with this year's roster of young, unproven starters in the infield...but I find it a little hard to imagine them going with a leadoff guy who isn't expected to be in the linuep most every day. I'm really quite curious to see how the batting order plays out.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 02:17 PM
After glancing through a few Phillies fan-sites, I'm struck by the reactions, as compared with most of those here.

Phillies fans are seeing the addition of a young, team-controlled CF with a lot of upside. Twins fans like Revere, but I think it's safe to say most of us doubt how much upside he has.

Twins fans are pumped about getting a top 100 pitching prospect in May. Phillies fans seem to consider May a "former top prospect" who lost that standing with a bad season in 2012.

Twins fans see Worley as immediately becoming the current #1 SP in the Twins rotation. Phillies fans frown a bit about losing a "solid" starting pitcher, but feel that's the price you pay and aren't too concerned because there appear to be a number of "back of the rotation" arms available on the FA market.

Just goes to show how perspectives affect things. The Twins have enough OF depth in the system that the idea of giving up pitching to get an OF is totally foreign. The Phillies have a rotation with multiple CY winners and consider losing Worely an inconvenient necessity, at worst.

Philly fans are widely regarded as the worst/dumbest/drunkest/*******ish in all of sports. So I wouldn't read to much into it.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
I think 13 is shaping up to be a rough year. And a season I will spend much more time watching than last.

Funny how it works that way, isn't it? The true fans are more excited than ever while casual fans are moping that we "lost" Smiley McGee.

Exactly as a true fan you have to be excited about this. I can get why casual fans are a little upset. But this trade needed to happen for the Twins whether they like it or not.

Sanibelchuck
12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
Was out to Hammond Sradium this morning and Joe Benson is in Fort Myers. He has been working out in the mornings on the back practice fields.

joeboo_22
12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
CDog.... the Twins have yet to trade their manager, so I have a very good suspicion Carroll will start. Wouldn't be surprised if Mastronni (sp) is 1 and Carroll is 2, just how Gardy thinks things through sometimes.

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 02:18 PM
Brock, I think I like you even more now....thanks for the quote and smile.

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 02:24 PM
Interesting that we actually got more for Revere than we did for Span. I'd put May between Meyers and Gibson. Worley becomes the number 2 starter, for the time being, behind Scott Diamond.

For what it's worth, the James projection thinks Worley's ERA should be about a half run better than Diamond's.

I assume that projection was for the NL, not AL.

Yes. He'll lose some K's and accumulate some ER's with the move to the AL. That being said, this trade instantly looks worse if you assume Worley is out-pitched by Diamond in 2013. If he's healthy, I think Worley is the better pitcher, which is part of the reason I like the trade.

Sanibelchuck
12-06-2012, 02:25 PM
Jake Mauer was named manager of the Cedar Rapids Kernals (Low A). Sounds like a demotion to me since he was manager of the High A Fort Myers Miracle for the past 3 years.

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:27 PM
CDog.... the Twins have yet to trade their manager, so I have a very good suspicion Carroll will start. Wouldn't be surprised if Mastronni (sp) is 1 and Carroll is 2, just how Gardy thinks things through sometimes.

What's the line in Vegas on this outcome? Book it!

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 02:27 PM
Yes. He'll lose some K's and accumulate some ER's with the move to the AL. That being said, this trade instantly looks worse if you assume Worley is out-pitched by Diamond in 2013. If he's healthy, I think Worley is the better pitcher, which is part of the reason like the trade.

I'd put Diamond and Worley pretty close to one another in the AL on the same team with the slight nod going to Worley. What I find interesting is Worley's HR/9 rate in Philly (0.8 in 2012, 0.7 in 2011 & 2010). Will he give up a homerun in Target Field? That bodes well if the Twins can get a decent infield defense behind him (not a great GB rate but not bad, either).

dwintheiser
12-06-2012, 02:30 PM
In general terms, I like the trade myself, but I'm noticing a couple of things not being mentioned:

- People are putting the trade in terms of Revere's value, but I think the trade from the Phillies' side has more to do with them having went from 102 wins in 2011 to .500 last year. Their front office likely thinks they're still a prime team, and giving up good pieces that won't get them to their goal next year is OK if you get a piece that will. Revere isn't a star, but if he does what the Phillies expect, which is get on base and play great CF defense, then he'll help them work back up in the standings. (I guess the 'right place at the right time' folks may be making this point, but it seemed pretty oblique compared to the 'oh, look how valuable Revere really was' crowd.)

- I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

- I also think that if people really think Hicks's upside is rookie-year Torii Hunter, then there's no reason to start him in center in 2013 no matter how good his spring happens to be -- to justify starting his free agent clock early and possibly burning an entire year of eligibility via super-two status, he's got to be ROY-caliber material.

I'm finding the 'conspiracy theory' of having a number of Twins future performers starting at AAA this year, where they'll get to work with Paul Molitor as a roving consultant, prior to Gardy being replaced by Molitor for the start of the 2014 season to be more and more credible.

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 02:31 PM
CDog.... the Twins have yet to trade their manager, so I have a very good suspicion Carroll will start. Wouldn't be surprised if Mastronni (sp) is 1 and Carroll is 2, just how Gardy thinks things through sometimes.

When a guy who wasn't a star in his prime is 39 and plays a position that's hard on guys half his age, it may be less a less a question of a quirky manager wanting him to be an everyday player and more a question of him being physically able to handle it. Either way, they'll probably pick up a veteran glove who can't hit.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
12-06-2012, 02:38 PM
I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED!! TR is a GOD!!!

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:39 PM
In general terms, I like the trade myself, but I'm noticing a couple of things not being mentioned:

- People are putting the trade in terms of Revere's value, but I think the trade from the Phillies' side has more to do with them having went from 102 wins in 2011 to .500 last year. Their front office likely thinks they're still a prime team, and giving up good pieces that won't get them to their goal next year is OK if you get a piece that will. Revere isn't a star, but if he does what the Phillies expect, which is get on base and play great CF defense, then he'll help them work back up in the standings. (I guess the 'right place at the right time' folks may be making this point, but it seemed pretty oblique compared to the 'oh, look how valuable Revere really was' crowd.)

- I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

- I also think that if people really think Hicks's upside is rookie-year Torii Hunter, then there's no reason to start him in center in 2013 no matter how good his spring happens to be -- to justify starting his free agent clock early and possibly burning an entire year of eligibility via super-two status, he's got to be ROY-caliber material.

I'm finding the 'conspiracy theory' of having a number of Twins future performers starting at AAA this year, where they'll get to work with Paul Molitor as a roving consultant, prior to Gardy being replaced by Molitor for the start of the 2014 season to be more and more credible.

Great summation, except Gardy could very well be replaced during the 2013 run if the start is as abysmal as the two previous seasons.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 02:40 PM
does this mean joe mauer bats leadoff?

Barring any acquisitions, my guess is second with Carroll slotting in first (unless Hicks grabs that spot).

How sure are we that Carroll is even going to start? Obviously utility guys get a fair amount of time, and maybe even especially so with this year's roster of young, unproven starters in the infield...but I find it a little hard to imagine them going with a leadoff guy who isn't expected to be in the linuep most every day. I'm really quite curious to see how the batting order plays out.

Jeez Dog... I'm quite curious to see how the rest of the off season plays out first.

jokin
12-06-2012, 02:41 PM
Jake Mauer was named manager of the Cedar Rapids Kernals (Low A). Sounds like a demotion to me since he was manager of the High A Fort Myers Miracle for the past 3 years.

Is that supposed to be an indicative of some change regarding Joe Mauer's status as a Twin?

snepp
12-06-2012, 02:42 PM
Looks like the Twins made out alright.

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 02:45 PM
The Hicks love is getting a little out of hand. He had a good, not great, year in double A. That means time at triple A, and the departure of Revere and Span should have exactly zero impact on that if the Twins are smart.

USAFChief
12-06-2012, 02:45 PM
Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.

CDog
12-06-2012, 02:49 PM
Jeez Dog... I'm quite curious to see how the rest of the off season plays out first.

Me too! But future playing out is likely only going to lead to more questions!

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 02:52 PM
Jeez Dog... I'm quite curious to see how the rest of the off season plays out first.

Me too! But future playing out is likely only going to lead to more questions!


With every tick of the clock!

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 02:57 PM
- I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.



The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries. Heading into this year Philly has plenty of pitching, but a ton of holes on offense. The Twins have/had a ton of holes pitching wise and quite a bit of CF/O depth.

This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+

NoCryingInBaseball
12-06-2012, 02:58 PM
Haven't weighed in yet, just gotta say...great Trade!

crapforks
12-06-2012, 03:00 PM
Doesn't this remind anyone of a Twins trade, but backwards?

ChiTownTwinsFan
12-06-2012, 03:02 PM
I'm suddenly excited for Spring Training.

Brock Beauchamp
12-06-2012, 03:04 PM
doesn't this remind anyone of a bill smith trade, but backwards?

fify.

iastfan112
12-06-2012, 03:04 PM
Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.

Good take. No way Mays makes top 100's, my guess is he's in the 150-200 range. Sickels gut reactions was to give him a B- grade, that'd put him in the 9th-12th range for the Twins.

jokin
12-06-2012, 03:05 PM
- I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.



The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries. Heading into this year Philly has plenty of pitching, but a ton of holes on offense. The Twins have/had a ton of holes pitching wise and quite a bit of CF/O depth.

This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+



'14 yes. '13 is still up in the air regarding the Twins. As of today, December 6th, there are now more holes/???s in the roster make-up than last year.

dwintheiser
12-06-2012, 03:08 PM
The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries.

If you say so, man, but you got me interested if I'd looked at the numbers wrong:

Phillies 2011:
runs scored = 713
runs allowed = 529

Phillies 2012:
runs scored = 684
runs allowed = 680

Looks like a breakdown on defense to me. And if the problem on defense was injuries to starting pitchers, well *we just traded for the guy who replaced those injured starters*. That doesn't fill me with confidence.


This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+

I don't see how this trade makes the Twins any better in 2013, if you assume Hicks isn't going to play because he's not ready. If Hicks is ready, then it's addition by subtraction, but that there's an argument rather than widespread consensus that this is his year (as there was when the Twins dealt Pierzynski) suggests to me that the 'Twins are better next year with this trade' is arguable. Add in the Span trade, and the Twins are clearly not better on offense than they were last year, and offense was about the only thing they did well -- in spots. I won't argue with you about 2014+, because I agree that long-term, restocking the farm system with pitching is a good thing and should, with luck, pay off.

I do know the trades have had one concrete impact already -- one season ticket holder I know is not renewing her tickets for next year. So you'll probably have an easier time scoring good seats to watch the 2013 Twins, better or worse.

Jim Crikket
12-06-2012, 03:12 PM
- I think the idea that this trade helps the Twins be competitive in 2013 is pretty silly - after all, if the Phillies thought the players they gave up would help them win more in 2013, they wouldn't have traded them, right? After all, the big failure in Philly wasn't on offense, but in defense and pitching -- they allowed about a run per game more in 2012 than they did in 2011. Revere will help with that, but not by a full run per game.

- I also think that if people really think Hicks's upside is rookie-year Torii Hunter, then there's no reason to start him in center in 2013 no matter how good his spring happens to be -- to justify starting his free agent clock early and possibly burning an entire year of eligibility via super-two status, he's got to be ROY-caliber material.


I'd probably take issue with these two points to some degree.

First, the Twins and Phillies are in vastly different places. The Phils were a .500 team who believe they should be much better than that. Just because they see Worley as expendable doesn't mean he can't be a considerable help to the Twins, who lost a bazillion games the past 2 seasons and would probably be pretty satisfied getting back to .500. I don't think it's at all silly for the Twins and their fans to think a healthy Worley could help raise them to that level of competitiveness. Nobody is saying he's ALL the Twins need to be competitive, but he can and should "help".

I also think the Twins should be at the point where worrying about when they start a player's service time clock just isn't a big factor. I'm not sure Hicks will be ready to play Big League baseball. If he's not, he should go to Rochester. But if an honest evaluation determines that he either IS ready or will benefit more by playing every day in Minn than in Rochester, that's what he should do... regardless of what it means for his service time. By 2018 or 2019 or whenever he becomes eligible for free agency, Buxton or Kepler or someone else will probably be ready to replace him (or already have done so). If not and if the Twins feel he's worth keeping along the way, they should have signed him to a nice extension. This should no longer be a team scrimping nickels by playing games with service time.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 03:12 PM
Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.

Good take. No way Mays makes top 100's, my guess is he's in the 150-200 range. Sickels gut reactions was to give him a B- grade, that'd put him in the 9th-12th range for the Twins.

MAY is already #58 in scouting book and that is updated throughout the year.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-06-2012, 03:18 PM
The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries.

If you say so, man, but you got me interested if I'd looked at the numbers wrong:

Phillies 2011:
runs scored = 713
runs allowed = 529

Phillies 2012:
runs scored = 684
runs allowed = 680

Looks like a breakdown on defense to me. And if the problem on defense was injuries to starting pitchers, well *we just traded for the guy who replaced those injured starters*. That doesn't fill me with confidence.


This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+

I don't see how this trade makes the Twins any better in 2013, if you assume Hicks isn't going to play because he's not ready. If Hicks is ready, then it's addition by subtraction, but that there's an argument rather than widespread consensus that this is his year (as there was when the Twins dealt Pierzynski) suggests to me that the 'Twins are better next year with this trade' is arguable. Add in the Span trade, and the Twins are clearly not better on offense than they were last year, and offense was about the only thing they did well -- in spots. I won't argue with you about 2014+, because I agree that long-term, restocking the farm system with pitching is a good thing and should, with luck, pay off.

I do know the trades have had one concrete impact already -- one season ticket holder I know is not renewing her tickets for next year. So you'll probably have an easier time scoring good seats to watch the 2013 Twins, better or worse.
Have you seen what the Phillies current offense is/was? They traded away one of their above average hitters in Pence last season. Other then that they had exactly two guys that had a OPS+ higher then 100. Their best hitter Ruiz is sure to regress back to earth this year as well. The Phillies needed offense. They still have Hamels+Halladay+Lee. Their SP is fine.

Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 03:25 PM
Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

Jim Crikket
12-06-2012, 03:28 PM
[QUOTE=dwintheiser;68491]Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.

Actually, I'd say that any fan who would drop season tickets because the Twins traded Revere really hadn't been paying enough attention to this point. There have been, and remain, a fair sized list of really legitimate reasons to drop your season tickets for 2013, but this trade shouldn't be anywhere on that list.

dwintheiser
12-06-2012, 03:30 PM
First, the Twins and Phillies are in vastly different places. The Phils were a .500 team who believe they should be much better than that. Just because they see Worley as expendable doesn't mean he can't be a considerable help to the Twins, who lost a bazillion games the past 2 seasons and would probably be pretty satisfied getting back to .500.

Absolutely agree -- the Phillies won over 100 games in 2011 and still have most of those players, so I'm sure they think they're still competitive. On the other hand, it's hard to look at their starting lineup and not see that they're on the clock -- Pence and Mayberry were the only semi-regulars under 30, and Pence turns 30 next year. If they don't pull the trigger real soon, they probably lose their opportunity for another championship before the Halladay/Howard/Rollins era ends. So definitely the Twins and Phillies could value both Worley and Revere differently based on where they're at.


I also think the Twins should be at the point where worrying about when they start a player's service time clock just isn't a big factor. I'm not sure Hicks will be ready to play Big League baseball. If he's not, he should go to Rochester. But if an honest evaluation determines that he either IS ready or will benefit more by playing every day in Minn than in Rochester, that's what he should do... regardless of what it means for his service time.

The Twins should already know if Hicks is ready for 2013 -- three weeks in spring shouldn't change that evaluation. But if you haven't noticed, the era of 'we're not going to worry about payroll' ended a couple of months after Target Field opened. In that sense, it would be dumb for the Twins to hurry Hicks and get only three good seasons out of five when they could season him and get four good seasons out of six. On the other hand, five good seasons out of five is better than four good seasons out of six, so if the decision has already been made (and you could argue that trading two CFs in a week is a pretty strong indication of a decision), then go for it.

jokin
12-06-2012, 03:30 PM
Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

Reading this post, I'm not clear how adding just Vance Worley/subtracting your lead-off batting CFer w/ no obvous replacement- and- the premeire defensive RF- makes this team better. One additional mid-back-rotation starter stabilizes and balances the team but one day a week

DAM DC Twins Fans
12-06-2012, 03:36 PM
A dissenting voice--dont like this trade...

Worley is a decent pitcher--maybe a number 3--will be number 2 on Twins--but wont be enough to get us to 500. The other pitcher (May) had an ERA approaching 5 in AA ball. No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect...bottom line we didnt get enough for Revere.

We now have holes in CF and middle IF--yes maybe Hicks or Benson can fill CF hole, maybe not. With Willingham, Doumit, and/or Parmalee in OF, CF is going to need to be a track star to get all the balls...our pitchers are gonna give up runs. with this OF.

2014 and forward may work IF Hicks does the job...

PseudoSABR
12-06-2012, 03:37 PM
The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

PseudoSABR
12-06-2012, 03:38 PM
No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospectCan't argue with that logic.

jokin
12-06-2012, 03:41 PM
The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 03:42 PM
A dissenting voice--dont like this trade...

Worley is a decent pitcher--maybe a number 3--will be number 2 on Twins--but wont be enough to get us to 500. The other pitcher (May) had an ERA approaching 5 in AA ball. No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect...bottom line we didnt get enough for Revere.


They lost almost 200 games the past two seasons and play in the same division as a defending AL champ whose core players are all in their prime. I could care less about the Twins making it to .500 in 2013, other than how it affects intangibles like signing free agents who want to play for a winner. And give the Twins' inability or reluctance to sign big ticket free agents, I'm not losing any sleep over that.

PseudoSABR
12-06-2012, 03:46 PM
The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.Well if we are factoring the Span trade, we'll have to factor in the remaining moves too, before we can make a determination about our competitiveness in 2013.

In short, trading Revere for Worley+ makes the Twins better in 2013, and that seemed to be the current argument.

mike wants wins
12-06-2012, 03:47 PM
Number three pitchers are now just "decent"? And the Twins only surplus, besides money, is outfielders. How would people that do jot like this trade suggest the Twins get better?

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 03:53 PM
What a steal!!!!!!!!

LaBombo
12-06-2012, 03:55 PM
The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

And when he pitches, Worley, like any starter, has about as much power to affect the outcome of the game as the other 9 guys combined. Revere was a fine ballplayer, but any organization that considers the loss of a .330-ish OBP from the top of a lineup "crushing" isn't going anywhere anyway. Given that the Twins entered the offseason with a 2013 rotation with only one certain member, and one with only one year in the majors to boot, it seems to me like they've had their doubts about contending in 2013 before the winter meetings even started.

A quick and dirty WAR comparison says Revere/Deduno = Mastro/Worley in 2012, with Mastro playing part time and Worley missing a quarter of the season. I think they have a good chance to equal or exceed what Revere and Deduno might have done/ will do for the Twins in 2013.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 04:08 PM
My excitement is palpable.

Literally. I think I just crapped myself.

I am not going to go through the comments. I will just second this and move on!

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 04:09 PM
Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

Reading this post, I'm not clear how adding just Vance Worley/subtracting your lead-off batting CFer w/ no obvous replacement- and- the premeire defensive RF- makes this team better. One additional mid-back-rotation starter stabilizes and balances the team but one day a week

Like I said... it would be tough for me to explain.

Maybe this way... Let's say the Twins went out and were just given... Tulowitski, Cano, Longoria and Hamilton. Free pick ups for the Twins...

It would be easy to say that the Twins would be an improved team. No doubt... Or would they... The Twins are out of balance. Those bats would be explosive but the Pitching just trumps it. We may have increased talent but have little to show for it.

On the other side... If the Twins just simply added some arms that can keep the huge numbers off the board. Now you got a ball game and you can start to see what kind of team you have. Even if you lose a couple of players on the offensive side. A pitching staff can give you an opportunity. It's better balance in my opinion.

Like I said... It's hard to explain and I'm sure that some dandruff is falling from the head scratching.

How bout this way... I know Worley is just one guy... There is more work to be done on the mound but each improvement in the pitching staff is an improvement overall because the Pitching was so far down and you really can't improve until the pitching catches up and it has a lot of catching up to do... Losing offense will not hurt at all because it was going to hurt anyway until the pitching improves.

You gotta balance things out to find out what you have on either side.

Just theories of mine. I wish I could express this one better.

Kwak
12-06-2012, 04:10 PM
I think you posters are missing the major result of the trade: People are excited! They care! Fans are now believing that the Twins are moving toward building a consistent winner--and improving the team for 2013. The off-season isn't over--there will be a free agent pitcher signed who will be an improvement. Right now it's back-and-forth between player-agents and Twins/other teams. Face it they aren't calling the Twins up looking for an offer hoping to get one from the Twins--they are sort of a "last resort" option right now.
Also consider, there are probably three teams that have already pencilled Josh Hamilton in their lineup--at least two of them are wrong! There will be further trade opportunities after the big names sign. Worrying about service time--baloney! The Twins have stated--and demonstrated that they will pay to retain top players. They are well aware that there is still an abundant supply of OF prospects--these guys have to be promoted in order for the younger to also advance--and there is a need put put some sizzle in the lineup! A new arrival--a newly promoted "hot-shot" creates excitement. Promote Hicks, see what he can do--and if he fails, trade him/demote him, and say "Next!". It's past time to be penny wise and pound foolish about constipating the minor leagues. The Twins need to put an exciting product on the field and attract top talent. If every 1st rounder has to spend 5-6 years in the minors, pretty soon no top player will sign and the Twins will have to "pass" on top amateurs in order to find someone who would actually sign with the Twins. UGH!

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 04:11 PM
May will improve in AA this year and hopefully move to AAA at some point this season.

Anyway, Verducci loves it for the Twins. Kevin Millar just started jabbering incoherently about Revere, including that he has a "great arm."

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 04:26 PM
May will improve in AA this year and hopefully move to AAA at some point this season.

Anyway, Verducci loves it for the Twins. Kevin Millar just started jabbering incoherently about Revere, including that he has a "great arm."

haha wow.....Great arm? Yeah and Kevin Millar was fast....haha

Does anybody else ESPN does not report on anything but who they Red Sox or Yanks might go after...like this trade made no news! ESPN's "BREAKING NEWS" - "Yanks offer Youk 1 year 12 million dollar contract"..end of baseball news....god I hate most of ESPN.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 04:27 PM
I somehow now have the MLB network and have enjoyed the winter meetings coverage.

luke829
12-06-2012, 04:32 PM
I really don't have anything new to contribute, so I'll just go with the flow by agreeing 100%, grat trade.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 04:33 PM
Who would have thought that we would be considering who the Twins should sign as a FA fill-in OF this offseason???

Riverbrian
12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Who would have thought that we would be considering who the Twins should sign as a FA fill-in OF this offseason???

I'm ready for someone to provide a list because I don't feel like researching it myself. Would love to do some imaginary shopping.

TwinsFanInPhilly
12-06-2012, 04:39 PM
In October, Sickels came out with his preliminary top 50 Pitching prospects. Meyers was 28 and May was 32. Can't imagine that much has changed since mid Oct? Looks like a top 100 (or close to it) guy to me.

striker_86
12-06-2012, 04:45 PM
Fantastic trade, I love it. Keep adding those arms until we have too many

Alex
12-06-2012, 04:46 PM
Darin Masroianni is probably the happiest person on the earth about the Twins offseason. I don't see how he doesn't start in CF this year. They may need a #4 OF to back him up because I can't believe they'd call up Hicks to sit. I wonder if a fourth OF could be part of a Morneau trade.

I don't think we need to worry about the top of the lineup. Carrol has a better OBP than either and Revereo or Span, while Mastro has good plate discipline and is a more interesting hitter than Revere.

The Greatest Poster Alive
12-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Good trade. I've been a fan of Worley for some time now, had him on my fantasy team last season to help out in the K department.

The prospect in addition sounds pretty good as well.

I just hope the Twins have a plan to keep Worley on this roster long-term, because he has to be entering his 3rd year of his service clock at this point.

It's a step in the right direction improving pitching. And the Twins have in 2 consecutive deals sold High in a seller's market. The Bill Smith Era is over.

FrodaddyG
12-06-2012, 04:54 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Why-Vance-Worley-for-Justin-Upton-might-make-more-sense.html

Speculation that those two (Worley-May) plus one piece (Brown or a catcher) was maybe getting them Justin Upton

But, but....."Revere is a nice-guy, worthless, low-ceiling nobody"....
It was speculated on a blog, it must have been close to actually happening!!!

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Two words:

Grady Sizemore.

FrodaddyG
12-06-2012, 05:01 PM
CF is going to need to be a track star to get all the balls...our pitchers are gonna give up runs. with this OF.
A bold prediction that a pitching staff will allow runs. And to the outfield even!!!

By most every account I've ever read, Hicks could be every bit the defensive CF that Revere is. He may not have the raw speed, but he's close, and Revere had plenty of, to put it kindly, "questionable" reads off the bat which he could recover from to make highlight plays with his wheels. Those are plays that Hicks, who is said to have excellent reads off the bat, also makes with ease.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 05:01 PM
Never mind. Sizemore is having surgery yet again.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 05:03 PM
I think the Twins must be rolling with either Mastro or Hicks because there is no CF out there that they could possibly sign.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 05:08 PM
In October, Sickels came out with his preliminary top 50 Pitching prospects. Meyers was 28 and May was 32. Can't imagine that much has changed since mid Oct? Looks like a top 100 (or close to it) guy to me.

Thanks for that! I sure hope he would drop out of the Top 100.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-06-2012, 05:08 PM
Never mind. Sizemore is having surgery yet again.

Haha i was just about to let you know that. Sizemore's career seems to be over. Sad....He was a hell of a ballplayer when healthy.

Shane Wahl
12-06-2012, 05:23 PM
TR just said that Nick Blackburn should "bounce back" this year.

So there's that.

Jerr
12-06-2012, 05:32 PM
Twins pr firm can rerun the "get to know the Twins" this coming season:o
I like the trade, but will miss Revere's enthusiasm and this team needs someone with "spunk". Alot of quiet non descript guys on this roster.

ashburyjohn
12-06-2012, 05:36 PM
I think the Twins must be rolling with either Mastro or Hicks because there is no CF out there that they could possibly sign.

They can not possibly believe Mastro can be a full-timer, even in a transitional season, can they?

twinsnorth49
12-06-2012, 05:49 PM
I think the Twins must be rolling with either Mastro or Hicks because there is no CF out there that they could possibly sign.

They can not possibly believe Mastro can be a full-timer, even in a transitional season, can they?

I don't believe they do, indications are that at best he's some sort of stop-gap for Hicks, Benson or Arcia until May or June.

diehardtwinsfan
12-06-2012, 06:14 PM
As has been said many times already, Revere was certainly fun to watch but only a fool wouldn't be happy about this trade. Now I'd love to see us sign Marcum to a 3 year deal to have a solid, veteran arm in the rotation to go along with the young guys who will be coming up over the next 3 years.

A shortstop that doesn't make me weep would be nice too, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.



The Twins absolutely have the money to do both. It's just unfortunate that the middle infield class is so weak this offseason.

Which is why I still think they should go all out for Anibel Sanchez... Even if both of these guys turn out to be good, there's 5 spots and not much else in the pipeline to fill them with.