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AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 11:02 AM
With the Rangers believed to be (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/zack-greinke-rumors-wednesday.html) very much involved in the Zack Greinke (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greinza01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) sweepstakes, Texas is a candidate to add a big-name starter this week, in which case the team may look to trade one of its in-house options. As such, rival teams are calling to inquire about the availability of left-hander Derek Holland (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hollade01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com), according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (via Twitter (https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/276364790513938432)).
The Brewers, Twins, and Royals are among the clubs that have been in touch with the Rangers about Holland, says Morosi.

What do you guys think it would take to get Derek Holland?

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 11:08 AM
Revere and Morneau would both potentially be fits with Texas, I would think. It just depends on how the Rangers view those guys and what kind of supplemental package of players/money would have to be included.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 11:13 AM
I think your right Jim, Morneau and Revere should get it done.

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 11:15 AM
Hey, the Rangers need a catcher! I wonder...

nah... I won't go there again. :)

SgtSchmidt11
12-05-2012, 11:17 AM
I would think the Twins could get a couple of low level prospects as well, or at least one if Morneau and Revere were dealt for Holland. I would love the Twins to pull the trigger on this trade.

beckmt
12-05-2012, 11:18 AM
You are valueing the trade as if Holland is on a long term contract. It would have to be a three to four year deal to make me interested in this price. His numbers have not been that good for his career, looks to me like a #3 starter. Revere and Morneau would be a huge price for a number 3 starter.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 11:18 AM
I have posted this several times since the offseason, Derek Holland is my absolute offseason grand slam acquisition!!!!
He is gonna be a Cy Young candidate over the remainder of his career, especially if he gets out of Texas. He doesnt pitch well at home (5.34ERA career ) but very well on road (4.08.....3.50era last 2 yrs on road)
Texas is currently without a C.....could the arbitration offer to Butera give MN the ability to send Doumit (among others) to TEX (had GREAT success with Napoli....very Doumit like)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Holland is signed cheaply for the next five years and the Rangers are going to market him as an ace which he's not. I have a hard time believing they wont ask for more than Revere and one year of Morneau even if the Twins do eat half his salary.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 11:20 AM
You are valueing the trade as if Holland is on a long term contract. It would have to be a three to four year deal to make me interested in this price. His numbers have not been that good for his career, looks to me like a #3 starter. Revere and Morneau would be a huge price for a number 3 starter.
Holland IS signed for 4yr 26m with 2 team options of 11m......in 6 yrs you will NOT be able to get someone this good at that deal!!!!

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Just to be clear, I actually wasn't suggesting the Twins trade Revere AND Morneau for Holland... just saying both guys seem to be potential fits in Texas, if the two sides could figure out ways to balance out the deal equitably.

People much smarter than I would have to figure out what constiutes "balance".

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 11:22 AM
Holland is signed cheaply for the next five years and the Rangers are going to market him as an ace which he's not. I have a hard time believing they wont ask for more than Revere and one year of Morneau even if the Twins do eat half his salary.

Im pretty sure Nolan Ryan knowns Derek Holland isnt an ACE. Maybe he thinks he is a low end #2. His stats definitely indicate he is not an ace. Just like the poster above, I think getting him out of Texas would be great for him.

drivlikejehu
12-05-2012, 11:28 AM
I don't think Texas has much need for Revere or Morneau at this point. With Borbon and Martin, they already have speedy centerfielders with hitting issues. Morneau has enough question marks and salary that going with Moreland, and maybe Olt during the year sometime, makes more sense.

Having said that, Texas might make other moves that change the situation.

ashburyjohn
12-05-2012, 11:31 AM
I suspect the price will be high as there will be too many other bidders capable of trading a top tier prospect for a chance to solidify their rotation for a pennant run now. But it's worth Ryan's time inquiring - Holland fits the 2015 time frame better than a lot of options being discussed, even at a cost that disrupts 2013 somewhat.

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 11:34 AM
I don't know the Rangers roster inside and out, but I guess I was just basing my thoughts on the fact that they were reportedly trying hard to re-sign Napoli, primarily to play 1B and DH, and it would seem Morneau would fill any need they thought they had for Napoli... and probably better. As for Revere, I was figuring any team that used Josh Hamilton in CF as much as the Rangers did would seem to be able to make some use out of Revere. Whether they need Revere's offensive skill set or not is certainly open to question and could depend on whether they make any of the deals they've been rumored to be considering regarding some of their infielders.

Boom Boom
12-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Acquiring Holland would be a great move for TR, but I'm not sure the Twins have the pieces to get a trade done.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-05-2012, 11:35 AM
lmao, Holland is not an ace and he won't be a Cy Young candidate.

With that said I would take him in a heartbeat, and would give up Revere+Morneau in a heartbeat for him. But I doubt the Rangers would bite on a 4th OF and an expensive injured 1st baseman.

I'm not sure why people want to trade Doumit, we finally get a really nice back up C and we want to dump him?

Ummm, no thanks to 200+ at bats from Drew ****ing Butera.

Boom Boom
12-05-2012, 11:38 AM
lmao, Holland is not an ace and he won't be a Cy Young candidate.

With that said I would take him in a heartbeat, and would give up Revere+Morneau in a heartbeat for him. But I doubt the Rangers would bite on a 4th OF and an expensive injured 1st baseman.

I'm not sure why people want to trade Doumit, we finally get a really nice back up C and we want to dump him?

Ummm, no thanks to 200+ at bats from Drew ****ing Butera.


No, Holland isn't an ace. He's about on par with Scott Baker in my estimation.

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Holland is signed cheaply for the next five years and the Rangers are going to market him as an ace which he's not. I have a hard time believing they wont ask for more than Revere and one year of Morneau even if the Twins do eat half his salary.

Im pretty sure Nolan Ryan knowns Derek Holland isnt an ACE. Maybe he thinks he is a low end #2. His stats definitely indicate he is not an ace. Just like the poster above, I think getting him out of Texas would be great for him.

Ryan obviously knows he's not an ace, thats why he's pushing for Greinke to replace him. That doesn't mean he's not going to use his age and team friendly(ish) deal to ask for an ace's expected return. I don't know how the Twins could get him without losing at least one of their big name prospects.

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-05-2012, 11:50 AM
Holland is signed cheaply for the next five years and the Rangers are going to market him as an ace which he's not. I have a hard time believing they wont ask for more than Revere and one year of Morneau even if the Twins do eat half his salary.

Im pretty sure Nolan Ryan knowns Derek Holland isnt an ACE. Maybe he thinks he is a low end #2. His stats definitely indicate he is not an ace. Just like the poster above, I think getting him out of Texas would be great for him.

Ryan obviously knows he's not an ace, thats why he's pushing for Greinke to replace him. That doesn't mean he's not going to use his age and team friendly(ish) deal to ask for an ace's expected return. I don't know how the Twins could get him without losing at least one of their big name prospects.
Yeah, it could be argued that Holland has quite a bit more "value" then Span...and look at what Washington had to send back in order to get him.

We are looking at a minimum of one of Rosario/Hicks/Arcia most likely.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 11:53 AM
I am holding to my Holland is an ace view (or a strong #2type on a good team). I am a huge fan of his. There is nothing to not like about him.
Young (26), throws hard (93mph fastball in 12), strikeout pitcher (7.4 last 2 yrs), great contract, lefty, postseason success......nothing to not like.
With KC interested & having Will Myers to dangle.....chances are slim if they want him first. Doubt Ryan would dangle anyone of prospect status in top 4/5.
Not gonna happen, but this would be MY great offseason move!!

minn55441
12-05-2012, 12:06 PM
I am holding to my Holland is an ace view (or a strong #2type on a good team). I am a huge fan of his. There is nothing to not like about him.
Young (26), throws hard (93mph fastball in 12), strikeout pitcher (7.4 last 2 yrs), great contract, lefty, postseason success......nothing to not like.
With KC interested & having Will Myers to dangle.....chances are slim if they want him first. Doubt Ryan would dangle anyone of prospect status in top 4/5.
Not gonna happen, but this would be MY great offseason move!!

I don't think he is an ace, but I agree that he is a perfect fit for what we are (should be) looking for. Young, team control through 2014-2015 (when we should be back competing again. I think there is a huge advantage for a pitcher to get out of Texas. His numbers would look much better with half his games played at Target Field.

Does it seem that all of the SP we have heard rumors about are lefty?

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 12:12 PM
I am holding to my Holland is an ace view (or a strong #2type on a good team). I am a huge fan of his. There is nothing to not like about him.
Young (26), throws hard (93mph fastball in 12), strikeout pitcher (7.4 last 2 yrs), great contract, lefty, postseason success......nothing to not like.
With KC interested & having Will Myers to dangle.....chances are slim if they want him first. Doubt Ryan would dangle anyone of prospect status in top 4/5.
Not gonna happen, but this would be MY great offseason move!!

I don't think he is an ace, but I agree that he is a perfect fit for what we are (should be) looking for. Young, team control through 2014-2015 (when we should be back competing again. I think there is a huge advantage for a pitcher to get out of Texas. His numbers would look much better with half his games played at Target Field.

Does it seem that all of the SP we have heard rumors about are lefty?
Let me rephrase my comments on Holland......I dont think he's an ace right now......but I believe he will become one soon.
So my thoughts are more of a prediction on a 26yr old that really impresses me.

gunnarthor
12-05-2012, 12:17 PM
I have no idea what the Rangers would want for him - I think bullpen or firstbase. I wonder how high they are on Arcia? LH power plays well in TX and less so in TF. But I wonder if TX wants immediate help over a prospect.

ScottyB
12-05-2012, 12:39 PM
Holland's contract - 2013 - $3.2M; 2014 - $5.4M; 2015 - $7.4M; 2016 - $10M; 2017 - $11M club option, $1.5M buyout; 2018 -$11.5M club option, $1M buyout. That's cheap, especially with new TV deal starting soon. He becomes the veteran to go along with Meyer, Gibson, and Diamond and maybe Berrios. Compare that to Guthrie at 3/$24M. Even if we had to pay part of Morneau's contract I'd do it.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 12:54 PM
Holland's contract is spectacularly good for whatever team has him......bad for him tho

TRex
12-05-2012, 01:54 PM
Holland's contract is spectacularly good for whatever team has him......bad for him tho

Makes you wonder if the option years become guaranteed if he gets traded...

It would still be a good contract for the Twins, just not a great one.

old nurse
12-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Hey, the Rangers need a catcher! I wonder...

nah... I won't go there again. :)

Reever, Morneau, and Butera?

SpiritofVodkaDave
12-05-2012, 02:02 PM
Holland's contract is spectacularly good for whatever team has him......bad for him tho

Makes you wonder if the option years become guaranteed if he gets traded...



Why would that happen?

old nurse
12-05-2012, 02:08 PM
Even if Texas signs a starter why would Texas be trading SP/ Feldman, Oswalt, and Dempster are off the rotation, Holland becomes your 4th starter, Lewis your fifth. A prospect can take over when the summer heat becomes too much for one of them.

ScottyB
12-05-2012, 02:09 PM
Holland's contract is spectacularly good for whatever team has him......bad for him tho

Makes you wonder if the option years become guaranteed if he gets traded...

It would still be a good contract for the Twins, just not a great one.

He's still only 31 at the end of the option years. Compare that to what we paid Pavano. Holland has much more upside. Send them Revere, Morneau, $7M, and choice of Boyd, Williams or Hauser, for Holland and a prospect.

crapforks
12-05-2012, 02:10 PM
If TX wants Morneau and a Kepler level prospect, I'm hoping JR pulls the trigger

ScottyB
12-05-2012, 05:55 PM
Even if Texas signs a starter why would Texas be trading SP/ Feldman, Oswalt, and Dempster are off the rotation, Holland becomes your 4th starter, Lewis your fifth. A prospect can take over when the summer heat becomes too much for one of them.

Yea - with Feliz and Lewis out until at least June, maybe we better set this aside until the trade deadline, even if they sign Grienke AND Sanchez.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
If TX wants Morneau and a Kepler level prospect, I'm hoping JR pulls the trigger

Oh man, I dont know about trading Kepler. Scouts are raving about him, and I like him alot.

Twins Twerp
12-05-2012, 06:25 PM
What about Hicks and Morneau? I think that is what they would ask for, not that I would pull the trigger on that deal. Maybe a throw-in from Texas like Olt or Profar...I like to kid around...but Hicks for Morneau what do you think?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 06:40 PM
What about Hicks and Morneau? I think that is what they would ask for, not that I would pull the trigger on that deal. Maybe a throw-in from Texas like Olt or Profar...I like to kid around...but Hicks for Morneau what do you think?

Hicks and Morneau.....HELL NO

kab21
12-05-2012, 07:10 PM
I would without a doubt trade Hicks and Morneau for Holland even if his contract wasn't so team friendly. The Twins need to address the future that Morneau isn't part of and Hicks is a nice prospect but he hasn't done anything yet and the Twins have tons of OF'ers. Holland still needs to take the step from solid starter to well above average but I'm a big Holland fan if he can get out of Texas.

SpantheMan
12-05-2012, 07:19 PM
Texas is contending. They might want to fill ml needs more than they would want to get prospects

CC7
12-05-2012, 07:21 PM
naww, flip
red sox : perkins, hicks, doizer, salcedo
twins: Elsburry, lester

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 07:22 PM
naww, flip
red sox : perkins, hicks, doizer, salcedo
twins: Elsburry, lester

As much as I would like this trade....I dont think the Red Sox would do it.

CC7
12-05-2012, 07:38 PM
i feel like they would

Brandon
12-05-2012, 07:48 PM
the rangers have a a few fa next year in Young and Nelson cruz. they can let them go and save money if they have players ready to step in and play. who does that amount to one of our OF prospects and Burton and someone else Herman????

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 07:56 PM
i feel like they would

I dont think they would. That would be selling awfully low. I think they might trade those guys....just not this offseason, and give them time to rebound after down years last year and trade them at the trade deadline.

CC7
12-05-2012, 08:03 PM
I dont think they would. That would be selling awfully low. I think they might trade those guys....just not this offseason, and give them time to rebound after down years last year and trade them at the trade deadline.[/QUOTE]

perkins and hicks for elsburry
kepler, low level prospect and casey fine for lester

Deal?

kab21
12-05-2012, 08:14 PM
Texas is contending. They might want to fill ml needs more than they would want to get prospects

Hicks is months away and fills a need cheaply while Morneau fills a need. I wouldn't do it if I was Texas though but I disagree with the HELL NO comment. Holland is exactly what this team needs but I don't think the Twins have the right stuff to pull off the trade now that Span is gone.

diehardtwinsfan
12-05-2012, 08:18 PM
Holland pitched like an ace in the minors but hasn't done a whole lot in 3 ML seasons... I wouldn't mind aquiring him, but he's also about to get expensive and could in theory be gone when the new core of hitters is arriving...

kab21
12-05-2012, 08:24 PM
The fact that he's struggled is the only reason that he's remotely available.

Home ERA - 5.34
Road ERA - 4.08

In what world is the following expensive and how will he be gone when the hitters are arriving? I hope the new hitters arrive in the next 6 years.
3.2M
5.4M
7.4M
10M
11M option
11.5M option

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 08:37 PM
I dont think they would. That would be selling awfully low. I think they might trade those guys....just not this offseason, and give them time to rebound after down years last year and trade them at the trade deadline.

perkins and hicks for elsburry
kepler, low level prospect and casey fine for lester

Deal?[/QUOTE]

Probably a deal there.