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Parker Hageman
12-05-2012, 09:42 AM
The Star Tribune's LaVelle E Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/182185151.html) reports that the Twins have "several offers" out to starting pitchers including Joe Saunders and Francisco Liriano. He also adds that as many as seven teams could be interested in Liriano.

Shane Wahl
12-05-2012, 09:58 AM
The Star Tribune's LaVelle E Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/182185151.html) reports that the Twins have "several offers" out to starting pitchers including Joe Saunders and Francisco Liriano. He also adds that as many as seven teams could be interested in Liriano.

Haha, how terrible. I would laugh my ass off at this team if they added Saunders and Liriano and called it over. Saunders is a walking Blackburn explosion and Liriano being considered for this team by anyone is insane.

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 10:03 AM
I guess it's encouraging that the Twins have moved past the "checking in" phase and have actually made some offers. I'm more of a fan of Saunders than most people around here are, I would guess.

If nothing else, he'd give us CR Kernels fans someone new to root for in a Twins uniform, now that Alexi's gone. :)

Obviously, neither of these guys can be the "top" pitcher the Twins add this offseason, however.

Kwak
12-05-2012, 10:07 AM
Since the Twins are using "personal catchers" for some pitchers, would Liriano get a "personal pitching coach"? Anderson hasn't done much with him.

mike wants wins
12-05-2012, 10:07 AM
As long as two better pitchers are signed also....like, you know, better than Diamond.....still hoping.

Rosterman
12-05-2012, 10:10 AM
Liriano has several offers. Right.

Boom Boom
12-05-2012, 10:11 AM
Ah, the "quantity over quality" approach.

I wonder how many of those teams with alleged interest in Liriano want him to work out of the bullpen.

mike wants wins
12-05-2012, 10:14 AM
Maybe they should go with only 1 starter, and everyone else pitches 3 innings every few days....it is a concept several have floated, and would be waaaaaaay cheaper to implement.

ScottyB
12-05-2012, 10:17 AM
My concern is that with few exceptions (notably Mauer and Morneau), the front office's mentality is back in the 90's when Kirby Puckett got the first $3M contract. They think that an $8M contract is as high as they should go. In today's environment as we have seen, this is unrealistic. We are going to be outbid for every pitcher we bid on. To obtain pitching we are going to have to pay much more than that especially if we want shorter term contracts. If Jeremy Guthrie can get a 3/$24M contract, it's going to take more for a decent pitcher. Paying $5M for a pitcher, you're going to get what you pay for, a pitching staff much as last season.

I still haven't heard anything about Carlos Villanueva anywhere and I think he could be fairly reasonable because he wants to start, not be in a bullpen. I would start him initially, and move him to the bullpen in the future,

East Coast Twin
12-05-2012, 10:18 AM
The Star Tribune's LaVelle E Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/182185151.html) reports that the Twins have "several offers" out to starting pitchers including Joe Saunders and Francisco Liriano. He also adds that as many as seven teams could be interested in Liriano.

My guess is that LaVelle's source is from the players' side, since Saunders and Liriano share the same agent. It's possible that the Twins have also made other offers that LaVelle can't confirm.

USAFChief
12-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Maybe they should go with only 1 starter, and everyone else pitches 3 innings every few days....it is a concept several have floated, and would be waaaaaaay cheaper to implement.

The Twins tried this in 2012...only it was their starters who "pitched 3 innings every few days."

//rimshot//

beckmt
12-05-2012, 10:28 AM
Maybe they should go with only 1 starter, and everyone else pitches 3 innings every few days....it is a concept several have floated, and would be waaaaaaay cheaper to implement.

The Twins tried this in 2012...only it was their starters who "pitched 3 innings every few days."



//rimshot//
The Twins tried this in 2012...only it was their starters who "pitched 3 innings every few days."

Nice idea, since this may happen if the Twins do not get some decent starters. It is cheaper to build an 8 - 9 man bullpen of reasonable quality than to find 4 - 5 starting pitchers starting from 1.
Hope the Twins get neither Saunders or Liarino, though maybe Bobby Cuellar can help Liarino. This could also be rumors from agents hoping to increase the offers their clients are receiving.
Still hoping for Marcum with McCarthy as the fallback option and would like both.
Mlbtraderumors reports the Twins are checking on Morneau's value. Wonder if TR's budget is closer to $80 mil than $90 mil

Jim Crikket
12-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Since the Twins are using "personal catchers" for some pitchers, would Liriano get a "personal pitching coach"? Anderson hasn't done much with him.

Well, yeah, kinda. I believe Cuellar has been credited for helping Liriano a bit when they were together in the minors and since he'll be the Twins bullpen coach this season, you probably aren't far off. That could be factoring in to what the Twins are thinking.

Monkeypaws
12-05-2012, 10:29 AM
Deduno looks better all the time....

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
12-05-2012, 10:33 AM
This is just ridiculous. I hope this is wrong. We cant win with a staff anchored down by Joe Saunders......Just hearing Liriano's name makes my head about to explode. This is just ridiculous, if the Twins Sign Liriano im giving up all hope on the Twins.

Shane Wahl
12-05-2012, 10:36 AM
There is no reason to spend ANYTHING on pitchers like these two. They are replacement-level. Sam Deduno and company can do the exact same thing.

Boom Boom
12-05-2012, 10:39 AM
Since the Twins are using "personal catchers" for some pitchers, would Liriano get a "personal pitching coach"? Anderson hasn't done much with him.

Well, yeah, kinda. I believe Cuellar has been credited for helping Liriano a bit when they were together in the minors and since he'll be the Twins bullpen coach this season, you probably aren't far off. That could be factoring in to what the Twins are thinking.

Maybe Cuellar could fix Nick Blackburn again while he's at it?
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Nick_Blackburn_turns_to_video_Pitch_FX_in_effort_t o_fix_mechanics071912

Teflon
12-05-2012, 10:40 AM
2807

I would take Liriano back if modern day technology has come up with one of those devices like they had in Star Trek to control Spock's body after his brain was stolen.

StormJH1
12-05-2012, 10:41 AM
This is just ridiculous. I hope this is wrong. We cant win with a staff anchored down by Joe Saunders......Just hearing Liriano's name makes my head about to explode. This is just ridiculous, if the Twins Sign Liriano im giving up all hope on the Twins.

From a broader sense, I get where you're coming from. But if you've been following any of the podcasts/discussions about free agents (as I'm sure you have)...

(1) Saunders is exactly the type of FA starter I would've expected the Twins to target. Especially in light of the fact that they need more than one.

(2) I was very negative on Liriano in another thread in terms of his likelihood of bouncing back, overall track record, and concern that some team will give him a speculative multi-year deal. But it really all depends. If it's one year for $5 to $7 million, yes it's a risk, but it's also at least a small ray of upside in a rotation that otherwise has NO chance for upside. If they were sign Saunders (or a Saunders-like FA), you have back-of-the-order free agents paired with Scott Diamond, who might just turn back into a pumpkin this year. There certainly was any track record to suggest he'd be even this good.

There really is little hope for a one-year fix to the rotation. Even in a best a best-case scenario, where Gibson makes the team and starts fanning guys like crazy, followed my Meyer doing the same after a July callup, the innings from both of those guys combined would hardly add up to one starter.

Some of the upper-mid-level names like Brandon McCarthy were my best hope for FA (or maybe another trade), but that's starting to seem a little less likely. I'm focusing more on long-term picture now than instant gratification, and the Span/Meyer trade seems to be a decent start.

StormJH1
12-05-2012, 10:46 AM
There is no reason to spend ANYTHING on pitchers like these two. They are replacement-level. Sam Deduno and company can do the exact same thing.

That's not really true with Liriano. Even as HORRIBLE as Liriano was last year, his strikeout numbers were elite. It's just the case that his control completely fell off the wagon to the point where he became Jonathan Sanchez. You also just get the sense that at 28, and without the crazy raw stuff he had pre-TJ surgery, he's back to being "thrower", as he never had to worry about the mental game of "pitching" when he could just blow everyone away.

Even though Deduno probably was "better" than Liriano last year, he doesn't have the ultimate ability of Liriano to miss bats AND control pitches. Deduno struck more guys out in the minors than he did for the Twins, but he's never had MLB-worthy control at any point in his career.

Top Gun
12-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Since the Twins are using "personal catchers" for some pitchers = Butera gets lots of work!

East Coast Twin
12-05-2012, 10:52 AM
The Star Tribune's LaVelle E Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/182185151.html) reports that the Twins have "several offers" out to starting pitchers including Joe Saunders and Francisco Liriano. He also adds that as many as seven teams could be interested in Liriano.

My guess is that LaVelle's source is from the players' side, since Saunders and Liriano share the same agent. It's possible that the Twins have also made other offers that LaVelle can't confirm.

John Heyman also identified Edwin Jackson, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy, Jair Jurrjens and Carl Pavano as potential Twins targets. I'm sure the Twins aren't going to confirm who they've given offers to. LaVelle can only write the name of players he can confirm.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 11:02 AM
cannot imagine the backlash that will happen if they resign Liriano. As TopGun said......it makes sense after they offerred Butera arbitration as they have to find sometime for him to catch.
MN/Ryan are complaining about how teams are overpaying for pitchers BUT all that is happenning is the market is set higher than TRyan will pay. If they do a couple sloths as pitchers like Liriano/Saunders.....are we looking at a 75/80m payroll as Terry has stated that he is not messing with the everyday lineup by signing more guys.

twinsfaninsaudi
12-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Saunders has a major league track record that includes durability and pitching innings for full seasons over the course of several seasons. There is currently no one in the organization who can have that said about them. So why would someone complain about signing him?

Brock Beauchamp
12-05-2012, 12:17 PM
Saunders has a major league track record that includes durability and pitching innings for full seasons over the course of several seasons. There is currently no one in the organization who can have that said about them. So why would someone complain about signing him?

My guess is because he's not very good and he's over 30.

But I've come to the point where I'll take damned near anybody that isn't some reclamation project off the scrapheap.

joeboo_22
12-05-2012, 12:22 PM
Look who the Twins are after and tell me that Liriano for less then 5 million on a 1 year deal is not a bad move? At worst I think he can help in the bullpen, but I think with Cuellar on the staff could help Liriano at least become a decent starter. His SO numbers weren't terrible, when he had control he was good, he still gave up some HR's but he will. And again if he is pitching decent he can be traded at the deadline.

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 12:25 PM
Saunders has a major league track record that includes durability and pitching innings for full seasons over the course of several seasons. There is currently no one in the organization who can have that said about them. So why would someone complain about signing him?

My guess is because he's not very good and he's over 30.

But I've come to the point where I'll take damned near anybody that isn't some reclamation project off the scrapheap.

My guess is because even Joe Saunders is going to demand $8-12 million which means he'll be the Twins big free agent spend even though he should be considered a #4 starter and a Joe Saunders anchored rotation is going to continue the Target Field attendance drain.

Tcrose3636
12-05-2012, 12:26 PM
I guess at this point I am hoping for McCarthy, Lannan, and Saunders. And hoping that Liriano would be considered a bullpen addition.....a lot of hoping and listening to Mackey, my standards have dropped a ton.

Twins Twerp
12-05-2012, 12:47 PM
We knew this would happen. I don't know why we are sad about this. There is no reason to go out and spend money on a top tier guy, when we are 4-5 top tier guys away from winning. We are a horrible team right now and overpaying for a Sanchez is bad business. Nothing in the Twins history or hearing from Terry Ryan has told us otherwise. The fact that we might sign three new guys for the rotation is very un-twinslike. My guess is Saunders for 2 years at about 18-20, Liriano for 5 (and hopefully gets his trade value up and we trade him again), and maybe, maybe a guy like McCarthy. A rotation of Saunders, Liriano, Diamond, McCarthy, and whatever AAAA pitcher pitches best in spring ball, is better than the rejects we threw out there last year. Is this a .500 rotation, probably not. But Liriano in the bullpen in July when Gibson comes up makes this a better, younger rotation.

I don't mean to beat the drum on Liriano, but the guy (gulp) has potential.

twinsfaninsaudi
12-05-2012, 12:52 PM
Saunders has a major league track record that includes durability and pitching innings for full seasons over the course of several seasons. There is currently no one in the organization who can have that said about them. So why would someone complain about signing him?

My guess is because he's not very good and he's over 30.

But I've come to the point where I'll take damned near anybody that isn't some reclamation project off the scrapheap.

My guess is because even Joe Saunders is going to demand $8-12 million which means he'll be the Twins big free agent spend even though he should be considered a #4 starter and a Joe Saunders anchored rotation is going to continue the Target Field attendance drain.


It's just really doubtful That the twins are going to give out a Gil Meche like contract in order to attract one of the in-demand pitchers on the market. Therefore those pitchers will go to other teams that will easily match the twins offer and won't be as glaringly lined up for a losing season.




It means the pitchers that will have an incentive to sign with the twins are the ones who were kicked out of a rotation at some point within the last year because they have the incentive to sign somewhere without stiff competition for a rotation spot so they will be assured of being starters. So that means you're looking at Correia, Liriano, Jurrgens, and Lannan.*

If the get Saunders, I'd call it an unexpected accomplishment.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 12:53 PM
Twins would always say they dont spend in FA when they are good as they dont want to mess up their chemistry/roster
Twins say they dont want to spend in FA when they are bad cause they are too far away from contending.
Twins just dont like spending in FA period.

beckmt
12-05-2012, 12:57 PM
I tend to agree with twinsfaninsaudi, the twins are being used by agents to run up the price as the teams cannot share information, but the agents probably do on offers, so agents just take the twins offer to clubs they want to sign with for more money, or the agents use the twins rumor to extract more money

Oxtung
12-05-2012, 01:38 PM
It's amazing how things have changed in 5 months. Many fans wanted a front line starter prospect back for Liriano at the trade deadline or were flat out upset that he wasn't resigned. Now many don't even want him on the team no matter how low his salary. Just goes to show how much we as fans tend to overrate players based on emotional attachment.

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 01:47 PM
But why would anyone be OK with a rebuilding team paying a #4 starter $10 million each of the next three years? If Saunders is the best they can do, it's best to do nothing as 2013 is sunk and Saunders would be of no future help. Like I mentioned above, it's not like he'll help sell tickets.

mike wants wins
12-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Why do I care if they spend that money on Saunders if the alternative is to pocket it? I would rather they sign him and trade him in a year, or keep him around, than watch the staff they had last year.

greengoblinrulz
12-05-2012, 01:59 PM
Frankie's 2012
First 6 starts 0W 5L 26.2IP 37h .346BAA .369Babip 28er 9.45era 6hr 21k 19bb .435OBP .589slgg
5 relief appearances
Next 11 starts 3W 5L 66IP 45h .190BAA .252Babip 27er 3.68era 6hr 79k 29bb .283OBP .312slgg
After Don Cooper fixed him
12gm 11st 3W 2L 56.2IP 54h .251BAA .311Babip 34er 5.40era 7hr 58k 32bb .355OBP .405slgg
WHY would MN take a shot on someone who you have NO idea what you're getting from start to start

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 02:02 PM
Why do I care if they spend that money on Saunders if the alternative is to pocket it? I would rather they sign him and trade him in a year, or keep him around, than watch the staff they had last year.

I'll agree if the deal is only for 2013, but there should be better ways to invest that money in 2014 and 2015.

Kwak
12-05-2012, 02:04 PM
I tend to agree with twinsfaninsaudi, the twins are being used by agents to run up the price as the teams cannot share information, but the agents probably do on offers, so agents just take the twins offer to clubs they want to sign with for more money, or the agents use the twins rumor to extract more money
They don't need to--there are plenty of others who are passing said information around, such that interested parties can/will find out.

mike wants wins
12-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Well, if you do not want them to spend money this year, will you want them to next year, when it is way more expensive? That is the part that I do not understand in these discussions. But I am willing to listen....

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 02:09 PM
Frankie's 2012
First 6 starts 0W 5L 26.2IP 37h .346BAA .369Babip 28er 9.45era 6hr 21k 19bb .435OBP .589slgg
5 relief appearances
Next 11 starts 3W 5L 66IP 45h .190BAA .252Babip 27er 3.68era 6hr 79k 29bb .283OBP .312slgg
After Don Cooper fixed him
12gm 11st 3W 2L 56.2IP 54h .251BAA .311Babip 34er 5.40era 7hr 58k 32bb .355OBP .405slgg
WHY would MN take a shot on someone who you have NO idea what you're getting from start to start

But you do know. He's predictably inconsistant. He'll start off slow, though he does still generally pitch a 1-2-3 first inning. He should be a one inning guy in the pen until mid May to counter his poor control. Mid May stretch him out so that by June, when his WHIP and K/9 make a big improvment, he can join the roatation. Come the end of July, after managing his strengths and minimizing his flaws, move him for a modest return and aviod his late season swoon. This game plan wouldn't have only worked in 2012, but virtually every one of Frankies full seasons, it's not much of a gamble if you're expecting this outcome.

Ryan wouldn't have the guts to plan for this though so he's probably not worth it.

nicksaviking
12-05-2012, 02:28 PM
Well, if you do not want them to spend money this year, will you want them to next year, when it is way more expensive? That is the part that I do not understand in these discussions. But I am willing to listen....

I'm with you on not wanting the let the team get away with going with a minimal payroll. My problem with signing Saunders is that it is a catch-22. If he's your big free agent signing you know 2013 is already a lost cause so why bother making the siging at all?

Your right about if they don't spend now, why would they next year. Aside from having to likely give multiple years at about $10 million per, the thing that would bug me the most is that there are still better options. I'd much rather have Edwin Jackson and Shawn Marcum. The money should be spent to go toward those guys even if they have to overpay to make them come to Minnesota. There is more potential in those arms.

LaBombo
12-05-2012, 02:31 PM
If the get Saunders, I'd call it an unexpected accomplishment.

The fact that your claim can't easily be disputed is the most punishing indictment of the Twins I can imagine.