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Parker Hageman
11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
2769According to Ben Goessling, the Twins have traded Denard Span for pitcher Alex Meyer.

The big bodied Meyer, 6'9" and 220, spent last year split between A and High-A, striking out 26.6% of batters faced and walking just 8.6%.

Fangraphs.com (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/washington-nationals-pitching-prospect-alex-meyer-scouting-report-video/) had an excellent write-up on Meyer, noting that his 97-98 MPH fastball is very impressive in addition to his slider - which Baseball America consider the system's best after the 2011 season (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612574.html). Here's Mike Newman's (Scouting the Sally) scouting report on Meyer's secondary stuff:

Meyer mixed in an upper-80′s slider with tight, late break. At its best, his arm action was identical to that of his fastball and it profiled as at least an above-average pitch. However, Meyer’s inconsistent mechanics caused him to intermittently drop his elbow or collapse his back leg leading to at least a handful of “hangers” up in the zone. Repetition and experience may help to iron these issues out, but once again, Meyer’s size and previous track record leaves questions as to how seamless those adjustments will be.

The most surprising aspect of Meyer’s outing was a changeup which was significantly better than expected. At 87-88 MPH, it was a harder change, but his arm action and late drop leaves the projection of an average third pitch — a key for projecting a starting pitcher. Once again, his command was inconsistent causing him to leave the pitch up and out to right-handed hitters too often, but it’s a strong starting point to build from.


Newman went on to say that the name that popped into his head the most was "Matt Clement" - a promising pitcher who never lived up to the hype.

Danchat
11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
Goodbye Denard. Good luck in Washington.
Now, let's see how this kid pitches. Please, this better not be another terrible trade!

PseudoSABR
11-29-2012, 03:38 PM
delete

mikeee
11-29-2012, 03:40 PM
he's a tall one. 6' 9"

PseudoSABR
11-29-2012, 03:41 PM
W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB
10 6 .625 2.86 25 25 0 1 1 0 129.0 97 44 41 6 45 0 139 5 0 9 521 1.101 6.8 0.4 3.1 9.7 3.09



Provided by Baseball-Reference.com (http://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): View Original Table (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=meyer-001ale&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#standard_pitching)
Generated 11/29/2012.

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 03:41 PM
If true, you have to like this move. The market on Denard was unfortunately weak (and for no good reason, really). Receiving a fireballer like Meyer is a huge get.

minn55441
11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
Ok, TR made the trade. Not looking at 2013 for a trade for the future.

Dbohnk
11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
I like Meyer's potential but I thought the twins were going to go after somebody young who could help the team this year and years to come

TwinsFanInPhilly
11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
Good get!!!

Parker Hageman
11-29-2012, 03:42 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1206-Twins-trade-Denard-Span-for-Nationals-2011-first-round-pick

Cris E
11-29-2012, 03:44 PM
So we now know we're not building towards 2013. There was always this implied "two good starters and we're in it" vibe and this belies that. As much as that seems obvious, if they'd managed to land, say, Santana, McCarthy *and* Meyers there would have been a real shot at .500. Trading top chip Span for non-2013 talent says not to hold your breath for the others either.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 03:45 PM
Payroll went down some more!

minn55441
11-29-2012, 03:46 PM
I can live with this. We just have to trust that our scouts did their job and that he has a good chance to continue his progression and quickly move his way through the organization. As usual, only time will tell if this is a good trade.

Dilligaf69
11-29-2012, 03:48 PM
Obviously not a suprise...the trade of Span or his destination. Hard thrower with upside which are both needs for this org.. Don't follow the minors enough to know anything about this guy except what i read.

Boom Boom
11-29-2012, 03:48 PM
I guess this is the right direction.

How many years before Meyer gets a September call-up?

syves
11-29-2012, 03:49 PM
A starter with top of the rotation potential who's a year away is better than a number 3 who's ready now. I'm good with this trade. Now sign some pitchers for this year with the money saved!

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 03:50 PM
He's definitely not a "pitch to contact" guy. Upper 90's fastball with an upper 80's slider. Let's just hope he doesn't have a history of arm problems.

jm3319
11-29-2012, 03:51 PM
I like it. Trading from a position of excess to fill a void. Makes too much sense not to do it. Here's hoping this guy develops into a Major Leaguer in the next couple years.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 03:51 PM
I am a huge fan of this move!

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 03:52 PM
I've seen him ranked as either the Nats #2 or #3 prospect. On this surface it looks like we got really good value for Span, even if it's a pitcher that won't be ready until 2014. Although I have to wonder if he'll be put on the 40 man, start in AA and be a possibility for a September call up next year.

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 03:54 PM
....And we all know that Bill Smith would have traded him for Kurt Suzuki, so I think we did ok here.

striker_86
11-29-2012, 03:55 PM
Great move, we have tons of outfielders....

minn55441
11-29-2012, 03:58 PM
Span will be missed in 2013, but we are looking to 2014 and beyond with this move.

jtrinaldi
11-29-2012, 03:59 PM
Who goes next? Willingham and Morneau at the Winter Meetings?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 03:59 PM
Love this move. We really did need to add to our pitching prospects due to the fact have 1 or 2 legit pitching prospects right now. I believe this is TR saying we are going to win this year, but we are building to have a good team in 2014/15. A guy who pitches in the high 90s? Get out of town? Crazy they didnt get a guy who throws a 90mph FB and has an average change up and a curve.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:00 PM
1. Sano
2. Buxton
3. Hicks
4. Meyer
5. Arcia
6. Gibson
7. Rosario

Not a bad farm system.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 04:00 PM
Who goes next? Willingham and Morneau at the Winter Meetings?

You have to believe so. Willingham is likely at his peak in terms of value and Morneau might not be, but if we are building for 2014/15 you have to believe we will be hear a bunch of rumors/ posts on this website of possible destinations.

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 04:00 PM
This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 04:01 PM
1. Sano
2. Buxton
3. Hicks
4. Meyer
5. Arcia
6. Rosario
7. Gibson

Not a bad farm system.

Considering our farm system was one of the worst ranked a couple year back it doesnt look to bad at all.

strumdatjag
11-29-2012, 04:01 PM
The Twins need some potential elite pitching - and I think 2015 looks more likely for a guy currently in high-A Ball. They have a glut of talent in the outfield. This trade makes uber-sense. Pitchers can blow out their arms, and that may happen with this guy. BUT, that doesn't mean the Twins shouldn't stock up on potentially good and great pitching. An outfield of Parmalee in right, Revere in Center and Willingham in right is not much of a downgrade (especially if Revere's arm continues to show growing strength). Other good (maybe great) outfielders waiting in the wings.

PseudoSABR
11-29-2012, 04:01 PM
Meyer’s a bit of a lottery ticket. Legitimate upside, legitimate concerns about his future role, and at least another year of development before he’s ready to contribute in Minnesota. Meyer’s a Top 100 prospect, and if you think he’ll stick as a starter, probably a Top 50 guy. The Twins got a real talent back in return for Span, but it’s a talent with too many question marks to be the piece they’re getting back in return for a three win player under team control at a fraction of his market price.Fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/) likes the trade a lot more for the Nats, however.

Span for a top 50 prospect seems totally reasonable; I can't imagine the Twins acquiring Meyer if they don't he will start.

Steve Penz
11-29-2012, 04:04 PM
Great stuff. This lowered the payroll, acquired a young arm, and made room for younger players while not sacrificing any prospects. There are never guarantees but this looks like a great move.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:05 PM
This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

jtrinaldi
11-29-2012, 04:05 PM
Ill go

1. Sano
2. Arcia
3. Rosario
4. Buxton
5. Meyer
6. Hicks
7. Gibson
8. Kepler

Big City
11-29-2012, 04:07 PM
Wow, surprising it's not a more MLB ready SP like Delgado or Leake, neither of whom I was all that excited about. Good to see we just added our future potential #1. God bless Span, he's a great guy and a really good baseball player and he'll definitely be missed but this was best for all parties. I'm shocked this move didn't happen at the Winter Meetings but maybe TR has something else cooking for Willingham and/or Morneau. Still 3-4 spots left to fill in the rotation, what's going to happen next???

TwinsFanInPhilly
11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
Sickels had him as a B in his 2012 book - FWIW

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 04:09 PM
This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??


Not to get all "Deadspin" on you Dave, but +1. How is a team's #2/#3 prospect be considered a "C" prospect???

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:10 PM
Meyer’s a bit of a lottery ticket. Legitimate upside, legitimate concerns about his future role, and at least another year of development before he’s ready to contribute in Minnesota. Meyer’s a Top 100 prospect, and if you think he’ll stick as a starter, probably a Top 50 guy. The Twins got a real talent back in return for Span, but it’s a talent with too many question marks to be the piece they’re getting back in return for a three win player under team control at a fraction of his market price.Fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/) likes the trade a lot more for the Nats, however.

Span for a top 50 prospect seems totally reasonable; I can't imagine the Twins acquiring Meyer if they don't he will start.
That's because Cameron is strictly a numbers guy (unless it comes to his beloved Mariners of course)

Yes, Span had a very impressive WAR that was bolstered by a very strong UZR. But lets be honest, Span benefited a TON in 2011 and 2012 from having Revere in the OF as well. Notice how his UZR in CF doubled from 2010 to 2011/2012?

This isn't saying Span isn't a good CF, just that he isn't as great as the defensive metrics would lead you to believe. The Twins did the right thing in this case by trading him while his value was high, as much as I like Span he did have his warts, injury issues for one, and in both 2010 and 2011 he failed to reach a .690 OPS.

I think its a very fair trade, and if Meyer can reach his potential or anything close it ends up a win for the Twins since:

1. They have a stop gap CF in Revere.
2. They have a couple stud CF's who should be ready within a year or two.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 04:10 PM
Wow, surprising it's not a more MLB ready SP like Delgado or Leake, neither of whom I was all that excited about. Good to see we just added our future potential #1.

Is Meyer projected as a potential number 1?

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 04:11 PM
I think Bonnes has been spending too much time with Cory Cove....a "C" prospect???

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 04:11 PM
How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

Entering the 2012 season, BP ranked him 5th overall among the Nationals prospect, giving him 3 stars, which is a C prospect. BA ranked him 6th overall. And I don't see a lot in his numbers last year to have changed that opinion of him. I won't dicker between calling him a C+ or a B-, and I hope he's a C prospect with some upside, but a K/9 or 9 in High-A isn't exactly other-worldly stuff, no matter what his velocity.

I don't know that I would rank him in the same area you would. I'm also far from sure he'll be a top 50 prospect, or even top 100. But I'll admit, I'm far from an expert on the status of minor leaguers.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:13 PM
Sickels had him as a B in his 2012 book - FWIW
Yup, and that was prior to a very strong 2012 season with a 9.7 k rate, 1.101 WHIP and 2.86 ERA.

He is a B/borderline B+ prospect at this point who has some nice upside.

Anorthagen
11-29-2012, 04:15 PM
I am sad about seeing span go, but I knew it was for the good of the team. It also lowered the payroll, which was good. But I really think Ryan should have tried to get somebody who is ready or already in the big leagues, instead of a guy who can't help us till 2014.

gunnarthor
11-29-2012, 04:17 PM
I like Meyer as the centerpiece although I wish we could have gotten one more player back.

I don't think it'll hurt the club that much going from a Willingham/Span/Revere outfield to a Willingham/Revere/Parmelee outfield. We lose some OBP but, hopefully, Parmelee or Plouffe (or Hicks/Arcia) can develop some pop.

luke829
11-29-2012, 04:18 PM
I just have to wonder what Bill Smith would've done in this type of situation (shudders)

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:20 PM
How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

Entering the 2012 season, BP ranked him 5th overall among the Nationals prospect, giving him 3 stars, which is a C prospect. BA ranked him 6th overall. And I don't see a lot in his numbers last year to have changed that opinion of him. I won't dicker between calling him a C+ or a B-, and I hope he's a C prospect with some upside, but a K/9 or 9 in High-A isn't exactly other-worldly stuff, no matter what his velocity.

I don't know that I would rank him in the same area you would. I'm also far from sure he'll be a top 50 prospect, or even top 100. But I'll admit, I'm far from an expert on the status of minor leaguers.

You realize that prior to 2012 he had exactly 0 pitches thrown for a major league organization right? How is "nothing he did" in 2012 worthy of ranking him higher? He had a very successful 2012 IMO and it isn't all about k rate (even though a 9.7 k/9 is in fact pretty good, especially when he has a respectable BB rate, a great WHIP and a solid GB rate of about 55%)

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just think his 2012 bumps his value up quite a bit.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 04:20 PM
How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

Entering the 2012 season, BP ranked him 5th overall among the Nationals prospect, giving him 3 stars, which is a C prospect. BA ranked him 6th overall. And I don't see a lot in his numbers last year to have changed that opinion of him. I won't dicker between calling him a C+ or a B-, and I hope he's a C prospect with some upside, but a K/9 or 9 in High-A isn't exactly other-worldly stuff, no matter what his velocity.

I don't know that I would rank him in the same area you would. I'm also far from sure he'll be a top 50 prospect, or even top 100. But I'll admit, I'm far from an expert on the status of minor leaguers.

Jim Hoey threw the ball hard too.

minn55441
11-29-2012, 04:21 PM
I am sad about seeing span go, but I knew it was for the good of the team. It also lowered the payroll, which was good. But I really think Ryan should have tried to get somebody who is ready or already in the big leagues, instead of a guy who can't help us till 2014.

I'm reading into this, that TR really liked this guy. I think this really is a big hit to our 2013 lineup. We now have a below average Def outfield with both Parmelee and Willingham playing everyday. I also think Span was a much better lead off guy than Ben will ever be.

Again, TR must really be high on this guy to give up span and know we are in for a rocky 2013 on the field.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:22 PM
I am sad about seeing span go, but I knew it was for the good of the team. It also lowered the payroll, which was good. But I really think Ryan should have tried to get somebody who is ready or already in the big leagues, instead of a guy who can't help us till 2014.
The problem with getting a guy who is ready/already in the big leagues is:
1. That player may not have a lot of team control left.
2. That player probably doesn't have nearly as high of a ceiling as Meyer does.

Chances are you would have to settle for an average #3/#4 with only a couple years of team control left. The Braves weren't going to give up a guy like Minor no matter how much some of us wanted to pray/believe.

Meyer while not ready now, shouldn't take to much more seasoning to be ready. 2014 is only a year away after all :)

mudcat14
11-29-2012, 04:22 PM
I'm really quite surprised that this is a one for one deal. Granted Meyer has oustanding upside, but also a high potential for failure having not pitched above the 'A' level. I would have expected another piece to come the Twins way in a deal like this. At least it should free up some cash to help add a short-term solution or two in the starting rotation.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:23 PM
Jim Hoey threw the ball hard too.
Derp.

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 04:23 PM
You realize that prior to 2012 he had exactly 0 pitches thrown for a major league organization right? How is "nothing he did" in 2012 worthy of ranking him higher? He had a very successful 2012 IMO and it isn't all about k rate (even though a 9.7 k/9 is in fact pretty good, especially when he has a respectable BB rate, a great WHIP and a solid GB rate of about 55%)

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just think his 2012 bumps his value up quite a bit.

In my mind, a 22-year-old college pitcher SHOULD dominate Low A, and probably should dominate High A. He certainly didn't do the latter, with a K rate in the 7s, albeit in 39 innings. Now, maybe he was tired or something, I don't know. I'm not saying he hurt his value. I just don't think he necessarily helped it.

TheLeviathan
11-29-2012, 04:27 PM
Alex Myers the name James Shields gives himself when he wears his high heels? Otherwise, reality strikes again. In a good way I might add - a solid prospect that slots to be coming to the majors about the same time as our best young talent? Sounds like the right kind of trade to me. Now to see if it pans out.

StormJH1
11-29-2012, 04:31 PM
I like this deal. I was trying to lower expectations earlier this morning about what we could actually fetch in a trade for Span, and this as good as we could have realistically hoped for in a prospect. Plus, he's absolutely huge, throws hard, and his control is not that bad. I understand that he's 22 and was pitching in two levels in A-ball, but he pitched well at both levels. The Nationals have a decent organization, and it wasn't Meyer's choice not to get a call up. Danny Hultzen was considered close to MLB-ready, but the Mariners kept him in AA ball for most of the year, and he's a little older.

I think the bigger thing though is that this guy gives us a chip and a chair at a frontline starter, and the loss of Span really does not harm the team's future plans too much. Span was a likable guy and a good ballplayer, but he had other limitations, and we're lucky that he was even tradable given his prior concussion issues (and other little injuries).

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:32 PM
You realize that prior to 2012 he had exactly 0 pitches thrown for a major league organization right? How is "nothing he did" in 2012 worthy of ranking him higher? He had a very successful 2012 IMO and it isn't all about k rate (even though a 9.7 k/9 is in fact pretty good, especially when he has a respectable BB rate, a great WHIP and a solid GB rate of about 55%)

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just think his 2012 bumps his value up quite a bit.

In my mind, a 22-year-old college pitcher SHOULD dominate Low A, and probably should dominate High A. He certainly didn't do the latter, with a K rate in the 7s, albeit in 39 innings. Now, maybe he was tired or something, I don't know. I'm not saying he hurt his value. I just don't think he necessarily helped it.

If we are going to play the short sample size game in 39 IP in high A, he did also have a 1.026 WHIP and a 2.31. I guess that might not meet your definition of "dominate" but most would say that a 2.31 ERA and 1.026 WHIP are pretty damn good.

It almost sounds like you are looking for a reason to not like this trade so people can continue the bashing on Terry Ryan.

Boom Boom
11-29-2012, 04:32 PM
I'm really quite surprised that this is a one for one deal. Granted Meyer has oustanding upside, but also a high potential for failure having not pitched above the 'A' level. I would have expected another piece to come the Twins way in a deal like this. At least it should free up some cash to help add a short-term solution or two in the starting rotation.

This is my thought as well. Getting one pitcher for Span, one who's probably 2 years away at least, seems to be a bigger gamble than I'd like. I might have taken a lower-ceiling pitcher who was closer to the majors and maybe a fringy infielder thrown in. So it seems that either TR and his scouts really like Meyer, or there just wasn't that much trade interest in Span.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:34 PM
Alex Myers the name James Shields gives himself when he wears his high heels? Otherwise, reality strikes again. In a good way I might add - a solid prospect that slots to be coming to the majors about the same time as our best young talent? Sounds like the right kind of trade to me. Now to see if it pans out.

I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury)

When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

Highabove
11-29-2012, 04:34 PM
Nat's fans must be delighted today.

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 04:36 PM
Hard to say, but a low A guy not a big name prospect seems like a low return for an everyday starting center fielder. I will have to do some research before forming an opinion. This does lower the payroll...maybe they will spend some money on a pitcher now.....I would like to see Hicks up, and not have to watch Parmalee field.

gunnarthor
11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
One other thing to keep in mind was that, after coming back from injury, Span had a .300 OBP to end the year. It was a small sample size but maybe the Twins were concerned with his injuries and just decided to move before rumors started going out.

StormJH1
11-29-2012, 04:38 PM
In my mind, a 22-year-old college pitcher SHOULD dominate Low A, and probably should dominate High A. He certainly didn't do the latter, with a K rate in the 7s, albeit in 39 innings. Now, maybe he was tired or something, I don't know. I'm not saying he hurt his value. I just don't think he necessarily helped it.

Ehhh, I dunno. It was 7 games at High-A, is that really enough of a track record? Some pitchers would never post a 10.7 K/9 rate at ANY level, but that's what Meyer did at Low A. No, I don't think the guy is Gerrit Cole, but until he pitches bad at any level, I'm not even sure what the cause for concern is.

We were not going to get an elite pitching prospect for an oft-injured CF who is only an above-average defender, has no power, and is actually a terrible baserunner for how fast he is. Obviously, the odds are against Meyer being a quality MLB'er, as they are with any prospect, but given that we don't seem to be able to stockpile these guys in any other way, I like it. Also frees up a little more money to stock the rotation for next year.

Winston Smith
11-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Remember that Span is no sure thing. There is real health history with him that I'm sure played into how much he was worth.

minn55441
11-29-2012, 04:41 PM
No inside knowledge of how all of this took place, but I would think that during the organizational meetings, they looked at the top 20 minor league pitchers throughout all of baseball and were looking to get one of them in a trade. Hopefully this guy was graded out as being pretty high on their list. I'm sure there were guys with more minor league innings on the list they were working off of, but as in most situations not all of them were available through a trade.

I wonder how much insight we will get into the scouting and trade negotiations that lead up to this transaction. Knowing the Twins and TR, probably not much.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:41 PM
Hard to say, but a low A guy not a big name prospect seems like a low return for an everyday starting center fielder. I will have to do some research before forming an opinion. This does lower the payroll...maybe they will spend some money on a pitcher now.....I would like to see Hicks up, and not have to watch Parmalee field.
"low A guy" isn't an accurate description.
He was in high A by the end of his first pro year, and was drafted in the first round in the most talent rich draft in the past 20-25 years. This isn't some scrub who was unknown by most. He should crack quite a few top 100 lists heading into next year, I would guess at least 3 or 4 of the MiLB.com, Baseball America, Fangraphs, ESPN, BP etc

TheLeviathan
11-29-2012, 04:41 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury)

When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

I don't know what he'll be, I like the tone of the move. They aren't going to take a lesser talent just because it is more major league ready - they took a guy that projects to be here in about 2015.

What I find funny is how far of a cry this is from Span for Shields. We had some rather adamant posters around here about Span's value.

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 04:42 PM
.

It almost sounds like you are looking for a reason to not like this trade so people can continue the bashing on Terry Ryan.

I think it's just the opposite. I'm giving TR the benefit of the doubt. He's certainly earned it on trades like this in that past. Bartlett, Liriano, Casilla, etc.

I'm just saying that I think anyone who looks at the national ranking of Meyer is going to be disappointed. I don't see him being a top 50 guy. I'm not sure he will be a top 100 guy. I could be wrong. Like I said, this isn't my area of expertise.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what he's ranked. It matter what he does, and in that, I trust Ryan and Twins scouting. But I'm a little surprised they couldn't have gotten say an additional player that they also liked. (Of course, maybe they were offered a higher ranked players, but not players that they liked as much.)

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:46 PM
One other thing to keep in mind was that, after coming back from injury, Span had a .300 OBP to end the year. It was a small sample size but maybe the Twins were concerned with his injuries and just decided to move before rumors started going out.

Its a good point. Also, not to beat a dead horse, but after posting a .800 + OPS in his first two years, Span didn't reach .680 in his next two, and posted a good but not great 105 OPS+ in 2012. Prior to Revere joining the OF, Span rated as more of an above average CF then a "great"

As far as speed goes, he has 23 SB the past two years, and probably at least 10 pick offs, at some point he simply isn't an asset on the basepaths when that is the case.

Is he a damn solid player? Yes
Are the Twins selling him at what will probably be his high point? Yes
Is he a great player without question marks? no

I think a high upside top 100 prospect who is a SP is a fine and fair price. Hell there is about an 80% chance we get more out of Meyer then we did for the whole Santana haul :)

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 04:46 PM
Like I said alot of people over valued Span, and this was probably the best offer the Twins received. So Span didnt have much trade value. The Span for Shields thing was ridiculous. I like this trade though. We obviously are going to be terrible again. People saying we got rid of more salary maybe we can go out and spend some money....newsflash....Twins just might be in salary dump mode right now.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:49 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury)

When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

I don't know what he'll be, I like the tone of the move. They aren't going to take a lesser talent just because it is more major league ready - they took a guy that projects to be here in about 2015.

What I find funny is how far of a cry this is from Span for Shields. We had some rather adamant posters around here about Span's value.

I was on the James Shields boat, but even I knew it would take more then Span to land him, I believe I said Span+Rosario?
At least with a guy like Meyers you potentially get a half dozen or so years of mostly cheap team control. Shields would have been most likely only a two year potential fix (but a very good one at that)

I disagree on 2015 as well, I don't see any reason why he can't be ready sometime in 2014. From what I read he should be able to move from A+ into AA/AAA pretty quickly.

Buddy14
11-29-2012, 04:50 PM
The real question remains to be answered. How will the Twins go about turning this guy into a soft tossing pitch to contact guy?

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 04:51 PM
KLAW had him number 3 in Washington going into the year, at work so cannot look more for more recent. Today in his chat he said he thought Span was worth a "mid rotation starter".

CC7
11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
good move, gives us one one of the better farm systems in the mlb

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
KLAW had him number 3 in Washington going into the year, at work so cannot look more for more recent. Today in his chat he said he thought Span was worth a "mid rotation starter".

So Klaw was about right in projecting Spans value.

powrwrap
11-29-2012, 04:57 PM
I like this trade <crosses fingers> Hard-throwing starting pitcher with high K rate. Man, the Nats must really like Span having previously been rumored to be interested in him in 2011 as well. I wonder if this is the first guy in the Nats system the Twins asked for? If not, I'd like to know who it was...

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 04:58 PM
As I said early in the off-season, they should deal Span for a young guy with a high ceiling. I will miss him, as I like to watch him play. Let's hope the scouts are right....and that they use the money saved to sign two legit pitchers.

The Greatest Poster Alive
11-29-2012, 05:01 PM
This is a good move. As some of you have seen I am one of Span's biggest supporters, as well as one of Revere's biggest detractors. Also, on principle I was opposed to trading Span for the sake of selling high, I believed that unless we were given a fair offer Span is the type of player you hold.

All that considered I think the Twins got a fair return for Span. Meyer projects as a strikeout pitcher, something the Twins are sorely lacking. The Twins did a classic baseball trade, took an organizational strength (Centerfield) and traded it for an organizational weakness (power pitching).

Whether Meyer pans out is up in the air, he's a prospect... plenty of guys more highly regarded than Meyer will do worse than he will, plenty of guys ranked below him will perform better.

I trust the Twins judgement of centerfielders, and I believe that they see something in either Revere (or more likely Hicks) that they can let Span go to strengthen the future of the rotation.

I will miss Dspan. Will probably pick up a discount T-shirt with his number on it soon.

MWLFan
11-29-2012, 05:04 PM
Yeah at this moment 2013 looks just as bad as 2011-2012. But it does give you a chance to dream of a rotation of Meyers, Barrios, Gibson, Diamond and maybe Hendricks or someone else in 2015.

Having Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Barrios all arrive around the same time should be exciting. With Hicks and Parmalee already in the majors that is youth movement with some depth. Now some will flame out and others will probably rise up and join this group, but this has the opportunity to be a strong core going forward. Some holes out there still that will need to be filled, but it sure looks better then it did last December.

SirLoin
11-29-2012, 05:09 PM
If the Twins are smart, they'll have Alex Meyer undergo Tommy John surgery tonight...

cmathewson
11-29-2012, 05:12 PM
This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

Top 50 prospects are all B's or better.

snepp
11-29-2012, 05:19 PM
If the Twins are smart, they'll have Alex Meyer undergo Tommy John surgery tonight...

Not before they completely breakdown his mechanics in order to "fix" him.

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 05:22 PM
Fwiw, Sickels ranked Meyer 28th overall pitcher in his preliminary list this year, so #50-65 overall seems about right:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/10/8/3474586/preliminary-top-50-pitching-prospects-list-for-2013

Knotholemike
11-29-2012, 05:27 PM
Now the Twins only have about $70M in obligations for 2013, and Blackburn, Span and Morneau represent another $27M in obligations gone after next year. Although Meyers fills a glaring hole in the upper levels of the farm system he's probably not likely to be ready to join the rotation until 2015. I actually like this move for the Nationals much better than Atlanta's signing of BJ Upton. The Nationals have sluggers but really needed a quality lead-off man and center fielder. They get that in Span. But, I'm gonna miss the skinny version of Darryl from the Office patrol center at Target field.

drivlikejehu
11-29-2012, 05:28 PM
Span is a very solid player at a premium position. This is definitely not a great return on paper. A 1-for-1 trade for an MLB-ready guy is one thing, but this is someone who hasn't pitched above A-ball. The Twins need guys like Meyer in their system but Span was one of the few assets they had and one interesting but flawed prospect isn't good enough.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-29-2012, 05:33 PM
Currently fighting back tears right now...oh no here they come. Good luck to my once favorite Twin and new favorite former Twin. Pretty good deal both ways, but I wish we could have added some marginal prospects to that package. Nationals just got a fantastic player and their lineup got so much better.

h2oface
11-29-2012, 05:36 PM
i just don't get the mentality of trading a major league good centerfielder with a great value contract for someone who may never make it to the bigs at all. span should have been traded for a proven pitcher, and one that can help now, not "maybe" in a few years. what a waste of trading chip. and still no pitching for the twins 2013 season.

rickyriolo
11-29-2012, 05:36 PM
i don't like the "return" for span either.....1 A-ball pitcher for a good major league CF/Lead-off hitter....Geez, stop trading with Washington. Rizzo has our number. Maybe Washington will re-sign Capps and trade him back to us...

The Greatest Poster Alive
11-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Currently fighting back tears right now...oh no here they come. Good luck to my once favorite Twin and new favorite former Twin. Pretty good deal both ways, but I wish we could have added some marginal prospects to that package. Nationals just got a fantastic player and their lineup got so much better.

would a few scrap heap relievers/MIF'ers really have changed your perseption of the trade? This organization is LOADED with scrap heap reclamation prospects. Twins need top end talent... not longshot prospects

Riverbrian
11-29-2012, 05:41 PM
Where is Seth?

I want to read what Seth has to say about this trade!

I'm happy... I like what I've read... Hopefully I'll be happy with what I eventually see. Was hoping for an arm that we would see this year and maybe we will. He came out of College so he was 22 in his first year of pro ball. If you consider that there isn't much competition between him and the majors in our system... He could move thru AA/AAA fairly quick... Even for the Twins.

It all depends on that Fastball/Slider Combo of his. If he hangs some zero's and produces some K's. What would prevent him from moving up by the end of the year?

I'm happy but I'll wait to hear what Seth says.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 05:44 PM
i just don't get the mentality of trading a major league good centerfielder with a great value contract for someone who may never make it to the bigs at all. span should have been traded for a proven pitcher, and one that can help now, not "maybe" in a few years. what a waste of trading chip. and still no pitching for the twins 2013 season.
Please name these proven pitchers teams were lining up to give away

darin617
11-29-2012, 05:49 PM
I guess this is the right direction.

How many years before Meyer gets a September call-up?

ETA 2015 or so for MN

darin617
11-29-2012, 05:52 PM
This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

Not to rip him but he may be ranked high in their organization because of the Gio Gonzalez trade that took some good arms to acquire him.

The Greatest Poster Alive
11-29-2012, 05:53 PM
may have been said already, but Meyer was drafted about 8 spots ahead of the Twins' pick in the 2011 draft... Wonder if the Twins were hoping he'd drop to them.

kab21
11-29-2012, 05:58 PM
Of course it would have been nice to get a little more but this is exactly the type of move the Twins need to make to fix the franchise long term. Perhaps Meyer is a bust but you need a lot of good arms in your system to produce good starters. This also gives the Twins a little more room to sign FA's this winter.

I think people also need to be realistic about how difficult it is for two teams to exactly match up with needs. The Twins got a borderline top 25 pitching prospect and very few teams are willing to give this up. Very few teams also need a CF'er.

h2oface
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
i just don't get the mentality of trading a major league good centerfielder with a great value contract for someone who may never make it to the bigs at all. span should have been traded for a proven pitcher, and one that can help now, not "maybe" in a few years. what a waste of trading chip. and still no pitching for the twins 2013 season.
Please name these proven pitchers teams were lining up to give away

all anybody does here is guess. how am i supposed to "know" that? how are you? that question can only be answered by the ones privy to the conversations. apparently some teams were lining up for a proven centerfielder, eh? so the twins are the ones that give it away? what's the difference? the teams that always are building for the future, are always building for the future. rarely does that envisioned future arrive. personally, i never like a deal that is a proven for a best guess. best guesses litter the minor league rosters. and that is what this is. span is not a guess. i just don't like it. not at all. and oakland already got the nat's best young arms last year.

kab21
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
Not to rip him but he may be ranked high in their organization because of the Gio Gonzalez trade that took some good arms to acquire him.

He's a borderline top 50 prospect so this is a pretty weak Devil's Advocate position.

darin617
11-29-2012, 06:02 PM
Deleted.

jokin
11-29-2012, 06:06 PM
Terry Ryan and PPMPPPP

In the category of "Payroll Paring Moves of Proven Players at Premium Positions", Ryan definitely has Smith beaten and deserves some credit. Hardy for Hoey ranks near an all-time low in Twins trading annals. Span for Meyer looks somewhat better, on paper anyways.

Let's look at some comparable numbers:

Jim Hoey 6'6"/205#s
Hoey combined numbers at age 23 playing at 3 levels (A/A+/AA):

IP 51/ERA 2.28/WHIP 1.11/K^9 12.9/BB^9 3.2

Alex Meyer 6'9"/220#s
Meyer combined numbers at age 22 at 2 levels (A/A+):

IP 129/ERA 2.86/WHIP 1.10/K^9 9.7/BB^9 3.1

Obviously, Meyer achieved the bulk of his numbers as a starter, so the comp is less than exact, but still... both pitchers come advertised with major mechanics issues.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-29-2012, 06:07 PM
would a few scrap heap relievers/MIF'ers really have changed your perseption of the trade? This organization is LOADED with scrap heap reclamation prospects. Twins need top end talent... not longshot prospects

Well not really, it just would have made it look better. I don't like straight up trades and I think it's important to squeeze out every last bit of value you can get.

Meyer has a ton of upside, but being age 23 in A ball doesn't impress me.

Bark's Lounge
11-29-2012, 06:09 PM
There were not going to be any miracle returns in a Span trade. Did I expect a trade like this, probably not. Am I disappointed in the trade, not really. Who knows, this guy could be a #1 or #2 starter in 4-5 years, he could also be pitching in Independent Ball or working for a construction company in that same time frame.

I am however very happy for Denard Span. He is leaving a severely crippled franchise and heading to a team that has everything going for it. My guess is that Span flourishes in his new environment and has great team and personal successes.

Viva Denard Span!!!

Roaddog
11-29-2012, 06:10 PM
I honestly think this was the best he could do. I have more faith in Ryan making these kind of deals as opposed to trading for MLB talent

lee_the_twins_fan
11-29-2012, 06:11 PM
This feels a lot like when you know your car payment is due, but you have to get gas, and you cannot afford both. The Twins went the car payment route – giving up a good player for the potential of a top-of-the-line starter down the road. It won't help them in the immediate future, but it may help later.

On the other hand, I checked and Meyers is not on the Twins 40-man roster. As it's only his second year, he doesn't have to be. So the Twins now have two slots open on their 40-man roster, for the Winter meetings. Can we SHOUT trades or Rule 5 Drafts?

Meyers was in high A ball. If he starts in AA this spring, and does real well, he could always be a mid-year call-up. It's a real long shot, but a possibility.

Actually, I hope the Twins don't trade Willingham. he is built for Target Field. And as far as the outfield goes, I think Hicks will go north with the Twins this spring, and may be their starting left fielder.

If the Twins trade anyone else among their top players, I see Morneau going. I would hate that almost as much as Willingham leaving. Mauer is not going anywhere.

I would actually rather they trade Parmelee or Plouffe instead of Morneau. Give Morneau one more year with Mauer with the Twins.

rico7961
11-29-2012, 06:12 PM
Wow. An A-ball pitcher for Span. I hope the fans respond and stay away in droves for our tax-payer funded stadium. The Pohlad's are really shrewd businessmen and look at the money they are making. To bad we won't have much of a baseball team to watch for year's to come.

nicksaviking
11-29-2012, 06:15 PM
I like Myers, in fact I thought he'd be off limits as the Nats recently dealt most of their pitching talent. That being said, the reports were that Ryan was asking too much for Span, though no one had the courage to say what the demand was.

I don't think the Twins fleeced the Nats on this deal,so the question is, were the people saying that Ryan was asking too much undervaluing Span, or did Ryan come down off of his price overnight.

rico7961
11-29-2012, 06:20 PM
1. Sano
2. Buxton
3. Hicks
4. Meyer
5. Arcia
6. Gibson
7. Rosario

Not a bad farm system.

Only 1 in 7 makes a major league impact. Where does that leave us?

The Greatest Poster Alive
11-29-2012, 06:22 PM
I would actually rather they trade Parmelee or Plouffe instead of Morneau. Give Morneau one more year with Mauer with the Twins.

I don't see any trade market for Parmalee or Plouffe. what do you think the Twins could get in return?

rickyriolo
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
i believe that the fans will stay away from Target Field next year, as we all saw that late in the season this year....are the Twins looking to compete in year 2105?? because we will stink again in 2013..Thank you Astros for joining the American league next year, the Twins will not finish with the worst record for 3 straight years now

The Greatest Poster Alive
11-29-2012, 06:27 PM
1. Sano
2. Buxton
3. Hicks
4. Meyer
5. Arcia
6. Gibson
7. Rosario

Not a bad farm system.

Only 1 in 7 makes a major league impact. Where does that leave us?

as ****ed as any team that has that low of a minor league success rate.

twinstalker
11-29-2012, 06:29 PM
Geez, John, Meyer is anything but a C prospect. He's the guy I was hoping we'd go for if we couldn't figure out how to pull Minor for Span. He's a B prospect, maybe a B+, according to Sickels, I'm sure. I'm disappointed the Twins didn't get more, but if they couldn't get more out of the Nats, this is a guy they couldn't walk away from. He starts at A+ and moves to AA this year.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-29-2012, 06:34 PM
Probably B-

Seth Stohs
11-29-2012, 06:43 PM
Where is Seth?

I want to read what Seth has to say about this trade!

First and Foremost, I really like Span. Terrific player and a better person. However, I am often guilty, like many of us, for over-valuing our Players and Prospects and what we can get for them. For me, Span was worth a high-ceiling pitching prospect like Meyer, although I hoped they could get a couple of C-level prospects with Meyer.But, my assumption was that if the Twins really wanted a major-league ready starter for Span, it would have been more like a #4 or #5 type of starter. So, there is risk with Meyer since he's only got one year of time. There is risk because he hasn't seen AA yet. We can look at his numbers and say they're pretty solid. But Meyer is all about projectability, not about stats at this point. Guys that tall often take a little bit longer to develop, especially control, because for whatever reason, it's more difficult to find a consistent release point. After Gibson's first full season, he was up in AAA. Meyer got to Hi-A (which is where Gibson started). That speaks to polish. Gibson is polished. But when it comes to upside, Meyer's is certainly higher due to the extra mph. We'll see what happens ,but I'm excited that TR didn't just take MLB ready guys. Instead he got a high-upside potential guy.

jun
11-29-2012, 06:44 PM
Alex Myers the name James Shields gives himself when he wears his high heels? Otherwise, reality strikes again. In a good way I might add - a solid prospect that slots to be coming to the majors about the same time as our best young talent? Sounds like the right kind of trade to me. Now to see if it pans out.

I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury)

When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

Not long ago, remember Jim Hoey? I wonder where Mr Hoey is now. I hope the Twins scouts did their homework this time, I would not say trading traditional leadoff guy and a very good center fielder for a power pitcher with high risk is a good move. After all Span is our best trading chip, he is cheap and plays good defense. Morneau is expensive. Hamilton cannot play defense. I am disappoined!Span is irreplacable, Revere has no arm, look at his OBP, anyone who thinks Revere can replace Span must be daydreaming.

jokin
11-29-2012, 06:45 PM
Where is Seth?

I want to read what Seth has to say about this trade!

First and Foremost, I really like Span. Terrific player and a better person. However, I am often guilty, like many of us, for over-valuing our Players and Prospects and what we can get for them. For me, Span was worth a high-ceiling pitching prospect like White, although I hoped they could get a couple of C-level prospects with White.But, my assumption was that if the Twins really wanted a major-league ready starter for Span, it would have been more like a #4 or #5 type of starter. So, there is risk with White since he's only got one year of time. There is risk because he hasn't seen AA yet. We can look at his numbers and say they're pretty solid. But White is all about projectability, not about stats at this point. Guys that tall often take a little bit longer to develop, especially control, because for whatever reason, it's more difficult to find a consistent release point. After Gibson's first full season, he was up in AAA. White got to Hi-A (which is where Gibson started). That speaks to polish. Gibson is polished. But when it comes to upside, White's is certainly higher due to the extra mph. We'll see what happens ,but I'm excited that TR didn't just take MLB ready guys. Instead he got a high-upside potential guy.

"White"?

twinstalker
11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
I had hoped he wouldn't draw any attention prior to my draft that starts this weekend. Meyer was in my sights, and now I suppose he's in everyone else's, too.

diehardtwinsfan
11-29-2012, 06:57 PM
If true, you have to like this move. The market on Denard was unfortunately weak (and for no good reason, really). Receiving a fireballer like Meyer is a huge get.

This looks better than going to the Reds for Cingrani... I like it. A lot...

rico7961
11-29-2012, 06:58 PM
Read Dave Cameron's headline at FANGRAPHS. Nuff said.

Kwak
11-29-2012, 06:59 PM
This is called "rolling the dice", but then so is the draft. I believe that this trade indicates a change in philosophy from PtoC. Likely he will look like an early Garza with FBs that often beget foul balls rather than outs. He will need to improve his off-speed stuff, but that is generally said of most pitchers at his level. Mechanics? Unless you have actually seen him pitch (ex. Liriano) I would take someone else's opinion with a grain of salt. Blaming mechanics for a "gopher ball"?--isn't that the expected reason for said "cookie" anyway? It does appear as if 2013 may have fewer wins than 2013 but many have posted that: a) Willingham had a career year (so sell high!); b) Mauer wasn't injured; c) the bullpen was basically solid and d) Morneau had a much more productive year than 2011. Unless there is a substanial influx of major league talent by April we should expect "a step back".
Let's give this Myers guy a chance before we "Hoey" him.

diehardtwinsfan
11-29-2012, 07:00 PM
Not to get all "Deadspin" on you Dave, but +1. How is a team's #2/#3 prospect be considered a "C" prospect???

They play for Chicago or Detroit?

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:02 PM
Inevitable yes, but this is what I was afraid of, the inevitable reprecussions from the media:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/


Seth, per your edit:

The following is portions of 3 paragraphs from the 10 paragraph article. If this is too much copy, it can be edited again, but these are the cogent points to the ongoing debate:


Nationals Steal Denard Span from Twins

by David Cameron

"To be honest, I’m a bit surprised at the price at which Minnesota was willing to sell Span off. I get that they’re rebuilding and they feel like Ben Revere (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4712&position=OF) can handle center field in the short term, but Span is the kind of player they could have kept as they rebuilt..... and the Twins sold him off for an A-ball pitching prospect who may end up in relief.

I don’t mean to downplay Meyer’s value as a prospect, as any 6’9 kid who throws in the upper 90s and throws a wipeout slider is a legitimately interesting return, but no one is yet certain that he’s going to stick in the rotation long term. He had a successful debut season between the South Atlantic and Carolina Leagues, but he was a 22-year-old college arm facing batters with significantly less experience. He’s yet to get to Double-A, and the questions about his mechanics haven’t yet been entirely answered. There’s some real upside here, but there’s also a chance that the command regresses and he ends up as a closer rather than a starter.

Meyer’s a bit of a lottery ticket. Legitimate upside, legitimate concerns about his future role, and at least another year of development before he’s ready to contribute in Minnesota. Meyer’s a Top 100 prospect, and if you think he’ll stick as a starter, probably a Top 50 guy. The Twins got a real talent back in return for Span, but it’s a talent with too many question marks to be the piece they’re getting back in return for a three win player under team control at a fraction of his market price. "

twinstalker
11-29-2012, 07:02 PM
Here's why Meyer is a much better return than Mike Leake. Mike Leake has no more upside than what he's shown, and if Meyer doesn't pan out, you can find FAs who are basically as good as Leake. Top prospects for average guys when you're a losing team is absolutely the most cost-efficient and talent-optimal way to do business. And I really dislike Terry Ryan.

puckett1992
11-29-2012, 07:05 PM
This is my first post at the site after perusing the many articles over the last several months. This is a great site for Twins fans and I like getting the Twins Centric articles away from the Strib web site. So, props to the braintrust of the site that launched it and continue to maintain it.

I found the Fangraphs title of "Nationals Steal Denard Span from Twins" by Dave Cameron to be funny, if not ridiculous. Obviously, the success of this trade from the Twins' perspective will be determined in 2014, 2015, and beyond. Meyer could be a complete bust or be leading the Twins rotation within the next few years. The Nationals benefit from the trade immediately and Span will be a key asset towards their quest for a World Series appearance and maybe championship. Good for Span to get this opportunity even though I'm sure he's torn about leaving the Twins.

I personally like the trade because it addresses a need for young pitching while dealing from a position of strength, even thought the pitching won't contribute to the major league team in 2013. To me, this doesn't mean the Twins are necessarily rebuilding next year. Span can be replaced by Revere to some extent and there are other options in the outfield. If Revere cannot handle the job offensively over an entire full season, then Hicks and others may be able to push him.

Let's see what happens during the Winter Meetings and throughout December and January. If adequate starting pitchers are signed or traded for, then there is hope for next year without a miracle like the Orioles experienced in 2012. If Ryan deals away Willingham and/or Morneau for lower tier MLB starting pitchers or A-level prospects, then it's safe to assume they're rebuilding. Based on comments from Ryan on 1500espn on Monday and earlier in the offseason, he doesn't want to enter a prolonged rebuilding operation, so I would assume other moves are coming. Other than just possibly re-signing Liriano.

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:07 PM
This is called "rolling the dice", but then so is the draft. I believe that this trade indicates a change in philosophy from PtoC. Likely he will look like an early Garza with FBs that often beget foul balls rather than outs. He will need to improve his off-speed stuff, but that is generally said of most pitchers at his level. Mechanics? Unless you have actually seen him pitch (ex. Liriano) I would take someone else's opinion with a grain of salt. Blaming mechanics for a "gopher ball"?--isn't that the expected reason for said "cookie" anyway? It does appear as if 2013 may have fewer wins than 2013 but many have posted that: a) Willingham had a career year (so sell high!); b) Mauer wasn't injured; c) the bullpen was basically solid and d) Morneau had a much more productive year than 2011. Unless there is a substanial influx of major league talent by April we should expect "a step back".
Let's give this Myers guy a chance before we "Hoey" him.


Mechanics? This guy's release point covers all points of the map in the Lower 48 States. Here you go:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/washington-nationals-pitching-prospect-alex-meyer-scouting-report-video/

It has become painfully clear that this is a high-risk/high-reward/potential crashing downside trade that desperate clubs have to make if they want to get back in the game. That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Seth Stohs
11-29-2012, 07:17 PM
Read Dave Cameron's headline at FANGRAPHS. Nuff said.

Then read Keith Law's thoughts.

There can and will be lots of opinions about the deal. Reality is no one will know if it's a good idea for 5 years.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 07:17 PM
Deleted.

kab21
11-29-2012, 07:17 PM
"White"?

Seth mixed up his Alex's when typing fast.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 07:18 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 07:19 PM
So what's new Twins get's ripped off agin!

Seth Stohs
11-29-2012, 07:23 PM
"White"?

Seth mixed up his Alex's when typing fast.

Correct... I blame the Big Bang Theory too.

E. Andrew
11-29-2012, 07:24 PM
Salary dump, Twins fans understand. Start over on the cheap, roll the dice and wait for Yahtzee, like in '82 and '02.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 07:25 PM
This pops in my head after watching the video about taming meyer....
Maybe after the Nats had Mike Mcdougal for awhile, and saw this guy, they ran!!!! lol
As a Twins fan, I always loved it when Mcdougal came in to save it for the Royals. He never, ever, ever got
himself really figured out.

:th_alc:

Riverbrian
11-29-2012, 07:25 PM
Laughing out loud... If anyone has any doubt about how difficult it is to be a GM in the court of public opinion. Read this thread and then read almost any thread on this website.

I'm sure everyone realizes that we have disagreements between multiple posters on just about every topic.

Now imagine trying to be that GM who everyone is going to love. No matter what he decides to do. Someone is guarenteed to piss all over it.

If anyone hates Terry Ryan... That's OK I Guess... But please understand that if you were the GM... Someone is going to hate you to.

You can't please everyone.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 07:26 PM
wikipedia says Mcdougal could hit 103mph.

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:27 PM
Wow, taking things a little too personally, or what?

You are well aware that you are in violation of poster decorum for your perjoratives, right?

I never said "nobody likes it". I merely quoted one talking head second-guessing the trade, without editorial comment, and you jump all over me because we have a slight disagreement ( I actually will remain optimistic about Meyer until proven different).

Regarding Hoey, you didn't read my whole post, a post in which I clearly stated that Ryan made out better than Smith when trading a proven up-the-middle position player for a minor league hard-throwing pitcher.

I also published the comps at the same age and level of development, there was no attempt at correlation on the current state of each player and I clearly pointed out the Meyers numbers were accomplished as a Starting Pitcher.

Time for a cleansing breath.

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:31 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

shs_59
11-29-2012, 07:39 PM
I love the trade

Meyer is a B+ guy for me.

Gibson and Berrios are only B's

I'd have Meyer right behind Sano and Buxton #3 in our system.

what bugs me a bit, is the fact we only got just 1 prospect for DENARD SPAN one of the better lead-off hitting CF's in BASEBALL. and his team friendly contract.

I would of liked to have Sammy Solis or Rick Hague or Jeff Kobernus in this deal as well. But its more of a quibble.

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:45 PM
I love the trade

Meyer is a B+ guy for me.

Gibson and Berrios are only B's

I'd have Meyer right behind Sano and Buxton #3 in our system.

what bugs me a bit, is the fact we only got just 1 prospect for DENARD SPAN one of the better lead-off hitting CF's in BASEBALL. and his team friendly contract.

I would of liked to have Sammy Solis or Rick Hague or Jeff Kobernus in this deal as well. But its more of a quibble.

THIS. You nailed it. I will quibble though, Span's team-friendly contract alone should have been valuable enough to throw in a secondary ML arm or Middle Infield prospect to the deal.

PseudoSABR
11-29-2012, 07:46 PM
Terry Ryan and PPMPPPP

In the category of "Payroll Paring Moves of Proven Players at Premium Positions", Ryan definitely has Smith beaten and deserves some credit. Hardy for Hoey ranks near an all-time low in Twins trading annals. Span for Meyer looks somewhat better, on paper anyways.

Let's look at some comparable numbers:

Jim Hoey 6'6"/205#s
Hoey combined numbers at age 23 playing at 3 levels (A/A+/AA):

IP 51/ERA 2.28/WHIP 1.11/K^9 12.9/BB^9 3.2

Alex Meyer 6'9"/220#s
Meyer combined numbers at age 22 at 2 levels (A/A+):

IP 129/ERA 2.86/WHIP 1.10/K^9 9.7/BB^9 3.1

Obviously, Meyer achieved the bulk of his numbers as a starter, so the comp is less than exact, but still... both pitchers come advertised with major mechanics issues.Totally disingenuous comparison, and yet another reason not to take you seriously.

twinstalker
11-29-2012, 07:48 PM
Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.

TheLeviathan
11-29-2012, 07:49 PM
Based on comments from Ryan on 1500espn on Monday and earlier in the offseason, he doesn't want to enter a prolonged rebuilding operation, so I would assume other moves are coming. Other than just possibly re-signing Liriano.

Ryan's definition of "prolonged" may be a tad different than others. If you shave his last rebuild in half it's still 3-4 years. In the midst of these ridiculous offseason predictions floating around here I've always felt it's better to build around your best nucleus of talent. Mauer is an elite hitter, but he, by himself, is not a nucleus. The group that was around him has fallen apart for a variety of reasons. Clutching to some faint hope of that isn't in the organization's best long-term interests. Ryan is sharp and I think the moves so far this year indicate his conclusion about the direction to take this team. Three years isn't a terribly long rebuild, especially since many of the Twins future nucleus could be seen for extended looks as soon as a year and a half into his tenure.

jokin
11-29-2012, 07:54 PM
Terry Ryan and PPMPPPP

In the category of "Payroll Paring Moves of Proven Players at Premium Positions", Ryan definitely has Smith beaten and deserves some credit. Hardy for Hoey ranks near an all-time low in Twins trading annals. Span for Meyer looks somewhat better, on paper anyways.

Let's look at some comparable numbers:

Jim Hoey 6'6"/205#s
Hoey combined numbers at age 23 playing at 3 levels (A/A+/AA):

IP 51/ERA 2.28/WHIP 1.11/K^9 12.9/BB^9 3.2

Alex Meyer 6'9"/220#s
Meyer combined numbers at age 22 at 2 levels (A/A+):

IP 129/ERA 2.86/WHIP 1.10/K^9 9.7/BB^9 3.1

Obviously, Meyer achieved the bulk of his numbers as a starter, so the comp is less than exact, but still... both pitchers come advertised with major mechanics issues.Totally disingenuous comparison, and yet another reason not to take you seriously.

Elaborate please on what is disingenuous about the comparisons, specifically.

kab21
11-29-2012, 08:00 PM
Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.

I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot.

lightfoot789
11-29-2012, 08:03 PM
Love the Trade. I love the idea of having a solid young team from 2014 thru 2020 with complete control of most of my young contracts. It beats piecing players together every year like the Twins have been doing for recent years. The Brewers built their team with Fielder; Weeks; Hart; Giardo; & Hardy; (young guys) and found gems like Braun in later draft. The Twins can form a very solid team in 2014 with young prospects and continue to build thru free agency because they will have the money to pay top level FA's in 2014; 2015 & 2016. Great Trade & Start to rebuilding Twins organization.

beckmt
11-29-2012, 08:09 PM
I also like the trade. It is a shot, but you win with pitching and the Twins do not have enough. Hope it works out, but room also has to be cleared for the outfielders on the way up. No saying if Hicks or Arcia or others can be better than Span, but this trade is the type the Twins should be making

lightfoot789
11-29-2012, 08:10 PM
The Cardinals are another organization who stays great thru the draft 1st. Twins are getting there. Twins also have some hidden Gems in minors who can become stars (M. Kepler; J. Palanco; N. Roberts; R. Jiminez; A. Walker; T. Harrison; Clement; and all those young pitchers have a chance to be special). Give the change in philosophy a chance.

John Bonnes
11-29-2012, 08:11 PM
Mark Sheldon, who is MLB.com's Reds beat writer (and used to be the Twins) wrote a bit about the trade. Basically, he's surprised that the Reds, who he thinks have arms that are closer to major-league ready, didn't make this move. He opines that the Twins must have really liked Meyer. It was an interesting though. His write-up is here:

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/2012/11/29/span-to-nationals-in-trade/

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 08:13 PM
Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.

I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot.
+1

Also Keith Law knows plenty about sabermetrics.... we aren't exactly talking about Joe Morgan here.
I like Cameron and all, but I don't think he is even close to the end all be all on the subject, he puts a ton of personal bias into the majority of his articles, which is fine, but again like Kab says he is a over rated quite a bit.

Teddy
11-29-2012, 08:20 PM
Wikipedia, mikeee? Really? Yeah, because that's such a bastion of gospel truth.

birdwatcher
11-29-2012, 08:23 PM
Sickels ranked Meyer #28 among his pitching prospects in 2012. Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland did not have a single name on the list of 50 prospects. The only AL West prospect on his list is KC's Jake Odorizzi, rated slightly higher than Meyer.

spycake
11-29-2012, 08:25 PM
You can see Meyer's college stats here:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=alex-meyer-3

His previous high innings total was 101, so perhaps he tired later this season in high-A. He was "shut down" at 129 innings, Strasburg-style. I like that he's already made progress with control -- hopefully the Twins can keep his K rate up.

Here's a cool article about him and his pitches:

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120831&content_id=37671602&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

jokin
11-29-2012, 08:25 PM
[QUOTE=jokin;65602]Inevitable yes, but this is what I was afraid of, the inevitable reprecussions from the media:

. "

NoCryingInBaseball
11-29-2012, 08:26 PM
I like the trade, but it seems that the Twins are still short about three pitchers for the starting rotation. I assume the Twins will be in the market for a decent Free Agent and a 3rd tier type but the names we hear in rumors are scary. Liriano and Pavano? Say it ain’t so!

I am now beginning to wonder if Terry Ryan might be planning another trade and dump most of Morneau’s salary this season for a starter. That would mean Parmelee would play 1st and one of the two guys (Oswaldo Arcia and Aaron Hicks) that are expected to see major league action this year would earn a starting role in the outfield.
Looks like next week will be interesting!

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 08:29 PM
Obviously this move was made with 2014+ in mind, and that is fine, especially since we took upside over "sure thing". But looking further into it, does this really hurt the Twins that much in 2013?

Span no doubt is a good player, who the Twins will miss but his production it appears is entirely replaceable. On the defensive side of things, Revere is at least as good of an overall defensive player as Span at CF and there is a very good chance that he has significantly better range in the position (quite possibly top 2 or 3 in all of baseball) Obviously his arm is garbage, but in CF I think it is "hidden" a bit and his range more then makes up for it.

Span certainly had a solid bat, but I don't think we are going to miss it as much as people think. Even with his best season in 3 years Span still posted the 6th best OPS on the team behind Willingham, Mauer, Doumit, Morneau, and Plouffe. I think there is a very good chance all 5 post higher then Span again in 2013. Parmelee should be able to post a higher OPS as well, if he didn't I would be pretty disappointed/surprised. Some may argue that OPS isn't an end all be all and that since Span was a leadoff hitter OBP mattered more. Span finished 4th on the team behind Mauer, Willingham and Jamey Carroll (which is surprising). In addition he was only 9 points higher then both Morneau and Revere. A healthy Morneau should out produce that in 2013, while I actually think Revere regresses a bit. She you are looking at what would be the 5th best OBP guy on your team having to be replaced. IMO in an offensive standpoint Parmelee should be able to come close to that as well.

In regards to speed, Span had it no doubt, but for every 2 steals he had it seems like he had one pick off. Revere is a better base runner no doubt, but overall the Twins will be hurt a bit on the "speed" category until a guy like Hicks comes up. Good news for the Twins is they didn't exactly run a whole lot anyways.

All this isn't even factoring in that Hicks could very well be up sometime in 2012 and ultimately be a better fielder, hitter (especially in the power category) and runner then Span.

So at the end of the day, while strengthening the team in the mid to long term I don't think it hurts the team much in the short term. Revere in CF is an upgrade defensively and it allows to get Parmelee a shot at playing every day. Additionally it makes Hicks and Arcia's path to the majors much easier.

Pretty solid move and great timing by Ryan IMO as Spans value was unlikely to get any higher.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Keith Law is more respected than Dave Cameron? I think that is probably true among people who don't understand sabermetrics as well. In the same way Souhan is probably more respected than Gleeman.

I think sabermetrics would say that Dave Cameron is significantly overrated. And this is coming from someone that understands and uses sabermetrics a lot.
+1

Also Keith Law knows plenty about sabermetrics.... we aren't exactly talking about Joe Morgan here.
I like Cameron and all, but I don't think he is even close to the end all be all on the subject, he puts a ton of personal bias into the majority of his articles, which is fine, but again like Kab says he is a over rated quite a bit.

Im surprised KLAW liked the trade from the Twins perspective. Normally he isnt to high on the Twins in general. He definitely is a great scout.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-29-2012, 08:32 PM
Sickels ranked Meyer #28 among his pitching prospects in 2012. Detroit, Chicago, and Cleveland did not have a single name on the list of 50 prospects. The only AL West prospect on his list is KC's Jake Odorizzi, rated slightly higher than Meyer.

Well that is some good news!

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 08:33 PM
I like the trade, but it seems that the Twins are still short about three pitchers for the starting rotation. I assume the Twins will be in the market for a decent Free Agent and a 3rd tier type but the names we hear in rumors are scary. Liriano and Pavano? Say it ain’t so!

I am now beginning to wonder if Terry Ryan might be planning another trade and dump most of Morneau’s salary this season for a starter. That would mean Parmelee would play 1st and one of the two guys (Oswaldo Arcia and Aaron Hicks) that are expected to see major league action this year would earn a starting role in the outfield.
Looks like next week will be interesting!
Keep in mind its still very early in the off-season, no real 1st or 2nd tier pitchers have even been signed yet, and really there hasn't been a ton of chatter out yet anyways. Has there been any real rumors yet about Grienke, Sanchez, Jackson, Marcum? I don't recall seeing any.

I'd prefer the Twins sign 3 solid pitchers or trade for them this off-season, but even if they get two they still at least look better then last year. It just depends on who the two are of course.

I still think you can at the end of the day count on at least Gibson and Diamond next year, with one of Hendriks/DeDuno/Walters sticking around as a #5 as well.

old nurse
11-29-2012, 08:37 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 08:41 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?

Its not even worth responding to him. I got reprimanded earlier for pointing out his "shenanigans" (After he went and cried to the site owners lol) Clearly the Twins dumping an effective player who was scheduled to make $5 million is "salary dumping" plain and simple meanwhile they hold onto Willingham, Mauer and Morneau who are scheduled to make about 50 million in 2013.

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 08:50 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

Steve Lein
11-29-2012, 08:52 PM
Hate that they had to deal one of my favorite's in Denard Span, but I'm glad he went to a team with colors where I can still get away with wearing my "Let's Get Denarded" T-shirt, and oh, I love the trade for 2 reasons.

1) Twins were never going to spend the money on pitching or deal the prospects that they needed to in order to right the ship in 1 year, and
2) This is the exact type of pitcher (even if it's only "potential" at this point) they need to acquire, one with top of the rotation stuff.

If you wanted pitching that would contribute this year, you weren't going to get a top of the rotation guy for Span. You were going to get a #3 ceiling pitcher. Personally, I think the Twins have plenty of #3-#5 type's already. It would have taken Span+one of their top prospects, and probably another MLB-er to get a #1 or #2, and whatever money they had to pay him.

Meyer has risk, but he's got everything else the Twins currently don't in a pitcher. This is a good thing.

As a final note, I don't think it's out of the question for a 23-year-old pitcher with his stuff to move quickly through the minors if he's on. Let's hope he's on.

ThePuck
11-29-2012, 08:56 PM
2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 08:56 PM
It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!

jokin
11-29-2012, 08:58 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?

This isn't rocket science. The Twins had a full boat of in-their-prime players going into 2011 and went all-in at approximately $114M on the payroll. As we all know, the season ended up in disaster from early on, the Twins publicly profferred, while still in-season, that they were going to significantly cut payroll for 2012, even with a bevy of players still in their prime. Obviously, something happened between Smith and Ownership regarding philosophical and financial differences from Oct 1 to his dismissal in late November. Ryan re-entered the picture and continued the previously publicly announced payroll slashing while making incremental band-aid upgrades to keep the product cosmetically saleable to the the marketing department. Can anyone dispute the fact that the Twins were in a very healthy position financially to maintain their 2011 payroll in 2012 by acquiring one or two legitimate SPs? The Twins did the opposite, by not re-signing any of their FAs, they clearly chose to play a dual game, selling one concept of "fielding a competitive team" to the buying public- while quietly admitting to the press, "off the record", that payroll was going to be cut in 2012 (which happened) and possibly, 2013 (which they have admitted, could very well happen). Thus far, they are holding true to form for their quiet admissions to Lavelle, et al. The last step of the process is moving the remaining high-dollar 2013 expiring contracts now or in-season, or, letting them lapse at season's end. By trading one of your 2 best bargaining chips for a pitcher who likely won't be a significant factor until 2015, even with an appalling need for SP arms in 2013, tells you this is a team in rebuild mode, whether they admit it or not.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:00 PM
It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!
A guy who has a chance to become our best in house pitcher since Matt Garza is "nothing"?

They also added a bit of payroll flexibility and opened up Arcia and Hicks (both of who could be better then Span) paths to the majors.

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 09:01 PM
2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...

Barring any setbacks and expecting a standard progression, Meyer will be in AA this season.

So you expect him to pitch 1 1/2 seasons in Rochester?

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 09:01 PM
It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!

4? Meyers will be up in 3 or less, imo. They also freed up money, that they can now use to sign two legit pitchers, instead of one. Let's see what they do with the money before totally giving up on this year....

diehardtwinsfan
11-29-2012, 09:06 PM
Sickels had him as a B in his 2012 book - FWIW
Yup, and that was prior to a very strong 2012 season with a 9.7 k rate, 1.101 WHIP and 2.86 ERA.

He is a B/borderline B+ prospect at this point who has some nice upside.


Sickles has an article on this here: http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/11/29/3708564/minnesota-twins-trade-denard-span-washington-nationals-alex-meyer

If you are curious, he rates him as a B+, which puts him in the same class as Arcia and Buxton. He thinks Meyer has a higher ceiling than Gibson too. That meas he should be in Sickle's top 50..

Fire Dan Gladden
11-29-2012, 09:08 PM
Obviously this move was made with 2014+ in mind, and that is fine, especially since we took upside over "sure thing". But looking further into it, does this really hurt the Twins that much in 2013?

Span no doubt is a good player, who the Twins will miss but his production it appears is entirely replaceable. On the defensive side of things, Revere is at least as good of an overall defensive player as Span at CF and there is a very good chance that he has significantly better range in the position (quite possibly top 2 or 3 in all of baseball) Obviously his arm is garbage, but in CF I think it is "hidden" a bit and his range more then makes up for it.

Span certainly had a solid bat, but I don't think we are going to miss it as much as people think. Even with his best season in 3 years Span still posted the 6th best OPS on the team behind Willingham, Mauer, Doumit, Morneau, and Plouffe. I think there is a very good chance all 5 post higher then Span again in 2013. Parmelee should be able to post a higher OPS as well, if he didn't I would be pretty disappointed/surprised. Some may argue that OPS isn't an end all be all and that since Span was a leadoff hitter OBP mattered more. Span finished 4th on the team behind Mauer, Willingham and Jamey Carroll (which is surprising). In addition he was only 9 points higher then both Morneau and Revere. A healthy Morneau should out produce that in 2013, while I actually think Revere regresses a bit. She you are looking at what would be the 5th best OBP guy on your team having to be replaced. IMO in an offensive standpoint Parmelee should be able to come close to that as well.

In regards to speed, Span had it no doubt, but for every 2 steals he had it seems like he had one pick off. Revere is a better base runner no doubt, but overall the Twins will be hurt a bit on the "speed" category until a guy like Hicks comes up. Good news for the Twins is they didn't exactly run a whole lot anyways.

All this isn't even factoring in that Hicks could very well be up sometime in 2012 and ultimately be a better fielder, hitter (especially in the power category) and runner then Span.

So at the end of the day, while strengthening the team in the mid to long term I don't think it hurts the team much in the short term. Revere in CF is an upgrade defensively and it allows to get Parmelee a shot at playing every day. Additionally it makes Hicks and Arcia's path to the majors much easier.

Pretty solid move and great timing by Ryan IMO as Spans value was unlikely to get any higher.

A lot of valid points here. Let me add my two cents:

1) I believe a lot of people, both GM's and fans, have underrated Span for a long time. While not exceptional in any one category, Span was above average in many. The ability to be decent in the leadoff spot is not just about numbers. It is about professional at-bats, table setting, and providing quality while leading the team in PA. Span does all of these things. His ability to play CF and low salary make him a wanted asset.

2) Span could easily have been one of the nucleus for the next wave. More prospects burn out than excel. While we hope that the Hicks, Rosario, Buxton, et. al. group comes up and produces, the reality is that only 2-3 of them will have any real impact in the majors. Span is a proven MLB commodity that should still have a number of quality years left.

3) I like the fact the Twins are looking more toward a hopeful 1-2, than another sure 4-5. I think it shows the Twins are willing to take a few risks, something they have been generally averse to in the past. I'm not sure this was exactly how I would have like to see it. I would have like to seen an additional MLB ready #4-5 starter, along with Meyer, to help the team today as well.

4) Why is everybody convinced Parmalee will be productive at a major league level? He has not exactly torn it up for the Twins in the past. I think odds are better Hicks will be out there before him.

This smells of a typical TR move, reminiscent of Pierzynski or Knoblauch. Trading a vet for low minors guys, "knowing" they will help you in the future. While we won't have an answer for a few years, I tend to give TR the benefit of the doubt on these types of moves. Span is the type of player that Twins fan's tend to gravitate to. Hard working, better than average, no public dust ups, by all account a stand up guy. I for one will be sorry to see him go.

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:13 PM
That and it insures the club continues marching towards its inexorable drop to a $65M payroll in 2014, which sadly appears to be the club's prime imperative at this point.

Yeah, that simply isn't true nor will you provide one shred of evidence stating such.

There is no need to provide any more shreds of evidence, it's already ubiquitously abundant, from the Twins own mouths and actions.

Trying not to violate policy here. One trade of a player does not make for a salary dump. No FA signings when there have not yet been any significant FA signings does not mean the Twins are not going to spend any money. So what kind of thought process leads to jokin's statement?

Its not even worth responding to him. I got reprimanded earlier for pointing out his "shenanigans" (After he went and cried to the site owners lol) Clearly the Twins dumping an effective player who was scheduled to make $5 million is "salary dumping" plain and simple meanwhile they hold onto Willingham, Mauer and Morneau who are scheduled to make about 50 million in 2013.

Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

"Cried to the site owners"? Again with the personal attacks, pointing out that you are blatantly violating site policy and adding nothing to the debate, Seriously? "Shenanigans" for making no editorial comment on a post except "here come the inevitable negative reviews" about the trade and merely quoting said national scribe?

Regarding the salary issue, the Twins traded a $5M entity that progresses to $9M in 2015 for someone who won't make the major league minimum for at least 1 or 2 years and puts not one, not two, but now 3 OF out of 4 all virtually making the MLB minimum.

The Twins have hinted that they may cut payroll again in 2013. What is so controversial about considering them at their word.

Would it really be so surprising to you if 2 out of the three 3 high dollar guys you mention are moved now or in-season? It can be argued that this is actually a good business strategy. It certainly doesn't call for your all-out frontal assault on fact-based opinion.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
11-29-2012, 09:14 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen,

2013 will be another season to study the minor league box scores, and leave my transistor radio at home when I go fishing on the walleye opener, May 10, 2013, because the Twins will already be out of it. Here's my dream trip for 2013:
July 5 or 6: Twins at Toronto Blue Jays
July 6 or 7: Pawtucket at Rochester (Twins AAA)
July 8 or 9: Cooperstown Baseball HOF
July 10: East/WestAll Star Game at New Britan, CT (Twins AA)
July 11: Trenton at New Britan (Twins AA)
July 12-14: Twins at New York Yankees
July 15: MLB Home Run Derby, at Citi Field
July 16: MLB All-Star Game, at Citi Field (NY Mets)
658 miles (and another 229 to go see Baltimore, and Span's hometown team, the Washington Nats. and two more teams off the bucket list…) I'm glad for the move, and I will pay for the trip with the money I save by paying no more than $10 to see Twins home games.

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 09:14 PM
Why do they have to free up money for? They just got a new ball park for nothing!

johnnydakota
11-29-2012, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE=Bark's Lounge;65567]There were not going to be any miracle returns in a Span trade. Did I expect a trade like this, probably not. Am I disappointed in the trade, not really. Who knows, this guy could be a #1 or #2 starter in 4-5 years, he could also be pitching in Independent Ball or working for a construction company in that same time frame.

I am however very happy for Denard Span. He is leaving a severely crippled franchise and heading to a team that has everything going for it. My guess is that Span flourishes in his new environment and has great team and personal successes.

Viva Denard Span!!![/QUOThe best post yet , you nailed it .
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:17 PM
assault on fact-based opinion.
:roll::roll::roll:

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:19 PM
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen
Where are people getting this 3 years from? Sickels himself says he could be ready come next season.

People understand the difference between college starters and HS starters right? There is no reason why Meyer shouldn't spend the majority of this season in AA with a shot at AAA towards the end. If he keeps doing what he has been doing he will be with the Twins come June 2014.

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 09:21 PM
They don't NEED to free up money, they just did......this trade is about getting a guy with big upside. If Law and Sickels like the deal, I'll take that for now. He'll start in A ball, imo, and move to AA during the year if he's successful at all. AA and AAA in 2014, maybe even MLB. Now that I've read around on him, I think this is the kind of trade I wanted them to make with Span (assuming they could not trade him and another player for Shields or something).

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:21 PM
assault on fact-based opinion.
:roll::roll::roll:

Again with the personal attack? Please attempt to add substance to the forum and break down what part of my posts in question aren't fact-based opinion.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:26 PM
assault on fact-based opinion.
:roll::roll::roll:

Please attempt to add substance to the forum
I'm digging the irony.

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:29 PM
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen
Where are people getting this 3 years from? Sickels himself says he could be ready come next season.

People understand the difference between college starters and HS starters right? There is no reason why Meyer shouldn't spend the majority of this season in AA with a shot at AAA towards the end. If he keeps doing what he has been doing he will be with the Twins come June 2014.

I hope this is the outcome. Setting a goal for competitiveness in 2014 over 2013 makes the most sense. I hope the negative reviews that Meyers has received are completely wrong and that Ryan knows more about Meyer than Rizzo does.

Legitimate question: Who has the most bankable track record on prospects? Is it Sickels, or someone else?

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:30 PM
assault on fact-based opinion.
:roll::roll::roll:

Please attempt to add substance to the forum
I'm digging the irony.

Ironic that you refuse to debate, but instead attack. That's usually indicative of a losing argument.

diehardtwinsfan
11-29-2012, 09:31 PM
2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...

Barring any setbacks and expecting a standard progression, Meyer will be in AA this season.

So you expect him to pitch 1 1/2 seasons in Rochester?

He had 7 starts in A+. AA is probably pushing it. I'm guessing FTM with a midseason promotion... Perhaps they will rush him a bit given that he was pretty good in those 7 starts.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 09:32 PM
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen
Where are people getting this 3 years from? Sickels himself says he could be ready come next season.

People understand the difference between college starters and HS starters right? There is no reason why Meyer shouldn't spend the majority of this season in AA with a shot at AAA towards the end. If he keeps doing what he has been doing he will be with the Twins come June 2014.

I hope this is the outcome. Setting a goal for competitiveness in 2014 over 2013 makes the most sense. I hope the negative reviews that Meyers has received are completely wrong and that Ryan knows more about Meyer than Rizzo does.

Legitimate question: Who has the most bankable track record on prospects? Is it Sickels, or someone else?

Probably Terry Ryan.

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 09:34 PM
He had 7 starts in A+. AA is probably pushing it. I'm guessing FTM with a midseason promotion... Perhaps they will rush him a bit given that he was pretty good in those 7 starts.

I meant that he'll be in AA at some point in the season, not that he'd start there. I'd wager a start in Ft Myers as well.

Willihammer
11-29-2012, 09:36 PM
At the risk of derailing this thread, and not offering any explanation why, I'd like to just remind everyone what Beane and Rizzo agreed to last year, because it is so ridiculous in comparison.

Gio Gonzalez: 26, 3 years of team control remaining, 9.4 career RA9 wins over 3+ seasons.

for

right-handers Brad Peacock (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9039)and A.J. Cole, and lefty Tommy Milone (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9035)— plus catching prospect Derek Norris. Peacock, Cole and Norris ranked third, fourth and ninth, respectively, in Baseball America’s recent list of the Nationals’ top prospects.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:37 PM
Obviously this move was made with 2014+ in mind, and that is fine, especially since we took upside over "sure thing". But looking further into it, does this really hurt the Twins that much in 2013?

Span no doubt is a good player, who the Twins will miss but his production it appears is entirely replaceable. On the defensive side of things, Revere is at least as good of an overall defensive player as Span at CF and there is a very good chance that he has significantly better range in the position (quite possibly top 2 or 3 in all of baseball) Obviously his arm is garbage, but in CF I think it is "hidden" a bit and his range more then makes up for it.

Span certainly had a solid bat, but I don't think we are going to miss it as much as people think. Even with his best season in 3 years Span still posted the 6th best OPS on the team behind Willingham, Mauer, Doumit, Morneau, and Plouffe. I think there is a very good chance all 5 post higher then Span again in 2013. Parmelee should be able to post a higher OPS as well, if he didn't I would be pretty disappointed/surprised. Some may argue that OPS isn't an end all be all and that since Span was a leadoff hitter OBP mattered more. Span finished 4th on the team behind Mauer, Willingham and Jamey Carroll (which is surprising). In addition he was only 9 points higher then both Morneau and Revere. A healthy Morneau should out produce that in 2013, while I actually think Revere regresses a bit. She you are looking at what would be the 5th best OBP guy on your team having to be replaced. IMO in an offensive standpoint Parmelee should be able to come close to that as well.

In regards to speed, Span had it no doubt, but for every 2 steals he had it seems like he had one pick off. Revere is a better base runner no doubt, but overall the Twins will be hurt a bit on the "speed" category until a guy like Hicks comes up. Good news for the Twins is they didn't exactly run a whole lot anyways.

All this isn't even factoring in that Hicks could very well be up sometime in 2012 and ultimately be a better fielder, hitter (especially in the power category) and runner then Span.

So at the end of the day, while strengthening the team in the mid to long term I don't think it hurts the team much in the short term. Revere in CF is an upgrade defensively and it allows to get Parmelee a shot at playing every day. Additionally it makes Hicks and Arcia's path to the majors much easier.

Pretty solid move and great timing by Ryan IMO as Spans value was unlikely to get any higher.

A lot of valid points here. Let me add my two cents:

1) I believe a lot of people, both GM's and fans, have underrated Span for a long time. While not exceptional in any one category, Span was above average in many. The ability to be decent in the leadoff spot is not just about numbers. It is about professional at-bats, table setting, and providing quality while leading the team in PA. Span does all of these things. His ability to play CF and low salary make him a wanted asset.

2) Span could easily have been one of the nucleus for the next wave. More prospects burn out than excel. While we hope that the Hicks, Rosario, Buxton, et. al. group comes up and produces, the reality is that only 2-3 of them will have any real impact in the majors. Span is a proven MLB commodity that should still have a number of quality years left.

3) I like the fact the Twins are looking more toward a hopeful 1-2, than another sure 4-5. I think it shows the Twins are willing to take a few risks, something they have been generally averse to in the past. I'm not sure this was exactly how I would have like to see it. I would have like to seen an additional MLB ready #4-5 starter, along with Meyer, to help the team today as well.

4) Why is everybody convinced Parmalee will be productive at a major league level? He has not exactly torn it up for the Twins in the past. I think odds are better Hicks will be out there before him.

This smells of a typical TR move, reminiscent of Pierzynski or Knoblauch. Trading a vet for low minors guys, "knowing" they will help you in the future. While we won't have an answer for a few years, I tend to give TR the benefit of the doubt on these types of moves. Span is the type of player that Twins fan's tend to gravitate to. Hard working, better than average, no public dust ups, by all account a stand up guy. I for one will be sorry to see him go.

1. Valid points, but keep in mind the leadoff hitter often times is only the leadoff hitter once in a game. While "proffesional at bats" certainly are meaningful, at the end of the day if you are a table setter your first and only job should be to get on base (which Span was good/very good, but not great at)

2. Good point, now if the Twins only had Hicks or Arcia and a bunch of long shots behind them I would be more inclined to agree. The Twins in fact have 3 very good CF prospects, the odds of at least one of them producing at a high level is pretty good. Especially when Hicks and Arica have shown success as high as AA. This isn't even factoring in Revere, who I am not high on but at least has the potential to be a solid stop gap in the meantime. One thing I do know is that the Twins had next to zero high upside pitching in the minors, one of which had TJS and the other pretty much just turned 18. You deal from a strength and build up your weaknesses IMO (10 fold if your weakness is SP)

3. I mean, yeah, I think we all would prefer more then less, but in reality Span just didn't have that kind of value. A guy who has #5 type upside really doesn't excite me as the Twins are still loaded with those in the minors it seems. (or if they aren't they surely will be again soon) Also I haven't seen anyone actually say who the Nationals should have also included, just a lot of "oh another prospect" or "another pitcher" if someone were to throw some names out there we could maybe all discuss it.

4. I don't think anyone is convinced he is a sure thing, nor have I heard anyone claim he is. Though he has certainly earned himself a look based on three things: A strong MLB stint in 2011. A dominant AAA season last year, and somewhat solid production after his recall to the Majors in late August. (.753 OPS- not world beating, but showed improveent) You are right though, there is a chance that Hicks could be a regular before Parmelee. But in that case, we still have Revere (and Arcia +more in the wings) and Revere is at least a decent stop gap and you can always find a corner OF with pop on the FA market for somewhat cheap (see: Willingham and Doumit)

nicksaviking
11-29-2012, 09:37 PM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

johnnydakota
11-29-2012, 09:38 PM
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen
Where are people getting this 3 years from? Sickels himself says he could be ready come next season.

People understand the difference between college starters and HS starters right? There is no reason why Meyer shouldn't spend the majority of this season in AA with a shot at AAA towards the end. If he keeps doing what he has been doing he will be with the Twins come June 2014.
2013 AA
2014 AAA
2015 Maybe minnesota twins, if he continues to progress

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 09:41 PM
At the risk of derailing this thread, and not offering any explanation why, I'd like to just remind everyone what Beane and Rizzo agreed to last year, because it is so ridiculous in comparison.

Gio Gonzalez: 26, 3 years of team control remaining, 9.4 career RA9 wins over 3+ seasons.

for

right-handers Brad Peacock (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9039)and A.J. Cole, and lefty Tommy Milone (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9035)— plus catching prospect Derek Norris. Peacock, Cole and Norris ranked third, fourth and ninth, respectively, in Baseball America’s recent list of the Nationals’ top prospects.

I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:42 PM
I hope this kid is the best pitcher ever, but he is still 3 years away from joing the big club,and a lot can happen
Where are people getting this 3 years from? Sickels himself says he could be ready come next season.

People understand the difference between college starters and HS starters right? There is no reason why Meyer shouldn't spend the majority of this season in AA with a shot at AAA towards the end. If he keeps doing what he has been doing he will be with the Twins come June 2014.

I hope this is the outcome. Setting a goal for competitiveness in 2014 over 2013 makes the most sense. I hope the negative reviews that Meyers has received are completely wrong and that Ryan knows more about Meyer than Rizzo does.

Legitimate question: Who has the most bankable track record on prospects? Is it Sickels, or someone else?

Probably Terry Ryan.

So it it's Ryan, given his track record on minor league progression rates, Sickels predicting a Meyers call-up in 2013 is a non-starter, right?

Given these facts, the most optimistic scenario appears to be June 2014, and the cautious, go-slow Twins could easily hold that off to Sep. '14 or sometime in 2015.

The other concern I have is the Twins track record of pitchers breaking down and Meyers mechanics issues. Recipe for disaster if not handled better than past history of tall Twins power pitchers who ended up on serious DL time.

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:45 PM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

How about a little of both. The Twins have both current and future needs. The Braves gave up two pitching prospects, one very good, for a career #4-5 starter and a journeyman OF. It would have been nice to sweeten the pot and addressed a 2013 need through a multiple player deal.

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:48 PM
At the risk of derailing this thread, and not offering any explanation why, I'd like to just remind everyone what Beane and Rizzo agreed to last year, because it is so ridiculous in comparison.

Gio Gonzalez: 26, 3 years of team control remaining, 9.4 career RA9 wins over 3+ seasons.

for

right-handers Brad Peacock (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9039)and A.J. Cole, and lefty Tommy Milone (http://stats.washingtonpost.com/mlb/playerstats.asp?id=9035)— plus catching prospect Derek Norris. Peacock, Cole and Norris ranked third, fourth and ninth, respectively, in Baseball America’s recent list of the Nationals’ top prospects.

Duly noted.

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 09:52 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Rick Niedermann
11-29-2012, 09:52 PM
I like the trade. Twins aren't going to be competitive for a few years anyway. Looking at 2015: 1B-Parmalee 2B-Rosario SS-Santana 3B-Sano LF-Revere CF-Hicks RF-Arcia C-DH Maurer DH-Benson-Kepler. Rotation: Meyer-Gibson-Wimmers-Diamond, others in mix Hendriks-Hermsen-Berrios. Bullpen Arms: Perkins-Fien-Thielbar- Tonkin-Pugh-Robertson. This future team looks very appealing to me. Young, Talented, Athletic, Power, Speed. This is the fun part of Baseball. Looking ahead and projecting what the future might look like. The future looks bright in Minnesota a couple or 3 years from now.

twinsfaninsaudi
11-29-2012, 09:53 PM
Wow, surprising it's not a more MLB ready SP like Delgado or Leake, neither of whom I was all that excited about. Good to see we just added our future potential #1. God bless Spanů

I really want to know if Meyer's potential eclipse's Delgado's. Since they were going to trade him for half a season of Dempster I figured the Twins could have gotten him for Span, could be wrong. Certainly this time last year Delgado would have been more highly touted. I sure like the way Meyer's stuff reads. He turned down $2 million from the Red Sox to go to Kentucky in 2008. He's a Scott Boras client. I think this guy will overcome any concerns. There's been plenty of tall pitchers who thrived.

Kwak
11-29-2012, 09:54 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

Whew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.:rolleyes:

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:00 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:01 PM
I like the trade. Twins aren't going to be competitive for a few years anyway. Looking at 2015: 1B-Parmalee 2B-Rosario SS-Santana 3B-Sano LF-Revere CF-Hicks RF-Arcia C-DH Maurer DH-Benson-Kepler. Rotation: Meyer-Gibson-Wimmers-Diamond, others in mix Hendriks-Hermsen-Berrios. Bullpen Arms: Perkins-Fien-Thielbar- Tonkin-Pugh-Robertson. This future team looks very appealing to me. Young, Talented, Athletic, Power, Speed. This is the fun part of Baseball. Looking ahead and projecting what the future might look like. The future looks bright in Minnesota a couple or 3 years from now.
Some of those college RP the Twins picked this season could/should be ready by 2015 as well.

Though there are obviously still about 1000 questions with that lineup/rotation you mentioned, but it is fun to project what possibly could be!

Willihammer
11-29-2012, 10:03 PM
I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy for the A's, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

edit 2: again i don't have an angle. I'm not trying to grill JR or anything, I just can't get over how some of these deals come to pass and others don't.

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:05 PM
I like the trade. Twins aren't going to be competitive for a few years anyway. Looking at 2015: 1B-Parmalee 2B-Rosario SS-Santana 3B-Sano LF-Revere CF-Hicks RF-Arcia C-DH Maurer DH-Benson-Kepler. Rotation: Meyer-Gibson-Wimmers-Diamond, others in mix Hendriks-Hermsen-Berrios. Bullpen Arms: Perkins-Fien-Thielbar- Tonkin-Pugh-Robertson. This future team looks very appealing to me. Young, Talented, Athletic, Power, Speed. This is the fun part of Baseball. Looking ahead and projecting what the future might look like. The future looks bright in Minnesota a couple or 3 years from now.

I like your thinking and the 25-man payroll for 2015 in this configuration is only slightly north of $50M- which gives the club enormous wiggle room for tweaking and signing more top draft picks, international players and especially, FAs in areas of need. Too many on this board are wrapped up in what happens in 2013 when this scenario should be the priority.

mikeee
11-29-2012, 10:06 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

This is vbulletin. It's there.
In the upper right hand corner, click settings. On the left side there is "edit ignore list".

Riverbrian
11-29-2012, 10:07 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:11 PM
I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy for the A's, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

edit 2: again i don't have an angle. I'm not trying to grill JR or anything, I just can't get over how some of these deals come to pass and others don't.

Beane>Rizzo>Ryan

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:12 PM
I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

This may be splitting hairs but I didn't hear anyone calling Millone a sure thing major league ready #2, Gonzalez was and continues to remain the much better pitcher. There is a reason why Millone wasn't cracking the top 100 lists everywhere... Peacock was the centerpiece of that trade, no?

The comparison is still moot as Gonzalez is a top flight pitcher and Span is an above average CF. Which one of those are harder to find on the FA market/trade market?

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:15 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:18 PM
I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

This may be splitting hairs but I didn't hear anyone calling Millone a sure thing major league ready #2, Gonzalez was and continues to remain the much better pitcher. There is a reason why Millone wasn't cracking the top 100 lists everywhere... Peacock was the centerpiece of that trade, no?

The comparison is still moot as Gonzalez is a top flight pitcher and Span is an above average CF. Which one of those are harder to find on the FA market/trade market?

I'd say Billy Beane has hairsplitting down to an art/science. The Twins actually should be in a greater position of strength in conducting trades than the A's (the 2nd team in a market to the all-powerful Giants), who surely must have taken Hell in even considering dealing away Gonzalez.

ThePuck
11-29-2012, 10:22 PM
2015 at the earliest...so that's what we are shooting for...

Barring any setbacks and expecting a standard progression, Meyer will be in AA this season.

So you expect him to pitch 1 1/2 seasons in Rochester?

I don't assume he'll start in AA and even if he did, 2015 would mean one year in AA and one year in AAA

ThePuck
11-29-2012, 10:24 PM
It's not what the Twins loss, but waht did they gain in the next 4 years? Nothing!

4? Meyers will be up in 3 or less, imo. They also freed up money, that they can now use to sign two legit pitchers, instead of one. Let's see what they do with the money before totally giving up on this year....

You assume the money will be spent...we dropped 18M off 2011 payroll last year...didn't spend it

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:27 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 10:28 PM
So we wait 2 more years for hicks while we could be playin span by that time buxton and a few more will be ready and Myers hasn't pitched yet.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:40 PM
So we wait 2 more years for hicks while we could be playin span by that time buxton and a few more will be ready and Myers hasn't pitched yet.

2 more years? There is a good chance Hicks is up this year, and barring a major injury or significant regression he will certainly be in the plans at the beginning of next year.

Your being silly now with your (Meyer wont dont anything for 4 years and Hicks won't be ready for 2 years) when in fact that is simply false.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 10:43 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

ghostofgleemansflab
11-29-2012, 10:59 PM
all you clowns are simply missing the point on why this trade happened. Now Terry Ryan can follow organization philosophy. Step one: Draft/acquire power pitcher. Step 2: trade for Delmon Young.

We're comin!

gunnarthor
11-29-2012, 11:00 PM
I'm not so sure what is so ridiculous about that, if anything it shows how high of value a major league ready #2 has. Gonzalez was one of the best 5 pitchers in the game this year. Span highly likely won't even be one of the top 5 CF in baseball this year (if that is the comparison you are trying to draw)

I had to read that twice, because I wasn't sure if you were referring to Gonzalez or Millone as the MLB ready #2 (You're referring to Gonzalez, right?)

edit: because, at the time, they were both MLB ready no. 2's, even if BA didn't include Millone in their rankings.

Gonzalez had a great year. Bill James thinks he will regress back into that no. 2.

So, Peacock, Cole, Norris - they were all just gravy for the A's, along with the 3 extra years of team control on their new no. 2 starter.

edit 2: again i don't have an angle. I'm not trying to grill JR or anything, I just can't get over how some of these deals come to pass and others don't.

Milone isn't a #2, he's more like Slowey or Blackburn type. Was never a big time prospect. Benefits greatly from pitching in Oakland (has horrible h/r splits). Cole and Peacock were the better prospects although Peacock struggled a ton this year and some prospect guys (KLaw) thought he was a bullpen arm. Meyer has a better ceiling than both of them.

twinsnorth49
11-29-2012, 11:05 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

Whew, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.:rolleyes:

I'd pay a membership fee for that feature! That and a "blowhard" warning.

jokin
11-29-2012, 11:08 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/7/2/3130761/top-120-prospect-list-for-2012-midseason-revision-update

John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

#12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

#45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)


#64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)
#65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)
#74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)

#120-----------


Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)

Twins Twerp
11-29-2012, 11:08 PM
More people viewed this page than bought lottery tickets last night...fact based analysis.

ScottyB
11-29-2012, 11:09 PM
Is there an ignore feature on this site? Serious question.

No, but I've thought about looking into it, if only for my own sanity.

Double click on the icon (or name and choose view profile) of the person you want to ignore and choose the option "Add to ignore list".

Top Gun
11-29-2012, 11:22 PM
Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.

twinsnorth49
11-29-2012, 11:32 PM
If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.

Bark's Lounge
11-29-2012, 11:37 PM
Meyers & Hicks are prospects and nothin more, who is to say he can replace Span, could easily be someone else. The same goes for Meyers. The Twins could play like the Orioles next season why the rush to trade Span now for a prospect when we can do it when we are 10 games out and in last place. The fans need a team this year too, not in 4 or 5 years. I won't even be around to see it by then.

Top Gun. I cannot guess on your health status, but in my deepest heart of hearts, I hope you are around to see the next Twins World Championship.

Riverbrian
11-29-2012, 11:43 PM
I understand that we don't need Span. Doesn't Span have alot more value than Meyer? Doesn't Span have more value than Benson, Hicks, ect,?
Why the rush to trade him? Would not Benson or Hicks for Meyer be better? Could we make the same or better deal next fall?

Benson would not land you anything close to Meyer, his value is about as low as it could be currently.
Sure the Twins could have maybe traded Hicks for Meyer, but it would have been a mistake. As nice as 3 years of Span would be, 6+ years of Hicks (for even cheaper overall) is the superior choice to keep for a rebuilding team like the Twins.

It should be noted that Hicks has a greater upside then Span had/has as he is a better fielder, has more speed on the basepaths, has more power, has a better arm and a better eye at the plate. The main question with Hicks at this point is will he be able to continue to hit for averag and continue to increase his power.

Vodkadave... You should also mention that the Nationals would rather have Span right now because Span will be of more use in 2013.

I mean that is probably true, but I'm not sure the Nats would have told the Twins "we have no interest in Hicks". There is a decent to good chance that Hicks can contribute in 2013 and even though the Nats are set up very nicely for 2013, they are set up even more nicely for 2014-2015.I

I guess what I am saying is it wouldn't have killed the Nats to bring in Hicks and keep Harper in CF for another half season. I'm just personally glad the Twins traded Span rather then Hicks.

The point is moot as the Nats already have their own Hicks in Brian Goodwin. Span has just become his placeholder.

Goodwin is a nice prospect, but lets not say he is "their Hicks" he has exactly 100 games in his professional career and struggled quite a bit in AA. Hicks is a easily a superior prospect to Goodwin at this time, ntm Goodwin still might be a corner OF instead of a CF anyways.

Let's go to the "source", the guy we all agree has it right on Meyer, John Sickels:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/7/2/3130761/top-120-prospect-list-for-2012-midseason-revision-update

John Sickels Top 120 Prospects (2012 Mid-season Updated Edition)

#12 Miguel Sano (MN Twins)

#45 Eddie Rosario (Mn Twins)


#64. Oswaldo Arcia (MN Twins)
#65 Brian Goodwin (Wa Nats)
#74 Alex Meyer (Mn Twins)

#120-----------


Players under consideration who didn't make the top 120

Aaron Hicks (MN Twins)

The argument has gone from Span/Meyer to Hicks/Goodwin and when I wake up tomorrow morning It will probably move furthur down the line into calculating electron cloud shapes.

jokin
11-29-2012, 11:45 PM
If Ryan had made this move at the trade deadline everybody would have lauded it, to get a relatively high ceiling pitching prospect for a guy like Span is more than acceptable and is an appropriate direction to take. The two biggest needs identified by the majority of posters here are either major league ready starting pitching and starting pitching depth on the farm, seems to me TR just helped to address the latter and he addressed it from a position of organizational depth.

To categorize this as a salary dump is just taking the extreme cynical view. To profess these types of moves are necessary for the team to move forward and criticize Ryan for not having the foresight to make them, only to turn around and accuse him of dumping salary when he does, is at best disingenuous.

Unless you just want to be one of those who see fit to convince themselves that Meyers will ultimately be a bust, I don't see the problem with this move.

This is an agressive move that helps the team move forward. It officially acknowledges that the Twins are in rebuilding mode, as they should be. They made an attempt at going for, at best, a future #1-2 starter, or at worst, a closer/set-up guy. It does cut payroll in the short run, to set the team up better as the next wave emerges in 2014-15-16. Span was the #1 logical trading chip to acquiring a front-end SP and still maintain the semblance of a strong positional lineup to have a chance to make a run in 2013. If anyone can show evidence that the Twins are going to go all-in on signing Greinke and another top #2 FA pitcher, it's time to present the evidence or admit the truth. Any move coming up at the Winter Meetings or later can only serve to weaken the positional lineup and/or to further cut payroll in the short run (trading of one or more of the Big 3), to set up a stronger push in 2014 or 15.

I can't speak for other posters, but I was certainly hoping a move like this was multi-player to better address the multi-needs. It's unfortunate and disappointing that Span (with or without a package) couldn't have garnered more than just one pitcher currently at A level and with mechanical issues in a tall pitcher that in the past have appeared to be beyond the Twins level of expertise in fixing.

Otwins
11-29-2012, 11:46 PM
You can see Meyer's college stats here:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=alex-meyer-3

His previous high innings total was 101, so perhaps he tired later this season in high-A. He was "shut down" at 129 innings, Strasburg-style. I like that he's already made progress with control -- hopefully the Twins can keep his K rate up.

Here's a cool article about him and his pitches:

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120831&content_id=37671602&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

Thanks for the links. Meyer said he needs to refine his circle change. Sounds like Cuellar has another spring training assignment

jcphitman
11-29-2012, 11:49 PM
Longtime reader ... first time poster.

When I first read about the trade, I shook my head and figured here we go again. The Twins trade their best tradeable asset for one minor leaguer. After I started reading about, Meyer, I changed my mind.

I think Ryan's quote in the strib article sums it all up:
"These guys are hard to get, and if you are going to get them, it's going to be in the low-to-mid minors. Once they get up to Double A or Triple A, they are almost impossible to get." (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181434491.html)

We all knew we weren't going to get an ace or number 2 for Span in the majors, AAA, or AA. The best we could hope for might be a number 4. TR had to go to high A to get the best pitcher he could for Span.

I'm glad we didn't use Span and other prospects to get Shields. Why waste Span and currency (prospects such as Rozario, Hicks, etc.) in our minor league system for 2 years of Shields before he commands top dollar to stay and further hurt payroll? Rolling the dice on Meyer is the way to go. No guarantees he'll be good, but the Twins at least gave themselves a chance at a strong pitcher by bringing him in.

I'd rather have taken Meyer (I'll say "B" level prospect) then hope for two C prospects or a C and a few D prospects in return for Span. The Twins probably could have taken a quantity of lesser prospects, but they sacrificed more pieces coming back for quality. They put all their Span eggs in one basket for Meyer, but he has the best chance at producing vs. any other number of lesser prospects the Nats may have agreed to send.

I think it's silly fans (especially on the strib) are ripping the Twins for the move (the early replies of what I read). They don't understand baseball and how valuable young pitching is. You don't just buy young pitchers for 3 million like you do NBA draft picks. You need to either hit them right on the draft or trade impact players away to get the prospects. Span brought us the best pitcher he could. I'm satisfied based on Meyer's potential alone. Let's hope he's blessed enough to avoid Tommy John and cash in for a long MLB career with the Twins!

old nurse
11-29-2012, 11:55 PM
More people viewed this page than bought lottery tickets last night...fact based analysis.

Half of the views are from Dave and joking going back and forth.

old nurse
11-30-2012, 12:02 AM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

Top Gun
11-30-2012, 12:03 AM
Bark's L thanks for your well wishes. Nothin would be better than to see the Twins win. Twins winning is happiness.

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:03 AM
Longtime reader ... first time poster.

When I first read about the trade, I shook my head and figured here we go again. The Twins trade their best tradeable asset for one minor leaguer. After I started reading about, Meyer, I changed my mind.

I think Ryan's quote in the strib article sums it all up:
"These guys are hard to get, and if you are going to get them, it's going to be in the low-to-mid minors. Once they get up to Double A or Triple A, they are almost impossible to get." (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181434491.html)

We all knew we weren't going to get an ace or number 2 for Span in the majors, AAA, or AA. The best we could hope for might be a number 4. TR had to go to high A to get the best pitcher he could for Span.

I'm glad we didn't use Span and other prospects to get Shields. Why waste Span and currency (prospects such as Rozario, Hicks, etc.) in our minor league system for 2 years of Shields before he commands top dollar to stay and further hurt payroll? Rolling the dice on Meyer is the way to go. No guarantees he'll be good, but the Twins at least gave themselves a chance at a strong pitcher by bringing him in.

I'd rather have taken Meyer (I'll say "B" level prospect) then hope for two C prospects or a C and a few D prospects in return for Span. The Twins probably could have taken a quantity of lesser prospects, but they sacrificed more pieces coming back for quality. They put all their Span eggs in one basket for Meyer, but he has the best chance at producing vs. any other number of lesser prospects the Nats may have agreed to send.

I think it's silly fans (especially on the strib) are ripping the Twins for the move (the early replies of what I read). They don't understand baseball and how valuable young pitching is. You don't just buy young pitchers for 3 million like you do NBA draft picks. You need to either hit them right on the draft or trade impact players away to get the prospects. Span brought us the best pitcher he could. I'm satisfied based on Meyer's potential alone. Let's hope he's blessed enough to avoid Tommy John and cash in for a long MLB career with the Twins!

Excellent first post. Hopefully first of many.

I concur in going for gold over tin. But I still wish they could have poked around to get a better deal from favorable trading parteners like Cincy, Tampa or Texas. The Twins got fleeced once by the Nats already and they are primed to essentially "stand pat" and tinker with their roster as they prepare for a likely World Series run in 2013. It seems like the Twins might have been able to coax another piece or two currently blocked at the Major League level.

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:11 AM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

ashburyjohn
11-30-2012, 12:12 AM
Late to the party here tonight, but I'll chime in that this is the kind of trade I was hoping for - a high ceiling pitcher in exchange for an average MLB-proven CFer. I was kind of hoping for a second prospect (maybe in exchange for a throw-in by the Twins), but this is OK. As always, I have no fundamental insight into prospects so as armchair GM I have to trust "my" scouts on the choice of the pitcher to trade for.

The loss of Span frees up a little money that can be spent (with money already earmarked) on pitching to keep 2013-14 from being a disaster that would harm cashflow for when they are ready to compete again in 2015 or so. Should be an interesting winter, with this as the opening salvo.

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:16 AM
Late to the party here tonight, but I'll chime in that this is the kind of trade I was hoping for - a high ceiling pitcher in exchange for an average MLB-proven CFer. I was kind of hoping for a second prospect (maybe in exchange for a throw-in by the Twins), but this is OK. As always, I have no fundamental insight into prospects so as armchair GM I have to trust "my" scouts on the choice of the pitcher to trade for.

The loss of Span frees up a little money that can be spent (with money already earmarked) on pitching to keep 2013-14 from being a disaster that would harm cashflow for when they are ready to compete again in 2015 or so. Should be an interesting winter, with this as the opening salvo.

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:

In an interview with 1500 ESPN Twin Cities radio (via Phil Mackey of 1500 ESPN (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Twins_view_righthander_Alex_Meyer_as_a_potential_f rontline_starter112912)), Twins assistant GM Rob Antony said his team will likely pursue free agents over trades at the Winter Meetings. "We probably don't have a lot of pieces that we do have to trade for starting pitching [with Denard Span (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spande01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) now gone]," Antony said. "We'll probably be a little more aggressive and spend our time at the winter meetings talking to agents rather than clubs."


This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".

old nurse
11-30-2012, 12:21 AM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

old nurse
11-30-2012, 12:25 AM
[

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:



This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".



It could mean Marcum and Sanchez. That would be aggressive.

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

I wasn't in denial that it would have taken a package deal to get it done. As Twins fans all we have are the games of chicken and poker during the Hot Stove season, expectations, bluffs and ultimate realities have to get recalibrated here, that's all.

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:27 AM
[

Salvo #2 hot off the wires at MLBTradeRumors:



This could get interesting............................or it could mean Joe Saunders and that other Myers guy is their definition of "a little more agressive".



It could mean Marcum and Sanchez. That would be aggressive.

Yes, that would be agressive and would definitely float a lot of boats in Twinsland, unfortunately St Antony threw in that quaint qualifier, 'a little more'

jokin
11-30-2012, 12:40 AM
I'm wondering if people upset with the trade are more upset with the return or how far away the return seems? Had the Twins gotten Tijuan Walker, who is far away but a top ten prospect, would some of you folks still be disappointed? Serious question not trying to provoke.

Yes they would have. Based on what they complain about they appear to have expected as sure thing front end starter for Span.

After being teased in the media about going after guys like Shields and Cingrani, can you see why expectations had to be adjusted?

Media claims are about as close to reality as Thyrloss's last scoop. If Shields is traded it is going to net Tampa more than anything the Twins would offer. I am not sure what to make of the Reds talk. Shortstops seem harder to find than outfielders so it would have taken more than Span to swing that.

Are you thinking of Gregorious? Cingrani is the lights-out AA LHP who is for now at least, temporaily blocked from the majors by Chapman moving over from closer to the rotation.

drivlikejehu
11-30-2012, 01:01 AM
The Twins are devoid of pitching throughout the organization. One pitcher just isn't going to make enough of a difference in the long run. Oakland returned to contention after years of stockpiling good young arms.

Now, it may well be that this is the best return the Twins would ever get for Span, though it certainly seems light. But even if it is the best possible deal, it just highlights the dire straits the organization is in. They don't have the assets to trade their way out of it, nor the willingness to acquire quality free agent starters.

Shane Wahl
11-30-2012, 01:16 AM
Well, well, well, they finally did it. What this means, clearly, is that the team doesn't care about 2013 or 2014 and is waiting until 2015 when the top 6-10 prospects are either going to be rookies or second-year players. SOOOO . . . I would definitely want this to be blow-up central with AT LEAST Morneau dealt (Boston???) as well, if not Willingham and others. I think the trade is ok right now, but 2013 is going to be REALLY bad.

Top Gun
11-30-2012, 01:23 AM
Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com hears that the Rockies' asking price for Dexter Fowler is "sky high" and the outfielder is unlikely to be traded.

Crasnick also notes that potentially interested teams are concerned about Fowler's career splits, as he boasts an .882 OPS at Coors Field in his career but a .698 mark on the road. It's still early in the offseason, so things could change once more center field dominoes fall, but it appears that Fowler will probably stay put.


Source: Jerry Crasnick on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/274338418400579584) Would any other mlb team trade there starting cf & lead off hitter away like the Twins did?

Shane Wahl
11-30-2012, 01:47 AM
Meyer is going to be the real deal, so that is not at all coloring my trepidation here. I just don't like the idea of giving up on the next two years (UNLESS a complete youth movement is in store, because that would be very interesting to watch--in the next two years, Parmelee, Hicks, Arcia, Herrmann, and Benson add interest).

Anyway, Meyer was a ridiculous beast in HS, striking out more than 2 an inning his senior year. I am definitely excited about his future and he is clearly the best pitching prospect in the system. With a healthy Gibson and a quick-moving Berrios, the Twins could have a remarkable 1-2-3 by 2015.

Shane Wahl
11-30-2012, 01:54 AM
In the meantime, sign Marcum and Sanchez and go balls to the wall. Damn it.

Shane Wahl
11-30-2012, 01:58 AM
By the way, I wouldn't be opposed to a trade for another Indiana Mr. Baseball in Clayton Richard from the Padres. Hermsen, Swarzak, and Morales would likely bring that about. Or some other trade configuration.

twinstalker
11-30-2012, 04:13 AM
Haven't read through the last eighty or so comments, but I just saw this tidbit out there on the interwebz:

Meyer is a Boras client.

That should tell us all we need to know about how horribly the Twins will handle Meyer and his contract status each year. Meyer will never sign a team-friendly contract, and the Twins will likely shop him too late. Oh, well. The initial excitement about this just wore off. Let's hope he provides a positive contribution his first few years.

On the other hand, it will maybe keep the Twins from handing out a Blackburn/Mays/Baker contract when they don't have to.

wavedog
11-30-2012, 06:30 AM
I like the trade from the fact that the Nationals are my second-favorite team. They are getting an excellent leadoff hitter at a reasonable price. From the Twins side of things I hope we get a few good years from Meyer - since he is a Boras client - we will have to flip him in a trade at some point because we will never sign him to a long-term deal after his cheap years are over. I think we will miss Span more as a leadoff hitter than CF - I always thought he was better in RF. Revere for a year than Hicks in CF is our hope.

StormJH1
11-30-2012, 06:48 AM
The Boras angle kind of sucks, but at the end of the day, if Meyer turns out to be good enough to even warrant a long term deal, that will have meant we got enough out of this trade. Olney, Law, and even Gleeman seemed to generally like this prospect. Sure the Twins could have gotten more in theory. But with the Braves out, a Fowler trade and a few FA signings could have left us holding the bag too.

kab21
11-30-2012, 07:46 AM
This Boras complaint is ridiculous. He's not even in the majors and unless he's on the opening day roster in 2014 he's not going to be a FA for 8 years. let's worry about this Boras thing 8 years from now.

Brock Beauchamp
11-30-2012, 07:55 AM
I don't assume he'll start in AA and even if he did, 2015 would mean one year in AA and one year in AAA

Gibson went from A+ to AA to AAA in his debut season. Hendriks, a raw pitcher with virtually no pro ball experience, went from Low A to AAA in two seasons. You may want to rethink your timeline.

rico7961
11-30-2012, 08:17 AM
I like the trade. Twins aren't going to be competitive for a few years anyway. Looking at 2015: 1B-Parmalee 2B-Rosario SS-Santana 3B-Sano LF-Revere CF-Hicks RF-Arcia C-DH Maurer DH-Benson-Kepler. Rotation: Meyer-Gibson-Wimmers-Diamond, others in mix Hendriks-Hermsen-Berrios. Bullpen Arms: Perkins-Fien-Thielbar- Tonkin-Pugh-Robertson. This future team looks very appealing to me. Young, Talented, Athletic, Power, Speed. This is the fun part of Baseball. Looking ahead and projecting what the future might look like. The future looks bright in Minnesota a couple or 3 years from now.

I don't see how you can see a bright future. It looks more like the mid to late 90's from my perspective. You can go back to any point in Twins history and envision 3 years ahead and think, Wow. Look at the KC Royals they have been wowing for years and where are they today. Less than 20% of those "future stars" will ever be anything in MLB. Taking that into consideration, how does our future look.

Brock Beauchamp
11-30-2012, 08:29 AM
I don't see how you can see a bright future. It looks more like the mid to late 90's from my perspective. You can go back to any point in Twins history and envision 3 years ahead and think, Wow. Look at the KC Royals they have been wowing for years and where are they today. Less than 20% of those "future stars" will ever be anything in MLB. Taking that into consideration, how does our future look.

Much better than it did 24 hours ago. The Twins have a franchise player in Mauer, something KC hasn't had since, what, George Brett? They have Perkins, Plouffe, Parmelee, and Diamond for several more years. The Twins have three good pitching prospects in the minors, one of which should contribute this season. They have a handful of guys who may or may not work out (Hendriks, Wimmers, the college pitchers in the last draft class, etc.). They have a boatload of outfield prospects coming through the system. They have Sano.

All in all, they look pretty good going into 2014. Will that turn into a winning franchise? Hard to say but at least they're not positioned with only minor league talent.

Top Gun
11-30-2012, 08:30 AM
Ya the future will look a lot brighter when I win the lotto!

kab21
11-30-2012, 08:32 AM
Of course some prospects won't pan out but the mid 90's Twins never had talent like the current Twins system. Maybe it won't work but farm systems set up long playoff runs.

I think it's a little early to write the Royal's great system off. It's taking longer than SOME expected but that is an organization that has a lot of talent. Unfortunately none of the young pitchers have worked out.

Boom Boom
11-30-2012, 08:34 AM
For 2013, this makes the major league team significantly worse than they were at the end of the season. I'm not very confident that Ryan will put together a rotation that will both improve on the 2012 version and compensate for the loss of Span.

With that in mind I really think they should trade off some more players. The 2013 Twins have been all but mathematically eliminated.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-30-2012, 08:36 AM
This Boras complaint is ridiculous. He's not even in the majors and unless he's on the opening day roster in 2014 he's not going to be a FA for 8 years. let's worry about this Boras thing 8 years from now.

Whatever Kab, I certainly am worried about the state of the 2021 Twins.