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View Full Version : Doogie: Twins are looking for a "starting 3rd baseman"



John Bonnes
11-28-2012, 10:36 AM
Aaron and I talked a little bit about Ryan's comments about finding some competition for Trevor Plouffe in our last podcast. In his latest scoops (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/The_Scoops_David_Kahn_talked_Brandon_Roy_out_of_re tirement_for_now112812), Doogie takes it further than I did, sounding more like Aaron....


The Twins are looking for a starting third baseman. What that means for Plouffe is unclear, but could entail him moving back to the outfield. It's also possible they come up with a left-handed bat platoon-type option.

That would seem to contradict what Ryan said in his 2013 Offseason Handbook interview:


"(Plouffe is) coming in as the third baseman. Yes, he will. I need to create some competition over there though. And we will. And he’s aware of that. Nothing wrong with competition."

I won't believe they'll sign anyone to replace Plouffe until I see it. I could see them adding a left-handed option. (St. Paul's Jack Hannahan?) But of the problems the Twins needs to address, this needs to be towards the bottom of the list.

gunnarthor
11-28-2012, 11:00 AM
He's pretty bad defensively at third. I wonder if they think he might end up in RF or give 2B another shot.

mike wants wins
11-28-2012, 11:16 AM
Pitching....

greengoblinrulz
11-28-2012, 11:19 AM
Eric Chavez

nicksaviking
11-28-2012, 11:20 AM
With a quagmire covering 3/4ths of the infield, it makes me wonder why the Twins haven't been connected to any Jeff Keppinger rumors. I want the Twins to save their free agency bucks for starting pitching, but I can't imagine he'd be that prohibitively expensive.

ThePuck
11-28-2012, 11:22 AM
Aaron and I talked a little bit about Ryan's comments about finding some competition for Trevor Plouffe in our last podcast. In his latest scoops (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/The_Scoops_David_Kahn_talked_Brandon_Roy_out_of_re tirement_for_now112812), Doogie takes it further than I did, sounding more like Aaron....


The Twins are looking for a starting third baseman. What that means for Plouffe is unclear, but could entail him moving back to the outfield. It's also possible they come up with a left-handed bat platoon-type option.

That would seem to contradict what Ryan said in his 2013 Offseason Handbook interview:


"(Plouffe is) coming in as the third baseman. Yes, he will. I need to create some competition over there though. And we will. And he’s aware of that. Nothing wrong with competition."

I won't believe they'll sign anyone to replace Plouffe until I see it. I could see them adding a left-handed option. (St. Paul's Jack Hannahan?) But of the problems the Twins needs to address, this needs to be towards the bottom of the list.

Ryan contradict himself? Nah, never....

beckmt
11-28-2012, 11:26 AM
This also seems not to corrilate with TR's statement that all available money would be spent of FA pitching. Maybe this has changed, but we are getting different pictures.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 11:26 AM
I love Plouffe and I love his bat....but his fielding is quite bad. I wouldnt mind moving him to 2nd, anything is better than we have now. We not only need pitching we need a great 3rd baseman. I wish we would go after a guy like David Wright who can hold down that position for a long time to come, but we wont. So since we are going to do that might as well leave Plouffe at 3rd.Move him to the OF? We have a log jam there. Not going to happen.

Physics Guy
11-28-2012, 12:29 PM
Boy we sure are quick to write off Plouffe as a 3B. He is a former SS who just this year moved to 3B. Do you remember what Koskie was like when he started? If he works at it I don't see any physical reasons why he can't be at least a league-average defensive 3B. Give him some time to transition to the position. His arm strength doesn't seem to limit him from being a 3B, but his range doesn't bode well for a switch to 2B. As much as I would love his bat at 2B, putting him there makes our middle infield defense even worse.

Physics Guy
11-28-2012, 12:31 PM
I think Hanahan is exactly the type of player Ryan would bring in to be a platoon or guard against Plouffe regressing. He is cheap and is a lefty hitting option.

70charger
11-28-2012, 12:32 PM
Boy we sure are quick to write off Plouffe as a 3B. He is a former SS who just this year moved to 3B. Do you remember what Koskie was like when he started? If he works at it I don't see any physical reasons why he can't be at least a league-average defensive 3B. Give him some time to transition to the position. His arm strength doesn't seem to limit him from being a 3B, but his range doesn't bode well for a switch to 2B. As much as I would love his bat at 2B, putting him there makes our middle infield defense even worse.

This.

mike wants wins
11-28-2012, 12:57 PM
This is the same group that ran off Hardy.....give the man another year. Go fix other spots where you KNOW you have a problem.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 01:00 PM
This is the same group that ran off Hardy.....give the man another year. Go fix other spots where you KNOW you have a problem.

I AGREE! GO GET PITCHING...and a SS

nicksaviking
11-28-2012, 01:14 PM
To be clear, we're talking about the same Jack Hannahan who has a career OPS of .681 against righties? Sounds pretty silly to waste a roster spot on a guy for a .14 OPS improvement to platoon with a guy who's only had one full MLB season under his belt. Just because a guy bats left handed doesn't mean he automatically hits righties well.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 01:22 PM
To be clear, we're talking about the same Jack Hannahan who has a career OPS of .681 against righties? Sounds pretty silly to waste a roster spot on a guy for a .14 OPS improvement to platoon with a guy who's only had one full MLB season under his belt. Just because a guy bats left handed doesn't mean he automatically hits righties well.

Everyone who says we should get Jack Hannahan is just like SHOOTER from the pioneerpress....WORTHLESS!

roger
11-28-2012, 01:25 PM
Ryan was interviewed on one of the stations last night (I think it was ESPN 1500). Didn't hear the interview, but heard them play back a comment he made. A comment that is consistant with what he has been saying since the season ended. He said that their money would be used for pitching. He also said they would tweak the lineup a bit. But he was clear that the majority of their money would go to the pitching staff.

ScottyB
11-28-2012, 01:52 PM
Plouffe's value lies in his power and his ability to play multiple positions. I'm sure there are teams out there needing a third baseman who would jump at the chance to make him their third baseman. After one season, he can certainly field better than Miguel Cabrerra (don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two). But the point is that sometimes you sacrifice a little defense for a strong bat. Looking to the future, I could see Plouffe as our super utility guy, when our kiddie infielders finally make it. So by making him a platoon guy or a utility guy now, it keeps his cost down for the future. His versitility also allows TR to explore multiple trades for Span/Revere, Morneau/Parmelee or Willingham, or multiples thereof and move Plouffe around to fill in whereever.

But at this point, 3B should be a very low priority. Starting pitchers and shortstops should be at the top of the list. By the by, saw that Valencia was just acquired by the Orioles from the Sox for cash.

ThePuck
11-28-2012, 02:04 PM
Plouffe's value lies in his power and his ability to play multiple positions. I'm sure there are teams out there needing a third baseman who would jump at the chance to make him their third baseman. After one season, he can certainly field better than Miguel Cabrerra (don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two). But the point is that sometimes you sacrifice a little defense for a strong bat. Looking to the future, I could see Plouffe as our super utility guy, when our kiddie infielders finally make it. So by making him a platoon guy or a utility guy now, it keeps his cost down for the future. His versitility also allows TR to explore multiple trades for Span/Revere, Morneau/Parmelee or Willingham, or multiples thereof and move Plouffe around to fill in whereever.

But at this point, 3B should be a very low priority. Starting pitchers and shortstops should be at the top of the list. By the by, saw that Valencia was just acquired by the Orioles from the Sox for cash.

Does the fact that he can't play any position at even an average level factor in? Just because Gardy decides to move him all over the place, doesn't mean he can actually play all those positions.

And what teams are you talking about dying to make him their 3B if they had the chance. I mean, yeah, you can say that...but based on what? All those rumored traded offers for him? His great defense? His one month of great hitting? The fact he took forever to make the show and keeps getting bounced around cause he can't field well at any of them? I mean, what makes you think that?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 02:11 PM
Plouffe's value lies in his power and his ability to play multiple positions. I'm sure there are teams out there needing a third baseman who would jump at the chance to make him their third baseman. After one season, he can certainly field better than Miguel Cabrerra (don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two). But the point is that sometimes you sacrifice a little defense for a strong bat. Looking to the future, I could see Plouffe as our super utility guy, when our kiddie infielders finally make it. So by making him a platoon guy or a utility guy now, it keeps his cost down for the future. His versitility also allows TR to explore multiple trades for Span/Revere, Morneau/Parmelee or Willingham, or multiples thereof and move Plouffe around to fill in whereever.

But at this point, 3B should be a very low priority. Starting pitchers and shortstops should be at the top of the list. By the by, saw that Valencia was just acquired by the Orioles from the Sox for cash.

Does the fact that he can't play any position at even an average level factor in? Just because Gardy decides to move him all over the place, doesn't mean he can actually play all those positions.

And what teams are you talking about dying to make him their 3B if they had the chance. I mean, yeah, you can say that...but based on what? All those rumored traded offers for him? His great defense? His one month of great hitting? The fact he took forever to make the show and keeps getting bounced around cause he can't field well at any of them? I mean, what makes you think that?

Im going to go out on a limb here and say....youre not a Plouffe fan?

mike wants wins
11-28-2012, 02:13 PM
They know with certainty they have no second baseman, no shortstop, and are missing 4 starting pitchers. All resources should go there. Why waste resources replacing a guy that might be good when you know with certainty you have other holes to fill?

ThePuck
11-28-2012, 02:19 PM
Im going to go out on a limb here and say....youre not a Plouffe fan?

That was funny :-) In truth, I'm a fan of every player who wears the Twins jersey, and I root for Plouffe just like I root for Span or Morny, but I do my best not to exaggerate a player's abilities. Plouffe is a former first rounder who only made the roster last year because he was out of options and we didn't have anyone better to slot in there (sorry Hughes fans). He's not anywhere near a good fielder at any position (yet), and he's already in his prime. Gardy hasn't done Plouffe any favors either by having him play, 'guess your position'....

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 02:20 PM
They know with certainty they have no second baseman, no shortstop, and are missing 4 starting pitchers. All resources should go there. Why waste resources replacing a guy that might be good when you know with certainty you have other holes to fill?

Exactly we have other priorities. Right now we dont need to worry about 3rd base, that job is Plouffe's to lose and he has no one creeping over his shoulder ready to take the job. Sure we should sign a back up 3rd baseman, but we should not give Plouffe competition it would likely only mess with his and and force him to press. We need pitchers and middle infield. Im excited here with the winter meeting coming up.

Kwak
11-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Plouffe was literally handed a major league job because the Twins were afraid they would lose him if optioned. Probably so. They carried this guy (just like they did with Butera in '11) with a disgusting BAVG (wasn't it in the 110's) before he had his miracle. We know that if Plouffe gets lazy in his throwing motion the ball will sail away, his range (and well as his experience at 3B) is rather limited, and he hits in STREAKS (Caps intended). Since there are team needs far higher than 3B whatever competition he sees will be limited. Consider how long of a leash Valencia received at 3B before he was spat out--Plouffe will receive an even longer leash--but Ryan put him (and Gardenhire) on notice that Plouffe's name is not engraved in the lineup.

Boom Boom
11-28-2012, 03:06 PM
This is one of those "read between the lines" messages to Plouffe, similar to signing Sean Burroughs to push Danny Valencia (boy that worked out great, huh?).

TR's telling Plouffe to shape up or be replaced, indirectly through the media. Maybe he said it to Plouffe behind the scenes as well.

USAFChief
11-28-2012, 03:07 PM
Plouffe had less than 100 games at 3b. Opinions on his defense there are pretty premature. He wasn't as bad as some of you are making it sound, and he has the physical tools to play the position. He made it all the way to the big leagues as a SS, which tells me he should be able to learn 3b, and probably fairly quickly.

IMO Plouffe's future will be determined by his bat, not by his defense, and that holds true whether he stays at third or they move him to second. My guess is he will be the Twins everyday third baseman in 2013. He wasn't that bad in 2012, and as others have said there are too many higher priorities to worry about Plouffe.

Twins Twerp
11-28-2012, 03:11 PM
Are you kidding me? Plouffe had one of the best 2 month stretches a Twins 3rd baseman has ever had. Now don't pull out your stupid sabre metric junk and tell me he got lucky and all of this stuff. The dude was mashing the ball out of the park. Then he hurt his wrist. He came back and his power was gone...because of a lingering wrist injury. By watching his footwork and arm, he could still be an average defensive 3b. Would you sacrafice a little defense for 20-30 hr's a season and a .300 BA. The dude can mash. I don't see any problem in him holding the for down until Sano is ready.

In my estimation this is the order of needs for the Twins this offseason: Starting pitcher, starting pitcher, SS, starting pitcher, 2b, starting pitcher, middle reliever, 3b. This is what we need, in my estimation. I only put third base down to make a point that we need so many more things than a starting third baseman.

To recap, give Plouffe another year for 3 reasons: 1. He is cheap and under team control until Sano is up;
2. We don't know if his short burst of power could be legit, or was a steroid induced mirage.
3. We have so many other needs, the idea that a new third basemen is even a top 10 need, is crazytalk.
4. (I just thought of)- We gave Danny Valencia 2+ years for crying out loud and the guy was the biggest ass in Twins history. I heard a first hand account, from one of his Beloit teammates, that he refused to play anywhere other than 3rd base. He would actually tell managers and other players that he was "a thirdbasemen only." It took the twins years to ship him out.

Danchat
11-28-2012, 03:31 PM
Give Plouffe another year. Let him play. Worry about starting pitching and SS and leave 3B for next year.

Willihammer
11-28-2012, 03:50 PM
I really think Mauer is the man they're looking for. Stick him there against righthanders, slot Plouffe to 2nd. Against lefties, put Plouffe at 3B and Dozier/Florimon at the open spot in MI. Problem solved.

They could have solid pop against righthanded starters that way.

Span (CF)
Revere (RF)
Mauer (3B)
Willingham (LF)
Morneau (1B)
Doumit (C)
Parmelee (DH)
Plouffe (2B)
Carroll (SS)

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 03:55 PM
Im going to go out on a limb here and say....youre not a Plouffe fan?

That was funny :-) In truth, I'm a fan of every player who wears the Twins jersey, and I root for Plouffe just like I root for Span or Morny, but I do my best not to exaggerate a player's abilities. Plouffe is a former first rounder who only made the roster last year because he was out of options and we didn't have anyone better to slot in there (sorry Hughes fans). He's not anywhere near a good fielder at any position (yet), and he's already in his prime. Gardy hasn't done Plouffe any favors either by having him play, 'guess your position'....

Thanks Puck i was trying to get your thoughts on Plouffe. Just like you I am a fan of everyone who suits up in a twins uniform. Last year was not Plouffe's first time playing the big leagues, the year before he played a few games as well. Yes he is a former first rounder who took some time to develop, just like Parmelee but he had great numbers under Bruno at AAA. I think Bruno will be able to tap into both Plouffe's and Parmelee's potential at the big league level. Your definitely right Gardy has not done him any favors playing musical chairs with Plouffe's positions but give him some time, I think he can be the best 3rd baseman we have had since Corey Coskie.

ThePuck
11-28-2012, 04:00 PM
'I think he can be the best 3rd baseman we have had since Corey Coskie.'

that's hardly a big deal...considering who has manned that spot since Koskie was gone :-)

And I'm fine with continuing to give him a shot, all I was trying to say is, let's be realistic in what he's shown us so far...

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 04:05 PM
'I think he can be the best 3rd baseman we have had since Corey Coskie.'

that's hardly a big deal...considering who has manned that spot since Koskie was gone :-)

And I'm fine with continuing to give him a shot, all I was trying to say is, let's be realistic in what he's shown us so far...

I know that wasnt saying much. But if he can hold it down like Koskie did it gives us one less infield position to worry about you know? By all means we have nothing to lose by letting Plouffe play 3rd all year. If he sucks this year then you just go on to find the next guy.

LaBombo
11-28-2012, 04:15 PM
This is one of those "read between the lines" messages to Plouffe, similar to signing Sean Burroughs to push Danny Valencia (boy that worked out great, huh?).

TR's telling Plouffe to shape up or be replaced, indirectly through the media. Maybe he said it to Plouffe behind the scenes as well.

^2.

There's no way 3rd base is even a top 5 priority for Ryan. Plouffe is still learning the position and has a pretty good chance to be one of the five best hitters on the team next season. This is just Ryan telling Plouffe they expect more from him next season.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to add a low rent Hannahan-ish lefty for a platoon at third. Kind of like the Leius/Pagliarulo platoon in '91. Leius was a converted shortstop who ended up a plus defender at third after some polishing, and he had some pop against lefties while being pretty useless against righties. Pags was the steadier defender, and had traded most of his power for a decent average by that point in his career.

It worked then, and could work again if they'd let it. Of course to make room on the roster, they might have to give up carrying a little of their customary bench baggage, like a third catcher, 13th pitcher, or the ever-present injured and unavailable guy who should've been on the DL a week ago.

ScottyB
11-28-2012, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=ThePuck
Does the fact that he can't play any position at even an average level factor in? Just because Gardy decides to move him all over the place, doesn't mean he can actually play all those positions.

And what teams are you talking about dying to make him their 3B if they had the chance. I mean, yeah, you can say that...but based on what? All those rumored traded offers for him? His great defense? His one month of great hitting? The fact he took forever to make the show and keeps getting bounced around cause he can't field well at any of them? I mean, what makes you think that?[/QUOTE]

The guy has played fewer than 100 games at 3B in the majors and fewer than 80 games at third in the minors. His fielding percentage at 3B in the minors is actually much better than Corey Koskie's was in the minors (although neither is great - .943 to .924). Obviously Koskie became a much better fielder with practice. Give the guy a chance, his injury also contributed to some of his errors as well as his batting after. He took a while to come up because he was drafted out of high school.

I never said that any teams were 'dying to make him their 3B', but I'd wager that teams including the A's, Astros, Braves, Indians, Marlins, Cubs, Rockies, and Angels would all give Plouffe a try over their current options at 3B. Plouffe is not so horrendous at 3B that he shouldn't be given a legitimate trial of a full season - his bat alone says he deserves a shot. Remember in the minors we have Sano who just committed 42 errors at 3B. He's being given a shot because of his bat, the same case can be made for Plouffe. Wouldn't it be a wiser option to let Plouffe get acclimated at 3B for a full season, while the Twins stink, and spend money where we have glaring holes at shortstop and on four starting pitchers instead of wasting money on another starting 3B.

They need to quit messing with his head.

Riverbrian
11-28-2012, 04:55 PM
I realize that Plouffe isn't the greatest contact guy. He chases way too much.... Poor discipline and that's correctable. It's often not corrected but correctable.

However, his power is legit. 24 dingers last year in 422 at bats. That's a 30 homer guy with a full season of at bats. And you can say the same thing about 2011 between AAA and the majors. Yes... He has room to improve but is this really the guy to worry about right now? I'd say no.


As for the hot streak... That streak was freeky... However... I keep reading posts that he was lucky... Almost like the posters are using the streak against him. Luck is certainly a factor but let's not use the streak against him. Anybody who can get that hot is worth trotting out there in case he does it again.


Turn your attention to pitching..,. Provide competition for everyone... Mauer... Revere... Plouffe... Everyone... But to list Plouffe as an immediate concern is crazy...


Pitching please... Please... Please...