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Parker Hageman
11-27-2012, 08:40 PM
According to the Star Tribune's LaVelle Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181081341.html), the Twins are expected to speak with free agent Francisco Liriano's agents next week during the winter meetings in Nashville but have had some initial talks with his representatives already this offseason.

The enigmatic 29-year-old left-hander has struggled mightily with control since a bounce-back 2010 campaign. His 12.6% walk rate has been the second-highest in baseball in that time and his 5.23 ERA has been very unimpressive. That said, he is still under 30, likely in line for a one-year deal and has missed more bats than any other starting pitching in the past two years (12.4% swinging strike rate).

If the Twins are set on filling out the back of their rotation with a high risk/high reward free agent, Liriano is just as good as any.

Brad Swanson
11-27-2012, 08:48 PM
I'm sure everyone will have very rational feelings about this.

John Bonnes
11-27-2012, 08:48 PM
I'm sure everyone will have very rational feelings about this.

I laughed out loud. I did.

IdahoPilgrim
11-27-2012, 08:53 PM
I guess this tells us exactly where they're at looking for starting pitching. It's going to be a long season.

Brock Beauchamp
11-27-2012, 08:58 PM
Liriano at $4m is a hell of a lot better than Feldman at $6m. At least with Francsico, there's a small hope for upside.

twinsnorth49
11-27-2012, 09:01 PM
Must.......not..........get...............angry!!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzRVPsMmYsG3XkSBbLgB4pAXDensPgB uM2fy8vNS93D8Rfn2Vv

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-27-2012, 09:04 PM
I'm sure everyone will have very rational feelings about this.

I laughed out loud. I did.

So did I John...So did I...Heres our one big signing!

Winston Smith
11-27-2012, 09:05 PM
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein (http://twinsdaily.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_einstein.html)

Linus
11-27-2012, 09:08 PM
Before the inevitable vemom is spewed, they would be looking to bring him back on the cheap with the idea that he would contend for a 4 or 5 spot. Would you rather have Frankie, Deduno or DeVries filling those spots?

darin617
11-27-2012, 09:11 PM
Maybe they have interest in him as a SS? LOL

ThePuck
11-27-2012, 09:14 PM
wow...

mike wants wins
11-27-2012, 09:18 PM
I'd rather they start fresh, but it would not surprise me. It probably would not make me super thrilled, though. I'd like the last guy to be someone from another team's minor league system. Diamond, Gibson, FA, FA, traded for guy....that's what I'd like (in no particular order). And, I'd want both FA signings to be, you know, good.

SgtSchmidt11
11-27-2012, 09:54 PM
I'm sure everyone will have very rational feelings about this.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

jorgenswest
11-27-2012, 10:14 PM
Higher upside and higher risk than most pitchers in his price range. Still young. Makes more sense to me than signing a Guthrie or Feldman.

70charger
11-27-2012, 10:21 PM
I've been a proponent of calling the Liriano experiment dead and buried ever since he was traded. Aside from a fluky 2010, his post-TJ career has been pretty damn bad. This is also why our trade return on him was actually a good bit better than I expected and certainly nothing to complain about.

On the other hand, if he is as cheap as some are suggesting ($4 million!?), I'd be okay with them throwing a year at him. Maybe a make-good contract would light a fire under his butt finally.

PseudoSABR
11-27-2012, 10:24 PM
If Liriano hadn't already been a Twin, he'd be exactly the kind of pitcher we'd want them to target. Go figure.

mike wants wins
11-27-2012, 10:36 PM
Heck, for $4MM, they might even be willing to move him to the pen, where he belongs, and can then flip him at the deadline again, assuming they cannot sign enough good starters....and aren't good.

Nick Nelson
11-27-2012, 10:43 PM
If Liriano hadn't already been a Twin, he'd be the exactly the kind of pitcher we'd want them to target. Go figure.

Bingo. I'm fully on board as long as he costs less than Feldman.

greengoblinrulz
11-27-2012, 10:58 PM
Could you get better than Pedro Hernandez/Eduardo Escobar for him July 31st????
Will truly show how cheap Terry Ryan truly is if this happens

gunnarthor
11-27-2012, 11:24 PM
I understand why we'd bring him back but I'd just as soon move on.

Kwak
11-27-2012, 11:33 PM
If Liriano hadn't already been a Twin, he'd be the exactly the kind of pitcher we'd want them to target. Go figure.
Darn right! $4MM is likely less than what is the final offer that he signs. I think he signs for at least as much as Baker.

glunn
11-28-2012, 12:03 AM
With Liriano, at least we have a chance of getting an ace.

jctwins
11-28-2012, 12:10 AM
At least there will be good seats available at the ballpark this year.

beckmt
11-28-2012, 01:02 AM
If Liriano hadn't already been a Twin, he'd be the exactly the kind of pitcher we'd want them to target. Go figure.

Bingo. I'm fully on board as long as he costs less than Feldman.

Ageed. At least he has an upside, and if he is decent and the Twins suck this year can bring another return at the trade deadline. Hoping is will be less than 4 mil, but could be and not be bad, also with an option year if possible.

old nurse
11-28-2012, 01:19 AM
Liriano should find someplace like Miami to pitch. No pressure to win and he will do fine.

Top Gun
11-28-2012, 01:30 AM
La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that the Twins have had conversations with Francisco Liriano's representatives and the two sides are expected to meet at the winter meetings.

The Twins' search for starting pitching is bringing them back to a familiar face. While general manager Terry Ryan wouldn't confirm his interest in the left-hander, he didn't deny it, either. "I haven't spoken on the record about anyone we are interested in. Everyone knows we are looking for starting pitching," Ryan said. In addition to Liriano, the Twins have also been connected to Brett Myers and Joe Saunders.
Related: Twins (http://twinsdaily.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/min/twins)

Source: Minneapolis Star-Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/181081341.html)

crapforks
11-28-2012, 04:12 AM
If 4m is the price, that's just fine. That isn't a prohibitive amount of money. There's still the Dan Haren, Joe Blanton, Ryan Dempster, etc. that the team should​ be in on. I understand the one-year desire with someone like Liriano.

Highabove
11-28-2012, 04:19 AM
Someone asked on the Trib. page

"Would we have to give back the bag of Balls???"

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-28-2012, 09:40 AM
Liriano is a much better signing then Feldman and several other garbage options.

I am all for giving him a one year 4-5 mil deal. In a perfect world we could get a team option on him as well.

Boom Boom
11-28-2012, 09:49 AM
No, no, a thousand times no.

It's time to give up the ghost on "he's got ace potential" and "if he could only get his head on straight". Liriano is terrible and the Twins should let him be someone else's headache from now on.

I'd rather have Cole De Vries, Samuel Deduno, or Nick Blackburn in the rotation. We don't have to throw more bad money at those guys.

beckmt
11-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Remember we now have Bobby Cuellar on staff to help. Liriano could be his project. 3 - 4 mil a year is better than 6 million for Feldman. At least he can be good for some starts..

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-28-2012, 10:16 AM
I'd rather have Cole De Vries, Samuel Deduno, or Nick Blackburn in the rotation. We don't have to throw more bad money at those guys.

I'll have whatever you are smoking.

Boom Boom
11-28-2012, 10:26 AM
I'd rather have Cole De Vries, Samuel Deduno, or Nick Blackburn in the rotation. We don't have to throw more bad money at those guys.

I'll have whatever you are smoking.

Sorry bro, I'm all out.

Why not run out the terrible pitcher we already have instead of investing in a terrible pitcher we don't have?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 10:40 AM
I'd rather have Cole De Vries, Samuel Deduno, or Nick Blackburn in the rotation. We don't have to throw more bad money at those guys.

I'll have whatever you are smoking.

im with you man. Pass that stuff over here.... Nick Blackburn are you kidding me? If Blackburn stayed in the rotation last year he could of had the WORST ERA EVER for a starting pitcher!

nicksaviking
11-28-2012, 10:41 AM
If he's more reasonable than Baker/Feldmen why not? The Twins should know by now how to use him; pre-emptively throw him in the pen to counter his expected April control meltdown, move him to the rotation mid-May to benefit from his June/July K/9 increase and WHIP decrease then move him at the deadline before his late season swoon kills his image. For a guy labeled "inconsistant", he's extremely predictable. If a manager/GM had the sack to use him based on his historical tendancies a team could get some good value out of him.

Musk21
11-28-2012, 11:58 AM
Exactly the kind of project that Andy excels at.

Nick Nelson
11-28-2012, 12:01 PM
It's amazing to me how quickly people forget Liriano's stretches of brilliance over the past three years. Has he been frustrating? Yes. But the guy has legitimate talent and that's in short supply here. When you're looking for a guy on a low-cost one-year deal, you're going to have to accept some frustration and downside. We're talking about one of the league's best strikeout pitchers who is in the prime of his career.

Boom Boom
11-28-2012, 12:12 PM
It's amazing to me how quickly people forget Liriano's stretches of brilliance over the past three years. Has he been frustrating? Yes. But the guy has legitimate talent and that's in short supply here. When you're looking for a guy on a low-cost one-year deal, you're going to have to accept some frustration and downside. We're talking about one of the league's best strikeout pitchers who is in the prime of his career.

I've heard this all before, for the last two seasons when any short-term "stretches of brilliance" from Liriano were tempered by long, arduous, painful stretches of being absolutely brutal. I don't want to try and turn him around again, and I certainly don't want to talk about how talented he is. Confidence is a talent, and one that Liriano doesn't have enough of to be a quality MLB starter.

StormJH1
11-28-2012, 12:16 PM
It's amazing to me how quickly people forget Liriano's stretches of brilliance over the past three years. Has he been frustrating? Yes. But the guy has legitimate talent and that's in short supply here. When you're looking for a guy on a low-cost one-year deal, you're going to have to accept some frustration and downside. We're talking about one of the league's best strikeout pitchers who is in the prime of his career.
If Aaron Gleeman were typing this post instead of me, he would respond that if the aggregate of those brilliant stretches and unquestionably horrible stretches is an end product that is still, well, pretty terrible, then it doesn't matter.

Here are Liriano's ERA's for the last 4 years: 5.80, 3.62, 5.09, 5.34. Hoping for "2010 Liriano" to happen again is like the people who expect Mauer to hit .360 with 29 HR's every year - it isn't going to happen. Moreover, he actually got slightly WORSE after going to Chicago, despite people's perceptions of that move.

Also, I really don't agree that the Twins would ever target a pitcher like Liriano as a free agent, had he not been with the team previously. Over the past 2 seasons, he's been pretty consistently a guy with 5.0+ walks per 9 innings. That's probably the biggest reason that a guy with a K/9 rate of 9.0+ can barely stay in the rotation. How would picking up a guy like that fit the Twins M.O. in any way? Liriano now is basically a slightly more wild version of what Jonathan Sanchez was prior to 2012, when he completely fell off the rails. The Twins may change their tune out of utter desperation, but there's zero track record of the Twins targeting free agent starters who miss bats but are also irreparably erratic.

Ultimately, the "boring" pitchers who manage to give up about between 3-5 runs almost EVERY game are going to be more useful to the twins than a guy who either gives up 2 runs or completely implodes.

StormJH1
11-28-2012, 12:21 PM
I've heard this all before, for the last two seasons when any short-term "stretches of brilliance" from Liriano were tempered by long, arduous, painful stretches of being absolutely brutal. I don't want to try and turn him around again, and I certainly don't want to talk about how talented he is. Confidence is a talent, and one that Liriano doesn't have enough of to be a quality MLB starter.

Right, and let us not forget that this guy got himself dropped out of the rotation pretty quickly last year, and not just any rotation - it was possibly the worst rotation in baseball.

Nick Nelson
11-28-2012, 12:43 PM
Here are Liriano's ERA's for the last 4 years: 5.80, 3.62, 5.09, 5.34. Hoping for "2010 Liriano" to happen again is like the people who expect Mauer to hit .360 with 29 HR's every year - it isn't going to happen. Moreover, he actually got slightly WORSE after going to Chicago, despite people's perceptions of that move.
If we're talking about acquiring a back-of-the-rotation starter who will leave the Twins flexibility to add more pieces, you're not going to do much better. Scott Feldman's ERAs over the last 6 years: 5.09, 3.94 (32 IP), 5.48, 4.08, 5.29, 5.77. And he just got $6M.

I'm obviously aware of Liriano's control problems and clearly he's not a safe bet but to rebound, but at that money you're not going to get a safe bet. Expectations need to be adjusted. Frankie still has more upside than just about anyone you're likely to find in his price range. I'd also add that his xFIP numbers over the time span you mentioned are 4.48, 2.95, 4.52 and 4.14, so with decent defensive support and neutral luck he should be expected to be no worse than average even if the control issues linger.

And while I don't mean to speak for Gleeman, I strongly doubt he would build a case entirely around the ERA statistic.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE=Right, and let us not forget that this guy got himself dropped out of the rotation pretty quickly last year, and not just any rotation - it was possibly the worst rotation in baseball.[/QUOTE]

exactly. He got demoted from the MLBs worst rotation. Time to just cut the chord with Liriano. I dont even want to hear his name unless he signs with another team and continues to implode.

StormJH1
11-28-2012, 01:37 PM
Here are Liriano's ERA's for the last 4 years: 5.80, 3.62, 5.09, 5.34. Hoping for "2010 Liriano" to happen again is like the people who expect Mauer to hit .360 with 29 HR's every year - it isn't going to happen. Moreover, he actually got slightly WORSE after going to Chicago, despite people's perceptions of that move.
If we're talking about acquiring a back-of-the-rotation starter who will leave the Twins flexibility to add more pieces, you're not going to do much better. Scott Feldman's ERAs over the last 6 years: 5.09, 3.94 (32 IP), 5.48, 4.08, 5.29, 5.77. And he just got $6M.

I'm obviously aware of Liriano's control problems and clearly he's not a safe bet but to rebound, but at that money you're not going to get a safe bet. Expectations need to be adjusted. Frankie still has more upside than just about anyone you're likely to find in his price range. I'd also add that his xFIP numbers over the time span you mentioned are 4.48, 2.95, 4.52 and 4.14, so with decent defensive support and neutral luck he should be expected to be no worse than average even if the control issues linger.

And while I don't mean to speak for Gleeman, I strongly doubt he would build a case entirely around the ERA statistic.
No, Aaron would not build an argument around ERA (he got on Bonnes for doing that in a recent podcast). I'm wasn't necessarily doing that either, but I'm not a hardcore stat guy, and I (like John) don't think that ERA is entirely worthless. I'm fairly confident that there's any number of metrics that could used to quantify the fact that Liriano was not a very good pitcher last year. Or 2011. Or 2009.

Until we know what type of deal Liriano gets, it's premature to say what his price range is. The assumption seems to be that he takes 1 or 2 years at $5, 6, or 7 million per. If Jeremy Guthrie can get a 3-year deal, couldn't Liriano also? If it takes a commitment of $25 million to sign him, or maybe even $20 million, sorry, but I'm out.

I won't hate it if Liriano comes back. I have nothing against him personally, and there is enough upside to think that he could help us for portions of the season, particularly in our desperate state. But given a choice between a somewhat-risky multi-year deal for Baker, or a multi-year deal for Liriano, I'd honestly prefer Baker. Also, I have serious doubts that Liriano would want to put himself back in Minnesota, but we'll have to see.

h2oface
11-28-2012, 02:33 PM
RA Dickey didn't click until his mid thirties. liriano will shine again. he is high risk but very high reward, but it is yet to be seen if he can be had on the cheap. and still in his 20's. anderson and gardenhire don't seem to be the ones to help him. maybe cuellar? instead, we will probably see him pitching his second no hitter against the twins.

Fatt Crapps
11-28-2012, 02:41 PM
RA Dickey didn't click until his mid thirties. liriano will shine again.

Lefty knuckleball?

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-28-2012, 03:12 PM
Here are Liriano's ERA's for the last 4 years: 5.80, 3.62, 5.09, 5.34. Hoping for "2010 Liriano" to happen again is like the people who expect Mauer to hit .360 with 29 HR's every year - it isn't going to happen. Moreover, he actually got slightly WORSE after going to Chicago, despite people's perceptions of that move.
If we're talking about acquiring a back-of-the-rotation starter who will leave the Twins flexibility to add more pieces, you're not going to do much better. Scott Feldman's ERAs over the last 6 years: 5.09, 3.94 (32 IP), 5.48, 4.08, 5.29, 5.77. And he just got $6M.

I'm obviously aware of Liriano's control problems and clearly he's not a safe bet but to rebound, but at that money you're not going to get a safe bet. Expectations need to be adjusted. Frankie still has more upside than just about anyone you're likely to find in his price range. I'd also add that his xFIP numbers over the time span you mentioned are 4.48, 2.95, 4.52 and 4.14, so with decent defensive support and neutral luck he should be expected to be no worse than average even if the control issues linger.

And while I don't mean to speak for Gleeman, I strongly doubt he would build a case entirely around the ERA statistic.
No, Aaron would not build an argument around ERA (he got on Bonnes for doing that in a recent podcast). I'm wasn't necessarily doing that either, but I'm not a hardcore stat guy, and I (like John) don't think that ERA is entirely worthless. I'm fairly confident that there's any number of metrics that could used to quantify the fact that Liriano was not a very good pitcher last year. Or 2011. Or 2009.

Until we know what type of deal Liriano gets, it's premature to say what his price range is. The assumption seems to be that he takes 1 or 2 years at $5, 6, or 7 million per. If Jeremy Guthrie can get a 3-year deal, couldn't Liriano also? If it takes a commitment of $25 million to sign him, or maybe even $20 million, sorry, but I'm out.

I won't hate it if Liriano comes back. I have nothing against him personally, and there is enough upside to think that he could help us for portions of the season, particularly in our desperate state. But given a choice between a somewhat-risky multi-year deal for Baker, or a multi-year deal for Liriano, I'd honestly prefer Baker. Also, I have serious doubts that Liriano would want to put himself back in Minnesota, but we'll have to see.

Nobody is claiming we should run out and give Liriano 20 million dollars, everything I have seen says 1 year 4-5 mil.

I'd consider giving him a 1 year 5.5 mil deal with a 6 mil team option.

USAFChief
11-28-2012, 03:17 PM
There's a non zero chance Liriano is the best FA pitcher signed this winter. Count me in. Get SOMEthing done, JR.

Danchat
11-28-2012, 03:25 PM
Is now a good time to jump off the ship? I mean....captain TR believes the ship is still floating, however, clearly, half the boat is underwater.
I say we 're-build' and make a life raft, or we can believe the illusion we aren't sinking.
In all seriousness, I think Liriano will follow Drew Butera, the hispanic pitcher whisperer. If he can get on a team. (he's not going to be tendered, right?)

messed up
11-28-2012, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=Right, and let us not forget that this guy got himself dropped out of the rotation pretty quickly last year, and not just any rotation - it was possibly the worst rotation in baseball.

exactly. He got demoted from the MLBs worst rotation. Time to just cut the chord with Liriano. I dont even want to hear his name unless he signs with another team and continues to implode.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. It sounds like some of you are content with another 90+ loss season.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=Right, and let us not forget that this guy got himself dropped out of the rotation pretty quickly last year, and not just any rotation - it was possibly the worst rotation in baseball.

exactly. He got demoted from the MLBs worst rotation. Time to just cut the chord with Liriano. I dont even want to hear his name unless he signs with another team and continues to implode.

Ditto. It sounds like some of you are content with another 90+ loss season.[/QUOTE]

Finally someone who agrees. I dont get why this thread is still going! Whoever wants Liriano is crazy.

TheLeviathan
11-28-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm fairly confident that there's any number of metrics that could used to quantify the fact that Liriano was not a very good pitcher last year. Or 2011. Or 2009.

Exactly, well said. Anyone who wants to focus on his "brilliance" is doing nothing more than cherry-picking. Obviously this team has worse options to gamble on if the price is right, but can we please, please stop this cave-man analysis of Liriano being an ace? He's a guy who has flashed talent amid a sea of putridity the last four years. That's what he is...quit polishing the turd, you don't have to. Even turds can find innings with this team's pitching, let's save the polish for someone who actually earned it.

Nick Nelson
11-28-2012, 04:44 PM
Anyone who wants to focus on his "brilliance" is doing nothing more than cherry-picking. Obviously this team has worse options to gamble on if the price is right, but can we please, please stop this cave-man analysis of Liriano being an ace?
No one is doing that. The extremes on this thread lean in the other direction. Liriano has been one of the best strikeout pitchers in the league over the past few years, and that is a fact that some of us feel is worth gambling on (at the right price) compared to the other no-upside trash that is likely to be available in that range. No need to continue with your typical hyperbole and exaggeration.

TheLeviathan
11-28-2012, 04:56 PM
No one is doing that. The extremes on this thread lean in the other direction. Liriano has been one of the best strikeout pitchers in the league over the past few years, and that is a fact that some of us feel is worth gambling on (at the right price) compared to the other no-upside trash that is likely to be available in that range. No need to continue with your typical hyperbole and exaggeration.

I'm sorry, should I quote you? That's exactly what you're doing and you got called out for it quite effectively by another poster. It's perfectly reasonable to dismiss Liriano - he's been one of hte worst starters in the AL for 3 out of 4 years. No one is "forgetting" about his brief stints of brilliance, it's just not important when by and large he's not just bad, he's terrible. So for you to waltz in and accuse others of "forgetting" his brilliance to criticize their feelings about him is pretty damn stupid. You can lob insults at me about it if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't make it less true.

Strikeouts are great - they are usually a great indicator of a pitcher's ability to control a game. Unfortunately, they are not nearly as important as the results put on the board and Liriano's have been consistently awful for most of the last four years. If anyone is "forgetting" anything, it's on your end. People have every right to be generally negative about this guy - his performance has earned it. That doesn't need to stop you from suggesting he's a turd worth buying for the right price, but your tact to do so was woefully pathetic.

one_eyed_jack
11-28-2012, 05:41 PM
At a reasonable 1-year deal, it's worth a shot. I was as frustrated as anyone with him last year, but when you're in the situation the Twins are in, needing not just 1 starter but 3 or 4, you've got to at least consider him.

If he doesn't work out, deal him for whatever you can get at the deadline or move him to the bullpen.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 06:13 PM
[QUOTE=If he doesn't work out, deal him for whatever you can get at the deadline or move him to the bullpen.[/QUOTE]

Okay we did that last year. He hasnt worked out well for us, not only did he do terrible for us but the white sox as well, this guy is a headcase. Not worth any money at all!

LaBombo
11-28-2012, 06:53 PM
Ryan knows they're not going to contend. His short-term goal is to put a more respectable team on the field to help stop the terrible slide in attendance. I'm not sure how Ryan helps achieve that goal by bringing back a guy who was viewed by most fans as an abject failure the past two seasons.

In fact, it seems like a bit of a PR blunder to admit they're seriously thinking about.it. Just signals to the public that they've given up on 2013 already and are just looking for warm bodies to fill the holes.

ashburyjohn
11-28-2012, 07:02 PM
Maybe they have interest in him as a SS? LOL

You put Butera in the rotation and let Frankie be the 3rd catcher.

Top Gun
11-28-2012, 07:04 PM
FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal reports that B.J Upton's deal with the Braves is for five years and $75.25 million.

The contract will be made official once Upton passes a physical, and the 28-year-old outfielder will be introduced at a press conference on Thursday afternoon at Turner Field. Upton also drew serious interest this offseason from the Phillies, Nationals, Giants and Rangers, but the Braves' final offer beat them all. It should be a good fit, and Upton should remain a top fantasy outfielder.
Related: Braves (http://twinsdaily.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/atl/braves)

Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/273920774874726400)

Nick Nelson
11-28-2012, 07:10 PM
I'm sorry, should I quote you? That's exactly what you're doing and you got called out for it quite effectively by another poster.

Sure, quote me. How about the part where I referred to Liriano as a back-of-the-rotation starter and not a safe bet? Just because you want to jump to one extreme doesn't mean you need to cast me in the other. I recognize that Liriano has performed badly overall in the last two seasons. There's a perfectly good chance he will do so again this year, as is the case with Feldman, Baker, or any other pitcher we're categorizing here.

But I think it is folly to overlook the fact that Liriano has had extended stretches in each of the past three seasons where he has been one of the most dominant pitchers in the league. We're talking two-month stretches. There aren't many bad pitchers capable of repeatedly doing that, and while you're completely correct in stating that his hot streaks have been outweighed by his struggles, the thought of him maintaining a groove like that for most of a season is not as unfathomable as you make it seem. He did so in 2010, and he's still only 29.

Why has Liriano been allowed to throw 620 innings over the last four years despite being "one of the worst starters in the AL," and why will he get paid this offseason? Because anyone can see that he's got talent. And you bet on talent, especially when you have an extraordinary shortage of it.

Willihammer
11-28-2012, 07:10 PM
If you want to look at ERA, both Peavy and AJ Burnett were worse than Liriano in 2011, and 2010. Some guys rebound every year.

Feldman, Santana, Wolf, Francis, Lowe - all are coming off worse seasons that Liriano in terms of ERA. So a 4-5m flyer on Liriano would not be out of line from what the market is shaping up to be for these guys.

Top Gun
11-28-2012, 07:13 PM
Francisco Liriano was impressive again in Wednesday’s loss to the Orioles, allowing two runs on four hits and a pair of walks while striking out 10 over six innings.

It’s the second straight game that Liriano has punched out 10 or more hitters, as he set down a season-high 15 against the A’s over the weekend. He’s been nothing short of spectacular since returning to the Twins' rotation on May 30, going 3-4 with a 2.84 ERA and 77/28 K/BB ratio over 63 1/3 innings. It’s looking increasingly likely that Liriano will be moved before the trade deadline. And he just keeps helping his value.



Jul 18 - 11:01 PM I say once you master that talent you own it!

TheLeviathan
11-28-2012, 07:24 PM
Sure, quote me. How about the part where I referred to Liriano as a back-of-the-rotation starter and not a safe bet? Just because you want to jump to one extreme doesn't mean you need to cast me in the other.

You put yourself there. You implied that everyone was intentionally forgetting his successes to hate on him. You can look at the full picture and still be emotionally fed up and exhausted with the guy. That's why you're in that corner, not because myself or anyone else magically put you there but because you put yourself there with flimsy criticism of a perfectly valid position.

I'm emotionally fed up and exhausted with him, but I'm not opposed to gambling on him. (So, in other words, I don't disagree with you) But my emotional exhaustion and frustration with him is perfectly valid even if I remember his good stretches. And it's perfectly valid for others to not want him back. You called it out like people are being unfair to him and it was pointed out to you that plenty of stats validate that opinion. You then went on a cherry-pick to back up your invalid insinuation.

At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.

LaBombo
11-28-2012, 07:31 PM
Why has Liriano been allowed to throw 620 innings over the last four years despite being "one of the worst starters in the AL," and why will he get paid this offseason?

Question 1) Because he pitched for an organization whose dreadfully inept GM's four year reign of terror left the team so utterly bankrupt of pitching that the net result of his tenure was indistinguishable from sabotage? Question 2) For the same reason people flock to casinos? Or drink and drive?

Did I guess right?

Top Gun
11-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Angels claimed INF Thomas Field off waivers from the Twins.

The Twins had just claimed Field off waivers from the Rockies earlier this month. The 25-year-old has been mostly been at Triple-A the last couple years, where he batted .246/.315/.400 with eight homers this past season. He could compete for a bench job in spring trianing.

twinsnorth49
11-28-2012, 09:07 PM
It's amazing to me how quickly people forget Liriano's stretches of brilliance over the past three years. Has he been frustrating? Yes. But the guy has legitimate talent and that's in short supply here. When you're looking for a guy on a low-cost one-year deal, you're going to have to accept some frustration and downside. We're talking about one of the league's best strikeout pitchers who is in the prime of his career.

It's amazing to me how you can forget how utterly useless he has been in between his brief bouts with "brilliance" over the last 3 years.

His legitimate talent is in far too short supply.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-28-2012, 09:11 PM
It's amazing to me how quickly people forget Liriano's stretches of brilliance over the past three years. Has he been frustrating? Yes. But the guy has legitimate talent and that's in short supply here. When you're looking for a guy on a low-cost one-year deal, you're going to have to accept some frustration and downside. We're talking about one of the league's best strikeout pitchers who is in the prime of his career.

It's amazing to me how you can forget how utterly useless he has been in between his brief bouts with "brilliance" over the last 3 years.

His legitimate talent is in far too short supply.

His lack of confidence outweighs his talent. Total headcase.

jokin
11-28-2012, 09:17 PM
Sure, quote me. How about the part where I referred to Liriano as a back-of-the-rotation starter and not a safe bet? Just because you want to jump to one extreme doesn't mean you need to cast me in the other.

You put yourself there. You implied that everyone was intentionally forgetting his successes to hate on him. You can look at the full picture and still be emotionally fed up and exhausted with the guy. That's why you're in that corner, not because myself or anyone else magically put you there but because you put yourself there with flimsy criticism of a perfectly valid position.

I'm emotionally fed up and exhausted with him, but I'm not opposed to gambling on him. (So, in other words, I don't disagree with you) But my emotional exhaustion and frustration with him is perfectly valid even if I remember his good stretches. And it's perfectly valid for others to not want him back. You called it out like people are being unfair to him and it was pointed out to you that plenty of stats validate that opinion. You then went on a cherry-pick to back up your invalid insinuation.

At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.

Egad, this is NN in full "I support Brian Duensing for No. 3 Starter redux mode (except when I don't support him)".

Nick casted his own self in both extremes on that particular case.

Kobs
11-29-2012, 08:55 AM
I can just imagine being a Pohlad when Terry Ryan is updating me on his plan to improve the team, and this is his best idea. "How much am I paying you?"

StormJH1
11-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Alright, easy on Nick. I disagreed with his overall position on Liriano, but it's not like he's being totally unreasonable.

I just think it's a moot point because there will be some money for Liriano somewhere, and in order for him to end up back on the Twins, both Terry Ryan AND Liriano would have to want that to happen. Oh, and the money has to be there for him. I'm not sure ANY of those 3 things are true, despite the recent reports about the Twins' interest.

Lots of pitchers have had flashes of brilliance and completely lost it due to physical or mental breakdown. Ubaldo Jimenez was nearly a Cy Young winner in 2010, but then he started sucking, got traded, threw at Tulowitzki in the preseason over contract jealousy and was as bad (or worse) than Liriano last season.

I'm prepared to be wrong about Liriano - I honestly won't be shocked or terribly jealous if he goes somewhere else and has a successful year. Sometimes you just need to move in another direction.

Shane Wahl
11-29-2012, 09:44 AM
Did I really not drunkenly post in this thread last night? How did I miss it?

I cannot imagine why Twins fans would want to reload with players who aren't very good, especially those who have been bad for the Twins. Liriano, outside of 2006 and 2010 has been bad. Sorry. There is no other way around that. This team is useless if it shells out $6 million for Frankie and $3 million for Pavano instead of spending $9 million on a good pitcher. They could also take the view that Blackburn is sunk garbage cost that will be gone after 2013, so they could be willing to spend more. 2 of Marcum, Blanton, and Myers could be had for $15 million or so, and Myers and Marcum may only require one-year deals.

It's as though people have forgotten the performances of Twins players in the past few years.

TheLeviathan
11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
Um 15m probably isnt going to get you those three arms.

old nurse
11-29-2012, 09:53 AM
Um 15m probably isnt going to get you those three arms.

Your bad, he said 2 of the three.. 17-18 million might be more of the figure per year needed to sign them.

Nick Nelson
11-29-2012, 09:55 AM
At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.
You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available on cheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago.

You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years.

I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless.


Egad, this is NN in full "I support Brian Duensing for No. 3 Starter redux mode (except when I don't support him)".

Nick casted his own self in both extremes on that particular case.
It's odd to me that you would continue to push this (proven) false narrative six months later but hey, whatever floats your boat dude.

jokin
11-29-2012, 09:57 AM
At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.
You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available on cheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago.

You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years.

I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless.


Egad, this is NN in full "I support Brian Duensing for No. 3 Starter redux mode (except when I don't support him)".

Nick casted his own self in both extremes on that particular case.
It's odd to me that you would continue to push this (proven) false narrative six months later but hey, whatever floats your boat dude.

Actually, I demonstrated that it was true. What say you about Duensing now?

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 10:04 AM
Actually, I demonstrated that it was true. What say you about Duensing now?

I've posted with Nick and argued with him for a half decade now. He was one of the first people off the "Duensing as starter" bandwagon way back in 2010 or so. You're grossly misrepresenting his point and you're doing it intentionally.

When the Twins were awful, did Nick support Duensing in the rotation? Yeah, we ALL did because the other options were so dreadful that they made the team completely unwatchable. Nick didn't want Duensing in the rotation, he reluctantly admitted that Brian was less awful than the Twins' other choices. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. While nobody wants to take a kick in the nuts or the shin, if you're forced to choose one or the other, you take the kick in the shins because it hurts less. It doesn't mean you walk around town with a "Please kick me in the shins" t-shirt because you love it so much. Christ.

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:21 AM
At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.
You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available oncheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago.

You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years.

I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless.


I can unemotionally agree with you and state unequivocally that his "struggles" have more than just "overshadowed his strengths" since 2009. I can also unequivocally state that he has far more repeatedly shown an ability to not just merely suck, but year-in, year-out constantly vie for the most WTF??? outings of any starting pitcher in all of baseball.

You talk about falling into an emotional argument--? Face it, the guy is an emotional basket case, demonstrably uncoachable and an extreme distraction at all times to his teammates and coaching staff.

As the other poster has stated, on a strictly business-decision-basis, divorced from the reality of the scorched earth he leaves in a club's bullpen, it can be argued that signing him for flipping purposes in yet another lost season in 2013 is worth rebuilding that burnt bridge with a temporary pontoon bridge. Just don't let your other young impressionable pitchers trod on that flimsy structure when it inevitably blows up with Liriano on it, replete with another 8.00 ERA midseason performance on yet another trip across the lake and back to the bullpen to "work out his mechanics".

mike wants wins
11-29-2012, 10:26 AM
Nope, many of us did not support Duensing as a starter last year. It was a bad decision. It gave away effective innings in games they could win, while not really increasing the likelihood of winning games he started instead of a bad pitcher.

Frankly, they should sign 1 very good starter, add him to Diamond, and use relievers for the other 60 percent of the starts, each pitching 2 or 3 innings. Since they are unlikely to acquire 3 legit starters. But they are not innovative enough to do that.

jokin
11-29-2012, 10:49 AM
Actually, I demonstrated that it was true. What say you about Duensing now?

I've posted with Nick and argued with him for a half decade now. He was one of the first people off the "Duensing as starter" bandwagon way back in 2010 or so. You're grossly misrepresenting his point and you're doing it intentionally.

When the Twins were awful, did Nick support Duensing in the rotation? Yeah, we ALL did because the other options were so dreadful that they made the team completely unwatchable. Nick didn't want Duensing in the rotation, he reluctantly admitted that Brian was less awful than the Twins' other choices. It's not a difficult concept to grasp. While nobody wants to take a kick in the nuts or the shin, if you're forced to choose one or the other, you take the kick in the shins because it hurts less. It doesn't mean you walk around town with a "Please kick me in the shins" t-shirt because you love it so much. Christ.

Actually, if you do the research, he was advocating for Duensing when the Twins were on their "mini-hot streak" in May/June and you guys looking to write stuff pretended the Twins could still make a run at the Central Division when they cut the lead to 8 games. Look it up.

You are rewriting history to some extent. I did some archival research at the time and there was some giddy optimisim present at TD last June- though the season was lost from day one and only certain people in Twins management and TD were in denial of that fact. SP depth was an ever-present problem and wasn't sufficiently addressed as the Twins chose instead, to cut payroll in the 2011 offseason. By mid-May the Twins FO should have accepted the state they were in with the SP and stuck with trying out youngsters and taking the inevitable poundings and they could also have gone to a 3x3 inning pitching matrix when appropriate.

The result of which by forcing Brian's round peg into Gardy's square hole in his head, Duensing went from having a great season and enhancing his future value to being wholly physically unprepared for his statistical-peripherals- predictable and inevitable collapse as a starter. As you said- and I concurred at the time- and told him he was better than what he was writing- Nick wrote as such about what the Dunce brought to the table in 2011 as well as 2010/

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 11:05 AM
Actually, if you do the research, he was advocating for Duensing when the Twins were on their "mini-hot streak" in May/June and you guys looking to write stuff pretended the Twins could still make a run at the Central Division when they cut the lead to 8 games. Look it up.

You are rewriting history to some extent. I did some archival research at the time and there was some giddy optimisim present at TD last June- though the season was lost from day one and only certain people in Twins management and TD were in denial of that fact. SP depth was an ever-present problem and wasn't sufficiently addressed as the Twins chose instead, to cut payroll in the 2011 offseason. By mid-May the Twins FO should have accepted the state they were in with the SP and stuck with trying out youngsters and taking the inevitable poundings and they could also have gone to a 3x3 inning pitching matrix when appropriate.

The result of which by forcing Brian's round peg into Gardy's square hole in his head, Duensing went from having a great season and enhancing his future value to being wholly physically unprepared for his statistical-peripherals- predictable and inevitable collapse as a starter. As you said- and I concurred at the time- and told him he was better than what he was writing- Nick wrote as such about what the Dunce brought to the table in 2011 as well as 2010/

I went and did the research. Searched through every blog post Nick wrote with the words "Brian Duensing" in the post. These were the glowing accolades I found:


Anthony Swarzak has been working long relief and could be stretched out quickly, but he's best suited for where he's at. The same goes for Brian Duensing, who really seems to have found his calling as a lefty specialist.

Last spring, I bemoaned (http://www.nickstwinsblog.com/2011/03/done-deal.html) Ron Gardenhire's decision to hand Duensing a spot in the rotation, reasoning that his success as a starter in 2010 was unsustainable and that facing righty-stacked starting lineups would eventually do him in. Sure enough, the lefty had a tough year in the rotation, finishing with a 5.23 ERA and 1.52 WHIP.

When stacked up against the likes of Blackburn, Brian Duensing, Cole De Vries, Liam Hendriks, P.J. Walters and others, Deduno is far more likely to issue a walk but also far less likely to give up a hit or home run. At the end of the day, that might make him a more effective pitcher.

Brian Duensing and Matt Maloney, like Swarzak, are pitchers with a history of starting who are better suited for relief roles.

Brian Duensing continues to excel as a lefty specialist, and several guys have emerged in the minors as possible blocks with which to build around those three

Brian Duensing. His struggles as a starter (6.92 ERA) and success as a reliever (2.98 ERA) should have the Twins convinced of what his role needs to be.
Oh, wait. Here we go. Here is Nick showering Duensing with accolades.


Brian Duensing. His extreme vulnerability against right-handed hitters makes him a far better option in the bullpen, but Duensing is a solid pitcher and he has quietly turned in a 3.77 ERA in four starts since rejoining the rotation at the end of July.

Or maybe not.

CDog
11-29-2012, 11:22 AM
At this point, in my eyes, you can make a fair case to gamble on him. But you can also make a fair case to leave that bridge burnt. So implying people are leaving out information or ignoring details to be in the latter position is just nonsense.
You're going a little over the top with these "implications" you have me making. It's nothing so sinister. All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available on cheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago.

You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years.

I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless.


Egad, this is NN in full "I support Brian Duensing for No. 3 Starter redux mode (except when I don't support him)".

Nick casted his own self in both extremes on that particular case.
It's odd to me that you would continue to push this (proven) false narrative six months later but hey, whatever floats your boat dude.

WHAT?!?! Leviathian misrepresenting something someone said so he could argue against the fictional, non-existent point??? Jokin exaggerating/lying to go on a negative rant for some unknown purpose??? Huh...must be a day that ends in 'y'...again.

Boom Boom
11-29-2012, 11:39 AM
If anyone has a photo of a derailed train handy, now might be a good time to post it.

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 11:41 AM
If anyone has a photo of a derailed train handy, now might be a good time to post it.

Welcome to the offseason. At least this isn't BYTO, where any derailed thread had at least a 75% chance of descending into photos of overweight women in Halloween costumes.

snepp
11-29-2012, 01:10 PM
You're grossly misrepresenting his point and you're doing it intentionally.

He's in full-on dankind mode when it comes to Nick and Duensing.

Riverbrian
11-29-2012, 01:28 PM
Personally... I don't want Liriano... I recognize his stuff and Do think its possible that he puts it together somewhere... Just not in Minnesota. The conclusion I have drawn from watching him is... Hole digger!!!

Too many holes personally dug by him for the team to climb out of. I'd rather have the guy who gives up a run or two to often than the guy who gives up 5 in an inning to often.

To contradict myself in the same post... I don't have a problem signing the guy for real low money because we need to acquire arms and lots of them... but we gotta have a clear exit strategy should he implode again. IE... He is cut or into the bullpen within a month of failure...

and to contradict myself again... We need to take a chance or two on guys like Liriano... I'd rather take that chance on Hochever because at least he will be a fresh face struggling.

birdwatcher
11-29-2012, 02:19 PM
Yeah, that jokin. What a class act.

Nick, the argument I'd make against signing Liriano is that it's almost completely predictable that he'll go into a long, long streak where he unravels. As emotionally distraught as some fans get, think of how much this shatters the bullpen for game after game. How it increases the prospects for injury. And the emotional toll on everyone else on the team should be considered. So, while Liriano has more upside, he has less reliability.

And, I'd be willing to bet that Pedro Hernandez and Samuel Deduno will both outperform him, especially in terms of quality starts and innings pitched per start.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 03:41 PM
If anyone has a photo of a derailed train handy, now might be a good time to post it.

Welcome to the offseason. At least this isn't BYTO, where any derailed thread had at least a 75% chance of descending into photos of overweight women in Halloween costumes.

You rang?2770

Brock Beauchamp
11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
I set you up for that, Dave. I'm only disappointed that it took you so long to respond.

luke829
11-29-2012, 04:15 PM
If anyone has a photo of a derailed train handy, now might be a good time to post it.

http://gmfranci.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/train-derail-31.jpg

Would this suffice?

Kobs
11-29-2012, 04:23 PM
Every pitcher in baseball has a good outing or two on occasion. It is the nature of the game. Drew Butera had a .732 ops in May last year.

Even with his sporadic "brilliance," his numbers prove he is a very bad pitcher.

TheLeviathan
11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
All I was doing was calling attention to the fact that Liriano has repeatedly shown an ability to dominate, which I believe you're unlikely to find among other pitchers available on cheap-ish one-year deals in this market. This is a guy who was a Game 1 postseason starter two years ago.

Again, if you want to play the cherry-picking game it works for virtually anyone. Kobs did a nice job pointing that out. You're basically denying the lionshare of the evidence to focus on a few things to tell people their reactions are too strong. I look at the body of work and think their reactions are pretty vindicated. That doesn't make you wrong, but it sure as hell means your line of criticism is.

The reason Liriano is worth a gamble isn't his brief moments of brilliance. It's the steaming pile of garbage we have for current options. That's the only reason the suggestion is palatable.


You admit that your frustration with him is tied up in emotion, and that's sort of my point. I believe that his struggles overshadow his strengths in the minds of many fans who have watched it all unfold. As Pseudo pointed out, he's the kind of upside play that the vast majority of people would be on board with if they hadn't experienced his downside up close over these last few years.

I wasn't criticizing the viewpoint that he shouldn't be brought back so much as the viewpoints that he's terrible and useless.

"Useless" is relative. He is useful, potentially, to us because we can afford to give him time to be terrible and hope to get lucky. But he has, in fact, been pretty terrible. (Just because we kept running him out doesn't make him a good pitcher. See: Nick Blackburn) We've been hearing the same mantra on him for 4 years - at some point you are what you are. Arguing with the bulk of results is really quite ridiculous. If someone charged in here trying to argue Nick Punto was an all-star because of his track record on partly cloudy Saturdays you'd rightfully run them out. What you're doing is not that much different - you're shunning the much larger results to concentrate on a few that you want to lord over people you don't agree with. The only reason your argument makes any sense has little to anything to do with Liriano and everything to do with our dearth of other options.

And, even then, it starts to look a whole lot less reasonable when you admit he's like to get 6+ million to get him. Baker's looking mighty nice these days at 5 isn't he?

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-29-2012, 04:59 PM
I set you up for that, Dave. I'm only disappointed that it took you so long to respond.

I couldn't find it for a while, I used to keep pulling it from the BYTO wiki. Had to go back to a buddies myspace profile to find it haha, also I was shocked to find that myspace is still around!

jctwins
11-29-2012, 05:19 PM
It looks like consensus is that Liriano sucks.

ashburyjohn
11-30-2012, 01:00 PM
I can just imagine being a Pohlad when Terry Ryan is updating me on his plan to improve the team, and this is his best idea. "How much am I paying you?"

Insert Argo quip here.

Nick Nelson
11-30-2012, 05:27 PM
Every pitcher in baseball has a good outing or two on occasion. It is the nature of the game. Drew Butera had a .732 ops in May last year.
Sure. That isn't what we're talking about here.


Even with his sporadic "brilliance," his numbers prove he is a very bad pitcher.
His career numbers would in fact suggest that he is roughly an average pitcher, as would his fielding-independent metrics from the past two years.