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jorgenswest
11-20-2012, 08:47 PM
As the Twins watch the Tigers and Royals commit multiyear contracts to decline phase players, the Twins have an opportunity to play the other end.

Guthrie will be 34 with dropping K rates. The Royals will be lucky to get one good year. His signing is great news for the Twins.

The Tigers signing of Hunter is also great news. I would bet the Twins get better production out of Hicks or Arcia in 2014 at 13 million less.

Why not take the opportunity to get younger this year? The Twins should not join others in making these commitments. Instead they should go the opposite direction.

They should trade aging veteran assets for pitching or middle infield prospects. If given the choice of a major league ready player or a higher ceiling player that might be ready for AA, let's go with the higher ceiling.

They should wait out the fee agent market. The good news about the larger number of pitchers on the market is that some will be left at the end. I think the geek suggested last year that the Twins should have waited out the free agent relief pitchers rather than signing Matt Capps early. They could have found a bargain. This year there are numerous starters. Let's wait out the market and sign a few pitchers to a one year deals at the end of the market. If it works out well, those pitchers can be flipped for prospects at the trade deadline.

Yes. They will lose more games this year than last.

It will also be the first step towards long term success.

They went young in the early 80s with the youngest rosters in organizational history and it paid off from 1987-1992.

They went young again in 1999. That pay off period closed in 2010.

Do you have patience to wait for the next pay off? I fear that the Twins management believes that we can not wait. I fear they will make moves that may nudge the Twins closer to .500 but also continue the current cycle of mediocrity.

Is there anyone else out there hoping that the Twins do not make the kinds of free agent moves that so many others are recommending or even demanding?

Willihammer
11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
They should trade aging veteran assets for pitching or middle infield prospects.

Do you have a trade in mind?

Top Gun
11-20-2012, 09:22 PM
The Twins can do both. they an sign a top of the line FA pitcher for 6 or more years and still wait out another FA pitcher. They just can't afford again to go cheap and wait 2 or 3 more years to improve there team.

mike wants wins
11-20-2012, 09:58 PM
What payoff? They have no pitchers, none.

70charger
11-21-2012, 12:33 AM
I think this is an interesting post, and an interesting idea. I think you're on to something that many of the impatient people here aren't really picking up on. Take the bold-moving Blue Jays this year. They're seeing that the Yankees are old and getting worse, the Red Sox completely cleaned house, the Orioles are lucky like you wouldn't believe, and the Rays are always shedding payroll. For them, it's now or never. Similar to the Tigers last year - they saw a really bad AL Central with a 99-loss Twins team, a Cleveland team that was projected to be even worse than the Twins, a Sux team that was shaky at best, and the Royals are just the Royals. The saw an opportunity and they took it.

I think you might be right that the Twins' opportunity is later on. It's going to be tough to compete with the Tigers until age, payroll, and Price Fielder's massive fat rolls catch up to them. I'm not advocating completely punting on the 13 and/or 14 season, because I think shrewd moves and a little luck could make for a surprising run. But I like the idea of getting younger.

70charger
11-21-2012, 12:35 AM
What payoff? They have no pitchers, none.

He said "get younger," not use our players and only our players. We can trade for, claim, or acquire pitchers, but they shouldn't be over the hill innings eaters on the downslope. Clearly, if your system has only outfielders, something must be done. That has nothing at all to do with getting younger and exploiting an opportunity.

Read. Understand. Post.

glunn
11-21-2012, 12:48 AM
I think this is an interesting post, and an interesting idea. I think you're on to something that many of the impatient people here aren't really picking up on. Take the bold-moving Blue Jays this year. They're seeing that the Yankees are old and getting worse, the Red Sox completely cleaned house, the Orioles are lucky like you wouldn't believe, and the Rays are always shedding payroll. For them, it's now or never. Similar to the Tigers last year - they saw a really bad AL Central with a 99-loss Twins team, a Cleveland team that was projected to be even worse than the Twins, a Sux team that was shaky at best, and the Royals are just the Royals. The saw an opportunity and they took it.

I think you might be right that the Twins' opportunity is later on. It's going to be tough to compete with the Tigers until age, payroll, and Price Fielder's massive fat rolls catch up to them. I'm not advocating completely punting on the 13 and/or 14 season, because I think shrewd moves and a little luck could make for a surprising run. But I like the idea of getting younger.

I agree with this, and you said it well.

beckmt
11-21-2012, 06:59 AM
Point being missed here is that the Tigers have good and relitivly young pitching. That is what wins games and titles. My tigers projections has them being relivant for the next 4 - 5 years. That could be too long to wait. I am all in favor of getting younger, but you also have to put fans in the seats. Moves are needed as some chances taken. Trades need to be made and I think they will. But to hope the Tigers are a 2 - 3 year deal is a pipe dream.

birdwatcher
11-21-2012, 08:41 AM
Why can't they: 1) get a little younger right away, 2) solve the starting pitching problem to a large extent right now, 3) be "competitive" (.500) in 2013, and 4) start the youth movement in late 2013 with Hendriks, Gibson, Hicks, Arcia, etc.?

How? Trade for one #2-3 starter (Span, Morneau, Willingham as chips), sign another #2-3 FA starter, pull a "Ryan" for a third starter in the #4-5 category. Fill the rotation out with Diamond, Gibson, Hendriks (who is going to be pretty good IMO), Deduno, etc.

Not embarrassing in 2013, fun to watch by 2014, and in contention with the Royals by 2015 when Detroit, which REALLY has no farm system, Chicago, which REALLY has no farm system, and Cleveland, which has a much much thinner farm system than the Twins, all fade behind.

Jim Crikket
11-21-2012, 09:04 AM
It dumbfounds me that people think it must be either one OR the other. That the Twins can't make moves for pitchers that will both improve the product on the field this year AND be around a couple of years from now when the next wave of top position players arrive. You're going to want some kind of veteran presence on the team when those young guys get to Target Field beyond just Joe Mauer.

sorney
11-21-2012, 09:21 AM
It dumbfounds me that people think it must be either one OR the other. That the Twins can't make moves for pitchers that will both improve the product on the field this year AND be around a couple of years from now when the next wave of top position players arrive. You're going to want some kind of veteran presence on the team when those young guys get to Target Field beyond just Joe Mauer.



Agree. Never understood the either OR stance.
I keep going back to the future is never guaranteed...and purposely constructing a roster for 2015 while ignoring the present takes some big stones...because if they are wrong about the talent (or the talent stalls/gets injured/whatever), Target Field is going to be pretty empty

one_eyed_jack
11-21-2012, 02:11 PM
Point being missed here is that the Tigers have good and relitivly young pitching. That is what wins games and titles. My tigers projections has them being relivant for the next 4 - 5 years. That could be too long to wait. I am all in favor of getting younger, but you also have to put fans in the seats. Moves are needed as some chances taken. Trades need to be made and I think they will. But to hope the Tigers are a 2 - 3 year deal is a pipe dream.

---When you're talking more than 1-2 years out, is ceases to be a "projection", and amounts to little more than pure speculation. There are too many variables. 2006 was 5 years ago. Think of all the things that happened between 2006 and this year with the Twins. Success is not guaranteed from year-to-year, never mind 5 years out.

And why is everyone talking about the Tigers like they are this insurmountable obstacle? Yeah they got hot for a couple of series in October. But let's not forget that they finished with the 7th best record in the AL, despite playing in what was by far the weakest division in baseball, and wouldn't have even made the playoffs but for a late-season meltdown by the Whiteys. They were abysmal defensively last year, and don't figure to be much better next year. They are still a top-heavy stars-and-scrubs team. They may be one or two players away from joining the league's top teams, but they are also one or two key injuries away from being bottom-feeders again.

The AL Central is going to be weak again, it shouldn't take much for the Twins to at least be in the mix in 2013.

one_eyed_jack
11-21-2012, 02:17 PM
It dumbfounds me that people think it must be either one OR the other. That the Twins can't make moves for pitchers that will both improve the product on the field this year AND be around a couple of years from now when the next wave of top position players arrive. You're going to want some kind of veteran presence on the team when those young guys get to Target Field beyond just Joe Mauer.

---Yeah the win-now or build-for-tomorrow is a false dichotomy that's thrown out way too often. It doesn't have to be an either/or. The Twins should always be looking to improve themselves now and beyond.

IMO, when you start to concede seasons because you've got some grand plan to start winning 3 or 4 years down the road, you're sending the message that it doesn't matter whether you win now or not because you're not trying or expecting to win, and that breeds a culture of losing.

Look at the Royals and Pirates who have been trying to "rebuild" under these multi-year schemes for 2 decades now. I view "we're rebuilding" as nothing more than a euphemism for "we suck".

Brad Swanson
11-21-2012, 02:34 PM
It dumbfounds me that people think it must be either one OR the other. That the Twins can't make moves for pitchers that will both improve the product on the field this year AND be around a couple of years from now when the next wave of top position players arrive. You're going to want some kind of veteran presence on the team when those young guys get to Target Field beyond just Joe Mauer.

---Yeah the win-now or build-for-tomorrow is a false dichotomy that's thrown out way too often. It doesn't have to be an either/or. The Twins should always be looking to improve themselves now and beyond.

IMO, when you start to concede seasons because you've got some grand plan to start winning 3 or 4 years down the road, you're sending the message that it doesn't matter whether you win now or not because you're not trying or expecting to win, and that breeds a culture of losing.

Look at the Royals and Pirates who have been trying to "rebuild" under these multi-year schemes for 2 decades now. I view "we're rebuilding" as nothing more than a euphemism for "we suck".

But isn't this all just perception? Wouldn't you rather follow a rebuilding team than a sucky team?

I agree that you can build for the present and future at the same time, but it is a lot harder to do so. Focusing energy on one or the other just allocates the resources to one area, rather than trying to make sure every move fits both the short term and big picture. I think that is why most teams take one avenue or the other. Those that want the Twins to pick one lane or the other are simply playing the odds, in my mind.

mike wants wins
11-21-2012, 02:36 PM
I actually am pretty good at reading, but I appreciate your advice. They have no pitching in the minors either. And trading all their players away for more guys that are 3+ years away, that is hardly a guarantee on the future. I agree with the above, there is no either or, you can roll the die on doing both. But if that die comes up a 1, then you have to be willing to trade veterans (like they did not the last two years) at some point. But there is no reason to punt for 2-3 years, not while you are paying Mauer this much money.

TheLeviathan
11-21-2012, 04:38 PM
I think people keep having these arguments because no one ever distinguishes priorities. I agree that the Twins should be in on signing starting pitching this offseason if it has either a very short term window (for trade value) or a long-term window to be part of the team's wave of offensive prospects. But the priority has to be maintaining a strong organization for the long haul and not be focused on improving 2013 at all costs. Any move that jeopardizes the long-term success (6 year contracts to 32 year old pitchers or anything of a similar ilk) needs to be avoided, even if it helps 2013.

I doubt many disagree with that, but it's hard to tell because we're arguing past each other most of the time.

jorgenswest
11-21-2012, 05:41 PM
It is a mistake to think that they can accomplish both.

Let's suppose that they can buy younger players by trading Morneau and picking up the bulk of his contract.

Do they seek a 25 year old major league ready pitcher with around a 2 WAR ceiling?

Do they seek a 21 year old higher ceiling player that may be ready for AA?

I want the high ceiling player. If the priority is 2013, they have to go the other direction.

I suggest they trade decline phase assets and add to the farm system. I suggest that they risk the playing time with unproven younger players. The young players that emerge will be the foundation for the next Twins team that wins a play off series.

birdwatcher
11-21-2012, 06:03 PM
Leviathan, you make sense to me. Except, I think a lot of fans are fine with the notion of six-year contracts to decline-phase players, since they can "afford" to think only about now. Ryan isn't going to make this mistake, especially with pitching. Hell, the chances of one rotation member having a career-ender during the season is about 100%. Detroit's rotation is formidable today, but with injuries, it could be pedestrian by 2014.

mike wants wins
11-21-2012, 07:21 PM
So if they punt on the next two years, and sell almost no tickets, how exactly will they have money to sign players to fill holes? And I'm curious, who are the pitchers in the minors that will be really good MLB pitchers in 2-3 years?

jorgenswest
11-21-2012, 09:00 PM
They can put Diamond, Gibson and Hendriks in the rotation next year. There are three that can all be a key part of a winning team in 2015.

They may struggle and the Twins must stick with them.

They stuck with Viola through two miserable years and 56 starts. Radke was awful his first year and gave up 40 home runs his second. They gave him 63 starts his first two years.

If either was in the current regime, they Twins probably would have bounced them around like they did with Hendriks. They may never have had the chance to develop.

I highly doubt the current regime would have taken a Santana in the rule 5. Doyle was much closer to major league ready. Santana was useless his first year. There wasn't any payoff until three years down the road.

one_eyed_jack
11-22-2012, 08:51 AM
2015? Really? So in response to 2 years of losing, we should willingly accept 2 more, then hope and pray that winning somehow materializes in year 3?

Sorry, that's too many steps down the slippery slope to Royals/Pirates perpetual rebuild mode for my taste.

And sticking with a young pitcher who consistently gets shelled for 2 seasons is no guarantee he'll turn into Frankie V. or Radke. Yes, many great players struggled early in their careers. But most struggling young players do not go on to greatness.

TheLeviathan
11-22-2012, 08:59 AM
Leviathan, you make sense to me. Except, I think a lot of fans are fine with the notion of six-year contracts to decline-phase players, since they can "afford" to think only about now. Ryan isn't going to make this mistake, especially with pitching. Hell, the chances of one rotation member having a career-ender during the season is about 100%. Detroit's rotation is formidable today, but with injuries, it could be pedestrian by 2014.

Which is fine, I don't think anyone is saying that we should completely tank next year but it's being interpreted that way. I think what most people mean is not to overcommitt assets with the view of competing in 2013.

70charger
11-22-2012, 11:40 AM
Leviathan, you make sense to me. Except, I think a lot of fans are fine with the notion of six-year contracts to decline-phase players, since they can "afford" to think only about now. Ryan isn't going to make this mistake, especially with pitching. Hell, the chances of one rotation member having a career-ender during the season is about 100%. Detroit's rotation is formidable today, but with injuries, it could be pedestrian by 2014.

Which is fine, I don't think anyone is saying that we should completely tank next year but it's being interpreted that way. I think what most people mean is not to overcommitt assets with the view of competing in 2013.

This is exactly true. I feel like an acknowledgment that the Twins, if they follow the get-younger plan, will probably take some serious lumps is just common sense. It doesn't mean that anybody has said that they shouldn't care about 2013/14, or that they don't want to win in 2013/14, or that they're completely giving up on those seasons, etc. It's just being misinterpreted that way.

On the other hand, if it turns out that some of our top minor-league assets are ready to rip it up in the majors ala Mike Trout, then who's really advocating punting on the season?

jorgenswest
11-22-2012, 12:07 PM
2015? Really? So in response to 2 years of losing, we should willingly accept 2 more, then hope and pray that winning somehow materializes in year 3?

Sorry, that's too many steps down the slippery slope to Royals/Pirates perpetual rebuild mode for my taste.

And sticking with a young pitcher who consistently gets shelled for 2 seasons is no guarantee he'll turn into Frankie V. or Radke. Yes, many great players struggled early in their careers. But most struggling young players do not go on to greatness.

Whenever the Twins decide to rebuild, it will take a few years of struggles with a young roster.

Signing decline phase players is an attempt to right the course is not rebuilding. The majority opinion on this site is that the Twins do not need to rebuild. They do not need to turn their decline phase assets into prospects not yet ready for the major leagues.

I advocate that they rebuild and would like to start the clock now.

The Twins have had three successful runs in Minnesota. All three had a foundation of very young rosters prior to the successful run.

trader t
11-22-2012, 02:42 PM
It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate

roger
11-22-2012, 03:59 PM
It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate

I try to not comment to most of these statements, however, this is just plain disrespectful to a man who has dedicated his life to the Minnesota Twins organization. I for one believe you owe Mr. Ryan an apology.

twinsnorth49
11-22-2012, 05:45 PM
It doesn't matter what the twins do. They have an idiot for a gm, and their scouts are wose than pee wee league players. All of the small market teams that either make the playoffs or come very close to making them every year, all have two things in common. A great general manger, and a superb scouting dept. Until we get them, I don't think I need to elaborate


Very insightful, allow me to elaborate on your post, http://www.websmileys.com/sm/obscene/eck15.gif

birdwatcher
11-22-2012, 05:48 PM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

birdwatcher
11-22-2012, 06:04 PM
Pitchers in the farm system who might possibly contribute to the rotation over the next two-three years: Kyle Gibson, Liam Hendriks, Alex Wimmers, Adrian Salcedo, BJ Hermsen, Pedro Hernandez, Logan Darnell, Madison Boer, Tom Stuiffbergen, Manuel Soliman, and the 2013 1st round pick, the 4th pick in the draft.

mike wants wins, we've had this discussion before. While you might say that none of these guys will likely be "really good", I'll say that it's likely that a few of them will be #2,#3,#4, and #5 starters. My bets are on Gibson (#2), Hendriks (#3), Wimmers (#3),Hermsen(#5), and this year's pick (#2). Now that's a far cry from YOUR statement that they have NO relly good pitching help coming up in the next 2-3 years.

So help me understand why this isn't an adequate explanation for why some of us are much more hopeful about the pitching pipeline.

Brock Beauchamp
11-22-2012, 06:13 PM
Pitchers in the farm system who might possibly contribute to the rotation over the next two-three years: Kyle Gibson, Liam Hendriks, Alex Wimmers, Adrian Salcedo, BJ Hermsen, Pedro Hernandez, Logan Darnell, Madison Boer, Tom Stuiffbergen, Manuel Soliman, and the 2013 1st round pick, the 4th pick in the draft.

mike wants wins, we've had this discussion before. While you might say that none of these guys will likely be "really good", I'll say that it's likely that a few of them will be #2,#3,#4, and #5 starters. My bets are on Gibson (#2), Hendriks (#3), Wimmers (#3),Hermsen(#5), and this year's pick (#2). Now that's a far cry from YOUR statement that they have NO relly good pitching help coming up in the next 2-3 years.

So help me understand why this isn't an adequate explanation for why some of us are much more hopeful about the pitching pipeline.

I'm hopeful of help in the next few years but outside of Gibson and Berrios (a longshot to even include on this list), the Twins' pitching prospects are not good in the short term. Could that change next season as one of the college arms taken in the past few drafts has a strong season and/or Wimmers comes back strong? Certainly. But it's a longshot and far from a sure thing. The Twins are not likely to field a competitive rotation from within the system in the next 3-4 years. There's no indication that will happen. You can hope but that hope isn't grounded in reality.

If the Twins assemble a pitching staff, it's going to be through one of three avenues:

1. Money. Free agents. Lots of 'em.
2. Shrewd trading by Ryan.
3. Dumb luck. Picking a few guys off the heap and getting ridiculously lucky with them.

One of those things can't be counted on. The other is unlikely given the Twins' history with free agents. Basically, the Twins need to get a fantastic return on one or all of Morneau, Willingham, and Span. That is the only way they're going to get a top of the rotation guy in the short term.

trader t
11-22-2012, 09:49 PM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

70charger
11-23-2012, 01:38 AM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

You suck at life.

beckmt
11-23-2012, 06:40 AM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?
Doumit, WIllingham, Burton, and Carroll were all relitivly successful signings. Marquis and Zumaya were not. That seems to be a positive success ratio. Pitching staff takes longer to fix. Trader t must realize that not everything works out well. At least TR has a successful track record, look no further than Kansas City if you want a failure. That is what not having a plan does. I have seem on other websites the fact that most of Kansas Cities good hitters are on the trading block. Looking for pitching no doubt. Pitching is sometimes luck or a great scouting department that does not miss(Tampa Bay). Twins are better than most in scouting. Give it some time. Problem with people like trader t is that they alway think the job is easy and they can do it. Almost all of them cannot.

birdwatcher
11-23-2012, 06:49 AM
Brock, I agree with you 100% that for 2013, we need a trade for a #2-3 starter, which means bye bye to Morneau and/or Span most likely: we need a surprise FA signing of a Marcum-type, and we need a trash heap sucess story or a Deduno shocker to go with Gibson, Diamond, and Hendriks.

My post about the farm system was in response to the frequent comments that the system has absolutely NO pitching help available in the next 2-3 years. It's true that the system is very thin in high ceiling pitching prospects above low A. But at the lower levels, people are going to be very pleasantly surprised by two years from now at the promise of a number of pitching prospects.

My argument has been that we can fix the current shortcomings enough to compete almost immediately via outside additions, and then rely on a wave of talent, pitching included, from the farm system in 2-3 years and beyond.

roger
11-23-2012, 08:57 AM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

Trader T, I am waiting for your apology to Mr. Ryan. He has earned our respect. Whether or not we agree with every move he makes, your comment about him was unrespectful and in poor taste. Step up and do the right thing!

Riverbrian
11-23-2012, 08:58 AM
trader t, who is really really smart, unlike Terry Ryan, will be unable to give us an example of a small market team that has made the playoffs or come very close to making them every year.

I will give Mr. Ryan his due. He is the biggest con man since P.T. Barnum!!! He is quoted last spring as saying he expected the twins to compete for the central division title. Now as for those incredible central division titles that we did win , remember how strong and mighty our division was. The twins would have been in last place in the eastern division.!! That makes Mr. Ryan a genious? Look at the studs he brought in last year. Jason Marquis. He sure put the fear in opposing batters. A part timer in Doumit? A shortstop who was ready for the baseball nursing home in Carrol? He did get some power from Willingham, but look at his batting average. Pitching and defense win championships!!! Where are they? We had the highest era in the al. we were tied for last in home runs in the al. We had a below average team batting average in the al. I almost forgot about our Japanese star,but then his performance was quite forgetable. Do I need to go on any further about Mr. Ryans genius?

The worst Generation is something I've been hearing. I'm not sure what to think when I hear "Worst Generation" because I am part of it. As a Generation X'er.. i am right in the middle of it.

Is the worst Generation... the Baby Boomer? X? Y? Right now we all go hand in hand.

There are individuals that I know who can make me shrug the comment off and say nothing wrong with this generation Y or X at all. Im an optimist.. I believe in people.

Just when I feel all optimistic about our Generation...

The Twin Towers come down and instead of bringing us together it actually divides us as the majority of our attention is turned toward a different part of the world with more oil.

We live through a time where everyone is entitled to a house I guess and everyone gets a house I guess. Not only does everyone get a house but with sheer greed added to it all... Profit was made on those sub prime mortgages down the line as Investment Agencies not only sold that debt to buyers two three times over... They also paid credit rating agencies to take the sub out of sub prime and the credit rating agencies did the deed and took the money. These Investment Agencies whose greed brought the world to the Financial edge... where it still sits today... were punished severely by being forced to take billions of our tax dollars. Our politicians are just as guilty in the financial mess because they live in the pocket of the investment banks. Our Politicians are severely punished by the incumbent re-election rate dropping from 94 to 85 percent.

While deciding what to do about it... Very few decisions are made because it appears that all Parties have put Party in front of Country and the filibuster has increased from rare to common. You don't even have to stand for hours and hours anymore reading a phone book from cover to cover. The entitled Generation is entitled to an easy and even less effective filibuster!!! Filibuster reform will just be filibustered.

Meanwhile... The guitar solo is gone from music and reality TV is making those Neilson Boxes ring and I'm complaining because my cell phone isn't downloading fast enough.

I start to pull myself out of this negative "kids these days" "worst generation" thinking. All Generations have problems... Brokaws Greatest Generation was born out of necessity because things got really bad with a depression and Hitler. Maybe Generation Y will be a great generation out of Necessity as well... Maybe Generation X... because things are getting bad again. You won't know until Generation Y gets a turn at power and a chance to lead.

Yeah.. That's right... I'm optimistic again... We've been in a hole before... We can get out of holes again...

Then I read the post from trader t... WE ARE the WORST GENERATION!!!

old nurse
11-23-2012, 09:16 AM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

trader t
11-23-2012, 09:57 AM
I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

roger
11-23-2012, 10:12 AM
I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

Where is your apology for what you called Mr. Ryan?

twinsnorth49
11-23-2012, 10:20 AM
I couldn't have asked for a more perfect example of the success of Mr. P.T. Barnum jr. Where did I say that the gm's job was easy and that I could do it? It's not easy at all and I wouldn't want it. The twins are not just in competition with other teams in the cent. div. It's the whole al. And when small market teams have to butt heads with the money teams, they need to have a little luck, but more importantly they need the best gm money can buy. I really cannot understand your argument. Pitching and defense wins championships!!!! The twins pitching and defense speak for themselves, which falls on the head of guess who.

Joe Mauer?

Riverbrian
11-23-2012, 10:39 AM
which falls on the head of guess who.

Burton Cummings?
Nikola Tesla?
Louie Anderson?

Are any of those 3 correct?

Siehbiscuit
11-23-2012, 10:51 AM
First point, pitching and defense does win championships. But if you look at Terry Ryans's track record, I believe the teams he has assembled in the past have won several AL Central titles. We may not always agree with him, but he is probably better at that job than any of us would be.

Secondly, I am one fan that thinks the Twins can have their cake and eat it too. If the Twins keep re-building and re-building, and trade off veterans we will have a poor MLB product for a while. Then in 2015 or so when our farm system bears its fruit to the MLB we will will have several years of cheap (potentially good, some growing pains) labor, but what happens when all of this young talent becomes arbitration eligible or ready for their FA pay day? If the re-building isn't a blend of veterans AND youth the Twins will be in this same cycle again. Around 2016-2020, the Twins could be winning the division again and be drafting in the mid to upper 20's year after year and missing out on the elite talent again. Doesn't this sound familiar?

Signing one solid starting pitcher via FA (Sanchez is my personal choice) for approximately 5 years is the first move I would make. Also, trading Span as his value is very high and his departure doesn't cripple the big league team for the best pitcher, regardless if its a Trevor Bauer (prospect) or James Shields (All-Star), period. Pitching at all levels is essential. Make a trade that involves Morneau and prospects for the best available middle infielder, either prospect or MLB-ready. Depth here is atrocious at all levels. The Twins need talent. If the Twins go the side of trading for prospects, then as fans we better be ready for some Jason Marquis/Sidney Ponson-type signings. BUT the as bad as the Twins have been, the team's luck has been pretty awful. Maybe the Twins catch some lightning in a bottle and sign the next RA Dickey (or at least at the right time) and the Twins get lucky and see WImmers, Salcedo and other pitching prospects start to get really healthy and dominate in the minors and advance to AA or higher by the end of the year.

AND maybe Anthony Slama gets a chance to prove he can get some outs in the Majors. Maybe, just maybe.

jorgenswest
11-23-2012, 12:17 PM
It dumbfounds me that people think it must be either one OR the other. That the Twins can't make moves for pitchers that will both improve the product on the field this year AND be around a couple of years from now when the next wave of top position players arrive. You're going to want some kind of veteran presence on the team when those young guys get to Target Field beyond just Joe Mauer.

---Yeah the win-now or build-for-tomorrow is a false dichotomy that's thrown out way too often. It doesn't have to be an either/or. The Twins should always be looking to improve themselves now and beyond.

IMO, when you start to concede seasons because you've got some grand plan to start winning 3 or 4 years down the road, you're sending the message that it doesn't matter whether you win now or not because you're not trying or expecting to win, and that breeds a culture of losing.

Look at the Royals and Pirates who have been trying to "rebuild" under these multi-year schemes for 2 decades now. I view "we're rebuilding" as nothing more than a euphemism for "we suck".

Looking at the Royals and Pirates is probably deserving of an article.

In short, the Royals spent most of the 2000s trying to do both. Look at the ages of their rosters over the last several years. It isn't until 2011 that you can look at their roster and the clear direction was their intention to rebuild. The 2011 roster was their youngest since the expansion season of 1969. They had two players over 30. The average batter age dropped three years from 2010. They stayed young in 2012. Now after two years they are trying to take their new rebuilt foundation and add pieces. Will they begin to see a payoff this year? Are they adding pieces a year too early?

How about the Pirates? They 2009 Pirates were relatively young... particularly the pitchers. No pitchers were over 30. They also didn't stick with the plan. They signed a bunch of over 30 pitchers for the bullpen entering 2010. Last year they had most of their innings come from the over 30 crowd. It is not a surprise that they have languished in mediocrity for two decades.

Rebuild or patch? It doesn't work to do both. The Pirates and Royals are an example.

Top Gun
11-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Rockies signed RHP Jeff Manship to a minor league contract.

Manship was limited to 12 games with the Twins last season, but posted a 2.91 ERA in 80-plus innings at the Triple-A level. The deal is expected to include an invite to spring training.

trader t
11-23-2012, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry Roger, but he is who he is. When he said that the twins would compete for the central division, I thought at the time that there was no possible way they could contend based on the results the previous year and the below average players they signed for 2011. Based on the facts, he is either a con man or an out n out liar. Either way he should be replaced!!! and by the way, I will agree that he is dedicated....... to losing

roger
11-23-2012, 03:28 PM
I'm sorry Roger, but he is who he is. When he said that the twins would compete for the central division, I thought at the time that there was no possible way they could contend based on the results the previous year and the below average players they signed for 2011. Based on the facts, he is either a con man or an out n out liar. Either way he should be replaced!!! and by the way, I will agree that he is dedicated....... to losing

With comments like this, calling Mr. Ryan a con man or liar, I respectfully request that Seth and the others here restrict you from access to their site.

And what is more telling about your comments above, Mr. Ryan wasn't the general manager before and during the 2011 season.

trader t
11-23-2012, 04:50 PM
I messed up .I meant 2012
. Either way you can't change what he has done or hasn't done. Do what you have to do

trader t
11-23-2012, 04:53 PM
loved it twinsnorth49, I don't have to take my blood pressure now

mike wants wins
11-23-2012, 05:20 PM
I think we actually agree, they should sign 2 pitchers this year, and deal for one. We agree Gibson is likely to be good. We agree Hendricks could he good, and should be given time. Diamond is a number 3. But Wimmers is at least 2 away. I do not think Hermsann is likely to be successful (more accurately, I think it highly unlikely both of the above are successful). I do jot think anyone else is less than 3 years away from being a starter, if they even work out. We likely agree more than disagree.

Kwak
11-23-2012, 05:33 PM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

Brock Beauchamp
11-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

kab21
11-23-2012, 07:12 PM
I cannot comprehend how the Royals signing guthrie means that the Twins should alter their plans at all. As a matter of fact the Twins current problem has nothing to do with who is in the AL Central. They can't beat anyone. The Twins don't need to do a complete slash and burn rebuild but they do need to avoid any ridiculous FA contracts that can cripple the team in the future. Anyone that thinks the Twins are going to magically turn this around by spending their way out of this mess is setting themselves up for a long run of ineptitude.

ScottyB
11-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

Separate devices, seperate networks and a new identity would allow dakota to bypass his banning. Seems strange that trader t starts up after dakota's 3rd banning. It must be tough for him to occasionally use the shift key.

diehardtwinsfan
11-23-2012, 10:15 PM
You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

nothing an IP anonymizer cannot solve...

old nurse
11-24-2012, 01:39 AM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

Separate devices, seperate networks and a new identity would allow dakota to bypass his banning. Seems strange that trader t starts up after dakota's 3rd banning. It must be tough for him to occasionally use the shift key.

I thought dakota was probably using a mobile device, thus easier not to use caps.

beckmt
11-24-2012, 06:40 AM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

Separate devices, seperate networks and a new identity would allow dakota to bypass his banning. Seems strange that trader t starts up after dakota's 3rd banning. It must be tough for him to occasionally use the shift key.

I thought dakota was probably using a mobile device, thus easier not to use caps.

Pairing writing style with techincal proficincy is a dangerous connection. I am probably an example of being reletivly bright and not being able to write well. Or having friends that could do this for you. Anyway this is probably a more offline discussion(if you wish).
Twins still need to identify and sign a couple of FA pitchers who will upgrade the talent level and give us a chance to compete. Trading Span for prospects is also likely to happen as the Twins have a glut of high level minor league talent in that area and it is not that far away from the major league level.
Trading a Joe Benson or a Chris Parmalee could also help bring talent back to the Twins when paired with a Span or a Morneau to a team that watches their payroll. Twins should treat themselves as a mid market team not a small market at this time.
Biggest issue is to evaluate the talent and make the correct decisions, not everything TR does is going to work. He just needs to be better than 50% on the bigger side.

Brock Beauchamp
11-24-2012, 08:19 AM
Fat Beer = johnny dakota = trader t. IP adressed moved to confuse Brock's monitoring

Just curious--how does one track that down to find out? Not a defense of any poster/opinion.

You need access to users' IP addresses.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same person, BTW. The person would have to operate on a technical proficiency level that is... Unexpected, given their writing style.

Separate devices, seperate networks and a new identity would allow dakota to bypass his banning. Seems strange that trader t starts up after dakota's 3rd banning. It must be tough for him to occasionally use the shift key.

There's more to it than that. You have to use the correct kind of proxy for me not to know that it's a proxy. Also, the locations are wildly different.

Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

ScottyB
11-24-2012, 08:35 AM
I'll take your word for it Pig