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Nick Nelson
11-14-2012, 11:53 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1177-Character-vs-Production

Top Gun
11-15-2012, 12:26 AM
Yunel is not that good that you have to put up with his crap.

Chris in Osaka
11-15-2012, 12:32 AM
Character and lockerroom issues are overrated. If he can hit, then he should be pursued.

h2oface
11-15-2012, 03:13 AM
yikes.

JB_Iowa
11-15-2012, 09:00 AM
I don't know if Escobar is the right fit but I do think that the Twins seem a bit too homogenized. It's nice to have people around you that you get along with (and with whom the manager gets along) but sometimes it is the people who rub you the wrong way who push you to be your best.

The whole approach of ditching (or avoiding) players with attitude seems lazy to me.

(Not to mention that most of the players on this team lull (or should I say, "dull") me into a bored stupor).

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-15-2012, 09:11 AM
Escobar likely can't provide either so I don't see why he'd be worth it.

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 09:30 AM
There are a lot of people on this site who like to build these fancy statistical models. There is nothing wrong with that... More Power to ya... I do the same things in my spare time for my own amusement but you gotta realize that once you get past Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Stanton, Pujols, Cabrera and the uber special ball players, you end up with slight degrees of seperation in talent with the rest of the bunch that over the course of 162 games is so tiny that it hardly matters. Any player can produce and have a week in the sun and any player can go cold for a stretch.

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

Yunel Escobar doesn't hit a large amount of home runs... He doesn't drive in gobs of runners and he doesn't steal a ton of bases... and he has worn out his welcome with two major league teams. Are you all trying to convince me or others that those extra 5 hits every 30 games is going to turn us into an offensive force... This guy with the bad attitude is going to solve our SS problem.

I have no problem with attitude... We could use some guys who get under the skin of his teammates because they stare them in the eye and say let's play some ball. Is that Escobar? or is he the attitude guy who goes through the motions and doesn't want to work on things if he doesn't feel like it. He's been run out of two clubhouses and I don't know why but I assume it's not because he's pushing his teammates to be the best that they can be.

gunnarthor
11-15-2012, 09:38 AM
Yunel had a pretty bad drop off last year so there is the danger that maybe he's declining or older than appears to be. But, depending on what we have to give up, I'd be ok with taking a flier on him. I'm not too concerned about his attitude. We won with Hudson and Rauch, both were bad club house guys and Cabrera came to us with a reputation for being a bit of a hothead and fit in perfectly.

Siehbiscuit
11-15-2012, 10:38 AM
There are a lot of people on this site who like to build these fancy statistical models. There is nothing wrong with that... More Power to ya... I do the same things in my spare time for my own amusement but you gotta realize that once you get past Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Stanton, Pujols, Cabrera and the uber special ball players, you end up with slight degrees of seperation in talent with the rest of the bunch that over the course of 162 games is so tiny that it hardly matters. Any player can produce and have a week in the sun and any player can go cold for a stretch.

The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

Yunel Escobar doesn't hit a large amount of home runs... He doesn't drive in gobs of runners and he doesn't steal a ton of bases... and he has worn out his welcome with two major league teams. Are you all trying to convince me or others that those extra 5 hits every 30 games is going to turn us into an offensive force... This guy with the bad attitude is going to solve our SS problem.

I have no problem with attitude... We could use some guys who get under the skin of his teammates because they stare them in the eye and say let's play some ball. Is that Escobar? or is he the attitude guy who goes through the motions and doesn't want to work on things if he doesn't feel like it. He's been run out of two clubhouses and I don't know why but I assume it's not because he's pushing his teammates to be the best that they can be.

You have gotta use better punctuation! It is very difficult to understand if you are making a statement(.) or asking a quesition(?).

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 10:47 AM
I think all my statements are questionable and I don't know if there is punctuation for that.

Also... What is this punctuation that you speak of?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-15-2012, 11:00 AM
And people were arguing with me about whether to go after Stephen Drew and his bad attitude.....I would way rather have Stephen Drew then this giant piece of crap named Escobar.

TK10
11-15-2012, 11:26 AM
These guys have to live together for 220 days a year. Attitude matters and someone who's a terrible human being will kill your team. Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.

USAFChief
11-15-2012, 11:31 AM
I think five hits every 30 games IS significant. That's 25 more hits at the end of the season. Add two more players with a BA .050 higher and it's 15 hits every 30 games.

Small differences add up over 162 games. That's the very nature of baseball.

jm3319
11-15-2012, 12:13 PM
I'd take a team of 25 A-holes that wins games over a team full of the 25 nicest guys on the planet that loses 90 games a season.

Nick Nelson
11-15-2012, 12:23 PM
Riverbrian: I think you're drastically understating the impact that Escobar (producing at career levels) can have compared to Pedro Florimon and Co. You need to look past batting average and understand that over the course of a full season he's going to get on base a lot more, provide more pop and generally just be more of an asset in the lineup. He's also an accomplished defender whereas it's difficult to trust the glovework of anyone the Twins currently have.
The notion that all non-star players are essentially interchangeable is strange to me. The way you beat other teams and win divisions is by having superior talent, even if only incrementally better. You can't overlook any opportunity to improve in any area.

As far as Escobar's homophobia thing goes, I'm as bothered by it as anyone, but it was - to my knowledge - an isolated incident and we can't dismiss the possibility that he learned a lesson from the whole ordeal. It's worth noting that Delmon Young was known as a major problem child when the Twins acquired him and he had very few off-the-field issues during his time here. His performance was a much bigger issue than his attitude.

Ultima Ratio
11-15-2012, 12:25 PM
Are there any additional "attitude" incidents beyond the one linked? I can't find any. If there aren't any other incidents, how does this one translate into being a bad clubhouse guy or demonstrate a pattern to be wary of? Sign him up.

Boom Boom
11-15-2012, 12:28 PM
The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

5 hits over 100 at bats is a pretty big difference. It sounds like less when you phrase it that way, but with an extra .050 of batting average Drew Butera would have hit .248 in 2012, making him a decent every day catcher.

TK10
11-15-2012, 12:29 PM
I, like most, have made "youthful" mistakes. But I guess I'm skeptical that something like homophobia or racism can ever be an accident or mistake, youthful or otherwise. Having too much to drink and yakking on your buddy's couch is a youthful mistake. Failing an 8 a.m. class because you're too lazy to get out of bed is a youthful mistake.

Ultima Ratio
11-15-2012, 12:38 PM
It's frightening that so many posters don't know what an actual phobia is anymore.

rico7961
11-15-2012, 12:39 PM
Why wouldn't you take a chance on Escobar. At 5M a year for 2013 with Club options for 2014 and 2015 its a chance to take. TR likes not being obligated more than 1 year and Escobar ia a major league ss (something we haven't had since Hardy). If you don't have to give up too much to get him it definitely improves our team for next year without breaking the bank. He can bat 2,6,7,8 in the lineup and has had some pretty good season's both offensively and defensively.

Willihammer
11-15-2012, 01:04 PM
The fact that he is coming off a down year and has a bad reputation would seem to make him a great buy low candidate. Its worth a phone call at least.

Nick Nelson
11-15-2012, 01:18 PM
Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.
He's not quite an "avowed homophone." Escobar claims that the message wasn't intended to be offensive and that he has no problem with gays. Whether you choose to believe him is up to you.

Regardless of his true feelings on the matter, he's entitled to his opinion and as long as he doesn't project it or turn it into an issue again I don't see why it should have any bearing on the Twins' desire to acquire him to play baseball.


Why wouldn't you take a chance on Escobar. At 5M a year for 2013 with Club options for 2014 and 2015 its a chance to take.
Escobar's contract, to me, is one of the most appealing things about him. If he turns things around and proves to be a good citizen, you've got the option to bring him back at the same very reasonable price. If not, you cut ties and move on.


Are there any additional "attitude" incidents beyond the one linked? I can't find any. If there aren't any other incidents, how does this one translate into being a bad clubhouse guy or demonstrate a pattern to be wary of? Sign him up.
I don't know if there have been any publicized incidents but my understanding is that attitude/clubhouse issues contributed to Atlanta getting rid of him.

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 01:31 PM
Hey... I'm no different than anybody else. If given the choice I'll take the 5 extra hits... Who wouldn't?

Where we differ is pretty simple. I'm pretty consistent in my belief that attitude question marks are a bad idea and 5 extra hits will not be enough if this guy truly has a bad attitude. No matter what TR does this off season... It's safe to assume that the Twins will not be confused with the Rangers on opening day. It doesn't mean that the Twins can't win. But the task gets harder if you bring in guys who get moody... Frustrated easy and don't battle thru things and I think the Twins will have to battle thru some things.

I love stats... I'm going over them all the time.... But baseball teams can't be built by stats alone. There is a human element and Escobar has been run off of two teams. I don't know why... But he has despite... providing that extra hit a week.

I don't believe that players are individuals who effect no one like they are some computer animated thing. I believe the team is a team and each individual effects the rest. That's why baseball is a team game despite having more individual match ups than any major team sport.

As for the value of those 5 hits. Lets use Escobar for an example... .290 in 2011 and .253 in 2012... Without getting into advanced metrics... What happened? BAPIP? Was it luck? Did he face tougher pitching... It's the same player and similiar amount of data. Was it a routine dip? Or the start of a downtrend. Was it the fact that the Blue Jays were playing .500 ball in 2011 and 8 games below .500 in 2012?

I don't have the answer but the fact that almost every individual player in baseball will swing those 5 hits from year to year tells me don't wring your hands over it.

One last thing. This is my opinion but I'm consistent... The Twins could bring in Tulo and you'd be pouring it straight down the toilet because the pitching is that bad. If you have 5 million to spend on a SS... You'd be better off applying that 5 million to a pitcher to address the main problem directly. Tulo isn't going to overcome an ERA in the 5's...

I realize that any new pitching acquisitions could go belly up and suck but at least you are trying to fix what is preventing the team from competing.

And to tie a nice bow on it... If the new pitching acquired does not get the job done and the pitching still sucks in 2013... You better have a SS and a team full of players that is still willing to fight and still believes it can win regardless. Escobar has been run off two teams... Drew off of one... Neither of them are Tulo and neither can overcome our current pitching.

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 01:32 PM
The Difference between the .280 hitter and the .230 hitter is 5 hits over 100 at bats. If you consider this fact... Ladies and Gentlemen... Character ends up being the true difference that matters.

5 hits over 100 at bats is a pretty big difference. It sounds like less when you phrase it that way, but with an extra .050 of batting average Drew Butera would have hit .248 in 2012, making him a decent every day catcher.

Or with 5 hits less... Drew would have hit .148... It goes both ways.

Ultima Ratio
11-15-2012, 01:45 PM
I did find reports of other eye black incidents, which show his immaturity -- not an irrational fear of homosexuals. Apparently he's written "WTF" and "No Penis" in his eye black in the past, which clearly shows an open bigotry toward women and the epicene (no penis) and quizzical happenings (WTF). I'm sure there's a phobia in there somewhere.


<<<Sarcasm>>>

http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2012/09/18/did-yunel-escobar-previously-write-no-penis-on-his-eye-black/

Spawn of Mientkiewicz
11-15-2012, 01:47 PM
Agree with Rico and hammer, if we could get him for one or two C or C+ prospects (guys likely not in the top 20 MN prospects), then taking a chance for the $5M he's owed in 2013 makes a lot of sense. If he turns out to disappoint on or off the field, it is a one year experiment. If he's better than expected, the club options give you multi year possibilities....makes too much sense.....

TK10
11-15-2012, 01:56 PM
He is an avowed homophobe. We have to own our actions. He claimed he doesn't have anything against gays because the Blue Jays and his agent put a metaphorical gun to his head. Additionally, if he actually, with a straight face, says his actions weren't intended to be offensive, than he's an idiot. Is he entitled to his opinion and free speech and all that good stuff? Yes, he is. But when you spew the kind of nonsense he did, then you deserve to driven out of town on a rail.

twinslover
11-15-2012, 02:04 PM
I personally don't care if he suffers from homophobia, hetero-phobia, agoraphobia, or arachnophobia. I think bringing him in has to be considered and if they can get him for a non-descript prospect there is very little risk.

TK10
11-15-2012, 02:12 PM
Hey yeah, if you can get a cross burner for the right price, might as well do it.

Road Grays
11-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Go ahead, sign him. Then I can have a proven idiot to direct all of my frustration at next summer. Kind of like when Luke Scott or Nyjer Morgan are in town, but Escobar will be there everyday! Whee!

OldManWinter
11-15-2012, 09:31 PM
Invest wisely. If a cancer is introduced to the team you may come to regret it big time.

Twins should be able to find good character guys who can play

Linus
11-15-2012, 09:42 PM
The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

USAFChief
11-15-2012, 10:02 PM
The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

"Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.

beckmt
11-15-2012, 11:37 PM
Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).

snepp
11-15-2012, 11:50 PM
The Twins already possess an abundance of chemistry, it would be swell to balance that out with a little more talent.

USAFChief
11-16-2012, 12:22 AM
Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).

I'd be fine with Drew.

That being said, I'm not sure how Escobar having been "in 2 or 3 major league organizations (it's 3)" is evidence that he's worn out his welcome or constitutes a "chemistry" problem, while Drew coming to the Twins (which would be his third major league organization since August) isn't evidence of same.

Linus
11-16-2012, 08:16 AM
The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

"Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.

Let me re-phrase my point: Escobar is clearly better than anything the Twins currently have. How much will depend on how much he returns to form and how much whoever the Twins throw out there improves. My point is that the extra $5 million is WAY more valuable being spend on more / better pitching than to bring in Escobar. Twins are far better off with better pitching and not having him. Now if money is no object, fine but that is clearly not the situation.

SockNet
11-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Character and lockerroom issues are overrated. If he can hit, then he should be pursued.
Agreed here. Just get something decent(regardless of issues) to stop the revolving door until you can get an equal to or better, younger, long term solution.

OldManWinter
11-16-2012, 10:36 AM
Some posters would advocate signing the devil himself if it meant a handfull of hits and a better arm. Character does matter.

snepp
11-16-2012, 11:34 AM
Some posters would advocate signing Mother Teresa herself, despite it guaranteeing 100-loss seasons. Talent does matter.

Brock Beauchamp
11-16-2012, 11:48 AM
Talent does matter.

More than anything else. Winning teams tend to form "chemistry" by, you know, winning.

Ultima Ratio
11-16-2012, 12:00 PM
The Twins already possess an abundance of chemistry, it would be swell to balance that out with a little more talent.

:) Post of the day! Good on you!

OldManWinter
11-16-2012, 12:50 PM
Snepp, you can have both!

ThePuck
11-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Talent does matter.

More than anything else. Winning teams tend to form "chemistry" by, you know, winning.

Exactly...the As in the early-mid 70s were a bunch of jerks...they were always at each other's throats...

snepp
11-16-2012, 02:06 PM
Snepp, you can have both!


In a perfect world, yes. But as Brock pointed out, talented teams have the tendency to build chemistry through winning. Talent isn't something that's going to grow on its own no matter how much chemistry you have.

mike wants wins
11-16-2012, 02:43 PM
I would think that if good guys lead to better teams, you would see that in their production...otherwise, how is the team better with them there?

twinsnorth49
11-16-2012, 03:22 PM
Snepp, you can have both!

But it starts with talent.

twinsnorth49
11-16-2012, 03:33 PM
These guys have to live together for 220 days a year. Attitude matters and someone who's a terrible human being will kill your team. Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.


I posted this during a different discussion on Yunel, it 's a worthwhile read on cultural differences and being a product of your environment.

It's also from a perspective entirely outside of baseball , which is why it's void of the usual rhetoric on such matters.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/yunel-escobars-slur-didnt-come-from-left-field/article4582951/

OldManWinter
11-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

Ultima Ratio
11-16-2012, 04:09 PM
Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

Ridiculous.

notoriousgod71
11-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Snepp, you can have both!


Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

Nick Punto > Ty Cobb

snepp
11-16-2012, 06:31 PM
Drew Butera > Barry Bonds

twinswon1991
11-16-2012, 08:18 PM
The Twins actually won something back when their leader was an absolute SCUM of a human being. We would all take 25 losers like Kirby Puckett with HOF talent over Gardy's collection of yes-men.

Bring in more Puckett's please!!!!!!!!!!!

twinsnorth49
11-16-2012, 09:12 PM
Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

Some have more talent than others, they're the ones at the top of the stat line. Where do you find the character stats? What are the metrics?

OldManWinter
11-16-2012, 10:04 PM
You want Bonds snepp? In the first place I never expected we load up with players who can't play. My opinion was and is that untrustworthy players will let you down when you need them. Sabremetrics for character :)??? Probably a good place to start is a police blotter

TheLeviathan
11-16-2012, 11:07 PM
You want Bonds snepp? In the first place I never expected we load up with players who can't play. My opinion was and is that untrustworthy players will let you down when you need them. Sabremetrics for character :)??? Probably a good place to start is a police blotter

Police blotters don't necessarily pick up on clubhouse cancers or bad attitudes. It's certainly fine to take character into consideration as a red flag, the problem is when you make pristine character a necessity that trumps talent as the Twins seem to do.

Riverbrian
11-16-2012, 11:46 PM
The discussion doesn't have to be about extreme examples... I'm not advocating a team full of choir boys who spend their days helping old ladies cross busy intersections nor am I dismissing a player who shoots meth into his eyeball and spits on girls scouts. Yunel Escobar could paint kill puppies under his eyes and I wouldn't care. He could paint riverbrian sucks in flashing neon and I wouldn't care.

I care about what kind of player he is... Does he compete? From what I understand... He doesn't!!!

Yunel Escobar has talent and he has been run off two teams and the SS position is a position of need for a bunch of MLB teams. He doesn't produce enough to be worth it. Here's a blog to check out.

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2010/07/14/addition-by-subtraction-the-braves-trade-yunel-escoba/

I don't know if this Mark Bradley is an idiot... He might be... I might be... But there are more articles like this from others... I watched Braves games and heard the announcers make comments about his lack of hustle.


You can't find as many on Drew but you had an owner calling him out this summer for not being a team player and that freaks me a little. Yes the owner could be an idiot.

In a nutshell... No more Delmon Young type players please... We all remember Delmon don't we? And spend the flipping money on pitching.

Riverbrian
11-16-2012, 11:58 PM
One more thing for full disclosure... I have no idea what kind of Twins we have on our current roster... The Beloved Joe Mauer could be the very player I'm describing... I don't know... I could eyeball it with Delmon and I could eyeball it with Valencia...

It is my belief that we won't know what kind of Twins team we truly have until the pitching gets closer to league average. When the pitching matches up with opposing pitchers and the games become battles... That when we will find out what we are made of,

Teams generally don't make public comments about the players because I assume it makes it hard to unload them and if they can't unload them it makes their attitudes worse.

So when you hear a team publicly slap a player... Like Drew and Escobar... It's pretty rare and speaks to a high frustration level. You can also be certain that it wasn't a first time offense.

Jim H
11-17-2012, 09:59 AM
One of the problems here is that the term "character issues" covers a wide variety of problems. It can be A J type problems where an abrasive personality is the underlining issue. Or the problems can center around achohol or drugs. Or it could be dedication issues such as being on time, doing the necessary work, etc. Or various combinations of other things. Unless the character issues appear on a police blotter, it is seldom in the club's best interests to make any of this too public.

That is the problem here, nobody here is likely to have a very good handle on exactly what the character issues surrounding Escobar or Drew, are. My guess is that the Twins, if they were interested in either one, would do their due diligence. I certainly would not like to make a guess on whether it would be a good move to try to acquire either one.

One other thought on this talent vs character debate. Some players perform much more consistently closer to their ultimate talent level than others. I don't know how much that has to do with character, but if you consistently perform at certain level, that can be much more useful than someone who sometimes produces at a very high level but at times doesn't accomplish much.

Tom Kelly uses to say that all players "gave away at bats" during the course of a season. I want to be careful in interpretting what he meant by that, but I assume it was important to him that his players did not give away at bats very often. Again, I don't know that character directly enters in here, but people who prepare well, do their work professionally, take their profession seriously, probably have a better chance of performing to their skill level on a regular basis.

OldManWinter
11-17-2012, 01:48 PM
JimH, yes character issues are indeed a slippery slope causing so much hair splitting.

Suffice to say I much prefer talented players with the grit needed to do well and become part of the team.

I do not prefer Twins load up on Mannys-being-Manny types who may not care to contribute that day.

Saying I do not like those players to build with I will grudgingly admit that ... with two out in the 9th, men on, win or go home that a team is a whole lot better off with Manny next up than Butera or Punto.

The right intangibles make a big difference.

Teddy
11-17-2012, 02:51 PM
Sal Butera > Drew Butera

h2oface
11-18-2012, 01:28 PM
I think all my statements are questionable and I don't know if there is punctuation for that.

Also... What is this punctuation that you speak of?

exactly......... i had no problem understanding your post at all!