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View Full Version : Blue Jays need a left handed hitting power bat at 1B. We have 2 of them.



robbie111
11-14-2012, 03:24 PM
What could we reasonably get back from them?

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 03:34 PM
What could we reasonably get back from them?

When I saw today's trade the first thing I though of is: Could the Blue Jays have done that trade thinking maybe it could trade Johnson to us for Morneau (as the main pieces, not one for one)

J-Dog Dungan
11-14-2012, 03:43 PM
I don't see much else for the Jays to give us outside of Johnson, although I haven't done much research in who they might send to us.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 03:49 PM
I don't see much else for the Jays to give us outside of Johnson, although I haven't done much research in who they might send to us.


yeah I dont see much else besides Johnson either. Its highly unlikely they would trade Johnson away now. Im pretty sure the Blue Jays are all in on this season.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 03:54 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

Do you think the Twins are really interested to get Buerhle and his big contract? I dont think they really are.

twinscowboysbulls
11-14-2012, 04:08 PM
Johnson > Buerhle

Craig in MN
11-14-2012, 04:14 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Terry Ryan was interested in Buerhle, for the right deal. Reports are that he had talked to the Marlins about multiple players. There are really only 4 likely players there....Reyes, Johnson, Nolasco, & Beurhle. I'd bet he asked about them all. I'd probably trade Morneau for Buerhle.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 04:16 PM
johnson > buerhle

no sh**

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 04:28 PM
Johnson > Buerhle

Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 04:31 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

Do you think the Twins are really interested to get Buerhle and his big contract? I dont think they really are.

They're going to have to spend money on somebody or they're going to end up with nobody. I don't like Buerhle's contract (hate it, actually) but if you can move Morneau's $14m in trade for it, that's a deal you need to consider.

70charger
11-14-2012, 04:39 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

Do you think the Twins are really interested to get Buerhle and his big contract? I dont think they really are.

They're going to have to spend money on somebody or they're going to end up with nobody. I don't like Buerhle's contract (hate it, actually) but if you can move Morneau's $14m in trade for it, that's a deal you need to consider.

I agree. And as much as I'd rather have Josh Johnson, I just don't think one year from him is going to make that big a difference.

And on top that, if anyone is going to age well, it's probably Buerhle. The guy shows no signs of slowing down.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 04:40 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

Do you think the Twins are really interested to get Buerhle and his big contract? I dont think they really are.

They're going to have to spend money on somebody or they're going to end up with nobody. I don't like Buerhle's contract (hate it, actually) but if you can move Morneau's $14m in trade for it, that's a deal you need to consider.

Exactly, its something they should consider...but right now they should be considering just about everything. I would hate to see Morneau go, hes been my favorite player since he was in the minor leagues, but anything to make this team better.

zchrz
11-14-2012, 04:51 PM
I wonder if they could work something out to send Morneau and get Hechevarria back since the Jays should be set in the middle infield with Lawrie/ Reyes and 3rd with EE.

Rosterman
11-14-2012, 04:52 PM
Either pitcher would be great. If it was Buehrle, the Jays immediately sign Johnson to an extension. If the Twins could trade for Johnson, then resign him for an extension. You immediately save money. I actually think Morneau would find a new great home in Toronto.

notoriousgod71
11-14-2012, 05:01 PM
Kelly Johnson is far more likely than Josh Johnson.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 05:03 PM
Either pitcher would be great. If it was Buehrle, the Jays immediately sign Johnson to an extension. If the Twins could trade for Johnson, then resign him for an extension. You immediately save money. I actually think Morneau would find a new great home in Toronto.

It sure as heck would be nice to get Johnson. Im sure the Blue Jays might be exploring a trade of Buerhle, which if they did youre right they would probably immediately sign Johnson to an extension. Seeing as Morneau is from Canada im sure he wouldnt be upset at all getting traded to the Blue Jays.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 05:05 PM
Kelly Johnson is far more likely than Josh Johnson.

Im not going to argue with you on that one. He has some decent pop although he is kind of a bad fielder but he is still better than anything we have right now.

Steve Penz
11-14-2012, 05:21 PM
I don't see how Toronto would trade Johnson for Morneau. It has been stated that Johnson, when healthy, is A list. A top level pitcher is worth more than what Morneau can bring. And, I see Morneau rebounding next year and putting up great numbers but that still does not equate to a true ace pitcher. I love Buerhle and even though his contract is heavy to have him would be great. Johnson will be very expensive after '13.

Kwak
11-14-2012, 05:24 PM
Why would they a LHB 1B when their RHs are hitting the cover off of the ball? Instead of adding Morneau (whose hittng statistics are overwhelmed by Encarnacion's) they could apply the same $14MM to pitching. To me this thread is a null set.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 05:31 PM
Johnson > Buerhle

Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.

You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

Weird.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 05:45 PM
Deck Mcquire... Chad Jenkins... Kyle Drabek... I have no idea if they are any good... But it looks like the Jays have some extra young arms for consideration... Give me a couple of those and I'll pray for their success.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 06:10 PM
Johnson > Buerhle

Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.

You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

Weird.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the contract is more palatable if the Twins can jettison Morneau's $14m contract for 2013.

And I've repeatedly mentioned how I don't like Buerhle's contract. You know, like in the post directly beneath the one you quoted. The Marlins' needs didn't line up with the assets the Twins were willing to part with to get Buerhle. Toronto has a very different set of needs, particularly because it appears that they're going all-in for 2013.

Willihammer
11-14-2012, 06:52 PM
I like that idea as well but I don't think the Jays would do it, their pitching situation is bad.

It would be much more the Jays style to wait until Buehrle exhausts all remaining value and then trade him to the Angels.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Johnson > Buerhle

Well, duh. But considering how Toronto only has Johnson for one season, I doubt they're willing to part with him for anything less than a king's ransom.

Buerhle and his considerable contract may be a different matter entirely.

You hated Buehrle's contract when the Jays acquired it, citing money owed in 2014 and 2015 as reasons the Twins shouldn't have made a similar deal with the Marlins.

Now you want to give up Morneau to acquire Buehrle.

Weird.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the contract is more palatable if the Twins can jettison Morneau's $14m contract for 2013.

And I've repeatedly mentioned how I don't like Buerhle's contract. You know, like in the post directly beneath the one you quoted. The Marlins' needs didn't line up with the assets the Twins were willing to part with to get Buerhle. Toronto has a very different set of needs, particularly because it appears that they're going all-in for 2013.

And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.

It's not that difficult. I am against the Twins giving up prospects at this point. It's that simple. The Marlins would have required prospects in return and it's unlikely the Pohlad's would have agreed to the kind of money required to keep Johnson, Buerhle, and Reyes. So, the deal was basically a no-go with the Marlins and the salary considerations for picking up both Reyes and Buerhle are ridiculous. They'd do serious long-term damage to this franchise.

But now we're talking about the Jays. A Jays team that *might not* want to keep all that salary around for 3+ years. Reyes is only slotted to make $10m in 2013 but that number jumps to $22m in the final year of Buerhle's contract and goes through 2018. The Jays also happen to need a first baseman. Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.

Does it hamstring the Twins a bit in 2014 and 2015? Sure, and that's a serious downside of acquiring Buerhle. On the other hand, it also gives the Twins the ability to dish Span off for a lower level prospect instead of worrying about the Major League franchise so much. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it should be on the table.

diehardtwinsfan
11-14-2012, 07:53 PM
please for the love of God stop suggesting we try to get Mark Burhle.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-14-2012, 08:13 PM
Absolutely not on Buerhle, if we are going to over pay for a pitcher I would rather go out and give Greinke 100 mil then that turd Buerhle, also Johnson is going no where.

mnfireman
11-14-2012, 08:17 PM
Kudos to the Jays for the Deal of the Decade, if not Century. That being said, I don't think they are done. There are several free agents out there yet plus, it seems, they are very creative on the trade front. While Morneau would be a great publicity move, I don't think they look at him before next years trade deadline.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 08:22 PM
And Morneau's $14M contract for 2013 has what to do with 2014 and 2015?

You'll also have a hard time convincing me the Twins couldn't have matched, or beat, what the Jays gave the Marlins, so I'm no buying the "need's didn't line up" rationale.

I would have loved for the Twins to end up with Reyes, Buehrle and Josh Johnson, basically for little besides money. But that's because it included Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. Seems kind of...hypocritical to say you didn't like the Jays end of the Marlins deal because of Buehrle, then turn around and love the idea of giving up your first baseman, just to get Buehrle.

It's not that difficult. I am against the Twins giving up prospects at this point. It's that simple. The Marlins would have required prospects in return and it's unlikely the Pohlad's would have agreed to the kind of money required to keep Johnson, Buerhle, and Reyes. So, the deal was basically a no-go with the Marlins and the salary considerations for picking up both Reyes and Buerhle are ridiculous. They'd do serious long-term damage to this franchise.

But now we're talking about the Jays. A Jays team that *might not* want to keep all that salary around for 3+ years. Reyes is only slotted to make $10m in 2013 but that number jumps to $22m in the final year of Buerhle's contract and goes through 2018. The Jays also happen to need a first baseman. Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.

Does it hamstring the Twins a bit in 2014 and 2015? Sure, and that's a serious downside of acquiring Buerhle. On the other hand, it also gives the Twins the ability to dish Span off for a lower level prospect instead of worrying about the Major League franchise so much. Is this likely to happen? Probably not, but it should be on the table.

Am I reading this correctly? You want to send Morneau AND Revere to Toronto for Buehrle?

Good lord.

Toronto is able to get Johnson and Reyes for basically nothing but money, but have to take Buehrle's contract off the Marlins hands to get the deal done. And you want to bail Toronto out by taking Buehrle off thier hands? Why in heaven's name wouldn't the Twins have simply given a few decent, not great, prospects (and that's all Miami got) and gotten all three players then? You could still deal Morneau (and Revere) at that point, and you'd have Josh Johnson and Buehrle in the rotation and Reyes at short.

Buehrle was the yucky medicine you had to swallow in order to get the sugar (Johnson and Reyes). He's not someone you go out and acquire now, all by his lonesome.

Willihammer
11-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.
Revere has barely two years cracked into the arb clock and won't be a FA till 2018. He's a pretty good bet (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-value-of-elite-speed-measured-in-wins/) to put up 2 wins+ for bottom dollar over the next 4 seasons. That is a little more than a toss in, esp. when you're weighing him against a guy with 50 million of guaranteed money coming his way. The Jays would snap that up in a heartbeat.

mnfireman
11-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Maybe toss in Revere and you're starting to put together a package that isn't so bad and it's a package that doesn't cost the Twins a prospect.
Revere has barely two years cracked into the arb clock and won't be a FA till 2018. He's a pretty good bet (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-value-of-elite-speed-measured-in-wins/) to put up 2 wins+ for bottom dollar over the next 4 seasons. That is a little more than a toss in, esp. when you're weighing him against a guy with 50 million of guaranteed money coming his way. The Jays would snap that up in a heartbeat.
Not a huge fan of Revere's skill set (he seems like a good kid), but NO to using him get Buehrle unless the Jays throw in a pile of $$$ also.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 09:08 PM
Can we just stop talking about getting Buerhle? It wouldnt be a good trade whether it be for Revere or Morneau.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 09:46 PM
Am I reading this correctly? You want to send Morneau AND Revere to Toronto for Buehrle?

Good lord.

Toronto is able to get Johnson and Reyes for basically nothing but money, but have to take Buehrle's contract off the Marlins hands to get the deal done. And you want to bail Toronto out by taking Buehrle off thier hands? Why in heaven's name wouldn't the Twins have simply given a few decent, not great, prospects (and that's all Miami got) and gotten all three players then? You could still deal Morneau (and Revere) at that point, and you'd have Josh Johnson and Buehrle in the rotation and Reyes at short.

Buehrle was the yucky medicine you had to swallow in order to get the sugar (Johnson and Reyes). He's not someone you go out and acquire now, all by his lonesome.

Stop pretending that Reyes' contract is some kind of steal for the Jays. The dude is owed between $88m and $106m over the next 5-6 years. Here is his WAR for the past four seasons: 0.8, 2.2, 4.7, 2.8... all for the low, low price of ~$17m a season. Whooo, sign me up twice. The Marlins were idiots for handing out that contract in the first place (as they were with the Buerhle contract). He's never going to play up to anything close to the kind of money he's due.

The Buerhle contract is far from perfect but if you sweeten the deal a little and give up someone and get the Jays to pay some of the balance in 2014/2015, it might be a viable deal. Perfect? No, but when you need at least three starting pitchers for the upcoming season, it's not a bad place to start because dealing Morneau keeps you payroll-neutral in the short-term, allowing you to go get more arms via free agency.

And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Can we just stop talking about getting Buerhle? It wouldnt be a good trade whether it be for Revere or Morneau.

God forbid that we lose Morneau's 0.8 WAR and replace it with Buerhle's 3.2 WAR. That'd really be devastating.

Any pitcher the Twins acquire this offseason is going to have flaws. That's just how this works. If you're looking for the perfect pitcher to slot into the rotation and hold out waiting for that Prince Charming to materialize, you're going to end up watching a full season of Samuel Deduno throwing balls over Joe Mauer's head. Is Mark Buerhle the best option out there? Possibly, possibly not. But for the love of Christ, he should be the subject of at least one phone call this offseason.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 09:52 PM
And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.

Oh snap! Now ya done it! The Possible Police are going to raid this thread and scold you for pointing out that it could happen and it isn't unrealistic!

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 10:16 PM
And stop acting as if the Twins taking on $50m in salary this season was ever on the table. There's no way they would have acquired those three guys from the Marlins. It simply wasn't going to happen.

Buehrle, JJ, Reyes and Buck will combine to earn $40.75M in 2013, not $50M. And the Marlins sent $4M in cash, so the cost in 2013 is $37.75M.

The Twins, as they stand right now, have something on the order of $70M on the books for 2013. Adding $38M to that gets us to around $108M, and doesn't factor in any salary the Twins might have sent the Marlins way (Escobar, for example, will be paid by the Marlins in 2013.)

I don't think it's at all accurate to say there's no way the Twins could have put together something similar. In fact, just the opposite. If Toronto could do it, so could the Twins.

The Twins, if ownership wanted, could afford another $20M on top of that, and likely not lose money.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 10:22 PM
Ownership has shown on multiple occasions that they would never consider such a move. That's all there is to it. You can disagree with them all you want but they hold the purse strings.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 10:32 PM
I mentioned this in another thread. I don't think money is the issue at all here. Chief is right. The Twins could have taken on these salaries and salary dumped Morneau to the Jays or Mariners for a low level prospect and the salary range would be very reasonable.

The point I want to make is.... How does anyone know that the Twins were not on the phone trying to swing the deal and simply didn't have the players that interested the Marlins. Maybe the Marlins liked the Jays offer better... How does anyone know.

My god... We have people attacking our front office because two other teams made a trade. If you sit and think about that... You can see the craziness. Can't we. Everyone realizes that 29 other teams exist and are working as well. Talk about some sort of Twinscentric Bubble.

The Twins have no pitching to offer back. Maybe the Marlins said... Terry... That's a nice package but we simply don't want 8 outfielders... We are going to do this deal with the Jays instead.

With That said.. What a perfect package of players for the Twins... Reyes and Bonofocio could have stabilized MI and put our speed level to Top of the league by miles. Johnson and Buerhle would have provided much needed pitching. Not to mention the big jolt of energy for the franchise.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 10:33 PM
Ownership has shown on multiple occasions that they would never consider such a move. That's all there is to it. You can disagree with them all you want but they hold the purse strings.

Yes they do. Tightly.

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 10:55 PM
The trade is over, we lost out on that one, so forget about it.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-14-2012, 11:09 PM
I looked at the title and thought..."Hhmmm. What are you getting at...?"

Twins Twerp
11-14-2012, 11:28 PM
Wait to trade mornie untilnhis value is up...after allstar break. Trade of'ers for pitching now

robbie111
11-14-2012, 11:28 PM
Morneau will put LOTS of fans in the seats in Toronto and Rogers who owns the Bluejays have several Sports Networks in Canada where Morneau is very well known. It makes sense for them to have him at 1B or DH. It addresses a left handed power bat that the Blue Jays need. Don't forget they were interested in him this year at the trade deadline. Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised to see him dealt to the Jays.

robbie111
11-14-2012, 11:31 PM
Wait to trade mornie untilnhis value is up...after allstar break. Trade of'ers for pitching now

Would you trade Willingham and Span for Lincecum?

70charger
11-14-2012, 11:39 PM
Okay, legit question here. Just because Morneau is Canadian doesn't necessarily mean that he's some sort of national hero, does it? I mean he's from British Columbia, and here we are suggesting Toronto as if it's the same thing. They're about as far apart as Seattle and New York. Is the "Canadian thing" really that important?

robbie111
11-15-2012, 12:02 AM
Okay, legit question here. Just because Morneau is Canadian doesn't necessarily mean that he's some sort of national hero, does it? I mean he's from British Columbia, and here we are suggesting Toronto as if it's the same thing. They're about as far apart as Seattle and New York. Is the "Canadian thing" really that important?

He's probably the best known Canadian Baseball player in the game right now, even more so than Brett Lawrie who plays for the Jays, or Joey Votto for the Reds. Morneau won Canadian Athlete of the year in 2008 (Over all hockey players) which has only happened twice before. Ferguson Jenkins and Larry Walker were the other two baseball players. He also narrowly missed out in 2006 his MVP year to Steve Nash who had just won his second MVP in a row in basketball. So to answer the question yeah he is a national hero in Canada and if the Twins were smart they could probably get a stronger deal from Toronto than from any other team because of that fact.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-15-2012, 12:44 AM
This whole thing is confusing as **** to me, everybody said the Buerhle deal last year was terrible, and its not like he came out and had a career year this year or anything. He had a 3.74 ERA in the NL while pitching in an extreme pitchers park. He is owed basically 15 mil a year from here on out! (Baseball reference actually shows he is owed 18 mil in 2014 and 19 mil in 2015) not sure how accurate that is, but if that is the case....wow even worse. On what planet does anyone think either way that this is a contract we would want to bring on? Literally for a couple mil more a year we could go out and get an ace like Greinke (though I don't think that is prudent either)

I guarantee the Marlins would have given him away for nothing but salary relief this year, but nobody would bite. You bring WAR into the conversation incorrectly seeing how there is a very good chance that Morneau produces much higher then last year (since he was coming back from an injury and had a slow start) also Reyes, though pricey is still a damn solid player which WAR doesn't show his true value IMO. Also they got a guy in Josh Johnson who could ultimately be the best FA pitcher on the market come next year, he isn't exactly owed Peanuts, but there is no such thing really as a "bad" one year deal.

So at the end of the day: No, I wouldn't take Buerhle for even a straight salary dump, much much much less trading a guy like Morneau (who has plenty of value on his own) and Revere (Value both in a trade and in the organization for him) now if Toronto magically wants to pick up 18 of the 45 still owed to Buerhle in the deal then perhaps it would be worth discussing, but as it sits now? No way!!

robbie111
11-15-2012, 12:57 AM
There's no way I'd want Buerhle for Morneau, I'd look towards Romero who had a horrible year and has had surgery to clean out his elbow but was Toronto's Ace in 2011 and maybe one or both of Taylor Cole or Roberto Osuna. You could probably do even better than this as Morneau has way more value to Toronto than most people here realize.

The Jays owners are Rogers Communications. They are a huge cable company and own several national sports television stations and a large number of sports radio stations. Morneau is to baseball what Steve Nash is to basketball. He brings in large numbers of Canadians to watch him play his sport. Rogers makes money not only from what the Jays sell for merchandise or ticket sales but mainly from advertising revenue on its sports stations. Having a centerpiece like Morneau (Captain Canada of baseball) would bring in a large number of new sponsors and companies and raise television ratings during Jays games which helps Rogers Sports increase rates for advertising time.

By the way Rogers made $14 billion from its advertising revenue according to Forbes magazine, which is why they can afford to absorb salary. Rogers also is an owner of the NBA Toronto Raptors and tried this already by offering a huge contract to Steve Nash (Captain Canada of basketball) not because they thought he'd bring them a championship, but because of the money they would make selling advertising to television sponsors during Raptors games (Nash refused it and took much less to be with the Lakers). This is the same reason the Twins should hold out for more from the Jays if they were to trade Morneau as it's not about his value on the field per se, it's about his value to bring in advertising money.

Anyone who thinks Toronto would have trouble absorbing Morneau's contract isn't looking at the big picture.

Dilligaf69
11-15-2012, 04:40 PM
Ryan should be on the phone with the Jays to see if they're willing to work a deal that sends Morneau to Toronto for Mark Buerhle. Buerhle's contract is more palatable if it includes removing the $14m Morneau is owed in 2013. The Twins would have to send over more than Justin to make it happen but I think it's an idea worth pursuing. The Jays can't be all that excited about the $50m+ Buerhle is owed over the next three years.

Do you think the Twins are really interested to get Buerhle and his big contract? I dont think they really are.


Twins will not touch that contract....MB's best days are behind him...no thanks!

Dilligaf69
11-15-2012, 04:43 PM
Wait to trade mornie untilnhis value is up...after allstar break. Trade of'ers for pitching now

Would you trade Willingham and Span for Lincecum?



NO and NO!!! Timmy is not a top starter anymore, he may not be a 3-4 anymore. He thrived in the pen this postseason and more then likely will finish out his career there plus isn't he owed a boatload of cash still??

kab21
11-17-2012, 04:47 AM
First off Kelly Johnson is a FA and Josh Johnson was the entire reason that the Jays did the deal.

The Buehrle talk is interesting. It is definitely an ugly contract and it's backloaded so it really doesn't work well for what I want the Twins to do. i.e. spend but maintain future payroll flexibility. It's actually not that bad when you look at total dollars spent factoring in Morneau's subtraction. People need to stop acting like he has any trade value. He could be a solid hitter next season but it's a position the Twins can fill between Doumit, Mauer and Parmelee with Arcia and Hicks getting more PT at RF/DH.

2013 - 12M - 14M = 2M savings
2014 - 19M
2015 - 20M

Overall it would be a 3 yr 37M contract (minus Morneau) which is exactly what I'm looking at spending on a FA pitcher this year. If you don't like this trade then how confident are you that the Twins can sign a pitcher as good as Buehrle for a similar amount?

notoriousgod71
11-17-2012, 07:22 AM
Okay, legit question here. Just because Morneau is Canadian doesn't necessarily mean that he's some sort of national hero, does it? I mean he's from British Columbia, and here we are suggesting Toronto as if it's the same thing. They're about as far apart as Seattle and New York. Is the "Canadian thing" really that important?

God dammit, I was just about to post the same thing.

diehardtwinsfan
11-17-2012, 09:23 AM
If the Twins wanted Buerhle, the time to get him was last season. I woudln't trade jack squat for that albatross of a contract, and to add to it, Mr. Buerhle is one of those low K pitch to contact guys that we have far too much of... Yes, he's walked that line better than any of our guys ever have, but he's still a risk of suddenly falling off the face of the earth. At his price and age, trading anything for him would be down right foolish, as would taking him on if Toronto put him on irrevocable waivers.

If the Twins want a big name pitching and have the kind of cash needed to pay Buhrle, start thinking Annibel Sanchez or another big name free agent. This Buerhle talk is down right foolish.

jianfu
11-17-2012, 10:14 AM
The Jays's Top 15 Prospects for 2013, according to Fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/toronto-blue-jays-top-15-prospects-updated/

Most of the pitching is a ways away...not that that's terrible, but I suspect the Twins are itching for ML-ready guys if they're going to trade.

Still not sure what Morneau's value might be. I was skeptical, but Adam Laroche apparently is getting a lot ot suitors. Morneau's a bit younger, is AL-tested, and for all his struggles and inconsistencies lately, particularly in 2011, Laroche's 2011 was even more crappy.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larocad01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/morneju01.shtml

Twins Twerp
11-17-2012, 11:12 AM
If u have two left hwnded power first baseman u have none... or is that qbs...i can never remember

Top Gun
11-17-2012, 11:29 AM
Why Jays already have Lind & Cooper, far better than what the Twins got!