PDA

View Full Version : Article: Do the Tigers really have that much more money than the Twins?



Parker Hageman
11-14-2012, 12:47 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1174-Do-the-Tigers-really-have-that-much-more-money-than-the-Twins

rico7961
11-14-2012, 01:13 PM
The Pohlad's have been laughing all the way to the bank since the day the tax-payers of Hennepin county decided to fund a stadium for them. Rich mans welfare. I hope they choke on their money, because they aren't going to spend it on their baseball team.

Seth Stohs
11-14-2012, 01:20 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

Mr. Ed
11-14-2012, 01:40 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

Then do something about it, Twins.

Bin-diving and settling for the middle road will only keep them in the middle of the pack.

Commit to winning. OR make it a youth movement.

It's resulted in wasting the last couple years of some key players' careers. And it doesn't look like it's getting any better.

All talk from this org the past couple of years. Want to win, embarrassed by losing, blah,blah,blah.

jm3319
11-14-2012, 01:47 PM
The Tiger's owner spends some of his own money out of pocket to improve the team and doesn't care about making money with the Tigers. The Twins owners base payroll off of revenue only. There's your difference in payroll and attitude toward winning.

chagen
11-14-2012, 01:49 PM
Mr. Ed

Your right on either spend some money and get some pitching or commit to a youth movement your wasting time just having a few good players that are in there prime Willingham, Morneau etc.

nick5253
11-14-2012, 01:56 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

Then do something about it, Twins.

Bin-diving and settling for the middle road will only keep them in the middle of the pack.

Commit to winning. OR make it a youth movement.

It's resulted in wasting the last couple years of some key players' careers. And it doesn't look like it's getting any better.

All talk from this org the past couple of years. Want to win, embarrassed by losing, blah,blah,blah.

You are absolutely right. I tend to agree with the Twins FO theory that they can't just buy a contender and that spending big on FA signings that handcuff you for 6 years is not a good way to build a consistent contender. But, given that strategy, they should have blown up this team in 2011. It was clear to anyone that this organization did not have anything close to impact talent in the upper minors, so it was going to take free agents filling those holes to be competitive. And if you're not spending to bring in big free agents, you're left with a crappy team. Given their recent track record in the draft (terrible), they should have been relying on veteran sell-off trades to stock the upper minors with talent. They have had valuable pieces the last couple of years but have let them leave for nothing. Now they're in a position where they need 4! starting pitchers to field a decent team and there is next to nothing still in the system.

Winston Smith
11-14-2012, 02:04 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

Pohlads seem content to make more money so they can move up the Forbes list while winning is secondary. It's always been this way so no need to think it will change. If you are waiting for Jim Pohlad to tell Ryan spend what ever you need to make a team that can win a world series I think we'll wait a long time or maybe when he's in his 80's?

We have to remember that the Pohlads were going along with contraction. NO MORE TWINS. They have a lot less attachment to baseball and sports than Ilitch does.

nicksaviking
11-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Have none of you been to Detroit? It's a thriving economic Eden of oppulance and home to the most affluent and spend-happy people in the midwest. Obviously there is more money to go around.

CDog
11-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

Pohlads seem content to make more money so they can move up the Forbes list while winning is secondary. It's always been this way so no need to think it will change. If you are waiting for Jim Pohlad to tell Ryan spend what ever you need to make a team that can win a world series I think we'll wait a long time or maybe when he's in his 80's?

We have to remember that the Pohlads were going along with contraction. NO MORE TWINS. They have a lot less attachment to baseball and sports than Ilitch does.

Carl Pohlad owned the Twins when there was talk of contraction, and I'm fairly confident he has very little input on decisions anymore.

Also, if we're going to get all drooly over Ilitch, it should probably be pointed out that the Twins have finished ahead of the Tigers in 14 of the 21 seasons they've shared a division (all under Ilitch's ownership). The Twins have also won their shared division 6 times compared to 2 for the Tigers.

There's also that the Tigers didn't contend a single time for the first 14 years of Ilitch's ownership, and only got over 0.500 once in that span (his second season).

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 02:26 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

But they didn't go for it...they gutted their middle IF and bullpen and signed Nishi. They actively downgraded their team. Normal raises, along with Mauer's contract kicking in is what happened...but they didn't go for it. What 'final pieces' did they bring in?

John Bonnes
11-14-2012, 02:29 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

There is no evidence that the Twins went $20M over budget for payroll. At most, they went $8M (the cost of Pavano), and based on their own statements, it was probably closer to $4M. I don't personally have any problem with the Twins running their business like a business while Ilitch treats his like a fancy toy with super neat-o expensive options. But let's not pretend that the Twins ever did anything close to what Ilitch is doing now.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

There is no evidence that the Twins went $20M over budget for payroll. At most, they went $8M (the cost of Pavano), and based on their own statements, it was probably closer to $4M. I don't personally have any problem with the Twins running their business like a business while Ilitch treats his like a fancy toy with super neat-o expensive options. But let's not pretend that the Twins ever did anything close to what Ilitch is doing now.

There's also no evidence to suggest the raise in payroll happened to bring in final pieces missing from the 2010 team for a run...

rickyriolo
11-14-2012, 02:32 PM
Just think Detroit is not even close to being done yet. The Tigers will make some more moves, they need a closer and more. Unfortunately , the Twins will sit on their hands while Detroit is going for the whole shebang

Brandon
11-14-2012, 02:34 PM
The blow it up talk is total crap. we are what 3 starting pitchers and a few bench/ bullpen arm away. not an impossible task to overcome. We do need to be smart how we deploy resources. We can sign a mid rotation pitcher and trade for another then we are just 1 arm away.....bench. there are several low cost options available and same with bullpen. Get the starting pitching and everything will come into place. The biggest offensive question has already been resolved with Parmalee going to right field that increases the power output in our lineup. Bench could be strengthened with several players, Gomez, Andrew Jones, Inge, and others. bullpen.... we should have plenty of options there too.

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 02:36 PM
The Pohlad's have been laughing all the way to the bank since the day the tax-payers of Hennepin county decided to fund a stadium for them. Rich mans welfare. I hope they choke on their money, because they aren't going to spend it on their baseball team.

So do you think the Pohlad's should simply write out a check from their personal (not Twins) bank account and pick up Zack Greinke and Josh Hamilton?

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 02:36 PM
The Tiger's owner spends some of his own money out of pocket to improve the team and doesn't care about making money with the Tigers.

Gotta link? I'd like to look this up.

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 02:38 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

So do you think Illitch simply wrote out a check from his personal (not Tigers) bank account and picked up Prince Fielder and Torii Hunter?

Kwak
11-14-2012, 02:39 PM
It seems the Twins have three problems to fix: a) disparity of local broadcast TV revenues, b) PR problem of perceived commitment to winning, and c) ability to turn amateur players into top professional players. So far, a) has not been discussed at all, b) only so far as adding some "value" players (which might be considered as only a "left-handed" attempt)--and those guys have yet to be signed yet, and c) an admission of "Patience, Folks, but we did draft a lot of pitchers".

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 02:40 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

So do you think Illitch simply wrote out a check from his personal (not Tigers) bank account and picked up Prince Fielder and Torii Hunter?

Actually, if I remember correctly, that's exactly what he did for Fielder...He definitely told his GM to go get him, period.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 02:57 PM
Tigers just signed 37 year old Tori Hunter to a twilight of his career contract that is worth more than the Twins "largest free agent contract in team history."

chagen
11-14-2012, 02:59 PM
The blow it up talk is total crap. we are what 3 starting pitchers and a few bench/ bullpen arm away. not an impossible task to overcome. We do need to be smart how we deploy resources. We can sign a mid rotation pitcher and trade for another then we are just 1 arm away.....bench. there are several low cost options available and same with bullpen. Get the starting pitching and everything will come into place. The biggest offensive question has already been resolved with Parmalee going to right field that increases the power output in our lineup. Bench could be strengthened with several players, Gomez, Andrew Jones, Inge, and others. bullpen.... we should have plenty of options there too.


The blow it up talk isn't total crap if the twins aren't willing to go out and get 3 quality starting pitchers which i will be shocked if they do. I'm not talking Joe Blanton i'm talking quality pitchers

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 03:04 PM
'The blow it up talk is total crap. we are what 3 starting pitchers and a few bench/ bullpen arm away. not an impossible task to overcome.'

is that all? JUST three starting pitchers and a few bullpen arms away? Not like that isn't needing a BUNCH in reality, but also how about a 2B, a shortstop, a 4th starting pitcher (since w only have 1 good one) and maybe even a 3B...

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 03:04 PM
I would say that when the Twins felt they had a team that could compete, two years ago, they went about $20 million over budget to bring in some final pieces. It makes no sense to spend that much to finish 3rd or 4th.

Complete horsepoop. May I remind folks this is the same poster who told us when the new national TV contract kicks in, and Twins revenues go up by $25m, with zero new costs, we should only expect the Twins to spend half of that on payroll.

Kwak
11-14-2012, 03:06 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

So do you think Illitch simply wrote out a check from his personal (not Tigers) bank account and picked up Prince Fielder and Torii Hunter?

Actually, if I remember correctly, that's exactly what he did for Fielder...He definitely told his GM to go get him, period.

I think that there is a difference in business philosophies between the Pohlads and Illitch. Illitch (it appears) uses the free cash flow from his food empire to fund his sports empire. Remember that Illitch also owns/funds the Detroit Red Wings which consistently ran a well above average payroll in the NHL to support a highly successful franchise. It appears that Illitch is doing the same for the Detroit Tigers. The Pohlads may (it looks that way to me) be using the the free cash flow from their sports empire to fund their other businesses--especially real estate. Perhaps the Pohlads see greater potential outside of sports than Illitch sees (in Detroit) so they spend differently. It's really nice for Detroit sports fans, and stinks for Minnesota Twins fans. Miami (again) blew-up their team, Oakland did so at the end of 2011, but was able to rebuild stronger than ever. I contend that that is the real problem with the Twins--the ability to rebuild, not the ability to spend.

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
I think that there is a difference in business philosophies between the Pohlads and Illitch. Illitch (it appears) uses the free cash flow from his food empire to fund his sports empire. It appears that Illitch is doing the same for the Detroit Tigers.

You're speculating. Unless the Tigers and the Red Wings are legally under the same business entity there is a separation, "a corporate wall" between the two. Of course the Red Wings could loan money to the Tigers, but there would be an accounting and reporting of such on their tax returns.


The Pohlads may (it looks that way to me) be using the the free cash flow from their sports empire to fund their other businesses--especially real estate.

Same idea here. The Twins are a limited liability corporation and probably have no legal connection between the Pohlad's real estate businesses. If the Pohlad's want to loan the Twins money they could do so. Or if the Minnesota Twins LLC want to loan the real estate business money they could. You don't really think the Pohlad's take their profits from the Twins and deposit it into the real estate business bank account as if it were a gift, do you?

nicksaviking
11-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Ilitch and the Pohlads are both worth over 2.5 billion. Ilitch is 83 certainly can never spend all that money and wants to win while still alive.

So do you think Illitch simply wrote out a check from his personal (not Tigers) bank account and picked up Prince Fielder and Torii Hunter?

Actually, if I remember correctly, that's exactly what he did for Fielder...He definitely told his GM to go get him, period.

Not to mention that Illitch got Comerica built with only 40% of the burden on the tax payers as opposed to 66% tax payer burden for Target Field. Illitch paid $180 million for his stadium while 10 years later the Pohlad's only chipped in $172 million despite the enormous amount of additional revenue the MLB label was producting.

Winston Smith
11-14-2012, 03:38 PM
A business owner taking money out of his pocket to fund some business venture happens all the time. If it is a publically traded corp that won't happen (they could issue more stock for cash) but any private business can do it whenever they want. This summer when the Wild made the big free agent signings they asked all the owners to chip in some cash to cover the cost. The Timerwolves have lost money many times over the years and Taylor just writes out a check to cover the loss. Some owners are willing to do that and some aren't.

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 03:58 PM
A business owner taking money out of his pocket to fund some business venture happens all the time. If it is a publically traded corp that won't happen (they could issue more stock for cash) but any private business can do it whenever they want. This summer when the Wild made the big free agent signings they asked all the owners to chip in some cash to cover the cost. The Timerwolves have lost money many times over the years and Taylor just writes out a check to cover the loss. Some owners are willing to do that and some aren't.

My point is that they are not gifting the money. They are making a loan with the expectation of getting paid back. Or they are getting shares of stock.

SweetOne69
11-14-2012, 03:58 PM
Illitch owns both the Red Wings and Tigers. He is desperate to win WS title before he dies.

mike wants wins
11-14-2012, 04:04 PM
The Tigers have more will to win. Whether that translates to wins is a different story. I would prefer the twins had more will, frankly. They get zero more of my money until I see evidence of that.

JB_Iowa
11-14-2012, 04:37 PM
My point is that they are not gifting the money. They are making a loan with the expectation of getting paid back. Or they are getting shares of stock.


I don't know that anybody is loaning or gifting money in the case of the Tigers. It may simply be a willingness to forego a certain amount of profit. I haven't seen any figures that would indicate that the Tigers are running a deficit.

I do think that Ilitch wants to leave a legacy of a WS championship to Detroit -- and from his appearance this post-season, the window of opportunity to do so may not be that long. (He looks a lot more frail than some 83-year-olds that I know.)

powrwrap
11-14-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't know that anybody is loaning or gifting money in the case of the Tigers. It may simply be a willingness to forego a certain amount of profit. I haven't seen any figures that would indicate that the Tigers are running a deficit.


That's a good point.

However, there are plenty of posts that say things like, "a business owner [should] take money out of his pocket" or "Pohlad's aren't going to spend money on their baseball team", or "Illitch can spend all the money he wants", or "The Tigers owner spends some of his own money out of pocket to improve the team" or "Illitch uses cash flow from his food empire to fund his baseball team". All of these statements presume that pro sports owners find funding outside of their team's profits. They presume that owners are 'cheap' if they don't want to make personal loans to the team so the team can buy free agents.

Would I like it if the Pohlad's loaned the Twins $200M with no expectation of getting paid back with the purpose being the acquisition of free agents with which to win a World Series? Yes, I'd love it. But I don't expect them to, nor do I expect any reasonable owner to do so.

Jim H
11-14-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't really care how much money the Tigers choose to spend. It is a fact that some franchises can/choose to spend more than others. In this case the Tigers just replaced Delmon Young with Torii Hunter spending a lot more money on Hunter than they did on Young. Now, at 37 Hunter is still likely a better all around player than Young. But his offensive numbers aren't likely to be a lot better if he can stay healthy, which isn't a given.

I don't think anyone here really wanted Hunter for the Twins at this point of his career for $13 million a year. That Detroit decided to do that, may limit other fixes that they can do this offseason. Even if it does not, their overspending for an aging player will have little effect on whether the Twins make themselves competitive in the Central Division in 2013.

OldManWinter
11-14-2012, 06:21 PM
CDog earlier posted Twins vs Tigers records which I assume is correct and reflects a long-term commitment to the Twins so I don't agree with the "lack of wanting to win theorists".

It is sort of a standoff if the team ties payroll to revenues and fans won't buy tickets if team does not spend. If you enjoy the game buy a ticket, if not try fishing

Team needs to figure a way out of morass, they need to be smart about players they sign. It is not about spending, it is about spending wisely in a highly competitive market when your competition needs something more than you are willing to spend or has some unique reason to outbid you.

My perception is that the Pohlad family has money invested funding many projects and businesses.

Lets say that maybe they are actually being asked to not fund a new entrepreneur and instead resign Hunter for $26 mil or Baker who has not proven himself for $7.5 mil?

Which do any of you think is a better investment for Minnesotans as a whole?

It is not as if the Pohlad family has a room full of money like King Midas.

Jack Torse
11-14-2012, 06:46 PM
This was my comment in a Nick Nelson post, a month ago, about almost the same topic.

Jim Pohlad said last off season that he had a difficult time investing more money into a 99 loss team. I doubt 96 losses changes his thinking much. I think we know where next season's payroll is headed. Looks like two nights of golf league next summer

It's not even Thanksgiving yet so lets cut the Pohlads some slack with next years payroll already. That being said, I doubt they do much and with Scott Diamond as the only pitcher on the books, not much will matter for next season. What they really need to do is blow it up sort of like Florida did. The interesting aspect is how and when they are going to throw Gardy under the bus. If it wasn't a guy's career it would be comical but it's going to be baseball's version of Pickets charge.

clutterheart
11-14-2012, 08:19 PM
Twins and Marlins might officially ruin any argument for a Public Funded Stadium.

Time for the voters of Hen, county to demand a refund - I would LOVE to see that on the ballot.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 09:30 PM
I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.

Kwak
11-14-2012, 11:18 PM
I think that there is a difference in business philosophies between the Pohlads and Illitch. Illitch (it appears) uses the free cash flow from his food empire to fund his sports empire. It appears that Illitch is doing the same for the Detroit Tigers.

You're speculating. Unless the Tigers and the Red Wings are legally under the same business entity there is a separation, "a corporate wall" between the two. Of course the Red Wings could loan money to the Tigers, but there would be an accounting and reporting of such on their tax returns.


The Pohlads may (it looks that way to me) be using the the free cash flow from their sports empire to fund their other businesses--especially real estate.

Same idea here. The Twins are a limited liability corporation and probably have no legal connection between the Pohlad's real estate businesses. If the Pohlad's want to loan the Twins money they could do so. Or if the Minnesota Twins LLC want to loan the real estate business money they could. You don't really think the Pohlad's take their profits from the Twins and deposit it into the real estate business bank account as if it were a gift, do you?
That's not what I said. I said FCF from food empire--pizzas etc. Used to invest in sports--the Red Wings and the Tigers. There is nothing about corporate entities. Illitch's money (after it leaves the corporation--though it may be in a trust) is simply invested elsewhere (sports) there is no violation of law involved.

70charger
11-14-2012, 11:27 PM
I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.


Oh come on. Now you're just being ridiculous. Posting logical arguments on a message board. What's wrong with you!?

glunn
11-15-2012, 12:14 AM
Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

Road Grays
11-15-2012, 03:43 AM
The only thing Twins fans have right now is a shiny new ballpark and the pleasure of watching Joe Mauer compete for batting titles. Both of those things are awesome. But unless that is all we need to be satisfied as supporters of this club, then this organization needs to take drastic action. We are in a terrible division and we haven't even been close to competitive for two years. We have no choice but to blow it up and attempt to restock. Pathetic attempts at remaining competitive, while we are in fact circling the drain, wreck my head. I will take very little pleasure in watching the remaining years of Joe Mauer's prime if it is wasted by a team that thinks Jason Marquis and Joel Zumaya are the way forward.

BUT, I have very little faith in ownership taking any kind of bold action to move the franchise in a different direction or in their general willingness to win. The ballpark will continue printing large piles of money for the Pohlads, and it will be business as usual for them despite how much the team's core fans may want to watch compelling baseball played there.

Which sucks, because idiot that I am, I really like this ****ing team.

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 06:26 AM
I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.


Oh come on. Now you're just being ridiculous. Posting logical arguments on a message board. What's wrong with you!?

This is his wife, he handed the iPad to me and asked me to answer the question what's wrong with him. He spends too much time on this website. He doesn't eat any vegetables unless I personally put it on a plate next to some meat. He doesn't drink enough water. He watches television and listens to music too loud. He likes Led Zeppelin, Tragically Hip and Neil Young and he makes me try to feel it. He snores and he only covers his mouth when he sneezes occasionally. He doesn't know how to fix his car or mine, He puts off little projects like replacing a door handle for 6 months. He mows the lawn in a square instead of lines and he waits until the grass is tall enough to hide the cat. He doesn't hang up the towel after he showers and he doesn't care if he uses my towel or our sons. He leaves the refrigerator open while he takes a swig of orange juice straight out of the bottle. He forgets to say thank you and forgets major dates like Birthdays, our Anniversary and Christmas. When he does shop for gifts he gets weird things like globes and welcome mats that say strange things. I got to get going because I actually have things to do in the morning. Hope everyone has a great day.

powrwrap
11-15-2012, 10:05 AM
Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

Detroit is a bigger media market with 1.3 million more potential viewers. Therefore they are able to get more money for their TV contract.

JB_Iowa
11-15-2012, 11:37 AM
LOL, thank you Mrs. Riverbrian for the insight!

StormJH1
11-15-2012, 11:58 AM
Mrs. Riverbrian's post was EPIC, except if I let my wife answer like that for me, she'd either go on WAY too long with super embarrassing stuff, or just say something like "you spend too much time on dumb internet forums".

As for the original question, I have some perspective on this as a native Detroiter (22 years) who is now a proud Minnesota resident and Twins fan (last 10 years). While it's natural to become frustrated by the Detroit Tigers and their spending at times, you need to keep in mind that few teams are like the Tigers, and few owners (maybe none are like Mike Illitch). As any Detroit Red Wings fan will tell you, Illitch is the definition of a "fan owner". While he has other successful businesses (Little Caesar's Pizza, etc.), he doesn't own sports teams as "investments", he owns them because he loves sports and understands how a good sports team can become a part of an identity (especially a troubled identity like that of "Detroit").

While it would nice if the Pohlads and other owners were like Illitch, expecting them to be like that is extremely unfair, since few owners are. Illitch is also in mid-80's and a lot of people have noticed he appears to be in declining health. He's made the Red Wings Stanley Cup champions 4 times and appeared in 6 Finals. There's a sense that he knows the end might be near and he wants to see the Tigers to succeed in the same way before that time comes. If there's even a kernel of truth to that, it could help to explain signings like Fielder and Hunter that are great in the short-term, but don't make much long-term baseball sense.

Also, Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski was the Marlins GM during their first buying spree and subsequent sell-off in '97. It's pretty evident he has a special relationship with the Marlins that gave him in a "in" on deals for Miguel Cabrera and Anibal Sanchez, who obviously made a huge impact on that team.

The fact is that the Twins have "enough" payroll to succeed, whether you like it or not. Teams like the Giants and Cardinals won World Series with payrolls comparable to what we trotted out in 2010 and 2011. They were not "one free agent away" from winning they AL this season - they were fundamentally flawed as a roster, and that's on Bill Smith and Terry Ryan.

savvyspy
11-15-2012, 01:08 PM
Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

All you need to know about this is Miguel Cabrera made $2 million LESS than Joe Mauer. Cabrera only hit 13 points higher, hit 34 more HRs, and knocked in over 50 more runs. Prince Fielder makes the same as Mauer hits about the same for average and pitches in 20 more HRs and about 25 more RBIs.

Until the Twins stop having $37 million tied up in Mauer and Morneau, who combined to only hit 29 HR (less than either Fielder or Cabrera) and knock in 162 runs it doesn't matter what the budget is. Neither Mauer or Morneau make this team better whether they play or don't yet 40% of the payroll is tied to these guys. That makes no sense.

I mean this front office gave Nick Blackburn $5 million and he's the worst starting picher in 25 years.

The Tigers win because their front office knows what it takes to win. You need an ace at the top of the order and 2 big bats in the middle of the lineup and you build around that foundation. The Twins have made decades of excuses why they won't trade or sign for an ace or why they always draft starters that scouts say have #4 starter ceilings. The Tigers draft well and they spend on things that win you games, dominate pitching and big bats. The Twins spend money on a decent defensive catcher who hits a ton of singles and 40% of the rotation demands a "personal catcher" that's not him and $6 million set up guys that the manager likes not because he pitches well but will "take the ball" when he asks.

Riverbrian
11-15-2012, 01:55 PM
LOL, thank you Mrs. Riverbrian for the insight!

Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

LastOnePicked
11-15-2012, 02:50 PM
Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

Yes. We have enough evidence of this already: Gardy's Spring Training 2011 assertion that Nishioka would be a Gold Glove contender, TR's claim that Jason Marquis was a strike-throwing innings eater and on and on. We're not just a few pitchers away from contention folks; we're an entire organizational culture away from contention. It no longer matters what will happen in a future season on the field -- it matters what will happen with ownership and management.

Kwak
11-15-2012, 03:51 PM
Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

Yes. We have enough evidence of this already: Gardy's Spring Training 2011 assertion that Nishioka would be a Gold Glove contender, TR's claim that Jason Marquis was a strike-throwing innings eater and on and on. We're not just a few pitchers away from contention folks; we're an entire organizational culture away from contention. It no longer matters what will happen in a future season on the field -- it matters what will happen with ownership and management.

+1
Ryan was fine as a GM for a bad team, with low payroll, that considered contraction a superior option to reinvestment. He trolls the garage sales, donation centers and the dumpsters in hopes to plug a hole or two--and justify his employment. The Twins are no longer viewing contraction, but clearly there have been some poor contracts and those must be "worked-out". I imagine all other GM candidates start with "I need complete control of all staff and a much larger operating budget..." and then he is "politely" told to leave--so the same management team simply changes chairs. Soon, the "bad" contracts will have been removed (except Mauer's--but he is a special case). When will ownership change philosophy?--IDK. But probably after attendence drops to ~1MM paid attendance per season.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-15-2012, 04:31 PM
Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.
Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

Kwak
11-15-2012, 04:58 PM
Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.
Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

A few years ago the Twins did attempt to establish their own TV station to broadcast the games from, but were blocked from obtaining a channel.

JB_Iowa
11-15-2012, 05:44 PM
Phil Mackey had a pretty good column on local TV revenues: http://m.1500espn.com/pages/sportswire.php?sID=3956

Its not just market size but also number of households with cable/satellite, etc.

I've yet to see an article about how the market area outside the TC metro plays into the whole equation. I would guess satellite/cable subscriptions are higher in outlying areas (I know they are where I live) but the number of households is much sparser. And then you have the whole question of the state of Iowa being included in the TV "market" of 6 different teams -- seems to me that Iowa probably doesn't add to any teams market base.

glunn
11-15-2012, 07:01 PM
Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.
Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

Teddy
11-17-2012, 02:56 PM
I guess the banking industry doesn't pay as well as the crappy pizza industry.

kab21
11-18-2012, 06:57 AM
Teams run in cycles. It's pretty simple - The Twins got old and they had terrible injury luck the last two seasons. I know that everyone is frustrated by the losing but 120+M teams filled with 30+ yr old players isn't how you rebuild a team. If the Twins hadn't lost pretty much their entire starting rotation to injuries/ineffectiveness they would be winning and the payroll would be in the 110-120M range.

StormJH1
11-19-2012, 01:36 PM
Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

All you need to know about this is Miguel Cabrera made $2 million LESS than Joe Mauer. Cabrera only hit 13 points higher, hit 34 more HRs, and knocked in over 50 more runs. Prince Fielder makes the same as Mauer hits about the same for average and pitches in 20 more HRs and about 25 more RBIs.

Until the Twins stop having $37 million tied up in Mauer and Morneau, who combined to only hit 29 HR (less than either Fielder or Cabrera) and knock in 162 runs it doesn't matter what the budget is. Neither Mauer or Morneau make this team better whether they play or don't yet 40% of the payroll is tied to these guys. That makes no sense.

I mean this front office gave Nick Blackburn $5 million and he's the worst starting picher in 25 years.

The Tigers win because their front office knows what it takes to win. You need an ace at the top of the order and 2 big bats in the middle of the lineup and you build around that foundation. The Twins have made decades of excuses why they won't trade or sign for an ace or why they always draft starters that scouts say have #4 starter ceilings. The Tigers draft well and they spend on things that win you games, dominate pitching and big bats. The Twins spend money on a decent defensive catcher who hits a ton of singles and 40% of the rotation demands a "personal catcher" that's not him and $6 million set up guys that the manager likes not because he pitches well but will "take the ball" when he asks.
Partially true. People also forget that the Tigers do things like sign Dontrelle Willis to 3 years, $29 million, then watched it blow up on a Hideki Irabu-like level of disaster. Of course, the Mauer vs. Cabrera portion of your rant is absolutely true - Mauer was essentially paid for having a single "Cabrera lite" season under the expectation he could continue doing that for 10 more years AND keep playing catcher. Still, it's not like can really blame Mauer for not being Miguel Cabrera, because nobody else is either, not even some other guys making $20 million. Also, the Tigers have spent a lot of money (on FA's or option years to retain players) for guys that end up losing playing time to more defensively-oriented rookies. Guys like Magglio Ordonez or Johnny Damon. But they usually do so with short-term deals, so it's tough to really find too much fault with it.

Willihammer
11-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

Try stupid girl, or, a man needs a maid.

twinsnorth49
11-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

Try stupid girl, or, a man needs a maid.

I'd try "Locked in the Trunk of a Car" or " She Didn't Know" by the Hip, solid.

Riverbrian
11-19-2012, 09:34 PM
I'd tried them all. She just isn't going to put down the Adele.

Persoanlly... Man needs a Maid off Harvest... Absolutely... Stupid Girl? If I have Zuma... I gotta do Cortez.

Locked in the Trunk of a Car is my favorite Hip Tune... Absolutely... However She didnt know doesnt dp it for me...if I have Up to Here in my hand. Trickle Down is so Rolling Stonesy... That would be my track.

Actually I'd want Inevitability of Death off Day for Night or I'd want "up to here" to turn into Road Apples which is a batter album and I'd break out the three Pistols or Little Bones.

Zeppelin... You can't top Since I've been loving you.

For everyone else On Twins Daily... Jump in or Just talk about baseball around us... lol...

twinsnorth49
11-19-2012, 11:25 PM
I'd tried them all. She just isn't going to put down the Adele.

Persoanlly... Man needs a Maid off Harvest... Absolutely... Stupid Girl? If I have Zuma... I gotta do Cortez.

Locked in the Trunk of a Car is my favorite Hip Tune... Absolutely... However She didnt know doesnt dp it for me...if I have Up to Here in my hand. Trickle Down is so Rolling Stonesy... That would be my track.

Actually I'd want Inevitability of Death off Day for Night or I'd want "up to here" to turn into Road Apples which is a batter album and I'd break out the three Pistols or Little Bones.

Zeppelin... You can't top Since I've been loving you.

For everyone else On Twins Daily... Jump in or Just talk about baseball around us... lol...

Cowgirl In The Sand (10 minute guitar intro, just to mess with you)
Tell Me Why
Cortez The Killer
Helpless
Walk On
Comes a Time

Actually just get Decade, that'll get you through the mid-seventies at least.

Three Pistols
Little Bones
New Orleans is Sinking
On The Verge
50 Mission Cap (songs about Bill Barilko, genius)
Nautical Disaster

This could go on for days.

Adele? Dude, you're killing me

Riverbrian
11-20-2012, 07:50 AM
It's a little slow on the Twins front so...
My Rankings

Neil Young

6. Cortez the Killer
5. Old Man
4. Mr. Soul
3. Comes a Time
2. Unknown Legend
1. Down by the River

Tragically Hip

6. Little Bones
5. At the 100th Meridian
4. Three Pistols
3. Courage
2. Inevitability of Death
1. Locked in the Trunk of a car(where the copters won't spot it...brilliant... I still don't understand the conquistador beginning bit. )

Zeppelin

6. Ten Years Gone
5. Bring it on Home
4. When the Levee Breaks
3. The Rain Song
2. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
1. Since I've Been Loving You

twinsnorth49
11-20-2012, 09:32 AM
It's a little slow on the Twins front so...
My Rankings

Neil Young

6. Cortez the Killer
5. Old Man
4. Mr. Soul
3. Comes a Time
2. Unknown Legend
1. Down by the River

Tragically Hip

6. Little Bones
5. At the 100th Meridian
4. Three Pistols
3. Courage
2. Inevitability of Death
1. Locked in the Trunk of a car(where the copters won't spot it...brilliant... I still don't understand the conquistador beginning bit. )

Zeppelin

6. Ten Years Gone
5. Bring it on Home
4. When the Levee Breaks
3. The Rain Song
2. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
1. Since I've Been Loving You

Shark metaphor where the shark is the trunk and the conquistador is the killer or the Shark is the killer and the conquistador is Laporte......or it means absolutely nothing, except that sharks eat a lot of junk and because they go through a tonne of teeth, it's very hard to tell how old they are. Not sure what that has to do with the FLQ.

When the hell are those Winter meetings again?

Riverbrian
11-20-2012, 12:54 PM
It's a little slow on the Twins front so...
My Rankings

Neil Young

6. Cortez the Killer
5. Old Man
4. Mr. Soul
3. Comes a Time
2. Unknown Legend
1. Down by the River

Tragically Hip

6. Little Bones
5. At the 100th Meridian
4. Three Pistols
3. Courage
2. Inevitability of Death
1. Locked in the Trunk of a car(where the copters won't spot it...brilliant... I still don't understand the conquistador beginning bit. )

Zeppelin

6. Ten Years Gone
5. Bring it on Home
4. When the Levee Breaks
3. The Rain Song
2. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
1. Since I've Been Loving You

Shark metaphor where the shark is the trunk and the conquistador is the killer or the Shark is the killer and the conquistador is Laporte......or it means absolutely nothing, except that sharks eat a lot of junk and because they go through a tonne of teeth, it's very hard to tell how old they are. Not sure what that has to do with the FLQ.

When the hell are those Winter meetings again?

I read that... And I also read that Gordie was quoted as saying the song is a metaphor for a smothering relationship. However... It's Gord... He would certainly be a strong possibility for throwing out a red herring or two. So I go back to... I'm not sure... The thing about hip songs is that you can certainly pull your own interpretations from them and make it work. Brilliant Band!!!

I got to hang around with them backstage during the Day for Night tour. Dan Aykroyd was back stage just hanging around as well. The band was very nice and personable. Gord was very dark on the other hand. He really didn't want to be there working the room. I just said Hi and told him that this backstage political stuff must be a pain. He nodded and said yes it is. I then left him alone.

Back to Baseball... Hey North your South... I think the Twins should try and sign more Canadien players... What'd think about that?

twinsnorth49
11-20-2012, 05:10 PM
It's a little slow on the Twins front so...
My Rankings

Neil Young

6. Cortez the Killer
5. Old Man
4. Mr. Soul
3. Comes a Time
2. Unknown Legend
1. Down by the River

Tragically Hip

6. Little Bones
5. At the 100th Meridian
4. Three Pistols
3. Courage
2. Inevitability of Death
1. Locked in the Trunk of a car(where the copters won't spot it...brilliant... I still don't understand the conquistador beginning bit. )

Zeppelin

6. Ten Years Gone
5. Bring it on Home
4. When the Levee Breaks
3. The Rain Song
2. Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
1. Since I've Been Loving You

Shark metaphor where the shark is the trunk and the conquistador is the killer or the Shark is the killer and the conquistador is Laporte......or it means absolutely nothing, except that sharks eat a lot of junk and because they go through a tonne of teeth, it's very hard to tell how old they are. Not sure what that has to do with the FLQ.

When the hell are those Winter meetings again?

I read that... And I also read that Gordie was quoted as saying the song is a metaphor for a smothering relationship. However... It's Gord... He would certainly be a strong possibility for throwing out a red herring or two. So I go back to... I'm not sure... The thing about hip songs is that you can certainly pull your own interpretations from them and make it work. Brilliant Band!!!

I got to hang around with them backstage during the Day for Night tour. Dan Aykroyd was back stage just hanging around as well. The band was very nice and personable. Gord was very dark on the other hand. He really didn't want to be there working the room. I just said Hi and told him that this backstage political stuff must be a pain. He nodded and said yes it is. I then left him alone.

Back to Baseball... Hey North your South... I think the Twins should try and sign more Canadien players... What'd think about that?

It would be great if more Canadians played for the Twins, I'm a huge homer, but they gotta be able to play. It's hard on the psyche though, in true Canadian fashion I tend to view it as a personal failure every time Diamond or Morneau put up a stinker, I'm not sure I could take anymore. I love it when they're playing well though, it's an added pleasure as a Twins fan, my personal highlight from last season was being right behind home plate when Morneau jacked two, including the walk off against the Tribe in September. Going to be sad to see him go soon.