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View Full Version : Marlins are Ridiculous (Johnson, Buehrle, Reyes and more)



Seth Stohs
11-13-2012, 05:39 PM
It appears that the Miami Marlins will do their best to make life difficult in the NL East for Mike Redmond.

Sources are indicating that the Marlins have traded RHP Josh Johnson, LHP Mark Buehrle, SS Jose Reyes, C John Buck and IF/OF Emilio Bonafacio to the Blue Jays for Yunel Escobar and several prospects.

Holy ridiculousness!!! Embarrassing for baseball are the Marlins!

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 05:47 PM
SAYYYYYY WHAAAATTTT???????

In all seriousness I hope this is a joke....If this is true it is a straight salary dump and the marlins will end up just like or even worse than the ASTROS

Tuba
11-13-2012, 05:49 PM
So much for courting Latino's... or, you know, anyone

Rick Blaine
11-13-2012, 05:54 PM
did the Twins get Johnson and Buerhle?

Rick Blaine
11-13-2012, 05:56 PM
did the Twins get Johnson and Buerhle?

I suppose I should have read the second line!1 My bad.

The Marlins tend to clean house every three or four years-- and then rebuild.

Westgaard66
11-13-2012, 06:02 PM
Wow, don't Reyes and Buerle have No trade clauses?

Giant salary dump, if I were a marlins fan I'd be revolting.

that ugly ass stadium is gonna be empty.

Top Gun
11-13-2012, 06:10 PM
Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the Blue Jays have acquired Jose Reyes, Josh Johnson, Mark Buerhle, Emilio Bonifacio and John Buck from the Marlins in exchange for Yunel Escobar, Adeiny Hechavarria, Henderson Alvarez, Jake Marisnick and Justin Nicolino.

Wow. Rosenthal says that there could be even more players involved in the deal, as well. It's obviously a massive deal for a variety of reasons. The Blue Jays are adding a ton of talent and also a ton of payroll, though it's not clear how much, if any, money is changing hands. Meanwhile, the Marlins are having yet another firesale, this time just a year after finally getting their new stadium.
Related: Blue Jays (http://twinsdaily.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/tor/blue-jays)

Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/268496374004330497)

mnfireman
11-13-2012, 06:17 PM
Here is the news on MLB Trade Rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/blue-jays-close-to-acquiring-josh-johnson.html)

JohnChoiniere
11-13-2012, 06:17 PM
1) I've read (admittedly on twitter) that the Marlins don't issue *any* no-trade clauses.

2) According to Morosi, this would dump EIGHTY FOUR percent of their 2012 opening day salary.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#7CCXrmMgfIgB1v0I.99




thank you for all your work put into this post!

Top Gun
11-13-2012, 06:25 PM
Twins want to know where was T. Ryan on this deal?

Brock Beauchamp
11-13-2012, 06:26 PM
I hope the fine people of Miami are organizing a public tar and feathering of Loria before they tie him on a boat pointed toward Cuba.

Just deplorable. Worst owner in sports.

Brock Beauchamp
11-13-2012, 06:26 PM
Twins want to know where was T. Ryan on this deal?

Hopefully far, far away. Buerhle is owed a combined $39m in his age 35 and 36 seasons.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 06:47 PM
Twins want to know where was T. Ryan on this deal?

Hopefully far, far away. Buerhle is owed a combined $39m in his age 35 and 36 seasons.

Yeah he has a total of 48 million owed to him over the next 3 years.....no thanks

Top Gun
11-13-2012, 06:52 PM
Johnson will make $13.75 million in 2013 before hitting free agency, while Buehrle is set to earn $48 million over the next three seasons. Related: Blue Jays (http://twinsdaily.com/teams/clubhouse/mlb/tor/blue-jays), Mark Buehrle (http://twinsdaily.com/player/mlb/3074/mark-buehrle)

Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/268493473236258817)

John Bonnes
11-13-2012, 07:00 PM
So the Blue Jays, who were at $75M on Opening Day last year, just added.... $50M in salaries for next year? That doesn't make sense. Either they are flipping some of these guys or there are some 3rd teams involved, right?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 07:03 PM
So the Blue Jays, who were at $75M on Opening Day last year, just added.... $50M in salaries for next year? That doesn't make sense. Either they are flipping some of these guys or there are some 3rd teams involved, right?

John according to Tim Kurkjian from ESPN, the Toronto Blue Jays owner is one of the richest and has been saying for sometime that he has been waiting to make a splash like this when the time was right. I guess the time was right lol.

raindog
11-13-2012, 07:08 PM
This is what the Marlins do. And they always come back as contenders. Not a shock, and not a terrible thing to do. They weren't going anywhere with those guys. They went all in last year, and failed miserably. Now they get to start over, instead of treading water (like another certain team).

beckmt
11-13-2012, 07:20 PM
It appears the Blue Jays have upped the stakes in the east. This will make life difficult for all the other teams in the division. They may not be the favorite in the east, but they certainly made themselves the equal of the Yankess and the Rays. Should make an interesting couple of weeks. This may help the Twins as Shawn Marcum was rumored to be going to the Jays and this looks like it will not happen now.

SpantheMan
11-13-2012, 07:30 PM
This is just pathetic. Shame on you, Marlins.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 07:30 PM
It appears the Blue Jays have upped the stakes in the east. This will make life difficult for all the other teams in the division. They may not be the favorite in the east, but they certainly made themselves the equal of the Yankess and the Rays. Should make an interesting couple of weeks. This may help the Twins as Shawn Marcum was rumored to be going to the Jays and this looks like it will not happen now.

Yes, exactly right. This just adds more to the competitive balance out in the east. I hated always seeing ONLY the Yanks and the Sox at the top of that division, and now the whole division looks like any one of those teams has a good shot at the playoffs. Should make next September interesting that is for sure

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 07:32 PM
Twins want to know where was T. Ryan on this deal?

amen , he was busy trying to lowball scott baker ,this just shows another reason for curly lyan to be fired , total failure to fix anything except lining the owners pockets

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Marlins have done this before. If it is so bad for the Marlins, why is it bad for the jays?

So, one of the richest people on the planet is spending his money to win. Good for him. If you are going to ask fans to pay a lot of money, and ask tax payers to subsidize your business, you should spend some of your own money too.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 07:51 PM
Btw, this is what bad teams should do, deal their overpriced veterans for prospects. It's how bad teams eventually get better, not by trying to be "not bad" by signing and keeping mediocre or bad players around, but by dealing them.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 07:51 PM
Marlins have done this before. If it is so bad for the Marlins, why is it bad for the jays?

So, one of the richest people on the planet is spending his money to win. Good for him. If you are going to ask fans to pay a lot of money, and ask tax payers to subsidize your business, you should spend some of your own money too.

Exactly right. Wish Pohlad would do this. Just for not as much money as the Blue Jays just spent.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 07:52 PM
Twins want to know where was T. Ryan on this deal?

amen , he was busy trying to lowball scott baker ,this just shows another reason for curly lyan to be fired , total failure to fix anything except lining the owners pockets

This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:10 PM
What if they Marlins had dealt Buerhle for a good minor leaguer or two? What if they then dealt Johnson for a MLB player or two? What if they then made a third trade, and dealt Reyes for 1-2 MLB players and a prospect? People would be saying they had made three good deals, gotten younger and maybe better, and freed up money to re-sign Stanton and maybe add a FA or two.....but because it is one trade, it somehow bad?

People on this board were debating if either pitcher was worth a legit prospect or not, given their salaries....now they get real value in return, and it is a bad idea? From a baseball perspective, putting aside the stadium just being put in (you really should not cut salary in the first few years of a new stadium, it should go up a lot, otherwise why get one?), isn't it a good baseball trade?

That said, I'd 100% rather have an owner like the Jays have....one that wants to pay the price to win.

Willihammer
11-13-2012, 08:11 PM
Its more like $35m in added payroll for 2013, by my count. A deal like this does make you wonder, at least, how did it go down? I would love to know.

Seth Stohs
11-13-2012, 08:19 PM
What if they Marlins had dealt Buerhle for a good minor leaguer or two? What if they then dealt Johnson for a MLB player or two? What if they then made a third trade, and dealt Reyes for 1-2 MLB players and a prospect? People would be saying they had made three good deals, gotten younger and maybe better, and freed up money to re-sign Stanton and maybe add a FA or two.....but because it is one trade, it somehow bad?

Yeah, that is exactly right. Based on what we know, they added a headache, a utility infielder, one OK prospect and one prospect who wasn't a top 30. That's very different than the scenario that you laid out above.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 08:27 PM
What if they Marlins had dealt Buerhle for a good minor leaguer or two? What if they then dealt Johnson for a MLB player or two? What if they then made a third trade, and dealt Reyes for 1-2 MLB players and a prospect? People would be saying they had made three good deals, gotten younger and maybe better, and freed up money to re-sign Stanton and maybe add a FA or two.....but because it is one trade, it somehow bad?

Yeah, that is exactly right. Based on what we know, they added a headache, a utility infielder, one OK prospect and one prospect who wasn't a top 30. That's very different than the scenario that you laid out above.

Exactly a very different scenario. You hit this one right on the head Seth. Redmond deserves better than this. I wonder if he knew this might happen when he became their manager? Either way it seems like the Marlins did not want to go through all the headache of multiple trades, and just do a straight salary dump, or else like mike wants wins said they would have done multiple trades.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:27 PM
That's not what Hardballtalk said. They said that if you take out the stadium and impact on other free agents, that it was probably a good trade for Miami. I don't know anything about what they got, frankly. I am going by that one article. And wouldn't it be worth just getting rid of Buerhle? People said here he was worth nothing in return, nothing, because of his age and salary.

Chris in Osaka
11-13-2012, 08:27 PM
This makes the Orioles the best bet for the cellar in the east.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:31 PM
Plus, why is no on talking about the Jays side? They are spending money and trying to win. That is awesome ownership. Awesome. Wish we had that here. An owner that would go get two starting pitchers and a potential all star SS. Maybe we do, maybe they'll go out and get some good to great players. We'll see. It has never happened in their history, but maybe this year is different.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 08:32 PM
This makes the Orioles the best bet for the cellar in the east.

Probably, they had a lot of guys play out their minds last year. Mostly pitching wise.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 08:34 PM
Plus, why is no on talking about the Jays side? They are spending money and trying to win. That is awesome ownership. Awesome. Wish we had that here. An owner that would go get two starting pitchers and a potential all star SS. Maybe we do, maybe they'll go out and get some good to great players. We'll see. It has never happened in their history, but maybe this year is different.

I hear what your saying, it would be nice for the Twins to go against the grain and go out and sign some guys but realistically, they probably wont. All we as Twins fans can do is hope they prove us wrong and spend some money, although spending money does not always equal success.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Agreed, spending money does not guarantee success. If you spend it well, it should increase the likelihood of success though. That's all anyone can do, work to increase the likelihood of the outcome you want.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:39 PM
This makes the Orioles the best bet for the cellar in the east.

Probably, they had a lot of guys play out their minds last year. Mostly pitching wise.

True, but they are adding one of the best minor league pitchers in the game to their staff next year. But yes, I would think they will be worse.

This may also make it more likely that TB blows up what they have. Now they have to compete with Toronto, Bos, NYY....maybe they look in the mirror and deal a couple of guys to reload. Maybe. Heck, their fans deserve that.....

mbents
11-13-2012, 08:50 PM
How about the Marlins' payroll in 2013? Dan Brooks is saying on Twitter he's heard it could be anywhere from about 12.5 million to 25 million. Wow. Just wow.

jorgenswest
11-13-2012, 08:56 PM
The value of prospects and young under control players has never been greater.

The value of a veteran has declined.

The only the Marlins unload a few of those bad contracts is to include others that are reasonable in the deal. They couldn't get anyone to take Buerhle unless they gave up something else.

It isn't going to be easy to get significant value for Morneau. The Twins need to buy prospects on the form of paying a good deal of his salary next year.

Rosterman
11-13-2012, 09:25 PM
Hummmm...who would the Twins have traded. Dozier, Blackburn, and what 5-6 prospects. Would a righty and lefty starter, a backup catcher, a shortstop, and a spare infielder have made the Twins more competitive?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 09:28 PM
So they are basically the Florida Marlins again. Pretty much the same team without last seasons free agent signings.

Mave
11-13-2012, 09:39 PM
The NHL is locked out, so Canada is gunning to take home the title in America's Pastime? Hmmm... So many things smell fishy here....

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 10:00 PM
This deal would have filled the 1 and 2 slots in the Twins rotation, and put Jose Reyes at SS, all for not much more than taking on salary.

Sounds too good to be true. I'm sure there is some logical reason the Twins couldn't have pulled this off.

Other than, uh, money, I mean.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 10:01 PM
Hummmm...who would the Twins have traded. Dozier, Blackburn, and what 5-6 prospects. Would a righty and lefty starter, a backup catcher, a shortstop, and a spare infielder have made the Twins more competitive?

Pitching wise, Buehrle might have been able to teach some of our up and coming pitcher (Scott Diamond) and Josh Johnson is an ace. Either way the money the the Blue Jays are taking on i dont think is worth the trade not at all (For the Twins).

Bark's Lounge
11-13-2012, 10:02 PM
Congratulations to the Argonauts! I must admit - it is a little disappointing Toronto didn't acquire Giancarlo also.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 10:44 PM
KLAW was less enamored of the return to Miami, and of course agreed with the general premise that reducing your payroll to essentially zero is impolite to the taxpayers that just built you a stadium, and that they now have zero chance to keep any players they draft and develop, or sign any free agents.

kydoty
11-13-2012, 10:58 PM
Giancarlo, your thoughts???

https://twitter.com/Giancarlo818/status/268502933832888322

PseudoSABR
11-13-2012, 11:00 PM
I can't imagine this working out for the Jays.

notoriousgod71
11-13-2012, 11:30 PM
Dozier, Deduno, Hendricks > Reyes, Johnson, Buehrle

goliath
11-13-2012, 11:51 PM
This is great for Mike Redmond, he gets to manage a naked roster

notoriousgod71
11-14-2012, 12:03 AM
This is great for Mike Redmond, he gets to manage a naked roster

If the Marlins win 50 games he should be Manager of the Year.

James
11-14-2012, 12:29 AM
That Buehrle contract is backloaded in a very unappealing way. Other than that though... this sounds like a deal that the commish probably should have blocked as to not have the city of Miami hate baseball forever.

This is just one of those deals that makes you think "What!?! Really!?! No.... this is some sort of joke, right?" At least that was my reaction when I first read about it.

James
11-14-2012, 12:31 AM
This is great for Mike Redmond, he gets to manage a naked roster

If the Marlins win 50 games he should be Manager of the Year.
If they win 60 games does he get a statue in front of the stadium?

iastfan112
11-14-2012, 01:11 AM
Prospect return is underwhelming. If you're going to torpedo your team for the foreseeable future, gamble hard on higher upside guys. How Loria is still an owner is beyond me, ran the Expos into the ground and is attempting to do the same in Miami.

I like but don't love it for the Jays, the way the contracts are constructed could cause problems down the line, depending on payroll of course, but they acquired a lot of talent while not giving up much prospect wise

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 01:38 AM
Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com hears that Ricky Nolasco could be the next Marlin traded.

The Marlins are already poised to dump $40 million in salary for 2013 on the Blue Jays, and if they can find someone to take on Nolasco's contract, it would make sense to go ahead and continue the firesale. The right-hander is due $11.5 million in 2013 after posting a 4.48 ERA and 125/47 K/BB ratio over 191 innings in 2012.


Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/268529000891154433)

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 02:17 AM
That trade help both teams. The Marlins don't look that bad and have lots of money to build with. Those 5 players just made the Jays great. Those 5 players would have made the Twins great too. For maybe Carroll, Dozier,Butera, Benson,Blackburn, Swarzak ect.

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 02:44 AM
1 CF Denard Span (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/03/denard-span-of-minnesota-twins-2.html)*
2 ss Reyes
3 3b Joe Mauer (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/03/joe-mauer-c-minnesota-twins-7.html)*
4 LF Josh Willingham (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/07/josh-willingham-of-washington-nationals.html)
5 1B Justin Morneau (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/03/justin-morneau-1b-minnesota-twins-33.html)*
6 c Buck
7 dh Trevor Plouffe (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2008/07/trevor-plouffe-if-minnesota-twins-24.html)
8 2B Bonifacio
9 rf Revere
1 RHP Johnson
2 LHP Buehrle
3 RHP Cole De Vries (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2012/01/cole-de-vries-rhp-minnesota-twins-38.html)
4 LHP Diamond
5 RHP Hendriks
Projected Bench
C Ryan Domitt**
1B/OF Chris Parmelee (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2011/07/chris-parmelee-1b-minnesota-twins-64.html)* BA#9 BP#15
IF Eduardo Escobar (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2011/07/eduardo-escobar-if-chicago-white-sox.html)** BA#11-CWS BP#7-CWS
OF Darin Mastroianni (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2011/07/darin-mastroianni-of-toronto-blue-jays.html)

SarasotaBill
11-14-2012, 06:02 AM
If the Marlins got top prospects then it's a good trade for them.

Reyes, Buehrle, and Buck were signed as expensive free agents and Johnson is in his walk year.

freshinthehouse
11-14-2012, 06:20 AM
3 3b Joe Mauer (http://www.mlbdepthcharts.com/2009/03/joe-mauer-c-minnesota-twins-7.html)*


2689

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 06:54 AM
Keith Law:

Those limocolous owners are the greatest joke of all in this deal, rooking Florida taxpayers for a publicly-funded stadium, only to make one half-hearted attempt to fill it with a contending team, surrendering it after the season to return to their old business model, playing a skeleton-crew lineup while pocketing all of their revenue-sharing money. This isn't a bad baseball deal for Miami, but it's not a baseball deal at all -- it's a boondoggle, perpetrated by owners who have pulled one stunt like this after another, with the implicit approval of the Commissioner's Office. It's time for baseball to rid itself of Jeff Loria and David Samson by any means possible. Miami, the state of Florida, and the sport in general will be better off without them.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 07:01 AM
This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

So, it's unrealistic to have the team raise payroll from 112.7M in 2011 to 125+M in 2013.

We can drop payroll by 18M like we did last year...which also gave us a payroll lower than what we had in 2010...but it's ridiculous to expect them to spend 125M+? If done smartly, why is this too much to ask them to do? Won't happen, of course, but why is it ridiculous to feel they should

old nurse
11-14-2012, 07:37 AM
This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

So, it's unrealistic to have the team raise payroll from 112.7M in 2011 to 125+M in 2013.

We can drop payroll by 18M like we did last year...which also gave us a payroll lower than what we had in 2010...but it's ridiculous to expect them to spend 125M+? If done smartly, why is this too much to ask them to do? Won't happen, of course, but why is it ridiculous to feel they shouldIf the Twins were adding 50 million in payroll it would push the budget to 150, not 125 million.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 07:49 AM
This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

So, it's unrealistic to have the team raise payroll from 112.7M in 2011 to 125+M in 2013.

We can drop payroll by 18M like we did last year...which also gave us a payroll lower than what we had in 2010...but it's ridiculous to expect them to spend 125M+? If done smartly, why is this too much to ask them to do? Won't happen, of course, but why is it ridiculous to feel they shouldIf the Twins were adding 50 million in payroll it would push the budget to 150, not 125 million.

The number HE quoted was 125+M...THAT is the number I'm talking about.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 07:55 AM
Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com hears that Ricky Nolasco could be the next Marlin traded.

The Marlins are already poised to dump $40 million in salary for 2013 on the Blue Jays, and if they can find someone to take on Nolasco's contract, it would make sense to go ahead and continue the firesale. The right-hander is due $11.5 million in 2013 after posting a 4.48 ERA and 125/47 K/BB ratio over 191 innings in 2012.


Source: Ken Rosenthal on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/268529000891154433)

Nolasco's K/9 rate has gone from 9.5 in 2009 to 5.9 in 2012.

Ouch.

old nurse
11-14-2012, 08:08 AM
This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

So, it's unrealistic to have the team raise payroll from 112.7M in 2011 to 125+M in 2013.

We can drop payroll by 18M like we did last year...which also gave us a payroll lower than what we had in 2010...but it's ridiculous to expect them to spend 125M+? If done smartly, why is this too much to ask them to do? Won't happen, of course, but why is it ridiculous to feel they shouldIf the Twins were adding 50 million in payroll it would push the budget to 150, not 125 million.

The number HE quoted was 125+M...THAT is the number I'm talking about.

Okay, I will comment on your comment then. The Twins are a business. They are not going to spend money just to spend money. Marquis and Zumaya were risks/reward that went bust. More than likely, there was nothing else out there that Ryan liked for the money. Part two. "If done smartly" Different things posted by the people coordinating this site would lead me to believe that Ryan has a budget and an upper limit if spent wisely.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 08:17 AM
We're always shopping for blue light specials...yes, last year we got Willingham, Doumit and Carroll (none of them too heavily sought out based on what we paid), but we also lost Nathan, Cuddyer, Kubel and a couple others. Did we come out ahead? Maybe a little bit, especially when you consider the difference in pay, but we didn't take that saved money and do anything to address our biggest need.

If people wanna give Ryan a pass for not spending...especially to acquire much needed pitching that everyone and his brother knew we needed, that's their choice. I choose not to do that. I choose not to keep saying, 'well, that guy wasn't worth that anyway' every time we see someone signed that we really could have used. I've done enough of that over the years

An unfortunate part of today's game is that, in order to acquire quality pitching, you have to overspend...cause the people you're competing with will. Ryan sliced out payroll and did nothing to help our most glaring need...pitching.

Brandon
11-14-2012, 09:00 AM
We'll probably get 2 solid starters and sign Livan Hernandez to round out the rotation. Maybe they'll finish the job next offseason maybe they will wait for players to develop and promote from within. maybe we are aiming to be a .500 club to placate a fan base. Either way the Twins will make the moves that they see as reasonable that will do the most that they feel they can with what they have to make us competetive. At least we are not Marlins fans.

MLB should force ownership change there. I also hope they average less than 1000 fans per game until that happens for attendance.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 09:34 AM
We'll probably get 2 solid starters and sign Livan Hernandez to round out the rotation. Maybe they'll finish the job next offseason maybe they will wait for players to develop and promote from within. maybe we are aiming to be a .500 club to placate a fan base. Either way the Twins will make the moves that they see as reasonable that will do the most that they feel they can with what they have to make us competetive. At least we are not Marlins fans.

MLB should force ownership change there. I also hope they average less than 1000 fans per game until that happens for attendance.

What constitutes 2 solid starters?

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Thank God the Vikings have the go ahead for a new stadium... This type of ownership action could put a monkey wrench in stadium deals across the country in all sports. It smells of legal theft. It won't be good for the health of baseball in Southern Florida. Major perception problem to come.

As for the trade... It looks like the Marlins got a package that would have been worth Jose Reyes alone but I really have nothing to judge it against... This is one of the largest trades ever so its unprecedented.

It's a stunner... I just wonder if the Marlins could have gotten more by sending pieces across the league. Instead one large deal like this.

nicksaviking
11-14-2012, 09:48 AM
Thank God the Vikings have the go ahead for a new stadium... This type of ownership action could put a monkey wrench in stadium deals across the country in all sports. It smells of legal theft. It won't be good for the health of baseball in Southern Florida. Major perception problem to come.

As for the trade... It looks like the Marlins got a package that would have been worth Jose Reyes alone but I really have nothing to judge it against... This is one of the largest trades ever so its unprecedented.

It's a stunner... I just wonder if the Marlins could have gotten more by sending pieces across the league. Instead one large deal like this.

You'd have to think so. I assume the Blue Jays didn't have to give up the farm because of their willingness to take on all that salary. Had the salary been spread over three teams it would not have been much of an issue for the buyers. Seriously, how do the Marlins not come away with either of Toronto's young catchers OR one of the Jay's top two pitching prospects? The only possible hard thrower they got is in A ball and the only player with possible offensive upside looked terrible in his AA call up last year. If I was a Marlins fan I'd be in revolt.

Winston Smith
11-14-2012, 10:10 AM
The Marlins lost 183 games the last 2 years and have decided what they were doing doesn't work. Trading all these guys, clearing payroll and bringing in some prospects may or may not work but they are moving in a new direction. Some young players to work with and a lot of money to spend or pocket could work, they have made this work before. I wish Red luck, gonna be a long year for him.

The Twins lost 195 games the last 2 years and at this point they haven't really shown what the plan is for fixing it. The Marlins decided to blow things up and it appears that the Ryan approach will be using bandaids.

Making radical changes when things are bad or staying the course hoping for better times that is the conundrum. Time will tell.

old nurse
11-14-2012, 10:22 AM
Vodka Dave must be on suicide watch as the Marlins gave away Josh Johnson for almost nothing.

I think it would be a safe assumption in talks with other clubs the Marlins were asked for money. The money saved in this trade seems more valuable to the Marlins than the players received in return. The package received might have been worth only one of the major players involved from a talent standpoint, but the trade was about money. The Marlins will not lose more of it with the trade.

Free agents will still sign with Miami if the money is offered. Any of the players they signed should have known the Marlin's history. It will happen again.

Lastly, the Marlins had a poor record with these players and the others that were traded at the deadline. I would say they are starting over like an expansion franchise and hoping to get as lucky as the Nationals did in consecutive drafts.

kab21
11-14-2012, 10:35 AM
This salary dump is really ugly from a PR perspective but the backloaded aspect of Buehrle and Reyes salary are pretty good reasons for them to do this deal. And they did pick up some decent prospects. they aren't great but they have 3 prospects with pretty good upside.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 10:43 AM
This is one of the most idiotic things i have ever seen. The Blue Jays just added 50 million in payroll. Be realistic here, there is no way the Twins would up the payroll to 125 + million......cmon now....

So, it's unrealistic to have the team raise payroll from 112.7M in 2011 to 125+M in 2013.

We can drop payroll by 18M like we did last year...which also gave us a payroll lower than what we had in 2010...but it's ridiculous to expect them to spend 125M+? If done smartly, why is this too much to ask them to do? Won't happen, of course, but why is it ridiculous to feel they shouldIf the Twins were adding 50 million in payroll it would push the budget to 150, not 125 million.



Ummm hello....whats the Twins payroll as of right now somewhere in vicinity of 75 million so if we add 50 million it would be about 125 million, i wasnt talking about our payroll last season during the season, im talking about now that certain contracts are off the payroll and whatnot. Its the Twins...if we are lucky we will see them spend maybe....maybe 115 million at the most, the 1112.7 was a complete aberration and you can make a likely bet it sure as heck is not happening this year and it likely never will.

Rosterman
11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
Plus, we get two top of the rotation starters, largely keep everyone else intact, have room for Hendriks and Gibson in the back of the rotation. Next year, have to find another starter, can trade/lose Morneau and Span, contemplate replacing Willingham. Right now, the Twins roster (like the Marlins) sits at 32 players....20 whom are largely major league regular worthy. The Blue Jays sit at 40 before the trade, so they have to jettison some players (watch the waiver wire...Adam Lind available again?) It was a good way to fill the roster...and who says you can't turn around and trade ANY of those guys if it doesn't work this mid-season or the off-season.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
Ummm hello....whats the Twins payroll as of right now somewhere in vicinity of 75 million so if we add 50 million it would be about 125 million, i wasnt talking about our payroll last season during the season, im talking about now that certain contracts are off the payroll and whatnot. Its the Twins...if we are lucky we will see them spend maybe....maybe 115 million at the most, the 1112.7 was a complete aberration and you can make a likely bet it sure as heck is not happening this year and it likely never will.

None of that makes it ridiculous to feel that they SHOULD be able to spend 125+M. We know realistically they won't...I already said that...but that doesn't make it ridiculous to think that we should be spending more, based on what the tax payers were told when the team was begging for a new stadium to be mostly funded by the taxpayers.

Our payroll in 2007 was 71+M. That was 6 seasons ago. Think about how much salaries have gone up in 6 years. They fandangled a new stadium and team salary last year was 94M? 23M dollar increase...less than 4M per season on average...you think that covers increase in salaries around the league? AND they have a new ballpark, with all the increased revenue.

It's a good thing the new ballpark was paid for so we could add a whopping 23M to the payroll...

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
There is no reason the Twins couldn't have a $125m payroll, other than ownership chooses not to.

There is no salary cap, and revenues clearly support that level of spending. They choose instead to use revenues to pay for their share of stadium costs, rather than contribute their own money as they said they would. All while still pulling annual operating profits out of the club as well as having the value of the franchise double almost overnight.

if you're OK with that, fine. I'm not. That's not what ownership that wants to win would do, much less ownership that feels obligated to living up to the promises they made when negotiating for a new stadium.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 11:30 AM
Ummm hello....whats the Twins payroll as of right now somewhere in vicinity of 75 million so if we add 50 million it would be about 125 million, i wasnt talking about our payroll last season during the season, im talking about now that certain contracts are off the payroll and whatnot. Its the Twins...if we are lucky we will see them spend maybe....maybe 115 million at the most, the 1112.7 was a complete aberration and you can make a likely bet it sure as heck is not happening this year and it likely never will.

None of that makes it ridiculous to feel that they SHOULD be able to spend 125+M. We know realistically they won't...I already said that...but that doesn't make it ridiculous to think that we should be spending more, based on what the tax payers were told when the team was begging for a new stadium to be mostly funded by the taxpayers.

Our payroll in 2007 was 71+M. That was 6 seasons ago. Think about how much salaries have gone up in 6 years. They fandangled a new stadium and team salary last year was 94M? 23M dollar increase...less than 4M per season on average...you think that covers increase in salaries around the league? AND they have a new ballpark, with all the increased revenue.

It's a good thing the new ballpark was paid for so we could add a whopping 23M to the payroll...

We all knew it would happen. Loria just like Pohlad are cheap as hell. Pohlad pulled a fast one on Minnesota and Loria pulled a colassal fast one on Miami. Either way as long as Pohlad owns the twins we will always be a cheap team.

righty8383
11-14-2012, 11:52 AM
We all knew it would happen. Loria just like Pohlad are cheap as hell. Pohlad pulled a fast one on Minnesota and Loria pulled a colassal fast one on Miami. Either way as long as Pohlad owns the twins we will always be a cheap team.

Totally disagree...The Pohlads are not my favorite choice for owners either, but I would take them any day over Loria. Loria is a shameless pig and a thief. He's a leach on major League baseball and if I were another owner I would take any steps necessary to have him removed as owner of the Marlins

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
We all knew it would happen. Loria just like Pohlad are cheap as hell. Pohlad pulled a fast one on Minnesota and Loria pulled a colassal fast one on Miami. Either way as long as Pohlad owns the twins we will always be a cheap team.

Totally disagree...The Pohlads are not my favorite choice for owners either, but I would take them any day over Loria. Loria is a shameless pig and a thief. He's a leach on major League baseball and if I were another owner I would take any steps necessary to have him removed as owner of the Marlins

I didnt say Pohlad was as bad as Loria. I did say both are cheap as hell. I agree Loria should be removed as an owner, shame on him, shame on Bud Selig.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 12:09 PM
If this deal is so lopsided that the commissioner should be fired, why are people defending the Twins for not making it?

Fatt Crapps
11-14-2012, 12:13 PM
At least the city of Miami still has that beautiful stadium they so desperately wanted.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 12:14 PM
If this deal is so lopsided that the commissioner should be fired, why are people defending the Twins for not making it?

Nobody is really defending the Twins for not making it. Its just Twins fans are so use to our front office being complacent that we arent surpised that the Twins did pull this trade off themselves.

Jim Crikket
11-14-2012, 12:15 PM
We all knew it would happen. Loria just like Pohlad are cheap as hell. Pohlad pulled a fast one on Minnesota and Loria pulled a colassal fast one on Miami. Either way as long as Pohlad owns the twins we will always be a cheap team.

Totally disagree...The Pohlads are not my favorite choice for owners either, but I would take them any day over Loria. Loria is a shameless pig and a thief. He's a leach on major League baseball and if I were another owner I would take any steps necessary to have him removed as owner of the Marlins

I've never been one of the knee-jerk over-the-top critics of Twins management and ownership, but I've just got to say this much: While what Loria is doing just one year after opening his new publicly funded ballpark deserves all of the criticism he's getting, I think what the Twins have done over the past two years is not a lot less reprehensible. It's a matter of degrees, certainly, since the Twins jacked up salaries for one year and, since then are apparently allowing it to fall back while making little effort to field a championship caliber team over the course of 2-3 seasons, rather than just one, as Loria is doing.

The Baker deal and the Hunter deal, both going for about twice what some folks (including the TwinsCentric crew) projected, along with the Jays' trade, clearly indicate to me that SOME teams are willing to step up immediately and start spending money now rather than waiting until the new MLB media rights deal pumps the additional $25 million in revenues in to their pockets.

Spending 50% of revenues on MLB payroll was quite possibly a very legitimate business model for the Metrodome Twins. I've never believed that their expenses rose so much at Target Field that maintaining that model was necessary. There's certainly NO reason that holding back half of the $25 million in additional media revenues that kick in during 2014 is necessary.

If the Twins do nothing but shop in the bargain bins and nibble around the edges this offseason, without making any legitimate effort to improve the product on the field in 2013, their ownership very well may deserve to be lumped in with the Jeffrey Lorias of the world. Twins fans, especially those who are paying for most of their new stadium, deserve better just as much as Miami residents do.

righty8383
11-14-2012, 12:33 PM
I've never been one of the knee-jerk over-the-top critics of Twins management and ownership, but I've just got to say this much: While what Loria is doing just one year after opening his new publicly funded ballpark deserves all of the criticism he's getting, I think what the Twins have done over the past two years is not a lot less reprehensible. It's a matter of degrees, certainly, since the Twins jacked up salaries for one year and, since then are apparently allowing it to fall back while making little effort to field a championship caliber team over the course of 2-3 seasons, rather than just one, as Loria is doing.

The Baker deal and the Hunter deal, both going for about twice what some folks (including the TwinsCentric crew) projected, along with the Jays' trade, clearly indicate to me that SOME teams are willing to step up immediately and start spending money now rather than waiting until the new MLB media rights deal pumps the additional $25 million in revenues in to their pockets.

Spending 50% of revenues on MLB payroll was quite possibly a very legitimate business model for the Metrodome Twins. I've never believed that their expenses rose so much at Target Field that maintaining that model was necessary. There's certainly NO reason that holding back half of the $25 million in additional media revenues that kick in during 2014 is necessary.

If the Twins do nothing but shop in the bargain bins and nibble around the edges this offseason, without making any legitimate effort to improve the product on the field in 2013, their ownership very well may deserve to be lumped in with the Jeffrey Lorias of the world. Twins fans, especially those who are paying for most of their new stadium, deserve better just as much as Miami residents do.

Tough to argue with some of your points. I guess my main point is that while the Pohlads may not spend money like we wish they would, at least they aren't taking revenue from other teams (like the Marlins have and soon will again) and put it in thier pockets.

Not sure how many fans the Marlins are gonna have left. I do feel sorry for any loyal fans that might remain with that team. Just like a feel bad for anyone that was a loyal Expos fan before Loria alienated that fanbase and ran the team into the ground.

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 12:43 PM
Where do you get 50M from? Marlins clearly states it dump 40M plus they throw in 4M so now you are down to 36M.

JB_Iowa
11-14-2012, 01:06 PM
The Marlins have been in existence for 20 years and have 2 World Series championships in that time. How many do the Twins have in a similar period? And 1 of those championships was under present ownership (and both came after fire sales).

I'm not defending Marlins ownership here but I really think that the Twins need to rethink the 50% policy. There are times for bringing up young players and rebuilding -- and spending less than 50%. Then there are times that the team is mature and the team should be spending significantly more than 50%.

There's certainly no reason that the Twins couldn't spend more than 50% on a regular basis (larger revenues should allow you to assign a larger percentage to player personnel) but at a minimum, they need to rethink the overall policy.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 01:10 PM
There's certainly no reason that the Twins couldn't spend more than 50% on a regular basis (larger revenues should allow you to assign a larger percentage to player personnel) but at a minimum, they need to rethink the overall policy.

To expect them to do that, one would have to assume their goal is to win a W Series championship...as opposed to creating a team to be competitive within the division

Top Gun
11-14-2012, 01:22 PM
The Marlins can't compete with the Nats & Braves so they cash in. They will still probably beat the Mets.



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CDog
11-14-2012, 01:42 PM
If this deal is so lopsided that the commissioner should be fired, why are people defending the Twins for not making it?

I have very little idea how good the players the Jays sent the Marlins are, but as I was reading this thread I was asking myself this same question. And it's not even a matter of different posters taking up different extreme sides as there are cases of the same poster making both claims. (That the deal was ridiculous and awful by the Marlins AND that the Twins were wise not to be on the other end of it). I don't get that.

JB_Iowa
11-14-2012, 01:49 PM
There's certainly no reason that the Twins couldn't spend more than 50% on a regular basis (larger revenues should allow you to assign a larger percentage to player personnel) but at a minimum, they need to rethink the overall policy.

To expect them to do that, one would have to assume their goal is to win a W Series championship...as opposed to creating a team to be competitive within the division

Well, I don't expect them to do so. I would have no problem with suffering through miserable seasons if I saw it as part of a rebuilding mode. But I don't see that with the Twins. I honestly believe that their primary goal is to be "just good enough" to keep b*tts in the seats for most of the season. I wish they'd do SOMETHING that would convince me that they are genuinely interested in winning a championship not just making a profit. (That something wouldn't have to be a major free agent signing -- it could just be making some genuine trades to improve the ballclub in the long-run rather than just last-minute dumps of players they don't want to re-sign.)

nicksaviking
11-14-2012, 02:28 PM
Time to calm down everyone, the Marlins totally redeemed themselves, they just signed John Maine.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 02:30 PM
I honestly believe that their primary goal is to be "just good enough" to keep b*tts in the seats for most of the season. I wish they'd do SOMETHING that would convince me that they are genuinely interested in winning a championship not just making a profit. (That something wouldn't have to be a major free agent signing -- it could just be making some genuine trades to improve the ballclub in the long-run rather than just last-minute dumps of players they don't want to re-sign.)

Exactly

Danchat
11-14-2012, 03:10 PM
A la contraire, I think the Marlins are making a good move. They are dumping lots of money and getting some pretty good prospects. They admit they made a huge mistake last year, and they are ready to rebuild. That's better than the Twins and Vikings last year, where we thought we could still be good when we're a last place team! Time to re-build! The Marlins are saving themselves from pain in the future.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-14-2012, 03:41 PM
Time to calm down everyone, the Marlins totally redeemed themselves, they just signed John Maine.

Umm they did not sign John Maine, they signed Scott Maine a relief pitcher with the Blue Jays who was designated for assignment with a 6+ ERA

Kwak
11-14-2012, 04:52 PM
I thought the FAs last year by the Marlins was foolish, and window dressing for their new stadium. That they realized this (or maybe this dump was in their plan all along) was a smart idea. The 2012 Marlins were a bad ballclub and needed to be "blown-up". If MLB owners wanted more competition--they could simply reduce the revenue sharing (and the luxury tax) formula which would force all teams to compete to sell tickets and build revenues. But when a team can operate on a minute payroll, sell a few thousand tickets per game--and still make a handsome profit--then it's MLB's problem. The owners are the only ones that can fix this. Other threads are available for discussion of how the Twins should proceed.

Gopher Nation
11-14-2012, 05:47 PM
Loria is bad for baseball. Is this where we are headed.

A team such as the Twins, bereft of talent in minor leagues, can sign the top 4 free agents by outbidding everybody this year on back-loaded contracts without no-trade clauses just so they can sell them to other organizations next year for an influx of young talent. A way to get some tradeable assets without giving anything up to acquire good young prospects.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 09:59 PM
How does anyone know for sure that Terry Ryan wasn't on the phone with the Marlins trying to pull the deal together and the Marlins chose the Blue Jays offer.

Just because the trade was made with the Jays doesn't mean that the Twins didn't put their best foot forward.

I don't think money is the issue... They could have made the trade and salary dumped Morneau and payroll would have been pretty reasonable.

Its quite possible that the Twins didn't have the trade chips that interested the Marlins to pull the deal off.

Sometimes it seems the bubble we live in is a little blinding. We have anger at TR because two other squads made a trade. How does this make sense?