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Seth Stohs
11-13-2012, 10:50 AM
According to several sources (including MLB's), the Cubs have signed RHP Scott Baker to a one year contract. More information to come.

Boom Boom
11-13-2012, 10:53 AM
Hmm, a one-year-deal?

I'd be surprised if the Cubs' offer was significantly more than the Twins were willing to give Baker. Sounds like Scott didn't want to come back as much as we thought.

mikeee
11-13-2012, 10:55 AM
Well at least we won't have to worry about how the gamble on baker's recovery turns out.

Parker Hageman
11-13-2012, 10:57 AM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Boom Boom
11-13-2012, 11:05 AM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

minn55441
11-13-2012, 11:10 AM
I'll be interested to see how much guaranteed money the got. I always liked Baker, but don't see him contributing until the second half of the season. I wonder how many real offers he received? If you are looking for a chance to prove yourself on a one year deal, I don't think I would pick the Cubs.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 11:11 AM
Let the feverish re-writing of all the variations of "3 (4?) Easy Steps to 2013 Twins Rotation Bliss" posts begin.

John Bonnes
11-13-2012, 11:20 AM
$5.5M for one-year, plus incentives for a guy who had TJ in April? And no option year?

You're welcome to him Theo. Congrats to Scotty's agent. (My guess is you'll be hearing from Colby Lewis shortly.)

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 11:21 AM
Well, this is a little disappointing. I hope he does well with the Cubs. There are plenty of other pitching options available, so no harm. I think the Twins should offer a similar deal to Rich Harden. But, you know of course for less money and more "incentives"!

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 11:21 AM
I'll be interested to see how much guaranteed money the got. I always liked Baker, but don't see him contributing until the second half of the season. I wonder how many real offers he received? If you are looking for a chance to prove yourself on a one year deal, I don't think I would pick the Cubs.

face it we are the poor american leaque version of the cubs , hey nice job terry lyan

SarasotaBill
11-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Obviously this hurts.

Hopefully Ryan signs two legit FA SP and trade for another.

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 11:22 AM
Commence "but, but, but its only November...relax!" posts in 3...2...1

Jeremy Nygaard
11-13-2012, 11:24 AM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

I heard talks broke down when Baker got wind of thrylos leaking inside information.

Seriously though, I'm bummed to hear that Baker left and even more bummed to hear that this is the going rate for pitching.

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 11:28 AM
Obviously this hurts.

Hopefully Ryan signs two legit FA SP and trade for another.

terry(my lipps are moving)lyans? jaime moyer and kevin correia and then trades for kevin slowey ...see we can compete on the cheap , hey jippy do i get another bonus for reducing payroll?

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 11:28 AM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

I heard talks broke down when Baker got wind of thrylos leaking inside information.

Seriously though, I'm bummed to hear that Baker left and even more bummed to hear that this is the going rate for pitching.

I don't think this is going to be the conventional thing we'll see. One has to think the Cubs overpaid quite a bit to pry him away from the Twins, seeing as how much he liked it here. I really don't mind losing him. He's a huge question mark after TJ and the Twins are not in a position to gamble rotation wise.

NoCryingInBaseball
11-13-2012, 11:30 AM
Damn!...I was hoping he might come back with the Twins, even though he was returning from Tommy John. I agree with the Twins that $5.5 million was too much.

Parker Hageman
11-13-2012, 11:30 AM
$5.5M for one-year, plus incentives for a guy who had TJ in April? And now option year?

You're welcome to him Theo. Congrats to Scotty's agent.

I haven't seen anything that has said an option year. Plus, I don't see what that is so hard to accept as what is a normal deal in the MLB. Revenues have gone up and the cost of acquiring FA talent has gone up.

Roy Oswalt -- who was DOA in 2011 -- received a $5M contract with $1M in incentives to pitch from May onward of last year. Baker has a much higher upside if healthy and will likely be full strength by May or June. Not a bad deal for either side.

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 11:34 AM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

I heard talks broke down when Baker got wind of thrylos leaking inside information.

Seriously though, I'm bummed to hear that Baker left and even more bummed to hear that this is the going rate for pitching.

that acquiring pitching is going to be expensive, one way or another, should not be surprising to anyone.

Either pay the going rate, or accept that The Dedunos of the world will form a large part of the foreseeable rotation. Wishing it were not so isn't a strategy likely to work.

birdwatcher
11-13-2012, 11:38 AM
Hey, relax. It's only November.

There you go, Chief.

John Bonnes
11-13-2012, 11:40 AM
$5.5M for one-year, plus incentives for a guy who had TJ in April? And now option year?

You're welcome to him Theo. Congrats to Scotty's agent.

I haven't seen anything that has said an option year. Plus, I don't see what that is so hard to accept as what is a normal deal in the MLB. Revenues have gone up and the cost of acquiring FA talent has gone up.

Roy Oswalt -- who was DOA in 2011 -- received a $5M contract with $1M in incentives to pitch from May onward of last year. Baker has a much higher upside if healthy and will likely be full strength by May or June. Not a bad deal for either side.


I mistyped. I meant "no option year."

The market for Baker was set by the deal Colby Lewis took a few months ago. Lewis has had better years than Baker, is coming off a smaller injury and is more likely to be 100% when teh season starts. And he took a $2M + $4M in incentive. Baker got nearly that much guaranteed.

gunnarthor
11-13-2012, 11:44 AM
Baker should do better in the NL. The frightening thing for the Twins isn't losing Baker but the cost of pitching. 5.5 + 1.5 in incentives for a guy coming off TJ? Who has one 200 ip season? Who is 31? I was hoping Marcum would come on a 1 yr 8m or so but, cripes, that's way low now.

Give the Cubs credit, they have money and aren't afraid to use it.

Ex-Iowegian
11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Wow. That's a lot of jing for a guy fresh off of TJ.
And why would he be on the Cub's short list?

Boom Boom
11-13-2012, 11:46 AM
I'm not a big fan of Baker so I won't lose sleep over this. Whatever Plan B is, though, I hope it's a good one.

Riverbrian
11-13-2012, 11:51 AM
If it's 5.5 Million... Good Gravy... Let him go... Congrats to you Scott... Good Luck in Chicago... Still more FA options to consider and put a bid in for.

Parker Hageman
11-13-2012, 11:51 AM
Lewis has had better years than Baker, is coming off a smaller injury and is more likely to be 100% when teh season starts. And he took a $2M + $4M in incentive. Baker got nearly that much guaranteed.

Two things:

(1) Lewis was already under team control when he sided his contract. Without competing against the free market, the Rangers were able to secure a discount.

(2) Lewis had TJ in July while Baker had it in April. I would say Baker has a much better chance of providing innings in 2012 than Lewis.

minn55441
11-13-2012, 11:53 AM
Baker should do better in the NL. The frightening thing for the Twins isn't losing Baker but the cost of pitching. 5.5 + 1.5 in incentives for a guy coming off TJ? Who has one 200 ip season? Who is 31? I was hoping Marcum would come on a 1 yr 8m or so but, cripes, that's way low now.

Give the Cubs credit, they have money and aren't afraid to use it.

My thoughts exactly. That is a lot of money for a guy that won't be ready to pitch in April. If we need three starters better than Baker, will any of them sign at a price less than $10 per year?

Granted, I'm sure Baker received a little more because it was a one year deal as apposed to a multi-year offer, but this could really be a bad sign for the costs of SP going forward. Perhaps Boras was correct, the new TV money will in fact be spent.

sorney
11-13-2012, 11:54 AM
D'oh! Congrats to him

Willihammer
11-13-2012, 11:59 AM
Dang, that hurts.

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
Its not like Baker was stellar for us year in and year out. 2 good years in a 7 year career for the Twins. Not worth 5.5 million dollar for a guy coming off TJ.

luckylager
11-13-2012, 12:10 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 12:11 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

Todd G
11-13-2012, 12:18 PM
A flyball pitcher coming off of TJ in Wrigley . . . good luck with that.

gunnarthor
11-13-2012, 12:22 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 12:26 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

and Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Please
11-13-2012, 12:30 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

and Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Julio Lugo and Renteria.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 12:31 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

Yup, and he put together two W Series champions as well...in a town that hadn't had one in how many years? Crawford wasn't forseeable...anyone who says he saw that coming is a straight up liar.

Now name all the good signings...and drafts...like Pedroia, for example. How many times did the Twins pass on Pedroia again? 6 times?

Please
11-13-2012, 12:33 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

Yup, and he put together two W Series champions as well...in a town that hadn't had one in how many years? Crawford wasn't forseeable...anyone who says he saw that coming is a straight up liar.

Now name all the good signings...and drafts...like Pedroia, for example. How many times did the Twins pass on Pedroia again? 6 times?


The core of 2004 was signed before Theo got to Boston.

Theo didn't draft Pedroia, he was drafted by the pervious regime.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 12:40 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

Yup, and he put together two W Series champions as well...in a town that hadn't had one in how many years? Crawford wasn't forseeable...anyone who says he saw that coming is a straight up liar.

Now name all the good signings...and drafts...like Pedroia, for example. How many times did the Twins pass on Pedroia again? 6 times?


The core of 2004 was signed before Theo got to Boston.

Theo didn't draft Pedroia, he was drafted by the pervious regime.

What? Epstein took over GM duties from Mike Port at the end of 2002. Pedroia was drafted in 2004.

Brock Beauchamp
11-13-2012, 12:43 PM
Yikes. I hate to lose Baker but that's a lot of money for a guy who may not be ready on Opening Day.

spideyo
11-13-2012, 12:47 PM
Well...if he performs well with the Cubs this will be disappointing. If he sucks, it will be a relief.

I imagine it was a difficult decision for the Twins. He's coming off a serious injury, and while he has mostly been very good, it seems like he's always been prone to giving up the long ball. You want to show loyalty to a guy that's worked really hard for us, and given us some really good performances, but going into a year where upgrading our starting pitching is an absolute #1 fans-will-revolt-if-we-don't priority, investing much money into a guy coming off TJ surgery is pretty risky, especially when you consider that he hasn't actually started a MLB game since August 8 2011.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 12:48 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

Yup, and he put together two W Series champions as well...in a town that hadn't had one in how many years? Crawford wasn't forseeable...anyone who says he saw that coming is a straight up liar.

Now name all the good signings...and drafts...like Pedroia, for example. How many times did the Twins pass on Pedroia again? 6 times?

He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

nicksaviking
11-13-2012, 12:58 PM
Shocking, next verse same as the first i guess. Whoever thought the glut of mid-teir pitching was going to cause the free agent pitching market to produce a bunch of bargains is wrong for the 20th straight year. Like it or not, if the Twins want to sign a pitcher with any history of accomplishment, they will likely still have to pay top dollar, just as required every year.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

He also signed David Ortiz and Curt Schilling...and then he won two World Series titles before his 34th birthday. Ryan has one playoff series win in more years on the job than Epstein and will turn 60 next year. Yes, Epstein had more payroll at his disposal than Ryan, but he also competed in the toughest division in baseball. I know which one I'd take first in a GM expansion draft.

Rosterman
11-13-2012, 12:59 PM
I thought we had him locked up for 3 years. Which post is right?!

beckmt
11-13-2012, 01:02 PM
A lot of money. It almost make Sanchez look good at 6 years for $90. Now it looks like he will get than. TR looks like he has to make some signings early to make this happen and it will be more money than expected. Such is life.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-13-2012, 01:02 PM
This blows, 5.5 isn't a ton of money on a one year deal, if he even pitches like the scott baker of old for 3/5ths of the season its a steal for the Cubs.

I wish him the best of luck, filling the rotation just got that much harder seeing how anyone we can get for 5.5 mil on the open market is going to be more of the dog**** like Hernandez, Ortiz etc

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 01:03 PM
He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

Rubbish. He competed in a division where you win 95 games and cross your fingers for a wildcard berth, and won his second World Series at age 33.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

He also signed David Ortiz and Curt Schilling...and then he won two World Series titles before his 34th birthday. Ryan has one playoff series win in more years on the job than Epstein and will turn 60 next year. Yes, Epstein had more payroll at his disposal than Ryan, but he also competed in the toughest division in baseball. I know which one I'd take first in a GM expansion draft.

Exactly...and it's not like the Cubs have been notorious penny pushers. The did cut payroll last year, but I doubt they continue to cut a bunch. I stand by my statement he's smarter than the people we have running our ship.

spideyo
11-13-2012, 01:10 PM
He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

Rubbish. He competed in a division where you win 95 games and cross your fingers for a wildcard berth, and won his second World Series at age 33.


I don't care how good he is. It's still the Cubs. You pretty much have to be a wizard to make that team decent

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 01:11 PM
No surprise. And the chorus begins in justification of the twins not signing him. That chorus will be repeated player after player. To sign a legit free agent, you need to overpay.

notoriousgod71
11-13-2012, 01:14 PM
The disappointing part of this is that I now can't even imagine what FA we are going to sign. Blanton and Correia may be wishful thinking at this point. It'll be Chad Gaudin and Mike Morgan.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 01:19 PM
He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

Rubbish. He competed in a division where you win 95 games and cross your fingers for a wildcard berth, and won his second World Series at age 33.

The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

071063
11-13-2012, 01:27 PM
For that money, the Cubs can have him. Everyone seems to forget that the first year after TJ surgery, most mortals (Strasburg not included) struggle. The Cubs overpaid and with no option (if that is truely the case) than this is a great deal for Baker and a terrible deal for the Cubs. Even though I wanted Baker back, not at this price.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 01:30 PM
I don't care how good he is. It's still the Cubs. You pretty much have to be a wizard to make that team decent

Score so far: Epstein 1, franchise curses 0. The Cubs are a tougher rebuild project than the Sox were in 2002, and nobody is saying Theo hasn't made some bad calls. What GM hasn't? But I wouldn't bet against a GM as highly regarded as Epstein.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 01:32 PM
It's Epstein not Einstein, and don't forget the bottomless pit of cash factor.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 01:33 PM
He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

Rubbish. He competed in a division where you win 95 games and cross your fingers for a wildcard berth, and won his second World Series at age 33.

The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

Toronto won at least 80 games in 7 of those 9 seasons...had a winning record in 6 of those 9. And TB went to the playoffs three times in his last 4 seasons as Boston's GM, and they won 84 games the other year.

Curt
11-13-2012, 01:33 PM
I think this is a pretty good gamble for the Cubs. I thought the Twins might pick him up for less guaranteed but demand for pitching habitually outstrips supply. It is a seller's market.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 01:45 PM
The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

Actually that's two "random" World Series wins in his first five seasons as GM, sunshine. Maybe the Twins can find a lucky GM like that too someday. And if you think the AL East was a cakewalk during his best seasons, I think you're in the minority.

joeboo_22
11-13-2012, 01:47 PM
The Cubs can afford to make this gamble, the Twins can't. Its just as simple as that, if the Twins spend $5.5 and has problems and pitches less then 50 innings it has a much larger impact on the Twins then it does on the Cubs. The Cubs need pitching and have the money to gamble on guys like Baker, the Twins don't have that luxury. Wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs traded him if he is having a decent season when the deadline happens.

John Bonnes
11-13-2012, 01:48 PM
Two things:

(1) Lewis was already under team control when he sided his contract. Without competing against the free market, the Rangers were able to secure a discount.
(2) Lewis had TJ in July while Baker had it in April. I would say Baker has a much better chance of providing innings in 2012 than Lewis.

I don't know if it was Tommy John, but you're right - Baker will likely be healthier. Either way, I don't see the point of a deal like this if there isn't an option year. I can't believe a team is going to get more than half a good year out of him in his first year back from TJ.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 01:50 PM
It's Epstein not Einstein, and don't forget the bottomless pit of cash factor.

So payroll guarantees not only regular season wins but playoff success? Good to know; seems I've read a bunch on this site and elsewhere that was wrong about those things.

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 01:54 PM
The Cubs can afford to make this gamble, the Twins can't. Its just as simple as that, if the Twins spend $5.5 and has problems and pitches less then 50 innings it has a much larger impact on the Twins then it does on the Cubs. The Cubs need pitching and have the money to gamble on guys like Baker, the Twins don't have that luxury. Wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs traded him if he is having a decent season when the deadline happens.

Exactly. The Cubs didn't bring in Epstein just for a long, slow, bare-bones rebuilding project. He should have the kind of payroll flexibility that allows him to take a flyer on a guy like Baker and then, like you suggested, potentially flip him at the deadline if.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 01:57 PM
The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

Actually that's two "RANDOM" World Series wins in his first five seasons as GM, sunshine. Maybe the Twins can find a lucky GM like that too someday. And if you think the AL East was a cakewalk during his best seasons, I think you're in the minority.

I never hinted at how many there were from what I wrote and I know the R. Sox won two, DUH. Calm down sweetheart, I could do without the derogatory nicknames. I don't see what I've said that's anger provoking at all. You should go ahead and read The Twins Binary article posted today if you want some facts about the playoffs. Like: being a 95 game winner versus an 85 game winner – affords a team almost no advantage in terms of advancing in the playoffs." coming from the .07 correlation of regular season wins to playoff ones. Get into the playoffs and you have just as good a shot as anyone to win the WS. The Blue Jays, Orioles, and Rays also had some of their worst seasons during the early 2000s and they had no where near the payroll as the Red Sox.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-13-2012, 02:02 PM
It's Epstein not Einstein, and don't forget the bottomless pit of cash factor.

So payroll guarantees not only regular season wins but playoff success? Good to know; seems I've read a bunch on this site and elsewhere that was wrong about those things.

Generally, the more money spent on something, the better it is. It may not always be true if the cheap end of totem pole spent the money more wisely. If I go to the store and want to buy a camera. A $199 one would have more capabilities than a $79 one would; therefore, it would be better. Same holds true for baseball. I pay a player more money because he will do a better job. Common sense.

And where is the "guarantee" in twinsnorth49's quote. Seems like you are twisting his words...

There are reasonable posters on TD and then there are unreasonable ones. Guess where you belong?

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 02:18 PM
I never hinted at how many there were from what I wrote and I know the R. Sox won two, DUH. Calm down sweetheart, I could do without the derogatory nicknames. I don't see what I've said that's anger provoking at all.

So you know he won two in five years. And it's still "random", as it pertains to his abilities as GM? Ok. Agree to disagree. And I apologize to you and all the other posters from the bottom of my heart for calling you sunshine.

I've read the Binary thread, and although I always respect John's takes on baseball, I disagreed with him and others in it. 85 wins doesn't get you $#!^, either getting to or winning in the playoffs the past 10 seasons.

Going back to the point of the thread, Epstein certainly has his work cut out for him with the Cubs. But if Cubs ownership is willing to accelerate the process with more payroll for gambles like Baker, Theo may return the Cubs to respectability sooner rather than later.

gunnarthor
11-13-2012, 02:22 PM
The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

Actually that's two "random" World Series wins in his first five seasons as GM, sunshine. Maybe the Twins can find a lucky GM like that too someday. And if you think the AL East was a cakewalk during his best seasons, I think you're in the minority.

Well, from 03-05 the AL East only had two teams with winning records and each year it was NY and Bos. In 06 & 07, Toronto joined them. Boston fell to third in 06 and won it all in 07. After Tampa made the playoffs in 08, Boston only made the playoffs once. Boston spent more money than anyone except NY and had a lot of players associated with PEDs. Epstein tended to get too much credit and too much blame for what happened in Bos. He had resources that let him sign top free agents and create a strong draft/scouting group. He was able to offer arbitration to players going away so he got extra draft picks which gave him some great drafts (05) and not so great (06-07).

I find it comical that people would try and compare the 03-11 Red Sox with the Twins. The Twins had a far harder time making the post season, despite playing the Yankees 12 fewer times a year. Ryan was hamstrung by payroll for both the ML roster but also in the draft. Bad contracts were significant problems that he couldn't outspend. Chicago and Detroit had massive payroll advantages over us.

PseudoSABR
11-13-2012, 02:25 PM
The Cubs must think he'll have some trade value by midseason, otherwise I don't really get it from their end. 5.5 guaranteed is excessive. The lack of option years is troubling. If this is the deal the Twins gave Baker, I'd hoped we'd be pretty upset.

Top Gun
11-13-2012, 02:47 PM
Cubs signed RHP Scott Baker to a one-year, $5.5 million contract.

Patrick Mooney of CSNChicago.com passed along the contract details and adds that Baker could make an additional $1.5 million with incentives. It's a nice buy-low opportunity for Theo Epstein and company, as Baker is coming off Tommy John surgery and has enjoyed success in the past. The 31-year-old right-hander should be ready around the early part of the 2013 season if he can avoid setbacks. He could be an excellent trade chip for the Cubbies if he bounces back.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 02:50 PM
I never hinted at how many there were from what I wrote and I know the R. Sox won two, DUH. Calm down sweetheart, I could do without the derogatory nicknames. I don't see what I've said that's anger provoking at all.

So you know he won two in five years. And it's still "random", as it pertains to his abilities as GM? Ok. Agree to disagree. And I apologize to you and all the other posters from the bottom of my heart for calling you sunshine.

I've read the Binary thread, and although I always respect John's takes on baseball, I disagreed with him and others in it. 85 wins doesn't get you $#!^, either getting to or winning in the playoffs the past 10 seasons.

Going back to the point of the thread, Epstein certainly has his work cut out for him with the Cubs. But if Cubs ownership is willing to accelerate the process with more payroll for gambles like Baker, Theo may return the Cubs to respectability sooner rather than later.

I thought it wasn't about money?

Money doesn't buy championships, granted, but it sure helps to put a competitive team on the field that gives you a pretty good chance. GM's build/buy teams that can make the playoffs, whatever happens after that has very little to do with them or any other single factor.

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 02:55 PM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

I heard talks broke down when Baker got wind of thrylos leaking inside information.

Seriously though, I'm bummed to hear that Baker left and even more bummed to hear that this is the going rate for pitching.

I don't think this is going to be the conventional thing we'll see. One has to think the Cubs overpaid quite a bit to pry him away from the Twins, seeing as how much he liked it here. I really don't mind losing him. He's a huge question mark after TJ and the Twins are not in a position to gamble rotation wise.

i read this as scott baker believes he has a better chance in 2013 to go to the playoffs with the cubs then with the twins, you see a patteren? nathan cuddy,kubel,thome,baker....the home town heros are bailing on this sinking ship.....

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 02:58 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

we can only dream of a front office as good as theo...instead we sit with the 3 stooges....

johnnydakota
11-13-2012, 03:00 PM
There's a reason why the Cubs remain "the Cubs". Good luck to Scott Baker.

Theo Epstein is very likely smarter than anyone we have in our upper management...I have little doubt he'll turn that mess around

He did sign Lackey and Crawford ....

and Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Julio Lugo and Renteria.

look , your each complaining he signed several players...who did the twins sign....if you dont swing you dont hit a home run ....its better to have tried and lost then just sit on your thumbs hoping to recieve a bonus for reducing payroll...

righty8383
11-13-2012, 03:18 PM
But wait. I thought the Twins had already signed him to a three-year deal?

Evidently the Cubs didn't check with thrylos98's source.

I heard talks broke down when Baker got wind of thrylos leaking inside information.

Seriously though, I'm bummed to hear that Baker left and even more bummed to hear that this is the going rate for pitching.

I don't think this is going to be the conventional thing we'll see. One has to think the Cubs overpaid quite a bit to pry him away from the Twins, seeing as how much he liked it here. I really don't mind losing him. He's a huge question mark after TJ and the Twins are not in a position to gamble rotation wise.

i read this as scott baker believes he has a better chance in 2013 to go to the playoffs with the cubs then with the twins, you see a patteren? nathan cuddy,kubel,thome,baker....the home town heros are bailing on this sinking ship.....

sinking?...you mean, sunken

LaBombo
11-13-2012, 03:26 PM
gunnarthor- Come for the Baker signing discussion, stay for the Theo Epstein debate! We're not going to see eye to eye on Epstein, I think. You made some good points, as have others, about payroll and existing talent in Boston. But I still see a guy who GM'ed two World Series wins while still ten years younger or more than most rookie GM's. Pretty exceptional in my book, and I don't even like the Red Sox except when they're beating the Yankees or the Black Sox.

Back to Baker, sorry to see him go, but that seems spendy for such a high risk guy who figures to not even be ready until well into the season. But Epstein is probably getting more payroll to achieve faster results than Ryan will in Minnesota. As far as Baker the pitcher, I hope he can succeed enough in Chicago and elsewhere that he gives Twins fans reason to engage in yet another round of What Might Have Been.

On the other hand, Lohse has done well for himself in StL, and I still don't miss that guy....

dave
11-13-2012, 03:39 PM
in ever assuming that at least one team wouldn't offer Baker gobs of money? The Twins need to start almost from scratch. Tying up more than $1million on a chronically injured pitcher would have been crazy.

beckmt
11-13-2012, 03:44 PM
I do not think Baker signing with the Cubs was about the Twins or winning chances. It was about the money and the ability to market himself next year. Twins may have to move faster and spend more than they want to improve for next year. Other clubs seem to be doing this.

TwinsFanInPhilly
11-13-2012, 03:47 PM
No surprise. And the chorus begins in justification of the twins not signing him. That chorus will be repeated player after player. To sign a legit free agent, you need to overpay.

No surprise you commenting on the other commenters rather than the actual article itself. So predictable. Why don't you tell us if you would have paid more for Baker. Personally, I wouldn't.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 04:02 PM
The only team he was competing with for the successful part of his tenure was the Yankees who won it 9 straight years: 98-06. The rest of the division was really pathetic and easy wins for them. Then there is the random playoff winner/World Series that follows.

Actually that's two "random" World Series wins in his first five seasons as GM, sunshine. Maybe the Twins can find a lucky GM like that too someday. And if you think the AL East was a cakewalk during his best seasons, I think you're in the minority.

Well, from 03-05 the AL East only had two teams with winning records and each year it was NY and Bos. In 06 & 07, Toronto joined them. Boston fell to third in 06 and won it all in 07. After Tampa made the playoffs in 08, Boston only made the playoffs once. Boston spent more money than anyone except NY and had a lot of players associated with PEDs. Epstein tended to get too much credit and too much blame for what happened in Bos. He had resources that let him sign top free agents and create a strong draft/scouting group. He was able to offer arbitration to players going away so he got extra draft picks which gave him some great drafts (05) and not so great (06-07).

I find it comical that people would try and compare the 03-11 Red Sox with the Twins. The Twins had a far harder time making the post season, despite playing the Yankees 12 fewer times a year. Ryan was hamstrung by payroll for both the ML roster but also in the draft. Bad contracts were significant problems that he couldn't outspend. Chicago and Detroit had massive payroll advantages over us.

So what you're saying is, you think we have people in our front office smarter than Epstein?

RodneyKline
11-13-2012, 04:06 PM
I think it was a huge mistake for this team to release Nathan, Liriano and now Baker. We got virtually nothing for these guys. Wouldn't it make sense to sign them to three year contracts instead of declining their option (or trading Liriano at his lowest trade value point). Then trade them if you don't think they are showing enough value to deserve what you are paying them. At least we either get value out of them or trade for value. We are DESPERATE for pitching and Ryan is too cheap to get front line starters. We now need 1, 2, 4 & 5 starters (assuming Diamond is a 3). Big mistake letting these three go in my opinion. Ryan will never sign or trade for 4 starters. Baker could come back as a #2 but count on him as #4 or #5 for this year, Liriano could be a #4 or 5 and Nathan could be the closer if he wasn't already gone to TX. Perkins is a good set up guy but he is not a closer. Too many home runs in critical situations. Ryan could then get a #1 and a #2 starter and he is done. Bottom line: TR needs to step up and sign Greinke to a long term deal. Over pay for him but tell every other free agent player that the Twins are serious about building a starting rotation that can win plus a team that could go worst to first. I am tired of hearing about the payroll. We built them the stadium and their part of the deal is to build a winner. It was not to build the best team on a budget, it is the best team period. The Pohlad's have plenty of money and I have never heard them say (in public anyway) that there is a limit on what Ryan can spend. He puts that on himself.

PseudoSABR
11-13-2012, 04:10 PM
i read this as scott baker believes he has a better chance in 2013 to go to the playoffs with the cubs then with the twins, you see a patteren? nathan cuddy,kubel,thome,baker....the home town heros are bailing on this sinking ship.....It's no surprise that you would "read" Baker not signing with the Twins as part of the narrative you continue to promote: that Twins are awful. No one's surprised or impressed with your "reading." Baker probably went after the money. If he was concerned about winning, he'd have signed somewhere other than with the Cubs. Obviously.

nokomismod
11-13-2012, 04:13 PM
I would have been happy to have 'Shake n Bake' back, but not at that price. Bill Smith might have spent $5-6 million to bring back Baker, but I think we are seeing a return to the Shrewdinator (aka Terry Ryan), who will pass on bad deals in favor of more club friendly ones. If we have another off season like last one, only this time with the focus on starting pitching, we will be a pretty decent ball club.

Seth Stohs
11-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Nice article by Phil Mackey about the Baker signing/loss: http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_Baker_wanted_deal_before_Oct_but_Twins_like ly_wise_to_pass111312

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 04:19 PM
First, let me say, I didn't care if Baker signed with us or not...not one bit.

Having said that, we need starters...we need three good-great starters....they cost money/good players (or both). Ryan isn't gonna 'break the bank' for pitching. So, we're looking at dumpster diving free agent SPs (as is the norm or us), or couple trades...

...cause he's not gonna spend big, he's just not.

nicksaviking
11-13-2012, 04:21 PM
I would have been happy to have 'Shake n Bake' back, but not at that price. Bill Smith might have spent $5-6 million to bring back Baker, but I think we are seeing a return to the Shrewdinator (aka Terry Ryan), who will pass on bad deals in favor of more club friendly ones. If we have another off season like last one, only this time with the focus on starting pitching, we will be a pretty decent ball club.

I would hope that is always his intention, however the problem arises when the other 29 teams also get pitcher fever and there are no more team friendly deals for useful free agent starters.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 04:27 PM
I had previously posted I would sign Baker to a two year, incentive laden deal. Btw, fair criticism of my post, but it was not aimed at the posters here, that is the consensus I read or heard elsewhere also, but it did come across wrong. Apologies.

I think the Cubs overpaid, but I also believe the only way to sign the better players is to overpay. Baseball owners know this, so if they will not do that, why buy a team? Most every free agent that is likely to be good will be overpaid.

Riverbrian
11-13-2012, 04:36 PM
I had previously posted I would sign Baker to a two year, incentive laden deal. Btw, fair criticism of my post, but it was not aimed at the posters here, that is the consensus I read or heard elsewhere also, but it did come across wrong. Apologies.

I think the Cubs overpaid, but I also believe the only way to sign the better players is to overpay. Baseball owners know this, so if they will not do that, why buy a team? Most every free agent that is likely to be good will be overpaid.

I agree with this... Overpay on someone else is my thinking?

beckmt
11-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Twins will have to overpay to get pitching. Shawn Marcum, Anibel Sanchez, and others are better bets. Do not think Sanchez will want to come here, but there are other options, issue is you either have to make trades or sign the other options. Clubs do not seem to be waiting for the market to shake out or see who will not be tendered a contract. I believe the Twins have to sign(and probably overpay) a decent pitcher to come here or the market will pass the Twins by as being illrelevent. Then they will really have to overpay to get a player or pitcher to come here. Is this uncomfortable, yes, but doing nothing is not an option if TR wants to fill seats next year. Trading Span and others for pitching prospects may be the better way to go, but that might be one step back before moving forward. That could cripple the Twins payroll for years after 2014 and the hype of the All Star Game has worn off. Best line is to sign some pitchers and then flip them at the deadline for prospects if it does not work out. Playroll may have to go back to about $100 million for this to work, but I now feel the numbers in the Twins Handbook may be low for pitchers, I hope not, but that is the way it is trending. In this case you may have to spend money to make money.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 04:55 PM
I'm optimistic for 2014, 2015 time frame with the young guys coming up...

I'm just not sold on the Twins (meaning ownership, the FO and so on) being interested in putting a true WS contending team together. For the last decade and change, all they've ever seemed interested in is building a team to be competitive within the division....and the couple seasons where they were truly very good (2006 and 2010) were followed up with offseasons not worked to put us over the the hump, but worked to downgrade us because, hey, we were SO good, we can afford to downgrade some while still being competitive in the division.


Didn't work either time...

iastfan112
11-13-2012, 04:55 PM
i read this as scott baker believes he has a better chance in 2013 to go to the playoffs with the cubs then with the twins, you see a patteren? nathan cuddy,kubel,thome,baker....the home town heros are bailing on this sinking ship.....



we can only dream of a front office as good as theo...instead we sit with the 3 stooges....



look , your each complaining he signed several players...who did the twins sign....if you dont swing you dont hit a home run ....its better to have tried and lost then just sit on your thumbs hoping to recieve a bonus for reducing payroll...

Gaze at the power of the multi-quote, a useful too that allows you to respond to multiple points without spamming the board with multiple posts on your part.

PS- People might take you more seriously if you at least attempted to follow conventions of the English language. Things such as capitalization, punctuation and grammar count, even on the web.

jharaldson
11-13-2012, 04:56 PM
The article today from Mackey, who is usually very good, was just ridiculous. Here is his evaluation from today:

"Baker will be guaranteed $5.5 million with a chance to earn an extra $1.5 million in performance incentives. ...
Passing on Baker was probably the right decision for the Twins"

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_Baker_wanted_deal_before_Oct_but_Twins_like ly_wise_to_pass111312

Here is his recommendation from his OWN plan to fix the Twins just 2 weeks ago:

"Bring back Scott Baker on an incentive-laden deal. Baker ... perhaps $3-4 million base with an extra $4 million in incentives."

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/How_to_fix_the_Twins_Part_3_Could_Braves_Rays_be_g ood_trade_fits103112

P-Mac says it is a great idea to sign him to a minimum $4 million, maximum $8 million contract but suddenly it is a bad idea to sign him to a minimum $5.5 million, maximum $7 million contract? This is effectively the same contract with a little more risk on the downside and a little more return on the upside.

Next P-Mac said the following:

"Baker's departure should not come as much of a shock."

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Mackey_Baker_wanted_deal_before_Oct_but_Twins_like ly_wise_to_pass11

Baker said in September he would like to be back. Ryan said in October they would like ot have him back. After they declined his option they still said they wanted him back. P-Mac and virtually every offseason blueprint I have seen this in the past month have pretty much assumed a 1 year deal with incentives. To say that Baker not being on this team in 2013 is not a shock is just not a credible statement.

twinscowboysbulls
11-13-2012, 05:29 PM
Honest question, is Terry Ryan doing anything right now to improve this team? My impression is that he is just scanning the waiver wire looking for the next marque player. I get it folks, it's early in the offseason, but let's face the facts Terry Ryan, we have lost 90+ games 2 straight years now, MAKE SOME FRICKIN WAVES already.

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 05:30 PM
Well hopefully this ends the insane speculation that you can go out and sign 3 good starters in the offseason to magically become a contender.

ThePuck
11-13-2012, 05:38 PM
Well hopefully this ends the insane speculation that you can go out and sign 3 good starters in the offseason to magically become a contender.

while doing it on the cheap as well...

Rick Blaine
11-13-2012, 05:46 PM
i read this as scott baker believes he has a better chance in 2013 to go to the playoffs with the cubs then with the twins, you see a patteren? nathan cuddy,kubel,thome,baker....the home town heros are bailing on this sinking ship.....It's no surprise that you would "read" Baker not signing with the Twins as part of the narrative you continue to promote: that Twins are awful. No one's surprised or impressed with your "reading." Baker probably went after the money. If he was concerned about winning, he'd have signed somewhere other than with the Cubs. Obviously.

You never know---Maybe the Cubs will rise from the dust! I think Cuddyer wanted to win and left the Twins to do that. Look how well that worked out for him! It's almost always about the money.

Kwak
11-13-2012, 06:10 PM
He spent a lot of money and had a great manager. Not saying he didn't do a good job, but he isn't some sort of wizard. I've held on to my doubts about him turning the Cubs around.

Rubbish. He competed in a division where you win 95 games and cross your fingers for a wildcard berth, and won his second World Series at age 33.


I don't care how good he is. It's still the Cubs. You pretty much have to be a wizard to make that team decent

Weren't the Cubs within 1 out (the famous foul popfly) of making it to the WS in 2003? A good deal closer than the Twins have been to the WS during Ryan's tenure.

diehardtwinsfan
11-13-2012, 06:38 PM
This tells me that Theo is willing to gamble a million or so more for a draft pick. I'm surprised Baker got 5.5. I figured it would be closer to 3, maybe 4 + incentives. Theo has the ability to trade Baker if he's really strong come the deadline or he can give him a QO which will get turned down if Baker is anything like his old self come August/September. It isn't a bad move.

Kwak
11-13-2012, 06:57 PM
I would have liked for Baker to re-sign with the Twins, but this a business for both parties--I wish him well. I am forming the opinion that the FO underestimated the difficulty/expense of three starting pitchers. The emergence of a "new" LA Dodgers only bodes to drive player salaries even higher in the near future. I fear the Twins will have to re-examine their goal of three new SPs and spend their entire (for the three) on one new SP just to ensure that somebody new (and decent) signs for 2013. Others have posted about trades, especially established ML Twins for MiL prospect(s), and Yes, I must agree with them. I fully expect 2013 season to be a rough one as the Twins will likely only be able to incrementally improve through acquisitions.

PseudoSABR
11-13-2012, 07:13 PM
Well hopefully this ends the insane speculation that you can go out and sign 3 good starters in the offseason to magically become a contender.Well, if that insanity included Baker as one of the "good" three starters....

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 07:31 PM
Well, if that insanity included Baker as one of the "good" three starters....

Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.

glunn
11-13-2012, 07:48 PM
I'm optimistic for 2014, 2015 time frame with the young guys coming up...

I'm just not sold on the Twins (meaning ownership, the FO and so on) being interested in putting a true WS contending team together. For the last decade and change, all they've ever seemed interested in is building a team to be competitive within the division....and the couple seasons where they were truly very good (2006 and 2010) were followed up with offseasons not worked to put us over the the hump, but worked to downgrade us because, hey, we were SO good, we can afford to downgrade some while still being competitive in the division.


Didn't work either time...

I agree with this, except I think that it may take until 2016 for enough young pitchers to make it through the system to allow the Twins to compete. I suspect that the Twins will continue to shop the bargain bin of free agents and will need to get very lucky to contend anytime soon.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Well, if that insanity included Baker as one of the "good" three starters....

Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.

I don't remember anybody saying they were going to solve the pitching woes solely through free agency. Plenty, including Ryan himself have said they will explore every option with trades obviously being their next best option.

I'll agree it's going to be a stretch but losing Baker is hardly cause for excessive hand wringing, not to mention the ridiculous condescation.

gunnarthor
11-13-2012, 07:56 PM
So what you're saying is, you think we have people in our front office smarter than Epstein?

What I'm saying is that, given the same resources (and blind eye to PEDs), I think Ryan would have done just as well in Boston.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 08:03 PM
So what you're saying is, you think we have people in our front office smarter than Epstein?

What I'm saying is that, given the same resources (and blind eye to PEDs), I think Ryan would have done just as well in Boston.
..................http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/049.gif

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 08:06 PM
Um, don't be so sanctimonious on PEDs, this organization has had guys suspended, and when TK was told about them being found in the locker room he brushed it under the table, if I recall the story correctly.

joeboo_22
11-13-2012, 08:19 PM
Every organization was blind to PED's in the 90's and early 00's so I don't want to hear that argument on why A organization isn't as good as B organization.

Money doesn't help win championships but it sure helps with preventing prolonged bad years. If you have the budget you can have 1-2-3 bad drafts, 1-2-3 bad signings, 1-2-3 bad injuries. If you have money those hurt, if you don't they hurt more and for a longer period.

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 08:34 PM
I don't remember anybody saying they were going to solve the pitching woes solely through free agency. Plenty, including Ryan himself have said they will explore every option with trades obviously being their next best option.

I'll agree it's going to be a stretch but losing Baker is hardly cause for excessive hand wringing, not to mention the ridiculous condescation.

This forum is littered with predictions of bringing in Marcum and Jackson. Or signing Dempster "cheap". Nothing comes cheap in FA. Baker got about what you'd expect - 20-30% more than was sane and deserved. Again, welcome to FA.

jorgenswest
11-13-2012, 08:45 PM
To earn the contract, Baker needs to produce 1 WAR. In fact according to Parker's recent article, he may not even need to perform that well. I think it is reasonable to think that Baker could produce 2 WAR next season and be worth over 10 million.

It is quite possible the Twins will regret not picking up that option. The Twins should have expected that he would sign elsewhere if they did not pick up the option. It will be interesting to see of the 9 million we spend this winter on pitching out performs Baker.

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 09:02 PM
It will be interesting to see of the 9 million we spend this winter on pitching out performs Baker.

It will be interesting to see if the Twins actually spend 9 million on pitching this winter, period.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't remember anybody saying they were going to solve the pitching woes solely through free agency. Plenty, including Ryan himself have said they will explore every option with trades obviously being their next best option.

I'll agree it's going to be a stretch but losing Baker is hardly cause for excessive hand wringing, not to mention the ridiculous condescation.

This forum is littered with predictions of bringing in Marcum and Jackson. Or signing Dempster "cheap". Nothing comes cheap in FA. Baker got about what you'd expect - 20-30% more than was sane and deserved. Again, welcome to FA.

I didn't say it wasn't littered with those type of predictions and I didn't say anything came cheap. Again, it's not the only avenue any rational person expects to take to solve the pitching woes and there have been many discussions on this forum along those lines.

I don't expect the Twins to spend big all of a sudden either but I don't see how not paying Baker 5+ is reason to hang the closed sign on the door just yet.

mike wants wins
11-13-2012, 09:22 PM
It will be interesting to see of the 9 million we spend this winter on pitching out performs Baker.

It will be interesting to see if the Twins actually spend 9 million on pitching this winter, period.

Ouch.

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 09:27 PM
I don't expect the Twins to spend big all of a sudden either but I don't see how not paying Baker 5+ is reason to hang the closed sign on the door just yet.

I never said close the door on getting anyone. I said close the door on thinking 20M was going to land you 3 pitchers. 5M for Baker isn't that awful and shouldn't have been that shocking. He's a pitcher who has been successful. Quite a bit more successful than most of this fanbase has appreciated. Injury or not that has value.

You don't have to take the remark personally, not sure why you feel the need to do so, but the fact is people seem to think that the payroll flexibility the Twins have (if they were to spend all that they are assumed to have) would somehow land them as many as 2 of the top 5-7 pitchers on the market. That was ridiculous then and it should be glaringly obvious how ridiculous it was now.

Anorthagen
11-13-2012, 09:38 PM
Obviously theo epistein is working his magic by signing baker, but I think he that he will simply be a trade target by the end of the
trading deadline. Either that or it will be a bust sense baker is now pitching in the NL. But no matter how you look at it he is still going to be a cub for one year. Instead of a twin.

twinsnorth49
11-13-2012, 09:40 PM
I don't expect the Twins to spend big all of a sudden either but I don't see how not paying Baker 5+ is reason to hang the closed sign on the door just yet.

I never said close the door on getting anyone. I said close the door on thinking 20M was going to land you 3 pitchers. 5M for Baker isn't that awful and shouldn't have been that shocking. He's a pitcher who has been successful. Quite a bit more successful than most of this fanbase has appreciated. Injury or not that has value.

You don't have to take the remark personally, not sure why you feel the need to do so, but the fact is people seem to think that the payroll flexibility the Twins have (if they were to spend all that they are assumed to have) would somehow land them as many as 2 of the top 5-7 pitchers on the market. That was ridiculous then and it should be glaringly obvious how ridiculous it was now.

I understand your points and I agree with you, I just think that most people here were realistic about which free agents we could afford, sure a few out there posters were claiming 2 of the top 7 was realistic but they were the minority.

I think the surprise with Baker is just based in his injury history , not that mediocre pitchers don't get that kind of dough.

I don't take anything in this board personally, sorry if I sound that way.

Riverbrian
11-13-2012, 09:49 PM
I'd be happy if they got one guy that they really really like in FA. If it takes 20 million so be it... Just one guy... Make him good... Baker for 5 is not that guy in my opinion.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-13-2012, 09:51 PM
Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 09:57 PM
I understand your points and I agree with you, I just think that most people here were realistic about which free agents we could afford, sure a few out there posters were claiming 2 of the top 7 was realistic but they were the minority.

I think the surprise with Baker is just based in his injury history , not that mediocre pitchers don't get that kind of dough.

I don't take anything in this board personally, sorry if I sound that way.

The rampant offseason speculation and plans indicate otherwise. I see a Shields-Johnson-Baker, Marcum-Baker-S. Drew-M.Cabrera, Haren-Marcum-Baker-Bedard, Marcum-Bedard-Baker-Youk. And I haven't even finished the first page of the blueprints. And I haven't even cited your average "Hey we should get this guy because he doesn't suck" series of threads.

Baker has been better than mediocre. When healthy he's been a bonafide #2 pitcher. 5M isn't a bad risk on a guy like that if giving him guaranteed cash gives your club a good chance to keep him around long-term.

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 10:06 PM
I understand your points and I agree with you, I just think that most people here were realistic about which free agents we could afford, sure a few out there posters were claiming 2 of the top 7 was realistic but they were the minority.



Why is it unrealistic to think the Twins could sign 2 of the top 7 FA starting pitchers on the market?

AFAIK, there are no rules against it.

Dilligaf69
11-13-2012, 10:08 PM
$5.5M for one-year, plus incentives for a guy who had TJ in April? And no option year?

You're welcome to him Theo. Congrats to Scotty's agent. (My guess is you'll be hearing from Colby Lewis shortly.)

Agree! If you want that kind of money coming off TJ surgery then you have to give the team an option if things go well, plus I have to think the Twins offer was significantly less. Odd for a rebuilding Cubs team to pay that kind of money for maybe a half season...

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-13-2012, 10:08 PM
I don't expect the Twins to spend big all of a sudden either but I don't see how not paying Baker 5+ is reason to hang the closed sign on the door just yet.

I never said close the door on getting anyone. I said close the door on thinking 20M was going to land you 3 pitchers. 5M for Baker isn't that awful and shouldn't have been that shocking. He's a pitcher who has been successful. Quite a bit more successful than most of this fanbase has appreciated. Injury or not that has value.

You don't have to take the remark personally, not sure why you feel the need to do so, but the fact is people seem to think that the payroll flexibility the Twins have (if they were to spend all that they are assumed to have) would somehow land them as many as 2 of the top 5-7 pitchers on the market. That was ridiculous then and it should be glaringly obvious how ridiculous it was now.

Yeah, 5 M is not a bad contract at all for a guy like Baker.

TheLeviathan
11-13-2012, 10:11 PM
Why is it unrealistic to think the Twins could sign 2 of the top 7 FA starting pitchers on the market?

AFAIK, there are no rules against it.

Because your belief in what the Twins can and should spend and what they likely and will spend is the difference between realistic and wishful thinking.

Physics Guy
11-13-2012, 10:18 PM
Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.

I know this will probably just make me your next target, but Dave you really need to get over it. Enough with the venom already towards Thrylos. You obviously have a grudge against him, but your ranting doesn't make the forum any better either. Your post in the other thread has to be one of the more mean-spirited ones I've read. Thrylos obviously was wrong and you will probably have the good fortune of not having to read his posts for awhile as he licks his wounds. I suggest that you do what I do when I come across messages from certain posters, just move on by and don't waste your time reading them.

OldManWinter
11-13-2012, 10:30 PM
I do not lament losing something we have not had for awhile and we have not anything from Baker for a long, lo.g time. So, to me it is no loss at all. We can not afford to tie up big money with such a risk. Cubs got what they want, Baker got what he wants, and Twins got what they want ... they still have the $$$ to invest more wisely.

Keep Nathan? He did not want to stay. Keep Lariano? He simply was not consistent. It would have been nice to move him at high value, alas his irregular performance would not allow that.

want to trade Span and Morneau, guys who claim they want to be Twins and continue to pay their dues. Yet we expect others like Cuddy, Nathan, and others to stay here. We ought not have a double standard either. How can we expect guyx like Span and

OldManWinter
11-13-2012, 10:38 PM
Sorry About above errors. I gave up editing out obvious mistakes and redundant and incomplete thoughts.

Twins Twerp
11-13-2012, 10:38 PM
Over/under 8 pages before we lock this thread?

Most of the anger towards thyros is obviously also with baker. I thought tthe post was dumb but i am more pissed it didnt come true. Now we have to go out and find another pitcher via free agency or trade. Y didnt we sign him,? I would have given him 6 mil plus incentives...this winter has barely begun i know, i just hope this isnt a sign of wbat is to come

ScottyB
11-13-2012, 11:22 PM
To dakota:

PS- People might take you more seriously if you at least attempted to follow conventions of the english language. Things such as capitalization, punctuation and grammar count, even on the web.

Amen

beckmt
11-13-2012, 11:44 PM
I do not lament losing something we have not had for awhile and we have not anything from Baker for a long, lo.g time. So, to me it is no loss at all. We can not afford to tie up big money with such a risk. Cubs got what they want, Baker got what he wants, and Twins got what they want ... they still have the $$$ to invest more wisely.

Keep Nathan? He did not want to stay. Keep Lariano? He simply was not consistent. It would have been nice to move him at high value, alas his irregular performance would not allow that.

want to trade Span and Morneau, guys who claim they want to be Twins and continue to pay their dues. Yet we expect others like Cuddy, Nathan, and others to stay here. We ought not have a double standard either. How can we expect guyx like Span and
This is the issue with all small and mid market teams. If Morneau wants to stay let him sign a reasonable extension in the near future so the Twins have cost certainty with him. I hate to trade Span, but he is in the only area the Twins have excess talent, so you have to give value to get value.
It looks like the Twins will only have money for 1 FA pitcher at this market price. I also feel that giving a pitcher more than 4 years is a losing strategy unless he is and obvious ace(and the Twins seem not to have the money to sign these). I still hope they sign Marcum at what is looking like about 3 for $30 mil and trade for 2 - 3 other starters. Diffilcult yes,impossible no.

Kobs
11-14-2012, 12:01 AM
All this over a guy coming back from two major elbow ligament repairs?

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 12:18 AM
Well, if that insanity included Baker as one of the "good" three starters....

Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.Oh, I got the point. But overpaying for damaged goods probably wouldn't be part of any good plan; so while I agree with you generally, I'm not sure the Baker signing is indicative of your point. The Twins could spend money, even overpay, for quality pitching. Will they? Probably not.

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 12:19 AM
All this over a guy coming back from two major elbow ligament repairs?
It's the internet. You're not really surprised.

glunn
11-14-2012, 01:28 AM
Here (http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2012/11/13/no-mystery-as-to-why-chicago-cubs-signed-scott-baker/) is an interesting article that speculates that the main reason for the Cubs to acquire Baker is to use him as trade bait, assuming that he pitches well. On reflection, this seems like a pretty good strategy.

kab21
11-14-2012, 08:48 AM
My sticking point on Baker's deal isn't the money but rather that it doesn't include any team options. 5.5M for one year is not a big deal for a potentially above average pitcher. I don't expect him to be great this season but I would like to put pieces in place for fixing the rotation for 2014/2015. W/O options then he's gone (or too expensive) if he pitches well.

Nick Nelson
11-14-2012, 10:55 AM
Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.
Because letting people continue to pile on and viciously insult the guy is somehow conducive to quality discourse? How old are you? Grow up.

Thrylos was wrong, as most of us expected to begin with. That has been established and nobody is making excuses for him. The only thing we're encouraging by locking up that thread is civility.

Rosterman
11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
I see Baker talking to the Twins and the Twins saying something like "$3.5 million with guarantees according to performance for maybe $1.5 million and a $250 buyout option on a $5 million contract for 2014." Like Nathan, take this as the Twins best offer and if someone offers more, grab it. Not a bad offer for Baker. If he does come out of the gate strong, the Cubbies can trade him, too...unless he breaks down like Garza. If he does bad.....well, you could've signed Jason Marquis.

gunnarthor
11-14-2012, 11:31 AM
Um, don't be so sanctimonious on PEDs, this organization has had guys suspended, and when TK was told about them being found in the locker room he brushed it under the table, if I recall the story correctly.

They were found in the visitors locker room. Seattle, IIRC.

gunnarthor
11-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Every organization was blind to PED's in the 90's and early 00's so I don't want to hear that argument on why A organization isn't as good as B organization.

Organizations may have been blind but some certainly benefited from it more than others. I don't mind steroid use in the NFL b/c I'm pretty confident the Viking players are juicing just as much as the Patriots and Giants players are. But steroid use in baseball wasn't uniform, some teams benefited more than others, either by creating a culture that let their players take steroids or by signing free agent roiders to long term contracts.

Look at the 02-04 Twins. We got bounced twice by the Yanks in those seasons. Our best players were probably Santana, AJ, Dougie Baseball, Radke and Hunter. The Yankees best players were Giambi, Clemens, Pettitte, ARod, Sheffield. One list is a bit different than the other. If you want to ignore the benefit of PEDs in baseball, fine, then that wouldn't alter my original post, Ryan would succeed just fine with Boston's resources.

But if you think PEDs did impact the game then you'd have to calculate into that how much a front office would be willing to accept PED users. Going back to Theo for a moment, the Mitchell report indicated that his baseball people thought Eric Gagne had lost his stuff b/c he wasn't on PEDs anymore. Some emails suggested that Gagne wasn't worth trading for. Theo did anyway, which suggests that the Red Sox FO 1) didn't think PEDs impacted baseball 2) Thought Gagne could succeed without PEDs despite what their own scouts suggested or 3) thought he'd start using PEDs again.

Nick Nelson
11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
Missed the point bud. Most of this thread is saying "I can't believe they paid him that!" Welcome to free agency. Hence why the idea of solving this team's pitching woes there was ridiculous from the start.
You're reaching by trying to use this example as proof of anything. Baker is the FIRST pitcher to sign a contract with another team this offseason; it stands to reason he'll get more than people expected because clearly the Cubs were motivated buyers and they wanted to swoop him away from the Twins. That doesn't tell us anything about how the rest of the FA market is going to shake out. There's still a very good chance that many pitchers will end up going for less than expected because there are a lot of guys looking for work and only so much money to go around.

Also, these "people" that believed the Twins were going to sign multiple pitchers from the top tier of the market... who are they? Who exactly are you trying to rebuke? Certainly not the majority.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-14-2012, 01:24 PM
Hey Rocketpig, pretty weak shutting down the other thread, ever since the Twinsdaily transition you seem to have become a bit of a company man. No offense, but you protecting that douche and encouraging that garbage he spews makes this forum worse.
Because letting people continue to pile on and viciously insult the guy is somehow conducive to quality discourse? How old are you? Grow up.

Thrylos was wrong, as most of us expected to begin with. That has been established and nobody is making excuses for him. The only thing we're encouraging by locking up that thread is civility.
It would have let up after 24-48 hours and would thus keep him from posting stupid nonsense like that in the future. Personally I think you should ban him, I got a ban after posting a "joke" Liriano post that was clearly a joke, yet you keep a pathological liar around these parts? It weakens the community as a whole to let that crap run wild.

Also, you know how old I am Nick.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 01:41 PM
Leaving it open wasn't going to accomplish anything other than letting more people pile on the guy. As it stands, the point was made. Thrylos will have to be VERY careful with his next prediction no matter if that thread stayed open or whether it was closed. Everyone here will remember how this "done deal" went down and respond accordingly next time around. Leaving the thread open only encouraged people to start getting nasty and insulting him. It brings nothing new or interesting to the discussion.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 03:59 PM
Also, these "people" that believed the Twins were going to sign multiple pitchers from the top tier of the market... who are they? Who exactly are you trying to rebuke? Certainly not the majority.

You mean like the list I posted just a few replies later?

I find it amusing that people are still trying to paint this as a huge overpayment. He got what almost every FA pitcher gets in the first few months of FA - more money than they deserve. Why is this shocking to anyone? The guys that don't get paid are the position players like Doumit and Willingham, most starting pitchers do not fall into that category. So, yes, it should have been expected and it makes all of the posts about how many guys we were going to land with the money we had look ridiculous. And before you half-cock your snippy response again, check the offseason blueprints as a starter.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 04:02 PM
Oh, I got the point. But overpaying for damaged goods probably wouldn't be part of any good plan; so while I agree with you generally, I'm not sure the Baker signing is indicative of your point. The Twins could spend money, even overpay, for quality pitching. Will they? Probably not.

They didn't give him 10M. This massive overpayment that everyone is hyperventilating about is nonsense. It's a slight overpayment - EXACTLY what happens in FA! Plus, the other favorites around here - Josh Johnson, Shaun Marcum, Erik Bedard - are in the same boat! None of the pitchers we are likely to sign are going to fall outside of the category of "overpaid" and "damaged goods". So the point still very much stands. This shouldn't be surprising and this should be sobering to those that filled out their offseason blueprints full of 2-3 of these guys. We almost always understate the going rate of starting pitching in the offseason. Most of the predictions around here forgot that and look ridiculous, hopefully this was a reminder of that. Not that it will matter next year, many will do the same thing again.

Jim Crikket
11-14-2012, 04:18 PM
Since most FAs sign with the team that offers the most money, in pretty much every case that means that every other team thinks the team that signed the guy "overpaid" and the only way to avoid doing so is to pick over the bones of the leftovers in February. So, sure, Baker got "overpaid" according to the Twins' views and those of every other team besides the Cubs. It's fine that the Twins didn't re-sign him if, in fact, they go on to fill out their rotation with better pitchers. But I don't see them doing that if they're going to refuse to ever "overpay" because if avoiding overpaying is your priority, you won't sign anyone with any talent. And if it turns out that they still have a gaping hole in the middle of their rotation all because they didn't want to overpay Baker or because he wouldn't give them a team-friendly 2014 option, that would just prove to me that Terry Ryan's doing nothing but blowing smoke up our collective butts about how serious he is about improving the rotation.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 05:33 PM
Since most FAs sign with the team that offers the most money, in pretty much every case that means that every other team thinks the team that signed the guy "overpaid" and the only way to avoid doing so is to pick over the bones of the leftovers in February. So, sure, Baker got "overpaid" according to the Twins' views and those of every other team besides the Cubs. It's fine that the Twins didn't re-sign him if, in fact, they go on to fill out their rotation with better pitchers. But I don't see them doing that if they're going to refuse to ever "overpay" because if avoiding overpaying is your priority, you won't sign anyone with any talent. And if it turns out that they still have a gaping hole in the middle of their rotation all because they didn't want to overpay Baker or because he wouldn't give them a team-friendly 2014 option, that would just prove to me that Terry Ryan's doing nothing but blowing smoke up our collective butts about how serious he is about improving the rotation.

Nice Post Jim... I Agree completely... I'm hoping that TR will be willing to overpay for someone else. I'm ok with it not being Baker. Jeez... The Off Season Moves slow when you are waiting for something positive.

Nick Nelson
11-14-2012, 06:17 PM
And before you half-cock your snippy response again, check the offseason blueprints as a starter.
You seem confused. The blueprints are perspectives on what the Twins should do, not predictions of what they will do. Yes, a lot of people believe the Twins should take advantage of this robust pitching market and spend some money to improve on their extraordinary weakness in that department.

I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 06:43 PM
I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

So, basically you're saying the forum has been without substantive analysis for the last month or more and should be seen as nothing more than a series of 6 year old-esque Santa wishlists that shouldn't be taken seriously?

In that case, we're in total agreement - thank you for making my initial point about how ridiculous those hopes were.

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 08:14 PM
I don't think many folks around here have ridiculous illusions about what pitchers are going to sign for this winter. The fact that Baker got a couple extra million more than we expected from a team that clearly valued him highly doesn't really have any bearing on what guys like Jackson, Marcum and Dempster will get. If the Twins are serious about keeping payroll steady, they could afford a guy like that and then some, but of course what they will do is another story. Again, I think you're mixing up people's wishes with their expectations.

So, basically you're saying the forum has been without substantive analysis for the last month or more and should be seen as nothing more than a series of 6 year old-esque Santa wishlists that shouldn't be taken seriously?

In that case, we're in total agreement - thank you for making my initial point about how ridiculous those hopes were.This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 08:19 PM
This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

Absolutely intentional. It takes a lot of smug to pass Nick.

That said, goes back to my point - all the predictions were ridiculous wishlists - not realistic.

Just to recap: I suggest the offseason "rebuild to contend" posts were ridiculous and insane because they were unrealistic and wishful, get called out for being too harsh and that most people didn't think that, post just a small sample of a much richer pile of evidence to prove that plenty of people did, then get told all of those things were unrealistic and wishful. Right where I started.

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 08:34 PM
This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

snepp
11-14-2012, 08:37 PM
Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

What would you say its DORP is?

USAFChief
11-14-2012, 08:45 PM
Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

What would you say its DORP is?

fDORP or bDORP?

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 09:08 PM
Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

What would you say its DORP is?

fDORP or bDORP?Well done, guys.

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 09:09 PM
This post is excessively douchey, even for you.

Absolutely intentional. It takes a lot of smug to pass Nick.

That said, goes back to my point - all the predictions were ridiculous wishlists - not realistic.

Just to recap: I suggest the offseason "rebuild to contend" posts were ridiculous and insane because they were unrealistic and wishful, get called out for being too harsh and that most people didn't think that, post just a small sample of a much richer pile of evidence to prove that plenty of people did, then get told all of those things were unrealistic and wishful. Right where I started.I'd say wishful, but not unrealistic. It's certainly within the realm of possibility for the Twins to spend money on FA and even make some cost-effective signings. Wishful, sure.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 09:15 PM
I'd say wishful, but not unrealistic. It's certainly within the realm of possibility for the Twins to spend money on FA and even make some cost-effective signings. Wishful, sure.

By all means cite some examples of when one team has gone out and signed 2-3 of the top 7-10 FA starters in one offseason. Then we'll talk realistic. I don't doubt that the Twins "could" do this - I never said "impossible". I said insane and ridiculous because it was unrealistic. Again, you seem to have missed the point by imprinting your own interpretation. Which then got handed off to Nick to do the same errant interpretation.

PseudoSABR
11-14-2012, 09:36 PM
I'd say wishful, but not unrealistic. It's certainly within the realm of possibility for the Twins to spend money on FA and even make some cost-effective signings. Wishful, sure.

By all means cite some examples of when one team has gone out and signed 2-3 of the top 7-10 FA starters in one offseason. Then we'll talk realistic. I don't doubt that the Twins "could" do this - I never said "impossible". I said insane and ridiculous because it was unrealistic. Again, you seem to have missed the point by imprinting your own interpretation. Which then got handed off to Nick to do the same errant interpretation.Look, you're placing ridiculous conditions on these supposed unrealistic blueprints. You're just strawmanning. The Twins realistically could acquire three competent starters in any number of ways. They can trade, resign, and yes use FA; and they might find great value in 10-15 of SPers that other teams don't see.

No one, I mean no one, suggested that the Twins were going to sign three of the top seven free agent starters. No one said that. So just quit it.

TheLeviathan
11-14-2012, 09:44 PM
You're just strawmanning. The Twins realistically could acquire three competent starters in any number of ways. They can trade, resign, and yes use FA; and they might find great value in 10-15 of SPers that other teams don't see.

You're equivocating. "Possible" does not equal "realistic". People are not suggesting just competent - you can go back and review my post as well if you'd like or check out the blueprints thread yourself. It was ridiculous to think it realistic to do what no team has done before. If you have precedent, by all means post it. If you don't - you are only suggesting what is literally not impossible. You aren't suggesting anything realistic.

Brock Beauchamp
11-14-2012, 10:07 PM
Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

What would you say its DORP is?

I am cracking up over here.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-14-2012, 11:20 PM
Holy posts Batman!

snepp
11-14-2012, 11:22 PM
I am cracking up over here.

Chief's reply killed me.

70charger
11-14-2012, 11:46 PM
Oh, I don't know. Average-ish in it's douch-ness, I'd say.

What would you say its DORP is?

fDORP or bDORP?Well done, guys.

I lulz'd.