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View Full Version : I think that is it about time that the Twins moved out of Rochester



Thrylos
03-08-2012, 04:05 PM
It is well known that the management, fans, media of Rochester, NY do not really care about the Twins and their behavior has ranged from apathetic to totally hostile the past few years.

For me this (http://rochester.redwings.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120306&content_id=27061090&vkey=news_t534&fext=.jsp&sid=t534)broke the camel's back. They are selling Yankees' merchandise not only at the fan shop at the stadium (I kinda get that, they will be playing some games there) but online from the Twins' affiliate official site.

I don't know how you, or the Twins' management feel, but this really p*ssed me off big time.

gunnarthor
03-08-2012, 04:22 PM
I think the Twins like Rochester because it has a major airport in it. I don't think they much care about what the owners do to make money in it. If it makes you feel better, when I went to a Trenton Thunder game (AA Yankee team) a few years back, they were selling Phillies merchandise and Garciaparra jerseys (used to be a Red Sox affiliate).

cr9617
03-08-2012, 05:07 PM
Are you aware of how bad Rochester's record has been the last 2 seasons? Why would they care?

They don't owe the Twins any favors, you know....

okobojicat
03-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Most teams have really tried to bring their minor league teams close so that they can partner in marketing terms. However, there are no "decent" sized cities near MSP without a AAA team already. Des Moines and Omaha already have teams. Sioux Falls, Rochester, Duluth, St Cloud and Mankato aren't really big enough for your normal AAA size city.

But then I thought about the Mariners and they have their AAA team Tacoma pretty much in the same metropolitan district. Its a great way to build a regional consciousness of a team. I would put the AAA team in Bloomington, perhaps in a new stadium down by the Mall or near the river.

There really isn't a lot of stealing of ticket sales as people go to the games for different experiences. I do think the St Paul Saints would be pretty upset.

Any other ideas? Where would you put the AAA Twins.....if you could put them anywhere?

Thrylos
03-08-2012, 05:15 PM
Are you aware of how bad Rochester's record has been the last 2 seasons? Why would they care?

They don't owe the Twins any favors, you know....

Last time I checked they had a contract with the Twins (and not the Yankees) and they are an affiliate and not an independent minor league club. As as an affiliate they should be respecting the hand that butter's their bread... If they were an independent league club, it would had been a different story.

Thrylos
03-08-2012, 05:16 PM
Any other ideas? Where would you put the AAA Twins.....if you could put them anywhere?

Rochester.... MN

Sbb33
03-08-2012, 05:20 PM
I agree with getting out of Rochester! I cant say Ive ever been there personally, but I have talked to a few players and their wives and apparently its a dump of a city. One of the wives told me she didnt even feel safe taking a cab to watch games there. I think the organization should get them out of there if they care enough. Get them somewhere a bit warmer. Players dont hit well in cold temps and dont like playing in cold temps PERIOD!

Mr. Ed
03-08-2012, 05:35 PM
Rochester.... MN

I just don't think this area would support a AAA team.

They would need a better facility. It's less than 90 minutes from TField, and I would be surprised if the Twins would want that, taking away from their own attendance.

I would love to see them in this area, but doubt it could happen. Somewhere closer, for sure. Too bad Des Moines is so entrenched with the Cubs.

Mr. Ed
03-08-2012, 05:37 PM
And I agree Thrylos. Mandelaro writes some real hack jobs over the Twins, and I sure wish they'd find somewhere else.

whydidnt
03-08-2012, 05:41 PM
Well, I think Rochester is Ok, it would be nice if it was someplace closer, but I'm glad our affiliate is in the IL instead of the PCL, with it's inflated batting lines. I think back in the 70s Toledo was our affiliate for a few years, and that might be as close as we could get in the IL right now, but they are a nicer fit with Detroit.

jtrinaldi
03-08-2012, 05:48 PM
They have to sell SWB stuff because SWB wouldn't be able to make any concession money without having a place to play (renovations)

Thrylos
03-08-2012, 05:55 PM
They have to sell SWB stuff because SWB wouldn't be able to make any concession money without having a place to play (renovations)

I see it selling it at the ballpark when SWB plays there. But they should be selling it at the SWB web site and not the Red Wings' web site. And I am not sure how much of a cut SWB will be getting anyways...

Nicholas Mueller
03-08-2012, 06:39 PM
I read somewhere where they might align with the Manchester, NH affiliate. Personally, I would not mind this since I used to live there. Although, I'm not sure if Manchester supports their minor league team. If the AAA affiliate was moved closer to MN, they almost certainly would have to change leagues as well. I would think that they would play in the American Conference and play against Chicago (Iowa) and St. Louis's affiliate (Memphis) If the Twins were to have an affiliate in MN, could they align with the St. Paul Saints?

Thrylos
03-08-2012, 06:48 PM
If the Twins were to have an affiliate in MN, could they align with the St. Paul Saints?

That would not be realistic for several reasons:

- The Saints and the Twins are in direct competition for ticket sales
- The Saints are in an independent league and would need to join a AAA league, which would mean that a AAA league (either Pacific or International) would need to expand or lose a team

I just don't see it happening.

Nicholas Mueller
03-08-2012, 06:52 PM
That would not be realistic for several reasons:

- The Saints are in an independent league and would need to join a AAA league, which would mean that a AAA league (either Pacific or International) would need to expand or lose a team


Point taken;however, didn't the Mets disband a couple of their minor league teams? I do wonder what the Twins plan on doing after their lease ends with Rochester, NY.

Thrylos
03-08-2012, 07:11 PM
Point taken;however, didn't the Mets disband a couple of their minor league teams? I do wonder what the Twins plan on doing after their lease ends with Rochester, NY.

The Mets practically combined a couple of low level league teams by getting rid of their high level Rookie team (the equivalent of Elizabethton for the Twins) and combining it with their short season A league team in Brooklyn. The Twins cannot be without a AAA team.

Jim Crikket
03-08-2012, 07:38 PM
The geography just doesn't add up for putting another AAA team in the center of the country. Des Moines and Omaha are already isolated from the rest of the PCL and the IL doesn't extend west of Michigan and Indianapolis. Travel costs are a huge part of the expense of maintaining a AAA team.

IF the Twins really wanted to investigate a move of their AAA team closer to Minnesota, though, there would be options. Setting aside the fact that moving to a community that doesn't already have a AAA team means a community that currently does will lose their team (and the politics of such an event), putting a team in Dayton OH might be worth considering. Their Midwest League team drew over 8,000 fans per game last year... which is better than most IL teams did. I'm not sure how Columbus would feel about sharing their state with another AAA team, but they obviously don't compete much for the same fans at this point anyway.

All of that said, I really don't have a problem with Rochester selling Yankee merchandise. Running a minor league baseball team is usually a break-even proposition, at best. The Twins haven't done Rochester any favors lately in terms of the talent (or lack thereof) they've sent there to play. The result has been abysmal attendance, which means low ticket and merchandise sales revenue. They've got an opportunity this year, because of SWB's stadium situation, to make a few extra bucks and there's absolutely no reason, in my mind, why they shouldn't do it.

The agreement between the Twins and Rochester ends after this season. I'm sure both organizations are looking at other options and they'll both make whatever decisions are in their best interests. Neither of them owe the other any more than that.

Jim Crikket
03-08-2012, 07:41 PM
The Mets practically combined a couple of low level league teams by getting rid of their high level Rookie team (the equivalent of Elizabethton for the Twins) and combining it with their short season A league team in Brooklyn. The Twins cannot be without a AAA team.

People in Rochester would probably tell you that the Twins haven't fielded a AAA team in at least a couple of years.

Mr. Ed
03-08-2012, 09:16 PM
Add to this what I've heard about AA, and NB potentially hooking up with the Mets after this year, and it will be an interesting time in the minors.

Mr. Ed
03-08-2012, 09:18 PM
People in Rochester would probably tell you that the Twins haven't fielded a AAA team in at least a couple of years.

Rochester fans also complain frequently about how the star Twins,for the most part, haven't come up to rehab with them.

A lot of unhappiness there. Not sure who they'd take to make them happy. The Orioles talent dried up,and the org and community started complaining,leading to BALT leaving.

Esoteric Ball Guy
03-08-2012, 11:28 PM
I've always thought that Rochester was too far away geographically, and would love to see them move closer. I'd bet Duluth could handle a AAA team. This summer I'll be heading to Rochester for the first time so I'll reserve my judgement on the city til then, but it's a shame the closest minor league affiliate we have now is a 7-8 hour drive away.

Jeff P
03-08-2012, 11:51 PM
Would Sioux Falls work? They already have a team that plays in the Northern league or whatever it is called now so they might be happy with what they got.

Jeff

davidjcampbell
03-09-2012, 07:42 AM
I've been to Rochester a couple of times to visit friends. It is a larger place than you might think. In the 'metro area' there are over a million people. MN doesn't have anything like that outside of MSP.

If there is to be a change I could see clubs swapping cities. I know Buffalo, NY swapped Indians for Mets starting in 2009. That seems to happen all the time, you just have to see what other club has a contract up at the same time as the Twins. I have tried to look for this online for a couple of cities but can't seem to find the info.

Rochester isn't a bad city, I think when the product on the field is bad it makes it hard to get the family together to go watch that. Like the St Paul Saints. The stadium is pretty nice and they had a fun atmosphere when I was at a game there last summer.

The city is also a little depressed due to Kodak's troubles. But they have other large employers and universities. The city should be able to support a club.

James
03-09-2012, 09:18 AM
Dare I say this, but how about a team in Madison, WI? It'd be close enough to the Twin Cities, and is big enough to support a team. They already have a team in the Northwoods league, so something would have to be worked out there as well. Just a random thought.

2wins87
03-09-2012, 09:35 AM
Wow a LOT of misconceptions here.

I've been living in Rochester for the last few years attending graduate school here. So I'm sure I have a better handle on the city than any of the previous commenters.

Ok, so it's not nearly as great as Minneapolis/St. Paul (though not many places are). I'm not going to say I love it, but it's really not that bad. It's certainly has gone through a decline, which actually started a while ago. It was once one of America's richest cities per capita when George Eastman was still around and Eastman-Kodak was one of the most innovative companies in the world. It was hit hard by the shift to global manufacturing and also Kodak's bungling of the switch to digital photo technology. The city is still a shell of what it used to be, but it actually fared well through the last recession, better than any other city in New York state. This is in part due to the investments in higher education made a long time ago by Eastman, and the history as a technology center, which has led to a reasonable number of small tech start-ups often founded by ex Kodak, Xerox, and Bausch & Lomb employees. If anything it's getting better now.

As with any city that has gone through industrial decline, there are certainly some troubled spots. But I certainly wouldn't classify it as a dump. I don't plan on staying here after grad school, but it hasn't been terrible living here. And with a million people in the metro area, it's not a booming city but there aren't many bigger markets for a AAA team out there. Certainly not Rochester, MN or Duluth.

The Red Wings' franchise has gone through a number of affiliation changes, but has been in Rochester for over a hundred years, giving it one of the longest histories in any one city of any franchise at any level. This, I think, is a point of pride for some fans of the team, who actually care more about the team than who they are affiliated with. With what the Twins have given the team over the last couple years it's no surprise that some fans would be a bit antsy. But I think it's a good affiliation for the Twins to have, and just going by feel I'd say I probably see about as much Twins paraphernalia around the city as I do Yankees gear, which is unexpected in any city in New York where the Yankees have such a huge fan base. So I have to think that being a Twins affiliate makes at least some difference. I'd have to think that if anything, the Rochester ownership would dump the Twins affiliation for another team before the Twins chose another affiliate. But the franchise certainly won't go anywhere, and I at least hope it keeps its affiliation with the Twins a little longer so I can see the Twins' prospects come through while I'm here.

davidjcampbell
03-09-2012, 10:01 AM
2wins87, thanks for bringing a dose of reality - you were able to bring up a lot of points I was not able to articulate when I read the thread just after waking up this morning.

I certainly agree with your point about a large market - over a million in a team's market is great. Central NY decidedly Yankee territory in my opinion (I spent 4 years at school in Ithaca, NY - 90 miles from ROC).

One quibble - according to wiki "The Red Wings were an affiliate of the St. Louis Cardinals for 32 years (1929–1960), then spent 42 years (1961–2002) as a farm club of the Baltimore Orioles before moving on to the Twins in 2003." I would not say this is "a number of affiliation changes" - certainly not recently.

Do we think the franchise would give up the Twins after only 10 years?

One additional point to think of when we are considering other potential cities - Delta has multiple flights between MSP and ROC (usually with a layover in Detroit), that has to be worth something to have players just a short flight away.

jtrinaldi
03-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Dare I say this, but how about a team in Madison, WI? It'd be close enough to the Twin Cities, and is big enough to support a team. They already have a team in the Northwoods league, so something would have to be worked out there as well. Just a random thought.
There was a thought of Moving Beloit to Madison in the early 2000's but because Beloit, like the Packers are a community ran team, the vote to move Beloit was shut down at the first town hall meeting about it. The Midwest league offices are in Beloit as well, so that would screw everything up. Most of the Madison people just come down to Beloit anyways is only an hour drive. The funding for Beloit's new stadium is getting closer. George Spelius has said at Beloit games that he won't be satisfied as a commisioner, and a part owner of the Beloit Snappers until Beloit gets a new stadium.

ossieO
03-09-2012, 10:54 AM
This discussion reminds me of a recent Randball blog.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/137976943.html

2wins87
03-09-2012, 10:55 AM
One quibble - according to wiki "The Red Wings were an affiliate of the St. Louis Cardinals for 32 years (1929–1960), then spent 42 years (1961–2002) as a farm club of the Baltimore Orioles before moving on to the Twins in 2003." I would not say this is "a number of affiliation changes" - certainly not recently.

In my defense, the last time I checked, two was still a number. But yeah, I was going off memory and thought there was another one or two in there. But my point is that the franchise has a long history in it's own right, which makes them a good club to be affiliated with IMO.



One additional point to think of when we are considering other potential cities - Delta has multiple flights between MSP and ROC (usually with a layover in Detroit), that has to be worth something to have players just a short flight away.

They also have had at least one direct flight per day for at least the last year. I've gotten one for around $270 which I was quite happy about.

go4phan
03-09-2012, 11:06 AM
Do you think a city in either North or South Dakota could support a team? I know there are a lot of diehard fans in that region.

jtrinaldi
03-09-2012, 11:31 AM
Do you think a city in either North or South Dakota could support a team? I know there are a lot of diehard fans in that region.
not a chance. Which league would they go in?

davidjcampbell
03-09-2012, 11:32 AM
In my defense, the last time I checked, two was still a number.
Touche


Do you think a city in either North or South Dakota could support a team? I know there are a lot of diehard fans in that region.

I think ND and SD would be challenged to find a league to compete in. Eastern IA and Southern WI works because there are other teams to compete with a bus ride away. Additionally, an existing franchise would have to give up their affiliation or move. I don't know if cities try to hold on to minor league teams like they do major league franchises.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_league_baseball_leagues_and_teams)is a decent list and map (wiki).

spideyo
03-09-2012, 10:32 PM
Unless the Twins paid 100% of a stadium, they aren't going to be moving a minor league team to Minnesota anytime soon. The environment is waaay too toxic right now to ask for any level of gov't help for ANOTHER stadium.

If/When the Twins do move a minor league team closer, I actually think it would make more sense to make a deal with Sioux Falls or Fargo/Moorhead than with the Saints. They'd reach a lot of Twins fans that can't afford to get all the way to Minneapolis often, would be far enough away to not have to fight Target Field for patrons, but close enough that you could road trip out there to see the hot new prospects.

Shane Wahl
03-10-2012, 01:41 AM
Is there some way to convince the Pirates to swap (and give them some money or something). I am in Indiana and would love for the Twins AAA team to be playing at Victory Field in Indy, which is a STELLAR ballpark.

diehardtwinsfan
03-10-2012, 01:16 PM
I agree with getting out of Rochester! I cant say Ive ever been there personally, but I have talked to a few players and their wives and apparently its a dump of a city. One of the wives told me she didnt even feel safe taking a cab to watch games there. I think the organization should get them out of there if they care enough. Get them somewhere a bit warmer. Players dont hit well in cold temps and dont like playing in cold temps PERIOD!

last I checked, it gets a bit chilly in the central division sites in the spring and the fall... It's a good experience and something they should learn.

Neinstein
03-10-2012, 01:18 PM
I'd bring a boat load of fans if the affiliate were to be parked along the Mississippi.

jtrinaldi
03-10-2012, 01:38 PM
I'd bring a boat load of fans if the affiliate were to be parked along the Mississippi.
What? That made literally no sense
Currently there are 3 teams along the Mississippi in the Midwest league right now: Clinton,Burlington,Quad Cities

Neinstein
03-10-2012, 01:52 PM
What? That made literally no sense
Currently there are 3 teams along the Mississippi in the Midwest league right now: Clinton,Burlington,Quad Cities
Yes, you're correct, but did you read the title of this thread? We are talking about the AAA affiliate.

jtrinaldi
03-10-2012, 02:53 PM
Yes, you're correct, but did you read the title of this thread? We are talking about the AAA affiliate.

Yes I did, you just made an errant statement saying that there are no teams on the Mississippi, when in fact there are 3 A ball teams on the Mississippi, and on AAA.

Jim Crikket
03-10-2012, 03:10 PM
Twins President Dave St. Peter indicated at an appearance this winter that a possible affiliation with the Saints was something the Twins could be interested in at some point. It was obvious that he and the Twins would not wade in to discussions until after the issue of a new stadium for the Saints was resolved (obviously to avoid the perception that any public financing would be benefiting the Twins, among other reasons). He mentioned how great it would be for Twins fans to have a guy like Sano playing in St. Paul this summer. Veeck and the Twins are smart enough not to enter in to any sort of affiliation agreement prematurely, but I came away with the feeling that there was certainly interest in exploring the possibility once the stadium issue gets worked out one way or another.

The assumption is that they'd put their MWL low-A club in St. Paul, but honestly, there's really no reason to think St. Paul couldn't support a AAA team, outside of possible geographical challenges since St. Paul would be on the extreme edge of either the IL or PCL. They wouldn't be "competing" with the Twins any more than they do now. They attract about 8,000 fans per game already and somehow the Twins have managed to stay in business.

BD57
03-10-2012, 03:17 PM
Interesting viewpoint.

I grew up in Rochester. The first team I knew about was the Red Wings. I spent many evenings over those years going to Red Wing (later Silver) Stadium and watching some excellent baseball. So the idea that Rochester is somehow a less-than ideal minor-league affiliate town is pretty hard to swallow.

The Twins have "treated" Rochester to putrid baseball pretty much from the first moment they signed up as the Twins Triple-A affiliate. While there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for last year, what with all the injuries the Twins suffered, "how bad" the product was last year really wasn't a significant departure from what the Twins put on the playing surface @ Frontier Field over the years.

If anything, Twins management should be thankful Rochester hasn't terminated the working agreement.

jtrinaldi
03-10-2012, 03:22 PM
Twins President Dave St. Peter indicated at an appearance this winter that a possible affiliation with the Saints was something the Twins could be interested in at some point. It was obvious that he and the Twins would not wade in to discussions until after the issue of a new stadium for the Saints was resolved (obviously to avoid the perception that any public financing would be benefiting the Twins, among other reasons). He mentioned how great it would be for Twins fans to have a guy like Sano playing in St. Paul this summer. Veeck and the Twins are smart enough not to enter in to any sort of affiliation agreement prematurely, but I came away with the feeling that there was certainly interest in exploring the possibility once the stadium issue gets worked out one way or another.

The assumption is that they'd put their MWL low-A club in St. Paul, but honestly, there's really no reason to think St. Paul couldn't support a AAA team, outside of possible geographical challenges since St. Paul would be on the extreme edge of either the IL or PCL. They wouldn't be "competing" with the Twins any more than they do now. They attract about 8,000 fans per game already and somehow the Twins have managed to stay in business.
That could work, with Burlington as the only team to be considered as the replacement. Beloit cannot be removed from the MWL because it is a community owned team.

Jim Crikket
03-10-2012, 05:17 PM
That could work, with Burlington as the only team to be considered as the replacement. Beloit cannot be removed from the MWL because it is a community owned team.

I'm curious about this. The only "protection" I understood community-owned teams had has to do with not having to worry about an "owner" uprooting the franchise and moving it. But that wouldn't protect the community from losing their Major League affiliation and, therefore, their membership in a particular minor league (such as the MWL).

If a team has private ownership, it's certainly easier to pick up and move whenever a stadium lease expires. But communities also can lose their teams when affiliation contracts expire and neither their existing affiliate nor any other MLB organization enters in to a new agreement to provide players. There are also certain standards that minor league baseball requires each team's stadium to meet and older stadiums that are not renovated to meet those standards are also a risk to a community losing their team. (Cedar Rapids was definitely threatened with loss of their MWL team if they hadn't built a new stadium a decade or so ago.)

I'm very certain that Beloit's community ownership would not preclude the Twins from moving their MWL affiliation elsewhere after their current contract expires at the end of this season. I would think that, unless Beloit could attract another MLB affiliate (which might be difficult with an unresolved stadium situation), they very possibly could lose their spot in the MWL. The Snappers, as an organization, could continue to exist, but without an agreement in place with a MLB organization to provide players, they would essentially be a baseball team without a roster.

Neinstein
03-10-2012, 05:19 PM
Yes I did, you just made an errant statement saying that there are no teams on the Mississippi, when in fact there are 3 A ball teams on the Mississippi, and on AAA.
. . . . . . . . . .
If you're going to comment on AAA Rochester baseball, you must first get "A" ball, Midwest League and Beloit out of your head.
This thread has nothing to do with "A" ball, the Midwest League or Beloit.
I'm sorry if I'm being redundant here, I just don't want to waste any more of your time or my own.

strumdatjag
03-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Move to Fargo-Moorhead. The population is similar to the city of Rochester, is wealthier, and is loaded with Twins fans. By the way, I have no connection to anything NoDakian

jtrinaldi
03-10-2012, 06:48 PM
I'm curious about this. The only "protection" I understood community-owned teams had has to do with not having to worry about an "owner" uprooting the franchise and moving it. But that wouldn't protect the community from losing their Major League affiliation and, therefore, their membership in a particular minor league (such as the MWL).

If a team has private ownership, it's certainly easier to pick up and move whenever a stadium lease expires. But communities also can lose their teams when affiliation contracts expire and neither their existing affiliate nor any other MLB organization enters in to a new agreement to provide players. There are also certain standards that minor league baseball requires each team's stadium to meet and older stadiums that are not renovated to meet those standards are also a risk to a community losing their team. (Cedar Rapids was definitely threatened with loss of their MWL team if they hadn't built a new stadium a decade or so ago.)

I'm very certain that Beloit's community ownership would not preclude the Twins from moving their MWL affiliation elsewhere after their current contract expires at the end of this season. I would think that, unless Beloit could attract another MLB affiliate (which might be difficult with an unresolved stadium situation), they very possibly could lose their spot in the MWL. The Snappers, as an organization, could continue to exist, but without an agreement in place with a MLB organization to provide players, they would essentially be a baseball team without a roster.
Beloit is currently more than 3/4ths the way from raising enough money to put a new stadium in Beloit. I say Burlington because It was brought up last year that Burlington may be losing their MWL team. Not to mention they have been in last place in Attendence for the last 10 years. Beloit will be in danger of losing their team after Burlington loses theirs.
It also helps having the Midwest league offices in Beloit.

Shane Wahl
03-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Move to Fargo-Moorhead. The population is similar to the city of Rochester, is wealthier, and is loaded with Twins fans. By the way, I have no connection to anything NoDakian

I think it would be good to have a Dakota team represented in the system somewhere, maybe not AAA, though. Rochester is actually quite bigger than F-M.

Thrylos
03-10-2012, 07:30 PM
Interesting viewpoint.

I grew up in Rochester. The first team I knew about was the Red Wings. I spent many evenings over those years going to Red Wing (later Silver) Stadium and watching some excellent baseball. So the idea that Rochester is somehow a less-than ideal minor-league affiliate town is pretty hard to swallow.

The Twins have "treated" Rochester to putrid baseball pretty much from the first moment they signed up as the Twins Triple-A affiliate. While there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for last year, what with all the injuries the Twins suffered, "how bad" the product was last year really wasn't a significant departure from what the Twins put on the playing surface @ Frontier Field over the years.

If anything, Twins management should be thankful Rochester hasn't terminated the working agreement.

You are looking it from the Rochester Native perspective. Clearly you are a Red Wings fan and probably not a Twins' fan.

The Twins owe nothing to Rochester: They pay the salaries of the players and coaches and they put the product on the field that puts rear ends on seats that make money for the Red Wings' management. Also, the Twins pay a sum of money for the affiliation on top of that. So, basically, it is "rent" for use of the facilities. The Red Wings' management are the landlords and caretakers of the ball park and deal only with the upkeep of the park (part of it subsidized by the Twins) concessions and the silly in-between play antics.

Selling another MLB team's gear from their website is totally unexcusable in my mind. They are still under contract with the Twins, last time I checked...

shawntheroad
03-10-2012, 07:39 PM
Selfishly, I'd like to see the Twins stay in Rochester. It is somewhat close to me and i like to go to the occasional game. The relationship with the Twins and Wings hasn't been great and if the Twins could find a way to bring the AAA team closer to Minnesota, they should probably do it.

Jim Crikket
03-10-2012, 08:03 PM
thrylos, I guess I don't understand why you think the Twins "don't owe Rochester" anything, beyond what they're contractually obligated to provide... but you think the people running the Rochester organization DO owe the Twins something beyond what's in their contract. Rochester is, I believe, a community owned organization, and their ability to maintain a quality facility relies on income. The crapfest that the Twins have provided recently, in terms of talent, has meant Rochester has lost revenue, so if they have a way to generate more revenue by selling merchandise of a team that's popular with their community fan base, I don't see why they "owe" the Twins anything that would be beyond what's in their contract either.

If the Twins had a problem with an affiliate selling another team's merchandise, they need to include restrictive language in their contracts with affiliates. Of course, most minor league organizations would likely tell the Twins to shove that language up their ass and sign a different team.

DakotaTwins
03-10-2012, 08:10 PM
There is WAY more to just moving an affiliated franchise then all of you are saying. Let's say the Twins were able to move their AAA team to St. Paul. Before doing so, an existing AAA franchise would need to either be sold and/or relocated (with current ownership) to St. Paul (or whatever city). You can't just add a team without removing on. Approval needs to be granted by not only the league itself (IL or PCL), but also from MiLB and MLB. I also believe (but I am not certain) that the Twins would need to approve the move of a team within their territory. Obviously they would approve if they want the affiliate there.

If you wanted to put a AAA team in Dayton, OH then you need to get the Dayton franchise to first WANT to change levels. If they would choose to change levels, then you need to add another Class A team and reduce AAA by another team. The agreement between MiLB and MLB is so that all existing franchises are GUARANTEED to have a MLB affiliate. So, there is no way that Beloit could be a team without players. They are guaranteed to have a MLB affiliate.

There is nothing stopping MiLB from setting up a team in ANY city that already hosts an affiliated or college-league team. If the proper approvals were granted, then a team could step into St. Paul without any compensation given, or approval granted from the Saints. However, it would be highly unlikely that that would happen while the Saints are still in town.

Lastly, the minor league team decides which level it chooses to be in, not the MLB team affiliated with it. The MLB team simply has a "list" of teams at each level that it can negotiate and affiliate with.

Thrylos
03-10-2012, 09:00 PM
thrylos, I guess I don't understand why you think the Twins "don't owe Rochester" anything, beyond what they're contractually obligated to provide... but you think the people running the Rochester organization DO owe the Twins something beyond what's in their contract. .

a couple of things there:

- First: I am not privy to those contracts and what is specified
- Second: I am a Twins' fan and I don't care much about Rochester NY or that community (other than I want them to be safe prosperous and happy, like any other community in the world I am not living in.)

And I will give you an example that might get my point across. Imaginary situation: College sports. Let's say basketball. Let's say that the Cyclones were killing it (pretty much) and the Hawkeyes did not make the NIT tourney. How would you feel if the Hawkeyes were peddling Cyclone, or Duke, or Ohio State gear in their web site?

DakotaTwins
03-10-2012, 11:00 PM
There are LOTS of teams that sell merchandise of other league teams in their novelty store. I can't speak for what they do on their website.

This has nothing to do with loyalty to their parent club and everything to do with providing a service to the fans (if the fans didn't want to buy them they wouldn't offer them for sale) and MAKING MONEY.

Jim Crikket
03-11-2012, 12:08 AM
And I will give you an example that might get my point across. Imaginary situation: College sports. Let's say basketball. Let's say that the Cyclones were killing it (pretty much) and the Hawkeyes did not make the NIT tourney. How would you feel if the Hawkeyes were peddling Cyclone, or Duke, or Ohio State gear in their web site?

That's not the same thing... your example would be comparable to the Twins selling Yankees merchandise, not Rochester. If I owned a retail store in Iowa City that I decked out in black and gold and the U of I provided merchandise for me to sell, but they ended up fielding bad teams and crappy merchandise that didn't sell, while ISU merchandise turned out to be in high demand, I would sell what my customers are willing to pay for.

DakotaTwins is right, this isn't about loyalty, it's about two businesses doing what they need to do to make money. Neither party is harmed in any way. You may not care about the community of Rochester, but the Red Wings organization certainly does... it must. They aren't owned by the Twins, they are merely a business partner. They make their money based on selling what those in the Rochester community want to buy. It's not surprising that a lot of that is Yankees merchandise.

jtrinaldi
03-11-2012, 09:24 AM
That's not the same thing... your example would be comparable to the Twins selling Yankees merchandise, not Rochester. If I owned a retail store in Iowa City that I decked out in black and gold and the U of I provided merchandise for me to sell, but they ended up fielding bad teams and crappy merchandise that didn't sell, while ISU merchandise turned out to be in high demand, I would sell what my customers are willing to pay for.

DakotaTwins is right, this isn't about loyalty, it's about two businesses doing what they need to do to make money. Neither party is harmed in any way. You may not care about the community of Rochester, but the Red Wings organization certainly does... it must. They aren't owned by the Twins, they are merely a business partner. They make their money based on selling what those in the Rochester community want to buy. It's not surprising that a lot of that is Yankees merchandise.
Exactly, they are just trying to Capitalize because SWB has to play a lot of games there,and Rochester is in NY,which is likely to have Yankee fans all over the state.

BD57
03-11-2012, 02:55 PM
I've been a Twins fan since 1965, when I was 8. Watching the World Series that year is the first TV baseball I can remember.

I don't live in Rochester now. Haven't since 1972, though I was back for summers through 1980 (end of college years). I've been living in Florida since 1972 - haven't been to Frontier Field in Rochester ... seen more games @ the Metrodome than any other MLB park and really, really want to see Target Field, just haven't been able to make it work out yet. Like I said, I live in Florida now.

My Minnesota bona fides ....

While I was born in Iowa, my dad grew up in Lakefield Minnesota; my mom in St. Paul. My dad has an EE degree from the University of Minnesota and is a big supporter of the Williams Fund. I get the "Sports package" on DirecTV for one reason, and one reason only - I get to watch University of Minnesota hockey during the winter months. I was at the U when TCF Bank Stadium opened.

The first Twins game I saw in person, Tom Hall pitched 5 perfect innings, Harmon & Leo Cardenas hit home runs and the Twins won. Went to an 11:00 a.m. game with my dad in 1987, during the pennant drive. Came to Minnesota in 2007 to celebrate my dad's 80th birthday - we celebrated at a Twins game (went again the next day too). The weekend TCF Bank opened, my youngest and i went to two Twins games. I have Extra Innings, MLB.TV & the "At Bat" app so I can watch / listen to Twins games wherever I might be at the moment. As miserable as last year was, I probably watched 120 of the games - maybe even more.

I was a Little League manager for two years - we were the "Twins" both years. My "real" jerseys ... a BP jersey I wore while managing my Twins teams (because that's what the kids jerseys looked like); the current home jersey (customized); a Joe Mauer 2011 3rd Jersey (the reproduction of the 60's flannel); and three Mitchell & Ness jerseys ... Killebrew '65, Killebrew '69 (road) and Puckett '84. Add to that a Twins "heavy" jacket from 5+ years ago or so (the one you saw Gardy wearing whenever it was chilly) and at least a half-dozen "on the field" fitted Twins hats ... plus a couple of the "BP" hats.

In short ... I don't have to defend my "Twins" roots or rooting interest to you or anyone else.

It is GOOD BUSINESS for the MLB club to take care of and care for their minor league affiliates. You want "loyalty up" the chain of command? Lead by example & show loyalty down that chain of command.

The Twins don't "own" the Red Wings; they aren't guaranteeing that the Red Wings will "break even," etc. Want to sell more Twins stuff? Put a good product on the field.

The Twins haven't been doing that for Rochester. Add to that the perception that the MLB guys don't like Rochester - while there have been exceptions, more often than not, the MLB guys go anywhere but Rochester for their rehab assignments. Seriously ... what is a major league baseball player doing playing "High-A" games in Florida to get ready to play in the bigs?

The Twins haven't done a good job with Rochester. They'd be wise to start.

Jim Crikket
03-11-2012, 03:03 PM
While I agree with BD57, in general, the only point I'd make is with regard to rehab assignments. Pitchers have gone to Rochester as part of their rehab more than hitters have and that's primarily because, as a pitcher, you want to face the highest level hitters you can. Hitters are generally more concerned about just getting timing down and getting some work in the field and that can be done at any level. Since the Miracle play their games at the Twins' winter complex, they have training facilities and staff down there that aren't necessarily available at other minor league clubhouses. Of course, if the Twins did find a way to place an affiliate in St. Paul, that would no longer be an issue, since the rehabbing player could work out with Twins staff at TF.