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View Full Version : Reds SS Zack Cozart for... Ben Revere?



scottz
11-09-2012, 01:19 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/reds-could-trade-zack-cozart-or-didi-gregorius.html

I like Cozart - don't know much about Gregorius. And I'm not sure I love the idea of losing Span as a trading chip and not getting back a pitcher. However, I think most agree that the middle infield could use some help. Would a trade centered on Span for SS be acceptable to you?

If nothing else, I think it is a good thing to have buzz centered around Span to as many teams as possible. If the Braves/Mariners/whomever think that Span is being discussed with the Reds/other teams, then theoretically, those teams might have to offer more than they would otherwise.

Discuss!

Winston Smith
11-09-2012, 01:42 PM
Didi and Cingrani for Span and a low prospect could work. Young starter and SS would really help.

John Bonnes
11-09-2012, 01:49 PM
Jon Paul Morosi reports that Cincinnati Red GM Walt Jocketty is open to trading away one of his shortstops (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/article/jocketty_reds_could_trade_shortstop_this_winter/12165043) - Zack Cozart or Didi Gregorious - for a closer or center field/lead off hitter. The Twins are specifically mentioned by Morosi as one of the options for a trade.

Cozart is a guy I wrote up in the Handbook. He's interesting, not spectacular. He's 27 and has some power - he hit 15 HR with the Reds and has a career slugging percentage of .421 in the minors. (His AAA numbers: .275/.327/.432 with 158K and 63 BB in 960 AB.) He's right handed, though I don't know if he's a pull hitter. Best of all, he graded out very well defensively (+9 UZR/150).

IN the Handbook, I suggested trading Span for Cozart, and I don't think that's a terrible idea. But a better idea might be to float Revere. He's young, he's cheap, he's good defensively, he's a lead off guy that steals bases. (Think of him and Hamilton at the top of that lineup in a few years.) That would probably mean hanging onto Span for this offseason, but he could be moved at the deadline when Hicks is hopefully ready to be called up. Plus, the Twins have their shortstop for the next few years.

Top Gun
11-09-2012, 01:50 PM
Span for Asdrubal then sign Josh Hamilton, to hell with pitching.

John Bonnes
11-09-2012, 01:51 PM
Darn, second duplicate thread I've started today. They're combined now....

gunnarthor
11-09-2012, 01:53 PM
I think you're over rating Cozart. He had a .632 OPS away from the Reds bandbox stadium. His power won't translate to TF. He's defense is solid but it's not worth giving up a better defender in CF. I still think Span to the Reds for Didi + pitcher makes sense. But Span (or Revere) straight up for Cozart is a bad trade for us.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-09-2012, 01:53 PM
I wish we could trade for Billy Hamilton :)

Seth Stohs
11-09-2012, 01:55 PM
Cozart does nothing for me. Gregorius is intriguing. I wouldn't deal Span for either of them. I would deal Revere for Gregorius.

And yes, anything that could bring Tony Cingrani would be good with me!

John Bonnes
11-09-2012, 02:03 PM
What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.

nicksaviking
11-09-2012, 02:04 PM
I'd rather chase after Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson. Neither SS looks to be able to get on base enough to be a centerpiece of a deal. If the Twins can talk the Reds into one of the starters AND one of the SS that would be great in my book, but my money is on that asking price being the sticking point last July when the trade fell through for Span. I said during the season I hope the Reds get bounced from the playoffs in the first round and get even more desperate for a CF/leadoff hitter. Maybe they're more willing to overpay now.

gunnarthor
11-09-2012, 02:10 PM
What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.

Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.

gunnarthor
11-09-2012, 02:11 PM
I'd rather chase after Cingrani, Corcino or Stephenson. Neither SS looks to be able to get on base enough to be a centerpiece of a deal. If the Twins can talk the Reds into one of the starters AND one of the SS that would be great in my book, but my money is on that asking price being the sticking point last July when the trade fell through for Span. I said during the season I hope the Reds get bounced from the playoffs in the first round and get even more desperate for a CF/leadoff hitter. Maybe they're more willing to overpay now.

Agree 100%.

iastfan112
11-09-2012, 02:16 PM
I'm intrigued by Cozart, thought he looked pretty good in the few Red's games I watched last year. I'd want something in addition to him if we're giving up Span or Revere but he'd be a solid starting point.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Cozart is interesting, as we would be buying low on him at this point. What happened to his speed? He had 30 SB in 2010 then totally dropped off.

His defense is sound, is under team control til 2018 and if he could manage to put up a .720 OPS he would be the best long term SS the Twins have had in quite a while. He has some solid pop.

I would definitely think hard about trading Revere for him straight up, since Revere's long term prospects are more of a 4th OF then an every day player. If it were me I'd make the swap in a heart beat.

Boom Boom
11-09-2012, 02:42 PM
Shortstop? We've got a three-headed Dozier/Florimon/Field monster there. No space for Cozart.

ThePuck
11-09-2012, 02:46 PM
Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.

Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA

Siehbiscuit
11-09-2012, 02:55 PM
The Red's rotation is pretty deep and they continue to flirt with moving Aroldis Chapman back to the rotation. Would a Span for CHapman swap be a good option for both?

AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS
11-09-2012, 03:45 PM
Am I the only one who is interested in Stephen Drew? He will be cheap, and if he comes anywhere near his playing days in Arizona its a fricken steal. Why not take a chance.

gunnarthor
11-09-2012, 03:57 PM
Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.

Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA

Didi was signed as an international free agent from the Netherlands. Arguing that Dozier spent less time in the minors is, at best, a canard. Dozier spent 4 years playing in college then spent the next 3+ years in the minors before making the majors at 25. While neither has dominated the upper levels of the minors, Didi has managed to beat Dozier to those levels by three years. Also, unlike Dozier, he is good defensively. No one should suggest that Dozier is a better option.

ThePuck
11-09-2012, 04:31 PM
Didi made the majors at 22, Dozier was in rookie ball. Dozier hasn't shown the ability to get on base above AA. Scouts like Didi, he won't be a star but he'll stick at short and his bat should be better than Cozart's.

Didi was drafted out of high school, Dozier went to college. Dozier spent less time in the minors before getting called up. Didi also didn't show the ability to get on base past AA

Didi was signed as an international free agent from the Netherlands. Arguing that Dozier spent less time in the minors is, at best, a canard. Dozier spent 4 years playing in college then spent the next 3+ years in the minors before making the majors at 25. While neither has dominated the upper levels of the minors, Didi has managed to beat Dozier to those levels by three years. Also, unlike Dozier, he is good defensively. No one should suggest that Dozier is a better option.

You mentioned their age for when they reached the majors as to why one was better than the other...and my point was, they were drafted/signed at different ages so JUST looking at age for when they made the majors makes no sense since one was drafted/signed at 18 and one was drafted after 4 years in college. Of course Dozier was in rookie ball at 22. When he was drafted, he was 22. His first year in the minors, he was 22. Heck, only 3 years in the minors for a position player to make the majors is grease lightning for the Twins...

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-09-2012, 05:19 PM
What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.

Cozart cannot draw walks and that's a very important part of a batter. Didi is 22 and not an old guy like Dozier. His glove REALLY worries me though. Revere for Gregorius as a trade foundation to work from could really be beneficial for the Twins. This is a very good and creative way to get a potential good short on the cheap that the Twins should definitely look into! Although, I'm not sold on either of the shortstops so good scouting is completely necessary and I wouldn't mind if the Twins didn't finish a deal.

beckmt
11-09-2012, 10:24 PM
Would do it if it is Revere, need defensive SS who might hit a bit. Would not preclude trading Span for pitching. Like the idea, Twins need to do something. Could start Hicks or Benson in CF if Span is traded for pitching.
I also have been lobbing for Stephen Drew. Would be a better option, but depend on price.

Kobs
11-09-2012, 11:08 PM
Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?

Willihammer
11-09-2012, 11:55 PM
Gregorius bats lefthanded, that's one thing going for him.

But the more I think about it, the less I like trading any of our outfielders for SS's of this caliber. We have Carroll for 1-2 years still. Dozier had such a horrible year year at the MLB and MilB level, it looks suspiciously like it was a one-off. Parmelee's year looks suspiciously like a one-off. Worst thing would be to trade one of our 3-4 win outfielders, bring in a marginal upgrade at SS, and then find out that Dozier is tearing it up at AAA while Parmelee is stinking it up getting everyday at bats with the Twins.

Riverbrian
11-10-2012, 12:26 PM
A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.

rgslone
11-11-2012, 06:58 PM
A trade like this with the Reds doesn't make sense to me. Zach Cozart is the starting SS with the Reds. Didi isn't anything yet but is the only SS depth they have. Hamilton has been working towards a CF gig.

Why would the Reds move a SS? That seems foolish to me.

Personally I'd rather see Denard or Ben traded for Pitching and I don't have much interest in questionable infielders... We have questionable infielders already.

We don't have a ton of trade chips. I sure hope we focus on pitching with the trade chips we have.

Our SS situation is not good... Our Starting pitching is ten miles below our SS situation.

You have a good perspective on the Reds SS dilemma. Given the Twins CF depth I think a Span/Revere for Cozart/Gregorious deal would be to the Twins benefit. Cozart has speed, power, and was in line for the Gold Glove this season. He's a solid SS that many MLB teams would like to have starting for them. Gregorious has speed (although not a great base stealer at this point), great defense and arm, and projects to be a good contact hitter and is starting to show power that most scouts have always said is there - plus he's 22 yrs. old and hits left-handed. The problem with a deal from the Reds standpoint, however, is they may not be comfortable yet deciding which player will be their SS of the future. They likely feel that Gregorious needs another year (or at least half a season) at AAA, and they have no option other than Cozart for 2013.

johnnydakota
11-11-2012, 10:37 PM
What do you guys see in Gregorius that I don't? I see a guy whose sole statistical benefit is that he's young. He isn't fast. He doesn't have any power. He's not adept at getting on base. I think I'd rather have Brian Dozier than Gregorius - at least Dozier showed in the minors he can get on base.

What am I missing?

I'm not looking at Cozart as a star, but as a solid player for the next four years. Think Jason Bartlett but without the plate discipline, with more power and a more consistent glove.

geez by signing izturis you could have had as good and not traded anyone

johnnydakota
11-11-2012, 10:40 PM
Didn't the Twins just trade for a no hit shortstop a few months ago?
and also picked one up on waivers from baltimore

TopGunn#22
11-11-2012, 10:50 PM
I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.

glunn
11-12-2012, 12:25 AM
I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.

I agree. The biggest need by far is pitching. Any trades should focus on that.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-12-2012, 01:35 AM
I agree with Riverbrain. If you're going to deal Span/Revere/Willingham/Morneau etc...the Twins simply must get pitching back in return. As Gibson and J.O. Berrios or Liam Hendricks develop along with the other arms we would acquire in a trade the Twins could find themselves able to trade pitching to fill other holes in 3 years or so. The Twins should be able to compete next year. The fan base will demand it. If we stink it up next year again, Gardy and Andy will be gone. The idea of Stephen Drew for the "right price" is interesting. Bonnes or Seth should define what the "right price" is.

I agree. The biggest need by far is pitching. Any trades should focus on that.

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

old nurse
11-12-2012, 06:02 AM
[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.

edavis0308
11-12-2012, 09:39 AM
[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.


That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

mike wants wins
11-12-2012, 09:54 AM
And if you never draft pitchers, how does that work out, given that you need 12 at a time?

They have one starting pitcher on their roster right now. One. When they deal, they need to get pitching, assuming they do jot sign three free agents that can start.

old nurse
11-12-2012, 12:04 PM
[

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-12-2012, 12:57 PM
[

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.

DeVries is not a C+ pitcher, at best DeVries is replacement level.

mnfanforlife
11-12-2012, 02:12 PM
The Red's rotation is pretty deep and they continue to flirt with moving Aroldis Chapman back to the rotation. Would a Span for CHapman swap be a good option for both?

It would be an awesome option for the Twins, but the Reds wouldnt do it straight up. Chapman is too good. Prob take some top twins prospects and Span to get anywhere near a deal fro Aroldis

old nurse
11-12-2012, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=edavis0308;62408][

That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

Like after the first few players are drafted there is a discernible difference between grouped players.

It would take greater value to get a b+ pitcher than a b+ MI. The shortstop signed by Toronto was signed for as much money as Marquis got last year. The greater efficiency is had by drafting well. When you have not, you have to be creative.

I really do not think Span would be traded for a C+ pitcher. Cole DeVries has made himself a C+ pitcher. The prospects mentioned for Span rated much higher.

DeVries is not a C+ pitcher, at best DeVries is replacement level.[/QUOTE ]
Sickles definition of a C prospect is one with a question mark or three. At the higher levels that would fit DeVries. 7 of his 16 starts qualified as quality starts.

nicksaviking
11-12-2012, 03:09 PM
[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.


That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

Besides, it's not like the teams we are talking about are talent rich in offense, the Braves, Reds, Rays and Mariners have much better pitching options to deal than they do on offense. Anyone who thinks there is more value in future utility player Didi Gregarius than in Tony Cingrani, Daniel Corcino or Robert Stephenson is crazy. Trade for cheap young promising pitching and then you can afford to overpay a little to make sure you get your veteran middle infielder. Otherwise your trading for an a uninspriring guy like Gregorius and end up paying top dollar for short term uninspiring starters.

I'd rather rather have a Cingrani or Mike Minor and pay Stephen Drew or Jeff Keppinger on the open market, then end up with Gregorius or Tyler Pastronicky and have to settle for Joe Saunders or Joe Blanton.

edavis0308
11-12-2012, 04:59 PM
All I am saying is it isnt a good way to run a team to draft and trade for players of lesser talent because they fill a more pressing need.

old nurse
11-12-2012, 06:04 PM
All I am saying is it isnt a good way to run a team to draft and trade for players of lesser talent because they fill a more pressing need.

There are people on this board speculating as what to do in terms of a trade, not people running a team. For the most part Ryan's trades end up about equall or better return in the talent trading department.

rgslone
11-12-2012, 08:39 PM
[

That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.


That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

Besides, it's not like the teams we are talking about are talent rich in offense, the Braves, Reds, Rays and Mariners have much better pitching options to deal than they do on offense. Anyone who thinks there is more value in future utility player Didi Gregarius than in Tony Cingrani, Daniel Corcino or Robert Stephenson is crazy. Trade for cheap young promising pitching and then you can afford to overpay a little to make sure you get your veteran middle infielder. Otherwise your trading for an a uninspriring guy like Gregorius and end up paying top dollar for short term uninspiring starters.

I'd rather rather have a Cingrani or Mike Minor and pay Stephen Drew or Jeff Keppinger on the open market, then end up with Gregorius or Tyler Pastronicky and have to settle for Joe Saunders or Joe Blanton.

You may well be correct that the Twins should pursue a starter prospect instead of a SS. Still, the premise of the discussion was about getting a SS. So, if getting a SS is the goal, then I doubt that the Twins will pick up a better option than Cozart or Gregorious for a player like Span or Revere (both of whom are good players, but not stars). I also think that you're wrong about the value of Gregorius. He's a prospect, which by definition means that he may not pan out. But his potential, both offensively and defensively, and how close he is to being ready make him one of the best SS prospect bets the Twins could make (again, assuming a young SS is the way they want to go).

70charger
11-12-2012, 09:06 PM
Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

Riverbrian
11-12-2012, 09:21 PM
All I am saying is it isnt a good way to run a team to draft and trade for players of lesser talent because they fill a more pressing need.

Drafting and trading are different... Surely you can see that... You don't draft for need because your needs change by the time they are ready... Trading for needs is exactly why you trade in the first place. I have a need... Lets make a trade and try to fix it. If you didn't have a need... There would be no trades.

Right? I'm not crazy here. Yes we need a SS... But we need pitching much much much much much more. We don't have a ton of trade chips so use them wisely. Why make a deal for a .50 to .100 uptick in OPS. What does that accomplish when your pitching staff is collectively over 5 ERA.

edavis0308
11-12-2012, 09:39 PM
Hey we needed relief pitching help a few years ago so we gave up an all star shortstop for relief help, which was of bigger need. How'd that work out?

nicksaviking
11-12-2012, 10:19 PM
Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

Ryan was GM in the mid 1990's as well when payrolls were pretty flat across the league and salaries were not exponentioally larger than league minimum. Only once did he sign a non-Twin starter to more than one year. We don't need patience, we've seen proof. He's amongst the most conservative GM's in the league, but hopefully he'll feel motivated to change if he feels the entire front office's job is on the line.

TRex
11-12-2012, 10:57 PM
Below is a graph of the so-called 'flat across the league' salaries of the mid to late 90's. Please note that the average Yankee's payroll is 3x that of the Twins!

Another 14 teams are >2-fold higher than the Twins. Of course, this doesn't prove that TRyan will not be afraid
to sign veterans, just that he really didn't have the opportunity in the 90's as you indicated.



http://www.stlsports.com/articles/ja.mlbsalaries.html

old nurse
11-12-2012, 11:24 PM
Hey we needed relief pitching help a few years ago so we gave up an all star shortstop for relief help, which was of bigger need. How'd that work out?

Hey, that was Bill Smith. Guess who is no longer GM. The Hardy saga has been well discussed on this board. Try again to name a trade that RYAN made where he got burned.

old nurse
11-12-2012, 11:28 PM
Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

Ryan was GM in the mid 1990's as well when payrolls were pretty flat across the league and salaries were not exponentioally larger than league minimum. Only once did he sign a non-Twin starter to more than one year. We don't need patience, we've seen proof. He's amongst the most conservative GM's in the league, but hopefully he'll feel motivated to change if he feels the entire front office's job is on the line.

The minimum wage is negotiated by the union. The upper limit on a player's salary is whaat someone will pay. Even the union realizes there are some limitations to their portion of the revenue. Why would they take fromthemselves to givee to the rookies in the form of higher pay.

Riverbrian
11-12-2012, 11:34 PM
Hey we needed relief pitching help a few years ago so we gave up an all star shortstop for relief help, which was of bigger need. How'd that work out?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is WTF does Hardy for Hoey have to do with anything. The second thing that comes to mind is... I'm not sure cuz I have to keep coming back to WTF does Hardy for Hoey have to do with anything.

It was a bad trade and it may be part of the reason Bill Smith is currently hanging around architects in Lee County Florida.

The Royals need pitching so they acquire Santana... The Angels need less payroll so they trade him. Need is the cornerstone of all trades. I'm really not sure that you want to argue that point but go ahead.

diehardtwinsfan
11-13-2012, 08:33 PM
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That's a goodway to not maximize value then. If a team is going to offer you either a:

B+ Prospect who plays middle INF, or a C+/B- prospect who is a pitcher the Twins would be quite foolish to take the pitcher just because "there is a greater need"

If you do not have enough B- pitching prospect available to fill your needs then you have to trade for what is scarcer. You can always pick up another MI, for younger prospects. You might not always find a pitching rich team.


That's not the most efficient method of doing things though. It's like drafting a pitcher for the sake of needing pitchers instead of drafting best player available. If you always draft to need and not to talent available, you are making your overall system weaker in the process.

and when exactly do you consider need? Using this logic, you will end up of a top 10 that consists solely of outfielders. I get that you should always take the BPA, but at one point, need has to be factored in.

diehardtwinsfan
11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Hey we needed relief pitching help a few years ago so we gave up an all star shortstop for relief help, which was of bigger need. How'd that work out?

considering we had no depth in the middle infield, I'd say poorly... Middle infield and starting pitching are what commands a premium in baseball.

That said, I can tell you this. Not one person who is saying trade for need likely liked the JJ trade. That should tell you everything you need to know about it.

Chris in Osaka
11-13-2012, 08:47 PM
Why would you want Hamilton?

Chris in Osaka
11-13-2012, 08:50 PM
But Ryan was still involved with the team during Smith's reign. He wasn't drinking pina coladas with Ginger and Mary Ann in some lagoon in the Pacific.

USAFChief
11-13-2012, 09:09 PM
What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

This isn't Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. Or did someone else sign Willingham, Doumit and Carroll last winter?

70charger
11-14-2012, 01:30 AM
What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

This isn't Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. Or did someone else sign Willingham, Doumit and Carroll last winter?

Yeah, that's my bad. But I do think that my point still stands.

nicksaviking
11-14-2012, 10:15 AM
Except the Twins GM has proven time and time again that he is afraid to sign free agent pitchers to multi-year deals. Therefore, the only way to get a controlable pitcher is to trade for one. Ryan is not afraid to sign offensive free agent vets.

What is "proven" in the context of a $40 million payroll and the Metrodome is not proven when we're talking about a $90 million payroll at Target Field. Let's not forget that this is Terry Ryan's first offseason with the new-look Twins. A little patience, please.

Ryan was GM in the mid 1990's as well when payrolls were pretty flat across the league and salaries were not exponentioally larger than league minimum. Only once did he sign a non-Twin starter to more than one year. We don't need patience, we've seen proof. He's amongst the most conservative GM's in the league, but hopefully he'll feel motivated to change if he feels the entire front office's job is on the line.

The minimum wage is negotiated by the union. The upper limit on a player's salary is whaat someone will pay. Even the union realizes there are some limitations to their portion of the revenue. Why would they take fromthemselves to givee to the rookies in the form of higher pay.

I'm seriously not trying to pick a fight, but I really don't have a clue what this has to do with the discussion about whether TR will finally open up the pocketbook to pay for legit pitchers. Besides, it's not the money Ryan is afraid of so much as it is the years. A higher team payroll isn't going to suddenly make him feel comfotable giving out a four year deal.

mike wants wins
11-14-2012, 10:44 AM
The years is really about money though, right? Not wanting to over commit to money in the future.

edavis0308
11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
I think we need to step back and reboot the discussion with the topic at hand a bit. We are all obviously taking completely different looks at things here.

All I am saying is that, of our best trade chips, we shouldn't trade them for mediocre pitching for the sake of acquiring pitching if that same trade chip could have been used to acquire better talent than that. If we can get decent pitching for it - that is fantastic. Don't like the term mediocre pitching? Plug something else into it. The point there still remains. The Hardy trade was brought up (I know it has been discussed at great lengths and everyone is tired of it) because Hardy was dealt for a need, power arms, when he could have likely been traded for a better return than that.

And yes, you don't want to take the BPA in the draft for ten years straight if the best player every year is an OF. On the flip side, you don't want to draft for need for 10 years in a row either... but that's another topic entirely.

Riverbrian
11-14-2012, 05:17 PM
I think we need to step back and reboot the discussion with the topic at hand a bit. We are all obviously taking completely different looks at things here.

All I am saying is that, of our best trade chips, we shouldn't trade them for mediocre pitching for the sake of acquiring pitching if that same trade chip could have been used to acquire better talent than that. If we can get decent pitching for it - that is fantastic. Don't like the term mediocre pitching? Plug something else into it. The point there still remains. The Hardy trade was brought up (I know it has been discussed at great lengths and everyone is tired of it) because Hardy was dealt for a need, power arms, when he could have likely been traded for a better return than that.

And yes, you don't want to take the BPA in the draft for ten years straight if the best player every year is an OF. On the flip side, you don't want to draft for need for 10 years in a row either... but that's another topic entirely.

I getcha Davis... I guess it all rests upon whose definition of mediocre pitching. Mediocre Pitching in my definition is what we currently have.

I honestly don't believe there is a position player that is reachable for us via trade that can overcome our own Mediocre pitching. Trading for Jose Reyes would be fantastic but it wouldn't do much for the Twins in my opinion because the pitching will render the acquisition worthless. Jose Reyes simply couldn't add enough offense to overcome the pitching staff.

Cozart is an improvement but the addition of Cozart will not overcome the pitching hole that we have. We need to acquire arms that are better then what we have and we have limited trade options to accomplish it. No one wants to see a trade of Span for Marquis... Hopefully if Span is dealt it will be for someone with a little more upside.

A direct infusion into the rotation would be much better for the club than an improvement in spots 2 thru 9. I think we are on the same page... Neither of us want a desparation trade for pitching that nets us Marquis.