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Parker Hageman
11-07-2012, 03:34 PM
David O' Brian, Braves beat writer for the Atlanta Constitution Journal (https://twitter.com/ajcbraves/status/266288347775909888), says its so. Also adds that the Twins are concerned about replacing that right-handed bat.

What say you? Trade Willingham?

Winston Smith
11-07-2012, 03:58 PM
Sure, Delgado and Minor?

John Bonnes
11-07-2012, 04:03 PM
First, I'm a little disturbed that getting right-handed power power back would be a deal-breaker, so I'm going to gloss over that.

OK, let's break this down.....

In the Handbook, the pitchers Braves could offer are in this order... "Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson, Paul Maholm, Randall Delgado, Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, Tim Hudson, and Kris Medlen."

No on Jurrjens (obviously) or Hanson or Maholm, or at least not straight up.
- Delgado....I'd think about that one a lot, though I might be a little worried that he would be another Frankie - just shaky enough control to doom him in this organization. But I'd be tempted.
- Minor - I think I would trade him for Minor straight up. I think he's figured it out. Not a #1 buy, but a solid #3 that they can ride for years.
- Teheran - I know he's more highly regarded, but I wouldn't trade for him right now. I'm worried about him.
- Hudson - I think it's a moot point
- Medlen - Well, sure, duh.

johnnydakota
11-07-2012, 04:07 PM
hanson , juan jaime, and carbrea, then give up a pair of non factor prospects to the angels for wells and 38 million

Steve J
11-07-2012, 04:08 PM
I say yes. Don't see his return getting higher, and we're looking at a logjam in the OF.

jwestbrock
11-07-2012, 04:10 PM
So, only really knowing who is on the Braves 40-man roster and not looking into their farm system since it said "replacement bat," implying someone who can take a roster spot next year, that would leave the options of Martin Prado, Dan Uggla, Andrelton Simmons, Tyler Pastornicky, Ernesto Meija and Paul Janish.

Now assuming a pitcher would come back as well we can eliminate Prado and Simmons from consideration because the only pitchers that the Twins are getting with them are AAAA, 5th starter types. Uggla is in pretty steady decline with the bat and his UZR/150 for his career is -4.5 so he has never been good at 2nd base, now a declining Uggla for one year is better than what is currently on the roster, but he has 3 more years at $13.2 million. So he should be a pass unless as a throw in with a Minor/Medlen/Delgado type pitcher. Pastornicky is Florimon but shakier defensively. Janish is a RH bat in name only and Meija is a 27 year old AAA first baseman. So I don't really know if they are aiming for a RH replacement bat and a pitcher, they may be hard up with the Braves.

ericchri
11-07-2012, 04:13 PM
I think that tweet only suggested the Twins would be worried about replacing the RH bat if they made that move, not that it had to be part of the deal. Seems doubtful they'd get ML ready starting pitching and a ML ready hitter back in return for just him. Willingham seems more likely to be a deadline trade if Plouffe is hitting well and the Twins are out of it, for that reason, due to the uncertainty of having any legit RH in the lineup.

greengoblinrulz
11-07-2012, 04:15 PM
I brought this up a couple months ago & I stick to it.....Dan Uggla (as well as an obvious pitcher back) takes care of the RH hitter.
I am NOT scared off by his 3yr/39m left...esp with Morneau's deal coming off. This team has MLB's weakest middle infield and has for the past decade & refuses to address it.
Uggla was an all star last yr but had his worst statistical year.....86runs(2nd worse) 29doubles, 48XBH (worst ever) 19HR 78RBI(both worst ever) 94BB.....these numbers would make him the best hitting middle infielder since Knoblauch. He had an .803OPS on the road as his struggles were in ATL (.656OPS) & mostly June/July. Strong other 4 months.
He's been criticized for his defense (rightly so) but was excellent last season as ATL had the best team defense in baseball.
We've seen with Willy what can happen when hitters vary from the 'Twins Way' & let them swing for the fences
I am available for criticism on this but absolutely would personally love to get him

TheLeviathan
11-07-2012, 04:16 PM
If they offer one of their guys - you do this and run to the bank. This should be music to any Twins' fans ears.

jianfu
11-07-2012, 04:19 PM
David O' Brian, Braves beat writer for the Atlanta Constitution Journal (https://twitter.com/ajcbraves/status/266288347775909888), says its so. Also adds that the Twins are looking for a RH replacement bat in return.

What say you? Trade Willingham?

If doing so nets them a young, cheap starter to upgrade the rotation now? Absolutely.

Although the "get a replacement RH bat" brings back uncomfortable memories of the logic that led to the Delmon (currently a FA!) trade. Maybe they could strike a deal and then bring back Torii for one last hurrah... Nah.

I get the sense sometimes Ryan just doesn't/won't think two or three moves down the road. They need pitching; they don't have many avenues to get it; if an opportunity comes, I'd prefer they just do so and deal with untied ends later.

Yes, Willingham was fantastic (and healthy) this past year. He probably will be less so next year.

Jim Crikket
11-07-2012, 04:19 PM
First, I'm a little disturbed that getting right-handed power power back would be a deal-breaker, so I'm going to gloss over that.


- Teheran - I know he's more highly regarded, but I wouldn't trade for him right now. I'm worried about him.


Yeah it's a big leap to assume from that little tweet that it means the Twins would need a replacement for Willingham in the Braves deal. It's just stating the obvious, if they trade him, they'll need to replace his bat somehow.

John, what worries you about Teheran? I haven't looked at these guys in depth, but just glancing over them last week I thought he looked like he might be someone worth trying to acquire. What am I missing?

Bark's Lounge
11-07-2012, 04:23 PM
- Minor - I think I would trade him for Minor straight up. I think he's figured it out. Not a #1 buy, but a solid #3 that they can ride for years.
- Medlen - Well, sure, duh.

Totally agree with Mr. Bonnes. If the Twins were able to acquire one of these 2 guys for Willingham straight up... forget "Hammer Time", it's party time for Twins Nation!

jjswol
11-07-2012, 04:37 PM
I would take Hanson, or Delgado, or Minor along with Teheran for Willingham and either Span or Revere. I would pass on Uggla because he makes Plouffe look like Roberto Alomar. I know that means 2 outfielders leaving but getting an opportunity to get two young pitchers like this doesn't happen too often.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 04:44 PM
I cannot see at all that Delgado/Minor/Medlen would go for anything short of a CF replacement.

DOB has been jonesing for Willingham for a long time, and he is a HORRIBLE writer at inserting his views as team views, so unless someone other than DOB put this out with a direct Wren quote, I'd not believe it if I were a Twins fan. Wren seems much, much more concerned about CF right now and will fill that first going by all his interviews this offseason.

greengoblinrulz
11-07-2012, 04:46 PM
I would take Hanson, or Delgado, or Minor along with Teheran for Willingham and either Span or Revere. I would pass on Uggla because he makes Plouffe look like Roberto Alomar. I know that means 2 outfielders leaving but getting an opportunity to get two young pitchers like this doesn't happen too often.
IF you do the Uggla deal for Willy....you could theoretically keep Revere/Span since you will improve your offense/power enough @ 2B to warrant havin a second base hitting type in Revere in LF. Not that you would, but you could.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 04:47 PM
John, what worries you about Teheran? I haven't looked at these guys in depth, but just glancing over them last week I thought he looked like he might be someone worth trying to acquire. What am I missing?

Not John, but as the resident Braves fan, I'll comment that Teheran stalemated at AAA this year after dominating as a 20 year old last year at the same level. He's still got the same upside, but he's shown some personality/attitude stuff that could be concerning. Prospecting types that focus more on stats than scouting have dropped Teheran off the face of the earth. Types that focus more on scouting still have dropped him significantly.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 04:49 PM
I would take Hanson, or Delgado, or Minor along with Teheran for Willingham and either Span or Revere

Hanson and Teheran, possibly, maybe on Delgado/Teheran, and no on Minor/Teheran on likelihood of those happening. And it'd certainly be Span over Revere.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 04:50 PM
- Minor - I think I would trade him for Minor straight up. I think he's figured it out. Not a #1 buy, but a solid #3 that they can ride for years.
- Medlen - Well, sure, duh.

Totally agree with Mr. Bonnes. If the Twins were able to acquire one of these 2 guys for Willingham straight up... forget "Hammer Time", it's party time for Twins Nation!

Can't see either one being available for Willingham alone, however.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-07-2012, 04:54 PM
I would be for trading Willingham if we can get a couple pitchers back in return. One ready now, one in the future.

I would then go out and sign Torii Hunter to a one year contract to bring in a RH bat, take Willinghams spot. A potential OF of Hunter/Span/Revere could be pretty damn amazing defensive wise.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 05:05 PM
I would be for trading Willingham if we can get a couple pitchers back in return. One ready now, one in the future.

I would then go out and sign Torii Hunter to a one year contract to bring in a RH bat, take Willinghams spot. A potential OF of Hunter/Span/Revere could be pretty damn amazing defensive wise.

Unless it's Hanson and someone like Aaron Northcraft, Gary Moran, Gus Schlosser, or David Hale, two pitchers just for Willingham isn't happening.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-07-2012, 05:35 PM
I would be for trading Willingham if we can get a couple pitchers back in return. One ready now, one in the future.

I would then go out and sign Torii Hunter to a one year contract to bring in a RH bat, take Willinghams spot. A potential OF of Hunter/Span/Revere could be pretty damn amazing defensive wise.

Unless it's Hanson and someone like Aaron Northcraft, Gary Moran, Gus Schlosser, or David Hale, two pitchers just for Willingham isn't happening.
I'd do that in a heartbeat. I think Hanson has some great potential and the 2nd guy doesn't have to be a can't miss prospect, just a guy who has a good shot to make a major league rotation in the future.

mike wants wins
11-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Yes, 100% I'd deal him for the guys John said. Yes, 100%. One pitcher is enough, frankly.

Bark's Lounge
11-07-2012, 06:02 PM
- Minor - I think I would trade him for Minor straight up. I think he's figured it out. Not a #1 buy, but a solid #3 that they can ride for years.
- Medlen - Well, sure, duh.

Totally agree with Mr. Bonnes. If the Twins were able to acquire one of these 2 guys for Willingham straight up... forget "Hammer Time", it's party time for Twins Nation!

Can't see either one being available for Willingham alone, however.

I cannot disagree - but it would be nice... for the Twins that is.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 06:05 PM
- Minor - I think I would trade him for Minor straight up. I think he's figured it out. Not a #1 buy, but a solid #3 that they can ride for years.
- Medlen - Well, sure, duh.

Totally agree with Mr. Bonnes. If the Twins were able to acquire one of these 2 guys for Willingham straight up... forget "Hammer Time", it's party time for Twins Nation!

Can't see either one being available for Willingham alone, however.

I cannot disagree - but it would be nice... for the Twins that is.

Yeah, just that Medlen has replaced Vizcaino in the "Four Horsemen" of the Braves that will take an incredible deal to pry away - Medlen, Minor, Delgado, and Teheran.

JP3700
11-07-2012, 06:13 PM
I would take Hanson, or Delgado, or Minor along with Teheran for Willingham and either Span or Revere

Hanson and Teheran, possibly, maybe on Delgado/Teheran, and no on Minor/Teheran on likelihood of those happening. And it'd certainly be Span over Revere.

If we can get two pitchers back, I would definitely approve trading Span and Willingham. It would make a lot of sense financially for the Braves.

I like Hanson but he has horrible mechanics and has lost close to 4 MPH from his fastball in the last 2 years. I think he's worth the gamble but there's a lot of risk there. Braves fans are worried about him being the next Jurrjens. I'd prefer Teheran over Delgado because of the higher ceiling but I would take either one as the other pitcher.

To replace Willingham's power you can sign Jonny Gomes .262/.377/.491 this past season in Oakland. He has severe splits but you can have Gomes, Parmelee, Morneau and Doumit for 1B/LF/DH/Bench bat. Move Revere to CF and sign a 1 year RF: Melky Cabrera or Grady Sizemore, Nate McLouth, Nate Schierholtz platooned with Mastroianni.

Good core of young pitchers: Teheran, Gibson, Diamond, Hanson, Hendriks

John Bonnes
11-07-2012, 06:17 PM
I cannot see at all that Delgado/Minor/Medlen would go for anything short of a CF replacement.

DOB has been jonesing for Willingham for a long time, and he is a HORRIBLE writer at inserting his views as team views, so unless someone other than DOB put this out with a direct Wren quote, I'd not believe it if I were a Twins fan. Wren seems much, much more concerned about CF right now and will fill that first going by all his interviews this offseason.

Really good insight on David O'Brien, Ben. Thanks. And it's great that you are able to respond to some of these questions.

It's worth noting on similar threads. It might pay when there is a thread involving another team that we reach out to any fans/writers of that team with a link to give their thoughts.

Fire Dan Gladden
11-07-2012, 06:24 PM
Ummm.. who wouldn't be interested in Willingham at this point. High production that comes cheap over the next 2 years.

Thrylos
11-07-2012, 06:25 PM
I think that the Twins should buy low and sell high:

see if they can pry Delgado and one of Andrelton Simmons or Tyler Pastornicky (the latter probably more likely at this point), even if they have to throw someone like Carroll or one of the AAAA middle infielders they have. They got to think intermediate term at this point (2014-2015)

twinsnorth49
11-07-2012, 06:39 PM
Now's the time to move Willingham, not sure why the Braves would want to give away what's being suggested here but if's even close, TR should do it.

If they want a CF, we have one of those too.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 09:53 PM
I think that the Twins should buy low and sell high:

see if they can pry Delgado and one of Andrelton Simmons or Tyler Pastornicky (the latter probably more likely at this point), even if they have to throw someone like Carroll or one of the AAAA middle infielders they have. They got to think intermediate term at this point (2014-2015)

I really hope you're kidding. Simmons is probably the 2nd or 3rd most unmovable player on the Braves. Behind Heyward and maybe Freeman. No way would Simmons move for anyone short of a superstar. The only trade rumor where he's been mentioned without it being laughable is for Justin Upton.

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 10:09 PM
I would take Hanson, or Delgado, or Minor along with Teheran for Willingham and either Span or Revere

Hanson and Teheran, possibly, maybe on Delgado/Teheran, and no on Minor/Teheran on likelihood of those happening. And it'd certainly be Span over Revere.

If we can get two pitchers back, I would definitely approve trading Span and Willingham. It would make a lot of sense financially for the Braves.

I like Hanson but he has horrible mechanics and has lost close to 4 MPH from his fastball in the last 2 years. I think he's worth the gamble but there's a lot of risk there. Braves fans are worried about him being the next Jurrjens. I'd prefer Teheran over Delgado because of the higher ceiling but I would take either one as the other pitcher.

To replace Willingham's power you can sign Jonny Gomes .262/.377/.491 this past season in Oakland. He has severe splits but you can have Gomes, Parmelee, Morneau and Doumit for 1B/LF/DH/Bench bat. Move Revere to CF and sign a 1 year RF: Melky Cabrera or Grady Sizemore, Nate McLouth, Nate Schierholtz platooned with Mastroianni.

Good core of young pitchers: Teheran, Gibson, Diamond, Hanson, Hendriks

On Hanson - I've not heard Braves fans on any of the team forums I frequent compare him at all to Jurrjens. Hanson's mechanics are what they are, no argument there, but the MPH off his fastball were as much an organizational focus as any issue with Hanson. He has had some very sideways quotes on the method of working in a hard two-seamer rather than his four-seamer. Brandon Beachy bought into the program hard, and he had phenomenal success. His barely-used arm succumbed to the rampant use of the last couple of years. Hanson could mostly use a change of scenery, not because he's a bad apple, but because he's not pitching to his strength. I've felt through the whole year that attempting to create sink in his motion slowed his arm action. I don't have the technology to prove it, but I believe that 1. he lost velocity because of the new pitch strategy, and 2. he had a tip when he threw his four-seamer, which often rode up high in the zone. Basically, following the Bauer thread, it's a very similar case with Hanson. I think he's still got a ton of value, but you can't sell a pitcher with an ERA like he carried and sell him as an ace.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-07-2012, 10:10 PM
I brought this up a couple months ago & I stick to it.....Dan Uggla (as well as an obvious pitcher back) takes care of the RH hitter.
I am NOT scared off by his 3yr/39m left...esp with Morneau's deal coming off. This team has MLB's weakest middle infield and has for the past decade & refuses to address it.
Uggla was an all star last yr but had his worst statistical year.....86runs(2nd worse) 29doubles, 48XBH (worst ever) 19HR 78RBI(both worst ever) 94BB.....these numbers would make him the best hitting middle infielder since Knoblauch. He had an .803OPS on the road as his struggles were in ATL (.656OPS) & mostly June/July. Strong other 4 months.
He's been criticized for his defense (rightly so) but was excellent last season as ATL had the best team defense in baseball.
We've seen with Willy what can happen when hitters vary from the 'Twins Way' & let them swing for the fences
I am available for criticism on this but absolutely would personally love to get him

That's a great idea gg. Uggla+a young pitcher

biggentleben
11-07-2012, 10:21 PM
I cannot see at all that Delgado/Minor/Medlen would go for anything short of a CF replacement.

DOB has been jonesing for Willingham for a long time, and he is a HORRIBLE writer at inserting his views as team views, so unless someone other than DOB put this out with a direct Wren quote, I'd not believe it if I were a Twins fan. Wren seems much, much more concerned about CF right now and will fill that first going by all his interviews this offseason.

Really good insight on David O'Brien, Ben. Thanks. And it's great that you are able to respond to some of these questions.

It's worth noting on similar threads. It might pay when there is a thread involving another team that we reach out to any fans/writers of that team with a link to give their thoughts.

No problem! And thanks!

I'm honestly not a huge fan of the two major Braves beat writers, O'Brien with the Atlanta Journal Constitution and Mark Bowden through mlb.com. DOB tends to be way too much sunshine and abhorrence for statistics. Bowden is anti-everything. I'd prefer a more fair and balanced view on the team.

JP3700
11-07-2012, 11:00 PM
On Hanson - I've not heard Braves fans on any of the team forums I frequent compare him at all to Jurrjens. Hanson's mechanics are what they are, no argument there, but the MPH off his fastball were as much an organizational focus as any issue with Hanson. He has had some very sideways quotes on the method of working in a hard two-seamer rather than his four-seamer. Brandon Beachy bought into the program hard, and he had phenomenal success. His barely-used arm succumbed to the rampant use of the last couple of years. Hanson could mostly use a change of scenery, not because he's a bad apple, but because he's not pitching to his strength. I've felt through the whole year that attempting to create sink in his motion slowed his arm action. I don't have the technology to prove it, but I believe that 1. he lost velocity because of the new pitch strategy, and 2. he had a tip when he threw his four-seamer, which often rode up high in the zone. Basically, following the Bauer thread, it's a very similar case with Hanson. I think he's still got a ton of value, but you can't sell a pitcher with an ERA like he carried and sell him as an ace.

Here's a Link (http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/10/11/3487978/atlanta-braves-off-season-questions-part-4-whos-in-the-rotation?) to an article mostly about Hanson.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 04:05 PM
On Hanson - I've not heard Braves fans on any of the team forums I frequent compare him at all to Jurrjens. Hanson's mechanics are what they are, no argument there, but the MPH off his fastball were as much an organizational focus as any issue with Hanson. He has had some very sideways quotes on the method of working in a hard two-seamer rather than his four-seamer. Brandon Beachy bought into the program hard, and he had phenomenal success. His barely-used arm succumbed to the rampant use of the last couple of years. Hanson could mostly use a change of scenery, not because he's a bad apple, but because he's not pitching to his strength. I've felt through the whole year that attempting to create sink in his motion slowed his arm action. I don't have the technology to prove it, but I believe that 1. he lost velocity because of the new pitch strategy, and 2. he had a tip when he threw his four-seamer, which often rode up high in the zone. Basically, following the Bauer thread, it's a very similar case with Hanson. I think he's still got a ton of value, but you can't sell a pitcher with an ERA like he carried and sell him as an ace.

Here's a Link (http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/10/11/3487978/atlanta-braves-off-season-questions-part-4-whos-in-the-rotation?) to an article mostly about Hanson.

Yep, I know gondeee's viewpoints quite well. He's always been very anti-Hanson and very alarmist about him, suggesting in 2009 that JA Happ was by far the better long term pitcher. He's is VERY against Hanson's motion, so he weighs things that way. But even in that article, he didn't directly compare it to Jurrjens - which it isn't at all. Jurrjens never had velocity. He just forgot how to hit the strike zone. He said it could end up a similar situation - a high paid player who isn't good enough to be in the rotation anymore, much like Derek Lowe, Kenshin Kawakami, and Jair Jurrjens have been in the last 3 years. For the Braves, that could simply be because they have better rotation options, frankly, not because of anything wrong with Hanson.

ericchri
11-08-2012, 04:08 PM
Just for fun, read the comments to this thread from the Braves fan perspective. If Twins fans and Braves fans were allowed to make trades for the teams...

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/07/braves-might-trade-pitching-for-lineup-needs/

gil4
11-08-2012, 04:12 PM
"The Twins are looking for a RH replacement bat in return."


I'm torn on this:


Pro:


1. Selling high

2. He's getting old

3. He has an injury history

4. He's a defensive liability (not in the D-Young class, but not great)



Con:

1. He was healthy last year
2. When he's healthy, the man can hit
3. I don't trust TR to get value on a straight challenge trade
4. Why trade a RH bat who came here voluntarily for a RH bat that didn't?
5. Is Atlanta still a hitter's park? I know Target Field evened out somewhat last year. I'd be concerned about overrating their hitters vs. ours because of park factors.

I'd rather get a pitcher, unless the Braves surprise us with the offer.

PseudoSABR
11-08-2012, 04:20 PM
Here's the tweet, Parker misrepresents the part about needing a RH bat in return a bit.

#Braves (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Braves&src=hash) would also have interest in LF Willingham, but #Twins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Twins&src=hash) at this point seem unlikely to trade, would need to replace RH bat in lineup

Big City
11-08-2012, 04:39 PM
Yes to Medlan, Minor, or Hanson. Yes, to Delgado if they included another pitcher prospect like Gilmartin or Graham. I think Ryan's just leveraging Span more by demanding a RH bat in return so, since the Braves can't provide it they'll have to settle on Span. This is a deal that needs to get done though, even if we do trade Willingham. What about signing Cody Ross to replace Willingham?

Parker Hageman
11-08-2012, 04:49 PM
Here's the tweet, Parker misrepresents the part about needing a RH bat in return a bit.

Fixed.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 04:53 PM
Just for fun, read the comments to this thread from the Braves fan perspective. If Twins fans and Braves fans were allowed to make trades for the teams...

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/11/07/braves-might-trade-pitching-for-lineup-needs/

AJC comments make STrib comments look very intelligent.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 04:56 PM
5. Is Atlanta still a hitter's park? I know Target Field evened out somewhat last year. I'd be concerned about overrating their hitters vs. ours because of park factors.

Turner Field is considered the most neutral park in baseball over long-term results.

There's not a hitter involved here. The Braves would be moving pitching for Willingham, then the Twins would need to get another RH bat. That's what the tweet said.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Yes to Medlan, Minor, or Hanson. Yes, to Delgado if they included another pitcher prospect like Gilmartin or Graham. I think Ryan's just leveraging Span more by demanding a RH bat in return so, since the Braves can't provide it they'll have to settle on Span. This is a deal that needs to get done though, even if we do trade Willingham. What about signing Cody Ross to replace Willingham?

Wow. You really think they'd include one of the top 3-5 prospects in their system along with their most proven rookie arm for Willingham? Not so much.

JP3700
11-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Here's a Link (http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/10/11/3487978/atlanta-braves-off-season-questions-part-4-whos-in-the-rotation?) to an article mostly about Hanson.

Yep, I know gondeee's viewpoints quite well. He's always been very anti-Hanson and very alarmist about him, suggesting in 2009 that JA Happ was by far the better long term pitcher. He's is VERY against Hanson's motion, so he weighs things that way. But even in that article, he didn't directly compare it to Jurrjens - which it isn't at all. Jurrjens never had velocity. He just forgot how to hit the strike zone. He said it could end up a similar situation - a high paid player who isn't good enough to be in the rotation anymore, much like Derek Lowe, Kenshin Kawakami, and Jair Jurrjens have been in the last 3 years. For the Braves, that could simply be because they have better rotation options, frankly, not because of anything wrong with Hanson.

Jurrjens had plenty of velocity. He use to be 91-93, topping out at 96. Now he's 88-90 topping out at 92. Here's his PitchFx (http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=5556&position=P) page.

There is a pretty solid comparison there considering the velocity drops and injuries. Jurrjens' knee and Hanson's shoulder. I wouldn't mind gambling on Hanson, but there's high risk there.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 05:08 PM
Here's a Link (http://www.talkingchop.com/2012/10/11/3487978/atlanta-braves-off-season-questions-part-4-whos-in-the-rotation?) to an article mostly about Hanson.

Yep, I know gondeee's viewpoints quite well. He's always been very anti-Hanson and very alarmist about him, suggesting in 2009 that JA Happ was by far the better long term pitcher. He's is VERY against Hanson's motion, so he weighs things that way. But even in that article, he didn't directly compare it to Jurrjens - which it isn't at all. Jurrjens never had velocity. He just forgot how to hit the strike zone. He said it could end up a similar situation - a high paid player who isn't good enough to be in the rotation anymore, much like Derek Lowe, Kenshin Kawakami, and Jair Jurrjens have been in the last 3 years. For the Braves, that could simply be because they have better rotation options, frankly, not because of anything wrong with Hanson.

Jurrjens had plenty of velocity. He use to be 91-93, topping out at 96. Now he's 88-90 topping out at 92. Here's his PitchFx (http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=5556&position=P) page.

There is a pretty solid comparison there considering the velocity drops and injuries. Jurrjens' knee and Hanson's shoulder. I wouldn't mind gambling on Hanson, but there's high risk there.

Jurrjens was still quite effective at lower velocity along as he was precise with his command. He was a mid 6 k/9 guy, so his stuff was never swing and miss. Hanson has relied on swing and miss, so it's a very different thing.

JP3700
11-08-2012, 05:42 PM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.

Willihammer
11-08-2012, 07:23 PM
The Braves also have Simmons backing up Pastornicky at SS. That guy can flash some leather.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 07:38 PM
The Braves also have Simmons backing up Pastornicky at SS. That guy can flash some leather.

Um, no, Simmons is the starter and nearly the most untouchable player on the Braves.

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 07:41 PM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.

Only thing is Burton doesn't carry much value with a full bullpen already, at least not enough to include two prospects. If they were going to do something with a guy like Carroll, they'd just use Janish or Pastornicky. Value-wise, it'd be even, but it doesn't match up with the Braves' needs.

PseudoSABR
11-08-2012, 09:09 PM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.Seems pretty awful for the Braves. They get Span and crap.

TheLeviathan
11-08-2012, 09:11 PM
The only thing that deal is missing is Brian Duensing to really cement it in the "I'm just making this stupid suggestion for laughs" category.

johnnydakota
11-08-2012, 09:21 PM
I brought this up a couple months ago & I stick to it.....Dan Uggla (as well as an obvious pitcher back) takes care of the RH hitter.
I am NOT scared off by his 3yr/39m left...esp with Morneau's deal coming off. This team has MLB's weakest middle infield and has for the past decade & refuses to address it.
Uggla was an all star last yr but had his worst statistical year.....86runs(2nd worse) 29doubles, 48XBH (worst ever) 19HR 78RBI(both worst ever) 94BB.....these numbers would make him the best hitting middle infielder since Knoblauch. He had an .803OPS on the road as his struggles were in ATL (.656OPS) & mostly June/July. Strong other 4 months.
He's been criticized for his defense (rightly so) but was excellent last season as ATL had the best team defense in baseball.
We've seen with Willy what can happen when hitters vary from the 'Twins Way' & let them swing for the fences
I am available for criticism on this but absolutely would personally love to get him
well uggla and florimon just might make cy young look like nick blackburn

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 09:28 PM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.Seems pretty awful for the Braves. They get Span and crap.

I was trying to be nice :p

biggentleben
11-08-2012, 10:01 PM
From MLBTR today:

The Braves are looking at center field options to replace Michael Bourn and the Twins' Denard Span "is likely high on the list of potential trade target," writes David O'Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. The Braves and Twins match up well as trade partners, as Minnesota is desperate for pitching and Atlanta is one of the few teams with available young arms. The Braves "havenít entirely given up" on re-signing Bourn, but the club is unlikely to match the demands from Bourn and agent Scott Boras.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/nl-east-notes-span-hamilton-wright-upton.html#dMfMDqeCqLOO1dbk.99

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.

So we give them a bunch a guys we signed last offseason and Span? Seems a little crooked and the Braves would hang up quick.

JP3700
11-09-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm not going to argue with any of the rude replies to a question where I specifically asked one person, but just know that there was a thought process to my question.

-Denard Span is obvious so I'll skip why he was involved.

-Brian McCann had shoulder surgery and will miss significant time. The Braves have a need at C and are looking at David Ross (their backup from 2012) who will cost similar to what Doumit is making. On top of this McCann is a free agent after the season and the Braves might not be able to afford him considering they have to pay Prado, Heyward and Freeman. Doumit would be a decent stop gap for Christian Bethancourt as Doumit is signed through 2014.

-The Braves have Juan Francisco to play 3B who has 20+ HR power and hits RH pitching well, but is brutal against LH pitching. Carroll had an .839 OPS against LH pitching in 2012. The $2 million added makes him only cost $1.75 and there were already reports that the Braves were looking for a backup middle infielder.

-The Braves have a strong bullpen, but their late inning guys are O'Flaherty and Venters who are both lefties. Durbin was their righty and he's a FA so Burton would not only replace him, but be an upgrade.

As for the return..

-Delgado is the centerpiece

-Hanson's value has significantly dropped with his drop in velocity and poor 2012. Sure the Braves would be selling low, but they may be wary of investing $4 million on a guy who could fall off the map like Jurrjens did.. Obviously I could be wrong on them selling low, but if you read the article I linked above there are opinions that Hanson could only get a "promising bullpen arm" now.

-Ahmed is blocked by Simmons and isn't that highly regarded anyway. Similar to Brian Dozier: no tools that stand out but does a lot of things right.

-Hale is a borderline top 20 prospect in their organization. he's 25 and hasn't pitched an inning past AA, so instead of asking for Sprull or Graham I added him.

Like I mentioned, it was just fun to ask. But instead of just reading names and assuming it's a bad trade, do some research and realize there was a thought process.. Thanks.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-09-2012, 12:30 AM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.

Only thing is Burton doesn't carry much value with a full bullpen already, at least not enough to include two prospects. If they were going to do something with a guy like Carroll, they'd just use Janish or Pastornicky. Value-wise, it'd be even, but it doesn't match up with the Braves' needs.

Is that TRULY even Value wise? Burton and Carroll have like zero trade value to be honest, and Doumit, while a nice player is much better suited for the AL these days as he would not be an every day guy in the NL.

biggentleben
11-09-2012, 12:39 AM
-Hanson's value has significantly dropped with his drop in velocity and poor 2012. Sure the Braves would be selling low, but they may be wary of investing $4 million on a guy who could fall off the map like Jurrjens did.. Obviously I could be wrong on them selling low, but if you read the article I linked above there are opinions that Hanson could only get a "promising bullpen arm" now.

-Ahmed is blocked by Simmons and isn't that highly regarded anyway. Similar to Brian Dozier: no tools that stand out but does a lot of things right.

Those were the two that made it a no-go in my book actually. Like I said earlier, consider the source on the article you posted. The Braves have actually refused him media credentials in the past, despite having one of the 2-3 longest running Braves blogs/forums on the internet. Multiple blogs that have started up in the last two years have received those same credentials. The Braves still value Hanson fairly high, and all reports from inside and outside the organization is that there is a lot of high-level interest in him.

Ahmed is probably not going to achieve MLB status until he's 25ish, but he's someone that the organization regards very highly. According to rumors, he was part of the reason for backing out of one deadline deal this year. He's what would seem like a perfect future utility guy, and it's highly doubtful that the Braves will consider moving him until he fails a level. He made a big jump (2 levels) this year and held his own. I'd wager he'll go up step by step from here, but he's very highly regarded by the organization, so he's going to be tough to get involved in a deal.

I guess from the upside/downside for both players, I've thought Hanson/Span makes way too much sense for both teams for it not to get done.

biggentleben
11-09-2012, 12:43 AM
Biggentleben, as a Braves fan what do you think of this trade..

Denard Span, Ryan Doumit, Jamey Carroll, Jared Burton and $2 million cash for Randall Delgado, Tommy Hanson, Nick Ahmed and David Hale

Prado in LF, Span in CF
Doumit catches til McCann is back and can play LF with moving Prado to 3B
Francisco at 3B vs. RH and Carroll vs. LH + Utility IF
Burton as the late inning RH to Kimbrel.
Leaves plenty of money to sign a Sanchez, Jackson or Marcum type pitcher and extensions for Prado and Heyward.

Seem pretty fair? Just fun to think about.

Only thing is Burton doesn't carry much value with a full bullpen already, at least not enough to include two prospects. If they were going to do something with a guy like Carroll, they'd just use Janish or Pastornicky. Value-wise, it'd be even, but it doesn't match up with the Braves' needs.

Is that TRULY even Value wise? Burton and Carroll have like zero trade value to be honest, and Doumit, while a nice player is much better suited for the AL these days as he would not be an every day guy in the NL.

Player-wise, no, but you have to realize the tight finances that the Braves in and how important cash would be to them. That said, all four guys the Twins would give up have proven to some level their performance expectation at the MLB level. Hanson is the only one who has enough track record for that on the Braves side. I just don't see it working for the reasons I mentioned just a post ago.

JP3700
11-09-2012, 12:52 AM
-Hanson's value has significantly dropped with his drop in velocity and poor 2012. Sure the Braves would be selling low, but they may be wary of investing $4 million on a guy who could fall off the map like Jurrjens did.. Obviously I could be wrong on them selling low, but if you read the article I linked above there are opinions that Hanson could only get a "promising bullpen arm" now.

-Ahmed is blocked by Simmons and isn't that highly regarded anyway. Similar to Brian Dozier: no tools that stand out but does a lot of things right.

Those were the two that made it a no-go in my book actually. Like I said earlier, consider the source on the article you posted. The Braves have actually refused him media credentials in the past, despite having one of the 2-3 longest running Braves blogs/forums on the internet. Multiple blogs that have started up in the last two years have received those same credentials. The Braves still value Hanson fairly high, and all reports from inside and outside the organization is that there is a lot of high-level interest in him.

Ahmed is probably not going to achieve MLB status until he's 25ish, but he's someone that the organization regards very highly. According to rumors, he was part of the reason for backing out of one deadline deal this year. He's what would seem like a perfect future utility guy, and it's highly doubtful that the Braves will consider moving him until he fails a level. He made a big jump (2 levels) this year and held his own. I'd wager he'll go up step by step from here, but he's very highly regarded by the organization, so he's going to be tough to get involved in a deal.

I guess from the upside/downside for both players, I've thought Hanson/Span makes way too much sense for both teams for it not to get done.

Fair enough, appreciate the response. That's why I specifically asked you. You obviously follow the Braves, so you'd have a better grasp of what they'd be willing to do. I just didn't appreciate the posts that made it seem like a completely unreasonable trade without thought. Especially from people I didn't ask, nor have a grasp of Atlanta's needs as a team.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
11-09-2012, 01:49 AM
-Hanson's value has significantly dropped with his drop in velocity and poor 2012. Sure the Braves would be selling low, but they may be wary of investing $4 million on a guy who could fall off the map like Jurrjens did.. Obviously I could be wrong on them selling low, but if you read the article I linked above there are opinions that Hanson could only get a "promising bullpen arm" now.

-Ahmed is blocked by Simmons and isn't that highly regarded anyway. Similar to Brian Dozier: no tools that stand out but does a lot of things right.

Those were the two that made it a no-go in my book actually. Like I said earlier, consider the source on the article you posted. The Braves have actually refused him media credentials in the past, despite having one of the 2-3 longest running Braves blogs/forums on the internet. Multiple blogs that have started up in the last two years have received those same credentials. The Braves still value Hanson fairly high, and all reports from inside and outside the organization is that there is a lot of high-level interest in him.

Ahmed is probably not going to achieve MLB status until he's 25ish, but he's someone that the organization regards very highly. According to rumors, he was part of the reason for backing out of one deadline deal this year. He's what would seem like a perfect future utility guy, and it's highly doubtful that the Braves will consider moving him until he fails a level. He made a big jump (2 levels) this year and held his own. I'd wager he'll go up step by step from here, but he's very highly regarded by the organization, so he's going to be tough to get involved in a deal.

I guess from the upside/downside for both players, I've thought Hanson/Span makes way too much sense for both teams for it not to get done.

Fair enough, appreciate the response. That's why I specifically asked you. You obviously follow the Braves, so you'd have a better grasp of what they'd be willing to do. I just didn't appreciate the posts that made it seem like a completely unreasonable trade without thought. Especially from people I didn't ask, nor have a grasp of Atlanta's needs as a team.

This is a public thread that you didn't start so what did you expect? Everyone has a right to say something. There is a direct message option available with the site if you want to talk privately to a user. But, now I know never to reply to your posts/blogs because you probably won't 'appreciate' criticism from someone as you implied being stupid. It's pretty snooty of you to think people that don't follow the Braves don't understand what they need and how trade value works. The Twins and Braves have been linked for the past year in many trade talks and most of the users here are familiar with their needs, the Rangers needs, and the Rays team needs.

Willihammer
11-09-2012, 08:35 AM
Um, no, Simmons is the starter and nearly the most untouchable player on the Braves.

Pastornicky?

biggentleben
11-09-2012, 09:59 AM
Um, no, Simmons is the starter and nearly the most untouchable player on the Braves.

Pastornicky?

What about him? He's been a bench player since May. The only reason Simmons didn't make more starts at short was an injury after he came up. He would have beat out Brendan Ryan for the Fielding Bible Awards had that injury not happened. Heck, Pastornicky didn't even lead the team in starts at shortstop in 2012, he was third behind Paul Janish and Andrelton Simmons.

TheLeviathan
11-09-2012, 03:51 PM
This is a public thread that you didn't start so what did you expect?.

This. Plus....that ridiculous trade that was posted had research behind it? Holy gods, I'm not sure which is worse: being made that you were responded to publicly on a public forum or that god-awful proposal was thought-out.