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Seth Stohs
11-01-2012, 12:17 PM
You'll want to read Part 1 and Part 2 as well, but in Part 3, PHIL makes a few reasonable moves and shows what that could mean for the Twins. A couple of smart moves and some improvements by key young players and it feels realistic.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/How_to_fix_the_Twins_Part_3_Could_Braves_Rays_be_g ood_trade_fits103112

mikeee
11-01-2012, 01:48 PM
He seems pretty optimistic if the moves are made.

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 02:07 PM
Span for Mike Minor seems pretty wishful to me.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:01 PM
Span for Mike Minor seems pretty wishful to me.

It's apparent you don't think much of Span, which is probably where the disconnect is. Span was rated as the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball by the voters giving the Fielding Bible awards and he's a pretty darn good leadoff guy who sees a lot of pitches and has a team friendly contract. I guess some of us feel there's more value there than you think there is.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-01-2012, 03:03 PM
Span for Minor: Why exactly would the Braves make this trade?
Marcum for 6 mil a year for 2 years? That is extremely wishful thinking, Marcum is one of the top 3 or 4 pitchers on the market. He is going to get paid.

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 03:03 PM
Span for Mike Minor seems pretty wishful to me.

It's apparent you don't think much of Span, which is probably where the disconnect is. Span was rated as the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball by the voters giving the Fielding Bible awards and he's a pretty darn good leadoff guy who sees a lot of pitches and has a team friendly contract. I guess some of us feel there's more value there than you think there is.I see a lot of value, just not as much as a starting pitcher who's been healthy, under twenty five, and under team control for four years.

Span's health issues do play a big part in my view of his ability to fetch a return, which is something I think we've been understating.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:05 PM
Span for Minor: Why exactly would the Braves make this trade?
Marcum for 6 mil a year for 2 years? That is extremely wishful thinking, Marcum is one of the top 3 or 4 pitchers on the market. He is going to get paid.

Who is playing CF for Atlanta next year? Any idea?

Alex
11-01-2012, 03:10 PM
Well, if rumors are true and Span has been shopped around, the rest of the league doesn't value Span as highly as the Twins do. My guess is if they could/can get starting pitching for him they will pull the trigger. I personally agree with PseudoSABR, that that kind of player is a major reach for Span.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:10 PM
Span for Mike Minor seems pretty wishful to me.

It's apparent you don't think much of Span, which is probably where the disconnect is. Span was rated as the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball by the voters giving the Fielding Bible awards and he's a pretty darn good leadoff guy who sees a lot of pitches and has a team friendly contract. I guess some of us feel there's more value there than you think there is.I see a lot of value, just not as much as a starting pitcher who's been healthy, under twenty five, and under team control for four years.

Span's health issues do play a big part in my view of his ability to fetch a return, which is something I think we've been understating.

That pitcher also hasn't done a whole lot yet at the major league level...none of his major league numbers really stand out especially when you consider he's an NL pitcher. And pitching is an area of strength for the team. I understand there's a lot of hype around him, based on him being a #7 pick and some of his minor league numbers, but we still don't know for sure how good he'll be here.

Me, personally, I don't see if happening either, but I don't think it's far-fetched.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:11 PM
Well, if rumors are true and Span has been shopped around, the rest of the league doesn't value Span as highly as the Twins do. My guess is if they could/can get starting pitching for him they will pull the trigger. I personally agree with PseudoSABR, that that kind of player is a major reach for Span.

Or the Twins are doing what they always do WAY overvaluing their trade chips...

Willihammer
11-01-2012, 03:16 PM
The most team friendly part of Span's team-friendly contract has passed. For comparison, the Rays are getting about 1 Win/$1m spent on their core players. Unless you think Span is going to rattle off 10 wins in the next two seasons, he'll probably need to be packaged with someone else or cash to get a decent SP in return, esp. one who is young and/or relatively cheap. That is before even considering things like his concussion issues or age.

Boom Boom
11-01-2012, 03:19 PM
He's got Dozier starting at 2B and getting 450 PAs and Florimon starting at SS and getting 340 PAs... but no new middle infielders.

John Bonnes
11-01-2012, 03:20 PM
I thought this was really well done. It doesn't shy away from details and throws in enough sabr math to support the conclusions without going overboard. I also think he's probably a little low on the cost of Marcum, but he has room to go higher. Mike Minor might be a reach for Span, but he might not, and he gives some other names worth considering from Atlanta.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:23 PM
The most team friendly part of Span's team-friendly contract has passed. For comparison, the Rays are getting about 1 Win/$1m spent on their core players. Unless you think Span is going to rattle off 10 wins in the next two seasons, he'll probably need to be packaged with someone else or cash to get a decent SP in return, esp. one who is young and/or relatively cheap. That is before even considering things like his concussion issues or age.

His age being all of 29...

Okay...so...let's say they don't want to use Jennings in CF, which FA CF is gonna be cheaper than Span over the next two years who is also younger and fits their leadoff needs?

BTW, I also mentioned Revere at the beginning of all this...

TheLeviathan
11-01-2012, 03:43 PM
Okay...so...let's say they don't want to use Jennings in CF, which FA CF is gonna be cheaper than Span over the next two years who is also younger and fits their leadoff needs?

BTW, I also mentioned Revere at the beginning of all this...

So first to back up your point you make an assumption that is extremely favorable to your viewpoint? Cmon. The Rays have never acted in a way that is restricted by such limited, conventional thinking. They won't be taken to the woodshed in a Span deal because of some perceived "need" for a certain type of player at one position. Leadoff hitters don't have to play CF - they can address their OBP needs in other ways without Span. Your entire premise in this thread is built on the idea that we have Tampa right where we want them. That's hardly the case. The deal makes some sense for both sides and is worth exploring, but it is a bit far fetched to think you'll land Shields for Span. Just as it is that you'll land a top SP prospect for him.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:47 PM
So first to back up your point you make an assumption that is extremely favorable to your viewpoint? Cmon. The Rays have never acted in a way that is restricted by such limited, conventional thinking. They won't be taken to the woodshed in a Span deal because of some perceived "need" for a certain type of player at one position. Leadoff hitters don't have to play CF - they can address their OBP needs in other ways without Span. Your entire premise in this thread is built on the idea that we have Tampa right where we want them. That's hardly the case. The deal makes some sense for both sides and is worth exploring, but it is a bit far fetched to think you'll land Shields for Span. Just as it is that you'll land a top SP prospect for him.

Okay..I never said that the CF had to be a leadoff guy...just that they need a CF and a leadoff guy and him being able to do both works in his value...and I never said we have them right where we want them, just that it makes a lot of sense for both sides because of the things TB is looking to address...

And, as John Bonnes already stated, 'Jason Collette, who I trust, says the Rays are almost undoubtedly going to be interested in acquiring a CFer this year. He wouldn't rule out a Shields for Span deal, straight up. '

Now, maybe the guy I asked will answer the question...since it was about value...

Brandon
11-01-2012, 03:58 PM
He's got Dozier starting at 2B and getting 450 PAs and Florimon starting at SS and getting 340 PAs... but no new middle infielders.

I don't have them doing anything there either this offseason as I believe their goal of solid defense is in place and will suffice for now. Once they know what they have for pitching next year and see how Arcia, Hicks, and Parmalee develop I can see one of them being traded either in July next year or next offseason for a SS.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 04:00 PM
He's got Dozier starting at 2B and getting 450 PAs and Florimon starting at SS and getting 340 PAs... but no new middle infielders.

I don't have them doing anything there either this offseason as I believe their goal of solid defense is in place and will suffice for now. Once they know what they have for pitching next year and see how Arcia, Hicks, and Parmalee develop I can see one of them being traded either in July next year or next offseason for a SS.

Do you believe having Dozier at 2B and Florimon at shortstop gives us solid defense?

JP3700
11-01-2012, 04:42 PM
I don't see why people undervalue Span so much here. He's a 2-4 win player at a minimum. If you include his option he's slated to make $20 million in the next 3 years. Angel Pagan is going to cost around 5 years, $60 million. Which player/contract would you choose? His health issue was due to a concussion in 2011 that didn't affect him all of 2012. He hurt his shoulder on a diving catch in 2012, it's not like he has a lingering injury that he can't seem to get over.

I think people feel his value is low because he hasn't been traded yet. I feel that's due to the Twins asking for too much, not teams undervaluing him.

Seth Stohs
11-01-2012, 05:06 PM
Do you believe having Dozier at 2B and Florimon at shortstop gives us solid defense?

I do, especially when you've got Jamey Carroll playing as much at the two positions.

SpiritofVodkaDave
11-01-2012, 05:14 PM
I don't see why people undervalue Span so much here. He's a 2-4 win player at a minimum. If you include his option he's slated to make $20 million in the next 3 years. Angel Pagan is going to cost around 5 years, $60 million. Which player/contract would you choose? .
What a terrible example.

I'd also prefer that contract over Vernon Wells, Werth etc etc

JP3700
11-01-2012, 05:42 PM
I don't see why people undervalue Span so much here. He's a 2-4 win player at a minimum. If you include his option he's slated to make $20 million in the next 3 years. Angel Pagan is going to cost around 5 years, $60 million. Which player/contract would you choose? .
What a terrible example.

I'd also prefer that contract over Vernon Wells, Werth etc etc

I was comparing two center fielders with similar skill sets and value. One is a free agent and the other is available via trade.

Then you venture off to two corner outfielders that have nothing to do with Span's value in a trade. Yet you call my example terrible?

TheLeviathan
11-01-2012, 07:06 PM
just that it makes a lot of sense for both sides because of the things TB is looking to address...

There are plenty of ways they could address things. They could put Jennings in CF and look for another OF to bat leadoff. There are a multitude of ways any team could do things.

You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day. Span is a player with concussion issues who is very solid, but unspectacular. You're not going to get anyone's prime trade bait with him alone. If Ryan pulls that off, great, but attacking anyone that questions that kind of speculation has plenty of flaws too.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 09:10 PM
just that it makes a lot of sense for both sides because of the things TB is looking to address...

There are plenty of ways they could address things. They could put Jennings in CF and look for another OF to bat leadoff. There are a multitude of ways any team could do things.

You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day. Span is a player with concussion issues who is very solid, but unspectacular. You're not going to get anyone's prime trade bait with him alone. If Ryan pulls that off, great, but attacking anyone that questions that kind of speculation has plenty of flaws too.

Ah, I see...since you and I disagree on his value/abilities, it must be that I'M getting caught over-valuing a player I watch daily. Fantastic fact based argument. You couldn't possibly be wrong and undervaluing a player you watch daily. Are the people who do the Fielding Bible award over-valuing his defense based on watching him daily as well when they rated him the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball this year? Fangraphs saying he's 2nd in range, 2nd in UZR and 2nd in defensive runs saved, are they bias too? What about the people at Baseball-reference who have his WAR at 28th AL players (23 for Fangraphs)? Them too?

johnnydakota
11-01-2012, 09:55 PM
Okay...so...let's say they don't want to use Jennings in CF, which FA CF is gonna be cheaper than Span over the next two years who is also younger and fits their leadoff needs?

BTW, I also mentioned Revere at the beginning of all this...

So first to back up your point you make an assumption that is extremely favorable to your viewpoint? Cmon. The Rays have never acted in a way that is restricted by such limited, conventional thinking. They won't be taken to the woodshed in a Span deal because of some perceived "need" for a certain type of player at one position. Leadoff hitters don't have to play CF - they can address their OBP needs in other ways without Span. Your entire premise in this thread is built on the idea that we have Tampa right where we want them. That's hardly the case. The deal makes some sense for both sides and is worth exploring, but it is a bit far fetched to think you'll land Shields for Span. Just as it is that you'll land a top SP prospect for him.

with tampa looking to shed payroll and fill needs from excess same as the twins it looks like a good fit , we may have to throw in some non factors prospects like hernandez or hermsen but they aint going to help us so trade em

glunn
11-01-2012, 10:32 PM
Okay...so...let's say they don't want to use Jennings in CF, which FA CF is gonna be cheaper than Span over the next two years who is also younger and fits their leadoff needs?

BTW, I also mentioned Revere at the beginning of all this...

So first to back up your point you make an assumption that is extremely favorable to your viewpoint? Cmon. The Rays have never acted in a way that is restricted by such limited, conventional thinking. They won't be taken to the woodshed in a Span deal because of some perceived "need" for a certain type of player at one position. Leadoff hitters don't have to play CF - they can address their OBP needs in other ways without Span. Your entire premise in this thread is built on the idea that we have Tampa right where we want them. That's hardly the case. The deal makes some sense for both sides and is worth exploring, but it is a bit far fetched to think you'll land Shields for Span. Just as it is that you'll land a top SP prospect for him.

with tampa looking to shed payroll and fill needs from excess same as the twins it looks like a good fit , we may have to throw in some non factors prospects like hernandez or hermsen but they aint going to help us so trade em

Obviously, some GMs will value Span more than others. But the idea of trading Span for a solid starter who is affordable seems appealing, even if it's necessary to throw in a prospect or two to make the deal happen.

I also like the idea of bidding high for Anibal Sanchez -- he seems like a solid #2 -- and taking him would might weaken the Tigers.

Top Gun
11-02-2012, 06:30 AM
You can't trade with yourself.

sorney
11-02-2012, 06:48 AM
Well, if rumors are true and Span has been shopped around, the rest of the league doesn't value Span as highly as the Twins do. My guess is if they could/can get starting pitching for him they will pull the trigger. I personally agree with PseudoSABR, that that kind of player is a major reach for Span.

Or the Twins are doing what they always do WAY overvaluing their trade chips...

Unfortunately that always *seems* to be the case that they over value their trade chips....
Well, except for Ramos :)

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 07:53 AM
Unfortunately that always *seems* to be the case that they over value their trade chips....
Well, except for Ramos :)

Yeah, there have been some blatant exceptions, haven't there. My bad. :-)

old nurse
11-02-2012, 07:59 AM
Unfortunately that always *seems* to be the case that they over value their trade chips....
Well, except for Ramos :)

Yeah, there have been some blatant exceptions, haven't there. My bad. :-)

What trade chips has Ryan overvalued? Please don't use Bill Smith trades.

Boom Boom
11-02-2012, 08:06 AM
He's got Dozier starting at 2B and getting 450 PAs and Florimon starting at SS and getting 340 PAs... but no new middle infielders.

I don't have them doing anything there either this offseason as I believe their goal of solid defense is in place and will suffice for now. Once they know what they have for pitching next year and see how Arcia, Hicks, and Parmalee develop I can see one of them being traded either in July next year or next offseason for a SS.

If the idea is to trade for a shortstop, there's no reason not to do it now before investing a stack of cash in starting pitchers.

What's weird about Mackey's blueprint is that he's got Dozier playing half the time and Florimon less than that, and yet that's his optimal lineup. They're in the lineup but he's projecting them to be terrible. He also says this:

" The Twins scored 701 runs offensively last season, which ranked mid-pack. That figure likely would have been closer to 750 had 15% of the team's plate appearances not been swallowed up by black holes (Brian Dozier (http://www.twinsdaily.com/pages/roster.php?pID=350), Pedro Florimon, Danny Valencia (http://www.twinsdaily.com/pages/roster.php?pID=170), Alexi Casilla (http://www.twinsdaily.com/pages/roster.php?pID=15))."

What I'd like to know is, how did Dozier and Florimon's stock rise to the point that we're ready to hand the keys to the car over to them?

TheLeviathan
11-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Ah, I see...since you and I disagree on his value/abilities, it must be that I'M getting caught over-valuing a player I watch daily. Fantastic fact based argument. You couldn't possibly be wrong and undervaluing a player you watch daily. Are the people who do the Fielding Bible award over-valuing his defense based on watching him daily as well when they rated him the 3rd best defensive CF in baseball this year? Fangraphs saying he's 2nd in range, 2nd in UZR and 2nd in defensive runs saved, are they bias too? What about the people at Baseball-reference who have his WAR at 28th AL players (23 for Fangraphs)? Them too?

Heh. Well at least we got to the crux of it. I'm not saying you are necessarily over-valuing him. My point is that trade value is a very hard thing to pin down because it is built on perception and a number of contingent variables that we don't always have access to. It's not as simple as saying Player X has a WAR of Y, therefore his trade value is Z. It doesn't work like that.

Span is a very solid player but I don't believe his value as a player is going to be fetched in the trade market. Some players fetch more than their value, some don't. But that is merely my opinion, one I'm entitled to without being drummed over the head with statistics that only matter tangentially. In simpler terms for you - there is no fact-based argument about player trade value.

It's nice that we think Tampa is in the market for CF, it makes it an option worth exploring, but to assert that anyone's doubts about Span's ability to fetch a particular player (Minor or Shields) is really something based more on a gut feeling. The numbers you post exist, but Tampa doesn't have to care about them. Tampa could also care greatly about them, but still more about his concussions. We, on a message board, don't know that. Getting high and mighty about someone else's gut feeling about trade value is trying to punch air. It won't work and you look stupid doing it.

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Heh. Well at least we got to the crux of it. I'm not saying you are necessarily over-valuing him.

You're not? You wrote in your last post to me: 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day'

You also wrote to me: 'Getting high and mighty about someone else's gut feeling about trade value is trying to punch air. It won't work and you look stupid doing it. '

Which is exactly what YOU did and have done. ' You're not going to get anyone's prime trade bait with him alone'.

And when I responded to Willihammer's post to me, I wasn't acting high and mighty. I originally suggested a situation that I thought would make for a good trade and since he disagreed, I asked him for one he thought would be beneficial to TB

I did say to the guy, who never responded BTW:

'Okay...so...let's say they don't want to use Jennings in CF, which FA CF is gonna be cheaper than Span over the next two years who is also younger and fits their leadoff needs? BTW, I also mentioned Revere at the beginning of all this..'

Asking him what he thinks might be a better alternative isn't acting all high and mighty, it's asking for his opinion as to what he sees out there that might be better since he didn't think my scenario worked. If that's acting high and mighty, then we have different views as to what that means. I thought that was asking him what he thought might be better for the Rays...what they might do to address their needs.

I do thank you for the condescended words:' In simpler terms for you - there is no fact-based argument about player trade value.' As if you think you're somehow so far above my intelligence that you need to break things down to me as if I'm an idiot. Must be nice to be as smart as you......think you are.

TheLeviathan
11-02-2012, 04:43 PM
You're not? You wrote in your last post to me: 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day'

Nope, was suggesting a plausible scenario in which your aggressive attitude about Span's value was false. You've gone out of your way to go after anyone that suggests Span isn't as attractive a commodity as some are suggesting.

I've shared my opinion, you're welcome to yours as well. I hope yours is right, because then we'll turn Span into better value than I believe we will. But citing stats does not lead to a factual conclusion of trade value and it's silly to assert that.

Thrylos
11-02-2012, 05:05 PM
You're not? You wrote in your last post to me: 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day'

Nope, was suggesting a plausible scenario in which your aggressive attitude about Span's value was false. You've gone out of your way to go after anyone that suggests Span isn't as attractive a commodity as some are suggesting.

I've shared my opinion, you're welcome to yours as well. I hope yours is right, because then we'll turn Span into better value than I believe we will. But citing stats does not lead to a factual conclusion of trade value and it's silly to assert that.

that.

and there is another issue or two in play here: There are at least 3 CFs at the FA market who are better than Span (Bourn, Victorino, Pagan, Hunter maybe) but they cost more. Also, teams know that the Twins have to trade one of Span or Revere so that cuts down the expectations.

As far as Span goes, his lack of concentration sometimes really bothers me. At the batter's box, on the bases, on the field. He has spurs that he seems to be in his own world. And I suspect that I am not the only one who has seen that.

Riverbrian
11-02-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm Guessing that every team would love to have Span including the Twins. However, there will differences in opinion on how highly they value Span and differences in how much they need Span.

I don't think it's far fetched to think that GM's differ in opinions on players much like we differ in opinions. Some might lock into Metrics and Some might lock into measureables and some may lock into potential and most probably use a combination of but they all have differences in valuation of every player ranging from big differences to small.

This Trading stuff is tuff for that reason. It takes a lot of phone calls I guess.

I'm hopeful that some GM values Denard Span highly and needs and wants him and I'm hopeful that whoever that GM is... I'm hopeful that he has a decent spare pitcher to make the deal.

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 06:13 PM
You're not? You wrote in your last post to me: 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day'

Nope, was suggesting a plausible scenario in which your aggressive attitude about Span's value was false. You've gone out of your way to go after anyone that suggests Span isn't as attractive a commodity as some are suggesting.

I've shared my opinion, you're welcome to yours as well. I hope yours is right, because then we'll turn Span into better value than I believe we will. But citing stats does not lead to a factual conclusion of trade value and it's silly to assert that.

No, first you said, 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day' Then you said, 'I'm not saying you are necessarily over-valuing him' Exact opposites.

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 06:17 PM
that.

and there is another issue or two in play here: There are at least 3 CFs at the FA market who are better than Span (Bourn, Victorino, Pagan, Hunter maybe) but they cost more. Also, teams know that the Twins have to trade one of Span or Revere so that cuts down the expectations.

As far as Span goes, his lack of concentration sometimes really bothers me. At the batter's box, on the bases, on the field. He has spurs that he seems to be in his own world. And I suspect that I am not the only one who has seen that.

I've mentioned the price of the other available guys...which makes Span's value even better. Also, I'm not sure why the Twins HAVE to trade Span or Revere. They certainly should consider it based on needing pitching combined with their OF depth. But need to? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 06:24 PM
I'm Guessing that every team would love to have Span including the Twins. However, there will differences in opinion on how highly they value Span and differences in how much they need Span.

I don't think it's far fetched to think that GM's differ in opinions on players much like we differ in opinions. Some might lock into Metrics and Some might lock into measureables and some may lock into potential and most probably use a combination of but they all have differences in valuation of every player ranging from big differences to small.

This Trading stuff is tuff for that reason. It takes a lot of phone calls I guess.

I'm hopeful that some GM values Denard Span highly and needs and wants him and I'm hopeful that whoever that GM is... I'm hopeful that he has a decent spare pitcher to make the deal.

IMO, that's a very truthful post. Additionally, TB is a team that, due to payroll constraints, embraces advanced Metrics.

For me, it was just about this: The Rays seem to need a leadoff guy, they lost their CF, they are pitching rich (including Shields who they won't be able to afford in 2014 so they'll likely trade him) and they have a low payroll. Span will likely be cheaper the next two years than any comparable FA CF and he's proven. Revere could also be a choice if they like his potential and the fact he's even cheaper.

TheLeviathan
11-02-2012, 07:49 PM
No, first you said, 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day' Then you said, 'I'm not saying you are necessarily over-valuing him' Exact opposites.

Try and keep up - my opinion is that you are over-valuing him. Necessarily so? No, you could be right in the end.

Thrylos
11-02-2012, 07:59 PM
that.

and there is another issue or two in play here: There are at least 3 CFs at the FA market who are better than Span (Bourn, Victorino, Pagan, Hunter maybe) but they cost more. Also, teams know that the Twins have to trade one of Span or Revere so that cuts down the expectations.

As far as Span goes, his lack of concentration sometimes really bothers me. At the batter's box, on the bases, on the field. He has spurs that he seems to be in his own world. And I suspect that I am not the only one who has seen that.

I've mentioned the price of the other available guys...which makes Span's value even better. Also, I'm not sure why the Twins HAVE to trade Span or Revere. They certainly should consider it based on needing pitching combined with their OF depth. But need to? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

The Twins cannot afford two low SLG, good glove, SB, leadoff OFs when their MIF is going to be a mess. So one has to go. I'd take the one who is a better fielder, better runner, younger with higher up-side, and cheaper and trade the one who is on his prime with a decent contract...

ThePuck
11-02-2012, 09:42 PM
No, first you said, 'You're getting caught over-valuing a player you watch every day' Then you said, 'I'm not saying you are necessarily over-valuing him' Exact opposites.

Try and keep up - my opinion is that you are over-valuing him. Necessarily so? No, you could be right in the end.

Oh Jesus, whatever man...unbelievable