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View Full Version : Royals Destroy My Dreams, Acquire Ervin Santana



Seth Stohs
10-31-2012, 03:15 PM
According to Ken Rosenthal, the Royals have acquired RHP Ervin Santana from the LA Angels. Rumors were that the Angels were looking to deal Santana and Dan Haren, and that if they couldn't, they would likely decline their options for 2013. Well, the Royals apparently are willing to bet $13 Million that he'll turn things around in 2013. Who the Royals traded to the Angels at this point is unknown.

I thought that Santana was a great choice for a bounce-back season in 2013. If you look at his numbers, he has been very good and pretty durable most of the past five years.

So, can Santana be a bounce-back pitcher for the Royals OR will he be this year's Jonathan Sanchez?

UPDATE - The Angels acquire 27-year-old LHP Brandon Sisk, who posted a 1.35 WHIP in AAA in 2012. In other words, the Royals gave up just slightly over nothing to acquire a potential solid #2. Nice work for the Royals!

nicksaviking
10-31-2012, 03:24 PM
So if the Angels only required Nothing to give up Santana, does that mean they'll give up Next to Nothing for Haren should the buying team be willing to eat most of the salary?

Brock Beauchamp
10-31-2012, 03:26 PM
Smart move by the Royals.

Winston Smith
10-31-2012, 03:29 PM
I think Haren has a 3.5 buy out. I'd be happy to give up a 20's prospect for Haren and 3.5 mill.

johnnydakota
10-31-2012, 03:39 PM
and we wait for the dust to settle to see what our baseball guru will produce for us ,im guessing our rotation for 2013
moyer
wakefield
kevin correia
diamond
baker/gibson

kab21
10-31-2012, 05:29 PM
I'm not sure that I'm buying this Santana has been very good for the last 5 years business. His ERA has been bouncing between 3.50 and 5 and his XFIP has been bouncing between 4 and 4.50. He had the one great season in '08 (K:BB rates) and it looked like he was poised to become an ace. Then he hurt his elbow and has never come close to repeating those K and BB rates (velocity declined). He was a solid pickup but he really isn't that exciting.

iastfan112
10-31-2012, 05:33 PM
Eh, not a bad move by the Royals but certainly nothing worth writing home about. WAR the past 4 years: 1.0, 2.2, 2.9, -0.9. He's getting paid 12 million by the Royals. Lets say he bounces back in the 2.5 WAR range, he's still getting paid at pretty much a market rate.

jjswol
10-31-2012, 05:52 PM
I thnk this a great trade for the Royals getting Santana for next to nothing. Sure they will pay most of the $13 million salary but they send a nice message to their fans telling them that they are willing to try to improve even after gettig burnt on the Jonathan Sanchez deal last winter. KC seems to be collecting pitchers.

jorgenswest
10-31-2012, 07:48 PM
I wouldn't call 13 million nothing. I'd rather pay Baker 9.25 million than pay Santana 13 million while giving up a C prospect.

Santana has to be ecstatic. There is no way he gets that contract as a free agent.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
10-31-2012, 08:04 PM
His pay rate is way too high and I like the salary dump for the Angels in this. I don't think this a good move for the Royals since Santana is a career 4.33 ERA pitcher. Nothing special and he's really more like a #3 option at best in terms of performance.

sorney
10-31-2012, 08:11 PM
Agree. A little too much cash for his performance, but it might be a case of overpaying because of ack of alternatives

iastfan112
10-31-2012, 08:20 PM
I presume the Royals idea is if they aren't competitive at the deadline to flip him for a better prospect then.

USAFChief
10-31-2012, 08:44 PM
Getting Santana for nothing but salary is the type of move the Twins would make if ownership was serious about winning. Teams needing to put together 4/5ths of a rotation don't have the luxery of waiting for perfect solutions.

Nice move for KC, whether it works or not.

Anybody who thinks Santana doesn't represent a likely upgrade to what the Twins ran out in 2012, or wouldn't represent a probable upgrade to what they will likely run out in 2013, hasn't been paying much attention.

kab21
10-31-2012, 08:50 PM
Anybody who thinks Santana doesn't represent a likely upgrade to what the Twins ran out in 2012, or wouldn't represent a probable upgrade to what they will likely run out in 2013, hasn't been paying much attention.

Nobody said that.

old nurse
10-31-2012, 09:46 PM
Anybody who thinks Santana doesn't represent a likely upgrade to what the Twins ran out in 2012, or wouldn't represent a probable upgrade to what they will likely run out in 2013, hasn't been paying much attention.

Nobody said that.

But did they think it? Not everybody posts every thought they have. The person who thinks the Twins are going to sign Jamie Moyer ought to not post every crazy thought.

PseudoSABR
10-31-2012, 10:56 PM
The Royals acquired a scuffling, but talented Sanchez last year, and that didn't work out well at all. I question the Royal's ability to spot major league arms.

PseudoSABR
10-31-2012, 10:57 PM
Getting Santana for nothing but salary is the type of move the Twins would make if ownership was serious about winning. Teams needing to put together 4/5ths of a rotation don't have the luxery of waiting for perfect solutions.
Sure, but the pitcher whom they acquire actually does matter. In FA they can acquire a pitcher for nothing but salary. Santana has all kinds of questions marks, and might be the wrong pitcher, even if the right type of move.

iastfan112
10-31-2012, 11:19 PM
Getting Santana for nothing but salary is the type of move the Twins would make if ownership was serious about winning. Teams needing to put together 4/5ths of a rotation don't have the luxery of waiting for perfect solutions.
Sure, but the pitcher whom they acquire actually does matter. In FA they can acquire a pitcher for nothing but salary. Santana has all kinds of questions marks, and might be the wrong pitcher, even if the right type of move.

Santana was acquired for pretty much just salary as well, they really only gave up a version of Slama. The question of course is, was it good value. Acquiring a middling pitcher on a not particularly friendly contract isn't exactly an excellent move. There's a reason Santana only brought what he did, all the other teams said "Overpaid".

Top Gun
10-31-2012, 11:34 PM
Sometimes you have to overpay if you want to win. Kc just got alot better.

iastfan112
11-01-2012, 12:14 AM
Sometimes you have to overpay if you want to win. Kc just got alot better.

Good lord guys, its Ervin Santana not Johan in his prime. You know the guy with a career 4.33 era. 3.0 B/9 and 7.1 K/9. Edwin Jackson will probably be signed for a similar, albeit multiyear, deal. He's also a younger, better pitcher.

USAFChief
11-01-2012, 12:29 AM
Getting Santana for nothing but salary is the type of move the Twins would make if ownership was serious about winning. Teams needing to put together 4/5ths of a rotation don't have the luxery of waiting for perfect solutions.
Sure, but the pitcher whom they acquire actually does matter. In FA they can acquire a pitcher for nothing but salary. Santana has all kinds of questions marks, and might be the wrong pitcher, even if the right type of move.

If the Twins pick up four FA pitchers equal to or better than Santana, on one year deals, I'll retract.

beckmt
11-01-2012, 01:38 AM
Lots of unknowns here. Velocity decline this year would have me worried. I assume the Royals checked his medical reports. Still think Twins could do better than this. Would be interested in what the Angels wanted for Haren and how much salary the Twins would have to take on to work a deal. Move by the Royal was better than doing nothing. A low level prospect to the Angels for Haren and cash is intreging.

mike wants wins
11-01-2012, 07:03 AM
Every available pitcher has issues....worse news, this give the Angels money to sign Greinke. So two pitchers go off the market, and people willing to pay real money are no longer waiting for Greinke to decide.

These boards are going to nitpick every pitcher the Twins do not acquire, to explain why passing on them all was a good decision. Just like I expect Ryan to do....and end up with bad pitching again.

sorney
11-01-2012, 07:18 AM
Sometimes you have to overpay if you want to win. Kc just got alot better.

Good lord guys, its Ervin Santana not Johan in his prime. You know the guy with a career 4.33 era. 3.0 B/9 and 7.1 K/9. Edwin Jackson will probably be signed for a similar, albeit multiyear, deal. He's also a younger, better pitcher.


Yeah, the numbers aren't anything to shake a stick at, but a guy who misses some bats would be nice.
Although I would prefer Jackson as well.

Twins Twerp
11-01-2012, 07:29 AM
and we wait for the dust to settle to see what our baseball guru will produce for us ,im guessing our rotation for 2013
moyer
wakefield
kevin correia
diamond
baker/gibson

Yes but scratch Baker and Gibson, we will sign Roger Clemens by the All Star Break.

twinsnorth49
11-01-2012, 07:49 AM
Anybody who thinks Santana doesn't represent a likely upgrade to what the Twins ran out in 2012, or wouldn't represent a probable upgrade to what they will likely run out in 2013, hasn't been paying much attention.

Nobody said that.

It's being pretty strongly implied here by the people suggesting that KC getting Santana for beans isn't all that big news. Acquiring a pitcher better than anything we have for merely salary is exactly what this team should be doing right now, let's not ignore that.

Right now I'd be excited at anything that represents improvement in our pitching staff.

wavedog
11-01-2012, 07:57 AM
Positives for KC is that while $13M is likely overpaying - it is only a 1 year deal not a long-term commitment and they did not give up a player of much value. Santana has produced in the past - I seem to remember Santana would bounce back and forth between having a good year and bad year. Although nowhere near an ace - he probably would have been better than any of our pitchers except Diamond from this year. Maybe we are targeting for 3-4 year deals and did not have an interest in a one-year type deal or if we wanted to go 1-year deal we will bring Pavano back for $4M. I fear we will come up with something worse than Santana would have offered.

Craig in MN
11-01-2012, 08:23 AM
It's a pretty good move for KC, I think. I like Santana more than most, and I don't know how KC would bring in a better pitcher than the would in this trade. I think there's going to be massive salary inflation this year, so even for 13 million, he's a decent value. In a normal year, free agent Santana might get closer to 8 million, but not this year.

The big media contracts are going to kick in next year and enough GMs are going to be willing to use that now to get the better players that it will push up contracts. And there's enough money around with the other teams that they will be spending on the lesser free agents too. It's going to be a tough year for the Twins to bring in enough pitching to. Their only hope, I think, is being able to trade Morneau or and outfielder for a pitchers, and if the market is as expensive as it could be, that's a decent possibility.

kab21
11-01-2012, 09:56 AM
Anybody who thinks Santana doesn't represent a likely upgrade to what the Twins ran out in 2012, or wouldn't represent a probable upgrade to what they will likely run out in 2013, hasn't been paying much attention.

Nobody said that.

It's being pretty strongly implied here by the people suggesting that KC getting Santana for beans isn't all that big news. Acquiring a pitcher better than anything we have for merely salary is exactly what this team should be doing right now, let's not ignore that.

Right now I'd be excited at anything that represents improvement in our pitching staff.

it's like you think the offseason is over and the Twins are going to spend an unlimited amount of money. I think the Twins will sign one 10+M/yr pitcher, Baker and one pile of crap. I'm hoping that the Twins are aiming a little higher than Ervin Santana for that 10+M/yr pitcher but that's just me.

Nick Nelson
11-01-2012, 11:55 AM
Angels sent over $1 million in the deal so the Royals are paying $12M, not $13M. A bit more than the 1 year, $9M contract we predicted in the Handbook but not a ton and we all know the mantra about one-year deals. This is an indication that the Royals are serious about revamping their pitching staff and giving it a go next year, though I'm not at all convinced it's going to work out.

Winston Smith
11-01-2012, 12:05 PM
It's a start. Not a perfect pitcher by any means but he has shown he can be good. The problem with many teams the Royals and Twins among them is that when you have a really bad pitching staff it takes a lot to climb out of that hole. You can't just go out a trade for say a Fister, Sherzer or Sanchez to build a staff you need to band aid it together piece by piece and some of those guys may not be perfect.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Rays just exercised Shields' option...if the Twins are gonna trade Span or Revere, NOW is the time... cause the Rays need a good inexpensive CF....and many of the CFs on the market now will cost more. TB is one for the few teams who need a CF where we can get good value from in a trade due to his team friendly contract. Revere might even be more tempting due to salary.

mike wants wins
11-01-2012, 12:32 PM
They will have to give up more than 1outfielder to get Shields.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 12:41 PM
They will have to give up more than 1outfielder to get Shields.

Clearly...the point was more about if they are gonna trade Span or Revere, the perfect fit would be TB and the perfect time would be now. TB won't exercise Shield's 2014 option and won't re-sign him, so they need to trade him soon. Teams know this

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 01:03 PM
Rays just exercised Shields' option...if the Twins are gonna trade Span or Revere, NOW is the time... cause the Rays need a good inexpensive CF....and many of the CFs on the market now will cost more. TB is one for the few teams who need a CF where we can get good value from in a trade due to his team friendly contract. Revere might even be more tempting due to salary.
TB does have Jennings. He can play CF, can't he?

johnnydakota
11-01-2012, 01:04 PM
They will have to give up more than 1outfielder to get Shields.

Clearly...the point was more about if they are gonna trade Span or Revere, the perfect fit would be TB and the perfect time would be now. TB won't exercise Shield's 2014 option and won't re-sign him, so they need to trade him soon. Teams know this
if the twins dont move fast and show other free agents there serious about competing ,i can think of no reason to come to twinkie town and hope not to lose 100 games,so get shields or johnson now...or sit on your thumbs and tell the fans we tried but no one wanted to take a cut rate offer and come here excepts capps and moyer....

the twins need to decide if there making a run at a title or rebuilding the only thing you get from straddeling the fense is sore balls
so either go big , or rebuild , just quit blowing smoke up our butts about how you think you put a competitive team on the field in march and april then complain in june ,,,,,
god bless the working people and go twins

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Rays just exercised Shields' option...if the Twins are gonna trade Span or Revere, NOW is the time... cause the Rays need a good inexpensive CF....and many of the CFs on the market now will cost more. TB is one for the few teams who need a CF where we can get good value from in a trade due to his team friendly contract. Revere might even be more tempting due to salary.
TB does have Jennings. He can play CF, can't he?

Well, he can go there....not sure if he can do the job in CF. Some TB fans I know seem to doubt it, but honestly I'm not sure.

John Bonnes
11-01-2012, 01:28 PM
I just heard some hand-wringing about this Santana move on the radio. Here's the thing: if the Twins would've made this move, I would have not have liked it. It's not a disaster - one-year deals are never disasters - but with limited resources, this isn't the way to spend $12M. The extra millions they spent on Ervin might not have been necessary, as he's a prime candidate for a one-year deal anyway this spring.

And don't get me wrong - I like Santana. He was a guy I was targeting, too. But if the Twins are spending $90M, they can't blow $12M of the $16M they have to spend on Santana. I'd much rather give a multi-year deal for similar money to better pitchers.

John Bonnes
11-01-2012, 01:36 PM
Rays just exercised Shields' option...if the Twins are gonna trade Span or Revere, NOW is the time... cause the Rays need a good inexpensive CF....and many of the CFs on the market now will cost more. TB is one for the few teams who need a CF where we can get good value from in a trade due to his team friendly contract. Revere might even be more tempting due to salary.
TB does have Jennings. He can play CF, can't he?


Well, he can go there....not sure if he can do the job in CF. Some TB fans I know seem to doubt it, but honestly I'm not sure.

Jason Collette, who I trust, says the Rays are almost undoubtedly going to be interested in acquiring a CFer this year. He wouldn't rule out a Shields for Span deal, straight up.

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I just heard some hand-wringing about this Santana move on the radio. Here's the thing: if the Twins would've made this move, I would have not have liked it. It's not a disaster - one-year deals are never disasters - but with limited resources, this isn't the way to spend $12M. The extra millions they spent on Ervin might not have been necessary, as he's a prime candidate for a one-year deal anyway this spring.

And don't get me wrong - I like Santana. He was a guy I was targeting, too. But if the Twins are spending $90M, they can't blow $12M of the $16M they have to spend on Santana. I'd much rather give a multi-year deal for similar money to better pitchers.I agree.

In any case, a one year deal doesn't work to the Twins advantage as it would in most years, with Morneau's 14mil coming off the books. Signing a pitcher (esp. one with a better recent track record) to a two or three year deal isn't the sinking ship it could be in most years because of the future payroll flexibility.

There's nearly a half dozen (if not more) FA pitchers I'd rather have than Santana, who might even come cheaper.

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 01:47 PM
TB does have Jennings. He can play CF, can't he?

Well, he can go there....not sure if he can do the job in CF. Some TB fans I know seem to doubt it, but honestly I'm not sure.
He did play more than 400 career minor league games at CF, not that it means he's major league capable, but that certainly was his trajectory as he was developing.

If I'm TB, I'd use Sheilds to get a better than Span/Revere can offer.

Nick Nelson
11-01-2012, 02:14 PM
He did play more than 400 career minor league games at CF, not that it means he's major league capable, but that certainly was his trajectory as he was developing.

If I'm TB, I'd use Sheilds to get a better than Span/Revere can offer.
I think the Rays trust Jennings to play center. I don't think they trust him to bad leadoff. Tampa Bay got a .314 OBP from the No. 1 spot in the order this year and .304 from the two-hole. You've gotta believe a stat-centric organization like that is going to be heavily targeting affordable high-OBP options to plug into the top of the lineup, particular since it would lessen their reliance on a breakout year from Jennings, who was nothing special this year.

Joe Christensen recently called my suggested Shields for Span-and-Hermsen deal far-fetched. And when I think about it, maybe he's right. But I can see plenty of reasons that the Rays would be extremely interested in acquiring Span.

PseudoSABR
11-01-2012, 02:26 PM
He did play more than 400 career minor league games at CF, not that it means he's major league capable, but that certainly was his trajectory as he was developing.

If I'm TB, I'd use Sheilds to get a better than Span/Revere can offer.
I think the Rays trust Jennings to play center. I don't think they trust him to bad leadoff. Tampa Bay got a .314 OBP from the No. 1 spot in the order this year and .304 from the two-hole. You've gotta believe a stat-centric organization like that is going to be heavily targeting affordable high-OBP options to plug into the top of the lineup, particular since it would lessen their reliance on a breakout year from Jennings, who was nothing special this year.

Joe Christensen recently called my suggested Shields for Span-and-Hermsen deal far-fetched. And when I think about it, maybe he's right. But I can see plenty of reasons that the Rays would be extremely interested in acquiring Span.This is a good point, although Jennings did post a very strong walk rate throughout the minor leagues (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jennin001des#standard_batting::none) .

Willihammer
11-01-2012, 02:39 PM
I wonder if the Rays would take a Span-Morneau package where the Twins ate maybe $7m of Morneau's salary. That would be a neutral move payroll-wise.

mike wants wins
11-01-2012, 02:50 PM
Again, the bad part for the Twins is that this makes it more likely the Angels re- sign Greinke quickly, meaning the other teams are not waiting for him to decide on their offer, meaning the Twins now have a harder time signing other free agents.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 03:15 PM
Again, the bad part for the Twins is that this makes it more likely the Angels re- sign Greinke quickly, meaning the other teams are not waiting for him to decide on their offer, meaning the Twins now have a harder time signing other free agents.

Our team overvaluing it's trade chips is another problem...

mike wants wins
11-01-2012, 03:40 PM
on the other side of the coin, does this mean the Royals are leas likely to compete to sign pitchers now?