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Parker Hageman
10-31-2012, 08:57 AM
This is beating a dead-horse, I know.

The Gold Glove Awards were announced last night in an oddly concocted award show format on ESPN2. In the AL, Baltimore Orioles' shortstop JJ Hardy was the recipient of the hardware for that position (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8574862/gold-glove-awards-baltimore-orioles-win-3-mike-trout-los-angeles-angels-snubbed). So now, the Twins have traded away a 30-home run, Gold Glove winning shortstop.

Since trading him, the Twins have had a -5.2 UZR/150 at the position (third-worst in the AL) along with a .280 weighted on-base average (third lowest). Meanwhile, the Orioles have hit the most home runs at the position (52 compared to the Twins' 18) and the O's have had the third-highest UZR/150 (9.6) in baseball.

How do you feel about the team's future at this pivotal position?

stringer bell
10-31-2012, 09:02 AM
I find it far more significant that the O's UZR is high than whether or not JJ won the Gold Glove. I actually think he probably deserved it, but the Gold Glove is perhaps the worst award given by MLB. Several marginal defenders have won the award and some (Palmeiro) have won when they mostly have served as a DH.

Parker Hageman
10-31-2012, 09:05 AM
Right, the Gold Glove is often a travestshamockery and you could argue that Brendon Ryan was a superior defender, but I think this is league-wide recognition that JJ Hardy is very much an elite defender and jives with the advanced defensive statistics.

Winston Smith
10-31-2012, 09:06 AM
No doubt Gardy is happy he has shortstops that play the way he did and not Hardy.

70charger
10-31-2012, 09:11 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure there were more than a few here (maybe with paper bags over their heads now) who were fine with jettisoning the fragile Hardy for the next big thing from Japan.

Besides, to reiterate, Gold Gloves are kind of stupid. Mike Trout didn't win one? That pretty much says it all.

Boom Boom
10-31-2012, 09:12 AM
Hardy was a pansy who missed too much time with that little wrist boo-boo he "had". Also he's slow.

But seriously, I don't think Dozier has the defensive ability to stick at shortstop and I think Florimon is Juan Castro v2. Whoever the Twins shortstop of the future is, I don't think he's on the roster right now.

gunnarthor
10-31-2012, 09:15 AM
Yeah, MI is a bit of blackhole for us but we do have a handful of legit prospects in the pipeline - Rosario, Micheal, Polanco, Santana. I suspect next year we'll have Carroll (who isn't that bad) and a pu-pu platter again.

I wonder if Span gets traded for a MI and a pitcher.

edavis0308
10-31-2012, 09:25 AM
How did Jeter not win? Rigged!

diehardtwinsfan
10-31-2012, 09:41 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure there were more than a few here (maybe with paper bags over their heads now) who were fine with jettisoning the fragile Hardy for the next big thing from Japan.Besides, to reiterate, Gold Gloves are kind of stupid. Mike Trout didn't win one? That pretty much says it all.Yes, GGs are stupid, why else would Jeter have a collection?That said, this site didn't exist, but I seem to remember very few people thinking that trading Hardy was a good thing over at BYTO... myself included.

Twins Twerp
10-31-2012, 09:42 AM
We need to draft MI and SP only. No more Relief Pitchers, outfielders, or corner outfielders. Maybe a few catchers now and then. The next stud SS for the Twins will be the first in my 25 year lifetime.

nicksaviking
10-31-2012, 09:53 AM
Had the Twins drafted Hardy, he surely would not have ended up as a SS. His size and (lack of) speed would have convinced the Twins he wouldn't have the range for SS long before he would have reached the majors.

My biggest issue with the Hardy loss lies in the rumors that the Twins and Hardy butted heads on his reluctance to hit to all fields. Willingham and Plouffe showed this year that for right handed hitters, Hardy's philosopy was the correct one at Target Field.

Badsmerf
10-31-2012, 09:56 AM
Fail.

twinsnorth49
10-31-2012, 09:57 AM
What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.

johnnydakota
10-31-2012, 09:59 AM
No doubt Gardy is happy he has shortstops that play the way he did and not Hardy.
nailed it

Willihammer
10-31-2012, 10:03 AM
One of the sweetest moments from the Jr interview. John: Hardy scores outstanding in defensive metrics. Jr: He does? Unreal.

Riverbrian
10-31-2012, 10:30 AM
What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.

Bingo... It's not the players we have lost and what they could be doing for us now.

It's what we got in return and what those acquired players are NOT doing for us.

Seth Stohs
10-31-2012, 10:34 AM
I didn't have a problem with trading Hardy at the time. I think if they would have received two relievers who were at least decent it wouldn't have been so bad. But getting nothing for him, and then him going and having his one great year last year kind of combined to a perfect storm. I'm surprised he didn't win the Gold Glove last year when he hit better.

Jim Crikket
10-31-2012, 10:51 AM
By the time the Twins traded Hardy, they already had signed Nishioka, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. While he hadn't been an All-Star by any means, with the Twins, he certainly was an improvement over what we'd seen at SS prior to his arrival. Nishioka was an entertaining sideshow initially, but even among those of us who didn't see Hardy as being terrific, I think the reaction was more along the lines of, "OK, you think this is an improvement... you'd better be right." Obviously, the Twins weren't right and the fact that the players they got in return bombed just made things worse.

I'm happy for Hardy that he's been having success and congratulations to the Orioles on getting the best end of this particular trade.

GCTF
10-31-2012, 11:11 AM
What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.

C'mon, who'll ever forget the time Jim Hoey struck that guy out.

In between walking 3 and hitting two.

LewFordLives
10-31-2012, 11:15 AM
What future at MI ?

The worst part about losing JJ is that we got jack for him.

C'mon, who'll ever forget the time Jim Hoey struck that guy out.

In between walking 3 and hitting two.

I forgot;-)

mike wants wins
10-31-2012, 11:21 AM
One of the worst trades ever. I thought they had signed Nishioka to play 2nd, with Hardy at SS. They have this picture in their head that Hardy and college players do not align with.

PseudoSABR
10-31-2012, 11:25 AM
We didn't need a gold glove award to tell us Hardy was a good defender. In fact with Jones winning over Trout, I think the gold glove works against Hardy's ability to play defense. Gold glove is a hustle/good guy award.

old nurse
10-31-2012, 11:28 AM
We need to draft MI and SP only. No more Relief Pitchers, outfielders, or corner outfielders. Maybe a few catchers now and then. The next stud SS for the Twins will be the first in my 25 year lifetime.

By your picture I thought you were around for Roy Smalley
BTW Aren't players with home run potential usually at a corner position to begin with?

Brock Beauchamp
10-31-2012, 11:29 AM
One of the worst trades ever.

Ryne Sandberg and the Philadelphia Phillies disagree.

gunnarthor
10-31-2012, 11:48 AM
One of the worst trades ever. .

Bit of an overstatement. We got rid of one year of Hardy, it's not remotely the worst trade ever. And, frankly, it was a very defensible trade at the time. Hardy missed a lot of games in 2010, leaving Gardy with a 24 man bench. His play had declined two years in a row and he was due a large raise in his arbitration year. The Twins decided that money would be better spent on Thome and Pavano.

StormJH1
10-31-2012, 11:59 AM
By the time the Twins traded Hardy, they already had signed Nishioka, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. While he hadn't been an All-Star by any means, with the Twins, he certainly was an improvement over what we'd seen at SS prior to his arrival. Nishioka was an entertaining sideshow initially, but even among those of us who didn't see Hardy as being terrific, I think the reaction was more along the lines of, "OK, you think this is an improvement... you'd better be right." Obviously, the Twins weren't right and the fact that the players they got in return bombed just made things worse.

I'm happy for Hardy that he's been having success and congratulations to the Orioles on getting the best end of this particular trade.


That's right. The Twins basically got a free pass at the time because there was excitement over this Japanese shortstop they were bringing over, who was going to hit like Ichiro and field like Omar Vizquel. When those predictions turned out to be jussssst a bit off, we were left holding the bag.

StormJH1
10-31-2012, 12:05 PM
One of the worst trades ever. I thought they had signed Nishioka to play 2nd, with Hardy at SS. They have this picture in their head that Hardy and college players do not align with.

Actually no. I mean, we can't say for sure what Bill Smith and Gardy were thinking at the time (as opposed to publicly saying), but I'm fairly certain that Nishioka was understood to be the Opening Day shortstop, since he was a "Gold Glove" equivalent at that position in Japan. It's not like the Japanese infields are smaller or anything. Only when they got him into Spring Training did they have concerns about hit arm strength enough that Gardy moved him to 2B. Only took him a week to break his leg there because he didn't know how to bail out of DP situations.

Even when Nishioka fielded a ball cleanly, he had to get a rid of it very quickly because he had no arm. This probably exacerbated his other consistency problems. He was like a poor man's David Eckstein out there, if David Eckstein was also a headcase.

mike wants wins
10-31-2012, 12:22 PM
I said "I thought", not "they thought". And yes, that was obviously an exaggeration. But it was an awful trade.

Parker Hageman
10-31-2012, 12:55 PM
It's not like the Japanese infields are smaller or anything.

They are all artificial turf -- aside from one field.

h2oface
10-31-2012, 12:59 PM
My biggest issue with the Hardy loss lies in the rumors that the Twins and Hardy butted heads on his reluctance to hit to all fields. Willingham and Plouffe showed this year that for right handed hitters, Hardy's philosopy was the correct one at Target Field.

according to hardy............. that is not a rumor. that comes from hardy.

CDog
10-31-2012, 01:20 PM
My biggest issue with the Hardy loss lies in the rumors that the Twins and Hardy butted heads on his reluctance to hit to all fields. Willingham and Plouffe showed this year that for right handed hitters, Hardy's philosopy was the correct one at Target Field.

according to hardy............. that is not a rumor. that comes from hardy.

According to the same Hardy that gave credit to Vavra and his approach of going with the pitch for turning him around and helping him greatly? That same one?

Fire Dan Gladden
10-31-2012, 01:27 PM
I didn't have a problem with trading Hardy at the time. I think if they would have received two relievers who were at least decent it wouldn't have been so bad. But getting nothing for him, and then him going and having his one great year last year kind of combined to a perfect storm. I'm surprised he didn't win the Gold Glove last year when he hit better.

I had a problem and I still do. SS has been an issue for the Twins forever. The had a younger, good hitting and fielding replacement that they gave away for nothing. In the context of that, it would have to go down as one of the worst Twins moves in recent memory.

snepp
10-31-2012, 02:07 PM
Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure there were more than a few here (maybe with paper bags over their heads now) who were fine with jettisoning the fragile Hardy for the next big thing from Japan.

Besides, to reiterate, Gold Gloves are kind of stupid. Mike Trout didn't win one? That pretty much says it all.

There's nothing 20/20 about it. The Hardy deal was horse**** right from day 1, and it was widely panned as such.


Besides, to reiterate, the GG has nothing to do with it. As already noted, it's just a dash of salt in an already gaping wound.

Badsmerf
10-31-2012, 02:18 PM
The Twins got a pass "at the time?" Is anyone serious with those statements? I remember complete fanatical melt-downs on the topic. Also, it was worse with Nishi because of how much money they were throwing at him and his clear lack of proven track record. Giving away Hardy for nothing was a huge mistake, amplified by the lack of competent options in the organization.

wavedog
10-31-2012, 03:04 PM
I do remember a lot of questions at the time of the trade - we had just traded for him the year before and he did not have a bad season. I know he was injured a little but he still played at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Adding salt to the wound that we traded him for a couple of beans instead of a major league ready player. He certainly must have rubbed somebody wrong in the organization. What was the timing - did we sign Nishi first - $4M signing fee plus $3M salary - so we had to dump Hardy's salary equivalent? That was gold.

The Greatest Poster Alive
10-31-2012, 04:02 PM
http://i.imgur.com/EPFfZ.gif

DAE WANT RAMOS BACK?

mikeee
11-01-2012, 11:06 AM
I always liked Hardy...

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 04:23 PM
Let's get the timeline right. Twins announced Hardy was traded in an article written on the 9th of December. Twins announced they had signed Nishioka in an article written on the 17th. In other words, Hardy was traded before Nishioka was a Twin, not the other way around. And yes, I know they won the rights to Nishi around the same time...but it wasn't a done deal

Nishi was also brought in to play 2B cause Gardy was planning on using Casilla at shortstop. Saying he liked how Casilla came in on balls along with his speed and athleticism. He even went so far as to say, before Hardy was trade, that even if Hardy was on the team, Casilla would compete with him for shortstop.

ThePuck
11-01-2012, 04:26 PM
I always liked Hardy...

I was downright giddy when we signed him and absolutely pissed when we traded him

Fire Dan Gladden
11-01-2012, 07:35 PM
I always liked Hardy...

I was downright giddy when we signed him and absolutely pissed when we traded him

My sentiments exactly.

USAFChief
11-01-2012, 10:24 PM
And, frankly, it was a very defensible trade at the time. Hardy missed a lot of games in 2010, leaving Gardy with a 24 man bench. His play had declined two years in a row and he was due a large raise in his arbitration year. The Twins decided that money would be better spent on Thome and Pavano.

1. No. It wasn't defensible "at the time." Not remotely so. It was poorly thought out, which was obvious then, and it doesn't look any better in retrospect.

2. Hardy did miss 61 games in 2010. As I recall, he had a wrist injury. But he didn't "leave Gardy with a 24 man bench." He spent two separate stints on the DL, during which, presumably, the Twins called up someone to take his place. Those two DL stays account for 40 of the 61 games he missed. When he wasn't on the DL, he performed well. In fact, when his wrist healed, and he played almost every day during the second half of the season--the time during which the Twins made their run, going 48-26--he put up a .304/.363/.442 line couple with excellent defense. Heck, he's one of the primary reasons they WENT on that run. In any case, if the you truly believe Hardy "left Gardy with a 24 man bench," wouldn't that be on Gardy? Or Bill Smith? Of course, it's moot, since that wasn't the case.

3. The "large raise" he got in arbitration? $750K, from $5.1M to $5.85M. Hardy actually cost less in 2011 than Nishioka, if you consider the posting fee, which by the way has proven to be a complete and total waste of money. Might as well have burned it. For the record, Hardy later signed a 3 yr extension, for $7M per year, which any of us would be thrilled about were he still a Twin. There was, and is, zero monetary argument for dumping Hardy. None.

4. Since signing Nishioka cost MORE than it would have to take Hardy to arb, they couldn't have used any money saved to sign Thome or Pavano. Additionally, Thome signed for little or nothing, which they could have done in any case. As for Pavano, I don't see how the Twins making what seemed to me an obviously stupid decision then--to give Carl Pavano $16.5M--somehow justifies dumping JJ Hardy. Two bad decisions don't make a correct one. And remember...they didn't SAVE ANY MONEY that year by signing Nishioka instead of Hardy anyway.

I repeat...the Hardy decision was an obvious blunder by Bill Smith then, and it looks even worse now. Your post is revisionist history at best, outright falsehoods at worst.