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View Full Version : Article: Terry Ryan: Twins Will Chase "Pretty Darn Good" Pitcher



John Bonnes
10-22-2012, 10:51 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?1113-Terry-Ryan-Twins-Will-Chase-Pretty-Darn-Good-Pitcher

Ultima Ratio
10-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Thin?!?! Good lord almighty.

USAFChief
10-22-2012, 11:21 PM
Is there a bit more substance in the rest of the interview than the "answers" Ryan provided in this sample?

We learned nothing from these quotes.

killertwinsfan
10-23-2012, 12:08 AM
Avoid Loshe like the plauge. His only 2 good years were in the N.L. and they were supported by very low BABIP and HR rate, doubtfull he can maintain that

johnnydakota
10-23-2012, 12:10 AM
so?who gives a rats A** what curly chases he to old and to cheap to catch any decent #1 or #2 pitcher
but with waddlin ronnys need to carry 3 catchers , maybe its time to bring the PRICK back ,and sign aj to a 2 year contract ?
1 thing this team has lacked is a vocal leader a prick and straight forward im gonna kill you leader... a j isnt well like by foe but is well recieved by his teamates, his balls in your face, old school play is some thing the twins have lacked for a very long time ...
with justin all but shoved out the door why not sign aj to replace morneaus lefthanded power and then you can rotate the 3 catchers between home 1st and dh

greengoblinrulz
10-23-2012, 12:15 AM
Id like to know why he thinks Pedro Florimon is a starting SS in the majors when the other 31 teams passed on a free shot at him

mgraves
10-23-2012, 02:15 AM
Id like to know why he thinks Pedro Florimon is a starting SS in the majors when the other 31 teams passed on a free shot at him

Florimon was a waiver pickup. Unless he fell all the way through waivers, then the Twins had first crack at him last winter, so he would not have had to be passed on by the other 29 teams.

SenatorsGuy
10-23-2012, 06:34 AM
so?who gives a rats A** what curly chases he to old and to cheap to catch any decent #1 or #2 pitcher
but with waddlin ronnys need to carry 3 catchers , maybe its time to bring the PRICK back ,and sign aj to a 2 year contract ?
1 thing this team has lacked is a vocal leader a prick and straight forward im gonna kill you leader... a j isnt well like by foe but is well recieved by his teamates, his balls in your face, old school play is some thing the twins have lacked for a very long time ...
with justin all but shoved out the door why not sign aj to replace morneaus lefthanded power and then you can rotate the 3 catchers between home 1st and dh


There is nothing the matter with being negative on the Twins FA history or Ryan's methods - and it certainly is fine to be a fan of AJ. But you do yourself a deservice when you say things like AJ has been well received by his teammates. You simply haven't been paying attention.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-23-2012, 06:43 AM
so?who gives a rats A** what curly chases he to old and to cheap to catch any decent #1 or #2 pitcher
but with waddlin ronnys need to carry 3 catchers , maybe its time to bring the PRICK back ,and sign aj to a 2 year contract ?
1 thing this team has lacked is a vocal leader a prick and straight forward im gonna kill you leader... a j isnt well like by foe but is well recieved by his teamates, his balls in your face, old school play is some thing the twins have lacked for a very long time ...
with justin all but shoved out the door why not sign aj to replace morneaus lefthanded power and then you can rotate the 3 catchers between home 1st and dh


There is nothing the matter with being negative on the Twins FA history or Ryan's methods - and it certainly is fine to be a fan of AJ. But you do yourself a deservice when you say things like AJ has been well received by his teammates. You simply haven't been paying attention.

Unless I have missed something recently, everything I have read about AJ is that his teammates love him, and everybody else hates him. He plays agressive and borderline cheap, he never gets hurt, he protects hisn pitchers and teammates, and he is consistantly productive. I would welcomwe him back to this team in a heartbeat if it wasn'y for the fact there isn't a spot for him on the roster (he needs to play almost every day, he is not a good fit for Butera's spot)

Twins Twerp
10-23-2012, 08:10 AM
I'm glad TwinsDaily doesn't push the offseason handbook on it's users

nick5253
10-23-2012, 08:22 AM
I'm glad TwinsDaily doesn't push the offseason handbook on it's users

Offseason Handbook? That sounds interesting. Where might I get one of those? I've heard nothing about it and I haven't seen any annoying banner ads all over Twins Daily.

JB_Iowa
10-23-2012, 08:46 AM
Since Terry Ryan never tips his hand at anything, the contents of this excerpt aren't surprising .... but then, I wouldn't expect him to say anything meaningful in the entire interview.

Great for the speculation game but everyone will just have to wait and see what he does before learning anything definitive.

Boom Boom
10-23-2012, 08:51 AM
TR keeps saying the pitching market is "thin", but it looks like one of the thickest I've seen in the past several years.

mike wants wins
10-23-2012, 09:18 AM
The snarky comments about ads and the handbook are uncalled for. These guys put up this site, they can run it however they want. You know they have ads, you know they are selling their book. Yet you choose to come here. Why complain?

On topic, if this pitching market is thin, what would a thick one look like?

Winston Smith
10-23-2012, 09:19 AM
The pitching market is probably thin because we are a last place team. Quality players like to win. Or if they can't win get paid really really well. After the last two years what pitcher would look at the Twins and say here is my chance to win it all?

My guess is that in order to get quality pitching they will have to over pay, history has shown that bad teams have had to over pay for any free agents. That makes most of these guys look less attractive because they cost much more than they are worth.

With half or more of the teams (15-20) looking for pitching and maybe 8-10 guys that are decent starters thin seems like a good word for what is out there.

dabecka
10-23-2012, 09:45 AM
I'm glad TwinsDaily doesn't push the offseason handbook on it's users

I'm sorry, but why would Twins Daily crew be researching, generating unique content, editing, and publishing a e-book...then giving it away...for free.

Last time I checked, we lived in America.

Winston Smith
10-23-2012, 10:19 AM
This is the crop of FA starters. Some others may have options declined or released or just wouldn't likely fit, rumored trouble makers or injured.
When nearly every team needs pitching this is a very thin list.





2012 war based on 80+ innings



Erik Bedard (34)

1.3



Joe Blanton (32)

2.4



Kevin Correia (32)

.8



Ryan Dempster (36)

3.3



Zack Greinke (28)

5.1



Dan Haren (32)

1.8



Edwin Jackson (29)

2.7



Hiroki Kuroda (38)

3.9



Kyle Lohse (34)

3.6



Paul Maholm (31)

2.5



Shaun Marcum (31)

1.4



Brandon McCarthy (29)

1.8



Kevin Millwood (38)

2.0



Anibal Sanchez (29)

3.8



Ervin Santana (30)

-.9



Joe Saunders (32)

2.5

John Bonnes
10-23-2012, 10:40 AM
No, it's not. Or at least not when you include those players whose options are going to be declined.

How one wants to evaluate how "deep" a market it is open to debate, but it seems to me the best way is by evaluating the dollars they're likely to draw. That would at least give a sense of whether the teams think this is a deep market.

And what we're going to see is that this is the deepest market, demanding the most dollars, as there has been in several years. I wrote about this a few weeks ago.

http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1049-Deep-Starting-Pitching-Market-Is-A-Lucky-Break-For-Twins


There are as many as 11 pitchers who could garner a $20M offer from a team. In the first draft of TwinsCentricís Offseason GM Handbook (which youíll be able to order soon, I promise), I count six that are virtually locks to make that money There are five more that might, and each will almost certainly get at least $10 million guaranteed. Thatís deeper than any class since 2006.

Winston Smith
10-23-2012, 11:36 AM
No, it's not. Or at least not when you include those players whose options are going to be declined.

How one wants to evaluate how "deep" a market it is open to debate, but it seems to me the best way is by evaluating the dollars they're likely to draw. That would at least give a sense of whether the teams think this is a deep market.

And what we're going to see is that this is the deepest market, demanding the most dollars, as there has been in several years. I wrote about this a few weeks ago.

http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1049-Deep-Starting-Pitching-Market-Is-A-Lucky-Break-For-Twins


There are as many as 11 pitchers who could garner a $20M offer from a team. In the first draft of TwinsCentricís Offseason GM Handbook (which youíll be able to order soon, I promise), I count six that are virtually locks to make that money There are five more that might, and each will almost certainly get at least $10 million guaranteed. Thatís deeper than any class since 2006.

Isn't it a supply and demand thing? Nearly ever team needs pitching. When nearly every team needs pitching the demand is high. The number of "quality" available pitchers is finite so those pitchers will be in a higher demand and likely demand a higher cost. When Ryan says we need 3 pitchers and the market has maybe 15 or so pitchers that may be above replacement level and maybe 20 teams are looking to add pitchers that seems to make the demand much higher than the supply.
Of course in the past we've done the "trickle down" free agent signing pitchers that were left over after everyone else has picked the bones. Getting 2-3 starters out of whatever list you want to use will be very hard considering that we have maybe 25m to do it, imo.
What do we really have of value to trade for a starting pitcher of any quality? Span is the most likely, Willingham would leave a big hole in the lineup and nobody else has much value. Do you want to start shopping Sano or Hicks types? What teams need a center fielder and have excess pitching? List is very short, Rays, Mets, Braves and maybe the Reds? So can you get Shields from the Rays? Maybe Bailey from the Reds, or Niese from the Mets would that do it?
Trading for or signing 3 solid starting pitchers this winter will be very hard.

Teflon
10-23-2012, 11:38 AM
I'm putting together a deal to make a "Moneyball" sequel based on Terry Ryan and the Twins. One of my favorite scenes is when Ryan (Kurtwood Smith (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001748/)) tells Billy Smith (Joel Murray (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0615063/)) to go sign the Greek God of Walks and Smith signs the Greek God of Balks by mistake.


P.S. Who is this pitcher Will Chase?

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Thin?!?! Good lord almighty.

Telling us it's thin is a way to prepare us for what we end up with...cause, you know, 'we'll be competing with so many other teams also looking for pitching and it's just such a thin market, teams are gonna overpay...and we just can't see doing that.'

Brock Beauchamp
10-23-2012, 11:45 AM
Is there a bit more substance in the rest of the interview than the "answers" Ryan provided in this sample?

We learned nothing from these quotes.

The interview is nine pages in length. There is plenty of content and answers in it, I assure you. Ryan was pretty frank at points and I think the interview is quite enlightening.

twinsnorth49
10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm glad TwinsDaily doesn't push the offseason handbook on it's users

I'm sorry, but why would Twins Daily crew be researching, generating unique content, editing, and publishing a e-book...then giving it away...for free.

Last time I checked, we lived in America.

I don't, but we still buy and sell e-books, despite being socialists.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-23-2012, 12:27 PM
It's a pretty thin market, there are no true "aces" on the market this year, Greinke is as close as that gets I suppose, otherwise there are a few #2's (Marcum, Peavvy, Sanchez, Lohse??) and the rest arelow end #3's and solid #4's (Kuroda, Jackson,) though low end #3's and solid #4's would be a huge upgrade for us...

TwinVike61
10-23-2012, 12:36 PM
P.S. Who is this pitcher Will Chase?

I don't know but we shouldn't go trading Willy Nilly for him.;)

mike wants wins
10-23-2012, 12:40 PM
Awesome post twinsnoeth49

Jim Crikket
10-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I don't care what you call it, thin or deep, there aren't a ton of names on the list of FA starting pitchers that I'd get all excited about. So while there may be a deep market in terms of quantity of pitchers likely to get pretty good paydays, I'd sure like to see more legitimate top of the rotation arms on the list. I think the Twins rotation has been so bad that mediocrity looks really good by comparison. A discussion of any one of the pitchers on the list will come with a "yeah, but..." at the end.

I'm glad Ryan and his staff recognize the obvious... that their rotation is an abomination that must be fixed from outside the organization. Most of us recognized that fact at least a year ago and maybe if Ryan hadn't come so late to the party, he would have added real rotation help a year ago and the hole he now has to dig out of wouldn't be so deep.

Riverbrian
10-23-2012, 01:08 PM
Thick or thin... We can't sign them all... Mr. Ryan... Pick your favorites and bid aggressive.

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Does anyone remember what our starting rotation was supposed to be when we broke camp? Wasn't it, in no particular order, Pavano, Liriano, Marquis, Blackburn and Baker (who never pitched this season) How many of those guys, along with guys like Swarzak and Duensing, were Ryan's and how many were Smiths?

As we go into next season, we have one sure thing...Diamond. Is he Smith's or Ryan's?

DAM DC Twins Fans
10-23-2012, 01:20 PM
This is the crop of FA starters. Some others may have options declined or released or just wouldn't likely fit, rumored trouble makers or injured.
When nearly every team needs pitching this is a very thin list.




2012 war based on 80+ innings



Erik Bedard (34)

1.3



Joe Blanton (32)

2.4



Kevin Correia (32)

.8



Ryan Dempster (36)

3.3



Zack Greinke (28)

5.1



Dan Haren (32)

1.8



Edwin Jackson (29)

2.7



Hiroki Kuroda (38)

3.9



Kyle Lohse (34)

3.6



Paul Maholm (31)

2.5



Shaun Marcum (31)

1.4



Brandon McCarthy (29)

1.8



Kevin Millwood (38)

2.0



Anibal Sanchez (29)

3.8



Ervin Santana (30)

-.9



Joe Saunders (32)

2.5





I call this thin. The only ace on this list is Grienke--he wont come here and he is a borderline ace. The only number 2 are Sanchez and Haren. All of the rest are Pavano (of a couple of years ago) or Baker level. None are worth more than $30 million over 3 years. Avoid Lohse, Santana, McCarthy, Jackson, Millwood and Dempster like they have the plague. Maybe I would sign one of the others for $25million over 2 years and expect a mediocre number 3.

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 01:33 PM
Haren had an off year for sure...or off first half...but I'd label him as a guy who has ACE stuff. He's a guy you normally get over 200 IP near 200Ks and an ERA low to mid 3.00s. I'd take that especially from a AL pitcher

mike wants wins
10-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Is that list any worse than the last 5 years, though?

nicksaviking
10-23-2012, 03:09 PM
Add Haren and Peavy and the list looks pretty damn good.

Ryan didn't give away a lot, but when asked if he plans on offering multi-year deals to pitchers, he said you can't sign one if you don't.

That is somewhat telling and possibly encouraging seeing as he has not used that philosophy in the past. It reminds me of early in the year when he was questioned about drafting control verses power arms in the draft. He (fibbed and) said the team always valued power arms. Previously it was obvious they did not, but after the draft it was obvious they had changed philosophy. I hope his suggestion about multi-year deals for pitchers is another stubborn change.

twinsnorth49
10-23-2012, 03:14 PM
Here's last years crop, 31 available starting pitchers average age (throwing out Wakefield) 31.87, aces? Some might debate Wilson, I won't. This year, 16 available, average age, 32.18, aces? Grienke appears debatable, he's closer than Wilson in my mind.

With the greatest over-riding factor being every team needs and wants better starting pitching, this is a pretty thin list by comparison. Trades are definitely going to be the order of the day, especially considering the guy we ended up with from last year's, "deeper" list, was Jason Marquis!







Erik Bedard
32




Andrew Brackman
26




Mark Buehrle
32




Chris Capuano
33




Bruce Chen
34




Bartolo Colon
38




Aaron Cook
32




Yu Darvish
25




Jeff Francis
30




Freddy Garcia
35




Jon Garland
32




Aaron Harang
33




Rich Harden
29




Livan Hernandez
36




Hisashi Iwakuma
30




Edwin Jackson
28




Hiroki Kuroda
36




Rodrigo Lopez
35




Paul Maholm
29




Jason Marquis
33




Kevin Millwood
36




Roy Oswalt
34




Micah Owings
29




Brad Penny
33




Joel Pineiro
33




Jo-Jo Reyes
27




Joe Saunders
30




Javier Vazquez
35




Tsuyoshi Wada
30




Tim Wakefield
45




Chien-Ming Wang
31




Brandon Webb
32




Dontrelle Willis
29




C.J. Wilson
30




Chris Young

Shane Wahl
10-23-2012, 05:15 PM
This is the crop of FA starters. Some others may have options declined or released or just wouldn't likely fit, rumored trouble makers or injured.
When nearly every team needs pitching this is a very thin list.




2012 war based on 80+ innings


Erik Bedard (34)
1.3


Joe Blanton (32)
2.4


Kevin Correia (32)
.8


Ryan Dempster (36)
3.3


Zack Greinke (28)
5.1


Dan Haren (32)
1.8


Edwin Jackson (29)
2.7


Hiroki Kuroda (38)
3.9


Kyle Lohse (34)
3.6


Paul Maholm (31)
2.5


Shaun Marcum (31)
1.4


Brandon McCarthy (29)
1.8


Kevin Millwood (38)
2.0


Anibal Sanchez (29)
3.8


Ervin Santana (30)
-.9


Joe Saunders (32)
2.5




Thanks for posting this. I believe that the Twins should, realistically, contend for both Jackson and Marcum. But I think that they WILL pursue two of: Marcum, McCarthy, Saunders, Blanton, Maholm (please no!) and Santana. Santana's 2013 is not going to be that bad. He is likely to have a strong bounceback season. Greinke, Haren, Sanchez, and Dempster are going to be out of reach unless the Twins only add one pitcher, and even then, only Greinke fits the bill. I don't actually believe that pursuing one top top guy is better than pursuing two second-tier guys, honestly.

Shane Wahl
10-23-2012, 05:18 PM
For people who doubt based on Josh Willingham's contract blah, blah, blah . . . the Twins have money to spend and need to spend it, especially, for the millionth time, that after 2013, the payroll REALLY drops significantly and hopefully in 2014, 2015, and 2016, the vast majority of the non-Mauer roster is composed on sub $1 million players like Sano, Rosario, Arcia, Hicks, Benson, Gibson, Hendriks, Salcedo, Berrios, Harrison, Boyd, etc.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-23-2012, 05:29 PM
For people who doubt based on Josh Willingham's contract blah, blah, blah . . . the Twins have money to spend and need to spend it, especially, for the millionth time, that after 2013, the payroll REALLY drops significantly and hopefully in 2014, 2015, and 2016, the vast majority of the non-Mauer roster is composed on sub $1 million players like Sano, Rosario, Arcia, Hicks, Benson, Gibson, Hendriks, Salcedo, Berrios, Harrison, Boyd, etc.

Blah, blah, blah... the Twins history of not doling out large contracts to FA, especially pitchers, would lead one to expect the Twins will not sign a major pitching name this offseason, rather they will sign 1-2 back-end starters for 1-2 years, $5-7 mil per season. Opinions from the Twins fans regarding the amount of money the team has to spend this year can't possibly have any value as their payroll budget has not been released yet.

Riverbrian
10-23-2012, 06:06 PM
I gotta agree with Shane here.... We have one pitcher in Diamond slotted for the 2013 rotation right now. We have money coming off the books. Not signing at least half way decent arms would be criminal. Any GM in the land can see this. Even if you throwing away 2013 for a 2014 or 2015 build. You still have to spend some FA dollars this year with contracts that roll into the years that follow.

We all know the past history. It simply doesn't apply right now. If we don't make significant additions to the pitching staff in the off season. I swear to all... I will make Thrylos look pale when I personally assess Terrry Ryan.

That should scare them... riverbrian will type nasty stuff.

bobonewsome
10-23-2012, 06:19 PM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

ScottyB
10-23-2012, 06:38 PM
I'll throw one more log on the fire - Hisahi Iwakuma (31) & 1.9 WAR. Twins went after him hard when there was a posting fee and lost out to the A's. He played out his time in Japan, became a free-agent, signed a 1-year deal with the Mariners ($1.5M) and was 9-5; 1.28 WHIP; 3.16 ERA. Started the year in the pen and ended in the rotation - 16 games started and 125.1 Innings. Now that there's no posting fee and he had decent stats, why wouldn't the Twins go after him? Low on radar, decent on potential.

Thrylos
10-23-2012, 06:43 PM
I think that it is thin in quality not quantity. And the Twins in order to be competitive need at least 3 pitchers better than Diamond. How many of them are available as Free Agents. Heck, how many of the free agents available are better than a fixed Baker? So, yeah... pretty thin in quality. The trade marker on the other hand is a different story.

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 07:09 PM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 07:11 PM
For people who doubt based on Josh Willingham's contract blah, blah, blah . . . the Twins have money to spend and need to spend it, especially, for the millionth time, that after 2013, the payroll REALLY drops significantly and hopefully in 2014, 2015, and 2016, the vast majority of the non-Mauer roster is composed on sub $1 million players like Sano, Rosario, Arcia, Hicks, Benson, Gibson, Hendriks, Salcedo, Berrios, Harrison, Boyd, etc.

Didn't the Twins have money to spend on pitching this offseason? They dropped payroll by 18M...

PseudoSABR
10-23-2012, 07:44 PM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies?

iastfan112
10-23-2012, 07:54 PM
Give me a Brandon McCarthy, not a sexy signing by any means but I think A.) He'll come cheap due to injury and playing in Oakland and B.) He seems like a Twins type pitcher.

If the Twins had the money to swing it Haren's pretty attractive as well. Pretty close to ace quality typically. If they want to go complete bargain bin give me Bedard.

70charger
10-23-2012, 10:25 PM
Give me a Brandon McCarthy, not a sexy signing by any means but I think A.) He'll come cheap due to injury and playing in Oakland and B.) He seems like a Twins type pitcher.

If the Twins had the money to swing it Haren's pretty attractive as well. Pretty close to ace quality typically. If they want to go complete bargain bin give me Bedard.

I agree with all of these things. If this is the direction they ended up going, I would be content.

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies?

When he trade Castillo, he said he only traded him cause "I didn't anticipate re-signing him at the end [of the season], so we ended up getting a couple players in return before October,". Then a day or two later he said he would have traded him even if he wasn't a pending free agent.

So one of those statements is a lie.

ThePuck
10-23-2012, 10:50 PM
'Give me a Brandon McCarthy, not a sexy signing by any means but I think A.) He'll come cheap due to injury and playing in Oakland and B.) He seems like a Twins type pitcher.'


Yes, he is a pitch to contact, low strike out pitcher

PseudoSABR
10-23-2012, 11:10 PM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies?

When he trade Castillo, he said he only traded him cause "I didn't anticipate re-signing him at the end [of the season], so we ended up getting a couple players in return before October,". Then a day or two later he said he would have traded him even if he wasn't a pending free agent.

So one of those statements is a lie.That's pretty thin, especially without a quote to support the second assertion. Even if he made the two assertions, I'm not sure it makes TR a straight up liar. The first quote can be found here (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070730&content_id=2118948&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min) for those curious.

Kwak
10-23-2012, 11:12 PM
A risk of a long contract (4+ years) on a pitcher makes sense. The Twins will need someone to serve as an anchor in the rotation to demonstrate that there is stability and that the team is actually rebuilding as opposed to just "plugging holes". Consider what DET did after their debacle of a 43 win season. They way overpaid for Ordonez, but that showed that management was building a foundation to win consistently. True, they did get extremely lucky to land Verlander, but many teams have made a great leap forward by adding one player--maybe the Twins will (someday)? But, they need to start building a foundation for the rotation--Now!

notoriousgod71
10-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Great, Joe Saunders or Jeremy Guthrie it is. Color me unimpressed.

Cris E
10-23-2012, 11:36 PM
Mark Buerhle has three expensive years left, but if the Fish were offered real players or prospects he might come with a scholarship. I'd make that call to find out

Otwins
10-23-2012, 11:43 PM
Guthrie is a definite upgrade. Pitched well when he got out of Coors. Pitched solid in AL East which is more than any of our pitchers could do. No ace but we aren't getting three aces.

Shane Wahl
10-24-2012, 12:07 AM
I don't understand any desire to have McCarthy. Another guy who doesn't strike anybody out. The Twins should honestly restrict their search to pitchers with 7+ k/9. I will leave it to someone else to narrow that list down . . .

But it is CLEAR to me that these 5 or 6 k/9 pitchers should not be ADDED to the rotation. Doesn't anyone remember Santana and Liriano? Even Boof!? To rely on the Diamonds and Radkes is not going to be good. Those are guys who serve well as the 3rd pitcher. Jackson at 3/33 and Marcum at 2/16 could get the job done. Just saying.

Shane Wahl
10-24-2012, 12:14 AM
Jeremy Guthrie is not very good. FYI. Same with Saunders. Seriously, there is NO point signing these guys as opposed to turning to Deduno, DeVries, Walters, Hendriks, or even Bromberg (who *should* be considered, given that he was actually quite good through 2010). The result is going to be about the EXACT same for millions less if they go in-house. The Twins should stick to second-tier pitchers, not third or fourth tier. They have plenty of third and fourth-tier pitchers right now.

Shane Wahl
10-24-2012, 12:30 AM
The market has been weird. Consider the difference last offseason between the Mark Buerhle signing and the Edwin Jackson signing. To me a comparable situation might occur this year with Dan Haren and Shaun Marcum. And the difference in performance between those two groups of pitchers is NOT $30-40 million over 3-4 years.

Doesn't it seem like there is the following:

Tier One:
Grienke
A. Sanchez
Dempster
Haren
Peavy (I guess)

Tier two:
Jackson
Kuroda
Lohse
Marcum

Tier three:
Blanton
Saunders
McCarthy
Bedard
Maholm
Millwood
Santana
Correia

I submit that Santana might be worth giving a shot out of tier three, but I just don't like bothering with any of those other guys when millions of dollars would be wasted for replacement level pitching.

old nurse
10-24-2012, 12:31 AM
I think that it is thin in quality not quantity. And the Twins in order to be competitive need at least 3 pitchers better than Diamond. How many of them are available as Free Agents. Heck, how many of the free agents available are better than a fixed Baker? So, yeah... pretty thin in quality. The trade marker on the other hand is a different story.

WAR seems to be a big deal on this thread. By Fangraphs WAR, the Twins would have a difficult time signing three pitchers better than Diamond

Shane Wahl
10-24-2012, 12:51 AM
I think that it is thin in quality not quantity. And the Twins in order to be competitive need at least 3 pitchers better than Diamond. How many of them are available as Free Agents. Heck, how many of the free agents available are better than a fixed Baker? So, yeah... pretty thin in quality. The trade marker on the other hand is a different story.

WAR seems to be a big deal on this thread. By Fangraphs WAR, the Twins would have a difficult time signing three pitchers better than Diamond

Yeah. First, the available pitchers above Diamond are: Greinke, Peavy, Kuroda, Sanchez, Lohse, Dempster, and Jackson. Second, no more than one of those pitchers are even possibly coming to the Twins. Dumping Gardy and Andy to get Lohse might have been worth it. Jackson would be. But alas.

I don't expect Diamond to repeat, but I also don't think his performance is going to fall very much.

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 08:54 AM
Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.

Ryan has been caught in a straight up lie more than once...I'd like to see evidence of this. I'm sure he's guilty of misrepresentations, half-truths, distortions, but "straight up" lies?

When he trade Castillo, he said he only traded him cause "I didn't anticipate re-signing him at the end [of the season], so we ended up getting a couple players in return before October,". Then a day or two later he said he would have traded him even if he wasn't a pending free agent.

So one of those statements is a lie.That's pretty thin, especially without a quote to support the second assertion. Even if he made the two assertions, I'm not sure it makes TR a straight up liar. The first quote can be found here (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070730&content_id=2118948&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min) for those curious.

It happen how long ago, now? Took me forever to find the first quote...but this isn't the first time this has come up in conversations about him so it wasn't hard to remember. I remember him saying it live and reading it afterwards and saying, um, wait a minute. Just a couple days ago he said the reason he traded him was cause he didn't envision him re-signing him and now he says THIS?

But it really doesn't matter, believe it, don't believe it, that's on you. I know what he said and didn't....and I don't trust him at all

PseudoSABR
10-24-2012, 01:46 PM
But it really doesn't matter, believe it, don't believe it, that's on you. I know what he said and didn't....and I don't trust him at allFair enough. I just tend to give people a bit of slack when they are also playing the PR game after a publicly denounced transaction. I just don't think there's really any reason to mistrust TR more than any other GM or Manager; I think some of the job involves PR-speak; in fact, TR has struck me as one of the more straight forward guys in the industry.

Top Gun
10-24-2012, 02:02 PM
According to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com, the Marlins have received permission from the Blue Jays to interview Mike Redmond for their managerial vacancy.

Redmond, who played with the Marlins from 1998-2004, is currently the manager with Class-A Dunedin. Joe Frisaro of MLB.com has called him "a strong frontrunner" for the job, but Dodgers third base coach Tim Wallach and Reds pitching coach Bryan Price are also in the mix. Other candidates could still emerge in the days ahead.


Source: CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/20665973/early-marlins-call-goes-to-ex-catcher-redmond-he-could-replace-guillen)

Jim Crikket
10-24-2012, 02:09 PM
But it really doesn't matter, believe it, don't believe it, that's on you. I know what he said and didn't....and I don't trust him at allFair enough. I just tend to give people a bit of slack when they are also playing the PR game after a publicly denounced transaction. I just don't think there's really any reason to mistrust TR more than any other GM or Manager; I think some of the job involves PR-speak; in fact, TR has struck me as one of the more straight forward guys in the industry.

I totally agree. I certainly don't agree with every decision he makes or even the way he goes about making those decisions in every case, but I've always considered him pretty much a straight shooter. He won't answer every question and he'd be an idiot if he didn't occasionally give indications of one thing publicly (where competitors will hear/read what he says) while doing something a little different behind the scenes. If some fans think he should always be 100% open with us about his business dealings, that's their problem. Business does not work that way.

TG: I'd be thrilled for Redmond if he actually got a MLB manager's job already, even if it was working for the screwball owner in Miami.

DAM DC Twins Fans
10-24-2012, 02:28 PM
According to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com, the Marlins have received permission from the Blue Jays to interview Mike Redmond for their managerial vacancy.

Redmond, who played with the Marlins from 1998-2004, is currently the manager with Class-A Dunedin. Joe Frisaro of MLB.com has called him "a strong frontrunner" for the job, but Dodgers third base coach Tim Wallach and Reds pitching coach Bryan Price are also in the mix. Other candidates could still emerge in the days ahead.


Source: CBSSports.com (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/20665973/early-marlins-call-goes-to-ex-catcher-redmond-he-could-replace-guillen)

Good for Naked BP (for those of us BatGirl alums). I hope Mickey gets the job...though I read in Washington Examiner the next Fish mgr. will be their 5th in 3 years.

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 02:33 PM
If some fans think he should always be 100% open with us about his business dealings, that's their problem. Business does not work that way.



This part of the discussion all started when someone wrote: 'Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.' And I said I wouldn't because I felt he was caught straight up in a lie before and that I just don't trust him at his word.

So regardless of how open or truthful you think he SHOULD be with the fans is irrelevant to the discussion..the guy was saying he'd trust what Ryan says over someone else, I said I wouldn't. Whether he should be truthful or not is another issue entirely.

One could say lying, in general, is wrong...that lying to fans of the team you work for is wrong...but I guess that's a morals thing. If he doesn't want to answer the question so as not to let info out to other teams, that's one thing. Lying to fans is different.

notoriousgod71
10-24-2012, 06:01 PM
The market has been weird. Consider the difference last offseason between the Mark Buerhle signing and the Edwin Jackson signing. To me a comparable situation might occur this year with Dan Haren and Shaun Marcum. And the difference in performance between those two groups of pitchers is NOT $30-40 million over 3-4 years.

Doesn't it seem like there is the following:

Tier One:
Grienke
A. Sanchez
Dempster
Haren
Peavy (I guess)

Tier two:
Jackson
Kuroda
Lohse
Marcum

Tier three:
Blanton
Saunders
McCarthy
Bedard
Maholm
Millwood
Santana
Correia

I submit that Santana might be worth giving a shot out of tier three, but I just don't like bothering with any of those other guys when millions of dollars would be wasted for replacement level pitching.

Tier three is garbage. Just ignore it.

twinsnorth49
10-24-2012, 07:13 PM
If some fans think he should always be 100% open with us about his business dealings, that's their problem. Business does not work that way./QUOTE]



[QUOTE=ThePuck;59623]This part of the discussion all started when someone wrote: 'Sorry John, but when it comes down to who are you going to believe, I'll take Ryan.' And I said I wouldn't because I felt he was caught straight up in a lie before and that I just don't trust him at his word.

So regardless of how open or truthful you think he SHOULD be with the fans is irrelevant to the discussion..the guy was saying he'd trust what Ryan says over someone else, I said I wouldn't. Whether he should be truthful or not is another issue entirely.

One could say lying, in general, is wrong...that lying to fans of the team you work for is wrong...but I guess that's a morals thing. If he doesn't want to answer the question so as not to let info out to other teams, that's one thing. Lying to fans is different.

One could say, in general, this is a load of crap. When was it that Terry Ryan directly lied to you as a Twins fan?

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 07:15 PM
I don't care if you think it's a load of crap, but I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to re-post or can you find it yourself? Oh, and I LOVE how people talk all big, bad and rude on the internet...gives me goosebumps.

twinsnorth49
10-24-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm sorry, I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to repost?

No, I read it, if that's the best you've got, I think you need to keep looking.

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm sorry, I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to repost?

No, I read it, if that's the best you've got, I think you need to keep looking.

Thanks for your opinion...

twinsnorth49
10-24-2012, 07:55 PM
I don't care if you think it's a load of crap, but I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to re-post or can you find it yourself? Oh, and I LOVE how people talk all big, bad and rude on the internet...gives me goosebumps.


Seriously?

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 07:58 PM
I don't care if you think it's a load of crap, but I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to re-post or can you find it yourself? Oh, and I LOVE how people talk all big, bad and rude on the internet...gives me goosebumps.


Seriously?

Do you like having people you don't know and haven't had any interaction with call what you wrote a load of crap? Is that just normal polite talk where you come from?

twinsnorth49
10-24-2012, 08:16 PM
I don't care if you think it's a load of crap, but I believe I already gave an example above...do I need to re-post or can you find it yourself? Oh, and I LOVE how people talk all big, bad and rude on the internet...gives me goosebumps.




Seriously?

Do you like having people you don't know and haven't had any interaction with call what you wrote a load of crap? Is that just normal polite talk where you come from?

Calling people you don't know straight-up liars is polite talk? Ok, my apologies then, I concede.

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 08:21 PM
I posted what I interpreted as a sound example of straight up lying...apparently some disagree, you being one of them I see...but that's a difference of opinion. As I see it, it was straight up lying...so I called it that way. I am, of course, open to the idea I'm wrong though...always have been, but I haven't seen any convincing argument that I misinterpreted...certainly someone saying what I wrote was a load of crap isn't a convincing argument...

And I don't think one lie makes one a liar all the time...I believe his comment was a straight up lie, not that he's a straight up liar.

ScottyB
10-24-2012, 08:29 PM
Okay boys. Enough of the fighting. Back to topic.

twinsnorth49
10-24-2012, 08:46 PM
I posted what I interpreted as a sound example of straight up lying...apparently some disagree, you being one of them I see...but that's a difference of opinion. As I see it, it was straight up lying...so I called it that way. I am, of course, open to the idea I'm wrong though...always have been, but I haven't seen any convincing argument that I misinterpreted...certainly someone saying what I wrote was a load of crap isn't a convincing argument...

And I don't think one lie makes one a liar all the time...I believe his comment was a straight up lie, not that he's a straight up liar.

Ok, crap was a bit harsh, I take it back, actually I enjoy most of what you write. Do you not think it's possible though, in the example you gave, that Ryan was merely just stating that he traded Castillo because he knew he wasn't going to re-sign him period and that he was just getting some return for him while he could? I think it could be interpreted that way and over the course of two interviews it just came out differently.

Maybe his second statement had something to do with feeling his first statement embarrassed Minaya in some way, who knows.

ThePuck
10-24-2012, 08:50 PM
Fair enough...and perhaps you're right. I don't agree, but I can see where one might give want to give him the benefit of the doubt. As for the rest, perhaps I overreacted. I apologize for that. And thanks for compliment as well.

ScottyB
10-25-2012, 12:05 AM
That's better - I knew you guys could make nice.

Jim Crikket
10-25-2012, 09:47 AM
Not that I really want to extend this discussion, but I'd just add that whenever I see a couple of quotes on the same topic that aren't 100% in sync, I also consider the possibility that one (or both) reporters only used a portion of the statements the subject actually made during the interview. It happens all the time and it does occasionally result in loss of context and apparent inconsistencies. Not saying the reporters cause the problem intentionally, because they're occasionally limited somewhat in how many words their editors allow them for a given story (less of an issue today, perhaps, than it might have been a few years ago when the particular trade in question went down). They pick the 1-2 sentences in a quote that they feel works best for a given story. Different reporters can listen to the same comments and end up using completely different snippets for their respective stories. Just something to consider.

[EDIT] Thought I would add examples of what I'm talking about: After Game 1 of the WS Wed night, Jim Leyland talked to reporters about Valverde: "He wasn't terrible, he just wasn't good." If one reporter just uses the quote, "He wasn't terrible," and another just uses, "he just wasn't good," you get two very different impressions of what Leyland thinks about his former closer's performance. I think I heard another quote late last night (but don't hold me to it) from someone who said something like,"you can't take anything away from the Giants, they were very good tonight. At the same time, obviously Verlander was a bit rusty after the long layoff." Same thing there, if a reporter only uses part of that quote, it sounds like the Tigers are just tipping their caps to the Giants. If just the last line is used, it sounds like they're making excuses and not crediting the Giants at all.

bobonewsome
10-25-2012, 02:18 PM
Actually,my comment was regarding talent evaluation. I would not disparage the honesty of either man. My apologies.

beckmt
10-25-2012, 03:20 PM
I also believe tier 3 will not help, you might as well use Hendricks or another Twins farmhand. I believe Twins will sign 1 Tier 2, make a trade for one or two major league ready pitcher types and sign 1 from the Tier 3 list. That will be lucky to get the job done, but not impossible. Baker may be the Tire 3 or rebound type. That has at least a chance of working.