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View Full Version : Should Twins Go After Clubhouse Cancer Yunel Escobar?



ScottyB
10-21-2012, 05:50 PM
With Mike Aviles going to the Blue Jays as part of the Ferrell deal, it probably makes Escobar available. (Although first indications are for Aviles to play 2B or UT.) Knowing his history, is Escobar enough of an upgrade for the Twins to inquire?

Thrylos
10-21-2012, 06:07 PM
"clubhouse cancer"
so I am sure that you made up your mind based on that characterization...

The issue with Escobar (that one, not the Twins' one) is his play. Below par and Florimon is better. So that's that

and as far as "clubhouse cancers" go, the manager of the millennium is the biggest...

PseudoSABR
10-21-2012, 06:11 PM
"clubhouse cancer"
so I am sure that you made up your mind based on that characterization...

The issue with Escobar (that one, not the Twins' one) is his play. Below par and Florimon is better. So that's that

and as far as "clubhouse cancers" go, the manager of the millennium is the biggest...
I think the dude was being sarcastic with the clubhouse cancer comment (or noting that he'd come cheaply because of that rep), but sinceyou lack a sense humor, so I can see how you could miss that.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-21-2012, 07:34 PM
Thrylos is the cancer killing this forum.

ScottyB
10-21-2012, 07:39 PM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.

Thrylos
10-21-2012, 07:51 PM
Thrylos is the cancer killing this forum.

last time I checked this forum has been happy and aye-live (and killing it in ad revenues ;) )

Riverbrian
10-21-2012, 07:59 PM
Talented Young SS's are not given up unless they have a problem. Plenty of reports about Escobar being an attitude mess and you can assume that is why he is not handling SS for Atlanta right now. Alex Gonzalez was older and a lesser talent. Pastornicky is a fairly decent prospect but to me the trade looked like ridding yourself of someone for a left hander.

As for clubhouse cancers. They are fine if you are winning. They are a nightmare if you are losing. With this pitching staff... I believe Escobar would be a mistake for the Twins.

Besides... Too many Escobars on the roster would confuse me.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
10-21-2012, 08:53 PM
I'd really like to see a professional team full of "clubhouse cancers" one of these days....actually an argument could be made for the New York Jets. Ok I really mean a successful team full of cancer. Maybe I just like the idea of 10+ wrongs making a right.:)

johnnydakota
10-21-2012, 10:24 PM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.
you think because a person doesnt like management or ownership , or if a person expects more then what the twins will do they should change teams???? hears a little tip , if you dont like what he writes dont read it ....but most learned fans whos noses arnt attached to management rear end know its time for new blood, as for trading for a shortstop why go after a 29 year old if we are not going after 2 front of the rotation pitchers? it will be plain to see if the front office wants to win or just wants to send up a smoke screen by what they pursue if pitching.....if its 2nd and 3rd tier inning eaters why sign a 29 year old when he will be retired before we have a decent starting rotation?

Riverbrian
10-21-2012, 11:07 PM
I'd really like to see a professional team full of "clubhouse cancers" one of these days....actually an argument could be made for the New York Jets. Ok I really mean a successful team full of cancer. Maybe I just like the idea of 10+ wrongs making a right.:)

lol... It would be an interesting team to watch.

C AJ
1B Adam Dunn
2B Yunel Escobar
3B Hanley
SS Jose Reyes
LF Colby Rasmus
CF BJ Upton
RF Justin Upton
DH Delmon

Manny and Milton on the bench. Stephen Drew and JD Drew on the bench.

Carlos Zambrano on the mound... Josh Beckett. K rod in the pen.

Or we can just look at the Red Sox and Marlins this year... Start with those clubs and make them worse.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-21-2012, 11:13 PM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.
you think because a person doesnt like management or ownership , or if a person expects more then what the twins will do they should change teams???? hears a little tip , if you dont like what he writes dont read it ....but most learned fans whos noses arnt attached to management rear end know its time for new blood, as for trading for a shortstop why go after a 29 year old if we are not going after 2 front of the rotation pitchers? it will be plain to see if the front office wants to win or just wants to send up a smoke screen by what they pursue if pitching.....if its 2nd and 3rd tier inning eaters why sign a 29 year old when he will be retired before we have a decent starting rotation?

well eye certinley cant' arguu wit tht logic...

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-21-2012, 11:17 PM
The problem with Escobar IMO is he just isn't very good, is he better then what we have? Probably, but he isn't a good enough player to deal with the headaches. That thing he did with his eye black was one of the more dumb things I have heard an athlete do in quite some time.


In 2011 he had a nice season no doubt, but his .644 and .655 OPS surrounding that season has me a bit skeptical, he is however a slick fielder, just to much baggage IMO, maybe if the Twins are in the hunt around the deadline you trade for him, but bringing him in to be the starter from day 1 seems like a mistake to me.

kab21
10-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Yunel Escobar sucks?

Career .743 OPS with good defense.

Does anyone know another player with those numbers? J.J. Hardy.

Yunel is exactly the type of player the Twins should go after. He does sound like a jerk in the clubhouse but all indications are that he will be dumped by the Jays because of that attitude. And he's locked up for 1 more year with 2 5M options.

johnnydakota
10-21-2012, 11:49 PM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.
you think because a person doesnt like management or ownership , or if a person expects more then what the twins will do they should change teams???? hears a little tip , if you dont like what he writes dont read it ....but most learned fans whos noses arnt attached to management rear end know its time for new blood, as for trading for a shortstop why go after a 29 year old if we are not going after 2 front of the rotation pitchers? it will be plain to see if the front office wants to win or just wants to send up a smoke screen by what they pursue if pitching.....if its 2nd and 3rd tier inning eaters why sign a 29 year old when he will be retired before we have a decent starting rotation?

well eye certinley cant' arguu wit tht logic...

glad your on board cheers

old nurse
10-22-2012, 12:53 AM
Thrylos is the cancer killing this forum.

last time I checked this forum has been happy and aye-live (and killing it in ad revenues ;) )

Thyrlos. In spite of you they are doing well. For the most part it is the analytic ability of the organizers of this site, not the frequent posters that drive the intellectual content of the site. The minor league analysis provided by the posters like Cricket provide interesting perspective. What do you provide with your all to frequent negativity without analysis to back it (N.B. there has never been a manager of the millennium)? Ageism as an excuse is not analysis.

Rick Niedermann
10-22-2012, 06:12 AM
I don't know how you can't take a chance on this guy if he is available. Delmon was a cancer? Not really. He was just annoying. As was Orlando Hudson. But Gardy can deal with that if he hits you .275 and plays D. Escobar would be a huge upgrade over Floriman or the other Escobar.

Fire Dan Gladden
10-22-2012, 06:57 AM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.
you think because a person doesnt like management or ownership , or if a person expects more then what the twins will do they should change teams???? hears a little tip , if you dont like what he writes dont read it ....but most learned fans whos noses arnt attached to management rear end know its time for new blood, as for trading for a shortstop why go after a 29 year old if we are not going after 2 front of the rotation pitchers? it will be plain to see if the front office wants to win or just wants to send up a smoke screen by what they pursue if pitching.....if its 2nd and 3rd tier inning eaters why sign a 29 year old when he will be retired before we have a decent starting rotation?

Does anybody really think they could get 2 #1-2 starters today without gutting the minors and destroying their payroll? Where would that put them?

Higuys
10-22-2012, 07:11 AM
The Twins already have enough middle-infielders

ThePuck
10-22-2012, 07:58 AM
The Twins already have enough middle-infielders

Unfortunately, the only one who has shown himself to have somewhat major league starter quality talent is going to be 39 before spring training starts next year and has spent most of his career as a utility man.

LimestoneBaggy
10-22-2012, 08:42 AM
I'd really like to see a professional team full of "clubhouse cancers" one of these days....actually an argument could be made for the New York Jets. Ok I really mean a successful team full of cancer. Maybe I just like the idea of 10+ wrongs making a right.:)

lol... It would be an interesting team to watch.

C AJ
1B Adam Dunn
2B Yunel Escobar
3B Hanley
SS Jose Reyes
LF Colby Rasmus
CF BJ Upton
RF Justin Upton
DH Delmon

Manny and Milton on the bench. Stephen Drew and JD Drew on the bench.

Carlos Zambrano on the mound... Josh Beckett. K rod in the pen.

Or we can just look at the Red Sox and Marlins this year... Start with those clubs and make them worse.

Can we trade Delmon, but keep his moustache on the team?

mike wants wins
10-22-2012, 08:49 AM
Love all the personal attacks.

Just.

awesome.

as for the topic, no. Without pitching, signing a 29 year old fielder makes no sense.

ScottyB
10-22-2012, 09:06 AM
well eye certinley cant' arguu wit tht logic...

I believe it's spelled 'lojik'

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-22-2012, 09:58 AM
Yunel Escobar sucks?

Career .743 OPS with good defense.



I'm more curious of that .655 and .644 OPS in two of the past 3 seasons. Also I'm not a fan of signing idiot homophobes to this team.

kab21
10-22-2012, 10:30 AM
Yunel Escobar sucks?

Career .743 OPS with good defense.



I'm more curious of that .655 and .644 OPS in two of the past 3 seasons. Also I'm not a fan of signing idiot homophobes to this team.

The Twins MI OPS'd .590 last year. His DOWN years look pretty damn good imo.

nicksaviking
10-22-2012, 10:54 AM
Yunel Escobar sucks?

Career .743 OPS with good defense.



I'm more curious of that .655 and .644 OPS in two of the past 3 seasons. Also I'm not a fan of signing idiot homophobes to this team.

The Twins MI OPS'd .590 last year. His DOWN years look pretty damn good imo.

Those down years took place hitter happy Toronto, the city where journymen vets go to suddenly become offensive anomolies. Yet Escobar does not thrive for some reason. A reputation for a poor attitude and diminishing offensive ability probably aren't things that will help a losing team turn things around.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-22-2012, 11:51 AM
Yunel Escobar sucks?

Career .743 OPS with good defense.



I'm more curious of that .655 and .644 OPS in two of the past 3 seasons. Also I'm not a fan of signing idiot homophobes to this team.

The Twins MI OPS'd .590 last year. His DOWN years look pretty damn good imo.

Oh yay, no we are back to the "well X player is better then Nishioka, or Y player is better then Butera" argument. Would escobar be better then what the Twins have in house? Highly likely, but they need to be aiming higher and better. Plus like I mentioned, I personally would prefer they not sign some moronic homophobe.

ThePuck
10-22-2012, 12:03 PM
Those down years took place hitter happy Toronto, the city where journymen vets go to suddenly become offensive anomolies. Yet Escobar does not thrive for some reason. A reputation for a poor attitude and diminishing offensive ability probably aren't things that will help a losing team turn things around.

Rogers center is a pretty neutral park, but their hitting coach preaches an aggressive approach to hitting. I hope Bruno does too.

johnnydakota
10-22-2012, 12:13 PM
Thrylos just wanted to get his point across in this post that he doesn't like ownership, doesn't like the GM, doesn't like the manager, just like he does in every other post. I believe he thinks we just don't get his dislike of the current regime.

Thry - we get it. It's why you are approaching 1900 posts. Clearly there's nothing you like about the Twins, so why not just transfer your loyalties to the Phillies?

My point was that the Twins need a major upgrade at MI because Florimon, et al are clearly not the answer. Pseudo, you are correct, I believe we could get him cheaply because he is percieved as a cancer. $5-6M per season is about right for a decent (not great) SS, it's not far from what we should be paying JJ Hardy. Be that as it may, I do think that Escobar could be a disruptive force in the clubhouse. I also don't think that that should be an automatic disqualifier, if he can help this club back to respectability. He's only 29. I believe that the trade route will ultimately give us the answer at SS. This might be one avenue, but there might be other options out there if we use our organizational strength of outfield depth. Unfortunately, good outfielders are a dime a dozen and will be available on the open market.
you think because a person doesnt like management or ownership , or if a person expects more then what the twins will do they should change teams???? hears a little tip , if you dont like what he writes dont read it ....but most learned fans whos noses arnt attached to management rear end know its time for new blood, as for trading for a shortstop why go after a 29 year old if we are not going after 2 front of the rotation pitchers? it will be plain to see if the front office wants to win or just wants to send up a smoke screen by what they pursue if pitching.....if its 2nd and 3rd tier inning eaters why sign a 29 year old when he will be retired before we have a decent starting rotation?

Does anybody really think they could get 2 #1-2 starters today without gutting the minors and destroying their payroll? Where would that put them?

of our top 20 prospect i see maybe 7 or 8 who may posibly contribute and only 5 that may actually be more then bit players, the key word is maybe,so with tampa and miami in reduction mode jump at there 2 starters josh johnson and scott shields ..even if we only keep them for 4 months and then use them to rebuild our minors .the biggest mistake the front office can make is to sit back and see what falls to us ..now is the time to be aggressive ...if we aint going for it , then trade off what we got and build towards 2015 ,just stop blowing smoke up the fans a**es and claiming we will be competitive ...

twinsnorth49
10-22-2012, 01:10 PM
A 29 year old MI who isn't anywhere near a significant enough upgrade from what we already have, what is this discussion about, organizational depth? No thanks.

By the way, as far as Escobar being some raving homophobe, here is an interesting article from an entirely outside of baseball perspective. It is one of very cultural relevance however.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/yunel-escobars-slur-didnt-come-from-left-field/article4582951/

one_eyed_jack
10-22-2012, 10:03 PM
If he can be had for a song, it's worth considering.

As for the "he's not enough of an upgrade over what we have" argument - what do you at shortstop?

Go with Florimon? Or is there someone else you'd bring in?

I'm not convinced Florimon is the answer, and the list of available free agents is pretty weak.

One of the things Ryan needs to figure out is how to improve the team while giving up as little as possible. Seems like this has the potential to be the type of low risk/high reward move the Twins need to make.

USAFChief
10-22-2012, 10:21 PM
If he can be had for a song, it's worth considering.

As for the "he's not enough of an upgrade over what we have" argument - what do you at shortstop?

Go with Florimon? Or is there someone else you'd bring in?

I'm not convinced Florimon is the answer, and the list of available free agents is pretty weak.

One of the things Ryan needs to figure out is how to improve the team while giving up as little as possible. Seems like this has the potential to be the type of low risk/high reward move the Twins need to make.


Concur on all counts.

kab21
10-22-2012, 11:10 PM
Oh yay, no we are back to the "well X player is better then Nishioka, or Y player is better then Butera" argument. Would escobar be better then what the Twins have in house? Highly likely, but they need to be aiming higher and better. Plus like I mentioned, I personally would prefer they not sign some moronic homophobe.

he's significantly better than anything the Twins have had. And he's significantly better than anything available on the market unless you can get 55 yr old Marco Scutaro (my top target). This team needs players that are good at baseball and Yunel can hit a .700 OPS with good defense at SS. Start suggesting other ideas since Floriman, carroll, Dozier (there's still a little hope though), eddie escobar and anything else the Twins have suck.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-22-2012, 11:39 PM
Oh yay, no we are back to the "well X player is better then Nishioka, or Y player is better then Butera" argument. Would escobar be better then what the Twins have in house? Highly likely, but they need to be aiming higher and better. Plus like I mentioned, I personally would prefer they not sign some moronic homophobe.

he's significantly better than anything the Twins have had. And he's significantly better than anything available on the market unless you can get 55 yr old Marco Scutaro (my top target). This team needs players that are good at baseball and Yunel can hit a .700 OPS with good defense at SS. Start suggesting other ideas since Floriman, carroll, Dozier (there's still a little hope though), eddie escobar and anything else the Twins have suck.
Aim high.
Trade Span for Andrus.

kab21
10-23-2012, 12:22 AM
That would be awesome but unrealistic imo. Texas should trade for pitching and they need to.

I would have a backup plan in place if i were you.

JP3700
10-23-2012, 01:26 AM
His contract:
2013 - 5M
2014 - 5M club option no buyout
2015 - 5M club option no buyout

As long as we're not giving up too much, I think you have to trade for him. That contract is just way too good! Their bullpen is thin so if they're just asking for a cost controlled reliever or two I'd pull the trigger.

Worst case scenario - 2012 wasn't just an off year, his play continues to decline and our SS search continues in 2014 with 5M coming off the books

Best case scenario - 2012 was an off year and he plays like the 2007-2011 version of himself and we get a 3-4 WAR SS for 5M a year.. Up to 3 years.

Riverbrian
10-23-2012, 06:43 AM
If he can be had for a song, it's worth considering.

As for the "he's not enough of an upgrade over what we have" argument - what do you at shortstop?

Go with Florimon? Or is there someone else you'd bring in?

I'm not convinced Florimon is the answer, and the list of available free agents is pretty weak.

One of the things Ryan needs to figure out is how to improve the team while giving up as little as possible. Seems like this has the potential to be the type of low risk/high reward move the Twins need to make.

The Twins have moved every head case out the door over the years and have gotten very little in return for those head cases. It's a pretty strong guess that they(Gardenhire) don't want any.

Personally, I have never met the guy. On paper it looks like he has talent. I watched him play a handful of games with the Braves. I saw him dog a couple of plays and thought to myself "what the hell?". Hadn't read anything about him being a problem when I saw him dog it. Just eyeballed it.

Later I started reading some stuff about his attitude. Then he was given away to the Jays which is a pretty big clue.

I have seen a couple of Jays games and don't recall seeing him dog anything in a Jays uniform. I've read some attitude stuff but I don't know if its leftover stuff from the Braves and of course the pointless eye black thing which I don't care about... I just think it was a stupid thing to do. Pointless at a baseball game and doesn't mean anything by itself but it means a lot as its added to the collective.

That's all the info I have... Nothing first hand... Based on that... I'll take Florimon for awhile and hope to improve the position later.

Boom Boom
10-23-2012, 08:58 AM
If the choice is between Escobar and Florimon, I'd take Escobar. But my preference would be neither.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-23-2012, 09:08 AM
That would be awesome but unrealistic imo. Texas should trade for pitching and they need to.

I would have a backup plan in place if i were you.
First off, who knows how willing Toronto is going to be to trade him, and who knows what the cost will be? There is no guarantee they will take pennies on the dollar for him.

Here is my backup plan: Sign one of Kelly Johnson, Stephen Drew, Jeff Keppinger or Marco Scutaro. It's not like they NEED a SS, if they upgrade 2B they can live with Dozier/Carroll/Florimon etc at SS.

Twins Twerp
10-23-2012, 09:13 AM
Morneau for Escobar straight up? Would this be a good deal for the Twins, or just a salary dump?

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-23-2012, 09:54 AM
Morneau for Escobar straight up? Would this be a good deal for the Twins, or just a salary dump?

no way

lecroy24fan
10-23-2012, 10:35 AM
I want Keppinger.