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notoriousgod71
10-18-2012, 06:07 PM
This is how we should strive to build our team. Strikeout pitchers up and down the rotation and bullpen and a couple big hitters in the middle with no futility infielders.

All we have to do is trade our overrated prospects to cheap teams that want to shed salary. Detroit seems to rob Miami every season. Time for us to find a whipping boy. Hell, let's start with the Marlins!

glunn
10-19-2012, 12:26 AM
This is how we should strive to build our team. Strikeout pitchers up and down the rotation and bullpen and a couple big hitters in the middle with no futility infielders.

All we have to do is trade our overrated prospects to cheap teams that want to shed salary. Detroit seems to rob Miami every season. Time for us to find a whipping boy. Hell, let's start with the Marlins!

It sure seems like the Tigers are doing a lot of things better than the Twins, especially in terms of starters. Also, Delmon Young was just named MVP of the AL Championship series against the Yankees, which suggests that the Twins were the whipping boy in that trade.

I would love to hear some of the experts on TD analyze what the Twins might learn from the Tigers.

70charger
10-19-2012, 12:41 AM
First off, it helps if you draft a guy like Verlander. He was a #2 overall like Buxton, so maybe we're onto something there. On the other hand, the Marlins did get completely trade-raped on Cabrera, so I guess we can't emulate the Tigers just by sucking for high draft picks.

On the other hand, while getting to the World Series is great, I think they've crippled their future by getting rid of a lot of their best prospects (their farm team is in shambles), and they've definitely paid way too much for whatever remaining years Prince Fielder has (2, maybe 3?) before types 2, 3, and 4 diabetes set in. I wouldn't advocate copying that part.

mike wants wins
10-19-2012, 08:26 AM
Delmon Young was not good during the season. He was paid what Willingham was. Which would you rather have? They have a surplus of outfielders, if they trade one or more and they are successful, that does not mean they should have kept him. You really only need 3 or 4 at a time.

I agree that being willing to trade veterans and prospects to fill holes is a good strategy.

SweetOne69
10-19-2012, 08:28 AM
If the Detroit wins the WS, they will most likely start dumping payroll. Illitch has been going broke trying to get a World Series title out of the Tigers. He owns both the Red Wings and Tigers and was desperate to get a WS title before he dies. The Tigers have been losing $30-40M/year for the last few years in Illithch's efforts to win a title.

JB_Iowa
10-19-2012, 08:51 AM
It' s a matter of philosophy. The Tigers seem willing to suffer miserable seasons as long as they have a brief surge (1-3 years) once a decade. The Twins seem to prefer to idle along near the top but without ever taking the risks necessary to "reach for the star".

Neither approach is "right" -- it's a matter of what you can tolerate as a fan. Neither team has won a World Series in more than 20 years. The Twins won more recently and twice but the Tigers have advanced in the post-season more recently and have at least played in the World Series.

I knew where I came down on this question before the last 2 years and the misery of 2011 and 2012 haven't done anything to change my mind. I'd rather suffer multiple losing seasons to have a significant chance at "winning it all" than get to the playoffs regularly but never make it past the first round (or heck, with the Twins, the first game).

one_eyed_jack
10-19-2012, 08:53 AM
I'd say some of what the Tigers is worth looking at as a model.

The Fister and Sanchez trades helped build a solid rotation behind Verlander. Delmon and Peralta, though flawed players, were good pickups from divisional opponents selling low.

However, the Tigers needed some good fortune to get to where they are. Thanks largely to defensive ineptitude and inconsistent effort, they spent most of the year chasing a very mediocre Chicago team, and needed a late-season collapse said Whiteys to win baseball's weakest division.

2 other teams from the AL had more wins and didn't make the playoffs. The Tigers record would have earned them a 4th-place finish in either the East or West.

Thanks to the Rangers collapse, they were able to get to the World Series without having to beat the AL's best team. (For that matter, they're lucky that Baltimore couldn't put away a very weakened Yankee team, I think the O's would have given them a tougher time in the ALCS.)

So I'd like to see us improve through getting the better of trades the way they did, but I'm not sure their overall model is designed for sustained success. For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's. They've also been very willing to part with prospects, good chance that comes back to bite them eventually.

mike wants wins
10-19-2012, 09:09 AM
Eventually, sure, but in exchange for what? They are exchanging a future that may never come for a more certain present. That is what Hunter and Santana complained this team never does. It is what the White Sox GM said this team should have done.

Winston Smith
10-19-2012, 09:29 AM
Tigers have won 20 playoff games with 2 trips to the world series since the last Twins playoff game win.

one_eyed_jack
10-19-2012, 09:34 AM
Eventually, sure, but in exchange for what? They are exchanging a future that may never come for a more certain present. That is what Hunter and Santana complained this team never does. It is what the White Sox GM said this team should have done.


---But that doesn't always work either. They did that in '87 when they traded John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander. How did that work out for them? They lost in the first round of the playoffs, then spent most of the next decade-and-a-half or so in the crapper. (You think 2 years of losing is bad, try 16.)

Trading prospects for proven talent makes some amount of sense when you're one player away and have a stockpile of minor league talent. (The Yankees, for example, were able to trade for A-Rod without giving up Cano.) But going all-in and mortgaging your entire future is risky business. Its kind of like putting all of your chips on one number. You'll win big if it comes up, but you're left screwed with nothing if it doesn't.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-19-2012, 09:37 AM
The Tigers are not a good model, they barely won a terrible AL Central, and most of that was due to the Chicago White Sox completely falling apart down the stretch. They barely beat the A's and then faced a Yankees team that decided to forget how to hit.

I mean I am happy for the Tigers, but that are in some deep crap in the coming years.

Also, Delmon sucks, 4 good games doesn't make up for a TERRIBLE season.

mike wants wins
10-19-2012, 09:40 AM
I would never endorse trading all prospects, but occasionally trading one, yes. Like earlier this century, when they were a DH away.

Boom Boom
10-19-2012, 09:50 AM
For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.

Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

JB_Iowa
10-19-2012, 09:57 AM
It all comes down to risk-reward.

The Tigers have taken some big risks -- and have a pretty good chance at a huge reward this season. The risks don't bode well for a number of future seasons but that is something with which they will have to deal.

The Twins are almost entirely risk averse and have a very conservative approach to running the organization. I actually think this may be part of why Terry Ryan retired earlier. He had a huge risk facing him -- trading Santana -- and he made it pretty clear that he didn't think he was the best person to deal with it.

Now he's back but with a team that is in such shambles, he (and the owner) have to think that taking a conservative approach and simply returning the team to "competitiveness" will pacify the fans. He will still need to take smaller risks to acquire serviceable (note I didn't say good) starting pitching but it won't be the substantial risks that most teams have to take to be truly elite and compete in the post season.

I don't think one can "conserve" one's way to a world championship -- I think you have to take some pretty significant risks (and yes, have some good luck too). I just think the Twins are going to have to be more willing to gamble if they are ever to bring another championship to Minnesota. Is now the time to do that? I don't think its the time to go "all in" but I'd like some demonstration that they are willing to do a little gambling instead of skipping the casino altogether.

one_eyed_jack
10-19-2012, 10:09 AM
I can see the idea that you'd trade what the Twins have done recently for what the Tigers have done recently.

But if you're looking for someone to model after, wouldn't it be better to choose, say, the Cardinals as opposed to the Tigers? Unlike the Tigers, the Cards have actually won it all, and unlike the Tigers, they have been good almost every single year.

one_eyed_jack
10-19-2012, 10:11 AM
It all comes down to risk-reward.

The Tigers have taken some big risks -- and have a pretty good chance at a huge reward this season. The risks don't bode well for a number of future seasons but that is something with which they will have to deal.

The Twins are almost entirely risk averse and have a very conservative approach to running the organization. I actually think this may be part of why Terry Ryan retired earlier. He had a huge risk facing him -- trading Santana -- and he made it pretty clear that he didn't think he was the best person to deal with it.

Now he's back but with a team that is in such shambles, he (and the owner) have to think that taking a conservative approach and simply returning the team to "competitiveness" will pacify the fans. He will still need to take smaller risks to acquire serviceable (note I didn't say good) starting pitching but it won't be the substantial risks that most teams have to take to be truly elite and compete in the post season.

I don't think one can "conserve" one's way to a world championship -- I think you have to take some pretty significant risks (and yes, have some good luck too). I just think the Twins are going to have to be more willing to gamble if they are ever to bring another championship to Minnesota. Is now the time to do that? I don't think its the time to go "all in" but I'd like some demonstration that they are willing to do a little gambling instead of skipping the casino altogether.


---A lot of that risk is tied to money. The Tigers have consistently had a top-5 payroll while the Twins, until recently, operated on a shoestring budget. You're a lot more likely to win big playing at a high-stakes blackjack table than you are playing nickel slots.

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 10:18 AM
Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.

Badsmerf
10-19-2012, 10:37 AM
I can see the idea that you'd trade what the Twins have done recently for what the Tigers have done recently.

But if you're looking for someone to model after, wouldn't it be better to choose, say, the Cardinals as opposed to the Tigers? Unlike the Tigers, the Cards have actually won it all, and unlike the Tigers, they have been good almost every single year.
Much better model. I would argue that they win in large part because their manager is the best in the game. I am not a fan of the Cards one bit, but respect how they've been able to repeat success with a moderate payroll (110 m). They play all-round good baseball and make good moves.

I believe the Twins need to take something from how many teams have turned it around. TB and the O's have done some good things, TEX has become a force, SF is in the mix now. Mostly, and the biggest gripe I and many others have with this organization, is the philosophy about starting pitchers. The teams that win now either draft or sign strike out pitchers and let them throw 120 pitches to be the deciding factor in a game. The Twins don't. They don't draft high upside pitchers (sans Berrios). They certainly don't sign high upside pitchers. So until they do, it will difficult for this team to win. They had their best chance when Santana and Liriano were in the rotation in 2006 until Liriano got hurt. Unfortunately, its easier said than done. I don't think the Twins try NOT to get these type of players, I feel the can't due to their talent evaluators being inadequate. Perhaps that is changing, but I want to see more than just signing Berrios to believe it.

mike wants wins
10-19-2012, 10:56 AM
How did the cardinals get that one expensive outfielder they have?

one_eyed_jack
10-19-2012, 10:58 AM
Much better model. I would argue that they win in large part because their manager is the best in the game. I am not a fan of the Cards one bit, but respect how they've been able to repeat success with a moderate payroll (110 m). They play all-round good baseball and make good moves.

I believe the Twins need to take something from how many teams have turned it around. TB and the O's have done some good things, TEX has become a force, SF is in the mix now. Mostly, and the biggest gripe I and many others have with this organization, is the philosophy about starting pitchers. The teams that win now either draft or sign strike out pitchers and let them throw 120 pitches to be the deciding factor in a game. The Twins don't. They don't draft high upside pitchers (sans Berrios). They certainly don't sign high upside pitchers. So until they do, it will difficult for this team to win. They had their best chance when Santana and Liriano were in the rotation in 2006 until Liriano got hurt. Unfortunately, its easier said than done. I don't think the Twins try NOT to get these type of players, I feel the can't due to their talent evaluators being inadequate. Perhaps that is changing, but I want to see more than just signing Berrios to believe it.

---Not sure about the manager thing, they didn't miss a beat after La Russa hung it up, but pitching? Definitely. Starting pitching in baseball is like goaltending in hockey. You need it to win. If yours is really good, you can win despite flaws in other areas. If yours is really bad, forget it, you're done, it's nearly impossible to compensate for it with strengths in other areas.

Badsmerf
10-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Much better model. I would argue that they win in large part because their manager is the best in the game. I am not a fan of the Cards one bit, but respect how they've been able to repeat success with a moderate payroll (110 m). They play all-round good baseball and make good moves.

I believe the Twins need to take something from how many teams have turned it around. TB and the O's have done some good things, TEX has become a force, SF is in the mix now. Mostly, and the biggest gripe I and many others have with this organization, is the philosophy about starting pitchers. The teams that win now either draft or sign strike out pitchers and let them throw 120 pitches to be the deciding factor in a game. The Twins don't. They don't draft high upside pitchers (sans Berrios). They certainly don't sign high upside pitchers. So until they do, it will difficult for this team to win. They had their best chance when Santana and Liriano were in the rotation in 2006 until Liriano got hurt. Unfortunately, its easier said than done. I don't think the Twins try NOT to get these type of players, I feel the can't due to their talent evaluators being inadequate. Perhaps that is changing, but I want to see more than just signing Berrios to believe it.

---Not sure about the manager thing, they didn't miss a beat after La Russa hung it up, but pitching? Definitely. Starting pitching in baseball is like goaltending in hockey. You need it to win. If yours is really good, you can win despite flaws in other areas. If yours is really bad, forget it, you're done, it's nearly impossible to compensate for it with strengths in other areas.

I meant winning the last few decades, not simply at the present time. The system is built already and carrying it on will be the task of the new guy.

Boom Boom
10-19-2012, 12:27 PM
Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.

I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.

If position isn't taken into account, or defensive ability, maybe. But comparing offensive output from a player who is primarily a catcher (or has been and likely will be again) to offensive output from a 1B straight across the board is something I try not to do (and Fielder plays a poor 1B too).

For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well.

As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?

Boom Boom
10-19-2012, 01:23 PM
I don't disagree with you, and I wasn't trying to make the tired old argument about Mauer being overpaid. I just think that Prince Fielder's contract provides somewhat better value to the Tigers than Mauer's contract provides to the Twins.

If position isn't taken into account, or defensive ability, maybe. But comparing offensive output from a player who is primarily a catcher (or has been and likely will be again) to offensive output from a 1B straight across the board is something I try not to do (and Fielder plays a poor 1B too).

For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year. The two top candidates are a leadoff hitting CF and #3 hitting corner IF (in this case a 1B playing 3B...badly). If we don't dive too far into advanced metrics, we see Cabrera was #1 in BA, Trout #2. Trout #3 in OBP, Cabrera #4. Cabrera #1 in SLG%, Trout #3. Cabrera #1 in OPS, Trout #2. Trout #1 in OPS+, Cabrera #2. Pretty darn close there, no? Really close to each other in every one of those categories...Trout getting him in OBP and OPS+, Cabrera getting him in BA, SLG% and OPS. But again, one is a leadoff hitting CF and one is a corner IF. If we take into account position, isn't the CF more valuable? Then there is the base running and defense comparisons and Trout kills him in those as well.

As far as the Mauer, Fielder debate, there are other factors. How much revenue does having the hometown boy done good bring into the team in tickets sales, concession sales from people who attend games, merchandise, etc. Especially in a place like Minny whose people REALLY take pride in home state players. How much does that need to be taken into account?

As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.

Winston Smith
10-19-2012, 01:34 PM
"For me, it's similar to the MVP debate this year.........." the debate is over the Most Valuable Player award not the best all around player award. You take Cabrera out of the Tigers lineup and they are dead in the water. Take Trout out of the Angels lineup and they are still not in the playoffs.

The fact remains that over the years the winner isn't always the best player or the most valuable because there is no set of criteria for the vote. Some years it's more about which way the wind is blowing the last couple weeks of the season.

Imo, Cabrera is no doubt the most valuable, is he the best all around player probably not.

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 01:34 PM
As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.

I get that, but catchers don't play 157 games a year anyway. By the nature of the position, they just don't play that many games. This year the most games started at catcher was 136. Last year, it was 131. Every team needs another catcher, not just us. Not only that, but above I showed why he played so little at catcher this year. On top of that, you seem to be saying that the only time Mauer hasn't been in the lineup is when he's been hurt. That's not the case. As a catcher, Gardy just rested him as other managers do with their catchers.

Boom Boom
10-19-2012, 01:49 PM
As I said before, Mauer is now a 1/2 time catcher. The other part of that is the fact that the Twins are required to carry a lesser catcher on the roster to back up Mauer who doesn't play full time there.

In Fielder's career, the fewest games he's played in a full season is 157. That's 10 more than Mauer has played in his healthiest season (which just happened, and Mauer's caught only 74 of those games). The Tigers don't need a backup 1B because Fielder is always healthy.

As for the hometown boy thing, jersey sales, what have you, that's all guesswork. I'm sure Fielder sells a lot of jerseys too, and I bet there was a buzz around Tiger Stadium to go see Fielder play at least at the beginning of the year.

I get that, but catchers don't play 157 games a year anyway. By the nature of the position, they just don't play that many games. This year the most games started at catcher was 136. Last year, it was 131. Every team needs another catcher, not just us. Not only that, but above I showed why he played so little at catcher this year. On top of that, you seem to be saying that the only time Mauer hasn't been in the lineup is when he's been hurt. That's not the case. As a catcher, Gardy just rested him as other managers do with their catchers.

#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more.

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 01:59 PM
'#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. '

response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching.

response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher.

In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it.

I enjoyed the debate, thanks

Boom Boom
10-19-2012, 02:03 PM
'#1 - how many teams need three catchers?

#2 - I know it's a fact of the position that catchers get time off, but that only proves my point that Fielder has more offensive value. He's in the lineup more. '

response to #1: We only needed three catchers cause Gardy love Butera and is scared to have Doumit and Mauer playing at the same time. That's a Gardy thing. We didn't really need three catchers until Gardy decided to play Doumit in the OF or DH while Mauer was at 1B. That's a Gardy juggling lineup thing. Doumit should only be playing catcher or DH...he should be nowhere near the OF...and he should only DH when Mauer is catching.

response to #2: Were we just talking offensive value or overall value? One could argue a catcher is more valuable, even if he plays in 20-30 games less, because he's involved in every pitch. And then there's the time used for game plan with the pitcher.

In any event, I'm not sure there's any more to throw out there. You may be right, I don't know, but it's interesting enough to think about and not, IMO, cut and dry. There's a lot of factors involved in value and what affects it.

I enjoyed the debate, thanks


Natch! Good show friend.

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 02:06 PM
I don't know what Natch means, but thanks. You as well :-)

70charger
10-19-2012, 02:34 PM
For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.

Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

It's nice that he's never been hurt, but he's already a cheeseburger away from 400 pounds and with a long-term deal to boot. This will not end well for the Tigers.

Joe will age gracefully, getting on base with sweet swinging singles until he's 40 years old. Prince will catch gout.

USAFChief
10-19-2012, 09:53 PM
From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.

This post is...less than accurate. At best.

"Mauer catches almost as much as anyone...except for the seasons in which he didn't."

"Mauer could catch more...except for Gardy."

"Doctors said Morneau couldn't play offense and defense."

"Mauer could catch more, even this season, except he didn't."

Seriously...anything to back up any of that?

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 10:33 PM
what are you talking about?

Answer for Quote 1: I actually didn't say Mauer catches almost as much as anyone. I said when looking at his games played from '05-'12, Mauer's games played is in line with most players whose primary position is catcher. I didn't say he was playing catcher all those games. And that quote had to do with talking about the idea he's so injury plagued.

In any event, look at the amount of games catchers in each season from '05 to '12. Go to ESPN and look at games played for catchers. The most played this year was 135. 131 last year was the most. Do you see a pattern or do you believe all the catchers across baseball are getting hurt for that many games all the time and that's why they aren't in the lineup? They aren't? Hmm, then way aren't they playing 162? Cause catchers get rested by their managers to help protect them from the rigors of the position. Gardy is no different. Doesn't mean they actually need it or are hurt.

Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around. Have you not seen that over the last several years?

Answer for Quote 3: The Doctors came out and said that the physical exertion of playing both side could bring back symptoms. It was discussed at length. Did you not read it. Here's a taste for an article entitled, 'Morneau: Being DH is protection from concussion symptoms':

'Twins slugger Justin Morneau said he might be used more at designated hitter and less at first base to decrease the chance of a re-occurrence of the concussion problems that prematurely ended his past two seasons.

"Not to get into the medical stuff too much, but [the doctors] said before that if my body gets worn down too much, I'm more vulnerable to having the symptoms reoccur," Morneau said Monday, after he hit a double off the center field wall in a 10-4 spring training loss to the Tampa Bay Rays.

"The chance of going backwards is when I get worn down. I can have the fogginess and the headaches, and all that stuff can return, if my system gets too worn down. Then I'm in a vulnerable position."

Do you need more?

And answer for quote #4...who filled in for Morneau when the team felt he need it? Mauer quite a bit. Was is because Mauer couldn't play catcher, since he was healthy this year, or because he was the best option to go to 1B based on the roster most of the year? Who plugged Doumit in at catcher instead of Mauer while Mauer was healthy and playing 1B? Gardy.

I suppose I could have given the short answer...which is I pay attention...these things are obvious if one pays attention.

johnnydakota
10-19-2012, 11:06 PM
the reply botton is back

ThePuck
10-19-2012, 11:11 PM
the reply botton is back

excellent!

johnnydakota
10-19-2012, 11:17 PM
From '05-'10, only one player whose primary position is catcher played in more games than Mauer and none had more plate appearances. His games played per season from '05-12 are in line with most players whose primary position is catcher with the exception of two seasons. I believe his injury history is a bit over-exaggerated, especially when you consider he'd likely have a lot more games played if Gardy didn't feel the need to play his substitute players so much. Situations like Sub-Sundays, day after night games, and the last game of a 3 game series where we already won the first 2 games. This year, Mauer played quite a bit 1B, but that happened for a few reasons. 1: Doctors said if Morneau played both sides too much it could cause concussion symptoms to show up. 2. Mauer was the best option to fill in for Morneau. 3. With Doumit on the roster, it gave them a good option for replacement and then later, with Butera, he need his playing time too.

I have no doubt Mauer could have played more catcher not only this season, but other seasons as well, but this year, with having three catchers and Morneau who needed rest, made sense to play Mauer at 1B more.

This post is...less than accurate. At best.

"Mauer catches almost as much as anyone...except for the seasons in which he didn't."

"Mauer could catch more...except for Gardy."

"Doctors said Morneau couldn't play offense and defense."

"Mauer could catch more, even this season, except he didn't."

Seriously...anything to back up any of that?

so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?

USAFChief
10-20-2012, 01:11 AM
so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?

Yes.

Riverbrian
10-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.

Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.

Riverbrian
10-20-2012, 09:08 AM
On the topic of the Tigers as a blueprint.

If you mean aggressively go for it. Yeah... Good blueprint.

If you mean... Overload on Power and don't worry about defense. Bad blueprint.

This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.

Riverbrian
10-20-2012, 11:18 AM
so i gotta ask you a dude or a lady?

Yes.

That something about you Chief that I appreciate... Ask a question and you get an answer. ROTFLMAO!!!

ThePuck
10-20-2012, 12:12 PM
Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all

I'm not against using the whole team, not at all; however, it's my belief that a team is better defensively and offensively when they are allowed to gel by knowing where they'll play and where they'll hit in the lineup.

The combo of Whitaker and Trammell was about as effective in the middle IF, and as a double play combo, there ever was. Part of that was because they played so much together for so long. They knew each other's feeds at the pivot, they knew where the other would be on tough plays up the middle (like who would go for the ball, who would cover the bag if a force was possible at 2B) because they knew each other's range. Just a small sampling of the things you pick up as second nature when you play across from each other for so long.

Go on the other side, a shortstop gets used to the range of his 3B and positions himself accordingly, then he has another another 3B he has to gauge then another.

Or you have one guy who plays one position one day, then another the next and another the next. How is he gonna settle in? Cause all positions have their little intricacies. Our manager seems to think anyone can play anywhere and be expected to excel. Play a guy at 2B one day, then 3B the next, then 2B and move them all around.

If you pick they best guys at each spot and play them there as much as possible, they can gel defensively and be a more cohesive defensive unit...

Riverbrian
10-20-2012, 01:30 PM
Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all

I'm not against using the whole team, not at all; however, it's my belief that a team is better defensively and offensively when they are allowed to gel by knowing where they'll play and where they'll hit in the lineup.

The combo of Whitaker and Trammell was about as effective in the middle IF, and as a double play combo, there ever was. Part of that was because they played so much together for so long. They knew each other's feeds at the pivot, they knew where the other would be on tough plays up the middle (like who would go for the ball, who would cover the bag if a force was possible at 2B) because they knew each other's range. Just a small sampling of the things you pick up as second nature when you play across from each other for so long.

Go on the other side, a shortstop gets used to the range of his 3B and positions himself accordingly, then he has another another 3B he has to gauge then another.

Or you have one guy who plays one position one day, then another the next and another the next. How is he gonna settle in? Cause all positions have their little intricacies. Our manager seems to think anyone can play anywhere and be expected to excel. Play a guy at 2B one day, then 3B the next, then 2B and move them all around.

If you pick they best guys at each spot and play them there as much as possible, they can gel defensively and be a more cohesive defensive unit...

Everything you say makes perfect sense. I won't argue directly against any of it. A cohesive unit is something to strive for...

However... Let's point out the obvious other side. The Rangers moved bodies around... Napoli would catch and play some 1b... Young was not only the DH but 3b, 1b and 2b. The Cards move em around... The Rays do as well... Prado moved around to suit the Braves along with multiple SS's in Atlanta. The Giants put out more lineups than anyone I'm guessing. Have the Tigers settled on a 2B. The A's lineup was pretty unpredictable throughout the year. The Angels are another example. For every Trammell, Whitaker combination you can come up with. You can come up with 5 other examples of moving bodies around succussfully throughout time. Granted... Injuries are the primary reason but a manager needs to be able to mix and match. If Chemistry doesn't develop... That's on the player.

A SS needs to look around and see where the LF, CF and 3B is positioned. That's basic baseball. Nearly all double play partners like to recieve the ball in the same place for a smooth turn. If you have a guy who likes the ball at his feet when turning a double play. He's strange... Cut him.

Trammell and Whitaker made a cohesive double play combo because they were good.

As for knowing where you hit in the lineup. It only matters in the 1st inning. If you lead off the inning with your 7th hitter... Your #1 Hitter is now the cleanup guy. Each at bat is a situation in itself. Make solid contact when the situation calls for it. Go the other way when the situation calls for it. Moving someone from 3rd to 8th in the order is an ego blow and nothing more. The guys at the top of the lineup get up more often than the guys hitting 8th and 9th. Good hitters in front of Big Hitters. Then turn it over and do it again.

Brock Beauchamp
10-20-2012, 03:38 PM
For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.

Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

Within a few years, there's a damned good chance the Fielder contract is viewed as one of the worst in baseball. He may never be hurt now but do you really expect that to continue as Fielder gains more weight and ages into his 30s?

Guys with Fielder's build don't age gracefully and the Tigers signed him through his age 36 season. The guy can barely play a position at age 28. What's he going to be like at age 32? Age 35?

notoriousgod71
10-20-2012, 05:37 PM
For all the talk about Mauer's contract, I'd rather be stuck with that than Fielder's.

Really?

Mauer - 8 years, $23 million per
Fielder - 8 years, $24 million per

Other factors - Fielder hits for more power and is never hurt. And he's one of the few hitters who can approach Mauer's OBP. Mauer's a 1/2 time catcher now, and has a well-documented injury history.

I think I'd rather have Fielder's contract.

Within a few years, there's a damned good chance the Fielder contract is viewed as one of the worst in baseball. He may never be hurt now but do you really expect that to continue as Fielder gains more weight and ages into his 30s?

Guys with Fielder's build don't age gracefully and the Tigers signed him through his age 36 season. The guy can barely play a position at age 28. What's he going to be like at age 32? Age 35?

To quote Rod Beck: "I've never heard of anyone going on the DL because of strained fat."

I would much rather have Fielder's contract from start to finish than Mauer's. Fielder is a better hitter and it really doesn't concern me all that much what happens eight years down the line. Teams that want to win don't use inflated contracts as excuses why they can't add more players. Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.

Brock Beauchamp
10-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.

Mo Vaughn is listed at 6'1", 225 lbs.

Prince Fielder is listed at 5'11", 275 lbs.

Mo Vaughn ballooned in weight right around the time when he stopped being effective (2001-2002), hitting somewhere around 275 lbs.

Not to mention that Prince Fielder is 28 years old and already weighs 275 lbs. What is he going to look like as a 32 year old? Vaughn didn't start gaining weight until his 30s. This is what he looked like in 1996 (his age 28 season):

2533

I'll take Mauer's contract and cross my fingers.

JB_Iowa
10-20-2012, 06:08 PM
This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.

I disagree. I think something good can happen in the playoffs ONLY if you have good pitching. Not that good pitching guarantees playoff success (or even that you will get to the playoffs) but that you are pretty much doomed in the playoffs without it. And it isn't just good pitching ... I think Dombrowski is right that you need power pitching.

Delmon has had a good post-season but I have absolutely no doubt that the Tigers are LED by Justin Verlander and Jose Miguel (Torres) Cabrera.

mnfireman
10-20-2012, 06:33 PM
Cecil Fielder's last good season was his age 32 season, when he hit 39 HR's with the Yankees and Tigers. He was out of MLB after his age 34 season. Prince is already showing signs of not aging well - less range, power numbers down, inability to go 1B to 3B or score from 2B on a single. Detroit will not be happy with the last 2-4 seasons of this contract. And we will see how Leyland handles things when Martinez returns from injury next year. A good problem to be sure, but with Avila playing well and Cabrera and Fielder on the corners, will Martinez want to DH everyday?

notoriousgod71
10-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Even Mo Vaughn was relatively healthy and productive until his age 35 season (save for the one completely missed season) and I'd say they were very similar players and body types.

Mo Vaughn is listed at 6'1", 225 lbs.

Prince Fielder is listed at 5'11", 275 lbs.

Mo Vaughn ballooned in weight right around the time when he stopped being effective (2001-2002), hitting somewhere around 275 lbs.

Not to mention that Prince Fielder is 28 years old and already weighs 275 lbs. What is he going to look like as a 32 year old? Vaughn didn't start gaining weight until his 30s. This is what he looked like in 1996 (his age 28 season):

2533

I'll take Mauer's contract and cross my fingers.

I don't believe either of those weights. I'll take five years of dominance over .320/.400/440 or whatever Mauer is going to give us.

Brock Beauchamp
10-20-2012, 06:56 PM
You can believe or not believe those weights, it doesn't matter. A simple eye test tells you that Fielder is WAAAYYYYY heavier as a 28 year old than Vaughn was in the mid 90s (and let's not ignore Vaughn's 2 inch height advantage). Most sluggers are thick in their mid to late 20s but generally, they're not fat. That comes as they age into their 30s (just like everybody else).

Given Prince's weight at age 28, what do you think he's going to look like in five years?

2534

Mauer and Fielder are similar in WAR, despite Mauer playing half his games at first and DH, something I expect to see slightly less in 2013. Now that he has proven he's healthy again, I expect to see him behind the dish a little more often. That will only boost his WAR. To boot, guys who walk and hit for average tend to age very gracefully as long as they don't suffer career-ending injuries.

Don't get me wrong, both Mauer and Fielder are risks aging into their 30s (as is everyone, really) but given Mauer's athleticism, physique, and high contact rate, I think he'll be just fine for several more years. I can't say the same for Prince, who could easily go the route of his father overnight.

Physics Guy
10-20-2012, 07:32 PM
Well said Brock. If (when) Fielder can't play 1B he becomes a DH. I'd suggest he already should be with Cabrera at 1B. What happens when V-mart comes back. That team is stacked with players whose best positions are 1B and DH. Ok, I got on a tangent there. When Mauer can't play C for the majority of his games he can still play a more than serviceable 1B. Five years of dominance? I realize you are referring to the next five, but over the last five Mauer has a combined WAR of 23.9 and Fielder is at 17.3. We obviously disagree on this, but I put Mauer's chances of repeating over the next five as being higher than Fielder's.

notoriousgod71
10-20-2012, 08:43 PM
Well said Brock. If (when) Fielder can't play 1B he becomes a DH. I'd suggest he already should be with Cabrera at 1B. What happens when V-mart comes back. That team is stacked with players whose best positions are 1B and DH. Ok, I got on a tangent there. When Mauer can't play C for the majority of his games he can still play a more than serviceable 1B. Five years of dominance? I realize you are referring to the next five, but over the last five Mauer has a combined WAR of 23.9 and Fielder is at 17.3. We obviously disagree on this, but I put Mauer's chances of repeating over the next five as being higher than Fielder's.

Yes, we will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think we all agree that WAR is a flawed stat. In my opinion it gives too much credence to defensive position. Someone posted a WAR update at one point saying Span was a top ten player in the league. That's not close to accurate.

As for contact rate, Fielder struck out less than Mauer in more PA this season. Their career OBP are very close and Fielder's slugging is 70 points higher.

Brock Beauchamp
10-20-2012, 09:07 PM
Yes, we will obviously have to agree to disagree. I think we all agree that WAR is a flawed stat. In my opinion it gives too much credence to defensive position. Someone posted a WAR update at one point saying Span was a top ten player in the league. That's not close to accurate.

As for contact rate, Fielder struck out less than Mauer in more PA this season. Their career OBP are very close and Fielder's slugging is 70 points higher.

There is a lot more to being a contact hitter than not striking out. Over the course of his career, Mauer has a much better groundball rate and line drive rate than Fielder. That means he won't hit as many homeruns but he'll gather a lot more base hits. Fielder has a much higher flyball rate, which tend to be pulled down for outs unless they leave the park. There is a reason Mauer's career BABIP is over .040 higher than Fielder's.

Mauer's swinging strike % is ridiculously low and his contact % is higher than Fielder's. When he swings, he simply doesn't miss the ball.

ThePuck
10-20-2012, 09:30 PM
Mauer's 88Ks this year is more than he's ever had. Fielder 84Ks is the least he's ever had. Fielder's 162 game average for Ks is 121, Mauer's is 72. Mauer averages 16 more walks than strikeouts over 162 games. Fielder averages 30 less walks than strikeouts over 162 games.

Mauer's career BA is .323, Fielder's is .287. Mauer's career numbers with RISP are better than Fielder's career numbers with RISP

Fielder has never been the best at his position. Fielder has never won a gold glove. Fielder has never won an MVP. Fielder has never won a batting title.

One has primarily been a catcher for his career. One has planted his stone feet at 1B for his career. But Fielder, like most 1Bs, hits home runs.

Physics Guy
10-20-2012, 09:35 PM
Mauer has 6 years left on his contract. Fielder has 8 years left on his. I like our chances of getting better value for the duration of those contracts.

ALessKosherScott
10-22-2012, 01:46 PM
This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.


I'd call it more another example of when you have a virtually unhittable robot fronting your rotation, you tend to make your own luck come playoff time.

The problem is virtually unhittable robots aren't an easy commodity to come across.

ThePuck
10-22-2012, 02:15 PM
'This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.'

I thought winning the W Series should be the goal every year. We know we need serious pitching to handle the major offenses we face in the playoffs and we've lost our last 12 postseason games. Yes, anything can happen, but, um, that hasn't worked out well for us over the last decade...

one_eyed_jack
10-29-2012, 12:05 AM
Hmmm......all of the "let's be like the Tigers" talk has gone oddly silent.

But seriously, talk about "anything can happen in the playoffs". Who would have thunk that the Tigers could embarrass the Yankees in a 4-game sweep, then follow that up by embarrassing themselves while getting swept in the World Series?

I picked them to lose, but I thought it would go 6, and the defense would be the Tigers downfall. I did not expect their big bats to be completely silenced like that. Their hitters looked helpless and clueless up there most of the time, particularly Fielder.

Barry Zito had more RBI's than Prince Fielder in the World Series. That's pretty messed up.

Top Gun
10-29-2012, 12:29 AM
Bye bye paper Tigers!

twinsnorth49
10-29-2012, 10:49 AM
This year is another example of... make the playoffs and anything can happen... Making the playoffs should be the primary goal every year.

The talented Rangers, Angels, Dodgers and Red Sox never got in. They didn't achieve step one. Meanwhile the WS is about to be contested between an AL team with the worst record of all AL playoff participants winning a WEAK division led by Delmon "I don't care about baseball" Young and a Wildcard team that found a way to get the last spot in the door and is being led by the .220 hitting Descalso.

Quick clarification. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments of the Tigers winning the weaker AL Central. I'm saying... Get into the playoffs. That's your goal. Once there... Anything can happen. Nothing happens if you don't get there.

I disagree. I think something good can happen in the playoffs ONLY if you have good pitching. Not that good pitching guarantees playoff success (or even that you will get to the playoffs) but that you are pretty much doomed in the playoffs without it. And it isn't just good pitching ... I think Dombrowski is right that you need power pitching.

Delmon has had a good post-season but I have absolutely no doubt that the Tigers are LED by Justin Verlander and Jose Miguel (Torres) Cabrera.

I think he was wrong.

Riverbrian
10-29-2012, 11:17 AM
I was wrong on the Cards. They looked like they had it. You just never know in this game. It makes the game beautiful. Cabrera and Fielder didn't do much to help the Tigers but they sure helped get them there but even Cabrera can't win this game by himself.

Balance... Everything in life is Balance. From baseball to what you eat. The Twins are unbalanced because of Pitching. They don't have to have the best staff in baseball. They just need a staff that can compete with options to replace the ones who are not competing or can't compete.

Let's face it... The Twins can upgrade at every single position. The only player that is potentially best in class is Ben Revere with his speed. Everyone else has someone better across MLB at something that they do well. We don't need an overhaul... We need pitching to restore some balance to this club.

johnnydakota
10-29-2012, 12:33 PM
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.

Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.
there you admiting you have a problem is your 1st step to recovery ,( now as you hum the 3 blind mice song) always remember and never forget , the 3 stooges are not good at what they do , larry gardenhire was a good coach for tom kelly , twins win dispite larry being the manager
curly , ryan was a good cross checking scout , he made 1 lucky trade in aj and has done nothing sence
moe st pete , a media major (not even a real bean counter) did well selling broken kirby pucket bats , while running the souviner shop
untill you realise where we could be with quality people steering the ship you will stay in denile ...

good luck with your recovery

Willihammer
10-29-2012, 01:00 PM
What about Shemp?

Riverbrian
10-29-2012, 03:06 PM
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.

Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.
there you admiting you have a problem is your 1st step to recovery ,( now as you hum the 3 blind mice song) always remember and never forget , the 3 stooges are not good at what they do , larry gardenhire was a good coach for tom kelly , twins win dispite larry being the manager
curly , ryan was a good cross checking scout , he made 1 lucky trade in aj and has done nothing sence
moe st pete , a media major (not even a real bean counter) did well selling broken kirby pucket bats , while running the souviner shop
untill you realise where we could be with quality people steering the ship you will stay in denile ...

good luck with your recovery

I'm Ok with the Kool-Aid. It took me awhile but I realized over time that other people have their own opinions. When it comes to the Twins... I'm wrong frequently but I like trying to play along like others. Some people are simply more informed than others. Some take solid information and use it well and some take solid information and use it badly. How does the Twins Brass use solid information... I don't know!!!

The majority of us... Not blessed with a ton of inside information... Some of us take second hand information and incomplete information or no information and strongly toss half baked accusations as if they were an actual part of the machinery (which they are not). They find a few uninformed like minds and find a few others who take a different route and find similiar conclusions who use a different kind of uninformed math to arrive at the same or similiar conclusion.

Others... use second hand information and incomplete information or no information and come back with a very uninformed supportive viewpoint and can be quite forceful with those conclusions as well. This is my side of the coin and I'm happy to drink the Kool Aid.

There are some like me... Who feel a lot better about things assuming that someone has a job to do and is attempting to do it regardless of weather it fits my opinion and my opinion is different than other opinions. I can be forceful in my opinions but they are as half baked as anyone else.

I do try to assume that the people in charge are not sitting around playing "Angry Birds" on their IPAD all day.

I try to assume that they have scouts and they get reports and they read and filter them. I try to assume that a network of coaches are working to improve the club from the ground up every day and each of the coaches are more qualified than 99.9% of us. I try to assume that they are working with actual information and a gameplan.

I also assume that you are nowhere close to this level on the informational food chain but yet you seem to be more cocksure than most on this site and even more cocksure than the ones with the actual information.

Everyone is different. You can't please everyone. I realize that in this life... Some are better than others and some are worse and that will be true with the Twins brass as well... I don't have enough inside information to conclude where exactly Ryan, Gardenhire, St. Peter, Smith, Anderson, Pohlad, Brunansky, Mauer and the medical staff rank on the better or worse scale but I assume that they are spending more time on it than any of us... Including you... .

I am assuming that your LARRY,MOE AND CURLY attacks are based in nothing of substance. I am also assuming that nothing I have typed here will make a bit of difference in your mind since you are already completely cooked.

29 teams do not win the World Series Every Single Year. I'm not sure what I need to recover from? The team has some work to do let's see what happens!

twinsnorth49
10-29-2012, 03:10 PM
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.

Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.
there you admiting you have a problem is your 1st step to recovery ,( now as you hum the 3 blind mice song) always remember and never forget , the 3 stooges are not good at what they do , larry gardenhire was a good coach for tom kelly , twins win dispite larry being the manager
curly , ryan was a good cross checking scout , he made 1 lucky trade in aj and has done nothing sence
moe st pete , a media major (not even a real bean counter) did well selling broken kirby pucket bats , while running the souviner shop
untill you realise where we could be with quality people steering the ship you will stay in denile ...

good luck with your recovery

Spell check is a great application, if someone could only come up with a "make sense" program, we'd all be able to understand Johnny.

70charger
10-30-2012, 07:22 PM
Spell check is a great application, if someone could only come up with a "make sense" program, we'd all be able to understand Johnny.

I tried that, but it kept deleting everything johnnydakota said.

johnnydakota
10-30-2012, 07:47 PM
Answer for Quote 2: Do you not see that Gardy plays subs and changes lineups and positions constantly? How many different lineups in the first 20 games this season, 17, 18? Was that out of necessity? Gardy has always played backups way too much and moved lineups and positions all around.

Honestly, I've always felt that Gardy doesn't play backups enough. It was painful to watch Parmelee rot on the bench. Casilla could have played more in my opinion(It's ok Chief... Just a little more).

I thnk Hughes and Burroughs were thrown away(maybe they should have been) with no playing time to prove themselves while Danny V. Meekly played 3B every day.

I don't want the same lineup everyday. Even star players slump. Even .220 hitters get hot. You miss out on Descalso while you wait for Granderson to turn it around.

Over the course of 162 games... You have a roster of 25. Use them all.

if Revere is going through a tough stretch. It's Ok to play Mastro for a while. Competition is created in such ways.

Its an eye of the beholder thing. I honestly feel that Gardy needs to use his bench more and in different ways but still think he's a good manager overall.
there you admiting you have a problem is your 1st step to recovery ,( now as you hum the 3 blind mice song) always remember and never forget , the 3 stooges are not good at what they do , larry gardenhire was a good coach for tom kelly , twins win dispite larry being the manager
curly , ryan was a good cross checking scout , he made 1 lucky trade in aj and has done nothing sence
moe st pete , a media major (not even a real bean counter) did well selling broken kirby pucket bats , while running the souviner shop
untill you realise where we could be with quality people steering the ship you will stay in denile ...

good luck with your recovery

I'm Ok with the Kool-Aid. It took me awhile but I realized over time that other people have their own opinions. When it comes to the Twins... I'm wrong frequently but I like trying to play along like others. Some people are simply more informed than others. Some take solid information and use it well and some take solid information and use it badly. How does the Twins Brass use solid information... I don't know!!!

The majority of us... Not blessed with a ton of inside information... Some of us take second hand information and incomplete information or no information and strongly toss half baked accusations as if they were an actual part of the machinery (which they are not). They find a few uninformed like minds and find a few others who take a different route and find similiar conclusions who use a different kind of uninformed math to arrive at the same or similiar conclusion.

Others... use second hand information and incomplete information or no information and come back with a very uninformed supportive viewpoint and can be quite forceful with those conclusions as well. This is my side of the coin and I'm happy to drink the Kool Aid.

There are some like me... Who feel a lot better about things assuming that someone has a job to do and is attempting to do it regardless of weather it fits my opinion and my opinion is different than other opinions. I can be forceful in my opinions but they are as half baked as anyone else.

I do try to assume that the people in charge are not sitting around playing "Angry Birds" on their IPAD all day.

I try to assume that they have scouts and they get reports and they read and filter them. I try to assume that a network of coaches are working to improve the club from the ground up every day and each of the coaches are more qualified than 99.9% of us. I try to assume that they are working with actual information and a gameplan.

I also assume that you are nowhere close to this level on the informational food chain but yet you seem to be more cocksure than most on this site and even more cocksure than the ones with the actual information.

Everyone is different. You can't please everyone. I realize that in this life... Some are better than others and some are worse and that will be true with the Twins brass as well... I don't have enough inside information to conclude where exactly Ryan, Gardenhire, St. Peter, Smith, Anderson, Pohlad, Brunansky, Mauer and the medical staff rank on the better or worse scale but I assume that they are spending more time on it than any of us... Including you... .

I am assuming that your LARRY,MOE AND CURLY attacks are based in nothing of substance. I am also assuming that nothing I have typed here will make a bit of difference in your mind since you are already completely cooked.

29 teams do not win the World Series Every Single Year. I'm not sure what I need to recover from? The team has some work to do let's see what happens!

well you said you happily drink the kool-aide, ok many articles have stated ryan is old school ,he has said while speaking to sabr he doesnt understand all the stats and that at times has problems turning on his computer....he made 1 lucky trade and has lived on that for years....
its just time for new blood in this organisation ... i believe everyone is entitled to there opinion .as for my bad spellin and grammar , either delete my posts,dont read them or get over it
go twins

TheLeviathan
10-30-2012, 09:59 PM
i believe everyone is entitled to there opinion .as for my bad spellin and grammar , either delete my posts,dont read them or get over it go twins

The problem isn't your opinions. The problem is your style of sharing them causes nasal hemorrhaging. Clean up your posts, articulate yourself, and you may find your opinion very much appreciated. But it won't be in this ridiculous manner you've been posting. Nothing but constructive criticism because it doesn't pay to be posting in a message board if you can't actually communicate your message.

Riverbrian
10-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Old School... What does that mean?
Is it possible that someone else in the organization he trusts understands SABR metrics.
Problems turning on a computer... Could that be a joke? Does it mean the entire organizations is carving notes on to boulders stored in a real heavy duty filing cabinet?
1 lucky trade... How do you know it was luck? When you say that he lived on that for years... Are you saying that one lucky trade produced multiple AL central pennants.

Never mind... For you... The above questions are rhetorical.

Time for new blood in the organization? Maybe... I don't know... I'll give you that... That point isn't unreasonable... It's how you come to that conclusion that is unreasonable and your Larry, Curly and Moe routine makes you seem like someone not deep enough to understand the dialogue and plot lines of the actual three stooges.

The Twins organization is staffed by a lot of people in various roles. I'm pretty sure that inside the walls... away from public view. You have differences of opinion on players and the price of hot dogs. Just like any other business across the world. Just like the difference of opinion on Twins Daily... A GM doesn't do it alone. He relies on his staff and he filters. You don't know where it comes from. Do you know the scouts by name? Have you sat down and discussed the talent of Dallas MacPherson with any of them? Is there a Johnny Dakota nameplate positioned at the table in the meeting room? Terry Ryan doesn't live inside a steel vault cut off from knowledgeable people who have been involved in professional baseball for years. There is no point in employing as many as they do without them having skills and input.

If you can't accept anything I'm saying... At least accept this... If you want to blame someone and clearly you do because it comes bursting out of you like water rushing toward Johnstown. Blame the Owner. The owner hires the people who hire the people. At least get that straight!!!

If the owner hired you for GM... It would be pointless to throw garbage on you. It was the owner who hired you for a job you couldn't do.

It's great you have an opinion... I have one as well?

notoriousgod71
11-14-2012, 12:46 PM
The Tigers continue to add pieces to help their team each offseason and each trade deadline.

Cabrera, Scherzer, Fielder, Sanchez, Fister, Martinez, Hunter, Jackson, Benoit, Dotel.

Who says you have to develop players to build a winner? To think all they had to give up for these guys was cash, Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Casper Wells, and Granderson.

When the Tigers were near record setting ****ty they went out and signed guys like Ordonez and Pudge to send a message that they weren't satisfied with being terrible. Those two ended up being key pieces when the Tigers turned it around and they've just added to it.

ThePuck
11-14-2012, 12:59 PM
tigers have won 20 playoff games with 2 trips to the world series since the last twins playoff game win.

wow!