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Nick Nelson
10-16-2012, 10:26 PM
You can view the page at http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.php?1103-Gibson-Causing-Giddiness

Thrylos
10-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Perhaps even more encouraging than the numbers are the reports on Gibson's fastball velocity, which was purportedly registering up to 93 MPH (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/174473741.html) in his latest start.

Indeed that is what matters: throwing hard with no pain.
And Joe C's numbers are pretty conservative. Mackey indicates (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Top_prospect_Kyle_Gibson_continues_to_dominate_the _Arizona_Fall_League101612) that PitchF/X had him at 93-95. He will get a chance this ST; up to him to grab it by the horns...

greengoblinrulz
10-16-2012, 11:04 PM
Stunned by TR's statement of Gibson getting only 130 innings next yr after getting 70ish innings already THIS season. Where does that come from.
Handling of Hicks/Arcia/Gibson just shows me that the club isnt interested in truly competing next yr....just field a team & hope for the best.

clutterheart
10-16-2012, 11:57 PM
Stunned by TR's statement of Gibson getting only 130 innings next yr after getting 70ish innings already THIS season. Where does that come from.
Handling of Hicks/Arcia/Gibson just shows me that the club isnt interested in truly competing next yr....just field a team & hope for the best.

While I agree that the Ryan's plan is to wait out this bad patch, I am not sure how they are mishandleing Hicks & Arcia. I think both are going to go to Spring training and if they play well, it would be shocking f they both don't see time on the 25 man roster next year.
Further I am not unhappy at all to hear that Gibson would get reduced innings. His long term health is more important. But in the unlikely event they team plays well out of the gate next year and is contention, hopefully they take steps to have him avaiable for the playoffs. (By limiting his innings in Late July & August)

Seth Stohs
10-16-2012, 11:58 PM
Proceeding cautiously with Hicks (22 year old coming off his first quality all-around season, in AA), Arcia (half-season of AA time) and Gibson (after missing all of 2012 with TOMMY JOHN surgery... yeah, that's crazy!

Shane Wahl
10-17-2012, 12:34 AM
Maybe he can start the season in the bullpen in Rochester? Or as a starter going 2-3 innings (and have an Andrew Albers or someone take over in long relief for each start?). That way he stays as 30 or so innings through May (imagine what Washington could have done in the playoffs if they had managed Strassburg appropriately). A strict 5 inning limit through August would push it to 100 at the most. Then turn him loose in September. Now, of course, we all know that the Twins will be playing deep into October so . . . . there's not that.

beckmt
10-17-2012, 01:03 AM
I'm sure unless Gibson is lights out in spring training, he will start in Rochester. It could be that the options take themselves out of contention and he has to start in Minnesota. I hope he is here as it seems like the Twins need him. I did some checking at mlbtradermors and there are a lot of clubs looking for starting pitching.. That would seem to mean that unless TR is willing to overpay, we will have about the same staff as the end of last year. That will not work.

NoCryingInBaseball
10-17-2012, 06:40 AM
Limiting innings the following year after TJ seems appropriate and in the long-term best interest of Gibson (and the team if his stuff is as good as the reports). Rather than sit him down in September, like Washington did to Strassburg, why not have him sit out a month in the spring. After all, he is pitching Fall League.

Brock Beauchamp
10-17-2012, 07:48 AM
Limiting innings the following year after TJ seems appropriate and in the long-term best interest of Gibson (and the team if his stuff is as good as the reports). Rather than sit him down in September, like Washington did to Strassburg, why not have him sit out a month in the spring. After all, he is pitching Fall League.

I don't see the need to have him sit out but a short stretch in the bullpen might be in order to keep him pitching through September.

mike wants wins
10-17-2012, 08:32 AM
There is no evidence that limiting innings matters. The data is on the interwebs. No reason that he should pitch in Rochester, but not Minnesota, if he is one of the five beat starters. He is 25, there are only so many years in an arm. But we all know he will start in Rochester.

Twins Twerp
10-17-2012, 08:33 AM
Stunned by TR's statement of Gibson getting only 130 innings next yr after getting 70ish innings already THIS season. Where does that come from.
Handling of Hicks/Arcia/Gibson just shows me that the club isnt interested in truly competing next yr....just field a team & hope for the best.

Some people will look at anything half full. Are still complaining about 2 AA hitters not getting called up to get 5 AB's in September? I mean how bad is your life that you have to come on this website, day after day, and post your negative viewpoint. "Pitch to contact is the worst, Tom Kelly's is a good high school coach, we take to long to call up our prospects, nag nag nag." This organization has hit a rough patch but it did spend the last decade being one of the top teams in the AL. So I think we should all just calm down and let TR do his thing and get us back to respectability. This team is not that far off.

Badsmerf
10-17-2012, 09:56 AM
That pitch limit is a little low. It is actually about 100% from what he pitched this year, so the Twins must have seen something that has lead them to believe that is a good number. When you think about it, that is quite a workload on an arm. I think I'd push it to about 150 or so, but I believe more pitches creates stronger arms. I don't think the Twins will have the same problem the Nationals did with the playoffs....

nicksaviking
10-17-2012, 10:33 AM
You'd like to limit his innings at Rochester so he is able to pitch deeper into the season at the MLB level, but if his innings are limited at AAA, how is anyone going to be able to determine if a promotion is warrented?

Of course if he's killing it at AAA, the fans are going to demand a callup while the front office is trying to figure out how best to play the Super 2 game with him.

mike wants wins
10-17-2012, 10:44 AM
He is 25, and in his prime. Worrying about his pay 5 years into his MLB career seems to misunderstand some pretty fundamental odds of his career turning out in certain ways. This has been a weakness of teams for a few years now. Had Trout been in the majora all year, Anaheim might be in the playoffs....not that I think Gibson is Trout or the Twins are the Angels.

Jim Crikket
10-17-2012, 10:54 AM
If Gibson really is lights-out in Spring Training, it's going to be really interesting to see what Terry Ryan does with him. He's essentially (and rightfully) told his manager that his job is on the line in 2013 and a bad start could even see a change made in mid-season. Given that, would he really also tell him that he can't use one of his best starting pitchers (potentially even THE best) until May or even June? That would be an interesting conversation to listen in on.

Winston Smith
10-17-2012, 10:55 AM
If he is one of the best 5 starters and it's hard to believe he wouldn't be he should start with the Twins. They could limit his innings by skipping his start once a month, that's easy to do with days off. That would limit his innings to what they want. I think the norm is about 150-160 innings.

Ex-Iowegian
10-17-2012, 10:58 AM
This is quite simply, very good news.

joeboo_22
10-17-2012, 11:15 AM
130 is way to few. I don't agree with a 170-180 limit but I can live with it. 130 though is at the point where I'd consider putting him in the bullpen. Which is not where he is needed. Unless he isn't 100%, he should pitch 180 innings as a starter.

If he is 1 of the 5 best starters in ST, he should start with the Twins, I don't care, whether that means he has to be shut down in August. If he is on a 130 IP count, the last thing we need is for him to use 30 of them in Rochester, when we have starters getting lit up in Minnesota

Steve Penz
10-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Stunned by TR's statement of Gibson getting only 130 innings next yr after getting 70ish innings already THIS season. Where does that come from.
Handling of Hicks/Arcia/Gibson just shows me that the club isnt interested in truly competing next yr....just field a team & hope for the best.

Some people will look at anything half full. Are still complaining about 2 AA hitters not getting called up to get 5 AB's in September? I mean how bad is your life that you have to come on this website, day after day, and post your negative viewpoint. "Pitch to contact is the worst, Tom Kelly's is a good high school coach, we take to long to call up our prospects, nag nag nag." This organization has hit a rough patch but it did spend the last decade being one of the top teams in the AL. So I think we should all just calm down and let TR do his thing and get us back to respectability. This team is not that far off.

Amen and thank you. To go nuts and start rushing players will destroy them. Why not hold off get them more ready. 1.5 weeks ago i heard Rosen insinuate that we should rush Sano up to the mlb level. Good lord why?

When the young players are ready they will get to target field.

Relax please.

PopRiveter
10-17-2012, 11:26 AM
If he pitches well in ST and they want to limit innings and ease him in slowly, I'd prefer to see him used sparingly in relief with the Twins rather than starting in Rochester. That way, he starts to experience MLB competition before joining the rotation and fires fewer of his bullets against AAA players. I know it affects contract status eventually, but they need to play every angle they can to establish a real, major-league rotation now.

TRex
10-17-2012, 12:00 PM
Do you really want to put someone in the bullpen who is coming back from major surgery AND has never pitched from the bullpen before... AND at a level of competition he has never seen before? That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. In addition, some pitchers (i.e. Slowey) just don't feel right out of the pen, so how in the world is he supposed to know what arm pain is normal bullpen usage versus breakup of scar tissue or something worse?

ThePuck
10-17-2012, 12:01 PM
Stunned by TR's statement of Gibson getting only 130 innings next yr after getting 70ish innings already THIS season. Where does that come from.
Handling of Hicks/Arcia/Gibson just shows me that the club isnt interested in truly competing next yr....just field a team & hope for the best.

Some people will look at anything half full. Are still complaining about 2 AA hitters not getting called up to get 5 AB's in September? I mean how bad is your life that you have to come on this website, day after day, and post your negative viewpoint. "Pitch to contact is the worst, Tom Kelly's is a good high school coach, we take to long to call up our prospects, nag nag nag." This organization has hit a rough patch but it did spend the last decade being one of the top teams in the AL. So I think we should all just calm down and let TR do his thing and get us back to respectability. This team is not that far off.

Amen and thank you. To go nuts and start rushing players will destroy them. Why not hold off get them more ready. 1.5 weeks ago i heard Rosen insinuate that we should rush Sano up to the mlb level. Good lord why?

When the young players are ready they will get to target field.

Relax please.

How long does a 1st rounder and 2nd rounder need to be in the minors before one can say that was a wasted 1st round or 2nd round pick?

Linus
10-17-2012, 12:31 PM
Its all about service time. There is no way the Twins should burn a year of control when he is coming off TJ surgery and the club is likely not to contend. Since we will never sign an ace through free agency, its critical to add the extra year of control - it may be the only we he is here the final year before free agency.

mbents
10-17-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't see the need to have him sit out but a short stretch in the bullpen might be in order to keep him pitching through September.

I don't understand the benefit of having Gibson pitching through September. It's unlikely that the Twins will be competitive in 2013, so if they want to cap Gibson's innings at 130 then it doesn't really matter when he reaches that limit. If the Twins somehow find themselves in a situation similar to what the Nationals went through with Strasburg this summer, then maybe they have Gibson skip a start here and there so he can pitch through September. If that's the case, it's a good problem to have (and hopefully one that they would handle better than the Nats with Strasburg).

PopRiveter
10-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Do you really want to put someone in the bullpen who is coming back from major surgery AND has never pitched from the bullpen before... AND at a level of competition he has never seen before?

Absolutely. There are roles within a bullpen that can be managed very closely. You have control. He certainly wouldn't fit as a go-to BP guy (like a Perkins, Burton workhorse.) But, he can be valuable and remain protected if used for 2 innings here and there on a regular basis.
You can plan to have him as 2nd in line on days a shorter-inning starter throws. For example, If Deduno makes the squad. Kyle loosens up after inning 4 (or 5 if you prefer) regardless of the game scenario. If Deduno (or other chosen guy) flames out early, long relief guy enters the game to bridge to Kyle. If Deduno pitches a gem, Kyle throws a BP session that is tailored to his recovery/strengthening program.
You can afford to carry one reliever in a very protected role like that if there is reason to. In my opinion, that experience would be very valuable and help position him to contribute in the rotation later with some momentum already established. All the while, his innings will have been limited early in the season rather than late in the season.

joeboo_22
10-17-2012, 01:42 PM
Do you really want to put someone in the bullpen who is coming back from major surgery AND has never pitched from the bullpen before... AND at a level of competition he has never seen before? That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. In addition, some pitchers (i.e. Slowey) just don't feel right out of the pen, so how in the world is he supposed to know what arm pain is normal bullpen usage versus breakup of scar tissue or something worse?

No, the best thing would be to put a 180 IP limit and have him as a starter all year, whether that is in AAA or the majors. The problem is by putting a 130 IP limit, he could be done by the early August, and if he is good enough to be with the Twins all year he should be with the Twins all year.

h2oface
10-17-2012, 03:56 PM
gibson will have to rack up quite a career for me to ever forget that the braintrust of the minnesota twins could have had mike trout instead, even as low as they picked when they chose gibson. but then one wonders....... if the twins would have still had trout playing high a or double a last year, and been trying to make him hit the ball different than his unorthodox style..............

Brock Beauchamp
10-17-2012, 04:12 PM
I don't see the need to have him sit out but a short stretch in the bullpen might be in order to keep him pitching through September.

I don't understand the benefit of having Gibson pitching through September. It's unlikely that the Twins will be competitive in 2013, so if they want to cap Gibson's innings at 130 then it doesn't really matter when he reaches that limit. If the Twins somehow find themselves in a situation similar to what the Nationals went through with Strasburg this summer, then maybe they have Gibson skip a start here and there so he can pitch through September. If that's the case, it's a good problem to have (and hopefully one that they would handle better than the Nats with Strasburg).

I'm of the opinion that you never enter a season without the expectation of being competitive unless you've just finished wiping the roster through a fire sale.

PseudoSABR
10-17-2012, 04:17 PM
gibson will have to rack up quite a career for me to ever forget that the braintrust of the minnesota twins could have had mike trout instead, even as low as they picked when they chose gibson. but then one wonders....... if the twins would have still had trout playing high a or double a last year, and been trying to make him hit the ball different than his unorthodox style..............Lot's of teams passed on Trout...

Thrylos
10-17-2012, 07:03 PM
If he is one of the best 5 starters and it's hard to believe he wouldn't be he should start with the Twins. .

Plenty of examples that the Twins did not start the best 5 out of Spring Training in recent seasons... 2006: Liriano had to start the season in the pen. 2007: (the year of Sir Sidney and Ramon Ortiz) Garza had to start the season in Rochester to pay his dues; 2008 (the year of Livan). Liriano has to stay in AAA forever so the super 2 clock will not click; 2011: Slowey was much better than Blackburn in ST, Blackburn gets to be in the rotation (because of the scholarship) . 2012: Marquis has an atrocious ST, he is not ready and he still wins a spot. So it is the norm vs the exception in Twinsland....

h2oface
10-18-2012, 01:21 PM
gibson will have to rack up quite a career for me to ever forget that the braintrust of the minnesota twins could have had mike trout instead, even as low as they picked when they chose gibson. but then one wonders....... if the twins would have still had trout playing high a or double a last year, and been trying to make him hit the ball different than his unorthodox style..............Lot's of teams passed on Trout...

ahhhh............ the classic type of response to support mistakes............ every kid says it....... "everyone else has one" ........people say it about steroids........ "everyone was doing it".... you are obviously correct, and obvious. 21 teams passsed trout, and the twins did too. that makes the ineptitude all OK, eh? i will get over it when and if gibson becomes a star pitcher, because he will have to be a star for that to happen, not just a number 4 or 5.

Brock Beauchamp
10-18-2012, 02:29 PM
ahhhh............ the classic type of response to support mistakes............ every kid says it....... "everyone else has one" ........people say it about steroids........ "everyone was doing it".... you are obviously correct, and obvious. 21 teams passsed trout, and the twins did too. that makes the ineptitude all OK, eh? i will get over it when and if gibson becomes a star pitcher, because he will have to be a star for that to happen, not just a number 4 or 5.

You must really hate sports because if that's how you feel, your outrage must consume every moment of your existence. Albert Pujols was taken in the 13th round. 19 teams passed on CC Sabathia before he was drafted. 10 teams passed on McCutchen. Joey Votto wasn't taken until the second round so nearly every team passed on him at least once.

PseudoSABR
10-18-2012, 02:55 PM
gibson will have to rack up quite a career for me to ever forget that the braintrust of the minnesota twins could have had mike trout instead, even as low as they picked when they chose gibson. but then one wonders....... if the twins would have still had trout playing high a or double a last year, and been trying to make him hit the ball different than his unorthodox style..............Lot's of teams passed on Trout...

ahhhh............ the classic type of response to support mistakes............ every kid says it....... "everyone else has one" ........people say it about steroids........ "everyone was doing it".... you are obviously correct, and obvious. 21 teams passsed trout, and the twins did too. that makes the ineptitude all OK, eh? i will get over it when and if gibson becomes a star pitcher, because he will have to be a star for that to happen, not just a number 4 or 5.Look, the point is that twenty one teams didn't believe that Trout was worth picking in the first round. I'm not suggesting it's a mistake that everyone made; rather that there was a shared belief based on available data and scouting that Trout was not worth taking about the 21st pick.

I'm sure we're equally as guilty for not taking any number of players (as Rocket Pig mentions). Your hindsight--they should have known reasoning isn't convincing. If you have scouting reports or special insight that Trout would turn into Mickey Mantle please share it. Otherwise, your argument is coulda/woulda/shoulda which is juvenile and lazy.

Seriously, no one will respect you here if you talk to people like they are stupid. Grant people here more respect; the idiots are few.

diehardtwinsfan
10-18-2012, 04:22 PM
I said before that I dont' think the Twins should be counting on Gibson, and that is still the case even with his exceptional fall. If by chance he earns a spot, I see one of a few options:1) they've done nothing and don't plan on contending so he starts in April and is shut down in August.2) they've signed a few FAs. Gibson goes to EST where he doesn't rack up innings at first and gets the call come Mid-May/early June3) he starts in the pen to limit innings.4) he spends most of next year in Rochester.I'm not sure I'm a fan of the pen personnally, as I personally think that this is tougher on arms (especially given how Gardy manages it). I'd vote for 1, 2, or 4. I'm hoping the Twins go out and trade Span for a pitcher, pick up one long term deal in FA, and sign a 3rd pitcher to a 1 year deal personally, which means Gibson can be eased back and shutdown in Rochester.

mike wants wins
10-18-2012, 04:50 PM
Is there any evidence that easing a pitcher in is better than having him pitch?

ThePuck
10-18-2012, 05:16 PM
Is there any evidence that easing a pitcher in is better than having him pitch?

Nope, but it's group think now..and if you follow group think and it doesn't work out, you aren't blamed...casue it's what everyone else would have done. If you go against popular practice and it doesn't work out, OH BOY! :-)

h2oface
10-18-2012, 05:17 PM
cheers. point(s) taken. pseudosabr, i felt the same about your brief response, and i apologize for any tone that i engaged in that was perceived/conveyed as being disrespectful. maybe the angels' northeast scout, greg morhardt, was the only one that really, really got it. the sports illustrated article (august 27) by tom verducci, with "the supernatural" on the cover, was an intriguing read. 21 teams passed on trout, and even the angels took him with their second (25th) pick instead of their first (24th) pick of the 2009 "strasburg" draft, as even the angels braintrust other than morhardt wanted to sign him for the lower slot money. washington could have even had trout at #10 instead of the now famous game 5 NLDS closer, drew storen...... add that to bryce harper in 2010 at #1, and the scenario is mind bogglingly scary!

it is most interesting, from a twins' angle, that mike trout's father, jeff trout (drafted in round 5 in 1983 as a second baseman), played in the twins system.......... and greg morhardt, the now angel scout, did too! morhardt was drafted in 1984 with the twins' second pick, as a first baseman. they played 3 seasons together for the then AA orlando twins. morhardt was promoted to AAA toledo during the 1986 season and never rose higher and was done in 1989 having fallen back to A ball for detroit. at the beginning of the 1987 (world series) season, and even though jeff trout was rising and had hit .321 with a .406 OBP the year before for orlando playing mostly third base, and lifting his minor league career average to .303, he was passed over for none other than ron gardenhire (then 29, kinda holding his own with about a .270 season and minor league career average, now abandoned by the mets' system, and destined to play his only year in the twins' system in what would also be his last in the minors as well), who got the AAA spot instead! jeff trout was 26, and with gary gaetti dug in at third for the twins, and with the prospect of being in AA for a 4th season (some things don't change, eh? ;-]), jeff trout hung it up, got a teaching job, and started a family............... catcher, gregory justin morhardt (goes by justin), greg's son, was drafted this year in the 39th round by the angels.

PseudoSABR
10-18-2012, 07:27 PM
cheers. point(s) taken. pseudosabr, i felt the same about your brief response, and i apologize for any tone that i engaged in that was perceived/conveyed as being disrespectful. maybe the angels' northeast scout, greg morhardt, was the only one that really, really got it. the sports illustrated article (august 27) by tom verducci, with "the supernatural" on the cover, was an intriguing read. 21 teams passed on trout, and even the angels took him with their second (25th) pick instead of their first (24th) pick of the 2009 "strasburg" draft, as even the angels braintrust other than morhardt wanted to sign him for the lower slot money. washington could have even had trout at #10 instead of the now famous game 5 NLDS closer, drew storen...... add that to bryce harper in 2010 at #1, and the scenario is mind bogglingly scary!

it is most interesting, from a twins' angle, that mike trout's father, jeff trout (drafted in round 5 in 1983 as a second baseman), played in the twins system.......... and greg morhardt, the now angel scout, did too! morhardt was drafted in 1984 with the twins' second pick, as a first baseman. they played 3 seasons together for the then double a orlando twins. morhardt was promoted to triple a toledo during the 1986 season and never rose higher and was done in 1989 having fallen back to a ball for detroit. at the beginning of the 1987 (world series) season, and even though jeff trout was rising and had hit .321 with a .406 OBP the year before for orlando playing mostly third base, and lifting his minor league career average to .303, he was passed over for none other than ron gardenhire (then 29, kinda holding his own with about a .270 season and minor league career average, now abandoned by the mets' system, and destined to play his only year in the twins' system in what would also be his last in the minors as well), who got the triple a spot instead! jeff trout was 26, and with gary gaetti dug in at third for the twins, and with the prospect of being in double a for a 4th season (some things don't change, eh? ;-]), jeff trout hung it up, got a teaching job, and started a family............... catcher, gregory justin morhardt (goes by justin), greg's son, was drafted this year in the 39th round by the angels.Good stuff. Now that's a post we can chew over. /cheers

righty8383
10-18-2012, 11:00 PM
Keith Law mentions Gibson in his latest blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8519701/scouting-billy-hamilton-george-springer-other-top-prospects-arizona-fall-league-mlb). Good stuff, insiders only of course:(

kab21
10-19-2012, 12:39 AM
gibson will have to rack up quite a career for me to ever forget that the braintrust of the minnesota twins could have had mike trout instead, even as low as they picked when they chose gibson. but then one wonders....... if the twins would have still had trout playing high a or double a last year, and been trying to make him hit the ball different than his unorthodox style..............Lot's of teams passed on Trout...

ahhhh............ the classic type of response to support mistakes............ every kid says it....... "everyone else has one" ........people say it about steroids........ "everyone was doing it".... you are obviously correct, and obvious. 21 teams passsed trout, and the twins did too. that makes the ineptitude all OK, eh? i will get over it when and if gibson becomes a star pitcher, because he will have to be a star for that to happen, not just a number 4 or 5.

Wait a second aren't there a lot of Twins fans suggesting that the Twins made a mistake taking a toolsy OF'er last year and how it would be a mistake to take a toolsy OF'er this year? This is pretty much exactly the same scenario. Every year players outperform their draft status. Perhaps Berrios will be that player from last year's draft that people say the same things about.

I do think that Trout was pretty high on their list but they felt they couldn't pass on gibson when he fell that far. Gibson was and still is an outstanding pick regardless of what Trout has done. In fact if you go back and look at that draft there's a lot worse crap (most of it) that the Twins could have drafted.


Nope, but it's group think now..and if you follow group think and it doesn't work out, you aren't blamed...casue it's what everyone else would have done. If you go against popular practice and it doesn't work out, OH BOY! :-)

This 130 inning restriction sounds ridiculous. I'm not against being cautious in what is probably going to be a crappy year but shutting him down in July is excessive.

Kwak
10-19-2012, 05:12 PM
If he is one of the best 5 starters and it's hard to believe he wouldn't be he should start with the Twins. .

Plenty of examples that the Twins did not start the best 5 out of Spring Training in recent seasons... 2006: Liriano had to start the season in the pen. 2007: (the year of Sir Sidney and Ramon Ortiz) Garza had to start the season in Rochester to pay his dues; 2008 (the year of Livan). Liriano has to stay in AAA forever so the super 2 clock will not click; 2011: Slowey was much better than Blackburn in ST, Blackburn gets to be in the rotation (because of the scholarship) . 2012: Marquis has an atrocious ST, he is not ready and he still wins a spot. So it is the norm vs the exception in Twinsland....
Liriano did start 2008 with the Twins despite a poor ST. He pitched three games (Twins lost all three) when he "accepted reassignment" to Rochester. Perhaps if he had actually started in Rochester, a "replacement-quality" SP could have salvaged one of those three games and the Twins win the Division?